Fringe theories noticeboard - dealing with all sorts of pseudoscience
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The article Strong gravitational constant appears to be a non-notable fringe theory in which the strong interaction should be treated like gravity. On the notable hand, there are one or two mainstream articles on this (mainly Salam & Sivaram 1993) which got a few citations before interest dried up. On the fringe hand, this vague strong/gravity connection is apparently a component of User:fedosin's previously-AfD'ed cosmology ideas (see Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Infinite_Hierarchical_Nesting_of_Matter). I voted against my own AfD on this article (Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Strong_gravitational_constant) because of the Salam connection, thinking there might be a worthwhile article about that; but Fedosin wants the article to continue being about his own theory. See the AfD page for details on Fedosin's sources. Bm gub (talk) 17:57, 1 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I want to repeat my call for help. Can a third party with WP:FRINGE experience come take a look at this article? Bm gub (talk) 18:25, 7 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've asked the closing admin on the AFD for an explanation, but I think we're headed for DRV on this one. Mangoe (talk) 20:16, 7 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Problem is, I don't think the article is an obvious WP:FRINGE deletion candidate, because there's a stub's worth of notable content. Unfortunately the notable content has the same name as the pet theory of four or five fringe authors, including the COI editor.Bm gub (talk) 19:40, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone have time to review this article? At a glance, it looks like it needs a rewrite from a WP:MEDRS, WP:NPOV, and WP:FRINGE. --Ronz (talk) 18:57, 1 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Request that editors keep a precautionary eye on this one. Petecarney (talk) 18:43, 3 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, please. It may take years for the first results of physical and epigraphic studies to become available. Right now the sourcing is a bunch of stories containing initial comments from archaeologists and other scholars who haven't had much (if any) access to the codices in question and blog postings. • Astynax ^talk 03:46, 4 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Page editors constantly take down POV notice when dispute as not been resolved. No negative information about city of any kind is allowed to remain.

Wrong noticeboard for your complaint, but it's the right noticeboard to note your fringe view that Gainesville is a hotbed of redneck racism and intolerance, which is totally uncited. Horologium (talk) 17:52, 4 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Can someone take a look at the Race and crime article? It seems to me to be attempting to present what is at best fringe science as mainstream. The currant major contributor is asking for others to offer mainstream alternatives to the theory, but personally I think that this would be giving it more credibility than it deserves. It uses the term 'race' in a widely-varying (but never defined) manner, assumes that 'IQ' is a real measure of an objective 'intelligence', and generally lacks any objectivity in its presentation of data. In short, it is pushing a minority POV based on dubious racist biologically-determinist theories, wile taking no account of the overwhelming scientific consensus that such theories are unsupportable, and not based on valid science. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:51, 4 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There is not alternative becuase there is no connection between race and crime. Correlations between socioeconomic status and ethnicity tied into crime yes. This article as it stand an utterly unacceptable Fringe View point not even notable as fringe. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 22:00, 4 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Let differentiate between crime rates and theories. That crime rates differ is not disputed. The theories explaining them are disputed.Miradre (talk) 22:05, 4 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This is classic WP:SYNTH the article is picking very selective in it presention of data to advance a none-existent viewpoint. This is not one of those articles. Race and Crime in the United States works. Race and Crime in the United Kingdom works. The social construction of race cross cultrally does not work. This material duplicates existing material any way. There is no cohesive topic of Crime and Race to merit its own article because no one takes the idea seriously The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 22:15, 4 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There are many studies on worldwide racial crime rates and proposed explanations. Obviously an important and notable topic.Miradre (talk) 22:18, 4 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Correction, no there arent really becuase cohesive idea of "race" outside of America ::it get much more murky. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 22:23, 4 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There are also studies (such as the UK Home Office one which you conveniently ignore) that disprove this theory. If the topic is notable, then provide neutral reliable sources that say so. In any case, a 'notable theory' isn't necessarily a notable scientific one, as this purports to be - it isn't recognised by mainstream science. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:26, 4 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Facapalm meant Euro-america. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 22:53, 4 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'd sure like to see more information on this topic rather than less. Liberals like me aren't afraid of race-crime statistics because we can show how powerful culture is in determining behavior (e.g. crime). Let's just balance the information we don't like with information we do like, and let the best explanation of the race-crime correlation win. I'm confident that it's the liberal, egalitarian, cultural explanation that gets the best coverage in reliable sources. Leadwind (talk) 00:14, 5 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In order to demonstrate that a race-crime correlation exists, you first have to demonstrate the 'race' exists. Since it is clearly a social construct rather than a biological fact (actually, 'crime' is as well), there is no reason to even discuss the topic as science. If one wishes to discuss it as politics, I'd suggest that the best explanations aren't 'liberal, egalitarian, cultural' so much as 'Marxist, egalitarian, economic' ones. The issue is actually largely about the one thing that nobody seems to acknowledge - social class - which in turn largely determines what both 'race' and 'crime' are. You cannot discuss such subjects in a way that assumes any of the correlations are 'objective' in such a context. Hence, any article treating 'race and crime' as a legitimate scientific subject is doomed. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:51, 5 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

One can certainly study statistics for purely social constructs. One example being income and occupations. No one would argue that these concepts are biologically real. But it is still possibly to study differences in income for different occupations. So even if race as concept was rejected as a biologically reality, it would still be possible to discuss crime differences for different races, just as one can for other groups, and have an article on this. Let us also note that the topic is discussed here: Miradre (talk) 03:06, 5 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We could start by writing the lead based on reliable sources rather than no sources as at present. Then we could establish whether this is a scientific or fringe view. TFD (talk) 03:28, 5 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Just saw WP:ANI#Apparent personal attacks at British National Party talk page - this looks relevant to a couple of fringe articles on British Israelism and Young Earth Creationism]]. Dougweller (talk) 11:41, 5 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

See Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2011 April 4#Category:Paranormal places. This category is very old. I think it's a safe bet that the conclusion will result in retention of the category but there might be reason to argue for a les credulous name. Mangoe (talk) 12:44, 5 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've found a lot of articles in that category are entirely cited to unreliable sources such as Weird NJ. Example: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Clinton Road (New Jersey) (it seems this article was created by an admin who doesn't believe in the WP:NPA policy. - LuckyLouie (talk) 13:03, 5 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Somatosensory Rehabilitation of Pain (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

This article has just been brought to my attention -- can't work out if it's completely off-the-wall, or simply impenetrably written -- though discussion in the article body, about proposals made in the French Wikipedia, aren't exactly promising. Enjoy! Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 17:30, 5 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure about this one. Searching in JSTOR is not promising; GBooks returns a few hits. At the very least it probably should be Somatosensory rehabilitation if it is retained. Mangoe (talk) 20:39, 5 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is legitimate medical stuff relating to a relatively new method for treatment of neuropathic pain, but the article was written by somebody whose native language is French, and the rendering into English is at the Google-Translate level. Looie496 (talk) 23:12, 5 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

After looking at the section above on the article on race & crime, I had a look at the US version of the article, and it badly needs work. For example, this section consists entirely of some dubious statistics sourced to a publication of the New Century Foundation ("dedicated to the ideal of the United States as a white European nation"). The New Century Foundation publication is also repeatedly used as a source in other sections. The article also gives fringe views like this one WP:UNDUE weight. These are just a couple of glaringly obvious problems I noticed from glancing at the article; there are likely to be many other problems that need work. Thanks, CordeliaNaismith (talk) 13:56, 7 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it does look bad. New Century Foundation is an advocacy group so should not be used in this article. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:11, 7 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I just went by and quickly removed the bits that had been sourced to the New Century Foundation pub. The article is still badly in need of work. Among other things, this section, this section, and this section sound like really flaky theories...CordeliaNaismith (talk) 22:41, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The report, from the New Century Foundation, as a source have been removed from the article. Please explain why. Reports from advocacy groups are not prohibited. It certainly passes a relevancy and notability criteria since it is widely cited in this area. The statistics of the report are from official statistics and reports in the scientific literature. If there is disagreement with a figure, then an opposing view should be stated with a source. Just attacking the author and not the content is a not valid ad hominem attack. As such, I propose the report should be added back. Not as WP:Truth but as notable view in this area.Miradre (talk) 22:45, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The source was not used to present a white supremacist view but to source facts. The report is obviously not a reliable source for facts since it is published by a group thatr has a vested political interest in making those facts appear in a particular way. This is really very basic.·Maunus·ƛ· 00:02, 9 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The views of political advocacy groups are of course not prohibited in WP. As a notable view in this area it should be included. Making it clear where the report are citing official statistics and scientific studies and where it argues for a policy. The New Century Foundation considers Asians to have higher inteligence than whites and welcomes Jews so it certainly does not fit any standard stereotype of white supremacism or neo-nazism.Miradre (talk) 00:09, 9 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The Asian/Jew argument is really bad - on par with the classic "Im not a racist many of my friends are Jews/black". First you'd have to argue that the view is notable, as anything other than a fringe POV. ·Maunus·ƛ· 00:22, 9 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

How is for example a figure regarding the risk of being in prison, based on official statistics, a fringe view? Miradre (talk) 00:36, 9 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If the statistics are 'official', find them in a mainstream source. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:49, 9 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The raw numbers are for not obvious, or maybe for obvious, reasons difficult to interpret. They are not adjusted for the population sizes of different groups, and clump whites and Hispanics together, and so on. What the report does in this regard is simply to make the numbers clearer. Only the US seems to present to the public such difficult to understand crime figures. All other countries I have looked at report crime rates so that they can be understood easily, like crimes/year/100,000 people in a group.Miradre (talk) 01:58, 9 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So you don't want to present the official statistics, but instead the New Century Foundation's interpretation of them? Do you have any evidence to suggest that they are qualified to make such interpretations of "difficult to understand crime figures"? Do you have evidence that they do this in a way that ensures an accurate presentation of the data, rather than in a way that suits their 'advocacy'? AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:10, 9 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Lots of special interest groups, think-thanks, and similar organizations include research in their reports. That is not disallowed in Wikipedia. The articles contain numerous such reports. The attribution should have been clearer but otherwise I see no reason for excluding this view.Miradre (talk) 02:21, 9 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, lots of special interest groups do research. Whether this research is of sufficient credibility to use in an article comes down to edit-page consensus, and failing that there is WP:RSN and other appropriate sections of Wikipedia. That you see no reason to include research that supports the POV you are clearly pushing is neither here nor there. This isn't an advocacy website. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:50, 9 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Neither should views be excluded per WP:NPOV. If you are scientifically right, would it not be better to show that the report is wrong instead of simply excluding is? Miradre (talk) 02:57, 9 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This is a contentious area so sources should be of good quality, i.e. peer reviewed academic or similar. Itsmejudith (talk) 13:45, 9 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. Miradre, there is no requirement to provide scientific refutations of the fringe arguments of random racist websites. That you continue to support such self-evidently biased sources says little for any claims you once had to be editing in a neutral manner. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:51, 9 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Consider the case closed. I have already started adding other sources for the data and arguments that should be less susceptible to being rejected simply because who the author is. I will no longer argue for this source.Miradre (talk) 16:54, 9 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

People will be keeping close watch on it, at least I'm sure Cordelia and Andy will although I will be on wikibreak. Too much prominence to Jensen's views is an issue. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:33, 9 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Another major problem with the article, it seems to me, is its very narrow focus. There are a lot of other very important topics that one might expect to find covered in an article on Race and crime in the United States; a historical perspective on the topic is completely missing for example. (Some relevant topics missing from the article include: People v. Hall, slave codes, lynchings, segregation, the American mafia, and undoubtedly many others). Also, a number of the sections in the current article still present egregiously fringe theories. I'm also going to be mostly wikibreaking, so I hope that there will be some more eyes on this article...CordeliaNaismith (talk) 23:21, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Several IPs editing this today adding either copyvio videos showing what they think are earthquake lights (but not mentioned in the video) or blogs, etc. Dougweller (talk) 16:09, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

POV article written as though he was genuine. Dougweller (talk) 14:53, 9 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've tagged it as lacking neutrality/balance, but frankly I have doubts that Chapman meets WP:N in any case. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:46, 9 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Miradre (talk · contribs) is working very hard to make it look like the racist theories of J. Philippe Rushton as laid out in his self-published Race, Evolution and Behavior have scholarly currency outside of the small group of scholars who have received funding from the Pioneer Fund for which Rushton is president. Miradre is currently pushing a source written by a graduate student in criminology who describes evidence in favor of the theory as "mixed" when researchers with expertise in the area have in fact unanimously rejected it as a prime example of scientific racism and pseudo science. This needs immediate attention by editors willing to read abit about the backgrund of Rushton and the reception of his theories about human evolution by scholars who actually know about evolution. The articles affected are Race and crime, Race and crime in the US and Race, Evolution and Behavior. This is egregious pov pushing that needs to be kept in check.·Maunus·ƛ· 02:26, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure what you have against the Encyclopedia. Here are the lead editors: [1][2] Certainly not a proven theory, and very controversial, but there are several peer-reviewed articles supporting the theory. No, not all of the researchers are connected to Pioneer Fund.Miradre (talk) 02:29, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Certainly not a proven theory, and very controversial..." It sounds like you agree that this is a fringe theory. aprock (talk) 03:15, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I would say the same regarding the theory that racial differences in IQ are partly genetic. This does not preclude that this the the most common theory among IQ researchers when they are asked anonymously.Miradre (talk) 03:24, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Has there been any anonynmous surveys of whether people agree with Rushton? No? Then this is a red herring. It is possible thta a majority of astronomers secretly believe the moon is made of green cheese, but untill they say so in public it remains a fringe view.·Maunus·ƛ· 12:27, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Can you substantiate this claim, Miradre? --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 05:14, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Look here Race,_Evolution,_and_Behavior#Later_favorable_studies. Many peer-reviewed studies have found support for various aspects of the theory. Even for the studies where Rushton is the lead author, there are usually several other different co-authors, so there is a rather large group of people of who have researched and found support for the theory.Miradre (talk) 05:19, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for pointing editors to a part of the article on Rushton's book that you have selectively written or rewritten from your own point of view. [3] Mathsci (talk) 05:42, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure what your point is, I added to the criticisms sections also...[4].Miradre (talk) 05:51, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No, Miradre, try to focus. I'm talking about the claim you made here on this noticeboard that, racial differences in IQ being partly genetic is "the most common theory among IQ researchers when they are asked anonymously." The link you posted says nothing about that. Do you have any facts to substantiate your claim that this is the most common theory. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 05:54, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The_IQ_Controversy,_the_Media_and_Public_Policy_(book)#Synopsis.Miradre (talk) 05:57, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A survey from 1984? Mathsci (talk) 05:59, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Only one ever done. My point is not that this proves what the scientific consensus is currently. What is shows is that the partially genetic theory is not fringe.Miradre (talk) 06:01, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The study you link to refutes your claim. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 06:07, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

How? " "Which of the following best characterizes your opinion of the heritability of black-white differences in IQ?" Amongst the 661 returned questionnaires, 14% declined to answer the question, 24% voted that there was insufficient evidence to give an answer, 1% voted that the gap was "due entirely to genetic variation", 15% voted that it "due entirely to environmental variation" and 45% voted that it was a "product of genetic and environmental variation"Miradre (talk) 06:09, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So later university textbooks on this subject by experts are irrelevant in your view? They somehow do not represent the mainstream? Mathsci (talk) 06:17, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What textbooks? There is no consensus in this area but an ongoing debate regarding the role of genetics.Miradre (talk) 06:19, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The textbooks are in the references of many of the articles that you have been editing, and I'm sure you must have noticed the authors—Loughlin, Mackintosh, Flynn, Sternberg, Jencks, etc Mathsci (talk) 06:27, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You are talking about articles and books, not textbooks. There are as many such articles and books by hereditarians.Miradre (talk) 06:29, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Mackintosh's book is a textbook, "Human intelligence"; the "Handbook of intelligence" is an encyclopedia. Your responses seem just to illustrate Maunus' point. Anyway Newyorkbrad is going to propose a motion on the Requests for clarification page which could clear all of this up. Cheers, Mathsci (talk) 06:34, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure what your point is. Even Sternberg and Mackintosh agree there is controversy and differing opinions on this.Miradre (talk) 06:41, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So we now have differing opinions which are controversial. It seems that such ideas when held up as explanatory theories might well be considered WP:FRINGE. aprock (talk) 06:45, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Obviously if you are talking with a proponent he/she will think his theory is the right one. Again, the only poll done found that the most common theory among IQ researchers were the paritally genetic one.Miradre (talk) 06:47, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Miradre is misrepresenting the sources. Mathsci (talk) 06:48, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No.Miradre (talk) 06:52, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm just not seeing how a single question from a survey lends substantial insight into a book published 11 years later. aprock (talk) 06:54, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

One author, one view, one researcher. A survey, many views. many researchers. The last give a better understanding of the what it more common view in the field.Miradre (talk) 06:56, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Loughlin and Mackintosh wrote that there is insufficient evidence to make any claim about genetics. Their work is published by Oxford University Press and Cambridge University Press. The second abridged edition of Rushton's book was self-published and 50 pages long. The survey you mention was originally just a short paper of less than 10 pages. On wikipedia editors are asked to be very careful about evaluating sources. That's why we have WP:RS, WP:V and WP:UNDUE. Mathsci (talk) 07:01, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You are confusing two things here. Rushton's r/K theory and the theory that IQ is partially genetic. Regarding the first, again see Race,_Evolution,_and_Behavior#Later_favorable_studies. Regarding the second, see for example this:[5][6] Miradre (talk) 07:05, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Confused or not, my own feeling at the moment is that it is best to wait for Newyorkbrad and other arbitrators to formulate a motion that clarifies discretionary sanctions, including topic bans. That would apply in particular to WP:ARBR&I. Cheers, Mathsci (talk) 07:13, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The lead of this article appears to be some of the worst WP:WEASEL I've seen in some time, in a rather bald attempt to mitigate the widespread condemnation of the topic's claims. This does not appear to be WP:DUE and therefore is not WP:NPOV. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 06:39, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Again see Race,_Evolution,_and_Behavior#Later_favorable_studies. Consdiering all the authors there are a considerable group of researchers agreeing with the theory.Miradre (talk) 06:43, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That section does not demonstrate "a considerable group of researchers agreeing with the theory" -- it shows that Rushton and his collaborators, Figueredo (in conjunction with assorted collaborators) & a single paper paper by Kanazawa agrees with the theory. "considerable"? I don't think so. In any case this is utterly irrelevant to the WP:WEASEL in the lead -- which does not discuss these "Later favorable studies". Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 07:15, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You forget some lead names. Anyhow, if one count all the researchers who have written these papers, not just the lead name, you get a considerable group who agrees with Rushton in peer-reviewed papers. But I agree, the lead should be changed to mention the favorable research, it seems unduly biased by only mentioning criticism against the book.Miradre (talk) 07:21, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Lets look at the last names of the researchers who have written peer-reviewed papers agreeing with the theory:

• Kanazawa *Templer *Veselka *Schermer *Petrides *Cherkas *Spector *Vernon *Erdle *Irwing *Booth *Bons *Ando *Hur *Barbaranelli *Figueredo *Vasquez *Brumbach *Schneider *Sefcek *Tal *Hill *Wenner *Kirsner *Jacobs *Charles *Egan *Voracek *Linden *Scholte *Cillessen *Nijenhuis *Segers *Amigó *Caselles *Micó *Jensen *Lynn *Črovović

Around 39 researchers, 11 lead authors. Hardly fringe.Miradre (talk) 07:29, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's done by counting, is it? Mathsci (talk) 07:33, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A high count certainly helps.Miradre (talk) 07:36, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Have you counted how many have rejected it as nonsensical pseudoscience?

But that is WP:OR. It is not possible to evaluate primary sources and that is not how wikipedia is edited. Please read this. Wikipedia:ARBR&I#Correct use of sources. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 07:45, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Fringe theories: "One important bellwether for determining the notability and level of acceptance of fringe ideas related to science, history or other academic pursuits is the presence or absence of peer reviewed research on the subject." Presence amply demonstrated.Miradre (talk) 07:54, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately this article falls under far more stringent rules than other wikipedia articles, because of the ArbCom case. You have been given an official notification of those special rules, which include in particular WP:ARBR&I#Single purpose accounts. Mathsci (talk) 08:00, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have already replied regarding SPA at the AE case. Since you are now diverting to other issues, I take it that you are no longer wish to argue that this is a fringe theory?Miradre (talk) 08:04, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The purpose of this thread is not to establish whether a theory is fringe or not. Maunus' initial statement seems correct on all points. Mathsci (talk) 08:08, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well, this is the Fringe theories noticeboard. If we have concluded that the theory is not fringe the maybe we should discuss other matters elsewhere?Miradre (talk) 08:15, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We have not so concluded, so your point (like much of the rest of what you have said here) is irrelevant. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 08:19, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

And how many of those 25 are prominent in their own right? I could put together larger numbers, and more prominent names, supporting all sorts of lunacy. And as NONE OF THIS IS CITED IN THE LEAD IT IS STILL UTTERLY IRRELEVANT TO MY ORIGINAL POINT! Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 07:58, 11 April 2011 (UTC)Hrafn, please don't shout :) Mathsci (talk) 08:02, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

See my reply immediately above. But I agree the lead should be changed. It should also mention these supporting studies.Miradre (talk) 08:01, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Miradre appears to be proposing tendentious edits to an article covered directly by WP:ARBR&I, breaking several of the principles laid down by ArbCom. Mathsci (talk) 08:06, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Which principles?Miradre (talk) 08:09, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:ARBR&I#Correct use of sources. Please read it carefully as you appear not to be using primary sources carefully or, as recommended, through a secondary source. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 08:14, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have already mentioned one secondary source. Please read my first reply in this thread.Miradre (talk) 08:18, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You are the editor that has included statements about these racent papers, primary sources, in the article, making the evaluation yourself. You need that evaluation to be made by a secondary source. Here is the principle of ArbCom in full: Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources. Primary sources are permitted if used carefully. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than to original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors. The last sentence says that what you are attempting to do at the moment cannot be done on wikipedia by a wikipedia editor. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 08:24, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am not making any "interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources" in the article. I just cite what they say. Now, regarding if it is a fringe theory, look at the encyclopedia, if you want a secondary source.Miradre (talk) 08:31, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia editors are not in a position to "cite what they say". That is an assessment, because in creating a summary, or even selecting one sentence, a wikipedia editor is making a subjective choice. That is why secondary sources are required, particularly in a controversial area. Mathsci (talk) 08:38, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Primary sources are not disallowed according to your own quote. By the way, I hope that if you are consistent you are also arguing for removing all primary criticisms of Rushton.Miradre (talk) 08:46, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)If you ignore my original point while wittering on and on and on about the IRRELEVANT Race,_Evolution,_and_Behavior#Later_favorable_studies, then I WILL SHOUT AT YOU! I discussed problems in the lead, you replied "Again see Race,_Evolution,_and_Behavior#Later_favorable_studies." I may as well "see" the Matrix trilogy for all the relevance it has to my point. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 08:12, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Question: how many of Miradre's much ballyhooed "25" even have PhDs (let alone in relevant subjects)? Hill doesn't. How many of them are, like Hill, are just grad students performing research under the direction of others? Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 08:15, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• (edit conflict) Refining my point, the real issue is not how many authors have got their names attached to papers supporting Rushton but how many established scholars in the field of psychology find merit in his work? Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 08:30, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Actually it is 33 researchers at moment. I think the point of the theory not being a fringe theory is demonstrated. Now, regarding the lead, do you have a suggestion for how it can be restated? Miradre (talk) 08:28, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

And how many of those 33 (or whatever other number) are merely grad students doing what their prof told them to do? I would remove the weasel-word "although", the cherry-picked Knudson fragment and the parading of honors in attempting to make him look respectable -- particularly the Guggenheim fellowship (as Knudson points out that Rushton's application for it omitted all mention of his work on racialism). I would suggest attempting to find reliable (preferably authoritative) secondary sources that weigh the balance between Rushton's detractors and defenders. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 08:35, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ah. I see. We are misunderstanding one another. I thought we are talking about his theories since this is the fringe theory noticeboard. In particular the article on the book on the rK theory. But you are talking about the article about him. Should not this be in the WP:BLPN noticeboard?Miradre (talk) 08:41, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Of course this is about the article on him! See the title of this thread -- which explicitly links to that article. The use of WP:WEASEL-wording in the lead of that article in order to make him and his WP:FRINGE claims look more respectable is fully within the brief of this forum. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 08:48, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but the text states "The articles affected are Race and crime, Race and crime in the US and Race, Evolution and Behavior." I have never been involved in the Rushton Article but in the others together with Maunus who created this thread. I think we should definitely mention the many others reserachers supporting his rK theory. But the rK theory is only one part of Rushton's research. Another aspect is IQ research. Another is ethnic nespotism. Neither of these are fringe theories so I think this should fall under WP:BLPN. Miradre (talk) 08:58, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: and I would note that Miradre has not even attempted to address my question about her "25" "33" (or whatever). Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 08:53, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have. "I think the point of the theory not being a fringe theory is demonstrated." But I can clarify. WP:FRINGE states "One important bellwether for determining the notability and level of acceptance of fringe ideas related to science, history or other academic pursuits is the presence or absence of peer reviewed research on the subject." and "Articles about fringe theories sourced solely from a single primary source (even when it is peer reviewed) may be excluded from Wikipedia on notability grounds." The many sources demonstrates that this does not apply. Regardless of if not all of the researchers are PhD.Miradre (talk) 08:57, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No you had not! Your statement was an invalid conclusion based upon the very same faulty argument that my question was challenging -- your claim that your "25" "33" (or whatever) in some was demonstrates that Rushton's claims are not WP:FRINGE, when a number of those named were (i) not independent (as they were working under the direction of others) & (ii) in any case not sufficiently well-qualified to act as independent sources of confirmation. What you have is a small number of papers, most of which seem to be centered around Figueredo or Rushton himself -- that is very thin evidence of respectability. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 09:11, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

And at least some of those papers were published in Personality and Individual Differences, whose peer review process Knudson(1991) impugns. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 09:16, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You are talking about Rushton now and not the rK theory now? Rushton has done research in several other areas that are definitely not fringe like IQ. Regarding rK theory, the numbers are not small. There are 500 citations in Google scholar for the book. 70 for "general factor of personality" and "Rushton" which is the more specific personality theory which has only been in existence since 2008.Miradre (talk) 09:21, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am talking about your statement "Around 33 researchers. Hardly fringe." -- as should be blindingly obvious (and which argument you still have failed to adequately defend). Mere citation does not indicate endorsement, so your "500 citations" argument is likewise invalid. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 09:30, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Both critical and supporting scientific sources indicate notability if nothing else. I am certainly not trying to claim that the theory is the mainstream consensus. Only that is not a personal, fringe theory restricted to Rushton. The many papers and researchers I have cited, and there are others that could be added, indicate that it is a theory that is taken seriously but certainly not proved. I hope we can agree on this? Miradre (talk) 09:35, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Except that this is WP:FTN, not WP:N/N -- so your point is irrelevant (YET AGAIN). "not personal" ≠ not WP:FRINGE, by a long shot. You have not even come close to meeting the burden of proof of "a theory that is taken seriously but certainly not proved". All you have is a small number of papers, published by a small circle of lead-researchers, some of them in a questionable journal. That leaves us on the WP:FRINGE. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 09:42, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I find it somewhat strange that you summarily reject peer-reviewed papers by many different researchers as fringe. I count 8 different lead authors at the moment.Miradre (talk) 09:50, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I will stop for now at 11 lead researchers and a total of 39 researchers who have found support for the theory in 26 peer-reviewed studies. See Race, Evolution, and_Behavior#Later favorable studies. I hope that this, as well as the Encyclopedia mentioned in my first post in this thread, should be enough.Miradre (talk) 11:18, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This is simply WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 11:25, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

According to exactly what part of WP:FRINGE is the theory a fringe theory? The text states that a single peer-reviewed source may not be enough. As I have pointed out there are many more.Miradre (talk) 11:32, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• The hereditary position is not fringe. Rushton's theory about Blacks being sex hungry, criminal morons because of different evolutionary trajectories from whites is. ·Maunus·ƛ· 11:55, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree on the partially-genetic theory for racial IQ differences. Regarding Rushton's theory, why is it fringe (apart from the theory being emotionally unpleasant and Wikipedia:I just don't like it)?Miradre (talk) 12:01, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am not an expert in this field, but based upon what I've read to date, it is fringe because (i) it takes a very superficial and mutable evolutionary feature (skin colour), and attempts to show that they explain differences in far deeper and more complex features (such as intelligence) & (ii) because African genetics is far more heterogeneous than European, rendering any comparison largely meaningless. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 12:18, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

On my first point, it is no more reasonable than to test that eye color is related to intelligence -- and probably about as likely to result in a false positive. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 12:25, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Also, you are misrepresenting the theory. It talks about averages group difference. Furthermore, personality differences are not necessarily bad. For example, excessive conformity to others may prevent creativity and new ideas. Aggressiveness may often be good for getting things done. And so on.Miradre (talk) 12:09, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Because it has been uniformly rejected by the scientific community as junk science motivated by racism. And oh, so he only say that blacks are on average more stupid, more sexhungry and more prone to crime. Thats a lot better...·Maunus·ƛ· 12:14, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Stating that it is uniformly rejected is simply false. At moment the article have 26 peer-reviewed studies by 11 lead researchers and a total of 39 researchers who have found support for the theory. See Race, Evolution, and_Behavior#Later favorable studies. As well as the Encyclopedia mentioned in my first post in this thread.Miradre (talk) 12:18, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Lets dwell on this for a second and see whether fringe science bells ring: Rushton has been reprimanded by his own university for requiring students to submit measurements of their penis size and ejaculation length as required part of coursework... His science has been called "This is an insidious attempt to legitimize Rushton’s racist propaganda and is tantamount to publishing ads for white supremacy and the neo-Nazi party. If you have any question about the validity of the “science” of Rushton’s trash you should read any one of his articles and the many rebuttals by ashamed scientists" by the editor of American Anthropologist, an Evolutionary anthropologist when Rushton tried to advertise his book there. His own dean has said that by publishing the book has "lost his scientific credibility", members of his own department at UWO have published denouncements of his scientific methods, his own publisher backed out and had the remaining copies of the book destroyed after Rushton mailed it to every anthropologiost in America...fringe?·Maunus·ƛ· 12:22, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ad hominem attacks are not relevant for validity of research. Let me just say they are misrepresentations, especially your biased description. Rushton have many times written that Jews are the group with highest IQ so I find the claims of neo-Nazi particularly weird. Anthropologists do not decide truth in all branches of science. As an anthropology student yourself you should know that not all US anthropologists agree that races do not exist. Outside the US even more so.Miradre (talk) 12:35, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

He probably also has many black friends.·Maunus·ƛ· 12:46, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure what this had to do with his research... Are you really sure that the opponents of Rushton have the moral high ground? Lets look at IQ. If there are average genetic IQ differences, then the groups with a lower average will have increasing trouble functioning in the complex world of today. Unemployment, crime, drug use, and so on will be what happens to many. This problem is hard to fix so long there is a denial of what causes it. Those with lower IQ needs help.Miradre (talk) 12:54, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the problem is denial of the actual cause of the IQ gap, but that doesn't matter here.·Maunus·ƛ· 12:58, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Maunus has done various mass deletions and insertions of unsourced materials and material not in the sources so the list of studies is not complete.[7] See the old list before Maunus's deletions for all the studies.Miradre (talk) 13:27, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Dating Creation (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

This article has accumulated quite a bit of material based upon WP:FRINGE, WP:SELFPUB and/or very-outdated sources (some old, but quite a bit newly introduced). I've attempted to prune much of it out, but further scrutiny may be desirable. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 06:06, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

User:Anglo Pyramidologist (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) is back in action on this article, restoring citations to Helene Blavatsky, the Christian YEC journal Creation (for Arabic creation dates), a book published in 1830 (employed as a secondary source), the self-published webpage of Barry Setterfield, and a Wiki, among others. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 10:04, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

-All lies above, from a biased evolutionist who is deleting any material linked to creationism or christianity. For starters the YEC journal quoted, was itself quoting Robert Young Concordance, a source which has been ACCEPTED as valid and not-biased on the Young Earth Creationism page. Also note, it was virtually me who has spend hours of my own time researching and i put up the ancient greek and roman, egyptian, sumerian, septuagint, masoretic etc dates to the dating creation article. All was fine and it was left up untouched until Harafn (who is clearly biased against creation) started stalking me (leaving abuse on my page) and secondly reverting all my edits. Anglo Pyramidologist (talk) 14:30, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]