Archived DRN Cases

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160 161, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170 171, 172, 173, 174, 175, 176, 177, 178, 179, 180 181, 182, 183, 184, 185, 186, 187, 188, 189, 190 191, 192, 193, 194, 195, 196, 197, 198, 199, 200 201, 202, 203, 204, 205, 206, 207, 208, 209, 210 211, 212, 213, 214, 215, 216, 217, 218, 219, 220 221, 222, 223, 224, 225, 226, 227, 228, 229, 230 231, 232, 233, 234, 235, 236, 237, 238, 239, 240 241, 242, 243, 244, 245, 246

This page has archives. Sections may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 1 section is present.

Current disputes

– Discussion in progress.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Cash Cash (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Chubbles (talk · contribs)
• 2point5ken (talk · contribs)
• LaurenCastellano (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

The dispute ranges over several talk page sections and has gone on for months; an extensive review of the talk page is advised. Currently, there is a user, 2point5ken, who believes the genre "emo-pop" should not be placed in the infobox. He has removed the genre and the accompanying references (to music review sites Allmusic.com and Pop Matters), and replaced the term with "synthpop", which he has footnoted with two Wikipedia articles. The current dispute is over whether either or both of these genres ought to be associated with the band, and what referencing should accompany them. In the recent past, another editor, LaurenCastellano, who remains heavily involved in editing the page, also questioned "emo-pop", but this was eventually resolved without the need for external intervention. She has not entered into the recent fray but remains indirectly involved.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I believe the main issue is a misunderstanding of what constitutes appropriate criteria for inclusion and appropriate sourcing. I attempted several times to explain the unreliability of personal opinions about genre judgments, and the utility of reliable sources in determining appropriate genre. I do not object to "synthpop" being added per se, but I do object to the sourcing used, and previous edits have made sourcing of infobox genres necessary because they have been found to be contentious.

How do you think we can help?

External scrutiny is needed, since discussion has become entrenched and regular reversion is occurring. I come here in hopes that outside viewers can help both parties determine whether "emo pop", "synth pop", both, or neither should appear in the inbox, and what sourcing is necessary to back them up.

Summary of dispute by 2point5ken

“emopop” should not be listed on this page and corrected to “synthpop” for various reasons. Classifying Cash Cash using the word "Emo" is misleading & incorrect. The word Emo relates to band like Senses Fail, Fall Out Boy, Hawthorne Heights. Cash Cash is nothing close to them. Their early releases were in the vein of electronica synth pop bands such as Hellogoodbye & 3oh3 which are both listed as synthpop on wikipedia. The sourced wikipedia pages pertaining to Cash Cash's early work, which is the material in question, are also listed as “synthpop.”

Regardless of it being ‘emo’ or ‘emo - pop’ When a researcher sees the word ‘emo’ anywhere on the page they are left with the impression of dark, emotional, depressing, or deep lyrical content either paired with yelling, soft light vocals, or even screaming. That is what the word “emo” evokes to music listeners because it defines bands that were hardcore screaming & singing about dark depressing issues / self inflicting actions in an overly dramatic way; this occurrence makes “emo” a very confusing & misleading word. Cash Cash began as a jubilant synthpop act that did some tours with a few “emo” artists along with many other bands of different styles including rap, metal, and even rnb; but that does not justify them to be listed as any of those genres. If that was the case we could call them Rap because they toured with Tyga.

Listning emo - pop is also a total contradiction considering the wiki definition of emo pop is “blending "youthful angst" with "slick production" and mainstream appeal, using "high-pitched melodies, rhythmic guitars, and lyrics concerning adolescence, relationships, and heartbreak." Cash Cash was known to have the opposite lyrical content making “pop” the only correct word in the phrase. Their early work was happy, bright & filled with synths, keyboards, & vocoder. Listing “emopop” is bias, confusing, negative, and a huge contradiction.

It’s also very negative & offensive to them and I’m going to elaborate why. Cash Cash was on the opposite side of the emopop movement. “Emo” stems from the word “emotional.” Bands like Dashboard Confessional, Brand New, & The Get Up Kids greatly embraced the term. On the contrary, Cash Cash’s lyrical content along with music strayed far away from emo given their “Bubble Gum” lyrics. Their first single was called “Party In Your Bedroom,” and is self explanatory of what they were about during that era. They were bubbly “sythpop” not “emopop.” Both genres are very different and should not be confused. Cash Cash doesn't deserve to have their reputation confused & degraded because someone is hooked on the idea that they were "emopop" because of an opinionated review. Wikipedia is simply not the place to list things based off of biased reviews or opinions. It's not fair to the group or researchers. Considering the argument at hand, I feel it would be smart to actually leave both off the page and base this section around their main official genres as stated by user: LaurenCastellano: (Dance, Pop, Electronica, Progressive House, Electro House, Nu - Disco) leaving no debate or confusion but was ok with correcting “emopop” to “synthpop” hoping that would be the compromise with user Chubbles. I’m ok with “synthpop” because at least it’s not a contradicting or confusing genre to describe their early stuff.

Summary of dispute by LaurenCastellano

"Emopop" is also not an official genre respected by retailers or music outlets and is a genre created by bias listeners…so whose to say whose wrong or right? At this point It would be best to keep the genres focused on how the band's material was / is being officially released as and not based off of bias reviews because wiki is not a review site or blog - it’s supposed to be encyclopedic. All their official releases through major outlets have been listed as either Dance, Pop, Electronica, Progressive House, Electro House, Nu - Disco. The sub genres that have been recently added are sub genres that the dance community classifies them as + how their music is listed in niche places like Beatport and such.

Allmusic’s side bar currently does not respect or list “emopop” under styles or genres because it was based off a biased review of the album that didn’t match up with the band. If someone wants to call the band “emopop” in a review that’s 100% ok but it’s wrong to use it in an factual place such as an article on Wiki especially since it’s a sensitive subject. Wikipedia is a place of factual information and not opinion, promo, or critique. Given both wiki pages of their early stuff, I have to agree that the correct definition of their early sound is “synthpop,” plus nobody seems to disagree about that.

Talk:Cash Cash discussion

Administrative note: Thanks to T-Man, all parties have been notified of this DRN filing.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 12:34, 19 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I left notice on the article talk page, rather than user pages, since all parties are making regular commentary there. But thank you for going the extra mile on notification. Chubbles (talk) 16:11, 19 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Core of the dispute

Dear Chubbles, 2point5ken and LaurenCastellano: This case is now open for discussion. Thank you for remaining civil and limiting your discussion points to issues of content only. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:22, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It seems that the core of the dispute is whether or not "synthpop" and "emopop" should be listed in the infobox as genres. Is this correct?-- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:19, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have no objection to synthpop being added if it is appropriately referenced, and I believe that the current footnotes, which are Wikipedia pages, are not sufficiently reliable sources. Chubbles (talk) 23:33, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

– New discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Russia#MISTAKE IN RANKING NOMINAL GDP.It's 9th! (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Robert McClenon (talk · contribs)
• Iryna Harpy (talk · contribs)
• Sergecross73 (talk · contribs)
• Gladio4772 (talk · contribs)
• Taivo (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

There is a dispute about Russia's ranking among other nations in terms on GDP. This is a content dispute, but is getting heated, due to one editor accusing others of vandalism.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

One editor went to Wikipedia talk: Help desk (not really the correct forum), and was told there and on his talk page that the edits were not vandalism. Advice has been given to go to this dispute resolution noticeboard.

How do you think we can help?

First, an outside editor is requested to review the GDP data. Second, another editor needs to remind Gladio4772 (who was previously editing as an IP) not to make allegations of vandalism in this content dispute.

Summary of dispute by Iryna Harpy

I wouldn't qualify this as a dispute but a bit of a conflation fiasco. A section dedicated to disputing the GDP in an entirely different capacity was taken up by IP user 151.40.12.61 on 8 July [6].

The greater 'dispute' was initiated out of the blue by User:Crossswords on 3 July with this edit [7], then reverted by me a couple of days later when I noticed it [8], noting that the IMF is used for GDP, PPP and related statistics for all nation-states in Wikipedia. Crossswords reverted a few days later using a less than WP:CIVIL edit summary here [9], and slow edit warring began with his/her reverting other editors who recognise IMF as a WP:RS who had been reverting him/her. Crossswords continued with this behaviour, making spurious demands of anyone contesting his/her "bold" content change [10]. This culminated with Crossswords blanking the GDP section on the talk page [11], and I responded by reinstating the section and asking why, if the user believes that the World Bank should be used as a standard, s/he is only challenging the IMF for the Russia article rather than starting an RS/N for the sake of parity on all nation-state articles.

The section on the article talk page seems to have been turned into a catch-all for a two separate 'disputes', further compounded by input by a couple of anonymous users with dynamic IPs. If IP user 151.40.12.61 has now created an account as User:Gladio4772, I would suggest that the user has difficulties in reading statistics and doesn't understand assume good faith, being uncivil, or treating Wikipedia as a battleground: but this is merely the equivalent of disruptive behaviour and being pointy without even understanding what it means. The user hasn't actually edited the article as an IP or under their new user name.

The problematic editing lies with Crossswords who has done his/her utmost to avoid WP:BRD and has engaged in a plethora of tendentious editing activities whilst trying to fly under the radar. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:10, 20 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Why only World Bank should be used as GDP source

First of all to the russia 8th or 9th debate the 2014 IMF data for 2014 is all estimates as you can see here, the green blocks are estimates not final. How ever i think IMF GDP data shouldnt be used for any wikipedia article about countries why? Because IMF uses outdated exchange rate for their PPP gdp data, the exchange rate are coming from the ICP which is a group owned by Word Bank in fact. So World Bank always has the latest exchange rate. The IMF itself uses these data from this organisation which they state themselves, as you can read in the following [QUOTE]The International Comparisons Program (ICP) is a global statistical initiative that produces internationally comparable Purchasing Power Parity (PPP) estimates. The PPP exchange rate estimates, maintained and published by the World Bank, the OECD, and other international organizations, are used by WEO to calculate its own PPP weight time series. Currently, WEO PPP exchange rates are based on the ICP’s 2005 round but these will be updated upon the release of the 2011 round of estimates. For more information, you can go to the World Bank’s ICP page at http://www.worldbank.org/data/icp.[/QUOTE] So baiscly IMF PPP data was from 2005 while World Banks is now from 2011 measuring the similar living standards of economies while IMF is still too lazy updating them, nothing they do so far. But lets be logic here Wikipedia shouldnt use IMF in the first place if their PPP data is depended on the World Bank anyway. Therefore it should be replaced by World Bank data as their PPP data is always up to date. Thats why you can see that IMF and WB have different PPP numbers, its because IMFs data is outdated in the first place as they use an outdated method to calculate their data using living standards back from 2005. You can even see that china is soon to overtake the US economy in PPP and variety of media agrees they dont try to challenge it by referring to IMF because they know the truth.

What Iryna Harpy is saying is also wrong, i did also use WB data for other countries articles. I did so with Cuba replacing CIA data which is IMF data anyways (except for cuba and otehr countries the IMF isnt covering), with WB data. Now is it like i am some robot and can change all article for every country? of course not. Also i dont like the IMF data because they openly make estimates, people constantly confuse what is estimates with and what is final as i have shown above in the link. World Bank will never make any GDP estimations, the recent GDP numbers are always only completed if the year is already over, this is how it should be made. Having estimates results in debates constantly in what should be used and what not, as you can see in the Russia article--Crossswords (talk) 10:10, 20 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Summary of dispute by Sergecross73

I have no stance in this dispute. I've only been involved because a different editor requested administrative help with dealing a difficult IP (who has now created an account as "Gladios". ) All I have to add is that Gladios, as an IP, has constantly assumed bad faith of others, makes disruptive comments, and doesn't understand the concept of vandalism, or many other basic English phrases. That being said, I suppose he could be right too. Sergecross73 msg me 20:09, 19 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Summary of dispute by Gladio4772

WB data aren't the standard used for ALL nations in Wikipedia english.IMF data 2014 are the only one standard used in nations articles.(See USA ,UK and so on...).WB data referred to 2013 are still under revision so not definitive.Same for IMF.So World Bank data 2013 are estimates (they must be revised again-ISTAT for istance for Italy like all statistic centres for other states has to revise the italian nominal gdp of 2013,so how is it possible ranking Italy and Russia in a definitive way?) like IMF April data 2014.Many times are deeply revised and revised again also after the first publication (generally in Spring of the following year) when the year is over because of the accounting changes or other causes and this changes a lot numbers.IMF data and World Bank data referred to the nominal GDP are very very similar because the counting is mostly the same.So no chances to criticize IMF about it. In Wikipedia english the standard is using english and not other languages,so it's for nominal GDPS.Wikipedia has its own standards to follow and these are IMF April data 2014.We have definitive (these are the "true" final data ,and not the ones published in Spring the following year) data only referred to 2012 for nominal gpds and in 2012 Italy was same 8th while Russia 9th.In Italy article there's even a mistake about it (there's written that Italy was 9th as nominal gdp in 2012:WRONG ,it was 8th; i corrected it only Wikipedia italian Italy article).A lot of mistakes about gdps derive from dated writings or ignorance or other.

I suggested in the Talk to correct 2 big mistakes referred to Russia nominal gdp ranking in Russia article presentation and in the part close to the nominal gdp value (2092).The standard for ALL nations data and rankings are based on IMF data 2014,why Russia not?Why this exclusive situation?I've posted the official IMF organization site in the Russia Talk (if you need i can post it here again) List of countries by past and future GDP (nominal).Checking Italy article you can see that Italy is 8th by nominal gdp with 2,171 trillions and Russia is ranked same with only 2,092 trillions.There's the evidence of the 2 mistakes in Russia article because the 2 countries with different nominal gdps can't be at the same time 8th.Italy is the real 8th and Russia is 9th.Some people wrote me about GDP PPP,but i never cited it and i don't care of it.Lost time talking about it.CROSSWORDS uses GDP ppp just to say that IMF is worse than World Bank and people must use World Bank data.IMF have its own institutes (that in many cases are better than the World Bank ones) that neither WB owns so avoid to attack even international organizations.Other people realized the mistakes like IP 129....,but he justified without any official number the mistakes He wrote "c'mon.." just to say "let it go even if it doesn't respect IMF official data".Irina Harpy supports me in this and has realized the problem.She answers to 129.... in few words that my position is right.Honestly i'm not able to realize Taivo position.Nobody really succeded in showing i'm wrong.Sometimes i didn't realize english of other people (but i realize english of many other people in different places ;my neighbour is from Doncaster (UK,EU) and i talk with him very well).I don't like to write negative things on other people,i reacted only if i was attacked or i saw partial actions or i felt offended or bad feith.I can just say that Russia article reported Russia ranking by nominal gdp 9th less than 3 months ago and somebody changed it unlocking and posting 8th.It's impossible to see in the Talk the discussion about this change that appear like a phantom acting.TO CROSSWORDS : also 2013 data IMF about all nations aren't definitive and same thing for World Bank (so 2013 data of World Bank that is over as you like aren't definitive and so they are just estimates too ).Do you want to say that IMF isn't a good source about nominal GDPS?Explain this to economic world and Wikipedia administrators and editors.In 2012 Russia seemed to have overtaken Italy according to IMF but after the last revision Italy in 2012 was still 8th.So 2013 data aren't still definitive but just estimates like the 2014 ones.Wikipedia standards are based only on 2014 IMF data for all nations.CROSSWORDS expressed just personal opinions against Wikipedia lines and above all based on wrong points.I don't like to show useless posts to make impression to other people like him.I know them and they are useless to solve these 2 mistakes.He has NOTHING on his hands.Wikipedia official lines (and mine too) are totally different about nominal gdps.I'm costantly in contact with ISTAT,OECD and IMF and i can make also cite you their names.I repeat about official numbers of IMF there's a very very small place for arguing or fantasy.It's impossible to deny my STATEMENTS based on official IMF data April 2014.If you need more informations ask me.I beg your pardon if i used a wrong form in presenting it.Have a good day and thanks.PS @ CROSSWORDS:try GDP ppp with the 2013 exchange rates (why 2011 exchange rates and not 2005 or 2013?) ,they changed a lot for Russia and other states,in fact ruble fell like many other weak currencies.Above all DISPUTE started because of WRONG data of nominal gdp ranking posted on Russia article unlocked in a not right way .NUMBERS ARE NUMBERS,NOT OPINIONS.Gladio4772 (talk) 07:57, 20 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Summary of dispute by Taivo

User:Gladio4772 (under the guise of an anonymous IP) has been pushing the position that Russia's GDP ranking is incorrectly stated in the infobox at Russia. He originally pushed the notion that he would refuse to accept the IMF's ranking because he seems to fervently oppose anything having to do with the IMF. When we explained that we use the IMF ranking in all the Wikipedia infoboxes for consistency, he continued to push the anti-IMF rhetoric. His arguments have not moved beyond that and have included personal attacks. It's always hard to understand much of what he writes because his English skills aren't developed enough to clearly talk about the topic at hand. When he wrote "strong weakness", I called it an oxymoron, but he thought it was a personal attack. He seems to be very entrenched in his anti-IMF opinion. --Taivo (talk) 02:10, 20 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Talk:Russia#MISTAKE IN RANKING NOMINAL GDP.It's 9th! discussion

If anyone is still following this DRN which - inevitably and wisely - no volunteers picked up on, I think I've worked out what the problem is (despite the WP:WALLOFTEXT and personal attacks, and with no thanks to them).

There are two issues:

• Whether the IMF is a reliable source for use in the fiscal sections of country infoboxes, or whether the World Bank figures should be used. As all of the articles for countries use IMF figures, for the sake of parity this is an issue which should be taken to a Reliable Sources noticeboard for discussion. It isn't an issue for local consensus per each article on a nation-state (as I suggested above).
• IMF stats being used on every individual article (such as Italy and Russia) do not include their numerical status in the global economy. These can only be compared and ranked if every country listed at the IMF is downloaded and sorted for the nominal GDP, GDP PPP, etc. and are available on the List of countries by GDP (PPP) article, the List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita, the List of countries by GDP (nominal) article, and the List of countries by GDP (nominal) per capita article. Those articles are not being maintained, and the latest tables stop at 2013. Unless someone is willing to update those pages, we really don't have any method of establishing the ranking.

--Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:57, 22 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In IMF April report every country has its data.So or we rank every country by these data or we delete all rankings in all states ( i don't think in Wikipedia the majority of administrators and editors would agree with it).The ranking in all lists that Iryna Harpy cites rankings are given not by IMF or WB but by editors.All states ranking were well set by administrators for every country but in Russia article were changed without any discussion in Talk (vandalism).So should we delete all rankings in all states articles for Russia article vandalism?All states can be ranked by their value of gdp and IMF owns THE NEWEST ESTIMATED ON 2014 (WB HAS ESTIMATED only on 2013- I ALREADY EXPLAINED WHY WB DATA 2013 ARE ESTIMATES TOO) compared to WB.In this case Italy with 2,171 trillions $ is 8th and Russia with 2,092 trillions is 9th.IMF is a statistic and scientific organization.Who can deny it ?Before somebody must to show that IMF isn't so (really an impossible thing).So people must stop with relativism (that helps dubious acting and vandalism) and disruptive things.You must report sources that IMF data (and so rankings based on them ) aren't reliable,official and scientific.Otherwise you are talking of nothing. These are matters ONLY for people that really know this sector otherwise for people like me that studied economy is becoming really boring and disturbingI explained and explained ...but we can't last to say the same things for an everlasting time.Russian vandalic act about nominal gdp ranking (cited twice in the article presentaion) is in a cul de sac.Have all a good day. Gladio4772 (talk) 04:45, 22 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It's not that easy, unfortunately. If you look at Template:Infobox_country, rank is one of the parameters written into the template. It doesn't have to be used, but it does get used. Checking on the veracity is the difficult part, especially as intentional POV pushers and vandals make changes which can (and obviously have been) easily be overlooked due to high traffic editing. If there's no centralised record for the year, there's no way of confirming that it's been changed, or was verifiable in the first place.

This isn't really the forum to discuss it. If anyone could suggest where it would be best brought up for discussion, it would be appreciated. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:14, 22 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No,at all.You must before show that IMF data 2014 are wrong and that countries can't be ranked on them.Russia has a ranking that doesn't own I derives by a wrong vandalic act may be done in good feith.Russia is 9th.Now Russia is an isolated article compared to the other nations articles.It must be corrected.No other chance.Gladio4772 (talk) 05:18, 22 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Gladio4772, I have not been arguing for using anything outside of IMF figures being used. Please read comments carefully before you make assumptions about what is being argued for and against. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:28, 22 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Do you understand english? IMF has the last (2014) estimates for all countries and WB not.All countries can be ranked on these ones like they are listed in the articles you cited and Wikipedia administrators and editors did it for every nation according to 2014 IMF data.Only Russia article was vandalized about ranking of nominal gdp.To do no correct Russia article about ranking of nominal gdp before somebody has to show that IMF isn't officially a scientific and statistic world organization.all other writings are otherwise trollying.Now you are trollying.Bye.Gladio4772 (talk) 05:34, 22 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

– New discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Mi corazón_es_tuyo 

Users involved

• Musicfan877 (talk · contribs)
• Damián80 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Hello editors,

I am having some issues editing the summary for the English page for Mi corazón es tuyo. because a user keeps reverting my edits. Their version is a poorly translated plot of the show from Spanish to English (that looks like it was put through an online translator because the subjects and verb tenses are all wrong.). My edit is a paraphrased 2-5 sentence summary of the plot without any grammatical errors, and correctly translated from Spanish to English. I am trying to make this summary short and sweet for readers. What can be done to solve this? A bad, lengthy translation from the show's official website isn't sufficient for a brief summary.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I used their Talk page and made some comprised by added a little more information to the summary section.

How do you think we can help?

The article needs to be scanned and fixed for grammatical errors. I hope both of us can be satisfied with a summary written in correct English that gives about a paragraph's worth of information about the plot. It's a summary and it doesn't need more than a few sentences to explain the plot. Since the user knows Spanish, maybe they can write the Spanish summary for the corresponding page.

Summary of dispute by Damián80

Talk:Mi coraz%C3%B3n_es_tuyo discussion