• Kleinpecan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Bill Williams (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

• Talk:The Wall Street Journal §§ Should editorial opinions be posted in the lede summary., WSJ's Reputation, and Scrubbing peer-reviewed studies from body

As of 16:36, 1 December 2021, the amount of comments by each user in the discussions is as follows (excluding users with less than 10 comments):

The fact that Bill Williams has written more comments than the next two editors combined, I think, speaks for itself.

His arguments can be divided into two types. Those were repeatedly rejected by other editors, yet he continues to repeat them (WP:IDHT). Note how he repeatedly uses phrases like once again and its synonyms:

There is also this personal attack:

• 19:28, 24 November: "Maybe learn how to read as well next time"

I am not the first person to notice Bill Williams's bludgeoning:

• Maybe you could also have a look at WP:IDHT. After you have grasped all that, then you should read the reasoning responding to your "decade-old" fluff and ponder on whether it is wise to repeat your already-refuted "decade-old" fluff.
  — User:Hob Gadling 08:12, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

• You continue to badger and bludgeon.
  — User:Soibangla 23:26, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

• Please stop bludgeoning this RfC with straight-up lies. Your behavior is WP:TENDENTIOUS.
  — User:Snooganssnoogans 00:40, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

There seems to be a pattern: in the previous RfC (Talk:The Wall Street Journal/Archive 5 § RfC on Editorial Board Scientific Claims in the Lead), for example, he has written 27 comments—more than Hob Gadling (17) and Springee (7) combined. The same is true for Talk:Paul Gosar: 36 comments by Bill Williams, 22 by Soibangla, 6 by Sarysa, 4 by WakandaQT and 4 by Pokelova. Kleinpecan (talk) 21:08, 1 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: Bill Williams has been shown WP:IDHT a couple of times on the Wall Street talk page. Panini!^🥪 21:14, 1 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am the IP editor who posted several suggested changes on that page, and interacted with Bill Williams a few times. I do have to point out that Bill Williams has acted in a way that suggests a desire to follow rules and improve the page, having directed me to participate in the RfC instead of trying to change it while the RfC was ongoing, even though my proposed changes didn't pertain specifically to the topic of the RfC. See: [old talk page]. There is definitely "bludgeoning" behavior on that page by editors who think a consensus means a majority vote, Bill Williams definitely seems to be a prolific commenter there, and does seem to have "bludgeoned", but it seems to have inspired an uncivil backlash. As someone who seems to have made a suggestion that was seriously entertained by editors with varying views, I'd like to plead for civility and humility on that page. I don't think anyone there is downright malicious, but the recent devolvement into incivility eliminates the chance of turning what I thought was a myopic discussion into a productive one--it's antiproductive. "Consensus by runaway toxicity" may be a thing, but there is no way the end result is a quality encyclopedia. Having an agenda on here beyond making knowledge accessible as a sort of community service is a joke. People who change the world don't edit Wikipedia; have some perspective. 2600:1012:B00B:759D:6C35:8E78:A042:D766 (talk) 21:43, 1 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe if you guys actually gave me a single answer to my question, AKA one recent reliable source that backs up your claims that the editorial board promotes pseudoscience on asbestos, pesticides, second hand smoke, ozone, or acid rain instead of decades old random op-eds that nobody else cares about besides you, I wouldn't have to repeat myself every time. Also consider how more editors have agreed with my position than yours, and then come back to me about "bludgeoning." The editors you mention have repeatedly personally attacked me, with just a few examples below of them attempting to scream through the screen at me, saying I am a lair, and that I am just on Wikipedia to spread propaganda:

They did this on multiple other occasions even though they simply personally disagreed, and I misread what one person said, while another misread what I said, and yet that is how they responded to me. The IDHT link states "Sometimes, editors perpetuate disputes by sticking to an allegation or viewpoint long after the consensus of the community has decided that moving on to other topics would be more productive" which is false when over half the editors agree with me and use actual logic instead of putting undue claims in the lead of an important article. "Those were repeatedly rejected by other editors" lacks context when over half the editors in the RfC agreed with my logic and the only people who rejected it were those who also repeated the exact same things that they already believed. Bill Williams 00:04, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Maybe if you guys actually gave me a single answer to my question ..."—see WP:BADGER.

I like the way you write "over half the editors agree with me and use actual logic". Of course everyone who disagrees with you is a rambling madman, and you are the sole bearer of Truth, Logic and Rationality.

"I have not done so to them a single time"—what is Special:Diff/1056991697, then, if not a blatant personal attack? Kleinpecan (talk) 00:21, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I also see that you have removed my notification of you about this discussion with the edit summary "I'd prefer you stay personally attacking me on the WSJ article than editing my talk page". Surely you understand that baseless accusations of personal attacks are themselves a personal attack? Kleinpecan (talk) 00:35, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

My talk page, so I can remove whatever I want that is in the way of future important messages, and clearly I was personally attacked by someone who accused me of being someone who I was not, because they misread, so I told them to read better. Bill Williams 01:04, 3 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• I'm somewhat involved here, but I would just point out Bill Williams (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been blocked four times since 2019 and was at one time indeffed for sockpuppetry. Calidum 00:43, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know the reason for the four blocks, but the fact that you bring up sockpuppetry, which is irrelevant to this topic, makes me think of WP:ASPERSIONS. I'd rather not bring up recent high profile criminal trials as an analogy, but since the topic at hand is the WSJ, it would be thematically appropriate to say, "past guilt does not guarantee future guilt". I'd say passions can be more productively directed elsewhere: to those who feel the lede attacks their sentimentality toward the journal, buy a subscription to show your support. To those who despise the editorial board, get a NYT subscription. And everyone, please chill out. If everyone involved in this dispute went out for beers, despite the boost of ethanol, I think everyone would quickly find each other equally awkward, petty, and insufferable--proving there is a common humanity that pervades the entire Wikipedia community, no matter how heated the discussions here appear to be at times. 2600:1012:B006:D547:F97D:6915:5154:1D15 (talk) 04:19, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's ironic that an IP account with no prior edits comes here of all places to complain about another user mentioning sock puppetry. Speaking of which, the editor who initiated the RFC in question Stallion55347 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) created their account in February but only began editing last month. The vast majority of their contributions since then have been to the WSJ article and its talk page. Calidum 14:45, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

IP editor discrimination is the final unaddressed civil rights frontier in this country, but I can't condone "bludgeoning" behavior, especially if done by means of "sockpuppetry". I posted earlier here, apologies for not disclosing, I have a dynamic IP. In hindsight, there were a lot of "red" usernames participating there, which could be indicative of tomfoolery, but it seemed disorganized. What a bummer if it turns out there was a cabal inflating the commentary there. If the WSJ editorial board is living rent free in some editors' heads, the lede of the wikipedia article sure does live rent free in a bunch of other editors' heads...heh heh. I'll wait for the dust to settle and open a new RfC with my proposed change (that involves just better summarizing per WP:LEAD). 2600:1012:B048:16A5:88F1:D553:2FCE:6875 (talk) 15:33, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In Soviet Wikipedia, rights civil you! (You specifically, IP.) El_C 17:11, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Bludgeoning? Questionable in regard to the RfC. Perhaps the number of responses is leaning that direction, but I don't think it's there yet. But in the other two threads? That claim is more dubious, especially regarding Scrubbing peer-reviewed studies from body in which Bill is the subject of the thread. Multiple editors there are discussing the matter with Bill, so naturally, he is going to respond more often than any single editor. --GoneIn60 (talk) 03:04, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• I'm involved in the article discussion and my views with regards to the RfC are similar to BW's. I don't think BW is going to change the minds of any of the editors with whom they are arguing. In terms of uncivil or antagonistic comments, I think the other side has had more than their share and that level of hostility likely dissuades input from editors who might otherwise weigh in on the topic. I've disengaged from the discussion for exactly that reason. To me it looks a bit like BW is suffering from a pile on case. As a group those who oppose BW's POV have made a number of rude or otherwise divisive comments. Individually none of those editors has crossed any lines but the cumulative effect is hostile to those who might offer disagreement. It's worth noting the !vote consensus seems to be about evenly split so this isn't a case of a single editor off in left field. Where to from here? I would suggest BW slow down and not bother trying to convince the editors in question. I think the several of the editors on the other side should assume good faith and, more critically, civility even if they are frustrated (for example accusing editors of lying is never a good talk page plan). All should relax and this ANI should be closed. Springee (talk) 03:31, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Springee I realize that and apologize to the editors who have accused me of disruptive editing, but as you stated, the reason I responded is because slightly over half the editors in the RfC agreed with me, and I was attempting to convince those who disagreed using the same logic of those who agreed, but those who disagreed repeatedly accused me of being disruptive, propaganda spreading, and lying just to name a few, so I felt a need to respond to explain and defend myself. Going forward if I have to restate my claim like this to the point where they clearly think it is disruptive, I will refrain from continuing any further. Bill Williams 04:05, 3 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Doesn't Bill Williams have a topic ban from American politics? Should he be participating in a RFC about a conservative newspaper's handing of a major US political football (global warming) at all? - MrOllie (talk) 15:56, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think that would be a stretch given in this case. The extensive RfC discussion hasn't touched on the political aspects of the topic. Springee (talk) 16:05, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I was not aware that he was topic banned from AP. If he is, this is a topic ban violation in my view. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 16:34, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  Does Bill Williams have a topic ban from AP? Firefangledfeathers 16:38, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  There's a three month block in his log for violating a topic ban last year, but I can't find it in the enforcement log. MrOllie (talk) 16:53, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  His last block was also for "Violation of...talk page restriction (one post per day) placed by El C," which seems relevant here. I do not know, however, whether that restriction is still in place. Maybe @El C: would know? Calidum 16:57, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  That sanction was rescinded in Feb. El_C 17:11, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  Gracias. Calidum 17:56, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  Disclosure: I watch Bill's talk page which is how I found this discussion.
  I mean I wouldn't have recommended BW dive into such a controversial topic area, but he's not disallowed from doing so. I would like to echo 2600:1012 in saying that a calming of tensions all around would generally be appreciated. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 19:16, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• I'm not getting involved in the discussion, but I see no topic ban at Wikipedia:Arbitration enforcement log where it should have been logged. Doug Weller talk 16:47, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• I think the complaint may be poorly framed, though I am sure it is filed in good faith. Simply counting edits is not a good way to analyze a discussion. Please show diffs with three examples of bad behavior, the worst three. That's a good way to start the discussion. Jehochman ^Talk 16:16, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Close and remind everyone to be civil. Plenty of rudeness abounds in the threads and others could have diffs cherry-picked to show they are not acting in a collegial manner with dismissive and borderline personal attacks. Slywriter (talk) 21:29, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment I have no enjoyment in arguing, in fact quite the opposite; all I wish to do is improve the articles I edit. I edit things I come across, and in fact I wish that I did not have to engage in these discussions, and wish to edit more demographics for example (the third largest state, 20 million people, has an article with outdated demographic information, which shows how far off many demographic sections are on Wikipedia). There are plenty of other topics I wish to edit, but I am stuck responding to editors who bring up the same arguments while I bring up the same arguments as well. Every one of my opponents did this yet none of them want to mention their own behavior. Considering they chose to single out the WSJ of all newspapers in existence, that is why I am editing the talk page. I have no interest in defending it, just representing claims as stated regularly in reliable sources, not by one or two a decade ago. I read the WSJ less than the NYTimes and WaPo and taking a basic look at their comment sections shows hundreds to thousands of comments with hundreds to thousands of "recommends" insulting any right-wing op-ed, making them always controversial. But this original research is completely undue for the lead of those articles to say something like "The NYT/WaPo editorial board has controversially promoted right-wing views", and some random sources that vaguely relate to this of the style that my opponents provided would use [1][2][3] for the NYT that I found in a minute. Bill Williams 01:35, 3 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Also, I find it interesting how when my opponents disputed my proposed content removal, instead of resolving it civilly, they resort to insulting me (e.g. call me a liar, disruptive, or malicious), brought up the fact that I sockpuppeted a minimal amount over two years ago, which I have already apologized for and not done since, and mentioned that I was topic banned over two years ago from something completely irrelevant to what I am editing, even though that topic ban was removed ten months ago. How does doing any of this provide a benefit to the discussion or the article? Bill Williams 01:40, 3 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Woah, Bill needs to step away and take a break. This is clearly bludgeoning, by the shear number of comments. The content of the comment shows how involved they are personally. Even if it was brought on by uncivil comments, you cannot fight fire with fire. ––FormalDude ^talk 06:08, 3 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi, all. Bill has been quite rude and aggressively hostile over at Talk: Assault weapon as well. Just this morning he told me, unprovoked, that my post was "the dumbest thing I've seen all day" ^[1] and has been, along with the rest of his political gang, aggressively gatekeeping even minor changes to the article that don't fit his highly ideological POV. 108.30.187.155 (talk) 22:12, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    rude and aggressively hostile over at Talk: Assault weapon – No irony there. EEng 03:14, 5 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This has absolutely nothing to do with that, but if you want to bring that up, then I'll respond. First off, your conspiracy theories of my "political gang" that you just personally attacked does not exist, considering I am an individual who simply states what I personally believe to be correct, not what my supposed cabal thinks. I addressed why your highly inaccurate claim was "the dumbest thing I've seen all day" on the talk page, and this was not "unprovoked" as you has edit warred on the article in the past and are now accusing me of being rude and aggressive over a disagreement you initiated. Bill Williams 23:17, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Whether or not I initiated the content dispute (gasp!), you've treated your fellow editors with pure rudeness and hostility and wildly undeserved arrogance. I did not make any "claims," but rather proposed a quotation be placed in the article for reasons of balance and weight and treating the opposed view to the NRA view you have endorsed on the talk page and included in the article, with quotations. Calling, without any merit, your fellow editors' proposed edits "the dumbest thing I've seen all day" and "the most nonsensical and clearly false thing I have ever heard" (especially when the proposed edit was merely a direct attributed, referenced quote from the American Association of Pediatrics on the topic of the article) simply shows what an uncollaborative, uncollegial, hostile editor you are, poisoning the well of communal discourse with bad faith arguments and attacks. 108.30.187.155 (talk) 03:19, 5 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

To summarize and reiterate the above for others, Bill is an editor who patrols political talk pages in such an aggressively ideological, hyper-partisan fashion such that he, without any apparent irony, called a direct quotation from the American Association of Pediatrics (obviously a well-known purveyor of nonsense) on a public health issue "the most nonsensical and clearly false thing I ever heard" and suggested that a fellow editor's proposed edit that simply proposed said quotation on the topic of the article be included somewhere in the article was "the dumbest thing I've seen all day." 108.30.187.155 (talk) 04:01, 5 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Same IP above replying...This seems like mostly a content dispute surrounded by incivility from all sides. I personally have no idea why a medical association would involve itself in a hot-button political issue like firearm regulation. People are free to express their opinion on talk pages in the course of improving the page. If we're going to harp on him saying it's the "dumbest thing"...I'm not condoning that language, but quite a bit of that was hurled at him: "stop lying", etc. too, and there already seems to be a general reprimanding of the really petty and hostile behavior from many editors here. Y'all realize there are like, real people here? Try communicating with that in mind...write as you would say to someone's face, please. Life is short and everyone here is just doing volunteer work. 2600:1012:B012:24B9:7515:4235:8EA:CB0 (talk) 06:11, 5 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Seriously @Bill Williams, you're doubling down on your personal attack? I know things get heated, but it's not hard to see that you shouldn't speak to another editor in the manner you did here. ––FormalDude ^talk 07:50, 5 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Stating that a claim is dumb is not attacking anyone personally, unless you think a claim is a person. I called the editor's claim dumb after seeing numerous other claims of theirs, considering they have edit warred on this article and are accusing me of being part of a cabal and other conspiracy theories that I am other editors supposedly control the article for propaganda purposes, which is a legitimate personal attack. Bill Williams 07:54, 5 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Bill has clearly and repeatedly shown himself to be so unmoored from reality and attached to his hyper-partisan worldview that he calls a claim by a highly respected medical organization on a public health issue "the most nonsensical thing I have ever seen" and a suggestion to add a quotation for to an article for balance reasons (not an endorsement, a simple quotation stating a view by a prominent and respected organization on the topic of an article) "the dumbest thing I've seen all day." Can anyone, in good faith, possibly think that a statement by the American Association of Pediatrics is likely to be the "most nonsensical and clearly false thing I have ever seen?" Hyper-partisan ideologues like Bill have no business editing an encyclopedia. 108.30.187.155 (talk) 15:51, 5 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

PS: And for the last time, I didn't make any "claims", Bill. I proposed the inclusion of a single quotation in the article. Proposing that we quote the position of a group that supports assault weapons bans on the assault weapons page does not entail that I have made any "claims;" it literally only means that I think the viewpoint is an example of a promninent and notable perspective on the topic of the article that deserves to be covered in the article at least one time. Bill is literally doing everything he can to insure that Wikipedia NOT EVEN mention the existence of viewpoints he disagrees with. I had not even previously interacted with Bill when he hurled that invective at me for proposing that a single sentence be added to the article for balance reasons. 108.30.187.155 (talk) 16:11, 5 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I do not understand why you are still ranting about a few sentences I wrote a single time in response to multiple paragraph rants of yours. It was a content issue that is irrelevant to this, and simply shows how you do not care about the content and only care about insulting me. A group of pediatricians is neither notable nor credible on the issue of rifles and has no relevance to the article. Bill Williams 20:12, 5 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No one needs the last word in here. At a time when hostilities should be dialed back, they're ramping up. --GoneIn60 (talk) 20:26, 5 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

He has called me in this talk page alone, a "hyperpartisan idealogue", "rude", "hostile", "arrogant", "uncollaborative", "uncollegial", and being part of a "political gang" that "aggressively gatekeeps" what does not fit my "highly ideological POV". Instead of complaining about my responses, deal with his repeated person attacks and conspiracy theories about a nonexistent cabal that supposedly opposes him. Bill Williams 21:22, 5 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Bill, your comments to them were indeed rude, hostile, arrogant, and uncollaborative. It's not surprising they feel they are being gatekept. ––FormalDude ^talk 00:23, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"rude, hostile, arrogant, and uncollaborative" I am uncollaborative with people who personally insult me, which is the only thing you are doing. They are a conspiracy theorist who thinks a cabal of editors is conspiring to suppress them on the talk page, and they have personally insulted myself and others who they believe to be part of this cabal. I never once insulted them personally, only calling a claim of theirs dumb, while they have called me personally all kinds of names, and now so have you. Bill Williams 02:06, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Bill Williams: Your comment about their proposal was were things started going immediately south, due to your needlessly hostile response. Had you responded with civility, I do not think we would be here. ––FormalDude ^talk 20:30, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Bill, I had not even previously interacted with you when you started with that, so please cut out the bullshit and lies. You might wish to recall that this is an entire thread on your misconduct and misbehavior in multiple locations, as reported by multiple independent users. In this thread, rather than offer any kind of explanation or apology for why you have repeatedly behaved in such a rude, hostile, arrogant, and uncollaborative fashion so as to lead your fellow editors to open an administrative thread regarding your misconduct (not to mention earning yourself a politics topic ban which you apparently ignore,) you continue to display the selfsame behavior here. Perhaps you should think on that. 108.30.187.155 (talk) 06:52, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You are accusing me of "bullshit and lies" without any evidence, which is a personal attack, while you falsely claim that I "ignore my topic ban" when I do not have one, then you personally attack me further by calling me "rude, hostile, arrogant, and uncollaborative" even though I have not personally insulted you a single time. Am I just imaging Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks? Do admins here just not care about repeated personal attacks? Bill Williams 14:48, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Previous IP here...I insist on having the WP:LASTWORD here. Please be kind to others. Also, it seems some of you may need to be kinder to yourselves. 2600:1012:B065:F8DB:31E4:61E0:EE11:128B (talk) 05:14, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• My familiarity with Bill Williams is limited to their activity at Kenosha unrest shooting and its associated talk page that began November 14. I have found Bill Williams editing behavior concerning in that they seemed keen to encourage another editor here and here at talk to include criminal histories of the men affected by the shooting while simultaneously removing content and RS on the article's main page that covered the living man who was shot and survived. BW removed the words and two RS in the article that specified that one of the subjects was a licenced paramedic - along with four additional RS supporting the broader content about the wounded man Here. Those actions, taken together, indicated POV pushing. It continued with bludgeoning via edit summary here and here

IDHT also seemed to be the case at Kenosha unrest shooting when BW sought to insert and reinsert non-neutral language that someone else "caused" the shooter to take action, at least four times:

Diff 1

Diff 2

Diff 3

Diff 4

This was despite intervening reverts with edit summaries stating that the language needed to be adjusted for neutrality, e.g.

"removed “caused” as it implies blame & is not supported by the source"

"reworded to avoid both redundant language & the implication of blame in Wikivoice"

"NPOV adjust to state just the facts w/o implied blame, all parties had free will w/ both their actions & reactions, best to avoid the verb “caused”

Rather than continue . . . it was addressed at the article's talk page here and at our user talk pages where BW denied, despite the evidence provided in diffs, that they had repeatedly inserted this language. Cedar777 (talk) 19:30, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

BrandonTRA (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

The above was recently partially blocked by BD2412 for edit warring on John F. Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories. Since that happened, they have only been combative towards other users who attempted to warn them of this (including complaining/borderline harassing to admins, including BD and 331dot, who declined their appeal) and their attitude has been overall dismissive of all advice and warnings, describing them as "irrelevant", "meaningless", "BS", so on so forth. They're clearly not interested in collaborating, much less in actually building an encyclopedia (as opposed to merely shouting from the top of their soapbox), as obvious from their disinterest in actually being even remotely polite and civil, and I reckon there's not much reason to expect a radical improvement in a few day's time. Somebody uninvolved and with a spare mop would be welcome here. Cheers, RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 21:23, 1 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with everything RandomCanadian has said above. BrandonTRA's entire purpose here appears to be the insertion of poorly supported content into a single rather sensitive article. Their response to opposition to the addition of this material has been denigration of the multiple editors pointing out its flaws, improper templating of user talk pages with warnings, ([4], [5]), and otherwise making unhelpful user talk page posts ([6]). I gave them a minimal block under the circumstances – limited to one article, for one week – but they seem inclined to learn nothing from it. I've seen enough to expect that they never will. BD2412 T 21:30, 1 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Is this the same editor as BrandonTR? The tone is certainly the same. BrandonTR has been a belligerent and unhelpful SPA on JFK assassination articles for over a decade. Here's an ANI complaint I made about him in 2013: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive804#Long_term_incivility_from_User:BrandonTR. Gamaliel (talk) 21:40, 1 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly seems like it could be a sock situation. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 00:52, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• I consider myself uninvolved with a spare mop, and already issued a warning to leave 331 alone yesterday, and another warning today, before this report. They have not mentioned 331 since then, just some venting and bluster on their talk page. I'm assuming they got the message. The only edit they've made since then outside their talk page is this. A 7/10 on the obnoxiousness meter, but yours might be calibrated differently, particularly if there's a long history of unprovoked stuff like that. I've got their talk page watchlisted and was planning to block indef if they kept it up, but thought I'd give a final warning a chance. If another admin wants to short-circuit that approach, don't feel like you need to get my OK. In particular, I was unaware of the existence of BrandonTR; if they've been doing this a long time, with previous warnings not on the new account's talk page, then I'm much less inclined to wait to see if the behavior changes. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:02, 1 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• As an erstwhile target of this user's harassment, I would like to say that their editing on the JFK article is combative at best, harassing at worst. I would describe their attitude as "flippant" and "dismissive of the perspectives of others as always in bad faith."
  Here are some choice diffs: [7] ([8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15]
  If the original BrandonTR account is the same person, then this is a decade-long pattern that has not improved in the slightest. And in my opinion merits a WP:NOTHERE indef. If these are not the same person, then I think a TBAN would probably be more appropriate. Just my 2 cents. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 00:58, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  If these are not the same person, then the new editor has chosen a username almost identical to that of the old editor, in order to edit the same article in the same style, which is problematic conduct in and of itself. BD2412 T 03:28, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  Yes I would personally call it astronomically unlikely. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 10:45, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• In my books, anyone oblivious enough to attack multiple editors and admins while he's under a block is someone who can't be trusted to make constructive and competent edits. Ravenswing 17:56, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• They are blatantly the same person. Quacking loudly. EnPassant♟♙ (talk) 21:01, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Just posting here to say the editor has simply stopped editing the offending articles and removed all the comments pointed out here, but has not responded to this thread or described any intention to change their pattern of behavior. I am doubtful that the behavior would not simply recur in some time, when we have all forgotten about it. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 19:29, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Propose indef block

I am proposing an indefinite block per WP:NOTTHERE. ––FormalDude ^talk 05:27, 3 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support as this is a WP:SPA who is interested most of all in pushing their POV. And they do so in such a way that makes collaborative editing all but impossible. They are very much WP:NOTHERE. They've thumbed their nose at this thread, saying "That's nice" when notified [16]. I cannot think of a clearer case of NOTHERE. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 11:54, 3 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support:  Looks like a duck to me. Rest assured, I read the whole thread. /gen Minkai^(rawr!)_{(see where I screwed up)} 13:28, 3 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I'm ambivalent about a block vs. a final warning right now, and won't vote, but 2 clarifications: (1) after this thread started, they removed their most recent snark in several places, which I suppose is a step in the right direction, and (2) we shouldn't be talking "duck test" or anything sockpuppetry-related as a reason to block; the accounts didn't overlap, and the naming scheme doesn't indicate an intent to deceive. This is the kind of thing people do when they lose their passwords. I agree their long term behavior absolutely needs to change immediately and substantially, if it isn't already too late. --Floquenbeam (talk) 15:09, 3 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think the "duck test" is relevant here not in terms of sockpuppetry accusations, but in this being a much more seasoned editor than their account history would indicate, and therefore someone who should know better than to engage in the conduct complained of. BD2412 T 21:47, 3 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's a fair, reasonable point. If that's what's intended, I've no objection to considering that. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:00, 3 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support as well. Ravenswing 21:45, 3 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Support For a decade of tendentious disruptive editing on the same topic, should've been blocked a long time ago. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:09, 6 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Support, per all above. BD2412 T 22:31, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Support - Obviously not here to be constructive. EnPassant♟♙ (talk) 20:40, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: I've closed all sections except the "Suggesting WP:BOOMERANG" section; there is no consensus yet on whether to sanction and/or topic ban User:Subtropical-man and/or User:Supercopone. --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:33, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

initial report

we are being played here

Overwrites with redirects

Suggesting WP:BOOMERANG

User:Supercopone appeared out of nowhere on December 1 and began posting in a huge number of AfDs, !voting to keep in nearly every single one. While this is not a problem in an of itself, Supercopone's rationales are rarely based in policy. Here are a smattering of Supercopone's posts in AfD: [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] [25]. Rationales like these popping up over and over is obnoxious to people who are genuinely trying to determine whether the article should be kept or deleted, and have the potential to be confusing to the closer. I suggest a topic ban from AfD for User:Supercopone for a limited period of time, at least long enough for them to learn what kinds of rationales are acceptable at AfD and what kinds are not. Mlb96 (talk) 01:44, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• • You seem to vote delete the majority of the time. So I would suggest a topic ban for you as well.Super (talk) 01:57, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • It's funny you say that, because I was worried that I was voting keep too many times so I started commenting more on AfDs that seemed incredibly obvious deletes to balance it out. But that's besides the point, since you seem to have missed the reason I'm suggesting a topic ban. It's not that you always vote keep, it's that your rationales usually have nothing to do with policy. Mlb96 (talk) 02:01, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment Supercopone does need to do better if they are going to keep participating at AFD at the pace they are. Hopefully they can commit to focus more on quality than quantity going forward; if not some community-imposed restriction will be necessary. User:力 (powera, π, ν) 03:03, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• User:力 I am taking a break for awhile while I work on learning a bit more. I will actually work to improve articles for awhile before jumping back in to AfD's. That being said, is it your opinion no issue exists at all with the deletion of all these articles?Super (talk) 06:29, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment - Since "you vote delete a lot" seems to be a line of attack mounted by the 2 editors in question here, here are some statistics. When one's actions are upheld by a community of peers for the great majority of the time, then that is by definition not biased, has not "lost neutrality and perspective", nor is it a "phobia".

  Myself: 71%: [26]

  Subtropical-man: 18.6% [27]

  Supercopone : 0%, but TBD [28] Has weighed in at 39 AfDs in 3 days, only one has closed so far.

  Spartaz: 83%: [29]

  As for the merits of the boomerang, Supercopone is not off to a great start with the canvassing and the attacks. Subtropical-man has just gone beyond the pale and is a definite support IMO. Zaathras (talk) 05:53, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That data is not correct and leaves out a lot.Super (talk) 22:18, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting data is presented in your link: Quote: "Total number of unique AfD pages edited by Spartaz: 8187!!!!!. Analyzed the last 250 AfD pages edited by this user. Keep votes: 0 (0.0%). Account of Spartaz is mainly used to delete articles. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 16:25, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Subtropical-man:, we're skirting close to WP:CIR concerns here. If a person nominates a page for deletion, and in a clear, convincing majority of the time the Wikipedia community agrees with it the nomination, then it was a good nomination. End of discussion. Your personal feelings about the concept of deleting an article are not relevant. ValarianB (talk) 17:36, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Er until recently, my contribution to afds was closing them which leaves a blank contribution in the tool. More recently I'm clearing out the non notable porn articles so I'm not voting elsewhere much. For fucks sake! I'm following policy here. BLP & N are fundamentals. Why am I expected to justify doing policy based activity against moronic metrics. I'm clearly not getting sanctioned but no one is stopping this drip drip bullshit comment ary aimed at me. It's no wonder good faith editors get driven off the project. Can an admin either stop subtropical-man and supercopone from throwing round these spurious and insulting allegations or close this down. Spartaz ^Humbug! 17:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that admins often seem to be reluctant to take quick, obvious, action, such as closing the original report here. All User:Spartaz has done is to nominate some articles at AfD, as is everyone's right, and most of the discussions have resulted in consensus agreement with that editor's opinion. Anyone who disagrees can simply comment in the discussion, and if they disagree with the assessment of consensus they can go to WP:DRV. Shouldn't this discussion have been closed after two minutes, rather than the two days that it has been left open? Phil Bridger (talk) 17:23, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. --JBL (talk) 17:30, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Support afd topic ban and a one-way interaction ban for Subtropical-man preventing him from harassing Spartaz further. ValarianB (talk) 17:40, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I pinged him. He had already stepped back and I unwittingly drug him back into it all. Yet Spartaz is allowed to carry on his work unchecked even though he admits he wants all the porn Bio's gone because he sees it as advertising. An account that seem to always seem to support him at all cost keeps at it, Spartaz still gets to insult and and taunt other editors and the take away is to ban User:Subtropical-man user from AfDs? You also need to retract you absurd claim of harassment or show proof. Discussion is not harrasment.Super (talk) 18:22, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

More unfounded allegations and personal attacks. Please provide diffs for your claims about me or withdraw. Honestly, why we tolerate this kind of abuse and harassment?. Its shameful that good faith editors can be abused like this with no consequences for the abuser. Spartaz ^Humbug! 19:23, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You appear to have summoned him to the afd, yes, but since then that user had chosen to double- and tripledown at every opportunity to slur and harass (the numerous examples of such are linked to by other editors, and can also be found in tis very ANI) an admin with whom he seems to have a philosophical disagreement with on deleting articles. I used to take part in deletion discussions more, but found it to be a drags after awhile but that is just my preference. I also see no insults levied by Spartaz anywhere. ValarianB (talk) 18:33, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• As user:Supercopone mentioned, it was a one-time issue. I have not had contact with the user Spartaz for few years. In 5 December 2021 I was asked to speak in this topic, all this. I see that there is no consensus to topicban for Spartaz, ok - I respect this decision. As I mentioned (in 5 December, and later also) - please do not ping me on pornography topic! I do not plan to edit in pornographic topic, I abandoned this topic a long time ago. And I do not plan to contact with Spartaz, I suffered enough through him and I wasted a very lot of time to discussion with him. I Ask, to Spartaz did not contact me too. For me, the topic is finished. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 18:55, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Support any action to stop this disruption, and generally urging everyone to raise the bar of tolerance for incivility (especially but not only at AFDs). I would have liked for this to have been dealt with via an indef block from the first uninvolved admin who saw it, as that would have saved other editors time. Editors who personally attack other editors should be given like one warning and then an indef, and let them make an unblock request that shows they can use this website without abusing other users of the website. Levivich 18:58, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Support topic ban from AfDs and a one-way interaction ban for Subtropical-man to prevent them harassing Spartaz. This has gone on long enough, and they have shown an intractable need to attack Spartaz over valid AfD activity. Considering Supercapone's comments above attacking Spartaz, I would not oppose a one-way interaction ban against them as well. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 20:03, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose to this. I have not had contact with the user Spartaz for few years. As user:Supercopone mentioned and I mentioned above, it was a one-time issue. In 5 December 2021 I was asked to speak in this topic, all this... and I regret that I agreed. I see that there is no consensus to topicban for Spartaz, ok - I respect this decision (I wrote about it above). I do not plan to edit in pornographic topic, I abandoned this topic a long time ago. And I do not plan to contact with Spartaz, I suffered enough through him and I wasted a very lot of time to discussion with him. If there is to be a ban to contact, it is only two-way. There cannot be a situation that Spartaz will attack me and I will not have a chance to answer. I think that I and Spartaz do not feel like contacting - of our own free will. No orders or prohibitions are needed here. However, if someone wants to impose interaction ban, I demand two-way option, because I still feel threatened and will feel threatened later. Besides, I don't want him to contact me. However, I believe that we have both learned a lesson and we will avoid each other - of our own free will. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 21:01, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Boomerangs are nothing more than retaliatory behavior for reporting someone. The fact not one person even looked into this other than saying "its ok to delete as much as possible" and "he's a long time editor and admin." How about one admin take it upon themselves and look into this? The level of clearing pornography bios from Wikipedia is astounding [30] If someone doesn't see this level of deletion as destructive then there is not hope to change anyones mind on this subject. I have been back throughany of these and many should have been keep based on standard notability alone. Except he uses wording to take makes it seem as if no pron bios should exist. Please just take a look someone.Super (talk) 22:18, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • OK, I had a look, and I agree with many others above, i.e. it is very clear that your persistent meritless haranguing of Spartaz needs to stop right now. Black Kite (talk) 22:30, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Or, perhaps, people have looked into it and come to the obvious conclusion that Spartaz's behavior is fine and yours is problematic. --JBL (talk) 22:46, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Support site ban for Supercopone. When someone persistently misrepresents and misconstrues like this with such reckless abandon, there's no real point in kicking the can down the road. It's clear that they can't/won't abide by our collaborative requirements. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 02:53, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• At the very least something needs to be done. This thread should not be archived without action. This kind of well-poisoning should not be allowed to continue unchecked. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 19:14, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think that we already agreed to let it die and no longer engage with him.Super (talk)

05:31, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Where did we agree that? And why do you refer to yourself in the third person? Phil Bridger (talk) 08:46, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Me and Subtropical-man man have agreed to changes. I am only wrapping up with the AfD's Inwas already involved with. I stepped back from new ones and told an admin that earlier. Another admin literally told me I needed to file here when I questioned how to handle this. Please see that on my talk page. That said I have done nothing causing any issues in AfDs that should result in a topic ban other than working to save articles that have merit. My crime is wanting to stop massive deletions and wanting to improve WikipediaSuper (talk) 13:36, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Support AfD topicban for Supercopone; no opinion on siteban or sanction on Subtropical-man. I watch WP:DSGEO and often see non-policy-based WP:ILIKEIT-type !votes on their part, such as at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Moonax, Washington, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sundale, Washington, and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chinese Coal Mine, Texas. Their participation in these is solely disruptive as they do not put any effort into demonstrating GNG. Additionally, there is battleground behaviour evidenced in this thread as they try to equate their WP:ATA-based trend of keeping to Spartaz's and Mlb96's deletes that are based in policy and consistent with consensus, as demonstrated, in addition to their constant accusations on Spartaz of being "anti-pornography". eviolite (talk) 16:09, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So a entry by Lewis and Clark and a long time home to native Americans is notable and worth bringing up like I did in the Moons article? You cherry pick my votes in bad faith. The real problem here is I don't blindly vote delete everytime.Super (talk) 13:43, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The nominator already brought those up. Finally, we have the name origin story, which is a perfect bit of "just-so" fabricated from Lewis and Clark's journals. The entry in question is definitely Clark's work, and does nothing to pin down a spot to such exactitude. You did nothing to demonstrate a pass of either WP:GNG or WP:GEOLAND on any of those articles; being named by L&C does not affect either. If you had read the nominations you would have seen that. Nobody is blindly !voting delete; they have presented rationales based in policy and backed by consensus. And your continuing battleground and constant WP:IDHT behavior here makes me weakly support a siteban as well. eviolite (talk) 13:50, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So the point is that in good faith with a notable mention as a place where Lewis and Clark stopped at I voted Keep. I don't think my vote to keep can in anyway be twisted to be negative. You and other do not have to like it. It seems me defending my actions upset you enough to want me banned? Super (talk) 16:41, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Once again, that does not show notability in any way. See WP:ITSNOTABLE and the actual relevant guidelines WP:GNG and WP:GEOLAND which have been linked to you multiple times. The reason I weakly support a site ban is your consistent refusal to read guidelines/policies in addition to levying accusations on users like Spartaz and other commenters here. eviolite (talk) 16:50, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thats your opinion. I feel it does. You cannot ban someone for having a different opinion then you. I felt it should have been kept and more information added.Super (talk) 20:24, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Support indef topic ban as this user very clearly is not engaging with the AFD process in good faith, and has no intention of starting any time soon. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 16:42, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thats not true. "Very clearly" is a misleading claim. I actually have been working hard to provide factual information that is useful to the afd process. Literally just wrote a letter and sent it snail mail to a historical society for information.Super (talk) 13:36, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Support siteban -- user is obviously not here to build an encyclopedia and is being disruptive. They need to go. -- Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 06:35, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose action against Subtropical-man. The coverage of subjects in fields that are too taboo to receive mainstream coverage (i.e. the kind of sourcing we prefer and require) yet are immensely popular in regard to other metrics is something many may find wildly frustrating. Our goal is to build an encyclopedia that is free, open, and not easily manipulated by those who may have hidden conservative (or quasi-progressive) moral sensibilities. This whole matter is really just a symptom of our inadequate system of determination due to the lack of and repeal of special exemptions allowing an adequate amount of coverage for those who work in the adult industry. Especially given the existence of this thread, I do not imagine that Subtropical-man will engage in further frustrated behavior around the topic that might get them pulled back here anytime soon. Neutral regarding Supercopone (have not done and do not plan to do the necessary amount of due diligence to weigh in on that portion). — Godsy ^(TALK_CONT) 11:26, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

New suspicious nom

• Mztourist (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I have brought up this issue multiple times before and it hasn't been settled and continues to be a problem. One user, Mztourist has been intentionally targeting me as well as being constantly uncivil. One failed AFD attempt after another, and now I have been the victim of tag bombing. Could understand an article here or there, he literally tagged 20 articles inside of 10-15 minutes. Mztourist's goal is to be disruptive, he has made it is personal goal to delete as many articles I have created as possible. The last AFD he even deleted citations and then claimed it should be deleted because of the lack of citations Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Stanley C. Norton. Because of past issues I now refrain from editing any article he is involved with or AFD any article he has created to avoid contact, only to have him continually target me. I have attempted to have a no contact agreement in the past, something I still support to remedy the problem. Jamesallain85 (talk) 19:48, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You've provided one link to an AfD from 2 months ago, which did not involve any obvious impropriety. If you want anyone to take this complaint seriously, you should provide evidence of inappropriate behavior, not just unsupported attempts at mind-reading. See Wikipedia:Simplest_diff_guide for explanation if you don't know how to produce diffs. --JBL (talk) 20:24, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a diff that I think is worthy of noting. – ².O.^Boxing 20:57, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm especially curious about this statement ("he literally tagged 20 articles inside of 10-15 minutes") and if the OP could provide diffs for this because I don't see that looking at Mztourist's contributions. We haven't always agreed but I don't think it's right to infer someone's goal as being disruptive without providing proof of that. How do you know what his personal goal is? I look back at the your contribs going back to September and I see possibly three articles brought up before AfD and two out of the three were a "keep" or "no consensus" result. Every other AfD you have participated in was started by someone else. I'm not doubting how a person feels and, based solely on what I read above, the OP clearly feels like Mztourist is targeting them but the community can't act on a feeling, however sympathetic we may be. JBL is right and we have to be fair to Mztourist too, thus the need for diffs. --ARoseWolf 21:09, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think if the article was deleted or not is the issue. It is the intention, Timothy J. Edens was nominated twice by Mztourist after it had already been nominated before. Then he deleted references to attempt to get Stanley Norton deleted. Then when the current AFD McGregor started to look like it wasn't going to be deleted, he tagged 20 articles saying "This page should be expanded with reliable sources or deleted." I wasn't informed on my page of any of those tags. Jamesallain85 (talk) 21:48, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) Given the personal attacks leveled by Jamesallain85 in that AfD, I'd say WP:BOOMERANG block is in order. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 21:12, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The response I just wrote was deleted, so I have to start again. Look at his edits starting December 6th, every tagged article was created by me. As for my comment, it was a serious question, did you read the conversation to that point? I am accused of not citing an article enough, I improve the article and am accused of ref-bombing. In the past I AFDd and article of his which literally had no citations and was accused of revenge AFDing. Am I just supposed to take this lying down, because it doesn't matter what I do I am wrong. If I improve an article its wrong, if I don't it's wrong. If I point out an article needs improvement its wrong. My wife makes an edit with the same IP, I get blocked. I get targeted by a user, and I get blocked. Mztourist is not being civil, I have actually stopped editing any article he is involved with and will not AFD any of his articles because I am trying to avoid him, but he continues to harass me.Jamesallain85 (talk) 21:25, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

For a list of the AFDs I am referring to, they are all listed on my talk page. Jamesallain85 (talk) 21:28, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps explain Special:Diff/1059147105 and Special:Diff/1059146759 or is there policy the rest of us are unaware of that allows you to remove others Talk Page comments because you don't like them?? Slywriter (talk) 21:29, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I started to mark them as vandalism, then I just came here to bring up the issue. Jamesallain85 (talk) 21:32, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Just to be clear, if I went right now and tagged every page that needed improvement that Mztourist has, that would be OK. I feel like there is some bias here against me. I have tried to take care of the issue I am having in the past, again it was ignored. His demeanor is unprofessional and results in hostility. Jamesallain85 (talk) 21:35, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If you feel any article needs improvement then you can tag it no matter who originated it. We don't own articles here. Anything any of us has created or offered as time to the encyclopedia, while appreciated as it should be, is owned by the encyclopedia and controlled by consensus within the community. Please don't insinuate bias against you. I'm sorry you feel that way and I completely understand and validate the fact you do genuinely feel that way but accusing others here of bias isn't going to go favorably. You said 20 articles in 10-15 minutes. I only see 16 total articles they contributed anything to for the entire day of December 6th. I didn't check whom created all 16 articles but they aren't yours even if you created them and contributed heavily to them any more than they are owned by any other editor here. It doesn't warrant the aspersions I see in some of the diffs. The one on autism was highly inappropriate. I have a nephew with severe autism and it's nothing to speak of lightly. --ARoseWolf 21:55, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Support boomerang of any kind. Another combative AFD participant. "Are you autistic? ... You are living in your own little world" [44] is beyond the pale. Let's remove editors who act this way from AfD (if not the website). Levivich 21:59, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone that read the entire conversation would notice this is not a new issue. I have attempted in every way to distance myself from Mztourist, he is the one that continues to initiate interactions and make accusations. It's been more than a year, what do I have to do. That comment was made after I noticed the massive list of articles he tagged. I apologize, it was made in the heat of the moment over a long and ongoing issue. Jamesallain85 (talk) 22:24, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Every time I have tagged or AFDd an article I have been accused of revenge, in every instance. I realize I do not own any articles, what I have issue with in one individual who over the course of a year has systematically targeted articles I created. It has been ongoing since August of 2020. I am constantly accused of having poor references because they are from books or from archives instead of online content that he can scrutinize. If I AFD an article I am accused of revenge. If I improve an article I am accused of ref-bombing. If I don't improve an article I am accused of writing poor articles. Every action I take is reflected as negative. I feel like I am constantly been bullied, and it isn't that other editors haven't noticed, but the issues continue. This has been an ongoing issue for more than a year, I have attempted to arbitrate it several times with no success. I don't care if a hundred other editors AFD all of my articles, I just don't want to be harassed every time I logon to wikipedia by the same person with the same negativity trying to destroy my contributions. I am sorry if my comment wasn't appropriate, but I am at a breaking point. Jamesallain85 (talk) 22:13, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Support boomerang as per Levivich, with edits like this they can go find another past time. ActivelyDisinterested (talk) 22:26, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I would voluntarily take a year ban if it meant when I came back I wouldn't be harassed by Mztourist. Jamesallain85 (talk) 22:29, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I also find it interesting that not a single person as acknowledged the escalation that led up to this. No one is looking at the issue or how it came to be.Jamesallain85 (talk) 22:31, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Unless you're going to provide diffs to back up your claims, I would suggest you stop. ActivelyDisinterested (talk) 22:33, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't even know how to provide diffs, I have provided the discussions. Jamesallain85 (talk) 22:37, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) You have done a singularly crap job of presenting a case against Mztourist, and meanwhile your own behavior has been repeatedly and obviously problematic. It is not at all surprising that someone who behaves in straightforwardly unacceptable ways (deleting appropriate-looking talk-page comments, writing "are you autistic?", making obvious revenge deletion nominations) and alleging wrongdoing without providing any evidence at all is not getting a friendly reception. (Personally I think it is conceivable that there is merit to your complaint -- but I'm not going to waste my time building a case for you, particularly when your behavior is much more obviously problematic.)

I don't even know how to provide diffs I provided a link with an explanation in the very first response to you in this thread! --JBL (talk) 22:41, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Here I am being accused of revenge for AFDing an article with a singe reference [45] Jamesallain85 (talk) 22:51, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Your AfD nominations are obviously revenge nominations: you have only ever nominated articles to AfD that were created by Mztourist, and you have only ever done it immediately following a moment when they nominated an article you created for deletion. --JBL (talk) 23:02, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Here he is bragging that he got an article deleted despite it passing all six requirements for the defunct WP:Soldier, [46] Jamesallain85 (talk) 22:57, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That is a totally inaccurate summary of their comment. You are digging a deeper hole for yourself. --JBL (talk) 23:02, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Er, no he isn't. He's saying that an article can (and should) be deleted even if it meets one of the six requirements, if it doesn't meet WP:GNG. And he's correct. In fact GNG trumps all of the requirements, technically. Claiming they're saying something they're clearly not isn't helping you at all here. Black Kite (talk) 23:03, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Here another editor essentially states Mztourist is could be revenge AFDing me because of an ongoing dispute from June of 2021 [47] Jamesallain85 (talk) 23:01, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not really. They say there might be a dispute. Please stop doing this. Black Kite (talk) 23:07, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Here is another editor acknowledging that Mztourist holds a hostile position to citations that he can not personally view online [48] Jamesallain85 (talk) 23:04, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Interestingly enough, back in June, Mztourist filed an ANI against Jamesallain85 with much the same complaints and shrill language -- Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1070#Mztourist's_concerns_about_User:Jamesallain85 -- and some likewise shaky grounds. A mutual interaction ban was mooted then but failed to gain much traction. Obviously, there's a great deal of mutual antipathy on both sides. It's plain that whether or not they're capable of playing together nicely, they're deeply unwilling to do so, and it seems to me that this would be soonest resolved by both of them being enjoined from interacting with one another now. (Whoops, and there's this one from September: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1079#Ongoing_Target_of_Overzealous_Editor Ravenswing 23:05, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• I disagree. It's fairly clear that Jamesallain85 is certainly displaying some elements of WP:CIR here. Black Kite (talk) 23:07, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• If so, it doesn't need to be Mztourist to play traffic cop. Nor should JA85 be AfDing articles Mztourist created, at this point. Ravenswing 23:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't AFDd any articles recently, the last one I did was because it had a single reference, once it was more clearly referenced I close the AFD myself. Despite that I have a continues line of AFDs, only from Mztourist. When one is finished, the next one is coming soon, and as I improve them he only becomes more hostile trying to delete them. Jamesallain85 (talk) 23:19, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• I'm talking about in this report, where they're assigning motives to other editor's comments that they clearly never intended, even before the AfD nonsense. And frankly I'm still tempted to block them for the "autistic" comment. Black Kite (talk) 23:15, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Mztourist has been here several times before, and is certainly skating on thin ice. But he's never commented something that broke me out of my long time lurking relative silence. ActivelyDisinterested (talk) 23:18, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• And that comment definitely deserves a block. ActivelyDisinterested (talk) 23:18, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• I assumed good faith until it became systematic. In the last year only one editor has tagged and AFDd articled I created, and despite any improvements I have made to all of those articles, he fights to the bitter end to delete. When it becomes obvious then I loose assumption of good faith. Jamesallain85 (talk) 23:13, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I will happily take a block, I deserve it. I commented in the heat of the moment after I have been trying to improve McGregor, loading myself up to improve the article, only to have him stack a pile of tags that threaten to delete more articles. I apologize for the comment and will willfully take any disciplinary action, but I want the issue to be stopped in the future so it doesn't come to such matters again. Jamesallain85 (talk) 23:23, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Mztourist files AfDs on a number of articles, and a look at his history indicates that they're almost all military bios. This seems to be his gig. His match rate at AfD is frankly mediocre (62% of filings), but I just looked at the last 25 he filed. Not only do I not see any obvious signs that he's uniquely targeting you, but you have participated in a number of them without there being obvious signs that the AfDs concern your own articles. If you want to disengage with Mztourist as badly as all of that, you are doing a poor job of doing so. Ravenswing 23:27, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• When it comes to commenting on AFDs, I do not look who initiated the AFD. In face many times if I am on the fence I choose to refrain from comment. While true he AFDs more than just my articles, he is the only one AFDing my articles. Is that normal? Why was I accused automatically of revenge when I AFDd one of his articles? I have stopped interacting with any articles that he created, but I should have a voice when it comes to AFDs without being targeted. I am far from the only person that has had issues with Mztourist, I have said I take responsibility for what I said. But it still doesn't solve the issue at hand, why must I sit back and refrain from tagging or AFDing articles he created only to have him continuously do it to me? Why am I constantly being accused of revenge and nobody cares about his actions or demeanor? Compare Mztourists AFD match rate to his match rate with articles I created, he only achieved one merger. Every other article was voted to keep or no consensus, if he wasn't targeting me his rate with my articles should be at least similar. Jamesallain85 (talk) 23:34, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Gee, I dunno. Maybe we come to that conclusion because Mztourist has filed 120 AfDs, a handful of them being of articles you've created. By contrast, every single AfD you have ever filed [49][50][51] has not only been on articles Mztourist created, but each and every one of them closed as overwhelming Keeps, with only one single vote to delete between them other than your own. Kinda fails the duck test. Ravenswing 23:41, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Considering I closed them myself or asked for them to be closed after they had met WP:BIO, I think it is comparing apples and oranges. The articles I AFDd, except one I did by accident, were all source with one or two sources at the time I AFDd them. Jamesallain85 (talk) 23:46, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Nice try, but no. You closed none of them (nor would it be permitted under WP:Deletion policy for you to do so, and you only changed your mind on just one at the last bitter end. That's the one in which you outright called Mztourist an asshole. Ravenswing 23:52, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• I could go back and find the instances where I asked to have it closed in the AFD discussion (at least two occasions) but it would be a waste of my time anyway ([52]). I can tell you there is one thing I didn't do, delete his references and then AFD the article he created on the basis of lack of references, but I am sure that doesn't matter either. Jamesallain85 (talk) 23:55, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• It would certainly be a waste of your time, because other than the single one I read ten minutes ago and already mentioned, you didn't do it. By the bye, do you really find that this WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior of arguing every point to death with everyone -- it certainly shows forth in these AfDs -- is getting people to see things your way, instead of cementing opinions as to your own behavior? Ravenswing 00:08, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• I guess this will be like every other time I came here to settle my dispute and absolutely nothing will be addressed about the actual dispute. If I had acted in the same manner as Mztourist and deleted his references and then AFDd his article how do you think the conversation would have been handled then? There is a double standard here, and a clear bias. Why hasn't that been addressed? Why is it ignored every time I have brought it up? As far as bringing up every point, that is what I was just asked to do, here again I am being penalized for something I was asked to do. Jamesallain85 (talk) 00:16, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Here is the second retraction that doesn't exist [53] Jamesallain85 (talk) 00:27, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• I'm struggling to understand what you're trying to show here. The AFD in that template is a red link and I looked in your history around the time and don't see any creation of an AFD page on the article. AFDs aren't generally deleted just closed. So it looks like you started the AFD process by adding the template. But later I guess you changed your mind so you undid the addition of the template and didn't open the AFD. While this is sort of a retraction, it's a lot less positive then you seem to think. It's not like after opening the AFD someone pointed something out that you completely missed. Instead whatever caused you to change your mind happened before you properly opened the AFD. Which means you really should have done whatever it was that made you change your mind before you added the template. Yes it's good that you didn't actually open the AFD once you somehow came to the realisation the article didn't merit deletion but that's a fairly minor positive, it's the only real basic level of what we expect from editors. Frankly I'm not sure why you're adding the template nearly 1 hour and 30 minutes before you plan to open the AFD anyway (well that's how long it took you to remove it). AFAIK most editors start the AFD first then only add the templates as it doesn't leave others confused about why the article is linking to an AFD that doesn't exist. Or if they are going to add the templates first, have their AFD prepared so it only takes 10 minutes or something to start the AFD. Nil Einne (talk) 03:19, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• @Jamesallain85: When you make atrocious comments like the autism one, you shouldn't be surprised if we don't give a damn about some alleged minor wrondoing of the other party. Even more so when your response here about your atrocious comment is so poor. Nil Einne (talk) 02:50, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Support boomerang Frankly the autism comment is enough for me. If they had shown some recognition of how bad their comment was, perhaps we could let it be, but they've shown no such recognition instead seem to think whatever lead up to it makes it not so bad. And if that wasn't enough, they seem to have no answer to the suggestion their AFDs were in revenge. Further they evidence they've presented against Mztourist so far (although I admit I haven't looked at all of it in part since it's presented throughout this discussion) doesn't seem to shown significant wrong doing. E.g. yes it is wrong if Mztourist did stuff because they didn't understand that offline sources are perfectly fine but that's the sort of mistake that happens and if the editor learns from it and takes step to fix their errors as far as possible, isn't something we would likely block them over. Nil Einne (talk) 03:05, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Support Boomerang obviously. Jamesallain85 created a whole lot of minimally-referenced 1-3 sentence stub bio pages in December 2019 and January 2020 e.g. Wilhelm L. Friedell, Thomas Withers, John Addison Scott, William V. O'Regan, William Lovett Anderson which I have progressively tagged, PRODed and/or AFDed, as I have with pages created by other Users. Jamesallain85 has taken great offense at this and in addition to expanding the AFDed pages (poorly in my opinion) has abused me, REVENGE AFDed some of my pages and brought various complaints here. The only person being uncivil here is Jamesallain85 with his insults like the appalling autism comment. In addition he has absolutely no right to delete my comments on article Talk pages just because he doesn't like them, examples here: [54] and [55] Mztourist (talk) 03:13, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment @Jamesallain85: the autism comment is a sticking point, people can't see beyond it. Recommend a couple options. 1) strike the comment and leave a sincere apology here (we have autistic users on Wikipedia). 2) request WP:OVERSIGHT to delete it entirely from the record as a gross violation of civil and hurtful to others (and an apology here to be clear not just hiding a mistake). I think you do good work and hope you can continue improving Wikipedia. -- GreenC 06:58, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Hm. People are "supporting boomerang" without any actual definition of what they're supporting. So here's a proposal: Jamesallain85 is interaction banned from Mztourist, defined broadly, and including AfDs. (No objection, of course, should an admin hammer him over his repeated incivilities and his reverting Mztourist's talk page comments.) In the interests of keeping the peace, Mztourist is enjoined from filing AfDs or PRODs on article creations of Jamesallain85; if JA85's article creations are substandard, someone else can file on them. Ravenswing 07:08, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Jamesallain85's pages have been substandard for over 2 years without anyone doing anything about them and they are only improved (poorly IMO) if they go to AFD. I don't see why I should be enjoined from PRODing or AFDing them due to Jamesallain85's uncivil responses. Mztourist (talk) 07:17, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Because you've been uncivil and abrasive too in dealing with him, and the easiest way to refute the notion that you have a personal crusade against him is not to have one. If his article creations are substandard -- and, for the record, stub creation on Wikipedia is not illegal -- other editors can deal with them. If they don't choose to deal with them, then perhaps the creations aren't so egregious as all of that. Honestly, you do have a success rate at AfD filings of little better than random chance. Ravenswing 08:17, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ravenswing That's very unfair. I think their AfD record is pretty good. Only 26 Keeps from 119 noms (62 delete, 12 redirect, 4 merge, 15 N/C) is a solid performance, especially when you consider that (a) a number of the military articles were improved after the AfDs began with offline sources that Mzt would not have had access to, and (b) a number of them were Keep-spammed by the Article Rescue Squadron. Black Kite (talk) 08:31, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(shrugs) Hell, I've been keep-spammed by ARS (what AfD regular over the last decade hasn't been, at one point or another?), and I've got 35 keeps off of nearly 500 noms. I'm aware that sentiment is trending towards painting JA85 as the bad guy, and not without cause, but c'mon. Ravenswing 08:41, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Support Boomerang - Jamesallain85's comments are beyond the pale. Might also require them to have to go through AfC for article creation. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 13:45, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• "I am constantly accused of having poor references because they are from books or from archives instead of online content that he can scrutinize." Adding this here at the bottom so its easier for @Jamesallain85: to find: If Mztourist is telling you that they personally have to be able to review and scrutinize every source or it isn't reliable then they are wrong. Rather than getting defensive and becoming uncivil you could always point them to policy. WP:PAYWALL and WP:OFFLINE comes to mind as examples of policy or supplemental explanations. A source does not have to be online nor does it have to be easily accessible to be considered reliable. In some cases the only copy of a source may be found in a local university library. It can still be reliable. We generally accept offline sources when they are properly delineated. You can't just put down a book name and author nor can you say from page 1-999. Be specific. If you have read the source or possibly researched/own a copy of it then you should be able to add enough information to make us believe the source is credible. But to the point, no, a source does not not have to be online and does not have to be free to the public for access in order to be considered reliable. --ARoseWolf 14:20, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I know of WP:PAYWALL and WP:OFFLINE, and am forced to remind Mztourist of there existence constantly, and I am not the only one, please look over Mztourists comments on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alexander K. Tyree. What I absolutely cannot stand is not that some of the articles I have created have been AFDd, it is when myself and the community have provided overwhelming support for WP:GNG, it doesn't matter what the source is or how notable the person is with proof, he will aggressively deny it over and over. With Mztourist, there is no discussion, there is no compromise. This discussion here shows the same thing, he absolutely refuses to take even a shred of responsibility despite the obvious facts that he is aggressive and rude when conducting AFDs, which others have noticed. I source my articles, and I am improving, but my interaction with Mz has been so frustrating I have been ready to give up contributing all together because it isn't worth the frustration and anger it causes when I cannot have a civil discussion with the person attempting to delete everything I create because he just keeps repeating the same thing over and over even if it isn't the case. Jamesallain85 (talk) 18:16, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not that I'm saying references have to be online and easily accessible, but there is a standard of "in-depth coverage" that should be followed and it's on the person who is providing the references to show proof that the standard is being met if they are the only person that has access to them. Which, unless I missed it, didn't seem like you were willing to do. In the meantime I don't really blame Mztourist for being skeptical of your references since you've repeatedly and openly been hostile toward him nominating your articles. It wouldn't really be much of a stretch that someone who thinks their work is under attack, revenge nominates articles for deletion and calls people autistic, would also use questionable references to get their articles kept. Not that I'm saying your doing that, but considering how you've acted I can understand where people might be hesitant to take your word about the references being adequate. --Adamant1 (talk) 22:32, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It sounds to me like you didn't read the interactions between not only myself and Mz, but his interactions between Mz and others in the AFDs. When Mz first made those claims about paid archives, I actually took the time to clip, save, and add the copy of the article to the link so everyone could read the articles, it made absolutely zero difference, because he never actually has a conversation, he stands on his soap box yelling, and when you try to appease him, he just refuses to respond. Take the time to read [[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alexander K. Tyree]], it doesn't matter what we all do to appease him, he never stops yelling the same thing. He has not a single time admitted through all the AFDs, despite who has added them, ever conceded a new resource has helped the article at all. He stands there yelling to delete until the bitter end despite all of the articles except one, which was merged, being kept. The same here, he pushes the blame for our interactions 100% on me. You act like I have been making comments such as the autistic one from the beginning, that isn't true. That was made after more than a year of systematically being targeted again and again and Mz refusing to actually hold any time of meaningful discussion. If you would go back and look at the articles I AFDd of Mz, two of them had I believe a single reference and one and on references at all, the others were AFDd on the the same reasons he had AFDd another article based on WP:GNG. I was pointing out the hypocrisy that he was AFDing articles which were much better sourced while creating articles which had zero or almost zero sources. He became super defensive as well, despite being in the wrong. All of a sudden a single obituary was enough to support GNG. Jamesallain85 (talk) 09:53, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Jamesallain85: You might not be aware of it, but the first person who called him out about the paid archive thing was Andrew Davidson, who is topic-banned from participating in AfDs for various reasons. Including repeatedly harassing nominators about arbitrary nonsense. Whereas, the other person who raised concerns, Cullen thought Alexander K. Tyree should be notable because they are a vet and teacher. As if that's some great accomplishment that makes the person instantly worty of notability or something. Which is just laughable. So I don't think other people having opinions against MZ in that AfD is the slam dunk in your favor that you think it is. Especially with Andrew. As far as MZ being super defensive, the first comment was an accusation that he might have nominated the article as revenge, which he was pretty none defensive about, and then you were pretty defensive in your follow up comment. Which MZ ignored. So I don't that's a slam dunk in your favor either. If anything it just shows that you were needlessly defensive about it from the start when MZ was actually pretty normal about the whole thing. Even after he was being accused of doing a revenge nomination. I'll give you that he was kind of defensive toward Andrew, but my guess is that it had more to do with the ongoing issues that led to Andrew being topic banned then it did anything to do with you or that specific AfD. --Adamant1 (talk) 18:41, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Given the level of synth and at times outright information fabrication that occurs in some of these articles, I completely understand MZ's skepticism about sources that can't be easily verified. It may be policy to allow paywalled sources, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's always good policy. Intothatdarkness 16:39, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Here was my attempt to appease [[56]], and like normal no response or even a verification. Because it makes no difference I stopped taking the extra time to try and appease because it is simply a waste of my time if they are just going to continue making the same comments. This was the state of the article I AFDd [[57]], I think some are so focused on my recent poor behaviour, but are failing to see the issue that has led up to this point. Look at the Proposed deletion of Robert B. Carney Jr. here [[58]]. It can attest to Mzs civility while I was trying to have a conversation on the issue. Jamesallain85 (talk) 10:17, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Why did you continue to post to that thread (in the last link) after they twice told you to stop posting to their talk page? That’s not very sensible and puts the claim of “trying to have a conversation” in a different light. DeCausa (talk) 10:27, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In the discussion below a few points were made that I think deserve a response. The tone of a comment can be uncivil no matter how mild one may think it is. Saying someone can be "brash" and "abrupt" and that they need to "tone it down" is not a real admonishment nor does it curtail any act of incivility. The brashness and abruptness is incivility and will damage any ability for collaboration, especially with those that may share a different opinion from Mz. The unwillingness to admit or accept any fault is a cause for concern and it should not be ignored by the community. With all due respect to @Slywriter, we have a case where incivility has gone both ways, however mild as one may think one side is, and this is the venue for the community to discuss and admins to determine and enforce a consensus from that community discussion. This is the exact place and the perfect opportunity for this to happen. I stopped going to AfD's altogether because of the incivility that is so easily displayed and overlooked during the process no matter which side I fell on. Personally I loved the challenge of not only discussing but improving and seeing the improvement brought about because of AfD's despite the fact that AfD is not article improvement. I hated seeing articles deleted but Wikipedia has so many articles that are below sub-standard and filled with non-notable subjects. Mztourist does a great job of pointing these out and I have praised them in the past for doing so. We have agreed in some cases and disagreed in others. I believe both editors in this case could be and are amazing and can produce incredible things for this encyclopedia. When viewing this case in a vacuum, they are, however, both guilty of incivility, whether in tone or words themselves. These are just observations based on the conversations and examples provided. --ARoseWolf 14:57, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

AfD may not be article improvement, but it does serve this function almost by default due to many things that are beyond the scope of this discussion. One thing I have noticed, though, is that passive-aggressive incivility often gets a pass by the community. It's much easier to call out and sanction the brash person than it is to look deeper. I'm not disagreeing with your observations, or saying that this case is an example of passive-aggressive incivility, just adding an additional perspective. Intothatdarkness 17:48, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Propose Interaction Ban

A lot of people seem unable to get past the autistic comment, which was frankly completely outrageous and was deserving of a block in it's own right. However, blocks are to prevent damage to the encyclopedia and not punitive, the problem being the comment seems to have provoked a classic ANI pile on and we're not getting to the root of the problem.

A couple of points need to be noted:

1. Above Mztourist basically acknowledges he's been targeting JA85's articles, describing them as "substandard".
2. The interaction between the two is not productive, both are uncivil and abrasive towards each other.
3. Mztourist's nominations are routinely being closed as keep.
4. JA85's stubs are being improved and expanded by the community.

On this basis an interaction ban seems appropriate. It stops the toxic interaction between the two editors and allows both to continue editing. I think ANI needs to do something to nip this in the bud before it ends up at arbcom. WCM_email 09:01, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose This is misleading.

• "Mztourist's nominations are routinely being closed as keep". Only 26 of his 119 noms have been closed as keep.
• "Mztourist basically acknowledges he's been targeting JA85's articles, describing them as "substandard"." Mz has nominated over a hundred of these articles for AfD, some of which have been JA85's. Meanwhile, every single one that JA85 has nominated has been started by Mztourist. Who is targeting who here?
• Apart from a few snippy remarks I don't see that Mztourist is doing much wrong here, whereas Jamesallain85 is an editor who has borderline CIR issues, calls others "autistic" and has misrepresented others persistently, even in this thread. That's not equivalence in a million years, sorry. Black Kite (talk) 09:29, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Actually I meant that many of Mztourists nominations of JA85's articles are being routinely closed as keep. I feel that is accurate and not misleading. And it seems from the comment below I'm not the only one to notice. IMHO they're rubbing each other the wrong way and the best way to stop it is an interaction ban. That seems better than the arbcom case its heading for, neither would come out of that well. To add the comment from Mztourist that it's all the other parties fault does show a lack of awareness of the impact of their snarky comments. WCM_email 12:54, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Support: as I mentioned above. Ravenswing 13:28, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Support, as it seems that this is by no means a new issue. Both editors have accused other of vengefully nominating their articles for deletion. Both have, in fact, nominated the other's articles for deletion. There have been threads here from both of them about this already. Accusing people of being autistic is pretty rude — certainly, you should not be saying it about people you are arguing with on Wikipedia. I think that people are often allowed to slide on personal attacks, and this deserves some form of formal admonishment. However, Jamesallain is far from the only person who has been abrasive at AfD. In fact, in the discussion linked earlier in this thread (for Stanley C. Norton), I had an extremely long and unpleasant exchange with Mztourist after I added sources to the article, and I didn't even !vote on it. I think the most appropriate solution would simply be for both editors to stay out of each other's hair, and not interact on Wikipedia (perhaps simply avoiding nominating each other's articles for deletion altogether). jp×g 09:46, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• JPxG as you well know, I and others believe that you refbombed that page. Mztourist (talk) 11:43, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Well, that's fine — there's no rule saying everybody has to agree with each other, and I am perfectly happy with you saying you think some article is bad that I think is good — but it seems to me like the forcefulness with which your opinions are made is not entirely necessary in conveying your perspective. jp×g 13:20, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, indeed -- having just looked at that page -- you did say so. Over and over and over again. Ravenswing 13:31, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It does seem to be a recurring issue with Mztourist, I noticed the same at this AFD when I started looking at the interaction between these two editors. Perhaps @Cullen328: or @Andrew Davidson: may care to comment but he does appear to somewhat harangue other editors about sourcing. I get the impression he really doesn't like sources that are not online. The questioning of good faith comments by other editors does rather suggest a lack of good faith. WCM_email 14:22, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Andrew Davidson is topic-banned from AfD and will not be able to comment.-- Pawnkingthree (talk) 19:44, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose completely misleading summary of my actions. The incivility comes entirely from JA85, not me. Mztourist (talk) 11:43, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Support I have already withdrawn myself from AFDing more articles of Mztourists, and will continue to do so regardless of the outcome. I sincerely apologize for my comment, it was out of line, it was the result of building frustration, however that does not make it OK. The issue here has been on both sides, and I do not believe anything other than an interaction ban would rectify it, it has been ongoing more than a year. Wikipedia has more than one editor that is able to point out failures. Jamesallain85 (talk) 13:37, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose - While Mz can tone it down a bit, to equate the actions of both editors as equitable is not correct, imho.Onel5969 ^{TT me} 13:45, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose When someone edits in a narrow field, they are more likely to engage with the same small group of editors which can give the appearance that an editor is following them around. Also finding a sub-standard article and then reviewing the editors history for other sub-standard edits isn't hounding. And civility as a whole in AfD needs to be addressed by the community.Slywriter (talk) 13:51, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose Mz is highly active in a narrow field, one that attracts some fairly passionate editors, as well as some who lack actual content knowledge but are intent on keeping anything that ever touches Wikipedia. Jamesallain85 seems to take criticism of content as a personal attack, and frames any response in that manner. While Mz can be abrupt, they certainly aren't comparable. Intothatdarkness 14:04, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I take it as a personal attack when it is worded as a personal attack ([59]) Jamesallain85 (talk) 14:20, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As a response to your previous comment, this diff strikes me as downright mild. Dumuzid (talk) 14:23, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Something that friends of Mztourist might wish to consider, I've seen it time and again when incivility is excused, it becomes a habit and gets worse to the point where the community finally loses patience and yet again we mourn the blocking of an experienced editor. Real friends would tell him to stop. WCM_email 14:26, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not a "friend" of Mz, and I take your point completely, but here I don't think that any perceived incivility by Mz is the problem - or it's certainly not the main problem by a long way. Black Kite (talk) 15:25, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

User:Wee Curry Monster I am surprised by your rather barbed comments about me. Please advise when I've been uncivil in my dealings with JA85. Mztourist (talk) 16:30, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose Mz is skating on thin ice, and really needs to look at how they interact with others. But this issue is much more to do with JA. ActivelyDisinterested (talk) 14:30, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What is this issue you are speaking of, because the issue I brought here was the interaction. Read my response to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rob Roy McGregor (admiral) and how it escalated. This has been a perpetual problem for more than a year and it will not change. Mz takes no responsibility, he has stated himself that the issue lies completely with me. That is not the attitude of someone that is willing to change. Jamesallain85 (talk) 14:39, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose Looking over things it appears that Jamesallain85 is mostly the aggressor and in the wrong here. So an interaction ban wouldn't really be the best way to deal with the issue IMO. --Adamant1 (talk) 17:54, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Support points made by the nom. -- GreenC 19:07, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose I feel, and this is my own personal opinion, this proposal hurts Mz more than it would James, especially considering James has backed off already. Mz does do amazing and positive things for the encyclopedia in a very targeted field and that's coming from someone that doesn't share the exact same point of view. I realize something must be done but I don't feel this will affect both parties equally. --ARoseWolf 20:15, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose Looked at in context Jamesallain85's MZ's nominations are the root of the problem. They seem to be deliberating attacking the reasonably aceptable work of another editor, using a mistaken idea of the rules for WP:RS. I can not tell if it CIR, or something else, but at the very leastthey need to be removed from AfD. If conflict continues, it might require further action. As for Mz JamesA, he was acting under what I consider rather extreme provocation. They still shouldn't have responded that way, so I suggest either an admonishment and warning, or a very short block--perhaps 24 hours. DGG ( talk ) 22:59, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Propose admonishment for Jamesallain85

I don't think the autistic comment can be allowed to pass without comment from the community. I propose Jamesallain85 is admonished for that comment with the warning that if any such comment is repeated it will result in an immediate and escalating series of blocks. Such blocks may be imposed by any admin without referral to ANI. WCM_email 09:01, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Support. As I said in my comment above, it has no place in a collaborative effort to write an encyclopedia, and we should not put up with it. jp×g 10:08, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Ban an admonishment is completely inadequate and will do no more than the warning given to him after this: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1070#Mztourist's_concerns_about_User:Jamesallain85 Mztourist (talk) 11:47, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Support: Ravenswing 13:27, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. Jamesallain85 (talk) 13:39, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 13:45, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Weak Support, as I feel this is a very weak response. But if this is the best that can be done, it's better than ignoring it and hoping it will go away. Intothatdarkness 13:58, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Weak Support per Intothatdarkness above. I find this sort of thing far more offensive than the standard sorts of statements involving four letter words. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 14:07, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Support it's offensive and there is no place for such behavior.--Paul McDonald (talk) 14:10, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose Admonish is not enough, what epitaph would they have had to use to receive harsher censure? ActivelyDisinterested (talk) 14:32, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Two editors cannot get along, and it's not the first time an interpersonal conflict between the two has ended up at this noticeboard. An admonishment just reads like "we don't like what we're seeing, but we also don't know what to do about it / don't want to do anything about it." If this is all that's done, odds are this will end up at this noticeboard again at some point. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 17:02, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Which it already has twice before this year, and will again, given the lack of stomach for something as simple as a mutual interaction ban. Ravenswing 17:37, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I suggested an interaction ban and the admonishment to deal with a comment that went too far. I'm disappointed that the community is divided over the interaction ban, particularly so when one editor is saying they are not the problem. It shows they have a lack of awareness that their conduct is also part of the problem and I feel they are being encouraged in that belief with editors stating one side was worse than the other. WCM_email 20:42, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose Admonish it should be clear by the way Jamesallain85 has acted in this ANI complaint about their side of the disagreement that an admonishment alone probably won't deal with the issue and is therefore to weak of a sanction. Especially considering the whole autistic comment, but even without that there's enough on Jamesallain85's side to warrant more then a rebuke IMO. More so because there's already been ANI complaints about them that didn't seem to correct their behavior. --Adamant1 (talk) 18:06, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Support reasonable solution along with the iban. -- GreenC 19:09, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Support I support admonishment even though James did apologize, which I personally accept as a member of the community. This is something that can't be overlooked and James needs to understand this type of comment is never okay and certainly not understandable under any circumstances. --ARoseWolf 20:18, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Support as a first-line remedy per above and my reply in the next section. AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 20:29, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per WP:ROPE. James strikes me as someone who genuinely wants to improve the encyclopedia, but made a horrible, egregious decision. They seem to have gotten the message that such language is intolerable here and I doubt that they will repeat it. In light of this, I would support giving them a final warning with the understanding that using similar language again will result in an indefinite block. Mlb96 (talk) 21:10, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Propose one-way IBAN for Jamesallain85 and admonishment for Mztourist

It's clear, from my reading of the above, that there are concerns about giving a pass to Mztourist's civility, but that it does not rise to the level of a sanction. I believe that he should be formally warned against uncivil behavior in the future. However, since the locus of the problem is primarily Jamesallain85's behavior and his conflicts with Mztourist, there should be an IBAN applied to him interacting with Mztourist. That IBAN will also serve as a suitable sanction given the "autistic" comment that was made earlier.--WaltCip-(talk) 17:55, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Could someone who supports action against Mz for incivility please quote and diff some recent examples? Levivich 18:06, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose one-way IBANs are good options only in limited circumstances. Even in cases where a one-way IBAN is enacted the other party should treat it as two-way (at minimum, not intentionally put themselves in the way of the other editor). Specifically in this case I'd note that (based on user talk page notifications at [60]) it seems post-2020 Mztourist is the only one who has nominated Jamesallain85's articles for deletion. It doesn't really matter whether the rationales for deletion were solid or not, the point is that Mztourist repeatedly initiates interactions with Jamesallain85; I'm assuming that will continue in the future, in which case a one-way IBAN would just create agitation and not be an appropriate solution here. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 18:13, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  I don't see enough evidence that Mztourist is deliberately targeting Jamesallain85's articles for deletion out of malice, at least not in the same way that JA85 retaliated shortly after this became a sticking point between the two of them. The proper response to having an article proposed for deletion, if you feel that the subject is notable and that the article is worth keeping, is to improve that article so that it stands muster. Retaliating against the filer is not the proper response. This is why the IBAN needs to be one-way, since up to this point apart from being short, Mztourist has not attempted to weaponize Wikipedia's processes against another user. WaltCip-(talk) 18:20, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose: (nods to ProcrastinatingReader) I was thinking the same thing; what, Mztourist gets to tee off all he pleases on Jamesallain85's article creations, and JA85's not allowed to defend them? Oh dear me no. Ravenswing 18:18, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose I think Jamesallain85's personal attack in this instance was understandable in view od the absurd nominations being made by Mztourist, who does not recognize the principle that paywalled sources are acceptable. The proper remedy is a topic ban for Mztourist against making AfD nominations, at least of Jamesallain85's articles. An admonishment for Mztourist JAwould be quite enough considering the provocation. DGG ( talk ) 18:34, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• You think that calling someone "autistic" was "understandable"? Good f***ing grief, this place is rapidly going down the toilet. Black Kite (talk) 19:20, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • +1 I suspect anyone who used "Jew" or "gay" as a negative because they were "provoked" would be indeffed on sight. Can someone explain how using "autistic" as a negative is better? Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 20:55, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Understandable" does not mean that I think it was good behavior, but I would not, personally, give anyone an indef for the use of an insulting word, tho I would for frequently talking this way. The more serious forms of personal attack are concentrated attacks on someones work , it's attacking for the purpose of attacking the individual, not for enforcing a (misguided) understanding of RS. DGG ( talk ) 23:11, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • Let me clarify my Jew/gay analogy. It's not just a personal attack. The implication of such an attack is that users who really are Jewish or gay or autistic are somehow unwelcome here. So it's a attack not just against the one user, but a large fraction of Wikipedians. People who are routinely discriminated against IRL, and might have thought of Wikipedia as a refuge. When we say it was "understandable", what message are we sending to those users? If Jamesallain85 had said "asshole" or another generic insult that would be different, because it's not targeting any group. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 23:26, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • (e/c) @DGG: What are you talking about? That last sentence is incoherent. Also, I assume you're not considering the effect using "autistic" as a slur has on, you know, people with autism. How does that rank on the seriousness scale for forms of personal attack? Also, there are more sanctions than "understandable" and "indef block", and in this section, indef block isn't even proposed. Also, to save on pings, in your comment in the previous section I'm fairly sure you've mixed up the two editors. Otherwise, great job though. --Floquenbeam (talk) 23:32, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • Well, I can't speak on behalf of the entire autist community, but I don't feel particularly "targeted"; it's not like this is significantly worse than "imbecile" or "moron" or "idiot" (all of which would be clear personal attacks and worthy of sanctions/admonishment/etc on that basis). jp×g 00:44, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
          • If someone says, "You eat with chopsticks? What are you, Chinese?", that's an offensive slur, even though there is nothing wrong with being Chinese. It draws on a stereotype and implies that there is something wrong with being Chinese and eating with chopsticks. In the same way, the "are you autistic?" comment was offensive even though there is nothing wrong with being autistic, because it implied that if a person were autistic, that would explain why the person would "fail to grasp" things. That's tantamount to calling autistic people stupid, which is significantly worse than calling the editor you're arguing with an idiot, imbecile, or moron. It's one thing to get into an argument and call the other guy an idiot, it's quite another to get into an argument and call the other guy autistic. I think we can tolerate the former but not the latter. The former is an attack against the other editor, the latter is an attack against the other editors and autistic people. (And it's an attack even if no autistic person actually feels attacked...the success of the attack is irrelevant.) Levivich 06:05, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Why does one get a pass while the other does not? On a project which supposedly has civility in discussions as a primary focus of the project how does either promote collaboration. Do I believe James was inappropriate? Absolutely. His autistic comment was vile. I also feel Mz was inappropriate. We all know the connotations and stigmatizations associated with the perception of mental illnesses. Some of the first code words you always hear are the ones mentioned here. Getting triggered enough to call another human terrible things inferring mental illness is okay but asking them if they are autistic is different? An attack is an attack and neither should be tolerated. I do think DDG has a point in the discussion of targeted actions. I think we can say that Mz targeted James because Mz feels that James produces sub-standard work, however, Mz targeted articles on Wikipedia that he feels are sub-standard and that's actually encouraged. Remove James and replace them with someone else and Mz would do the same thing. So it's not personal against James, in that sense, and no editor here should become so attached to anything they write that they feel personally attacked when someone disagrees that it belongs here. Likewise, no editor should become triggered enough to call another editor names just because they disagree, no matter the provocation. This is a case of both editors not being civil, regardless of the words used and it shouldn't be tolerated because, as a community, it is one of our primary principles for a healthy and productive collaboration effort. --ARoseWolf 13:31, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

the last sentence means that he's attacking the articles to attack the editor; I don't see how it could be misunderstood. I fixed the names. . And I continue to think that emphasizing individual words as bright lines does rational handling of disputes a disservice: typically #1 pushes #2 repeatedly, until #2 says something we regard as inexcusable. But I've broken my rule not to comment more than twice in a single discussion, for which I apologize. DGG ( talk ) 00:27, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose per above. -- GreenC 19:11, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose one-way IBAN, Support admonishment In the past we had much more serious offenders who were allowed to stop their offensive behavior and go free. Something like this: [18:26, December 7, 2021]; is certainly unacceptable but it doesn't require IBAN. Admonishment for both is more appropriate. Relative to Mztourist behavior, something like WP:DISENGAGE might be advised. AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 20:16, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose one-way IBAN, Support admonishment I oppose any interaction ban at this time but support admonishment of both James and Mz. Diffs have been provided, along with the witness statements of others who have dealt with Mz that have labeled them "abrasive, "abrupt" and acknowledged they need to "tone it down" which are all indications of the tone of incivility that Mz certainly is not alone in exhibiting but is often the result of their discussions with those that have an opposing point of view, especially at AfD's. Because I feel both editors can do amazing things for the encyclopedia I stop short of any ban or block at this point and feel an admonishment would give both an opportunity to evaluate and take corrective steps to improve their tone when dealing with others in the community. --ARoseWolf 20:29, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose A one-way IBAN essentially means that Mztourist could nominate James's articles for deletion and James would not be allowed to defend his own articles. That strikes me as completely unfair. If there is to be an IBAN, it should be two-way. Mlb96 (talk) 21:02, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support directly addresses the only behavioral problem here. --JBL (talk) 22:20, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Support since I agree with JBL that it's the only thing that will address the behavioral problems here. As a side to that, the thing about how Jamesallain85 wouldn't be able to defend "their own articles" if there was a one way ban is a little ridiculous. The articles don't belong to Jamesallain85 and if said articles are truly notable then other people besides Jamesallain85 will be able to defend them as such. I'm assuming without the behavioral issues being a part of it. So this seems like a good option to me. --Adamant1 (talk) 23:45, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • You know what I meant, don't nitpick over semantics; "their own articles" as in "articles that they wrote," not "articles that they own." And it seems unfair to force them to put their faith in other users when it's their work on the chopping block. The notability guidelines are intentionally vague, but that also means that sometimes users come to different conclusions. The person whose work is up for deletion shouldn't be prevented from making arguments in their favor. Mlb96 (talk) 01:42, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's less to do with what you meant and more to do with the fact that Jamesallain85 clearly has some ownership issues when it comes to articles they have created. Which IMO is just being fed into with how things are being phrased. I'm not saying it's intentional on your part though. Outside of that, I agree that a person whose work is up for deletion shouldn't be prevented from making arguments in their favor, but that doesn't include calling nominators autistic. If he was just making normal arguments we wouldn't be here right now and I wouldn't really care about it. --Adamant1 (talk) 03:09, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Without commenting on the specifics here, I've been fairly successful at getting ArbCom to stop using "admonishment" and I'd like to just butt in here and explain why: we warn users all the time for any number of things, but somehow with more long-term problems we admonish them instead. I don't think that makes much sense and strongly prefer "formal warnings" to "admonishments". Beeblebrox (talk) 00:35, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would be inclined to agree with this. jp×g 00:45, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose, per Mlb96 and ProcrastinatingReader; of particular concern to me is that in this situation both editors seem to have been behaving rather badly, so a one-way interaction ban would be quite lopsided (being, as it were, a reward for one party and a punishment for the other). Comments like this do not indicate that this is a situation where one person is just being aggressive for no reason. jp×g 00:55, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What's wrong with Mztourist saying that Jamesallain85's time could be better spent writing detailed, properly referenced pages? Even if it's a tad defensive, it's rather weird to somehow equate that to Jamesallain85 calling Mztourist autistic. They aren't even on the same level. --Adamant1 (talk) 03:13, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure what you mean by "equating". Let me present you with the following scenario, and tell me what you think of it.

CEPHALUS: Thrasymachus, you are a gigantic goddamn idiot.

THRASYMACHUS: Cephalus, you are a gigantic goddamn idiot and you should go fuck yourself off a bridge.

Personally, I would posit that while Thrasymachus has clearly violated the bounds of civility, so too has Cephalus, and the greater indiscretion of Thrasymachus does not somehow vindicate or invalidate the fact that Cephalus has said something extremely impolite. In an environment where propriety was considered important, the conduct of Cephalus should not be permitted either. jp×g 04:54, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose one-way IBAN since that has no possible chance of working. You can't have one person allowed to talk about and try to delete the articles another created, and the other not able to say anything in response. Dream Focus 05:57, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Support one-way IBAN and oppose admonishment obviously. Whether a few Users consider me "abrasive" or "abrupt" that doesn't in any way rise to the level of JA85's personal attacks of saying I'm screaming, being petty, making myself look like an ass and calling me autistic just in the one thread. So its a bit hard to accept that me saying "If only one of those "better things to do" was actually writing detailed properly referenced pages..." is in the same league. Mztourist (talk) 08:53, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose A one way interaction ban is a charter for abuse, this has been a two way street with both editors rubbing each other the wrong one. There is blame on both sides here and only one side is insisting they've done nothing wrong. A one-way ban sends the wrong signal. WCM_email 20:38, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

New proposal

User:Jamesallain85 first agrees to never again create a military biography stub and secondly agrees to within two months revisit and expand all the military biography stubs created by him with reliable sourcing, following which they are reviewed for notability by an impartial milhist User who will either pass the page or submit it to AFD. I will recuse myself from all involvement until after the Milhist review. Mztourist (talk) 07:56, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose This is completely unacceptable, it is perfectly acceptable to create stubs for other editors to later expand. WCM_email 20:32, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Mainly due to the burden it might place on Milhist. Ja85 seems to have OWN issues with stubs in any case. Intothatdarkness 23:56, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: Mztourist's lack of insight into the problem of questionable AfD noms does not appear to be improving and suggesting imposing restrictions that are stricter than policy mandates for new articles is neither justified nor helpful. Jamesallain85's autistic comment was definitely unacceptable / offensive and sanctionable, but this is a situation that leaves neither party looking good. 172.195.96.244 (talk) 06:07, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• As a milhist coord, I should note that the project doesn’t have the special authority to review something like that. -Indy beetle (talk) 08:27, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am reporting an incident of an ad hominem attack against me that was carried out by this IP user — IP user 139.47.34.245 — over at the talk page Talk:China–Lithuania relations.

The user in question only has two edits in total across their account's entire history. Their first ever edit was a reversion of a reversion that I had conducted over at the article China–Lithuania relations ([61]). Their second and final edit as of now was an incident of an ad hominem attack against myself, published on the corresponding talk page, Talk:China–Lithuania relations ([62]).

I initially contacted the user to inform them that I believed that they had conducted a personal attack against me [63]. So far, after a couple of days, they haven't yet responded to me (at least, not through that account). Notably, the user quoted some text from my user page into the talk page Talk:China–Lithuania relations in an attempt to prove that I was "biased" (as seen in ([64]). I deleted the quoted text (though, I left behind everything else that they had written) and left a "personal attack removed" notice ([65]).

A different IP user — IP user 195.135.49.168 — subsequently reverted my deletion of the personal attack over at the talk page, and a brief edit war ensued before I conceded to that user (their version remains) and began to seriously pursue a resolution to the dispute. This user was also contacted by me in the same manner as the first user ([66]). Lengthy negotiations have occurred between me and this user at their talk page since then. This user has refused to remove the personal attack, stating that its purpose is to "expose" me in terms of my apparent bias (seen in [67] and in [68]).

I do indeed suspect that these two users are the same person. It is difficult to figure out what exactly is going on due to the usage of IP accounts rather than registered accounts. Notably, the second user's edits over at the talk page Talk:China–Lithuania relations have essentially combined both their own comments and the other user's comments into a single mixed-up blob (as seen in [69]), so, unless these two users are not the same person, I can't fathom that either user would find such a situation acceptable (it's impossible to tell where one user's comment begins and the other user's comment ends).

My goal regarding this dispute is primarily to remove the personal attack material from the talk page Talk:China–Lithuania relations. I am not pursuing any specific actions against the two users who have been involved in this incident. I've already tried to resolve the dispute through negotiations with the other parties, but they are either non-responsive or refusing to co-operate, so I am now resorting to the incidents noticeboard, particularly because I want the personal attack material to be removed. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 18:42, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure if it's proper to just add my two cents here, since it's not about an ad hominem attack, but this IP user has been POV pushing and reverting edits without properly engaging in talk. See [70] and Talk:Lithuania–Taiwan relations. E.g. the user doesn't think South China Morning Post is RS and insists on deleting it as a reference even though I have provided them with a link to Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources. Anyway, this is exhausting, and I am done for today. DrIdiot (talk) 14:12, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

One more: [71] IP user just inserts a random source that doesn't justify the claim when pressed? Edits are full of this stuff. Was hesitant at first but I would consider this disrputive editing at this point. DrIdiot (talk) 14:16, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, previous example probably not the best. Anyway, the talk page has a record of the discussion. DrIdiot (talk) 14:24, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I just want to point out something rather interesting (to say the least)... In my original ANI report above, which I wrote only around a day ago, I specifically said "The user in question only has two edits in total across their account's entire history.". This comment has aged like milk... After only one day, the user in question now possesses THIRTY-FIVE edits in total (several of them quite large, I might add). This is also disregarding the high likelihood that the two IP users mentioned above are actually the same person in real life; i.e. their edits should hypothetically be considered together as one unit. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 15:28, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The page has been temporarily protected by El C ([72]). Jargo Nautilus (talk) 05:41, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've gone ahead and removed, for the fourth time, the personal attack against me over at Talk:China–Lithuania relations. I've restored the "personal attack removed" ({{RPA}}) notice as well. As far as I'm concerned, this settles the dispute between me and the IP user (who operates multiple IP accounts) regarding their personal attack against me. Obviously, if this user has the audacity to restore their personal attack against me for the fourth time, then we will continue to have problems. As for the other issues that have been highlighted in this discussion, they are less of a concern for me, though I still think these issues need to be investigated by the administrators since some of them are quite serious allegations, although they are not related directly to me and my case here at ANI. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 05:54, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The two IP users involved are the same person

I have found some pretty damning evidence that the two IP users who have been abusing me (and have subsequently been vandalising the two articles China–Lithuania relations and Lithuania–Taiwan relations) are the same person. Just compare these two edit revisions. The first edit ([73]) was conducted by IP user 195.135.49.168 over at China–Lithuania relations whereas the second edit ([74]) was conducted by IP user 139.47.34.245 over at Lithuania–Taiwan relations. The contents of these two edits, despite having been conducted by two different IP users on two different articles, are clearly identical. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 18:28, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The IP was removing sourced information from China–Lithuania relations, as well as the personal attacks. I put China–Lithuania relations on two weeks' semi-protection. I'd suggest the same on other affected articles. Blocking the IPs for a time may be appropriate. But I'd feel more comfortable if other admins concurred on these actions, rather than doing it all myself - David Gerard (talk) 22:34, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I still intend to get the personal attack against me at that article removed... I removed it earlier myself and left an RPA notice, but the abuser (who is using two IP accounts) reinstated it. And when I tried to remove it again, this user began engaging in an edit war with me. I abandoned the edit war relatively quickly and left the article under the abuser's version, with the personal attack still present in the article. The entire point of opening up this ANI case was to get rid of the personal attack... it's been several days and no progress has been made in this regard. By the way, I have to comment here or else the case will get closed prematurely... no other admins have shown up yet. With that being said, thanks for taking your time to comment here. It does give my case some legitimacy, I would think. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 15:46, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Just an update, there appears to be a 3rd IP now, and this new IP has made an interesting threat here: Talk:Lithuania–Taiwan_relations#Full_revert_of_non-consensus,_unilateral,_non-NPOV_edit_by_previous_editor. Essentially, they are accusing me of pushing POV from a particular "side" and threatens to "expose" some wrongdoings(?) from that "side" if I do not stop pushing back against their edits. The rest of last night's Talk comments are a clear example of WP:BLUDGEON. DrIdiot (talk) 00:51, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You beat me to it. I have also noticed the arrival of this third IP user (whom you've described above) — IP user 195.235.52.102 — editing the article Lithuania–Taiwan relations, who is most likely the same person as the person who operates the other two IP accounts. So, this person operates at least three IP accounts, and probably more than that. At this point, it seems that their usage of multiple IP accounts here could be intentional (i.e. Wikipedia:Sock). The person operating the multiple IP accounts has denied the allegation of their IP-hopping*, i.e. they are pretending that each IP account belongs to a different person in real life. By the way, all of these three accounts can be geographically traced to the Province of Barcelona in Spain. The person in question seems to be of Asian origin^✝, so I suppose that they might be an ex-pat operating out of Barcelona, or they could simply be using a VPN. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 02:55, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

_{*(Re: "Denying IP-hopping") — They have said ⇒ ...I would refrain from trying to "trace" other users... ([75]) – and – Oh yes, you also accused me of IP-hopping. Any evidence? Does that constitute a personal attack under Wikipedia's own definition? ([76]). Jargo Nautilus (talk) 02:55, 11 December 2021 (UTC)}[reply]

_{^✝(Re: "Asian origin") — They have said ⇒ I am not a Christian but a Taoist and Buddhist... ([77]) – and – [I looked at] your ideologies. Not a single Asian ideology and no stances on Asian geopolitics ... to rectify your bias, studying Asian history and ideologies ... would counterbalance your ... militant, radical and verbally aggressive stances. May I suggest the (Taoist version of) the Middle Way ...? ([78]). Jargo Nautilus (talk) 02:55, 11 December 2021 (UTC)}[reply]

Comment - on the 'IP-hopping' issue, note they didn't actually address whether or not they were the same person, only whether they were 'IP-hopping' (i.e. changing IPs deliberately to avoid evasion). Very few of us have static IPs anymore, and when you're an IP editor you generally have no idea what IP address your edits are going to show up as (nor have any control over it). A user actually attempting to sock-by-IP-hopping, and one that was tech savvy enough to IP-hop at will on WP (using unblocked IP addresses) would unlikely be careless enough to use IPs all from the same town. Short version: assume they're the same person, assume they're not pretending otherwise nor have any control over their IPs changing. 2600:1702:4960:1DE0:6CAD:7C51:CA86:3A6A (talk) 08:22, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've noticed that the IP user managed to hop from IP no. 1 to IP no. 2 and then back to IP no. 1 again (whether intentionally or not). But then, they hopped over to IP no. 3. This has been disruptive... They've neglected to respond to my initial contact with them over on IP no. 1, for example, only responding to me on IP no. 2. They might not have even seen my original contact... which would have led to some confusion on their part, perhaps. I see no reason why this user shouldn't establish a registered user account. It would make all of our lives a lot easier. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 14:42, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This would be completely consistent with (for example) someone editing from multiple devices or multiple locations. It is helpful to distinguish "things that are annoying about the world" from "things that someone is intentionally doing to be difficult" -- changing IP addresses (and the attendant difficulty of communication) in most cases is in the former category. --JBL (talk) 19:12, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think it should be pointed out that IP-hopping is not my primary accusation here (which is why this ANI case is here and not on the sockpuppetry page). This ANI case is primarily about a personal attack that was thrown at me by IP no. 1 and then re-instated by IP no. 2 after I had removed it. Bear in mind that the user had not interacted with me before, so the first time I had met them, they were yelling out abuse at me. I've subsequently gone ahead and removed the personal attack again, several days later, and it hasn't been reinstated yet, perhaps due to inattention from the IP user. The IP user has been editing two pages, China–Lithuania relations and Lithuania–Taiwan relations. Both of these pages have subsequently been blocked by two different admins (I'm assuming that El C is an admin) due to the disruptive behaviour of the IP user, which includes citing a deprecated source, removing sourced material, and behaving generally disruptively, among other things. This ANI case has been appropriated by DrIdiot, who is mainly concerned with the removal of sourced content over at Lithuania–Taiwan relations. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 04:21, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Jargo is correct that my concern is mostly with that article. However, if you look into the talk page Talk:Lithuania-Taiwan relations you'll find many examples of the IP user... being generally disinterested in understanding sourcing policy (the justifications being mostly ad hoc), as well some strange threats (search for the text "If you continue with your one-sided trigger-reverts"). The discussion is hard to follow since the IP user generally does not sign off with 4~ on subthreads. In this case I don't consider it a personal attack... but feels a lot like WP:NOTHERE. Anyway, I agree the personal attack on Jargo (see [79]) is more egregious. DrIdiot (talk) 05:07, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(Re: Personal attack) — What's worse than the IP user's initial act of throwing out a personal attack at me (which might be forgiven due to the benefit of the doubt) is the IP user's subsequent insistence on reinstating the personal attack after I had clearly explained why it was wrong. This indicates not only their disruptive tendencies (whether intentional or accidental) but also their intention to behave disruptively, which I think is a much more grievous wrongdoing. The user edit-warred with me in order to force the personal attack back into the talk page, which, in my opinion, is a terrible pattern of behaviour. The user had initially thrown the personal attack at me in order to "expose" me. This falls in line with their tendency to push conspiracy theories ([80]). Jargo Nautilus (talk) 08:25, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. User:Scantydu has just posted a rather incivil retirement message on his or her talk page. While many parts of it are arguably breaches of Wikipedia:Civility, the reason I'm here instead of just ignoring it is the expressed desire for other users to commit suicide, which I believe to be block-worthy. I'm not sure what this falls under, but this user has no constructive edits, and appears to be NOTHERE at the very least. Tol (talk | contribs) @ 03:37, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I smell MrRosstheScientist (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) sock here. Care to investifate or just block per WP:NOTHERE? Loew Galitz (talk) 03:51, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, that does indeed look suspicious. I'll open an SPI. Tol (talk | contribs) @ 04:00, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) Concur, the duck is strong in this one. They've both edited the same 2 articles with similar edits, and posted the same sort of "retirement" rant. BilCat (talk) 04:02, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. I've created Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/MrRosstheScientist, if you have anything to add there. Tol (talk | contribs) @ 04:10, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think Tol needs to stop stalking Scantydu and let him put whatever he wants on his talk page. Geez get a life. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Billbob104 (talk • contribs) 04:11, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Blocked Billbob104, but I'll let someone else have the fun of blocking Scantydu. --Golbez (talk) 04:14, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) For reference, this account was created today, immediately after Scantydu's last edit (this one). Tol (talk | contribs) @ 04:14, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A very entertaining rant on his user-talkpage, getting the attention he hoped it would. GoodDay (talk) 04:22, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

User:MrRosstheScientist was declined an unblock at 07:57 on 8 December, with User:Scantydu making their first edit at 4 minutes later. Writing style is identical. ➡🗑️ please. Theknightwho (talk) 04:28, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed the inappropriate death wish screed and will now ponder a block. Cullen328 (talk) 04:33, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Eventually, you'll have to lock his talkpage. At this point, the lad is self-humouring himself. Of course, the socks will continue. GoodDay (talk) 04:39, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

self-humouring himself – I haven't heard that particular euphemism for it before. I understand you can go blind that way. EEng 02:50, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am enforcing this editor's retirement with an indefinite block, pending a sucessful appeal. If they return in any way, shape or form before then, the socks will be blocked as well. Cullen328 (talk) 04:45, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Might be worth deleting the relevant revisions as per WP:CRD, too? It isn't the reason for the block (so it serves no useful purpose), and seems to fall under "grossly insulting, degrading, or offensive material". Theknightwho (talk) 04:52, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Theknightwho, I take your point but here is my thinking: The ridiculous offensive comments were not directed at any specific editor and cannot be taken too seriously, although they were policy violations. I have removed them from easy public view. But I have left them in the edit history so that any serious editor examining this issue will have access to what this editor said. Any administrator who thinks that I have been too lenient is welcome to revdel or suppress without my permission. I might be asleep. Cullen328 (talk) 05:35, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Can't imagine you were, in dealing with a troll who claimed to be "retiring" after what I am sure was a harrowing and arduous 20-hour-long Wikipedia career. Ravenswing 13:21, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've had a look over the page histories, and found this questionable diff from 5 December by 106.206.202.92, which has the hallmarks too. Theknightwho (talk) 14:46, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Death threats in the course of a dispute about Santa Claus just seems so wrong. Think of the children! EEng 00:43, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Didn't you mean, think of the server kittens? Minkai^(rawr!)_{(see where I screwed up)} 15:47, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Death threats over Wikipedia not believing in Santa. I feel like a threat of getting on the naughty list would be more appropriate. ☢️Plutonical☢️ᶜᵒᵐᵐᵘⁿᶦᶜᵃᵗᶦᵒⁿˢ 19:01, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Knightedblog0934, a sockpuppet of RK777713 (see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/RK777713/Archive), has previously claimed to be Ryan Kavanaugh and has threatened to sue editors of his Wikipedia article last week. RK777713's identity has so far not been confirmed, but I believe that this article published yesterday and written by Kavanaugh should lay any doubts to rest. I don't know how Wikipedia goes about lawsuits like these. I'm not sure if this is the proper venue, I just felt obligated to let the administrators know. Notifying Tamzin since they were involved with previous sockpuppet investigations. Throast (talk | contribs) 12:04, 1 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wikimedia's legal team can be contacted here if you wish. There's an email address located near the bottom of the page. --Jayron32 12:07, 1 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Thanks for the ping, Throast. I'm happy to contact Legal if you haven't already. It does seem likely beyond any reasonable doubt here that RK777713 is either telling the truth about being Kavanaugh or is someone paid to act on his behalf; if it were a joe job one would expect him to have addressed this in the article. (Obligatory note that RK777713 made this claim implicitly on-wiki here, here, and elsewhere, and, as Throast alludes to, confirmed sock Knightedblog stated it explicitly here, here, and here, so there is no WP:OUTING issue with discussing it.) It would be good to see the text of the lawsuit to see to what extent he mentions Wikipedia, to know how much exposure, if any, there is for individual editors.
  At the same time, in the spirit of WP:DOLT, we should be aware that some of Kavanaugh's claims of improper behavior on Wikipedia have an amount of merit. I've already warned [81] [82] two users for harassing someone they perceived to be Kavanaugh (and whom I concluded at SPI was quite likely associated with him in some way, although not to such a degree as to violate MEAT) and, in one of their cases, for violating WP:BLP against Kavanaugh in the process. (See Special:PageHistory/User talk:Garen67541 for context, noting that the worst of it has been revdelled or OS'd.) -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 15:35, 1 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I would second Tamzin's concern over the possible merits of Kavanaugh's complaints. The BLP issue is more important than the other issues here. Paul August ☎ 16:06, 1 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Tamzin: I haven't contacted Legal yet, so if you'd like to, please do. You seem much better versed in all of this than me. Thank you in advance! Sidenote, having been personally threatened, I got the impression that Kavanaugh's legal threats were directed against the "negative" contributions to the article rather than the specific comments made by those two editors. Throast (talk | contribs) 16:10, 1 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've contacted Legal. For full transparency, a copy of the email is below:

Dear legal team,
 
At this ANI thread on enwiki [1] (permalink [2] as of time of writing),
a concern has been raised about a lawsuit filed by American
multimillionaire Ryan Kavanaugh against YouTuber Ethan Klein; in
Kavanaugh's blog post [3] about the suit (archival link [4]), he
mentions concerns about his English Wikipedia article, which seems to
confirm statements made by user RK777713 and his sockpuppets of being
Kavanaugh. (Past ANI [2], ending in block for legal threats. SPI [5],
resulting in various blocks for sockpuppetry and further threats.)
 
I write to Legal for three reasons: One, to apprise you of this
situation if you are unaware of it. Two, to ask if there is any exposure
here for individual Wikipedians. Kavanaugh's blog post doesn't seem to
link the actual legal documents. And three, to request Legal's input on
whether the community has taken adequate measures (through revdels,
warnings, etc.) to mitigate the possibility of defamatory statements
against Kavanaugh on-wiki that could lead to liability for Wikipedians
or the WMF (regardless of whether he's actually suing over them). A
comment at the ongoing ANI thread would be most welcome if possible.
 
You should also be aware of the existence of User:Garen67541 [6],
previously User:88rising88. At the SPI I concluded that Garen is
probably not Kavanaugh, but may well be affiliated with him in some way.
 
Thank you for your time,
Tamzin
 
Links:
------
[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Ryan_Kavanaugh_appears_to_have_filed_a_lawsuit_implying_Wikipedia_editors
[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&oldid=1058124674#Ryan_Kavanaugh_appears_to_have_filed_a_lawsuit_implying_Wikipedia_editors
[3]
https://csq.com/2021/11/c-suite-contributor-ryan-kavanaugh-the-dark-side-of-the-power-of-social-media/
[4]
https://web.archive.org/web/20211201163906/https://csq.com/2021/11/c-suite-contributor-ryan-kavanaugh-the-dark-side-of-the-power-of-social-media/
[5]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/RK777713
[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Garen67541

Since I've mentioned Garen67541, I will notify them of this thread. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 17:27, 1 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Request #34039 according to the response, if anyone else plans to write in. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 17:41, 1 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Unarchiving to note that I've now heard back from Legal, who apologize for the slow response. They reply that while they cannot give specific legal advice here, if anyone does wind up getting sued they should look at m:Legal/Legal Fees Assistance Program and contact legal@ (even if they don't qualify under that program). They don't seem to have any greater insight than we do as to whether Kavanaugh is currently targeting any Wikipedians.

They declined to comment on whether the actions taken so far to avoid defamation at the Kavanaugh article are sufficient. They pointed out that it's hard to be found liable for defamation on Wikipedia unless the claims were both false and unsourced/very poorly sourced (I assume a reference to actual malice or something along those lines). I'm not sure if anything that's happened so far would cross that line... even the quite nasty insults against Kavanaugh that I requested revdel for are not defamation since they're not assertions of fact... but getting sued is unpleasant even if one is sure one will win.

Finally, they noted that T&S can be contacted if local measures prove insufficient for dealing with RK777713 & co. Personally I don't think we're at that point yet, but any editor is free to contact T&S if they disagree. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 04:40, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Huh, thought that would ping people who'd commented here, but I guess Echo's smarter than I thought (for once). Pings @Throast and Paul August. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 04:45, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

For what it's worth, I am the administrator who blocked RK777713 back on September 4. I am fully confident that my block was correct and in accordance with policy, and I welcome scrutiny by my fellow editors. Kavanaugh may or may not have valid criticisms of the article, but there is a right way and a wrong way to go about addressing these issues. Threatening to sue people is OK elsewhere, but not on Wikipedia if the threats are directed at Wikipedia editors. At least if someone wants to keep editing Wikipedia. So, if Kavanaugh decides to sue me, I will defend myself vigorously on the basis that I was faithfully enforcing the policies and guidelines of this website, and I would expect the WMF to back me up with their formidable resources. I am the eternal optimist. Cullen328 (talk) 05:15, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Earlier this week, the RK777713 account made another attempt at explaining themselves. Interestingly, shortly after said posting, a 10-year-moribund account, Joshduman1 responded to their request. The plot thickens. --Jayron32 14:32, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There were three instances of vandalism to RK's talkpage in the eight hours after his unblock request. My guess is something was posted on a subreddit or Discord server related to H3H3. (I'll confess not having full familiarity with the underlying off-wiki dispute, but I do know that H3 has a very zealous fanbase.) Not unheard-of for people to dust off ancient accounts when that sort of thing happens. I recall an AfD a while ago where someone had canvassed all of their software's users to come !vote, and because of the demographic at play we had 10-plus-year-old accounts emerging to !vote in a single AfD. It's also clear from Garen's talkpage's history that there was some off-wiki attention involved. That general trend is what I'm worried about here. I agree with Cullen that the underlying block here was totally justified, as have been the subsequent sockblocks—I'd be a bit of a hypocrite if I said otherwise—but the subsequent behavior toward RK and their sox, all from IPs, new users, or in this case a long-dormant user, is something to keep an eye on, even where some of it is not disruptive on its face. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 17:40, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure why you think the account being old particularly had much meaning, I just don't actively edit on Wikipedia on an actual account but figured I would try and get into an old account since I thought being an anonymous editor would look sock-puppet-y (which I successfully did!). If you want proof of my not being a puppet, you can find other edits under JoshDuMan on other wiki's, like Ukikipedia that I admin. In regards to how I found and responded- I literally was just reading up on the articles since Wiki stuff is interesting to me and I saw it being discussed on the Podcast. I don't feel I put anything out of line, I don't mind retracting it if its an issue however. I have no involvement with anything H3 besides being on YouTube though. Noone directed me anywhere. Joshduman1 (talk) 14:44, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

While I was able to locate the multiple copyright lawsuits filed by Triller (i.e. Kavanaugh)—including the one directed at H3 (2:21-cv-03942-JAK-KS)—, I was unable to find any lawsuit against Wikipedia editors or mentioning Wikipedia. I may have missed it, but I've looked pretty thoroughly. JBchrch talk 19:55, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@JBchrch: That seems to be the suit by Triller that Kavanaugh mentions in the blog post Throast linked. I think the current action by Kavanaugh in his personal capacity is separate. Klein's Twitter (@h3h3productions) has excerpts from it, but no link to a full PDF. (A recent tweet also has a screenshot of an RK777713 edit with username visible, perhaps explaining the source of some of the driveby insults we've been seeing.) -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 20:38, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Tamzin: Thanks for the info. After a long and heroic battle with LA Court's website, I was able to get my hands on the complaint. The complaint does not mention Wikipedia, and it does not mention any editor active in this discussion. I have yet to clarify whether I can share it—I'm wary of doing it since I have the inkling that someone would have already done it if it was the case. JBchrch talk 21:57, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Unsure whether I should weigh in on this, but my professional spidey senses are tingling on this one. Is it standard practice to discuss credible legal threats to WP on a publicly accessible page? Particularly the email to legal, and giving opinions on how matters were handled by the WP community in the context of a potential suit. Having also wrangled with LA county's (infuriatingly terrible) court website, I've also read over the complaint, and JBchrch is correct that WP isn't mentioned; I suspect WP came up with Kavanaugh throwing everything at the wall. However, the fact that WP is not mentioned in the initial complaint does not mean that there's zero risk here, especially when Kavanaugh seems to have directly threatened action. Surely this should be pushed to the WMF to handle. Theknightwho (talk) 23:06, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A thread was recently opened by Matthew hk about an IP-hopping editor who is persistently harassing and insulting other Hong Kong editors as well as adding uncited content (namely, obscure Hong Kong place names):

• Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1085#203.145.95.X harassment, personal attack and possible part of off site canvassing behaviours

However, no action was taken. Predictably the IP-hopping editor has gone straight back to their previous disruptive activity.

For one, as I mentioned in the previous thread, they are persistently stalking my edits. Yesterday, I made a significant expansion of the "Kowloon City Plaza" article. Immediately thereafter they peppered it with maintenance tags and added problematic content that has been discussed with them before (e.g. they keep adding obscure land lot numbers to Hong Kong articles). They have a long history of such harassment, with much more evidence presented in the previous thread. Citobun (talk) 06:43, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Since OhNoitsJamie (talk · contribs) has warned 203.145.95.X for personal attack or groundless accusation, you probably need the actual ip range and which articles with {{la}}. Matthew hk (talk) 06:30, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sigh. Tuen Mun South extension's semi protection expired one day ago, and the IP is right back to pushing the same obscure place name there. Likewise at Kowloon City Plaza they are continually adding an obscure lot number. At Prince Edward, Hong Kong they are changing instances of the common "Mong Kok" place name to the obscure "Tong Mi". At Tung Chung East station they have changed "Tung Chung" to "Kei Tau Kok". What a headache. I am thinking of opening at page at Wikipedia:Long-term abuse because this obscure-place name-pushing has been affecting Hong Kong articles for a long time.

Citobun (talk) 07:40, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm really surprised nothing is being done about this guy. This is getting dumb at this point. Padgriffin ^{Griffin's Nest} 07:30, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I blocked the IP from Tuen Mun South extension for a year. I suggest that you make a page at WP:LTA.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:26, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Padgriffin: To be fair. From the edit log of City University of Hong Kong, seems there are more than one guy (203.145.95.X verse 1.64.48.231 verse 124.217.188.X which seems they have edit warring to each other). One of them (124.217.188.X) clearly linked to User:蟲蟲飛 (as evidence on participation on Afd), a globally locked user which linked to CCP. However, they enjoyed collateral damage by your can't tell the harassing is from the same person, just ip hopping using mobile service provider and home ISP, or multiple person that have the same harassing behaviour, as they refused to create accounts. For clearer documentation, i think user:Citobun really need to add the diff links to indicate which ip is actually harassing him recently, and which id keep adding narrow-interest info of land lease lot number , and which ip keep adding obsolete place name. Matthew hk (talk) 06:10, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, for example, this is yet another ip from HK using yet another mobile phone network CMHK (182.239.122.219 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)), which adding unsourced trivial Five Big Manmade Climbs" (五大人造爬上), in which does not even have google search result for "五大人造爬上" (Special:Diff/1060049801). I can't tell it is the same guy or not, but they (the ips from different range and ISP of HK) consistently adding unsourced content in non-constructive level. Matthew hk (talk) 15:12, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And tracking the page history, the above 五大人造爬上 hoax was also added by 1.36.41.78 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) (zh:special:Diff/69080201) and in ja-wiki (ja:special:Diff/87001909) so that we never able to know it is the same person or not. Or is it the same as 203.145.95.X, or the ip that harassed Citobun, that Citobun fails to add the exact diff and ip number to this thread?) Matthew hk (talk) 15:22, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And as mentioned that this thread need proper documentation , Ymblanter blocked 42.200.166.13 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) which clearly not from the same ip range from my last thread (and also not the ip range of my second last thread), so that i really can't tell they are the same person or a cult of toxic people. Matthew hk (talk) 15:30, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And And tracking the page history, 42.200.166.X ip range did involved in ip hopping in the past. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/China Unicom Hong Kong. Matthew hk (talk) 15:45, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that there are multiple long-term disruptive IPs active on Hong Kong articles (especially those relating to the MTR and border crossings), but I believe that the editing centred on adding obscure place names, uncited geographic/naming trivia, and land lot numbers is one individual (the same person who is harassing me) as the editing patterns are quite consistent. I will soon make a page at WP:LTA as Ymblanter suggested. Citobun (talk) 01:39, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Update: I have created a page at Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/Hong Kong geography warrior. Citobun (talk) 02:20, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Also, regarding the question of whether it's one or multiple individuals – I was scrutinising the earlier discussion at WPHK. While IP addresses like 116.92.226.241 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) and 116.92.226.246 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) were pretending to be different people, it is clear from their editing that they are the same person. They were doing something similar over at Talk:MTR (two IPs were talking to each other pretending to be two different people, but they both have the same narrow editing interests, e.g. "New Kowloon" 1, 2). Although in relation to the Hong Kong border crossings dispute I do believe there are multiple anonymous individuals involved in that dispute. Citobun (talk) 03:10, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

They are still stalking my recent edits. Citobun (talk) 04:00, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• ZLinn1776 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) This user has been attempting to change the lead image in Scipio Africanus, has used uncivil language in edit summaries ("Look at the label, you idiot."), and failed to start any discussion. I am completely uninvolved in this and note that it looks like two? editors have reverted this change. There is some related info on the user's TP, but apparently posted there by the user as justification for the change that Zlinn1776 has made around a half dozen times. MB 02:20, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

ZLinn1776 My response is that it's hard to use civil language when what is being done is so clearly absurd. They're trying to use a sculpture of Sulla with a broken off nose. It shows great historical ignorance. The sculpture that I've used in replacement, which matches the physical appearance of the sculpture that was on this article for 10 years before someone that was misinformed replaced it back in 2020 with a sculpture of Sulla. The image that they're even using is called ScipioAfricanusSulla.jpg and it is definitely not Scipio Africanus, it is most likely Sulla. It's pretty obvious that you go with the Roman republic marble sculpture labeled with the man's name instead of some non-historical theory, a theory that is not confirmed by any historical sources. As a scholar I've read most of the sources. The source of whomever did this was in French, not English. This is an English article. I'm trying to fight against this type of non-historical ignorance trying to alter the public perception. Any reasoning mind would do what I've asked and read the label on the sculpture from antiquity, not some image of Sulla from the Roman civil wars. Perhaps I shouldn't have called the person being an idiot an idiot just because they're ignorant. I'm not sure what else I could have said there "Look at the label, ignoramus."? Perhaps my uncivil language was because of the irritation from someone that doesn't know what they're talking about trying to corrupt the public perception of an important Roman statesman. ZLinn1776 (talk) 02:31, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@ZLinn1776: You need to learn how to use Talk pages for articles rather than arguing just in edit summaries. User:力 (powera, π, ν) 02:32, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

ZLinn1776 reply: Excuse you, obviously you didn't read what I posted on this Talk page:

• User:力 meant the article's talk page, not your personal User Talk page. Beyond that, "look at the label" is singularly unhelpful when the "label" you keep referring to is the caption you put on the drawing you uploaded. (The originally misattributed bust, your curious assertions notwithstanding, doesn't actually have any words on it at all.) Furthermore, you ought to be aware that non-English language sources are neither disqualified here, nor automatically superseded by English-language ones. Never mind the frankly bizarre notion that using the image of one two-thousand year old statue over another could conceivably "corrupt the public perception of an important Roman statesman." Good grief.

  Most importantly, using such uncivil language on Wikipedia is unacceptable under any circumstances, no matter how much you think you've been provoked. Which you haven't been -- edit summaries of "these busts are not scipio's" and "not according to sources" are quite in order. Ravenswing 02:42, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Judging from the material deleted in this diff, this seems to be an utterly bizarre instance of a WP:NPOV breach. Whatever the merit of the sources, this user's contributions are not (and do not seem likely to ever be) productive or in the spirit of collaboration. Theknightwho (talk) 03:16, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Nope. Anyone going as berserk with fury as this guy is over using this image over that doesn't seem to be here for encyclopedia building. Ravenswing 03:17, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Note that it was pointed out to him that the identification with the noseless bust is backed by a reliable source, but he stated that said source didn't exist and insisted on imposing the other image. He also made a similar disruption to Scipio Asiaticus. Looking at his talk page, he seems to have ragequitted, but a permanent ban might be in order just for good measure. Clearly NotHere. Avilich (talk) 15:30, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• I think this diff [83] sums up their feelings about Wikipedia, the encyclopedia and community. Frustrated or not, it's highly uncivil. --ARoseWolf 21:19, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  I'll be frank: it smells of far-right nonsense. I can't know that for sure, but it's ringing alarm bells. Theknightwho (talk) 22:17, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  I don't concern myself with politics so I'll take your word for it. It is extremely divisive language from an obviously distressed and frustrated person that doesn't appear to be willing to remain civil. Classic case of WP:NOTHERE but seeing as they "retired" the answer may be to just let it go. --ARoseWolf 14:45, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  If Twitter is any guide, that type does seem fairly focused on classical statuary, so maybe.... Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 22:21, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Out of curiosity, what are the sources for the bust with the damaged nose being Scipio Africanus? I do not see them in the article (and the phrasing for the caption is strange to me -- if they say outright that the bust if of him, it shouldn't say "tentatively", and if they don't, we should be deciding they do). jp×g 12:36, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The caption gives Etcheto, Henri (2012). Les Scipions: Famille et pouvoir à Rome à l'époque républicaine (in French). Bordeaux: Ausonius Éditions. pp. 274–278. ISBN 978-2-35613-073-0. I don’t speak French, so can’t check. I would assume that the source itself is tentative. I don’t see any WP:OR issue being likely, but it would be good if someone could confirm. Theknightwho (talk) 17:03, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • I only have high school French, but Google Translate works just fine. The source is good, discusses the misidentifications in detail, and cites its own authorities. ZLinn1776 was just running his own peculiar "The source says things I don't like so it's dead to me" bullshit. Ravenswing 20:36, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

One editor threatenwd legal complaint against me.https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Breast_tax&diff=1059612719&oldid=1059598019 .CoachEzhupunna (talk) 16:43, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Blocked for the legal threat. 331dot (talk) 16:45, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Good block. That said, CoachEzhupunna, I'm also not thrilled about your edit summary when reverting. Allegations of ethnic prejudice are personal attacks, and especially in such a heated topic area make things far more heated than they need to be. I understand your frustration, but that's not helpful. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 17:07, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Seconding The Blade of the Northern Lights, @CoachEzhupunna, your conduct wasn’t exemplary either. Note that when you file a report here, you also consent to your own actions being scrutinized. Moving forward please keep this in mind. Celestina007 (talk) 14:51, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Kanghuitari (talk · contribs) appears to have an incomplete understanding of Wikipedia's guidelines regarding categorization. Their Talk page is replete with notifications about categories they've created being proposed for renaming, merging, or deletion...in some cases, speedy deletion. As I didn't see any direct warnings on their Talk page, I'll AGF and say it's probably premature to have their ability to create categories restricted, but I think they need to acknowledge that they're creating a lot of work for other people by creating categories that then need to be modified or deleted.

Just since July 1, I see ten notifications regarding categories that other editors found problematic:[84], [85], [86], [87], [88], [89], [90], [91], [92], [93]. While there's nothing necessarily wrong with being a prolific category creator, I think it's concerning when so many of one's created categories are being challenged. In fact, per x-tools, almost 30% of Kanghuitari's edits are in the category space.[94].

Ideally I'd hope they'll simply agree to be a bit more thoughtful about their category creation going forward and there won't be a need for stronger action, but I think they need a clear understanding that they're making other editors spend time and effort cleaning up their missteps. DonIago (talk) 18:32, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, we are MUCH, MUCH too soft on this, & should move quickly to a topic ban if he doesn't improve, or find an area better suited to his talents. He has been around since 2015, but many of his creations show he has not grasped CFD basics. Iffy English is also an issue. Johnbod (talk) 23:40, 12 December 2021 (UTC).[reply]

I note edits made by Gandalfett to be highly problematic. I created a talk page discussion a few months back on Chinese Singaporeans, laying out my reasons to possibly expand the page with more information, considering that they make up a significant proportion of the country's population. I bought up Chinese Malaysians as a possible article to look into. I think the message was definitely seen by some users (shoutout to Deoma12, etc), as over the months since, edits were made to do exactly just that.

However, a few days ago, it seems like many of these contributions were purged or wiped out, especially by this user "Gandalfett". I began to realize this a few days ago, when they inexplicably removed my talk page discussion without any reasons whatsoever. Why? I'm pretty sure there's a rule on Wikipedia that discourages removing other users' talk page discussions like that. I then looked into their edits, and also found out that they made unexplained, significant removals on the article, with some edit summaries pushing its own personal opinions such as "Not useful information and may arise wrong implications" without further elaboration. As I'm not entirely sure of the procedure or have the means to deal with a user like this, I decided to make this post in the hopes of counsel by more experienced editors or administrators as to how better deal with a situation such as this. Thanks. MarionLang (talk) 20:00, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This is MarionLang's third edit to Wikipedia. The Moose 20:06, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Okay...? I'm not an editor, it's exactly why I asked for advice from editors that have been here for much longer. I was bringing up as to why an editor removed my message on the talk page without reason. Am I missing something here? MarionLang (talk) 20:16, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Even though Gandalfett has been here for two years, they may still not be aware of having a talkpage, that's the problem. But none of the behavior you describe is acceptable, MarionLang, and I have given them a sharp warning. If they don't change their ways, possibly because they don't see the warnings, please let me know on my own talk, or else post here again. And Chip, it would have been better to follow MarionLang's link than assume it was a user talkpage and copy the whole of WP:BLANKING text for her; it's not relevant. Also, why should Gandalfett archive their talk? It's quite short. Bishonen | tålk 20:40, 10 December 2021 (UTC).[reply]

Update: They know they have a talkpage all right, and have edited it to complain about my warning. Good, now we'll simply see if they stop the problematic editing. Bishonen | tålk 16:14, 13 December 2021 (UTC).[reply]

I propose to restoring the information that was removed by said user @Gandalfett: on the article regarding Chinese Singaporeans, as these information were properly cited and if it was removed without any reason, I don't see why we can't put it back. Since it was deemed that the behaviour of the user @Gandalfett: is unacceptable. --Deoma12^(Talk) 02:59, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

These appear to be some quite amusingly named sockpuppets, all made in the last few minutes. Probably worth finding out who the sockmaster is:

• User:Stop using the common block reasons drop-down bar for blocking me.
• User:What is my account n0 using common bl0ck reason dropdown bar to bl0ck me for it
• User:NO using the drop-down to block me, thank you so much everybody =)
• User:A s00k puppet of who, answer me now, or you will face more acounts than before.
• User:Make the bl0ck reason "uglydolls" if you think im a s00k puppet
• User:Stop using the same reason everytime, say something else or the page messed up.
• User:What do you mean by LTA and what was the first p-age you seen me on?
• User:Why am I funny, you gave me custom!

--Theknightwho (talk) 00:57, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Theknightwho: probably Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Raxythecat. 192.76.8.80 (talk) 01:06, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

These accounts have been blocked. Both Zzuuzz and myself have been pretty on top of it all (also, a big "thanks" to Zzuuzz for taking care of thngs). The short answer is that it might be Raxythecat, but I haven't looked nor compared. All I can tell you is that all of these accounts are editing through proxies. The creations and abuse seem to have stopped, but if anyone sees any more accounts like this, please let me know and I'll be happy to take care of it. :-) ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 03:29, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

User:Umhafs072 is a recently created WP:SPA who has only ever edited the Abubakar Malami article, adding both a redundant 'Responses to corruption' section and an aggrandizing, partially-plagiarized 'Achievements' section all while refusing to engage for about a month on the talk page or their user page. After finally responding on their user page (initially with a brash "Don't ever delete my article"), I told them that I would edit the page (adding proper sources for the Achievements section and moving it into the Attorney-General section while removing the 'Responses to corruption' section due to its redundancy) and if they had an issue to address it on the talk page. However, Umhafs072 promptly deleted the new edits and readded all of the old sections (redundant and partially-plagiarized alike) three times without responding on their own talk page. Due to the reasonless edits, unresponsiveness, and potential conflict of interest or undisclosed financial stake, I ask that you determine if Umhafs072 could be suspended from editing the Abubakar Malami page and/or the page be protected. Thanks -- Watercheetah99 (talk)

• That might well work both ways: you both have been doing some serious edit warring -- for over six weeks now [97] -- and are both far beyond the WP:3RR limit. Nor do your own edit summaries shed much light on your frequent reverts, nor have you set forth your own reasoning on the article's talk page; you've just demanded that User:Umhafs072 do so first. Ravenswing 10:10, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I explained my original edit at the beginning over a month ago, it was simply moving another response to an allegation to the allegation's section. User:Umhafs072 then spent the next month refusing to engage, recently I removed and replaced other sections (namely the the "Assets Recovery Regulation 2019 Malami count benefit" subsection as it has no business being in the "Responses on corruption allegations" section, the "AGF on Issues of Stamp Duties" subsection as it was also in the wrong place and was plagiarized, the "Malami wrote letter to Buhari says he's not Corrupt" subsection which had been redundant for over a month, along with the "Major Achievements In Office" section clearly which clearly violated WP:POV plus was poorly-sourced and also plagiarized). I then replaced the "Achievements" section with a "tenure" section which still isn't good enough as the undos are still occurring. Watercheetah99 (talk) 10:53, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• It absolutely does work both ways, but I can see that OP has been trying to communicate with the reported user. While it seems the reported user has difficulty communicating in English, there's no mistaking the fact that they openly stated that they refused to explain their edits, and stated that they'd edit war a hundred times. I'm blocking Umhafs per WP:CIR and WP:NOTHERE. ~Swarm~ ^{sting} 10:26, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you, may I now revert the page to the previous version? Watercheetah99 (talk) 10:57, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Er, that would be your 11th revert in 24 hours. DeCausa (talk) 11:04, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • Then can somebody else do it? Who does it doesn't matter but the plagiarism and redundancies are still up as of now. Watercheetah99 (talk) 18:29, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • Watercheetah99 is right about plagiarism: the bulk of the section Abubakar_Malami#Major_Achievements_In_Office at least is a copyvio (very badly paraphrased) from here and needs to go. I offer no opinions on the rest of the complaint. — THIS IS TREY MATURIN 19:02, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Moved to Talk:Scholz cabinet § Content dispute over the names

 – Ymblanter (talk) 13:42, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

See Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1083#User_on_successive_Jakartan_IPs_engaging_in_year-long_disruptive_editing_of_the_same_articles.

This time the IP is:

Edit warred the same edit on Emomali Rahmon (diff). Edits the same articles as all their other IPs, mostly on post-Soviet states. · • SUM1 • · (talk) 12:28, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Recently blocked user User:Platyna is continuing to argue the toss on User talk:Platyna. They are making ludicrous allegations of censorship and attacking the project in general. They are also posting links to external screenshots of the material that set them off on the path that eventually led to them being blocked. They express no interest in requesting an unblock so I think it might be best to revoke access to their User Talk page as they have no other legitimate use for it. Also, I feel that the links to the screenshots should be removed. --DanielRigal (talk) 19:35, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In agreement, as I suggested at his/her talkpage. GoodDay (talk) 19:40, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, I've notified them as required but they won't be able to come here to say anything as they are blocked. Maybe see if they have anything to say about it on their User Talk page. --DanielRigal (talk) 19:39, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Without knowing of the existence of this thread, I have already revoked the talk page access since the user was only using it for personal attacks. For everything else, I do not feel it should be my call.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:40, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Yeah, got to love it any time an editor with all of 45 mainspace edits stretched over fifteen years rants about What! Wikipedia! Has! Become! Ravenswing 20:05, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• The editor is a self declared autistic person. They declared this in their now deleted ArbCom request. It can be argued that their character is to have a somewhat different view of life from those of a neurotypical person. Might I ask for an olive branch to be offered to them once they have had a chance to reflect. I do not meamn as a discussion, because this is not something to be discussed. But a kind explanation with reference to behaviours, rules, skilfully worded, ideally by someone with experiebnce in autism, might bear fruit. I think my own attempt was either too soon, or poorly phrased, or both. Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 00:31, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• A good many of us on Wikipedia are on the autism spectrum. We are, nonetheless, subject to Wikipedia's rules of civility and communication all the same. "Autism" cannot be a blanket excuse, nor a presumptive pass, for not striving to follow those rules. Looking over Platyna's edit history, lashing out into caustic, hostile swings at people is what the editor does, along with throwing out their purported credentials as an "academic teacher" as proof that they're right and everyone else is wrong. Whatever their purported medical issues, someone who routinely responds to communications with legal threats, insults and scathing language is not competent to handle Wikipedia's collaborative, consensus environment. Ravenswing 10:10, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  @Ravenswing I understand this completely. I was not suggesting it might even be considered to be a blanket pass. I am asking, very quietly, for an olive branch to be held out to an editor who appears to have got themselves into a mess. It is a mess of their own making. Even so I am asking.

  If consensus is not to do so then no great matter. I just hold out the hope that it might work. If it does work I would still be happy that the editor is on an indefinite warning about behaviour. Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 10:56, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• The problem with that is it’s not a one off. Looking through the User’s contributions since 2008, it’s remarkable how much WP:BATTLE there is considering there are only 250 edits. There seems to be a pattern of going nuclear whenever what they want isn’t automatically accepted. Is that connected with their autism disclosure? I’m not competent to say but their contribution/disruption ratio makes it difficult to see them as anything other than a net negative. Given their apparent history here I’m not sure an “olive branch” is going to make any difference. (In one of their edits they mention they’re a user on Polish WP. I took a look there in case a language problem was muddying the waters here. Apparently not - if this is them and the online translator is working ok on their talk page.) DeCausa (talk) 11:02, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  Indeed, both blocks were for personal attacks.--Ymblanter (talk) 11:28, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  I am 100% certain there is a problem. I know it is not a one off. I would just like "we the community" to consider whether we can save something or can only block it. I do not know if this is connected with their declared autism in the way it manifests itself. I do know that their behaviour, as exhibited currently, is unacceptable. I am not Don Quixote, tilting at windmills. I know when to withdraw gracefully. And I know that the community is not Don Quixote, too, and knows when to withdraw gracefully.

  I just wonder whether we are at the point of withdrawal. It does not really feel graceful, not quite yet. Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 11:38, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  Platyna didn't merit any more grace than we'd extend to any other casual editor who, in DeCausa's entirely apt turn of phrase, went nuclear whenever they didn't instantly get their way. Perhaps I'm colored by my own family's history -- all but one of my nieces and nephews were diagnosed with autism, and absolutely, they have their moments, but they try to interact with the world as civilly and coolly as they can manage, and they don't wave a bloody flag as an excuse when they stumble. We are not a community of medical or mental health specialists, it's far out of our remit to be diagnosing fellow editors, and the only olive branch within our capability to offer is to be civil in telling people that if they have a condition preventing them from interacting with us at a basic standard of civility, they are liable to be blocked from editing until they can. Ravenswing 12:27, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  We actually do not need consensus here - if someone feels they can leave a talk page message which is really helpful, please do it (I certainly can not). But please have in mind that all (as far as I see, without a single exception) attempts to help the editor only resulted in personal attacks, requests to stop threats and spamming her talk page. Please only do it if you are confident the attempt is going to have a different outcome.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:36, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  Also, a postscript: my wife does happen to be a special needs teacher specializing in autistic teenagers, and I set this situation before her. (Sorry it wasn't sooner, but her job wears her out, and she sleeps relatively late on Sundays!) Her strong and immediate reaction was that anyone who's genuinely autistic who nevertheless can both articulate that on a talk page and imply that accommodations ought to be made is "very light on the spectrum and ought to be able to keep their shit together," and is frankly skeptical. For what it's worth. Ravenswing 13:54, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Explanatory note: to "argue the toss" is a phrase derived from the game of cricket. Before a match gets underway, a coin is tossed and the captain of the team that won the "toss" decides whether to bat or bowl in the first innings. As a metaphor, "to argue the toss" is to dispute something that has already been conclusively decided. @EEng: Appropriate image please. Shirt58 (talk) 09:01, 12 December 2021 (UTC) Edit: "argue to toss" -> "argue the toss". This is now my second post to WP:ANI for 2021 of a planned total of zero. Pete AU aka --Shirt58 (talk) 09:15, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm afraid that none of the appropriate images I can think of would be legal to post under current US law. EEng 13:34, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  W. G. Grace would call "The Lady" - and make his choice if the coin fell with either Britannia or Victoria uppermost. Narky Blert (talk) 15:14, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW, I'm not convinced of Platyna's claims of being a biologist (i.e. I know better then the rest, on certain topics - backup argument) or his being autistic (i.e. It's ok for me to be combative - backup argument). Just not convinced at all. GoodDay (talk) 15:35, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]