::::You (and a small number of editors) can't ''force'' the community to accept what you think is right. Drop the challenge to the RFC closure & move on. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 22:27, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
::::You (and a small number of editors) can't ''force'' the community to accept what you think is right. Drop the challenge to the RFC closure & move on. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 22:27, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
:::::Stop treating this as some kind of war. Just argue in favor of your position instead of trying to paint the other side as if they were "forcing" others to abide by their wishes. I still haven't made up my mind about whether the close was correct or not. The guideline says one thing, common practice in these articles isn't in line with the guideline. Which of these is the status quo, I'm not sure yet, until either side convinces me. —''[[User:Facu-el Millo|El Millo]]'' ([[User talk:Facu-el Millo|talk]]) 22:40, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
:::::Stop treating this as some kind of war. Just argue in favor of your position instead of trying to paint the other side as if they were "forcing" others to abide by their wishes. I still haven't made up my mind about whether the close was correct or not. The guideline says one thing, common practice in these articles isn't in line with the guideline. Which of these is the status quo, I'm not sure yet, until either side convinces me. —''[[User:Facu-el Millo|El Millo]]'' ([[User talk:Facu-el Millo|talk]]) 22:40, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
{{re|Facu-el Millo}} My attempt to do just that: My attempt to try to do that: the status quo must be '''what the guideline says to do''', not '''what is commonly done despite what the guidelines say''', because to do otherwise would be to make the guidelines meaningless. If the status quo were based on what is commonly done, then any editor who wants to avoid its application to a specific article could simply contest it and, when the parties failed to reach a consensus, the false "status quo" would remain in place. This is, incidentally, exactly what [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] tried to do to me with the [[Home Secretary]] article, apparently hoping that I'd go away or back down before a much more experienced editor. I raised that procedural point there, and I raise it again here, because to do otherwise allows small groups of editors to sabotage the application of clearly established guidelines simply by refusing to agree, even where (as here) they offer no real arguments in favor of their position.
Just as a side note, I believe the guidelines should actually be changed to reflect GoodDay's wishes, because a) it looks better and b) (and this is the dispositive factor, because so many argue (a) in favor of eliminating JOBTITLES altogether) contrary to the application of JOBTITLES elsewhere, capitalizing the headings in an infobox is not contrary to established practice in academia and journalism (capitalizing titles when they do not precede a title '''is''' contrary to that practice). I argue in favor of overturning the RFC result nonetheless because it is a bad idea to put in place a consensus that expressly contradicts a guideline without bothering to change that guideline. [[User:Wallnot|Wallnot]] ([[User talk:Wallnot|talk]]) 22:49, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
old backlog drive pages don't need to be continually updated, the only real edits expected here are from bots/scripts, and vandalism is extremely hard to monitor
old backlog drive pages don't need to be continually updated, the only real edits expected here are from bots/scripts, and vandalism is extremely hard to monitor
old backlog drive pages don't need to be continually updated, the only real edits expected here are from bots/scripts, and vandalism is extremely hard to monitor
old backlog drive pages don't need to be continually updated, the only real edits expected here are from bots/scripts, and vandalism is extremely hard to monitor
old backlog drive pages don't need to be continually updated, the only real edits expected here are from bots/scripts, and vandalism is extremely hard to monitor
old backlog drive pages don't need to be continually updated, the only real edits expected here are from bots/scripts, and vandalism is extremely hard to monitor
old backlog drive pages don't need to be continually updated, the only real edits expected here are from bots/scripts, and vandalism is extremely hard to monitor
old backlog drive pages don't need to be continually updated, the only real edits expected here are from bots/scripts, and vandalism is extremely hard to monitor
old backlog drive pages don't need to be continually updated, the only real edits expected here are from bots/scripts, and vandalism is extremely hard to monitor
old backlog drive pages don't need to be continually updated, the only real edits expected here are from bots/scripts, and vandalism is extremely hard to monitor
old backlog drive pages don't need to be continually updated, the only real edits expected here are from bots/scripts, and vandalism is extremely hard to monitor
old backlog drive pages don't need to be continually updated, the only real edits expected here are from bots/scripts, and vandalism is extremely hard to monitor
old backlog drive pages don't need to be continually updated, the only real edits expected here are from bots/scripts, and vandalism is extremely hard to monitor
old backlog drive pages don't need to be continually updated, the only real edits expected here are from bots/scripts, and vandalism is extremely hard to monitor
old backlog drive pages don't need to be continually updated, the only real edits expected here are from bots/scripts, and vandalism is extremely hard to monitor
old backlog drive pages don't need to be continually updated, the only real edits expected here are from bots/scripts, and vandalism is extremely hard to monitor
old backlog drive pages don't need to be continually updated, the only real edits expected here are from bots/scripts, and vandalism is extremely hard to monitor
old backlog drive pages don't need to be continually updated, the only real edits expected here are from bots/scripts, and vandalism is extremely hard to monitor
old backlog drive pages don't need to be continually updated, the only real edits expected here are from bots/scripts, and vandalism is extremely hard to monitor
old backlog drive pages don't need to be continually updated, the only real edits expected here are from bots/scripts, and vandalism is extremely hard to monitor
old backlog drive pages don't need to be continually updated, the only real edits expected here are from bots/scripts, and vandalism is extremely hard to monitor
old backlog drive pages don't need to be continually updated, the only real edits expected here are from bots/scripts, and vandalism is extremely hard to monitor
old backlog drive pages don't need to be continually updated, the only real edits expected here are from bots/scripts, and vandalism is extremely hard to monitor
old backlog drive pages don't need to be continually updated, the only real edits expected here are from bots/scripts, and vandalism is extremely hard to monitor
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Closing per 69.172.145.94. Again, bleak times. If you're looking for a trustworthy overview of the CC WP:BLPCRIME facet of this (though not the TTU angle), Dr. Grande did a ten minute analysis of this on YouTube a couple of weeks ago. Naturally, it involves extremely disturbing content, so maybe pet a cat or a chipmunk, instead...? El_C17:32, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed the BLP violation. Whether this is worthy of an article, and whether we can trust to article to remain BLP-vio free in mainspace, is another question, but the main issue has been fixed. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 14:14, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Unclosing this. GorillaWarfare, you previously deleted a draft about this individual, with all revisions oversighted. I did not view the content of that draft, and I don't know anything about the subject matter, but I see that Veverve has created a userspace draft on the same subject at User:Veverve/ChristineWC, which I can only imagine has similar content and sourcing. Please can you comment on whether that also requires deletion and oversight? GirthSummit (blether)11:25, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
First thing I notice is it uses their deadname, despite their not having been notable under it. I'm pretty sure we only use the deadname in an article if they were notable with it. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:34, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Is there any reason to think this person is notable outside of 1 recent event? That one event is an alleged crime so per BLPCRIME that content should stay out if/until there is a conviction. Can we actually assume this BLP could exist without violating the do no harm aspect of BLPs? Springee (talk) 12:54, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No it can't. As in the previous thread about Chris Chan, this article will become an immediate target for internet trolls and attacks. There was a consensus earlier that the subject is not notable, and that it would become a timesink for protection. RickinBaltimore (talk) 13:08, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This entire discourse makes me wish we could nuke it from orbit, just to be sure. And by "it," I mean "the entirety of human civilization." Cheers, and happy Monday. Dumuzid (talk) 13:48, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
while efforts could be made to decrease FPs, they may also miss legitimate cases. Since the filter is log only and likely temporary, it’s not really worth the effort IMO. Most entries caught by the filter were the subject (but are now removed from the log, either due to individual revdel or OS of the log entry). ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 15:48, 14 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It's pretty obvious that the only conceivable reason for creating an article about this subject is to further the trolling that has been ongoing for the last 14 years and made their life a misery, so why are those who wish do do so still able to edit Wikipedia? If anyone should be blocked or banned it is those people, and I only use the word "people" because to give them their true name would be a personal attack. Phil Bridger (talk) 22:09, 12 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I made this point on GorillaWarfare's talk page by pointing out that if I still had the tools, I would be treating this the same way any other admin would treat sustained harassment attempts - with blocks. We need to start doing this. If harassment isn't reason enough to block, then the egregious BLP issues are. —A little blue Boriv^_^vJéské Couriano22:30, 12 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm ready to block as necessary (not that this is the most sympathetic subject ever), I've only become aware of this last week and it's somehow lowered my already depressed outlook on humanity all around. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 22:35, 12 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
For the sake of spreading awareness, since it may well be the case some people haven't read the original ANI, can an admin unsalt Chris Chan (salted since 2009 with a non-helpful summary) and resalt it with links to the ANIs in the log message? Likely someone trying to create this will see the log message on that page, at least. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 00:33, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure that article specifically was about CWC, but rather someone legitimately named "Chris Chan". (The "Chan" here is a Japanese honorific and is correctly spelt hyphenated, i.e. "Chris-Chan".) —A little blue Boriv^_^vJéské Couriano00:37, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Uh, no. "Chan" is an abbreviation of "Chandler," not a Japanese honorific. All I have to say on this topic is that many far less notable e-personalities have articles on them, and that the intense hostility that springs up whenever this is discussed suggests that "there will be no Chris Chan article" is something of an unwritten rule among power users. Zacwill (talk) 03:07, 15 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Why can't we have a draft, but without the harassment? Even if only to collect sources for if notability is reached as more are published. Benjamin (talk) 02:38, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
There's been a 14+-year-long effort to create an article on her as part of a (still ongoing) harassment campaign against her. I'm not at liberty to explain the whys of it but suffice it to say that a key aspect of the harassment is basically creating a Wikipedia article to further these ends because of how well-known Wikipedia is and how high search engines rank us in their search results. This is one case where the WP:BLP issue has nothing to do with sourcing or the claims themselves; the person in question is (and always has been) at best a WP:BLP1E case and so the harassment would be solely due to the article even existing. —A little blue Boriv^_^vJéské Couriano03:40, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not saying there should be an article if notability is indeed not reached, but we should be able to discuss the sourcing and notability in the first place without harassing. Benjamin (talk) 03:56, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You are totally free to do a draft on some other website. However, after the explanations given above, pushing further here look like a lack of competence or a lack of care. Is this an experiment to see how far it is possible to encourage harassment before sanctions occur? Johnuniq (talk) 04:37, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Noting for the record that I've semi'd Texas Tech University for one month (diff) due to unspeakable horror. Admins: I urge you to not look at the revdel'd edits. Let me take the hit for you. That said, though I'm wary of speculating, the chances that this angle will end up blowing up so as to be covered by beyond-local mainstream sources seems considerable, probably more so than the CC matter in isolation (I wouldn't even bother writing this otherwise). That's as much as I'm prepared to speak about this at this time. Bleak times. El_C01:59, 14 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Only as a comment, I think there is potential, pre-current events around Chan based on past sources, to have a neutral/BLP compliant article that would not be an attack article, but no way, no how would I be inclined to create it now or any time in the next two or three years, and if it were created, we'd need to have it under immediate full protection and talk page semi protection. The current actions above to seek and destroy any drafts created right now is 100% the right way to go simply because that article will be a honeypot for trolls that are looking at every angle to slander Chan and anyone associated with them while there's still new coverage based on the arrest. --Masem (t) 16:11, 14 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This is not the first time that an article's creation protection (aka WP:SALTing) has been challenged, and there exists global consensus on Wikipedia about how to handle such challenges, which is documented at the WP:SALT section of the WP:PROTECT policy: Contributors wishing to re-create a salted title with appropriate content should either contact an administrator (preferably the protecting administrator), file a request at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection#Current requests for reduction in protection level, or use the deletion review process. To make a convincing case for re-creation, it is helpful to show a draft version of the intended article when filing a request. In this case, administrators have been contacted (via RFPP and several AN/ANI reports), and there is a clear and strong consensus of administrators to leave in place the creation-protection based on our WP:BLP and WP:NOT policies, and WP:N guideline. There is also a consensus of administrators to leave in place the creation-protection of drafts per WP:BLP. According to WP:SALT, anyone wanting to appeal that consensus has only one remaining avenue, and it's deletion review (WP:DRV). (I'd have closed this thread with this statement but I'm not an admin.) Levivich16:39, 14 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Can we close this discussion? For those who are confused, the tl;dr is as follows: Ms Chandler has been "documented" (if one can call it that) for the better part of 15 years now. This off-site activity has resulted in several instances of harrassment of unrelated people. Creating an article on Chandler here would potentially feed into that harrassment, whilst bringing marginal benefit to the project (Ms Chandler may be notable, but would be very marginal at that). Recent allegations of serious criminal activity by Ms Chandler are another can of worms where the documentation here would likely violate WP:CRYSTAL, wp:NOTNEWS and of course our harrassment policy. Additionally, there is evidence to suggest that there are other people who were in contact with Chandler who are themselves accused of extremely serious crimes including possesion of or distribution of child pornography - coverage of that would likely violate WP:CHILDPROTECT, not to mention the BLPCRIME problems inherent in having such an article. In short - there is very little to be gained making this article, and quite a bit of hazard. As El_C mentioned - due to the unprecedented seriousness of the alleged (and so far unproven!) crimes by Chandler and their associates, there is a possibility that this will blow up beyond local news - if that happens, there may be a stronger argument for making the article, but let's cross that bridge whe we get there. 69.172.145.94 (talk) 08:00, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Also - perhaps we could link the closed discussion + rationale for why not to have an article on Chandler on the talk pages of "hot pages" that keep getting hit. At least then we won't be relitigating the topic. 69.172.145.94 (talk) 08:02, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Dealing with mobile editors who appear to be ignoring warnings/refusing to discuss
I'm seeing more and more complaints at ANI involving editors who are editing strictly via mobile and have never edited a talk page including their own. I suspect most of these editors don't know talk pages exist. These people look like they're simply ignoring warnings on their user talk and refusing to discuss, but most of them may be very well-intentioned and just have so far had zero opportunity to learn policy because they don't even know it's there. Notifying them of a discussion about them at ANI is pretty useless when they haven't even realized they've got a user talk.
But I'm thinking we need to come up with strategies for trying to get their attention when they're brought to AN/I.
Obviously if they've got email enabled, consider emailing them a link to their user talk/the ANI section if you feel comfortable doing that.
If they're using edit summaries, recommend the complainant open a discussion section at article talk and put a link to it in the edit summary when reverting a mobile editor.
Try p-blocking from article space? I've been doing this when it's a mobile-only editor who has never edited a talk or their own user talk. No idea if it's been at all effective in helping them discover talk pages, I should start keeping track.
Extraneous
I don't know if any of the following are possible, but maybe they need discussion somewhere:
Is there any way we could automatically email a notification (with a link to the section, not just the page) without someone having to email them themselves? Could that be developed?
Come up with some way to strongly encourage mobile users to enable email when they register.
Come up with some way to strongly encourage mobile users to enable notifications when they register.
Come up with some way to require mobile users to create their user talk when they register, and automatically explain what's going to be happening there and why they should keep an eye on it.
I've come across this recently; apparently mobile users don't get a notification saying they have a talk page message. A few years ago there was a discussion about introducing a 'soft block' forcing an editor to review their talk page; another option would be more technical, changing the code so that mobile editors receive the same 'you have a new message' notification as those on desktop. GiantSnowman12:47, 11 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@GiantSnowman, a soft block helps them discover their talk? Or do you mean the same way a p-block from article space would -- by encouraging them to try to find help somewhere? —valereee (talk) 13:03, 11 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, let me clarify - IIRC there was a proposal a few years ago to introduce a new type of block/blocking mechanism which basically forced editors to review their talk page before they were unblocked. Does that make sense? GiantSnowman13:44, 11 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Nthep, I'll just collapse the extraneous stuff here, probably shouldn't have even brought it up. I really just more wanted to discuss what we should do here at ANI when these come up. —valereee (talk) 12:56, 11 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Does anyone know if a blocked mobile editor will see the block log message? That could be a way to communicate: we create something like {{Blocked proxy}} that tells them about talk pages. – Joe (talk) 13:25, 11 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Joe Roe: Since June, custom block messages are also shown in the Android app (see screenshot). That's just the block summary message, though, so I don't think templates would work. Custom block message in the Android app – Rummskartoffel17:28, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I wrote an edit filter to communicate with iOS app users. See 1139 . It 'exploits' a bug in the iOS app that allows edit filter disallow message pagenames to be visible to the end user. I believe a similar approach with Android app users is now possible but I haven't gotten around to testing it yet (mainly because I've lost my Android device I used for testing). Articlespace blocks do not help, because the editors cannot see the block log messages (they will see "You have been blocked from editing" if on iOS; or "You have been blocked for vandalism ..." on Android, regardless of the block reason). As of the time I wrote the edit filter, that was the only possible way to deliver a message to the app users onwiki; that may have changed since, as I believe the WMF is working on some of the WP:THEYCANTHEARYOU bugs. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 14:14, 11 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Let me try putting it a bit less technical... The effect of the filter is that, to a named editor, they will see this whenever they try to edit outside user talk. If there's a willing Android user we can test whether this concept works on Android, too. In theory a similar approach should since phab:T276139 is resolved. If both these work, admins should have an interim solution to communicate with app editors while the WMF works on proper fixes. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 15:54, 11 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
ProcrastinatingReader, "They will see ... "You have been blocked for vandalism ..." on Android, regardless of the block reason" - WTF? Obviously an app can't violate policy (in this case, calling good faith edits vandalism without evidence is a personal attack) but that's completely unacceptable. I have already commented at the WMF village pump, and fully endorse Cullen328's view that the standard desktop site is perfectly usable on a smartphone or tablet and there is no requirement for these broken apps to exist. Ritchie333(talk)(cont)17:31, 11 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It is possible there's been a fix recently (phab:T276139 and phab:T276147 are now marked as "Resolved") but I'm not sure if the version has been deployed to the Play Store yet. But the Wikipedia app has been in the iOS app store for 3 years now, and in the Android one for much longer. So probably this has went on undetected for years. God knows why the app team thought these were good assumptions to make, and it is one example of where better communication between development teams and community members would've led to better results. Perhaps these Movement Charter initiatives will be a step in that direction? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 17:43, 11 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
ProcrastinatingReader, the mobile site isn't much better in this regard. You have to press "see more" to even see the block reason. The "take me to another page" suggestion that just points to Special:Random is borderline trolling. (task filed: phab:T289416) Yes, I want to edit some random page, that's a proper substitute.. Never mind that Special:Random will never take you to a talk page, so it's futile if you've been blocked from article space.. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 07:14, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I have & always will be hardcore when it comes to editors not having or refusing to create an account. As for mobile editors? IMHO they should be barred from editing Wikipedia, until the create an account. GoodDay (talk) 16:06, 11 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I say if technically possible that we block clients that don't get talk page notifications from editing with an apology(Sorry your client is not supported for editing on Wikipedia, you are welcome to edit using a browser). Talk page usage is mandatory. The devs of these clients need a wake up call that this is core and mandatory functionality, not an optional feature. HighInBCNeed help? Just ask.02:16, 12 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
There is an edit filter to tag edits as "mobile", and edit filters can block editing. So I think it is possible to have edit filters react to useragents. HighInBCNeed help? Just ask.00:12, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
There's a tradeoff to automatically blocking in anticipation that they might cause problems that need a talk page. Potentially productive editors, e.g. gnomes, won't get to edit. However, we pre-emptively avoid good-faith but problematic editors having a bad experience. Pick your poison. I don't think we have user data to objectively know which is worse.—Bagumba (talk) 03:08, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Something similar to what GiantSnowman mentioned above already exists for AWB bots. Whenever the talk page of an actively running AWB bot is edited, it automatically shutsdown the bot. The operator then has to login from the bot account and visit the talk page, only then can the bot be run again. This does not add anything to the block log. Perhaps something similar can be done for mobile users? Like whenever there is a new message in their talk page, an edit filter prevents them from making any edits until they have seen it. The table at WP:THEYCANTHEARYOU shows custom edit filter message is the better communication medium available for now. Users can then be directed to the desktop site to view messages and continue editing. ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ (talk) 10:42, 12 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I've had issues with/warned (multiple times) a user with this exact ongoing problem- AFAIK, nothing concrete was decided, other than that the user wouldn't be blocked as they don't receive any warnings/messages. Seems a bit dumb to me personally, as the use is still continuing with their minor edits and is persistently adding unsourced content/information. But basically, due to this issue, it seems like they won't be sanctioned/blocked from their disruptive minor edits/unsourced edits.
I see the benefits in a technical solution but we do need to be careful not to dissuade good faith edits as far as possible; in many parts of the world mobile access is the only way that people can and do access the internet, you risk breaking 'anyone can edit Wikipedia' if you try to 'pro-actively' solve this problem by restricting edits from one particular type of device, and soft-blocking when they have an unread template could be abused to block an editor from the site without due process. I would also explicitly exclude at least Extended Confirmed users from any restrictions on editing, possibly autoconfirmed too, depending on how draconian the restrictions are. But surely the rule against editing disruptively applies regardless of whether they see the notifications? One could be blocked without warning anyway, then this seems like a strange excuse not to block someone JeffUK (talk) 13:16, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That's probably not the best example. Skimming the case, it seems the OP (since blocked for socking) was complaining that a user was not providing citations, but another user vouched that the edits were verifiable and correct, even if not cited. It would be a different case if the user was adding incorrect statements that also were not cited. Per WP:BLOCK: Blocks serve to protect the project from harm, and reduce likely future problems. Unfortunately, given the bug/feature involving talk notifications for some mobile users, the community needs to decide in the interim when a block is needed to protect the project, even if it might be a good-faith editor who didn't know any better.—Bagumba (talk) 03:32, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Problem editing pattern by Kevin McE: part 2
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Final warning and Main Page topic ban, which includes Main Page-specific processes like DYK. And To be clear Kevin: I understand you proposed this option, but be aware, your next stop is likely a community ban, not just an indef block. I hope you take this as an opportunity to do better. - jc3719:28, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
A topic ban got imposed on User:Kevin McE (Let's start with a weird topic ban: Kevin McE, you are not to comment on anything related to Alica Schmidt or the editors whom you have chastised pertaining to that matter. That includes User:Schwede66, User:Maile66, and User:Joseph2302, and any other involved user, with or without numbers. In addition, it is clear that editors here are troubled by your tone, which (I agree) seems to betray a battleground attitude, and that may, if it continues, lead to a block. Thank you. Drmies) followed by a 60-hour block shortly thereafter. We wanted to leave the discussion open to see what happens when the block expires but it got archived. Well, the block has expired and Kevin McE is at it again. So it seems we need to continue with this discussion. Schwede6621:30, 12 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
And I might as well voice my opinion on the matter. The diff shows a clear breach of the topic ban and the appropriate response is an indef block. Given that, I see no need to also analyse the various accusations and poor conduct contained in that post. Schwede6621:37, 12 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure yet whether the TBan was enacted properly - I could easily have missed something, and have asked Drmies about it, but if it wasn't properly enacted then any breach isn't actionable. That's a bit of a side issue however, because the main issue is Kevin McE's uncollaborative battleground approach, which he seems unwilling to accept is an issue even after a block. I would support an indefinite block for threatening to repeat behaviour that is hostile, corrosive to the community, and ultimately disruptive. An alternative might be a TBan from main page related content, since that seems (at least in this instance) to be what he has got so angry about. GirthSummit (blether)21:52, 12 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Paperwork or not, Girth Summit, this repetitive anger is too much. BTW, the paperwork isn't all that simple. There was broad agreement on the topic ban that I suggested (OK, imposed), but ANI threads tend to get archived, not closed. Anyway, "actionable" or not, the hits keep on coming. BTW, for anyone who hasn't looked at all the details, Kevin McE got blocked for a simple harassing edit, this one. Drmies (talk) 22:04, 12 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Drmies, don't get me wrong - I think your block was necessary, and that another one probably is since he intends to keep right on doing the same stuff. I'm just saying that we should act on the underlying problem, not a breach of a ban that hasn't been logged. GirthSummit (blether)22:09, 12 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No, I know, GS, I got you--I just wish we weren't dealing with an editor who makes it necessary to jump through all these hoops. I mean, apparently STOP IT isn't enough. Personally, I think the ongoing battleground problems and incivilities are enough for in indef block. Oh, Mackensen agreed with that, on my talk page, so we're at four now. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 22:16, 12 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Indef block - he still doesn't get it. We need to consider our vast and varied editing base. We have school children editing Wikipedia. We have university students who are taking it as a course - and not always getting everything perfect. Our encyclopedia is open to everybody in every part of the world, every age group, every learning step on how to do this, every demographic. On the talk page of Drmies, KevinE wrote, "I will not be tolerant of people trying to contribute to Wikipedia beyond their competence, and when they persist in erroneous and unencyclopaedic 'contributions', that can only be to the detriment of the project, I will not pussyfoot around telling them so: encouraging poor editors by kindness is not going to make Wikipedia better than it is, and taking fools lightly only make Wikipedia appear foolish." Based on Talk:Kalākaua coinage, I guess he means me and Wehwalt. And both of us admins, who went through a public assessment and vote by way of the required Request for Adminship. And may I say that nobody - absolutely nobody - has produced as many Featured articles as Wehwalt. That makes Wehwalt pick of the litter. Yet, KevinMcE couldn't even "tolerate" him. Kevin McE has been on Wikipedia 15 years. If he hasn't learned tolerance of other editors in that time, when will he? — Maile (talk) 01:01, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Pending - the editor in question edits later in the UTC day, but I would like them to provide their views on both the TBAN and why they shouldn't be indefinitely blocked for recurring negative behaviour. Nosebagbear (talk) 08:53, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I see that they're still throwing accusations at me and trying to discredit my edits on the page they're topic banned from. And mislabelling the sources there to do so (the source [1] says she was selected for the relay, and is listed in the "FRAUEN"= women section, so clearly not saying she was ever in the mixed relay team), so the article was originally correct). I will not be tolerant of people trying to contribute to Wikipedia beyond their competence doesn't sound like someone who wants to work collaboratively on here, making accusations about editors who've had hundreds of articles on the front page. Joseph2302 (talk) 14:11, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm happy for people (including native German speakers) to review Alica Schmidt and tell me if the sources don't match text (although I was given the source for that from a German speaker, and I believe from translation that it's all good). And if the user will actually adhere to the interaction/topic-ban, then I don't have a problem with them continuing to edit. But if they're going to continue to grind this axe about this article, then they're clearly not here to contribute positively. Joseph2302 (talk) 14:24, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I hope that comments here will not be taken as comprising a breach of topic ban: I am at a loss as to how I am considered to be given a chance to explain myself if I cannot refer to the things that might need explaining. And yet it seems that Drmies responded to my comments intended to be specifically to him not by responding to me, or making the correction I requested in article space, but by inviting a bunch of people to consider themselves offended by me.
I would have thought that trying to get articles to accurately represent the truth is precisely what all of us are here to do for the benefit of the encyclopaedia, and that seeking accuracy in article space should not be described as "grinding an axe". The Google translation of the article does not specify whether Schmidt was being considered for the women's relay or the mixed event, and unless you (Joseph) are confident that your ability to translate German is better than that of that software, then both your initial presumption that it was the women's 4x400 that she was selected for, and your reversion of my edit to the article, were, to your knowledge at least, unsourced. The source referred to by Joseph in this discussion is about selection for the European indoor championships that took place in Poland in March, and so is a total red herring as far as this discussion is concerned (Maybe Joseph will be willing to apologise for accusing me of mislabelling sources in that regard, and will apologise for introducing erroneous argument to this discussion).
I do not believe that I will ever consider it reasonable behaviour to make an accusation against someone without being willing to either defend that accusation or to retract it. I would hope that Wikipedia would want to hold its contributors to at least that standard of behaviour.
I would be intrigued to read how anyone considers Wikipedia to be improved by editors acting in areas that are beyond their competence, which seems to be defended here. I have certainly tried to ensure that I am informed as best I can be (in limited time) before I make any change to article space: I would hope and trust that all those involved in this discussion would want to say the same of themselves. Kevin McE (talk) 15:29, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Unless you (Joseph) are confident that your ability to translate German is better than that of that software Considering I was given the source by a German speaker, I trust it more than you or I using a translation tool. editors acting in areas that are beyond their competence this is the second time you've said this, with no evidence. This won't help your case. I'm happy for a native German speaker to review this source and tell me if I'm actually wrong, but I don't believe I am. And I'm certainly not "editing above my competency", whatever that means. Joseph2302 (talk) 15:46, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Now that you are aware that you referred to selection for the European Indoors as evidence of her selection for the Olympics, you may wish to reconsider that last statement. Kevin McE (talk) 15:51, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No I didn't. They're two different competitions with two different sources, I never equated the two together- just because the 2 things were in the same paragraph, that doesn't mean they that one implies the other, this is the permlink that proves this. Your insistence on throwing shade on people rather than actually doing anything useful for the encyclopedia is tiresome. Joseph2302 (talk) 15:55, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I really cannot follow the reasoning of your last comment. As to your request that a competent German speaker review the source, I have asked@Gerda Arendt:, a Main Page stalwart who I presume is known to you, to look at the source in question.
In the meantime, do you have any evidence that at the time of your accusation (diff provided above) I had accused you of anything? Kevin McE (talk) 16:11, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Although Gerda has not yet replied, Jo-Jo Eumerus, who self identifies as a native German speaker, is active on MP discussions and is a sysop with nearly 80,000 edits has done so:"I don't see a clear indication on that page on whether it was mixed 4x400m or women's 4x400m. It says she qualified for the sprint, nothing about whether she would participate or not."Kevin McE (talk) 16:41, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I was the user who originally found that RBB24 source for Joseph2302. It says "the 400m runner Alica Schmidt qualified for the relay". The next sentence confirms that it was planned that she should run, because it says about someone else "she only participates as a substitute". There is no explicit clarification of which relay, other than that it is one involving 400m, but the standard assumption a German reader would make is that this is the 4x400m women's relay. —Kusma (talk) 16:51, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Is there any reason why a German reader would assume that it refers to being in the women's relay rather than one of the two women (plus a substitute) in the mixed relay? Kevin McE (talk) 17:04, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It says "the relay", which defaults to the known relay event, not the new mixed one. Nothing specifically German about that, I admit. —Kusma (talk) 17:18, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I would have to consider that to be supposition rather than sourced. The contention that there is a source that says that she was due to compete in the women's relay seems unproven. Kevin McE (talk) 17:26, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Talk:Alica Schmidt should explain it. Does German lack a distinction between selection and qualification, because in the context of relay teams in Olympic athletics, nations qualify, and the national federation selects the runners. The idea that an athlete qualifies for a relay makes no sense, and (unless the language lacks the distinction) points to at best a lack of precision in that source. Kevin McE (talk) 18:01, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Nope. Hook that was reasonably correct was approved, got changed through the DYK process into something that was wrong. Happens all the time. Worst that happened to one of my hooks was that Lao She was presented as female after a good faith copyedit. It's a bit embarrassing, but the thing to do is make a quick correction via WP:ERRORS. Then the matter can be closed. —Kusma (talk) 18:30, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, the reply feature quietly edit-conflicted. "Nope" was my answer to "Talk:Alica Schmidt should explain it". As to the rest of your comment, I think "she qualified for the relay" can mean "she made the cut for the national selection". In German and in English. —Kusma (talk) 18:33, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Please allow me to provide some clarifications:
Kevin McE, you hoped that "comments here will not be taken as comprising a breach of topic ban". No, you are absolutely safe on that front. You are being discussed here and you need the ability to comment, respond, and put your case forward.
This ANI case is not about whether homepage content was wrong or whose responsibility it should have been to prevent this. The discussion on German sources and what it says in them is off-topic.
This ANI case is firstly about whether there was a topic and interaction ban in place (and from the brief discussion in the thread above, there appears to be consensus that this was not the case).
This ANI case is secondly about how Kevin McE's interacts with fellow editors.
OK, but Joseph said that he would engage with me here about his accusation against me, and so far, despite specific invitation to do so, he has not. I believe that somebody who has been accused should have the right to demand that the accuser presents themselves as accountable for that.
Also, I had raised the matter of Drmies bringing others into the conversation rather than making the requested change to the Schmidt article, and not being permitted to discuss the necessary correction to that article anywhere else, I believe I have proved that the alterations are necessary for accuracy in the only place open to me to do so.
But with the proviso that somebody corrects the erroneous article and that Joseph either retracts or justifies his accusation, I am happy to move on. Kevin McE (talk) 19:02, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I don't think that's the point. Accusing another editor of incompetence is a big deal. We've all met editors that fail WP:CIR, but they're usually newbies, people with language issues or persistent POV-warriors. Not experienced Wikipedians with thousands of positive contributions. Yet you did it originally in the lead up to your block (amongst other things), you then did it again on Drmies' talkpage, and you've done it again in this very thread. What on earth are you thinking? Black Kite (talk)19:18, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Citing an article on selection for the European Indoor Championships as proof that an athlete was selected for a particular event in the Olympics 4 months later does not indicate... what shall I call it then? Adequate understanding of the subject matter? Does somebody disagree with that, or that that is what happened in this thread? Kevin McE (talk) 21:02, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
(EC) Maybe you don't appreciate the gravity of the situation, Kevin McE. You may as well move on from your content dispute. What we are all waiting for is some response on the underlying behavioural pattern variously described as "harassment", "intolerant", "recurring negative behaviour", "attacking", "abusive tone", "galling ... behavior", "hounding". In case this hasn't quite got through to you yet – there is an expectation by your fellow editors that your conduct is such that you could not possibly be described by those phrases. So you better give some clear commitment that you will change your behaviour for the better or failing that, I predict that "moving on from here" will happen in the form of an indef block. Schwede6619:28, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
So I will repeat what I have already said:
That I consider those who have positioned themselves to edit the Main Page, the most visible portal of the project that is directly linked from every page, should be help responsible for the highest standards, concomitant with the mutual congratulations which they lavish upon each other;
That unresearched changes from an agreed main page text (a hook in this case) is not responsible use of the authority given to somebody operating at that stage of such a high profile project;
That edits made without an understanding of the subject matter (or of the English language, or of encyclopaedic form and tone) are not helpful and that there is little to be gained from acting as though they are;
That when an editorial sub-community closes ranks, they can become very aggressive, even if unintentionally so, to somebody challenging them to see the style of their processes from the point of view of an outsider;
That people who lack the humility to acknowledge an error has been made are not helpful for as long as they persist in that attitude.
And in relation to that last,yes, I was intemperate in my language, and regret that, but I had been frustrated several times in the preceding few days, in several issues, and in seeking to find out what had happened in this case, over the Main Page, which I occasionally visit and am frequently very disappointed at the content of. Kevin McE (talk) 21:02, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Citing an article on selection for the European Indoor Championships as proof that an athlete was selected for a particular event in the Olympics 4 months later does not indicate For the second time in this thread (and I think the fourth time in all discussions): I didn't use the European Indoor Championships source to assume anything. I used one source for that Championship, and one source for the Olympics. Cut the crap creating lies about me. Even if you were correct about the one thing you've spent hours arguing (the issue seems inconclusive on that though), the harassment of multiple users on their talkpages and multiple other threads is not acceptable. And using this AN thread to re-argue with me over one line of text, instead of actually reflecting on your own aggressive attitude just proves to me that you're not here to collaborate. Joseph2302 (talk) 00:14, 14 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Kevin McE's lengthy comment here only strengthens me in my opinion. They filled up paragraphs and paragraphs about some translation matter (and unfortunately got Joseph2302 to respond, and got others dragged in as well), but none of that matters here. In fact, I hope some uninvolved admin will come along and hat all those comments. What's key here is this: "And yet it seems that Drmies responded to my comments intended to be specifically to him not by responding to me, or making the correction I requested in article space, but by inviting a bunch of people to consider themselves offended by me." The first part is, in a way, correct; I was not interested in Kevin McE responding to my request for others to weigh in, also because (and this thread proves it) they have a tendency to dig deeper when they're in a hole. But it was never about some "correction" someone requested, and saying that I invited others "to consider themselves offended" by him is just a ruse: I pinged a few admins who, perhaps in varying degrees, saw serious problems with McE's behavior. And it seems that they haven't changed their minds. Drmies (talk) 20:20, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
So if I am aware of an error in an article, and I am not permitted to edit that article, is it not the responsible thing to use the page I can edit to seek improvement of Wikipedia? It is not my fault if others appear more determined to defend what is there than to concede the fats of the matter. And Joseph had specifically identified this page as the one where he would engage with me, so why should I not take him up on that invitation? (even if he has not taken me up on mine). Kevin McE (talk) 21:15, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I find it worrying that the person who assumes the right to call judgement on an issue is "not interested" in the person being judged having any say over the matter. If I were accused of murder I would be more clearly invited to respond.
Looking again, I see that the "inviting others to consider themselves offended" was inappropriate, but I cannot believe that the inclusion of Schwede in that set of pings was a search for a disinterested party for an objective opinion. I should not have extended that to the rest of the pings, and for that I apologise. I do believe though that responding to me would be the appropriate response to my post to your page. Kevin McE (talk) 21:15, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Kevin McE, I haven't looked at any of the sourcing, and I don't speak German, but I'm going to do you the courtesy of assuming that you are 100% correct in everything you have said about the content and sourcing, and that everyone else was 100% wrong. Based on that assumption, it is nevertheless my view that your actions were completely out of line: you were condescending and arrogant, and accused your colleagues of either incompetence or a disregard for the quality of our content. That is unacceptable. Being collegiate =/= pussyfooting around. Being polite =/= suffering fools gladly.
This project is in dire need of good editors, but you seem to think either that insulting people will make them better editors, or that if you drive them away from a particular part of the project, they will be replaced by a ready supply of better editors. They won't: it will just leave fewer people working in that space, who will probably make more mistakes because of the increased workload. If you care about the quality of our content, you need to nurture people; give them constructive feedback in a positive way. That doesn't mean ignore their mistakes, it means bring problems to their attention, talk to them politely about how they could have acted differently, and encourage a positive environment that people might actually want to work in.
At this point, if you were to acknowledge some shortcomings in your conduct and convincingly commit to do better, I could see myself opposing sanctions: I respect the body of work you've done here, and I wouldn't throw that away lightly. However, if you're not able to see that there is a problem in the way that you approach people who you think have made a mistake, I genuinely think that a collaborative project like this is the wrong fit for you. Please reflect on that. GirthSummit (blether)23:00, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
If the user accepts actually following the topic and interaction ban, I would be willing to accept something less than an indef block for them. And that is despite their repeated personal attacks both previously and through lying about me multiple times on this thread. Joseph2302 (talk) 00:14, 14 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Although considering that for the last week, all this editor has done is argue about this one sentence of text, I don't see how they're here to positively contribute to the encylopedia. In that time, despite my alleged inability to edit anything, I've managed to create 3 articles, despite this harassment. Really says something about which of us is a useful editor, and which of us is just grinding an axe.....Joseph2302 (talk) 00:17, 14 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for crossing out what would have been another false accusation about me. As to my "lying about you several times", I will withdraw myself from Wikipedia and request a permablock if you can provide proof of my doing so, if, and only if, at the same time you can provide evidence of where, prior to your accusing me of doing so, I blamed you for the MP error. But if you cannot, I would consider this another false accusation against me, and I would ask you, as I have before, to retract it and apologise. Kevin McE (talk) 09:42, 14 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Girth Summit has it absolutely right. Kevin's been told he was bloody rude, and his response has essentially been "well, I was correct on the substance of the issue" which is a complete non-sequitur. A very large part of content work is reviewing stuff someone else has written; and most of us manage to provide such feedback on a regular basis without offending half a dozen people. If he's not willing to undertake to be more collegial, a block and/or a main-page TBAN might be indicated. Vanamonde (Talk)08:13, 14 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I hope I had made clear above, I accept that I responded intemperately, and I have recognised and apologised for my response to Drmies' pings (although I don't think he will persuade me that his response was the best one). I do believe that there is a problem with scrutiny of MP content: not that there are not several structures, but that there is a small group of editors there who are too willing to take each other's work on trust and permit changes outside of the system of checks and balances that does exist; I also believe that there is a culture there of piling on to anyone who is somewhat outside that trusted group suggesting that there is a problem there.
I do not accept that it is acceptable to make accusations and then refuse to back up said accusation.
And yes, I need to dial it back and not get affronted by errors in Wikipedia, however they were introduced, and so I need to moderate my form of addressing those who introduce errors. I just think that this project could be so much better than it is, and suspect that that would be the case if WP:CIR were given a lot more prominence than WP:Anyone can edit. Kevin McE (talk) 09:42, 14 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, that goes some way to addressing my concerns. I do not think I can support a block at this point. That said, I strongly suggest you stop making any reference to WP:CIR with respect to errors on the main page. It's bloody offensive. Aside from the fact that it's in no way a policy, CIR discusses editors who tend to be a net negative to the encyclopedia, despite good faith efforts to help. It isn't at all helpful with respect to occasional errors, or choices that were debatably errors, made by users with years of dedicated and helpful contributions. The WP:Anyone can edit philosophy might fairly be blamed for our neverending school-IP vandalism problem; it has nothing to do with who curates main-page content. Vanamonde (Talk)09:52, 14 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
But Vanamonde93, "I just think that this project could be so much better than it is, and suspect that that would be the case if WP:CIR were given a lot more prominence than WP:Anyone can edit"--doesn't that suggest that Kevin McE's counterpart in that discussion was incompetent? It still spells "I was right". Drmies (talk) 16:11, 14 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I have expressed an opinion about the overall operation of Wikipedia. I did not have any individual in mind in that comment. It is possible to attribute ill-will to almost any opinion that anyone ever expresses: I hope that such projection is not going to be a principle on which conclusions are to be reached here. Kevin McE (talk) 23:54, 14 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Drmies: and others, the issue here is lack of basic civility towards other editors, regardless of the competence of other editors. That, and the unmitigated hubris of any editor who had led themself to believe that the end justifies the means. Wikipedia:Arbcom exists as a necessity because abusive editors who are technically correct on one thing or another, were overlooked on behavior until ... well, about where this is right now. Editors who mistreat others, who can't get through a discussion without laying aside civility, should not be excused. Eventually, that editor ends up at Arbcom, several times often. Once it starts to be Arbcom level, the offending editors are often ones who have been around long enough to have a sort of fan club of other editors who make excuses for that behavior. Once you start making excuses for behavior - because, after all, they were technically correct - where does it end? Nobody likes to be a doormat. And if this mistreatment of others is not resolved here, I can see this making it up to ARBCOM in one form or another, where it will drag on and on. Nip this behavior now, please.— Maile (talk) 17:06, 14 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
"Eventually, that editor ends up at Arbcom, several times often. Once it starts to be Arbcom level, the offending editors are often ones who have been around long enough to have a sort of fan club of other editors who make excuses for that behavior." That is not the case with me. I hope that whatever conclusions are drawn here are to be drawn on the basis of what I have said and done, not some unspecified precedent that someone thinks I am following. Kevin McE (talk) 23:54, 14 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That is exactly the case with you. Are you still missing the point, that this whole long discussion of you is about how you treat other editors? Snippy posts, and treating other editors as if they were your subordinates in knowledge and skill. You come across as having no tolerance for others, and are very combative. Many, if not most, of the cases at Arbcom are about an editor's conduct towards other editors. This whole long thread here, is about how you treat other editors. That, and the fact that you're absolutely sure you're right, when you're not. This is about your treatment of other editors. — Maile (talk) 02:09, 15 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The opening comment says the editor had a topic ban imposed on them, followed by a 60 hour block (presumably for violating that ban). However, they don't appear to be subject to any bans at Wikipedia:Editing restrictions and the ANI discussion didn't have any closure, it seems? Is the editor actually subject to a TBAN or was that Drmies' advice/proposal because they seem to have issues in the area discussed? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 00:08, 15 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Several of the comments are condescending and belittling towards other editors. It doesn't really matter whether you're right or wrong on the underlying content issue. And TBH, when you attack another editor's competence you generally put them on the defensive, which makes it harder to get anything done. For all the time sinking and animosity generated, if Kevin just pinged a German speaking editor in the first place to get clarification (even if he was certain), or just came across a bit less presumptuous perhaps (probably?) the events would've went differently. Similar for the other issues. It's plainly obvious here too, for example. You don't have to attack someone else's (editing) ability to get content changed, or to get them to agree to your proposal. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 00:33, 15 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Assuming the interaction ban was valid, they also violated it in Special:Diff/1038487517 (by editing the same part of an article that I'd edited, which isn't allowed in a 1-way interaction ban). Joseph2302 (talk) 17:45, 15 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I had no knowledge that you had edited there. As can clearly be seen in my contributions history, cycling is one of my main interests, and Podmore has been a huge recent story in the cycling community. Am I to check the edit history of every page I look at? Kevin McE (talk) 20:52, 15 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Indef block – I've mulled this over for a while and have come to the conclusion that removal of edit privileges is the only sensible way forward. Several editors have tried to get Kevin McE to see that his interactions with other editors need to fundamentally change. I see no evidence that he has taken that on board. To the contrary, this very thread contains inappropriate conduct from two days ago: I just think that this project could be so much better than it is, and suspect that that would be the case if WP:CIR were given a lot more prominence than WP:Anyone can edit.Maile66 has summed it up well and I agree that the issue will not go away. Our choices are to let it linger (for ANI or ARBCOM having to resolve it later) or to deal with it now. Yes, the editor has a longstanding history with this project and has produced good content. But their conduct pushes other editors out. Overall, that's a net negative and we should put a stop to this. The poor behaviour is not topic-specific; it's often triggered by MP content but extends into other areas. Therefore, a TBAN can't deal with it and a block is the way to resolve this. Schwede6601:55, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, reiterating what I have said to Kevin McE above, if he doesn't change his pattern of interaction with other actors, this is a sure path to Arbcom. His response was, "That is not the case with me. I hope that whatever conclusions are drawn here are to be drawn on the basis of what I have said and done ... " What he's said and done is precisely the issue. — Maile (talk) 10:25, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This doesn't seem like ArbCom material to me, or even on that trajectory. The community is entirely able to handle this problem, and could, but it doesn't seem like a bygone that Kevin can remedy his own approach. All the incidents also seem related so a well-defined topic ban is also possible, if that fails. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 10:31, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
He's been with Wikipedia for 15 years, and has been the same type of editor for 15 years. This is not something that just came up, and is not isolated to one topic. Everybody else is stupid and incompetent but him. Do we wait for his 20-year anniversary before we act? — Maile (talk) 10:47, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The evidence is largely entirely limited to some recent events (i.e. this month). If you have evidence this has went on for 15 years, now would be a good time to present. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 10:57, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This thread has bounced around, from ANI to the talk page of here, to being moved to an individual talk page, to here. But the above is how this started. And if you want other evidence, run it down yourself by looking at his editing history. He treats everybody with disrespect. He didn't just wake up one morning and change his approach. — Maile (talk)
You're asking for an indef here, and the suggestion of ArbCom suggests you're not happy with the action/response being taken. If, as you claim, this is a problem that has occurred for 15 years, it's really on you to gather the evidence and make the complaint. It's not really reasonable to expect others to trawl through the history of an editor with 41,000 edits. ArbCom, too, says isn't in the investigation business. As for his talk page archives, they are shallow so I did look into them, but it's not too helpful that several comments don't link to the preceding incident and/or diffs. The warnings do indicate the problem may be a long-time one, but what you're asking be done is tantamount to railroading IMO. A proper discussion needs to be had to implement appropriate conduct remedies, and that starts with the proper presentation of evidence that supports the claims made. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 11:34, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This was the original complaint before a bot archived it while the case was still open. Original post Let's see if this archived link works. After this got archived, we took it over to the talk page of Drmies who moved it to this page (I think). It isn't that I didn't provide the evidence. It's just it kept being moved all over the place, possibly losing part of it (or not). It's getting a little hard to keep track of the evidence, but it's there. If this link opens as it should, there is at least one of the listed incidents that goes back to 2006, not just something that came up recently. Please take note of a quote where he has accused an editor of "the height of irresponsibility, inconsistency and cowardice" ProcrastinatingReader if the harrassment of Schwede66 were a one-time incident, it would never have made it to ANI, or much of anyplace else. A first-time offense usually gets a warning, maybe a temporary block slap on the wrist. Look at all the posts above. People are not commenting here without a background history on this pattern. — Maile (talk) 21:57, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Maile66: I had already read that ANI, the 4 linked discussions from this month (although not the 5th, from 2018), and the one at Drmies' talk. People are not commenting here without a background history on this pattern. If you want a block by WP:CBAN (ie, via a consensus of editors who are not involved in the underlying dispute), you should provide the background history of an apparent 15 year pattern. If you just want an uninvolved admin already familiar with the issues to indef, then I dunno what we're doing here? An admin can/should just indef per their own research and, if they deem it appropriate, notify AN? But that's now largely moot, as I think Pawnkingthree's provided evidence shows a pattern. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 00:50, 17 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Indef block Continued WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality, this time unsolicited and days after block expired: I will not be tolerant of people trying to contribute to Wikipedia beyond their competence, and when they persist in erroneous and unencyclopaedic 'contributions', that can only be to the detriment of the project, I will not pussyfoot around telling them so: encouraging poor editors by kindness is not going to make Wikipedia better than it is, and taking fools lightly only make Wikipedia appear foolish.[10] Persistent WP:INCIVILITY, absence of WP:GOODFAITH, and refusal to WP:DROPTHESTICK. The nuances of the TBAN are, frankly, immaterial at this point. (Grievance in a nutshell: A DYK hook by Joseph2302 was changed by someone else post-approval to include a MOS:DATED statement about a future event, which ultimately didn't happen. Kevin McE blames Joseph2302 for not following the DYK hook cradle to grave. Kevin McE hunts anyone in that DYK's chain for not catching what Kevin McE reported at the eleventh hour.)—Bagumba (talk) 04:51, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I am really at a loss as to how I can explain myself, and defend myself if I am then going to be accused of refusal to drop an issue. If you have specific questions to ask me or commitments to ask of me, then I shall answer them, but otherwise I shall be an observer. Kevin McE (talk) 10:41, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe you can't explain yourself. You could stop pretending you're an observer when you keep commenting here, trying to turn a thread about your behavior into some content discussion about something. What you could do is accept from other editors that they have serious problems with your editing style and your personal attacks. You could accept, for instance, that the comments that have been highlighted here are personal attacks (because they are). Or that community members don't appreciate your promise to continue treating editors you think did something wrong will be denigrated and attacked. You could, you know, apologize to Joseph 2302, whom you seemed to have pushed into despair. But you just keep on keeping on, believing that you are right. So again, that's enough for me to say, again, indef. Drmies (talk) 22:53, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Can I again ask Joseph, or you on his behalf, to explain what I need to apologise to him for, with diffs, because I can only find false accusations from him against me, which he has failed to substantiate. If he has genuine grounds for a grievance against me, I would of course. Kevin McE (talk) 08:05, 17 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure if this is the place Drmies, but it's probably a good idea to mention that the short block you imposed was the second one he'd received. He was blocked April 14, 2013, by (now retired) John for BLP violations, and unblocked a few hours later by Orlady with the edit summary "On expectation that Kevin McE and John will discuss their differences on article talk page, rather than warring." Block Log, so we know this issue has been going on since 2013, documented in his block log. So, he's been at this edit warring for at least eight years. Even more reason for an Indef. — Maile (talk) 00:57, 17 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Well ... competence: noun "the ability to do something successfully or efficiently." Not understanding what is acceptable in a situation, and what is not demonstrates a lack of competence. Kevin has time and again demonstrated that he's inefficient at editing, and unsuccessful at collaborating with others. My conclusion would be that a WP:CIRindef block would be the best path forward for our project. If and when Kevin's situational awareness expands to the point where they understand how they failed at proper behavior, and is then willing to commit to improving said behavior in the future, then an unblock could be arranged. — Ched (talk) 01:56, 17 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
We're a collaborative project, and this is someone we're struggling to collaborate with. When brought to AN, the right reaction for him would have been to reassure the community about why and how he's easy to work with. Quibbling is the wrong reaction: it shows someone who puts a low value on social skills and who doesn't see any problem with their approach or any reason to change. Some people you can't work with.—S MarshallT/C 16:41, 17 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Well, with the number of times that I have been misrepresented and misquoted in all this, the refusal of all participants here to answer my questions or to explain what lies and accusations I have made against Joseph, the blind eye that has been turned to my apology and undertakings herein, and the near impossibility of responding to much of what has been said without such a response being taken as evidence of quibbling, I am not optimistic, but I would hope that whoever calls judgement would be willing to consider what I have said in its own merits, and not be swayed by the bullying piling-on of the responses to it. Kevin McE (talk) 09:40, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Kevin McE, you have made some comments above about how you were 'intemperate', but you have written a lot more words about how you were right on the content matter, and how you just feel that this project could be so much better, and how you think there is a cabal of editors who control the main page content and back each other up inappropriately (which is, frankly, inappropriate aspersion-casting). The thing you don't appear to have addressed properly is the fact that you were, as Vanamonde93 aptly puts it, bloody rude to Joseph2302 on the article talk page, and you were bloody rude to Schwede66 on his talk page. Those weren't just 'intemperate' comments, they were outright hostile and appear intended to belittle the recipients. I'd been hoping that you would make a statement to the effect that you understand that the way in which you went into those discussions was way out of line, and that you would undertake never to approach people with such hostility again if you think they have made a mistake. If you can't do that, I don't see how anyone could argue against an indef block (which does appear to have consensus at this point). GirthSummit (blether)13:45, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) I don't see where you've apologised to Joseph2302 for calling him a "irresponsible, insincere coward" or made any sort of commitment to improve your interactions with fellow editors, even if you feel they have made a mistake. Since you refuse to do so, I also support an indef.-- Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:51, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sadly, I see a disconnect here. He accepts no responsibility for his own harassment of other editors. The "it's not me, it's them" attitude. Or that unidentified "cabal of editors who control the main page content and back each other up." We have provided links/diffs on the behavior, which are the evidence. Again, I say indef block. Take care of this now, so it doesn't recur, or this situation will likely progress to WP:ARB. — Maile (talk) 16:35, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Kevin McE: If everything discussed above could be undone and started again, would you do anything differently? Please give a brief explanation. I see claims above about problems regarding collaboration. Do you think there might be any reasonable basis for those claims? If so, how would that be avoided in the future? Johnuniq (talk) 07:56, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Don't close this thread yet please, as we're awaiting replies to the above questions. On the issue itself, I'm really in two minds. Clearly there's no doubt that Kevin McE's tone to this point has been unacceptable, and needs to be improved. He left me a somewhat snippy message on the Alica Schmidt issue too, although I don't get easily riled by those things so I just apologised for my error and moved on. But the tone used there and on others' pages is not the way to interact collegiately with other editors, and that needs to change. On the other hand, Kevin has made *some* noises above, acknowledging the issues. And yes, Kevin hasn't apologised to editors he's offended, which is a shame, but if he's not sorry he's not sorry and I don't think we should get hung up on that. The bigger question is the future, and whether this will happen again. And as such, I'd like to see responses from Kevin McE to the points immediately above this one from Girth Summit and Johnuniq, regarding his proposals for how he will behave in the future. If he has a satisfactory plan, then I would be in favour of giving Kevin one last chance in the form of a final warning and some WP:ROPE, but with the proviso that if any issues like those above occur again, it's straight to indef. — Amakuru (talk) 09:05, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Bagumba, that is what I expect, too. When an item was first opened about this editor 14 days ago, I stated in my first post: What I learn from that is that Kevin McE lacks an insight into the abusive tone of their communication. There have been a number of attempts by several editors since to get the user to focus on their own behaviour. None of these attempts have succeeded. I have concluded that there is no insight and without it, we cannot expect any conduct improvement. Hence my view that indef is the only way forward. Schwede6620:16, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
OK. So I could throw myself prostrate before you, crying mea culpa, mea culpa; I think that would probably stretch the credibility of some here, and my dignity. More is needed.
So some opinions underlying what I did. We all have opinions, and judgement should be based on actions and undertakings, not opinions: of course the opinion of others, maybe of most, will differ.
If there is to be an active Main Page, it should be held to the highest standards. Although there are many hard working volunteers there, there is I believe a resistance to those outside that sub-community providing close scrutiny, and an acceptance within that group of what is 'good enough' rather than the very highest standard, often to keep those involved content.
That practices such as changing a hook after it has been approved are neither conducive to MP accuracy nor respectful of the procedure of approving material.
That the awarding of kudos and congratulatory notes can lead to a tacit "mutual aid" among those who value these, that is not always conducive to the highest standards (and therefore what should be a recognition of, and encouragement towards, the highest standards can lead to a lapse from those standards).
When an editor believe that an unjustified accusation has been made against him/her, it is reasonable to ask that person making the accusation to either justify that accusation or to apologise and withdraw it, and that it is not responsible behaviour for the accuser to refuse to do either.
While admirable as a goal, "anyone can edit" causes enormous problems for Wikipedia. Vandalism, failing to understand proper encyclopaedic tone, POVpushing, fanboyism, very poor English, failure to update temporary notes, ignorance of subject matter are all visible throughout Wikipedia and are all largely the result of, or exacerbated by, the freedom of anyone to edit.
So, while being true to those opinions, how do I respond to Johnuniq's question above: "If everything discussed above could be undone and started again, would you do anything differently?"
Would I have raised the MP error on the talk page of the Schmidt article? Yes, because although Talk Pages are about the article, there should, I believe, be something to address the note that is in the talk page header.
Would I have still taken Joseph to account for his template drop on my talk page and his accusation that I was 'blaming' him? Yes, because the template was not appropriate (and misrepresents WP:BLP), and I only asked him about his later involvement in it after he had said that I should have raised the matter 'days earlier'(I raised it within minutes of becoming aware of the existence of Alica Schmidt).
Would I still have raised it at WT:DYK? Yes, because although I had raised it at ERRORS it was timed out of that page very shortly after, and I believe it brought to light important procedural matters that had led to such a mistake.
Would I still have raised it at Amakuru and Schwede's talk pages? I find that hard to say, not because I support forumshopping (and I do not believe that that is what I was trying to do), but partly because Joseph told me to go to the talk pages of those who had changed the hook, partly because I suspect that MP contributors don't routinely look at the talk pages of articles that have been on MP in the days after their appearance, partly because I would prefer to point out an error quietly on someone's talkpage rather than on a more public forum, and partly because I had not at that point realised the procedural faults (faults in my perception at least, one of the opinions above) that gave rise to it merited discussion with the DYK crowd more centrally.
BUT
Would I in future drop the challenge to Joseph more quickly, and refrain from telling him what I think of that refusal? Yes, although if I am very honest more because I doubt I will get satisfaction than because I think it is right that somebody refuse to justify or retract.
Would I respond in the same accusatory (or "bloody rude") tone? No: I let annoyance get the better of me, and that was unfair to volunteers. I need to allow myself to be calmer before I type, to remember that we are all volunteers, that errors don't mean contempt for the encyclopaedia. The level of reprimand I have received here won't easily be forgotten.
Would I apologise for my tone and choice of words? I do not like the side of myself that I showed in those messages, and am sorry that I showed it, and in trying to emphasise the importance (as I saw it) of the matter, I expressed anger at what procedures allow as though they were the fault of the individuals: for those things, I apologise.
How would I deal with " people trying to contribute to Wikipedia beyond their competence, ... when they persist in erroneous and unencyclopaedic 'contributions', that can only be to the detriment of the project"? Editors need to be told what is to be expected, and deliberately unconstructive editors what is not expected, but with reference to policies and principles, and distinguishing between the edit and the editor.
So
I would point out that I have been here for many years, and I would be happy to defend any edit I have ever made in article space as having been genuinely intended (even if overturned by a consensus against me) to improve the encyclopaedia.
I was given, and abided by, a block in regard to this issue, indeed, I voluntarily extended it by several days.
I acknowledge that MP has been something of a trigger point for me: I have often gone months at a time without even looking at it, and it won't bother me if I do so again, under a topicblock if people think that just. I'll hope that someone equally pedantic holds it to the standard that I think it ought to have, but if I don't look, I won't know.
I appreciate that, if I am reprieved at this point, it will probably be under some kind of final warning.
I think this is a decent response to the concerns. I also think Kevin's final bullet point should be the case. Allow him to continue but on a "no more chances" basis, for a period of no less than six months or a year. I can sympathise with Kevin's issues with the main page (I routinely raise around three or four issues per day with it) and can empathise with his emotional response to some of the above. When all's said and done, if we can't give someone a last chance, what's the point of even debating it? The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 20:34, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. I've been vaguely following this discussion, and have known Kevin for a number of years from WT:FOOTBALL. If the issue is his reaction to the main page, then issue a final warning and topic ban from the main page. If that works, great, we gave retained a useful editor. If not, and the problems persist, then we indef. GiantSnowman20:46, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
"Would I respond in the same accusatory (or "bloody rude") tone? No: I let annoyance get the better of me, and that was unfair to volunteers." Setting aside the fact that "irresponsible, insincere coward" isn't "accusatory", it's simply an awful insult, it took us eight days to get to this non-apology apology. I am not impressed. But it seems that though we have plenty of seasoned editors saying "indef block" no one is going to pull the trigger on that, and so that old "civility parole" is the best we can get. Kevin McE, you could have just simply recognized that you were guilty of a personal attack and apologized, personally, to Joseph2302 for it. Instead we get these long paragraphs and lists of bullet points, with a half-hearted apology. It is what it is, I guess. Drmies (talk) 22:17, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
A Main Page ban (not just topic ban) would possibly be helpful to many of those who were the object of this editor's attacks. However, as I noted, my first experience with this attack mode was not because of the Main Page. It showed up on a talk page of an article being reviewed at FAC. This editor's attack had nothing to do with FAC, however. Original post We don't know who else may have been impacted similarly and not know about this complaint. Again, we need to take into consideration the wide spectrum of "anybody can edit". I hold out for a full Indef block. As one of the editors who has been through it, I share Drmies view. — Maile (talk) 23:22, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose indef block at this time, and issue a last final warning, with an automatic indef to follow if there's a consensus that Kevin has been rude to editors again. Unlike my respected colleagues Drmies and Maile, I think the above response by Kevin is a good, thoughtful and measured one. Yes, it would have been nice if we'd had it earlier, and it stops short of an outright apology for insulting Joseph and others. But it seems to offer some hope that, having come within a whisker of a lengthy ban, Kevin will use a more measured and friendly tone with us in the future. Maybe he'll be true to his word, maybe he won't, but we know what we have to do if it's the latter. And despite his tone, Kevin does contribute usefully to the main page process. As someone who works there a lot, I'll admit I make mistakes sometimes, and having people looking out for those mistakes is a good thing. I do believe that the main page should be "held to the highest standards". Cheers — Amakuru (talk) 00:00, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Main page topic ban and final warning Accept Kevin McE's suggestion for an MP topic ban, indefinite and widely construed, appealable after one year. Issue final warning, appealable after one year, for failure to WP:AGF regarding fellow editors as well as WP:CIVILITY. Their above response was winded, a bulk of it failing WP:NOTTHEM. I'm not sure if they get it entirely (yet), and wouldn't oppose an indef block. However, the tban puts them out of harm's way from the MP, which they describe as "a trigger point for me". I'm willing to apply the very AGF they didn't afford others, stop quibbling, and say WP:LASTCHANCE.—Bagumba (talk) 07:17, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm still in the indef block camp. There's nothing in that text about direct insults and put-downs: no commitment to stop doing it, no acknowledgement that he's ever done it in the past, no recognition that it's wrong, nothing. Nothing he's said even touches on the most problematic behaviour he's shown. A weak response from us here shows contempt and disregard for his targets.—S MarshallT/C 07:32, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment this looks like it's stalling. Of course, the only recourse if this doesn't conclude here is a case at Arbcom. Do you all want that, or can there be some kind of compromise that the community can arrive at? Or even just a decision? The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 21:11, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Schwede66, Joseph2302, and Drmies: and others. This does indeed look like ArbCom should handle this. I'd rather not. I'd really rather this all got resolved here. The statement of Kevin McE above is rationally worded. But none of it is a resolution to this. I would feel a lot more confident if we opened an Arbcom case, provided the diff evidence, and let them handle this as uninvolved editors. One thing that seems to stall it here, is some of us were the targets of this behavior, or have had to resolve same. We are not uninvolved parties, and this behavior pattern should have come to this page long ago. I suggest that we open an ArbCom case. Any volunteers to open the case there? — Maile (talk) 22:47, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
(EC) I'm also still in the indef block camp, as this is a lame attempt at an apology in amongst a wall of words. If the consensus is for main page topic ban and final warning, I would not lose any sleep over that. Schwede6622:49, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
If someone wants to send it to Arbcom, then feel free. But I don't feel I have anything more to contribute to this, and was hoping a board full of admins could resolve this without going to the nuisance of Arbcom. Joseph2302 (talk) 23:04, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This is not my normal stomping grounds, so I don't know the process for closing. I see Closure requests, but quite frankly, I think the evidence has been presented. The issue is whether or not we are ready to close. Other than a well thought-out response from Kevin McE, I really don't think his words address the issues. He promises to do better in the future. OK. And then what? Historically speaking, many who end up on these boards for their behavior, and get by on promises not to do it again, revert to their basic problem behavior. My personal perspective is an indef block from Wikipedia. Not everybody wants that, or has a consensus on what they do want. — Maile (talk) 23:20, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I just don't think this is an ArbCom issue, although I can sympathise with how the editors on the receiving end feel. I do think at least some editors here are not open to any resolution other than an indef. Maile's continuous push for either an indef (she's boldwords voted indef four times) or an ArbCom case (4/5 times), combined with a refusal to link to evidence to support some of her claims, makes me feel uneasy about how this discussion is going, although it's appreciable she was on the receiving end of some of these comments. This isn't an endorsement of Kevin's behaviour, which I opined on above. On the substantive issue, I'm not one to support letting incivility run rampant, but personally I think Kevin's response shows adequate reflection and may well show a change in future approach. He doesn't come across as someone who would say something he doesn't mean just to get out of an indef (more like someone who would rather die on this hill than apologise for something he doesn't feel sorry for). Has he made false promises before? I'd probably say proceed with a topic ban from anything MP-related and a final warning. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 23:26, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Please do not misrepresent my actions, although I probably could have originally answered you more politely. Inbetween your request for diffs, and my seeing your posts, Pawnkingthree posted a sample of diffs of the period I was talking about. His diffs were right below your request. And in fact you posted to me "I think Pawnkingthree's provided evidence shows a pattern." Duh! I bolded my "Indef". Well, yeah - if you want your "Indef" or even "Neutral" to show, you bold it. A lot of others bolded theirs more than once. There is a ton of text for readers to weave through. — Maile (talk) 01:15, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with much of what ProcrastinatingReader wrote in the comment just above yours at 23:26, 21 August 2021. I looked for some diffs to justify an indef but couldn't find them after a few minutes. There was one over-the-top diff but Kevin McE was blocked for that. KM's reply to my question is obvious bloviation but not bad enough to warrant an indef particularly since some contributors responded favorably towards it. I don't think this needs a firm resolution because I am one of a few admins who would issue escalating blocks (or an indef) if the confrontational and corrosive attitude is aired again. If others agree that is sufficient, perhaps this could be closed with that implied warning and any further issues might be brought to my attention. Johnuniq (talk) 23:56, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
If it is to be a final warning it should be accompanied by a topic ban from the Main Page, which I also see consensus for (and agreement from Kevin McE as well). Pawnkingthree (talk) 00:05, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Some action is needed. Days after the last block expired, they continued a WP:BATTLEGROUND rant here at the blocking admin's talk page. This was not a heat-of-the-moment exchange; it was deliberate. I recommended WP:LASTCHANCE, but I wouldn't oppose an indef as there's a clear threat that their values conflict with WP pillar WP:5P4, Wikipedia's editors should treat each other with respect and civility, especially in the face of editing errors.—Bagumba (talk)
I'm not convinced that was BATTLEGROUND. At the previous ANI Kevin wasn't even able to comment, as he was blocked shortly after the discussion started. (The block was fair of course, as it was a consequence of Kevin writing this comment, but a side effect is that it may mean the issue isn't put to rest.) The section Kevin started on Drmies' talk was obviously tone deaf, but not BATTLEGROUND. Generally we give editors space to add their comments in community discussions re. conduct issues, explaining the events from their POV, and it's understandable an editor may have the urge to air their POV somewhere afterwards, if they can't do it at the time. Now, really, it shouldn't need to be explained to an editor with 15 years' tenure how/why you can't go around belittling other editors, but regardless I think the community has now sent that message very unambiguously. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 01:02, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Blocked users have access to their own talk page, and are given procedures to request an unblock, if needed. Editors are expected to WP:LISTEN to other's concerns.—Bagumba (talk) 01:21, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Maile66, I have some experience with ArbCom, and if I were still on it and this were presented to us, I'd vote to not accept. I'd say that the community is capable of handling it, it just disagrees on what to do. Personally, I disagree with some of the exculpatory claims made here, but I recognize that not everyone feels the same way. Personally, I don't understand how the editor in question can look at this and not go, "well, I must have been really wrong". And as much as I disagree with much of the content of the comment made just now by Procrastinating Reader, I do agree with the last sentence. I think, Maile (and Joseph, and Schwede, and other numbered or unnumbered editors), that this is all we are going to get, and it's very disappointing, and it is what it is. What I hope for is two things: a. the editor will quietly say to themselves that they may have been fucking up and that it might be wise to act differently, and b. the admins in this thread will not walk away from what in a moral way kind of has become their responsibility: if the editor continues with the same kind of personal attacks and battleground mentality, they will place that block. Drmies (talk) 01:28, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That's as maybe, but there's no consensus either way here. This should (and will) be closed as no action because no definitive action has any kind of consensus at all. The community has summarily failed to agree on what should happen here. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 21:51, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
So although nearly everyone commenting here has called for some sort of action - either an outright indef, a Main Page topic ban or a final warning, including yourself who said Allow him to continue but on a "no more chances" basis, for a period of no less than six months or a year, because we haven't all agreed on one thing it should be closed as "no action"? That seems bizarre to me. Pawnkingthree (talk) 23:30, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Drmies and Pawnkingthree: I don't recall that I've ever posted on this notice board before. However, would it be appropriate to do one of those sub-heading options of selections like: (1) Indef block (2) Topic Ban on the Main Page (3) No action should be taken? I supposed we could make it more clear before it's closed. What is the proper procedure here? — Maile (talk) 00:06, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think no firm rules applies for organization, more important if there was an unwieldy number, which I don't feel there is here. While it's not supposed to be a vote count, it never hurts to bold your intentions and even backup options. In my case, I tried to make clear that I want some action (TBAN or INDEF) as opposed to none. Personally, I would assume those asking for indef block would implicitly be ok with a TBAN e.g. akin to an AfD with, say, 2 deletes and 2 redir !votes being closed as "redir" as opposed to "no consensus".—Bagumba (talk) 02:58, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That kind of structure can help make the consensus clearer, but at this late stage I think we are where we are. I agree the closer should take it as obvious that those supporting the indef would also support the TBAN.-- Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:18, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Just to make the Topic Ban issue a little more clear for any admin who deals with this Closure Request. The original Kevin McE Topic Ban was specifically for "anything related to Alica Schmidt or the editors". Now that the article is off the Main Page, that specific article is not the Topic Ban we are asking for. What has been discussed above, is that most of the attacks and other issues from Kevin McE are related to content on Wikipedia's Main Page. The Topic Ban requested here is for any issues dealing with the Main Page, since the MP content is what has triggered his disruptive editing/attacks. — Maile (talk) 13:43, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. Kevin McE referred to it at 20:21, 20 August 2021: I acknowledge that MP has been something of a trigger point for me: I have often gone months at a time without even looking at it, and it won't bother me if I do so again, under a topicblock if people think that just.—Bagumba (talk) 14:32, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Also, a Topic Ban might go a long ways towards soothing ruffled feathers of those who prefer an indef block. It would put the brakes on the pattern, while giving Kevin McE a chance to rerdeem himself.— Maile (talk) 19:58, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Concise is nice. Is Kevin a capable writer? Yes, good even. Still, with all those words above he offered a low quality apology with the lowest possible admission of fault. While it may be a case of WP:OtherSituationsExist, other editors have been indeffed for far less. In order to fulfill the question/request above: Tban of MP as 2nd choice. — Ched (talk) 16:43, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Well - this is looking more and more like it's destined drift off into the archives like the previous thread. Hopefully Kevin will still take away the fact that he's on a very, VERY short leash at this point. — Ched (talk) 18:39, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Stefan2 has tagged probably ~200 files just today for CSD F5 (orphaned) or CSD F6 (no fair use rationale). Many taggings seem correct, but especially among the CSD F6 tagged files it's often just a matter of not having the de facto default fair use template as an album cover for an article about said album is generally accepted to fall within the scope of fair use on Wikipedia.
Because of the sheer number it's difficult to check everything here. Some of the images tagged CSD F5 might be caused by a broken template, typo or vandal. The CSD F6 images that could be fixed by adding a fair use template should just be fixed, not deleted, but the volume and deadline are a problem. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 14:28, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I discovered that the bot which tags files for F5 deletion for some reason didn't tag files with redirects. I happened to have some free time today, so I tagged those. If some of the files weren't supposed to be orphaned, then presumably the uploader sees this and adds it back to the article. The earlier the file is tagged, the earlier someone is likely to spot the error. I think that orphaned files usually are orphaned because they are supposed to be orphaned. The bot seems to tag maybe 500 files per week so an extra 100 or so manually tagged files probably doesn't make a big difference.
Stefan2, if the uploader isn't around anymore, on vacation or just not checking their watchlist regularly they won't notice. When the bot tags something it's usually immediately after some change, so somewhat more likely to be noticed. I'll try to fix some of the descriptions. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 00:48, 17 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
(Non-administrator comment) Just going to make a couple of comments on this.
Non-free content use and fair use aren't really the same thing when it comes to Wikipedia as explained in WP:NFC#Background and it's probably best to avoid mixing up the two terms when discussing the this type of image use on Wikipedia; in other words, there isn't really a scope of fair use on Wikipedia since pretty much any image could be used without any real restrictions on Wikipedia if relevant policy was identical to fair use.
There are also really no "de-facto" types of non-free content use when in comes to Wikipedia. There are types of uses that are generally considered acceptable per WP:NFCI, but even these aren't necessarily automatically considered WP:NFCC compliant. A non-free file needs to meet all ten of the WP:NFCCP and failing even one means the file can be removed. One of the requirements (or, more specifically, one part of one of the requirements) is WP:NFCC#10c which states that a separate specific non-free use rationale needs to be provided for each use of a non-free file. So, if a file is missing such a rationale, then the particular use isn't policy compliant.
It's the responsibility of the editor adding a non-free file to an article to add a corresponding non-free use rationale for said use to the file's page as explained in WP:NFCCE. For sure, lots of well-meaning editors just add non-free files without rationales to articles for whatever reason (many probably just assume all images are the same and aren't aware of the NFCC), but the responsibility is still theirs. If another editor comes across such a file and notices it's missing a non-free use rationale, then they can for sure add the rationale if they feel the use is justified. They can, however, also tag the file with {{nrd}} or {{di-missing article links}} to give someone else the opportunity to do so if they're not so sure, or they can simply remove the file if they feel the particular use is pretty much impossible to justify. Each human editor is different and some may spend more time looking a particular file than others, but bots (unlike humans) are pretty much all the same and are just going to tag and remove files and then leave only a boilerplate notification template on the uploader's user talk page when they do. Since files can only be deleted by administrators, one can hope that the reviewing administrator will take more than a casual look at the file before deleting it and prehaps catch any obvious mistakes. Once again though, it's not the administrator's responsibility to provide a missing rationale; so, if the reviewing administrator feels the use can't be justified, then they will delete the file. FWIW, both F5 and F6 deletion have a seven-day window from when a file is tagged to when it's eligible for deletion and both should end up with the uploader being notified on their user talk page. If, however, the uploader is not around for some reason and they don't see the notification, then Wikipedia isn't going to stop and wait for them.
WP:F5 and WP:F6 deletions are pretty common and mostly considered non-controversial WP:SOFTDELETEs. In most cases, files deleted for such reasons can be quickly restored without much fuss via WP:REFUND or by contacting the deleting admininistrator. So, if the uploader or another editor wants a file deleted for F5 of F6 reasons restored, all they bascially need to do is ask and address the reason for deletion. It's still, however, the responsibility of that person to justify the non-free use and provide the required rationale (if missing) for that use.
If a file is tagged with WP:F5 and no one notices, then no one will add it back to an article (if it was supposed to be added back). However, no one would notice if it wasn't tagged, so it's not going to be added back faster if it's not tagged. If someone discovers that the image is missing from an article in a month or a year, this person could either go to WP:REFUND or re-upload the image. That said, most images are probably unused because they are supposed to be unused.
If a file is deleted for having no fair use rationale but the file satisfies the other criteria, then anyone could write a FUR and request undeletion at WP:REFUND or re-upload the file. However, the file should not be used in the article while the FUR is missing as that's not compatible with policy.
Sounds like Stefan2 is tagging things that need tagging. That said, it is usually a really good idea to limit the rate of doing so to a reasonable pace so if a handful of people would like to fix/audit/whatever your work they can successfully do so. For something like this, it would probably be ideal to spread these 200 into groups of 20 or so a day. It looks like a lot of these have been around for a long time--being around for an extra week isn't the end of the world. Hobit (talk) 03:02, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think that the problem is that files are tagged when someone has the time to tag files, which often means that files are tagged in large batches at the same time. That said, I don't think that the number of files was big. --Stefan2 (talk) 18:45, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
(Non-administrator comment) It's not really the same thing at all Gwillhickers, at least not in my opinion. Stefan2 seems to have removed those files because he felt they didn't comply with WP:NFCC; this was a WP:BOLD edit that you subsequently WP:REVERTed. Just having a non-free use rationale doesn't automatically make a non-free use compliant as explained here and an editor may boldly remove such a file if they feel it clearly violates policy. If another disagrees and re-adds the file, then that is when some type of discussion is expected to take place. -- Marchjuly (talk) 21:28, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Am quite aware of why the images were removed, and hence orphaned. As pointed out, the policy allowed for "exceptions", per gallery use, and in this case, is warranted, as their is no other images here at WP of a complete block of eight of the eight separate images in question. Being bold usually refers to making an edit or two. It doesn't justify a mass tagging crusade. In any case, I am not seeking to have any disciplinary measures resorted to here, but only that this activity be checked more carefully. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 22:54, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Stefan2 removed the files, but he didn't tag them for speedy deletion; they were tagged by B-bot. Boldly removing a file is not really any different from boldly adding a file in that prior discussion isn't automatically necessary. What's appears to be being discussed above is Stefan2's tagging of files either lacking non-free use rationales (WP:F6) or which are orphaned non-free use (WP:F5), neither of which seems related to the eight files you've mentioned above and which both are clear violations of WP:NFCCP. In the case of the orphaned non-free use files, it doesn't appear that Stefan2 was mass removing files and then immediately mass tagging them for F5 deletion, which is something that would certainly be cause for concern; it appears that he was only adding F5 CSD tags to files which were already orphaned for some reason (perhaps being removed or replaced by another editor). These files most likely would've end up being tagged for F5 deletion by a bot in most cases (like what happened with the eight you found), but maybe Stefan2 was only tagging ones that he believed that the bots had missed. As to whether the non-free use of the eight stamp files is justified per WP:NFG, such a thing is more of a discussion suitable for WP:FFD than here; however, at least one other editor raised similar concerns at Talk:US space exploration history on US stamps#NFC issue back in 2016 that nobody seems to have addressed. I've got no idea as to whether Stefan2 was aware of that post, but that's probably a good place to continue discussing these files for those who want to now that you've re-added them. -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:33, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
NFC policy compliance is not something that should be metered slowly, given it is one of our legal-based policies like BLP. We do want to make sure the initial tagging is being done with human review (as to avoid the BetaCommand issue) and Stefan's rate seems well within that, but we need to make sure non-free meet our policy as per the WMF's resolution on this matter. --Masem (t) 01:18, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes and no. If it's been there for years, letting the process take an extra week to get them all isn't unreasonable. I mean we have a week process built in on that philosophy when doing a single one. Not unreasonable to ask people to keep to a pace a person could reasonable check in an hour/day. Hobit (talk) 20:05, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
As was explained to Stefan twice, there is no "blatant" violation of NFC, which acknowledges and allows for "exceptions", per gallery display of the NFC images in question. There is also no violation of NFCCP #3: "Minimal usage: a. Minimal number of items. Multiple items of non-free content are not used if one item can convey equivalent significant information." (emphasis added) Again, there is no "one item", or single image, here at WP that displays all eight stamps in block form, that I know of. Regarding NFCC #10 c, and NFC rationale regarding relevancy to the article -- this really should be obvious. The article is about space themes on US stamps, and the stamps in question, quite simply, display this theme. But let's maintain focus. This forum is about whether the mass tagging effort going on, usually without prior or any discussion, is at issue. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 21:58, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Explaining something to someone (even twice) doesn't make the explanation automatically correct; it could just as easily mean the explanation is faulty in some way. Anyway, the non-free uses of those particular eight files will be resolved through consensus at FFD; so, there's not really any value in discussing them here any further. As for the "mass tagging", whether there's an issue with the pace of the tagging seems to be open to discussion, but nobody (at least so far) seems to be stating that any files were incorrectly tagged by Stefan2. If that's what you're claiming, then perhaps you can provide some examples of specific files in which you feel Stefan seems to have been trying to game the system in some way and tagging files incorrectly per WP:F5 or WP:F6. Just for reference, F5 and F6 deletions are reviewed by an administrator before any files end up deleted. If a file is tagged for either and the relevant issue is subsequently resolved; an administrator almost certainly isn't going to delete the file. I also believe (but am not totally sure) there are bots which go around checking F5 tags and they remove the tag if they can see the file is no longer orphaned. So, there are seemingly checks in place to catch any mistakes are made. "Mass tagging" doesn't really require pre-discussion per se, and there is probably lots of project-wide mass tagging going on each and every day by bots and other editors simply doing clean up or other things; it's only when the mass tagging is reckless and incorrect that problems develop like say WP:MEATBOT. So, if your concerns expressed above are related to any files other than the eight now being discussed at FFD, then please clarify which ones to allow further assessment. I'm assuming that you looked at some of the other files before commenting here and didn't show up because you saw User talk:Stefan2#Notice of noticeboard discussion as an opportunity to start a discussion about eight unrelated files. -- Marchjuly (talk) 22:33, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
My concern is that someone may well be able to fix the underlying issue given time. But taking the time to figure out what can and should be fixed takes much longer than it takes to tag things. As such, it's generally a good idea to let these things run at "human speed" so that the "relevant issues" can be addressed before it gets to an admin. That's my only point. Hobit (talk) 01:35, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
In the end I managed to check everything just before the deadline, but I had to uncomfortably push myself to get it done before the deadline. Various other editors appear to have reviewed files as well, that helped. Managed to save various files, e.g. some were PD-textlogo and some were replaced in articles by copyvios on Commons. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 11:38, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Alexis Jazz and Hobit. Marchjuly, no one said anything about Stefan "gaming the system". Citing guidelines about what's allowed regarding mass tagging also evades and misses the point, that the mass tagging often results in orphaned files which are subsequently purged from WP before the uploader, even when notified, has a chance to find about the matter. Again, I seek no disciplinary actions here, only that a word of caution be extended in light of the fact that there have been a number of questionable edits made involving various iamges, in a hurried and continuous fashion, with concerns expressed by several editors. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 00:12, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks to @Alexis Jazz: and others who helped address the issues. Thanks also to @Stefan2: for finding the problems, though again, it would be helpful if in the future you either help fix things where they can be fixed or take the process slower so others can address things in a reasonable way. Hobit (talk) 00:49, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It reminds me of a phenomena I've run into lately...editors with no main User page who make an edit to create a User page with a deletion tag on it. If they didn't want a User page, why create it and ask for it to be deleted in the same edit? I must have run into this a dozen times recently. Bewildering. LizRead!Talk!01:01, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
In my experience, while honest sockmasters are a tiny minority of all sockmasters, they are nowhere near as rare as you might think. It is, of course, a kind of trolling. The user page created with a deletion tag already in place, as described by Liz, is more different to understand, and yet probably much more common. Occasionally, but unusually, it's a copy and paste of a deleted user page, evidently copied after deletion tagging to try to save it. It's possible that at other times it may be the same thing, only transferred from the original account to a sockpuppet, but as far as I remember I've never seen any evidence of that. Again, it may be a form of trolling, but I've seen it from editors whose other editing doesn’t look like trolling or vandalism. I suppose it could be some sort of misunderstanding of what "db-user" means, but overall I really don't understand it. 🤔 JBW (talk) 14:29, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That's it. The editors I run into who do this typically have a few edits (less than a dozen) and no vandalism. Some have had accounts for years. Why they suddenly decide to create and delete a user page is peculiar. But the only trouble they cause is needing an admin to delete their page so it hasn't caused me to continue to keep tabs on them. LizRead!Talk!05:17, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Clerking at Afghanistan pages
At Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, I tried to start a discussion thread on a new proposal to deal with the wide variety of page split/move proposals. Over the course of 14 hours, this was re-factored into a WP:RM proposal, speedy-closed, and archived.
I feel this is inappropriate.
I feel the way to resolve this is to have more admins (or experienced non-admins) clerking the talk pages. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 15:02, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Understood. I will stop clerking at those pages. (Have grown tired of doing so anyway because of the constant squabbling.) But, it would be helpful to have only one discussion open at one time since having multiple discussions simply paralyzes the pages. Maybe an admin should do something about that. Muhibm0307 (talk) 17:26, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Since discussion about WikiMedia writing and polishing their Universal Code of Conduct has reached our shores, I'd just like to point out that here, at most, this code might qualify as a unendorsed essay about the fourth of Wikipedia's WP:PILLARS, civility. These five pillars, and the policy and guideline system, have worked well as W.'s codes since 2001, and contain nothing about an overlapping code of conduct from off-site. As a self-governing website with established editor-endorsed sets of rules and regs, an official-sounding attempt to alter these should be seen as both a good faith overreach and, perhaps, an essay. Randy Kryn (talk) 19:45, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
As Wikimedia owns the website, including En:Wiki, and has stated that the UCOC will be compulsory and that Sysops and the like (presumably including admins) will be required to sign up to it.It represents a lot more than an essay. Pretending or doesn't exist or that en:wiki can just ignore it is not a sensible option.Nigel Ish (talk) 22:55, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I would think that this would qualify as a guideline about civility, maybe even policy itself. Reading what the current state of the UCOC is, it seems fairly reasonable. There are ongoing draft review discussions if there's something that anyone takes issue with. I don't see the point of people "signing up to it" as that seems very inefficent, I'd imagine it'd just be something that people in general are expected to adhere to. Clovermoss(talk)23:25, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia already has a code of conduct, the five pillars. Those, along with its policies, guidelines, ongoing liquid consensus, and then the essays and such, have kept the place running for 20 years. Doesn't make a difference what an administrator signs as a private editor, they can individually use the essay as reasoning but can't correctly call it a Wikipedia code of conduct, policy, or even a guideline, so other considerations would probably have to enter into any Wikipedia decision based on it until a consensus is reached in an RfC as to what to call it. Randy Kryn (talk) 02:49, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Quote "The UCoC applies to everyone who interacts and contributes to online and offline Wikimedia projects and spaces. The following individuals should be required to affirm (through signed declaration or other format to be decided) they will respect and adhere to the Universal Code of Conduct:...Users with enhanced rights such as, but not limited to: sysop, bureaucrat, steward, interface admin, checkuser".Nigel Ish (talk) 12:20, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Please, I have to know what happens when an unstoppable Code Enforcement Officer meets an immovable Cow (Man) trapped in the turnbuckle! El_C09:25, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
While it may not be popular with many here, UCOC almost certainly will happen here sooner or later (although much of it only codifies things we already claim to do). En:Wiki will need to get its act together if we don't want to see a lot of interaction with enforcement officials from outside our community (as a minimum, we will need to make sure that we cover all of the requirements of UCOC, and we will have to make sure that we can work properly with the mysterious "centralized reporting and processing tool for UCoC violations" that is being developed by the Wikimedia Foundation.Nigel Ish (talk) 15:01, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
BTW, I've been informed that due to mocking the WMF, they have suspended all payments to me. And since they pay me in hugs and kisses, now I'm sad.El_C15:09, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The entire problem with WP:FRAM, and one that The Foundation appears to have not learned by, as they are doubling down on the mistakes they made at WP:FRAM, is that foundation people, is that double secret probation is not a system that engenders trust and faith in the community they are supporting. The idea that arbitrary sanctions can be enforced by people from outside the community with no accountability to that community is the issue. There are ways the Foundation could help with problems of civility and harassment at Wikipedia, but having a nebulous "Code Enforcement Officer" empowered to act on random complaints sounds like a system rife with possibilities for abuse by the harassers themselves, with little chance of actually strengthening the community. --Jayron3216:18, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Preach it, brother! I'd like to see a Lulz Enforcement Officer figure out, say, the harassment/LTA indef block (with TPA disabled) that I've just handed to KonsTomasz a few minutes ago. But I guess there's money to spend, so maybe they'll figure it out super-fast and super-correctly! Anyway, what do I know? I only joined the project in 2004, became an admin in 2005, and been unrelentingly spamming ever since. //Cow Man out!El_C16:31, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think the members of this committee are meant to be community members (hopefully elected ones). Enforcement Officer is unclearly defined, but it sounds like it just means local sysops with training, but I could be completely wrong, since the definition and scope of these officers is very poorly defined, and the defined term ("Code Enforcement Officer") is not even used again in the document except to say this group has to "affirm" their respect for the UCOC. This part is lousy drafting IMO. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 16:45, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
In that case, level-up XP for being a sysop with a WMF Lulz Enforcement Officer (LEO) rank! Sorry, but I am wiki-LEO, so stand down, I have a license to lulz. Community? What community? It's busy, it doesn't want any!El_C17:01, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It feels like neither the Wikimedia code enforcement officers ("Show me your edits!") or involuntary signing of promises to enforce (don't even know what that means, Wikipedians are free to sign or not sign anything they want) will make it very far here as a top-down dictate, too much free thought through my random and limited knowledge of the community. I haven't read the code as yet, have come late to the discussion, but am guessing it will be larger than the ideal of printing it on one side of a piece of paper. And hopefully it is formatted as a Wikipedia policy or guideline so it could be RfC'ed for consensus and adoption as a policy or guideline. If Wikipedia is to stay Wikipedia, with a community of editors who've developed the machine and kept it running for 20 years, this code of conduct, and such things as code enforcement officers, would probably have to enter it through a vigorous on-site discussion and consensus (if I'm correctly estimating the independent spirit of Wikipedians). Randy Kryn (talk) 17:38, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Seriously, though, I don't understand the utility of adding these LEOs, here, to the English Wikipedia project when WP:T&S already exists. What is this extra layer of bureaucracy even for? BTW, I've dealt with T&S (as well as WP:EMERGENCY) on many occasions and they were always professional and prompt. If it ain't broken (etc.)... El_C17:19, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The purpose of extra layers of bureaucracy is, as always, to provide employment to bureaucrats, and to make the top-layer boss-bureaucrats seem more important. As for fixing things that aren't broken, when it isn't pure make-work it is generally a displacement activity taken on to avoid trying to fix things that are, since doing so could lead to awkward questions about who is in charge of the 'fixing'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:26, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I am curious how it'll work on projects like enwiki. I mean there are incidents that the community apparently doesn't deal well with (c.f. the ongoing RfC apparently inspired by Wikipedia:Unblockables), but we already have a method for resolving conduct issues by fiat (the Arbitration Committee). For those cases that even ArbCom don't want to touch, I guess a useful question to first answer is 'why not?'. It's not like they're restricted by policy; much of the UCOC was already either enwiki policy as-written or as-applied. If ArbCom can't fix those problems, why would another fiat body be able to?
I guess there is a slight difference in scope (ArbCom's is "serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve", and U4C's is "Systematic failure[s] to follow the UCoC" / "cross-wiki UCoC violations"). The U4C's scope seems to include all of ArbCom's first scope. So, are all single-user conduct issues that the community can't fix now going to fall into the remit of the U4C Committee? If so, how will this committee interact with ArbComs on overlapping scopes? The enforcement draft seems to omit touching on that (rather important) detail. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 17:41, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The UCOC is not aimed specifically at English Wikipedia, on the contrary. There are 300 language Wikipedias and countless other Wiki projects, who are significantly under-resourced/have far more issues of conduct enforcement/baseline standards. I'll admit I don't fully understand what will be different for an existing and highly engaged community like enwp; but I am not too worried about it either. The issues of nationalist editing/holocaust revisionism are documented on Croation and Japanese Wikipedia for example.[1]Shushugah (he/him • talk) 17:49, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm reminded also of the case Meta:Requests for comment/Global ban for Til Eulenspiegel who was a sysop and bureaucrat until an extreme example of homophobia lead to it being removed followed by that global ban then a WMF ban. In small projects I imagine it's easy for one or two admins to ride roughshod over the community. We often get reports of alleged administrative abuse in other projects. Most of these are probably nonsense, but I always fear some may not be. But there's also the question over what is 'abuse', which the alleged problems with the Japanese and Croatian wikipedias may touch on. But coming back to the Codex Sinaiticus/Til Eulenspiegel case, it was never clear to me that it was a case of one administrator riding roughshod over the community, or whether the community that existed even if whatever blocks hadn't happened, would have been supportive of the kind of actions Codex Sinaiticus took. I acknowledge it's impossible to know anyway. Even if you go through all the blocks and work out which ones were dodgy, for anyone who was blocked we can't know much they would have contributed and even without being blocked, editors may never join or just leave when they see the blocks and other behaviour is the norm. Also for those who weren't banned, it's hard to know how they truly feel. Anything before Codex Sinaiticus was banned may be affected by fear of what Codex Sinaiticus would do. Anything after and well having seen what happened to Codex Sinaiticus they may have feared the same thing or at least that it would be useless. But my ultimate point is that while I have no idea if it was the case in the Amharic wikipedia, since it's hard to deny that views on what sort of conduct is okay varies quite significantly throughout the world there is always going to be the chance that in on some wikimedia project, what they allow and enforce is going to be something we find wrong or even disgusting and vice versa. And although Codex Sinaiticus's problems extended beyond the Amharic wikipedia, I assume as IMO was shown in the global ban discussion, that most English Wikipedians are perfectly fine with enforcing certain universal values no matter whether they conflict with whatever local norms and values may exist. So it seems to me more a question of what those values should be and how far we should go in enforcing them and how that should interact with what the local Wiki is doing. The UCoC seems to be pushing for there to be greater enforcement of such universal values so situations less than the extremes of the Codex Sinaiticus are dealt with. Nil Einne (talk) 00:40, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict)Speaking only for myself and no other member of the UCoC enforcement drafting committee, I think the feedback around the name Code Enforcement Officer has been valuable. It's not something I spent a lot of time talking about in committee work and so appreciate all criticism of that term. I will say that that a core idea is getting a little lost (i.e. looking at Andy's and El C's comments above) but the idea with these people was that most UCoC enforcement would not be some new bureaucratic layer. Enforcement, to the extent it's necessary, would instead be entrusted to projects and the people on projects already tasked by those projects. So for us that would be some combination of admin, CUOS, and arbitrators. In extreme circumstances it would be T&S. This is because most violations of the UCoC will not be the sort of thorny harassment/incivility issues that many are thinking about when they hear UCoC. Most violations of the UCoC will be vandalism or the more routine kinds of harassment that we have sophisticated policies and procedures to handle, but which many small projects do not. What is undecided is where local enforcement needs to stop in favor of some global enforcement. There is some good discussion going on in this thread about that topic. And if people weigh in here on enwiki that's fine. That feedback will be sent along to the committee - in what form I don't know because I haven't seen it yet but I know it will be read and passed along. But what I fear is that feedback which is only left here on enwiki will get lumped together and be 1 data point even if say 50 editors participate and say the same thing. And then we'll also get 1 data point in a conversation where 4 editors participate in some other language and that will also be 1 data point. Then those two data points are considered in equal weight moving forward. Where as if the feedback is left on meta it is more likely to be seen by members of the committee and so even if the summary again makes it a single data point, the fact that 50 editors are saying it will be felt in a different way. Even here I expect that the feedback among our editor base to be diverse and not always agree. That's great too. BUt there will be a lot we do agree on and it's incredibly important that both those places we agree and those places we don't are heard and thought about by the drafting committee. And so my fear is that if we stay in our enwiki safe space, then we will have a situation where we get to ratification (and meaningful ratification is a hill I am ready to die on, especially because it didn't happen with the UCoC text itself) and it fails because the objections and the intensity those objections were held in didn't translate up. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 18:27, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Heh, in fairness, DFO, this is how it usually goes. Me to T&S: I gots an urgent call-the-FBIs case!T&S: Sigh. Forwarding to EMERGENCY.Me to EMERGENCY:I gots an complex international stalking case, call the lawlyers, stat!EMERGENCY: Sigh. Forwarding to T&S.¯\_(ツ)_/¯El_C20:45, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
BTW, WMF, if you read this: Japanese_Wikipedia#Criticism seems to only be scratching the surface. Maybe some money$ should go toward not making the 2nd largest -language Wikipedia an embarrassment and a stain on the movement...? Just sayin'. El_C20:59, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect my mistake?
When filling out the edit description while archiving a post, I accidentally linked the wrong page ([11]). Is it possible for an admin to add a redirect for me? Apparently, the page I posted in error is blacklisted.
@WikiIsKnowledge: It's not possible for an admin to change either. It's your own talk page also, so likely nobody else would see it either. In other situations, however, you could make a dummy edit and put a followup edit summary, if you thought something was confusing enough to correct.—Bagumba (talk) 12:18, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I have now found that the problem occurs only if I am editing on my phone, not on a computer, and only if I am in MonoBook, not if I switch to Vector. Presumably, therefore, it is all part of a very irritating change which happened a while ago, which again applies only in MonoBook on a phone. The normal interface has been replaced by a very different one, with silly little icons at the top of the page instead of the normal links, both those which belong at the top and those that belong at the left hand side of the screen. It is a nuisance, partly because some things are more awkward to do in the changed interface, and in a few cases as far as I can see impossible, and partly because even when things aren't any more awkward, they are just different, and I don't want to have to fiddle around finding how to do them, instead of just continuing in the way that I already know. Does anyone know if there's any way I can return to the proper MonoBook interface, and turn off these annoying changes that someone has decided to impose on me without giving me the option? I can avoid the problem by switching to Vector, but I don't see why I should: I was happier with MonoBook. (Perhaps I should say that I use the so-called "desktop" setting on my phone, not the stupid "Mobile" version.) If anyone can offer any help I shall be grateful. JBW (talk) 20:19, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
If it's of any interest to anyone, I've now found the answer. I just had to untick the "Enable responsive mode" option in my preferences. The description given is "Adapt skin to available viewport area", which explains why the problem occurred only on my phone. The change did actually make some things a little easier on a small screen, but unfortunately it made some other things significantly more difficult, and some actually impossible (such as viewing the collapsible AIV template list). At the most 3/10 for the implementers of the feature, I'm afraid. JBW (talk) 21:53, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Monarchy of Pakistan
The article Monarchy of Pakistan was moved by an admin in 2016 to Dominion of Pakistan, without a consensus or any proper discussion. The reason they gave was that the monarchy article was "an unsourced duplicate" of the dominion article, and thus they moved the page.
(non-admin comment) The merge was not made using administrative powers, so it's just an editorial matter. If you go to this version of the page you can click the edit button as normal and overwrite the redirect with your new fully sourced article. If you've written the article in draft space or your user space and anybody else other than you has edited it as well, you'll need to move the draft to the old title (to preserve the edit history). An administrator can help you with that - see the instructions at Wikipedia:Requested moves. ◦ Trey Maturin15:22, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm cool with it. He built the ship (draft page), I launched it (cut & past, replacing re-direct) & now it's a float, for anyone to (edit) sail :) GoodDay (talk) 20:42, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The page is getting vandalised by IPs although the first result of the fight was overturned and I brought sources. I request 30 days of protection! Thank you .karellian-24 (talk) 14:55, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Diningcarriage has been reasonably identified one of a number of COI editor by admins at Railway Preservation Society of Ireland (RSPI), some having a negative COI and possibly intending to simply to disruptive. Whether intentional or not that has certainly interferred with my update of that article. I believe I, and others, have issued almost every form of warning imaginable. Scrutinisers of this must consider whether I am issuing warnings to gain an editorial advantage, and must scrutinise my actions in totality. I would have likely to have got through the most of the update this weekend, RL, distractions and disruption to this article have all intervened; and my work on this is suspended. An option would be to stubify, work on a user page and then copy page over the top. I would like to collaberate in such as enterprise but realistically a collaberative effort in draft could equally be interfered with. The final edits questioning my improvements were at [12] which I am currently leaving in situ to de-escalate the edit war but leaves article in hiatus. Obviously risk of possible WP:BOOMERANG on myself but the minimum would be voluntary I-BANs/T-BANs as required. Thankyou. Djm-leighpark (talk) 16:37, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I apologize for inadvertently posting this to WP:AN rather than WP:ANI. I will be placing at WP:ANI and this discussion should be closed by a clerk who may WP:TROUT me. Thankyou. Djm-leighpark (talk) 17:36, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
@Johnuniq: The revision linked above is a content deletion, if I'm not mistaken. The edit summary has already been removed, and the deleted content has been restored, so I don't know what else of that particular revision there is to delete, unless a different revision is under consideration. The translation in the reference appears to be an accurate translation of the cited source, following the edits in Special:Diff/1039766219/1039956873. I can't comment on the veracity or reliability of the previously deleted content or the cited source, since I haven't had a chance to look deeply into the matter. Minh Nguyễn💬02:23, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks and sorry to waste your time. The edit summary had not been removed when I pinged you and we were wondering if the language (in Vietnamese) warranted revision deletion. Johnuniq (talk) 02:52, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Blocked for 1 week due to clear behavioral evidence of block evasion. Warned that further evasion will result in an indefinite block. HighInBCNeed help? Just ask.13:12, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
MoS RfC closure challenge: job title capitalization in infoboxes
I am challenging the close by Chetsford at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography#Government bio infoboxes, should they be decapitalized or not. Chetsford writes in their close: In the absence of a consensus, the status quo (capitalized titles) should be observed. I disagree that that was the status quo. To justify this, Chetsford writes: I believe the status quo is that job titles are capitalized. I base this on the construction of the RfC proposal. No editors objected to the formulation of the proposal ("keep the titles capitalized") which I construe to mean all editors agree that capitalized titles are the status quo. This is based on a non-neutral wording of the RfC, which I did, in fact, dispute during the RfC ([13], [14], [15]). The MoS is quite clear that job titles should be lowercase when modified by ordinals (MOS:JOBTITLE), and that sentence case is used in infoboxes (MOS:CAPS). There is nothing in the MoS that allows for the use of title case in infoboxes. Chetsford acknowledges that this is the case in their close: The second problem that will emerge with this close is a lack of clarity as to the status quo. The "pro de-capping" camp seems to be arguing that lowercase job titles are the statutory status quo, just not one we follow in practice. What we follow in practice is not relevant. There are a lot of users who try to force title case into articles because they don't understand that Wikipedia uses sentence case. What this close has done is create a glaring exception to Wikipedia's widespread, established use of sentence case. When a discussion is closed as WP:NOCONSENSUS, then that close must refer back to the established MoS, not override it with something completely new. Link to discussion with Chetsford prior to this challenge: User talk:Chetsford#Recent close. ― Tartan357Talk01:08, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thus seems like a somewhat silly proposed ground to overturn a carefully considered close. For one thing, the challenge assumes that the question should have been "is title case or sentence case to be used in infoboxes", but, like all other style guides, Wikipedia capitalizes proper nouns so, if a proper noun is included in an infobox entry, it should be capitalized whether the infobox entry itself is in title case or in sentence case. Therefore, Wikipedia's wiseapread, established use of sentence case is not endangered by the close.
What is more, the argument that the status quo should be "titles in lower case in infoboxes", when this is neither empirically true nor based on any explicit statement on policy, seems like an attempt to assume the thing to be proven. The question of the RfC was, should certain titles be capitalized in infoboxes, that is, does the community agree that the policy that some have argued should prohibit capitalization of these titles actually apply to those cases. There was no policy-based consensus on this question, but the fact that two-thirds of editors argued in one way or other than the interpretation of policy that would prevent capitalization was applying that policy outside its appropriate scope, should not simply be ignored. In fact, if anything I would think that the argument for limited scope is well-grounded in WP:CONSENSUS policy. Newimpartial (talk) 01:24, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Newimpartial, Wikipedia capitalizes proper nouns so, if a proper noun is included in an infobox entry, it should be capitalized whether the infobox entry itself is in title case or in sentence case. Yes, but it is an established guideline (MOS:JOBTITLE) that job titles are not proper nouns and should be lowercase when modified. ― Tartan357Talk01:27, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Newimpartial, The argument that the status quo should be "titles in lower case in infoboxes", when this is neither empirically true nor based on any explicit statement on policy. The closer themselves disagrees with you on this. From the close: The first problem that will emerge with this close is that the opposition to no caps consisted largely of WP:VAGUEWAVEs or non-policy arguments like "looks weird" while supporters of no caps consistently argued a guideline, MOS:JOBTITLE, and offered efficient surrebuttals to each rebuttal advanced. ― Tartan357Talk01:29, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think Chetsford's RfC close is decent, and he is correct in stating that In this case we have one-thirds of editors arguing that MOS:JOBTITLE is controlling and... two-thirds... [arguing] that JOBTITLE is not controlling. Arguing the non-applicability of a policy is, in my opinion, equivalent to arguing for an alternate policy. A 'no consensus' close in this case means the titles should stay capitalized in the infoboxes (see the infoboxes for Joe Biden, Justin Trudeau, Boris Johnson etc. for example). (Note: I participated in the RfC.) Some1 (talk) 01:52, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I think this is a GF request for review by Tartan357 and support uninvolved editors carefully reviewing the close and considering the points Tartan357 has made here. While I stand by the close, this was a difficult RfC and it's well within the realm of possibility I read it incorrectly. Chetsford (talk) 01:57, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Chestford, could you help us understand what tipped you over into 'no consensus'? Much of your closing statement uplifts the JOBTITLES argument and challenges the capitalization crew's points. Which pro-capitalization policy arguments were convincing to you? Firefangledfeathers (talk) 02:08, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Unless editors feel strongly otherwise, I'd prefer to let the closing statement stand on its own so that the review isn't muddied with what could be construed as after-the-fact rationalizations by me. I'm not sure it would be fair to Tartan357 if I started offering advanced explanations here and it's probably best if the close is reviewed as written, otherwise it's not really a review of the close. Again, though, if several editors feel strongly otherwise, I'll revisit this. Chetsford (talk) 02:24, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I am not ultra-familiar with the procedure here, having only read WP:CLOSECHALLENGE. Is it frowned upon to explain the closing statement? If so, I suppose an alternate framing of my question is: do you stand by a statement that summarizes the discussion by saying
"opposition to no caps consisted largely of WP:VAGUEWAVEs or non-policy arguments like "looks weird" while supporters of no caps consistently argued a guideline, MOS:JOBTITLE, and offered efficient surrebuttals to each rebuttal advanced."
but then decides on no consensus? It is difficult for uninvolved editors to understand what led to the tie when all the points are awarded to one side. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 02:30, 25 August 2021 (UTC) - partial strike 02:55, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing is written in stone, however, I read the precept that close review is to review "the outcome stated by the closing editor" as meaning the purpose here is to review the outcome as stated in the close, which precludes after-the-fact corollaries or supplements. "It is difficult for uninvolved editors to understand what led to the tie when all the points are awarded to one side." In this case, I would think an uninvolved editor would want to !vote to overturn the close and relist. I will say one thing, however, which is that I think a "tie" is fundamentally different than "no consensus". A tie implies all things are equal while "no consensus", in my mind, recognizes that objections which are both widespread and legitimate will remain unaddressed if a definitive conclusion is applied. Chetsford (talk) 02:38, 25 August 2021 (UTC); edited 02:51, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I find that position to be rational, though personally frustrating. Thank you for your guidance. I'll think on it, and I hope to see some opinions from uninvolved editors/admins. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 02:46, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Responding to your point about my "tie" comment: I've struck that portion. I was using the language as a flippant analogy, and don't think it represents your close, or my own points, very well. Apologies. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 02:55, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the RFC question was quite clear. I'm no fortune teller, but I know of a lot of articles where local editors will fight against lowercasing in the infoboxes' of their respective country's political offices. Take a look around, the status quo in the infoboxes are clearly uppercasing with or without ordinals. GoodDay (talk) 02:14, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
There is a discretionary element to closing a discussion, when deciding: adherence to policy through the strength of arguments and, more tabouli, also numbers (shh, don't tell). Sometime, the situation calls for explaining one's reasoning for their close when challenged. Other times, simply letting the close stand in its own right in the course of a review, is a perfectly valid (and smart) thing to do. BTW, I tried reading the discussion, but my eyes glazed over. Couldn't really understand a lick of it. But I'm slow, so... El_C03:10, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
My take: I have a very particular perspective here. Although I did not participate in the RFC, I am, on the one hand, a staunch defender of MOS:JOBTITLES (see my edit history) and think it is obvious that it requires infoboxes to be rendered in sentence case. In response to Chetsford's observation that In this case we have one-thirds of editors arguing that MOS:JOBTITLE is controlling and... two-thirds... [arguing] that JOBTITLE is not controlling, I would point out first, that in determining consensus, [t]he quality of an argument is more important than whether it represents a minority or a majority view, and second, that there is no cognizable argument that JOBTITLES permits infoboxes to be rendered in title case. All the arguments offered for that position in the RFC were in fact policy arguments. Tartan357 is therefore correct that the RFC ought to have been closed in favor of sentence casing infoboxes.
On the other hand, in spite of my unwavering allegiance to JOBTITLES, I think, as a matter of policy, that it is a bad idea to render infoboxes in sentence case. In other words, I agree with the policy arguments advanced by the pro-cap camp, even though I believe the anti-cap camp's arguments are actually controlling here. Because I believe the most desirable outcome is actually prohibited by JOBTITLES, I would suggest that an exception to JOBTITLES be established for infoboxes. Of course, any proposal for a modification to JOBTITLES is likely to be met with substantial resistance by editors who, like myself, feel that that guideline is constantly under attack and that without it, Wikipedia would read somewhat like a government press release or a corporate brochure. Editors seeking such an exception should therefore take care to define it narrowly to avoid setting off any slippery-slope alarm bells. Wallnot (talk) 12:31, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Months ago (can't remember where) as a warning, I predicted that (with WP:JOBTITLES as their excuse) an editor would start pushing for lowercasing in the infoboxes of political offices in bios. But few to none would believe me. At that time already, political offices in bio intros & bio sections & subsection, had been lower-cased. So now it's come to pass, with Tartan357 kicking it off at Joe Biden's article, where I reverted him, we had a little dispute on the talkpage, which led to my opening up the very RFC, that he's now challenging the closure & ruling of. If Chetsford's ruling is overturned? The article titles will be the next target for the lower-case pushers. We'll be seeing Prime Minister of Australia changed to Prime minister of Australia (for example). AFAIK, it's currently not possible to change it to prime minister of Australia, fortunately. GoodDay (talk) 14:04, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That's not true, because JOBTITLES explicitly makes a distinction between "President of the United States" and "9th president of the United States", so those defending the application of JOBTITLES in infoboxes wouldn't suggest that change as their next target. No one has suggested lowercasing the first letter of article titles either. That slippery slope is not at all likely to happen, at least not from the same editors. —El Millo (talk) 16:24, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The requested move about changing it back to Deputy Prime Minister of Canada already has four Supports specifically citing JOBTITLES, while the only one that cited JOBTITLES to Oppose said he may have to rethink this and is suddenly not so sure. So your prediction is incorrect. If editors start moving these articles to lowercase it'll be against JOBTITLES, not in accordance with it. This is an RM you have participated it, so you must've noticed it. —El Millo (talk) 03:15, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That unilateral move, is a sign of things to come. If you get this RFC closure overturned in your favour. What are you going to do, when editors in their local political areas start fighting against lowercasing in the infoboxes? Report them all to ANI? All some of you are doing, is stirring up a hornet's nest, merely to get your own way. GoodDay (talk) 03:21, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Depends how they're "fighting". If they argue with policy-based arguments and logic, then great. That's all being asked here. If they argue with "looks weird", "I don't like it", etc., then they'll just not succeed. —El Millo (talk) 03:28, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
There was no consensus to lowercase the political offices in the infoboxes, with or without ordinals. Thus RFC closure should stand. You few are only gonna cause a lot of disruption across hundreds of bios. GoodDay (talk) 03:41, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn per WP:CLOSECHALLENGE as "the closure was not a reasonable summation of the discussion". Specifically, the close identified that one side had no policy argument, but then equated non-policy points with "arguing for an alternate policy". I find this to be ill-advised by guideline and best practice. In my view, Chetsford accurately analyzed the PAG arguments at play, saying:
"opposition to no caps consisted largely of WP:VAGUEWAVEs or non-policy arguments like "looks weird" while supporters of no caps consistently argued a guideline, MOS:JOBTITLE, and offered efficient surrebuttals to each rebuttal advanced."
Chetsford later describes the former group as making "no policy based argument at all."WP:DISCARD is clear about how to deal with the non-policy points: by "discarding irrelevant arguments: those that flatly contradict established policy, those based on personal opinion only...". Instead, Chetsford offers that "Arguing the non-applicability of a policy is, in my opinion, equivalent to arguing for an alternate policy." Why is that the case? On this one point rests the entirety of the no consensus close. If generalized, such a position would be damaging to the project. Can any well-reasoned policy argument be defeated by enough "I don't like it"s, simply because they will be construed by the closer as equivalent to policy arguments? This non-explanation of the heart of the close means that the discussion has been unreasonably summarized, and that we therefore have good reason to overturn. I also second Tartan357's points about 'no consensus' pointing in the wrong direction. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 02:59, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Uphold closure - The RFC's closure is quite accurate & correctly judged. The status quo among bios infoboxes of politicians, is capitalisation with or without ordinals. GoodDay (talk) 03:03, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, the fact that there's disagreement over the closure, is itself proof of there being no consensus & thus we maintain the status-quo, -capitalisation-. GoodDay (talk) 03:59, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn, echoing Firefangledfeathers. Contrary to what GoodDay says, the "status quo" is what the guideline tells us to do, and the guidelines are clear, despite longstanding practice: first, JOBTITLES is clear that a title preceded by an ordinal is rendered lowercase unless before a name, and headings in an infobox are sentence case, not title case. This is a clear case of if a then b plus if b then c leading to if a then c. Again, I say all this in spite of the fact that I think another RFC should take place in order to establish an exception to JOBTITLES for precisely this purpose. But as the guidelines currently stand, there can be no question that they require the lowercasing of these headings in infoboxes. Wallnot (talk) 21:40, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Must I repeat myself? [T]he "status quo" is what the guideline tells us to do, and the guidelines are clear, despite longstanding practice.}
Comment – I think the question to answer here is: what exactly is the status quo? Is it what the guideline says should be done, or is it what's usually done? —El Millo (talk) 22:00, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I cite Wallnot above: JOBTITLES is clear that a title preceded by an ordinal is rendered lowercase unless before a name, and headings in an infobox are sentence case, not title case. This is a clear case of if a then b plus if b then c leading to if a then c. This is all included in the guidelines. There's no need for it to be explicitly stated that it applies to political infoboxes. It should be explicitly stated if political infoboxes were an exception to the rule. If you want for that to be explicitly stated, argue for it. —El Millo (talk) 22:21, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You (and a small number of editors) can't force the community to accept what you think is right. Drop the challenge to the RFC closure & move on. GoodDay (talk) 22:27, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Stop treating this as some kind of war. Just argue in favor of your position instead of trying to paint the other side as if they were "forcing" others to abide by their wishes. I still haven't made up my mind about whether the close was correct or not. The guideline says one thing, common practice in these articles isn't in line with the guideline. Which of these is the status quo, I'm not sure yet, until either side convinces me. —El Millo (talk) 22:40, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Facu-el Millo: My attempt to do just that: My attempt to try to do that: the status quo must be what the guideline says to do, not what is commonly done despite what the guidelines say, because to do otherwise would be to make the guidelines meaningless. If the status quo were based on what is commonly done, then any editor who wants to avoid its application to a specific article could simply contest it and, when the parties failed to reach a consensus, the false "status quo" would remain in place. This is, incidentally, exactly what DuncanHill tried to do to me with the Home Secretary article, apparently hoping that I'd go away or back down before a much more experienced editor. I raised that procedural point there, and I raise it again here, because to do otherwise allows small groups of editors to sabotage the application of clearly established guidelines simply by refusing to agree, even where (as here) they offer no real arguments in favor of their position.
Just as a side note, I believe the guidelines should actually be changed to reflect GoodDay's wishes, because a) it looks better and b) (and this is the dispositive factor, because so many argue (a) in favor of eliminating JOBTITLES altogether) contrary to the application of JOBTITLES elsewhere, capitalizing the headings in an infobox is not contrary to established practice in academia and journalism (capitalizing titles when they do not precede a title is contrary to that practice). I argue in favor of overturning the RFC result nonetheless because it is a bad idea to put in place a consensus that expressly contradicts a guideline without bothering to change that guideline. Wallnot (talk) 22:49, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
In July 2021 Clemrutter received another warning for copyright violations, this time on Integrated education. This was labeled as a final warning, and Clemrutter was again indefinitely blocked by Diannaa on 4 August 2021 for copyright violations on Northern Ireland Curriculum. The ~2000 edits since the December 2020 unblock have been added to the CCI and will also need to be reviewed for issues. Discussion is currently ongoing on how to appeal this block on their talk. Had they not been unblocked, the issue could have been resolved at the time, and the current situation and block would not have happened- the unblock set ClemRutter up to be blocked again.
After the block, I questioned Mike Peel on his talk with slightly altered version of what I wrote above. The resulting discussion can be seen here; I encourage any reading this to go and read it all. I was concerned with the involved unblock given his board candidacy, and I found his responses to me and later Diannaa and Ponyo to be very lacking, and repeatedly demonstrated a lack of understanding. Mike Peel repeatedly claimed that Diannaa should have not done the indef herself and she should have taken it to ANI or Arbcom- "My point is that Clem *shouldn't* be a special case - indef blocking is a big thing that should get ANI or arbcom support, unless it's clearly WP:SNOW and/or an intractable user problem.", which I thought was a problematic and incorrect interpretation of the blocking/reporting policy. Ponyo also noted issues as well, saying "Reading through this thread gives me the strong impression that you unblocked Clem because Diannaa didn't handle the blocking as you personally would have, not because there was anything procedurally incorrect with her block according to policy. There are many statements that you've made above that also lead me to believe that you are out of touch with how and when many active administrators on this project choose to use an indefinite block." Mike Peel responded to this with "Look at it another way: I believe my unblock following the unblock request was per policy. We're talking about the general issue in more detail in this discussion, and I'll happily admit that I'm expressing my opinions here rather than quoting policy. Thanks", and after a response from Diannaa, there have been no updates to the discussion for a week, even though there are still unaddressed concerns. I have pondered on whether or not I should bring this here, since I'm unsure what actions to take or if any action is needed, but I think this is something the community should know about given the current board elections and to have more eyes on the CCI and ClemRutter's situation. And as a reminder for other admins, please be careful when unblocking users for copyright violations. Moneytrees🏝️Talk/CCI guide18:51, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I stand by my actions and my comments (but please read them in full and in context, which doesn't seem to be the case with the quotes here.). I'm interested to see what other admins think to this situation, and my actions. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 18:57, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
From a review of the (in full) talk page discussions linked above, I'd say Diannaa is essentially completely correct, and Mike is mostly wrong. Diannaa's first indef block was fine. Mike's unblock was technically within policy, but outside accepted practice (unilaterally, against the desire of the blocking admin, based on an incorrect assumption of a lack of warnings). Diannaa's second indef block is fine. Mike does not seem to have a good understanding of how blocking works, and shouldn't be telling other people what is required for blocking/unblocking until he re-educates himself. In particular, he is wrong that an admin should go to ANI or ArbCom before indef blocking someone. He is also wrong that Diannaa should have tried shorter blocks first. He is also wrong that Diannaa should have stepped aside and have some other admin take over. He is also wrong that CR was blocked without warnings. I will say that bringing up Mike's WMF board candidacy is probably a red herring. Finally, if Mike thinks Moneytrees' summary is inaccurate ("but please read them in full and in context, which doesn't seem to be the case with the quotes here"), he should say where. If it actually is in context, then claiming without evidence that it is inaccurate is unethical. As for what to do about it, I don't know, it depends on whether they take feedback here at AN onboard. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:51, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Floquenbeam: Thanks for the review. I'm listening. Some points in response: with ANI or ArbCom, my point with that comment was that admins shouldn't feel like they are going at it alone - if they're coming across problems like this, then it's worth getting other admins to have a look as well, both with the specific issue (to get more opinions on the case), and also generally (to get more admins involved in copyvio patrolling). Note the use of the word 'should', not 'must' - but on hindsight, using 'could' would have been better. With the quotes above, it was specifically with the last quote, where "... was per policy" and "... rather than quoting policy" both appear but were about separate things (first about the unblock; second about the extended comments), and I think quoting them together confuses the issue. thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 06:17, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, this was a terrible unblock. Not only was it based on an incorrect understanding (that CR had not been sufficiently warned), but MP clearly misunderstood the reasons for the block (it wasn't about the Thinking School article) and even admitted that he "hadn't checked the user's other edits". Simply, like BLP issues, we don't mess about with copyright blocks after a user has been repeatedly warned, regardless of how prolific a contributor they are - they should be indefinite. I doubt if there's anything we can do about the original unblock eight months later, but what is very clear is that MP should certainly not be taking further administrative action regarding Clem Rutter, and probably needs to read up more clearly on the more complex areas (i.e. not simple vandalism etc.) of blocking and unblocking before taking any more actions. Black Kite (talk)20:11, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Why doesn't it surprise me that this editor has been an administrator for 14 years? Isn't it time we took a bit more seriously suggestions of term limits for admins? Phil Bridger (talk) 20:15, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
We have plenty of veteran admins who use their tools regularly and are very familiar with how to use them. The problem mostly comes with veteran admins who don't use the tools very often (Mike, for example, has used block/unblock precisely four times in the last ten years). We would be better off with an activity limit, rather than a term limit, but this has been rejected in the past as it's too easy to game. Black Kite (talk)20:28, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with BK. Mike Peel has been very active, very productive, and very useful. This is not a case of legacy admins clinging to the bit. It's not about lack of activity overall, and not a case of someone being an admin too long. It's not even a matter of someone not using block/unblock much. It's a case of someone not using the block/unblock button much, and then using it in a situation where they didn't research the situation, and then lecturing an admin who is familiar with blocking/unblocking. It's not important that an admin be active in all areas, but it is important that an admin know what they don't know. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:37, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Phil Bridger, Black Kite, and Floquenbeam: Just to point out that I regularly use the admin tools for things that aren't logged (e.g., I have a bot that creates Wikidata items for articles, and it's useful to go back and look at deleted articles to see what happened to help debug the bot), for editing protected pages (particularly in the template domain), and for deletion (although not as much as I would have liked, since I've mostly been working in other areas and have limited time/energy). I'm not too active with blocking/unblocking, I'm familiar with the technical tools but - clearly - not all aspects of the social side of it. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 06:26, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I have not looked at the blocks/unblocks, and do not have time to do it right now, but if we managed to solve a similar problem with Elisa.rolle, may be we can solve the problem here without indefinite blocks? The user has 40+K edits, which are hopefully not all represent copyright violations.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:53, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You can see by his talk page that ClemRutter cannot yet be unblocked even as of today, because as far as I can tell from his remarks there, he still doesn't understand why he was blocked or what he did wrong, and has an inadequate understanding of how copyright law applies to Wikipedia editing.— Diannaa (talk) 21:52, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Since that editor was indefinitely blocked for an extended period of time, it may not be a good example of how to deal with the situation without an indefinite block. isaacl (talk) 21:54, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, it could provide a path to end an indefinite block. Since there is already an indefinite block in place, though, the connotation of solving the problem without indefinite blocks is to lift it summarily, and it's a bit tricky to draw that conclusion from the example, which also had a failed appeal. I agree that it's always good to see editors willing to participate in learning initiatives, from both the teaching and learning sides. isaacl (talk) 22:43, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I've been aware of ClemRutter's latest block, and deeply saddened by it. I hadn't been aware of the earlier block, but reading through it, I can't fault either of the blocks, and I don't understand the December unblock. FWIW, I was lucky enough to 'meet' Clem last year, at an on-line London meetup on Zoom, and I don't for a second doubt his good faith, or his commitment to our project. He taught me a few things, and I was inspired by his passion. I can understand why MP might want to see CR unblocked (I do too), but that has to come on the back of some serious undertakings from CR to take the copyright policy seriously, and to take on board the feedback he's been given in the last few months. GirthSummit (blether)22:02, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, ClemRutter is clearly in good faith and does not strike me as someone who has intentionally done wrong, I would like to see them unblocked and not having issues with copyright for sure. What I would like to happen is: Mike Peel acknowledges the erroneous unblock and apologizes to Diannaa, ClemRutter is able to understand the copyright issues and gets unblocked, and the CCI gets all nice and cleaned up. Moneytrees🏝️Talk/CCI guide22:09, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
At the moment I feel able to offer a limited (but not full - see below) apology to @Diannaa: I apologise for interfering in your workflow when dealing with CCI cases by making the unblock in this case.That said, I am generally disappointed that the conversation that I explicitly expected to see after the unblock did not happen. This is to both sides: I was expecting Clem to be much more proactive in figuring out what the problems were, and active in fixing them. I was also expecting Diannaa to follow up with the issues on Clem's talk page or at CCI. That seems to be happening now, after the second block, which is good to see (and this is part of why I don't personally plan to unblock them again). However, I still think this should have been able to happen without one party being blocked and having to have their answers copy-pasted to other pages when necessary. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 07:17, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Diannaa Would there be a problem changing the block to a partial block from article space? That would allow CR to participate in discussions easily, without (I think?) any risk of his introducing more copyvios. Just a thought. GirthSummit (blether)10:59, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, yes, totally - I'd like to hope though that CR would have the sense not to start putting copyvios on talk pages. At the moment people are having to copy/paste his comments into discussions, which seems unnecessary - it's not like he's a vandal who's going around abusing people on talk. Perhaps keep blocked from article/draft/file spaces, but allow engagement on talk until he's shown that he understands the concerns? GirthSummit (blether)12:17, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Given that CR has already been indeffed once for copyright violations, and carried on anyway, I don't think that being blocked is going to get the message across by itself. Hut 8.512:30, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Mentoring sounds like a good idea on paper, but so far I have not been getting through to him as to what he needs to do differently, so I may be the wrong person to do the mentoring? Or perhaps he believes he was right and I am wrong, and will suddenly see the light and unblock? See for example this post of August 20, where he misinterprets how much copying is allowed, states that the patrolling admin must get consensus on the talk page before removing violations of the copyright policy, and states that the violation that got him blocked was "so minor that it is beneath the threshold of concern". He has not yet posted an unblock request either. So there's no clear path forward at this point. I haven't formed an opinion of the usefulness of a partial unblock; so far I have copied two posts to file talk pages for two files I have nominated for deletion, that's not a big inconvenience (at this point, anyways). — Diannaa (talk) 14:40, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Diannaa, OK, understood, it was just a thought. I feel very warmly about Clem following our face-to-face discussion last year, he is passionate about education and is very much aligned with our mission of disseminating information. His failure to take on board what you have been telling him about copyright violations is baffling to me however, and I can entirely understand your frustration with the situation - I think you have been very professional in how you are interacting with him, given the situation. GirthSummit (blether)17:08, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Mike Peel, it doesn't seem realistic for you to expect that I would take over the task of mentoring after you unblocked after two hours without consulting me or even notifying me. I was angry and I walked away. I guess that was a mistake on my part; I didn't think it through that I would likely be the person who would end up cleaning up the resulting mess. I am still angry, too. Fact: Clem won't figure out what the problems were or be responsive to teaching until he admits there is a problem. That still hasn't happened. — Diannaa (talk) 14:51, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Diannaa: You already seemed to have taken on that job (not quite mentoring, but the role of correction) by warning + blocking them. My unblock shouldn't have changed that IMO - or at least that's what I expected. A clear message saying that you were walking away from it would have been useful. Sorry that you're angry - but that also isn't helpful here. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 15:58, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Mike Peel, If you step into a situation and overrule somebody by doing things your way, you should be prepared to own the issue from then on. If you don't believe me, try cleaning the company fridge wherever you work and see who ends up doing it next time. MrOllie (talk) 17:00, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Honestly that unblock is a slap in the face to editors who deal with copyright issues. Nobody should be unblocking someone with a history of copyright problems without first making very sure that there aren't going to be any problems in the future. The unblock happened after a mere two hours with no attempt to discuss with the blocking admin or anyone else apart from this, which erroneously claimed the user hadn't been warned (they'd been warned five times) and criticised the block for being indefinite (which is standard for copyright blocks). Now there are another 2,000 edits which need to be checked for copyright problems, which is probably one of the most tedious tasks on Wikipedia. Hut 8.512:01, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Obviously a bad unblock, and reading Mike, who has used the block button five times in the last 14 years, trying to lecture Dianaa (6301 blocks) and Moneytrees (278 blocks in 18 months) on the blocking policy and CCI is embarrassing. But the elephant in the room is why Mike decided to step in and make this, as far as I can tell, the first unblock request he has ever processed. There has recently been some discussion of whether there's a 'generational' difference in how strict admins are about WP:INVOLVED, but the idea that Mike is a purely disinterested party here just isn't credible. I wouldn't have thought that we'd have to have an explicit policy saying "don't use your admin tools to protect your wiki-friends", but maybe we do. – Joe (talk) 13:53, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
One concerning part of this, if my understanding is correct, is that there is an admin whose only unblock in 14 years was, by their own admission, of someone who they met at a wikimeetup and consider a wikifriend, without first investigating all the facts and based on a misapprehension of those facts, over the opposition of the blocking admin, and without consulting the community or any other admin (for a third opinion) first. But what is even more concerning than that is that 8 months later, MP still stands by his actions and comments. Levivich14:44, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe we should normalize that, if you find out someone's blocked because you're watching their talk page, it shouldn't be you pushing the unblock button. —Cryptic15:04, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Not my only unblock, see my block log. It's rare, but I do unblock sometimes. (I actually thought I'd unblocked more than is on my unblock log here, but maybe that was on other wikis.) Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 15:55, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
In addition to the apparent bias, lack of pre-unblock research, and post unblock follow-up by Mike Peel (if you as an administrator think there needs to be follow up, don't blame others that it might not have occurred to your satisfaction, you do it). Mike Peel should understand that any "injury" runs not just to Diannaa, it runs to community, the copyright holders, and to the unblocked user, as copyright infringement has both ethical and legal dimensions. Administrators may not be able to stop a user from committing infringement elsewhere, but they can prevent a user from getting into that quagmire, here. Thus, the present limited apology to Diannaa (which even to a fellow administrator, seems decidedly weak, and goes on to blame) seems most unsatisfactory, and lacking in understanding. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:18, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
My follow-up has included following discussion on his talk page, and a few off-wiki chats. I can do more if needed, but right now it seems that would do more harm than good. In general, the time to discuss this was back in December when the unblocking was done - not 8 months later - but I guess the timing was to make a political point. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 16:18, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You don't think the timing has anything to do with the recent re-block? You're confident that you're just a victim of political machinations here? Ugh. --Floquenbeam (talk) 16:24, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Not confident, it just seems odd timing. The unblock was 8 months ago, new block was 22 days ago now, the discussion on my talk page had run its course, and then this new conversation was started out of the blue yesterday. Happy if it's just a coincidence though - but since the poster specifically says "I think this is something the community should know about given the current board elections" ... Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 16:38, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Wait a minute. The second block, which more or less proved that your unblock was wrong, occurred on August 4. The discussion on your talk page started a week later on August 12 and continued through August 18. This thread was started a week later on August 25. Nothing was "out of the blue". You continue to stand by your actions, taking none of your colleagues' feedback on board. There are literally zero editors who have said they agree with your actions. You may yet become the subject of an arbcom case request asking for your administrator permissions to be reviewed. This is all definitely relevant to your candidacy for WMF trustee. I advise you to do or say something to fix this immediately; it will not go away on its own, it will only escalate unless you address it to the satisfaction of the community. Levivich16:57, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Levivich basically has the timeline down, I'll add that I was on vacation when the second block happened and once I got home I tried getting to it as soon as I could. I should've been more clear about my concerns; one of the outgoing community elected board members faced COI allegations from the community that they helped get a user who had been targeting someone they were in a relationship with blocked (not that I necessarily believe those allegations but it was a community concern), and another one was sanctioned by Arbcom and later created a copyright-violating mirror to the disapproval of the community. So I think it should be more widely known going forward, because this is something the community cares quite a bit about. I don't really know Mike Peel outside of this, I haven't seen anything to suggest that he is a controversial editor outside of his admin actions. Discussion had ceased after a week and no one aside from Mike Peel seemed satisfied, which was one of the main reasons I brought this here. Moneytrees🏝️Talk/CCI guide18:08, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This is beyond absurd, admins have to do blocks as necessary and Diannaa's original block is per long standing practice. That one admin feels that it should instead be discussed at ANI or by ARBCOM indicates that Mike Peel needs to familiarize himself with our policies and practices first. And finally, an admin who unblocks unilaterally should take some ownership of the problem that follows rather than wash it away with a "had a conversation over tea and crumpets and didn't expect it to continue." —SpacemanSpiff16:43, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I have some wishes. I wish Mike would stop telling Diannaa how to act. What really did he think would be accomplished by this piece of (what I find to be patronizing) advice he wrote after his limited apology to her? I wish Mike would accept responsibility for failing to follow policy around unblocks in 2 of his 3 uses of the tool ever [16][17]. I wish Mike would realize that failing to follow written policy - namely Except in cases of unambiguous error or significant change in circumstances dealing with the reason for blocking, administrators should avoid unblocking users without first attempting to contact the blocking administrator to discuss the matter. - means that he does not know how to use the tool on enwiki. Especially because I have confidence Mike does understand the nuances of "should" judging by his explanation above of what he meant by saying someone should have gone to ANI/ARBCOM. Further, not consulting with the blocking admin isn't a social convention he violated - an example of a social convention violated would be his unblocking of a bloke he liked from a wikimeetup. I wish Mike would realize that this is coming up now because the reblock happened now. Finally I wish Mike the best of luck in his board candidacy - he would bring a lot of skills and experience to the position. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:53, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Barkeep49: Thanks, that's useful. I'm happy to stop Diannaa how to act (which was meant more to explain my thinking/viewpoint - but regardless). I'm happy to accept responsibility for my unblocks and any failings with policy that they have. I'm happy to commit to not unblocking users, if that would be helpful (perhaps to only unblock in the future *after* training/getting approval from an experienced unblocker). I'm also happy to acknowledge the perceived conflict of interest, and that I should have backed off this sooner (or ideally not started with it!). I'm happy to write off the timing as coincidence/due to the reblock. I'd also appreciate any other suggestions of things I can do now to make this right. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 17:11, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
User is accusing me of taking over someone else's account.
If you are a newcomer, you should start your own account, not take over one that has existed since 2008! I've already "bitten" you on a couple of articles because of that. WQUlrich (talk) 10:23, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
That was my first time trying to edit an infobox and using the comment system for voting. The WQUlric is also chaotically changing some of my Wikipedia edits without proper references.Tzim78 (talk) 10:55, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Well it is odd that someone with 4000 edits and an account since 2008 would describe themselves as a "newcomer", but on the other hand, the majority of their edits have come since April of this year - before that they were very sporadic. Pawnkingthree (talk) 11:11, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
In the context of the relevant comment, it's worth pointing out that they've made only a handful of edits - ever - outside the main namespace, and obviously none regarding an RfC. Though I'd agree that pointing to WP:AGF would have been a better response, I'm not seeing any significant discontinuities in editing here. -- zzuuzz(talk)11:23, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I put on my good faith cap, and left you some cookies as a very belated welcome. FWIW I do not see evidence of an account switch, and your additions appear consistent since 2020 (when your uptick of contributions started and you first created new aricles). Now, I may be missing something here, as I only spent some time here, I would suggest that WQUlrich pony up evidence of what they are claiming or alternatively assume good faith.--Eostrix (🦉 hoothoot🦉)11:58, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for looking into this. I was serious, and not just because of that one comment. As for my "chaotic" changes, they mostly involve restoring information he deleted, deleting irrelevant information, correcting grammar, and making his sentences follow one another in a logical order (not to mention correcting some plain old mistakes). In short, his edits do not strike me as having come from someone who has been editing since 2008 and claims to be a native speaker of English. He actually admits it's his first time editing an infobox. Anyway, whether I'm right or wrong is moot at this point, really. I hope he lets my present edits stand (and be changed by someone else, if they really need to be). I will assiduously avoid making any more to articles I didn't create, and be hesitant about the ones I did. WQUlrich (talk) 12:09, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
PS: I'm not questioning the "good faith" of his edits...they simply seem very much like the work of a newcomer who is not what he claims to be on his User page. And I want to assure you, I'm not the sort of person who deletes or changes edits "just because". I'm seriously concerned about whether something is an improvement or not. WQUlrich (talk) 12:40, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe I am confused, but I think that User:WQUlrich is confused. WQU posted a multi-part message to my user talk page, resulting in a large number of email notifications, but I looked to my talk page and saw nothing, and then found that they had deleted it (which would have resulted in the last of the email notices). It isn't clear what they are saying, except that they seem to think that User:Tzim78 has taken over someone else's account. It appears to me and to Pawnkingthree that what Tz has done is to increase the regularity of their editing. They are also citing BITE in their own defense, which is undesirable, but does not seem as undesirable as panicking because an editor has started editing more often. Maybe someone should explain something, but maybe WQU should exhale and stop running in circles. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:51, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Charlesmm2021(talk· contribs · deleted contribs · logs ·filter log· block user ·block log) is one in a series of throwaway accounts editing Lime (band)(edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs), which has a complicated and bizarre history. Others:
I tried to clean it up and (correctly) predicted I'd regret it. Apparently the only thing all editors agree on is the founders, but who may or may not have succeeded them as band members and reliable sourcing as to the "impostors" is non existent although one edit claims a trademark. I protected it to stop the BLP issues, which led to the above legal threat, but any longterm solutions? StarMississippi18:56, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
In terms of long-term solutions - AfD looks like a possibility. I skimmed the sources in the article, and all the ones I looked at give the subject negligible coverage - the better ones are about other artists covering their work. I'm not an expert on notability in pop bands, but from a non-expert perspective it's looking quite ropey, and deletion would stop the disruption... GirthSummit (blether)22:17, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Full protection note
I really must insist that this doesn't become another thread of discussion on the situation, but I'd just like to note for transparency that I have fully protected Johnpacklambert's talk page. I've done this as further discussion by other editors is not going to help. I have set the full protection to expire in 5 days (31st August), so it'll be clear before any TPA is restored. I would respectably ask that although an administrator could edit the page, that they do not. If anyone objects to my decision, a simple note here will suffice and I'll revert it. ~TNT (she/they • talk) 22:35, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]