Woody Allen sexual assault allegations

Woody Allen sexual assault allegations (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Delete - Virtually the entirety of this simply repeats what's found at Woody Allen — a verbatim copy-paste. The material is certainly important in the context of his life, yet since anyone can allege anything, and no proof of any sexual assault or harassment, let alone criminal charges, has ever been documented despite multiple proceedings and trial-by-public, this entire article outside of its context is hugely WP:UNDUE and seems to exist only to "shame" the subject. Tenebrae (talk) 01:31, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• This article was created 2 days ago. I think this is eligible for WP:A10. LaundryPizza03 (talk) 01:40, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Keep per WP:ARTICLESIZE. The section about this in the parent article at Woody Allen is too long and it became necessary to split it into this subarticle. Dylan Farrow's allegations against Allen are obviously of lasting significance and have garnered a huge amount of news coverage especially since she has written about the alleged incident and multiple actors and actresses have expressed regret for participating in his films because of it.--The lorax (talk) 02:19, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. The allegations have gained enduring coverage, and several actors have said recently that they regret having worked with him. After Weinstein, #MeToo and Time's Up, the coverage is likely to continue. A well-written article based only on high-quality sources would be beneficial, and it would allow us to cover the allegations summary-style in the BLP so that they overwhelm it less. SarahSV ^(talk) 02:40, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per WP:UNDUE, as the only reason this controversy continues to be in the news is its continued use as publicity. Additionally, there is still zero valid controversy regarding his 20 year marriage to Soon Yi beyond the affect she had on Mia and Woody's relationship. If this article is kept, will we be seeing articles of this type for all notable humans who have been merely accused of a crime? --| Uncle Milty | talk | 04:24, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete A section on Woody Allen's article has always been sufficient. This 25 year old story never had the political ramification that the Harvey Weinstein sexual abuse allegations or Jimmy Savile sexual abuse scandal did. See the similar AfD regarding Matt Lauer, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Matt Lauer sexual misconduct allegations, which closed as merge.LM2000 (talk) 05:18, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Do we really need a new article about one allegation by one person? Not to mention it's decades-old and thrown out of court. Is there new evidence that should be made aware of? Or is it merely gossip mongering? Gene2010 (talk) 07:02, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep per SlimVirgin. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 07:04, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - Weinstein, #MeToo and Time's Up: these are all notable subjects but we aren't discussing them. Just because we can arguably throw this into the pot doesn't mean it is notable. Having a seperate article on allegations and gossip that never had the same ramifications as, say Weinstein, is WP:UNDUE, especially when the main article can easily detail the allegations.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 10:35, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Extensive in-depth coverage in reliable sources. Billhpike (talk) 03:58, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - it's been a significant topic for decades. If it's a copy-paste split, then fix it by removing the copied text from the main article and giving attribution on the split. ‡ Єl Cid of ᐺalencia ^ᐐT₳LKᐬ 04:12, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure it's good policy to reward someone for refusing to follow split-discussion protocol. --Tenebrae (talk) 16:34, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:50, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:50, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:50, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Connecticut-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:50, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. SarahSV ^(talk) 03:29, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete as an unneeded content fork; The content should be / is covered in the main article already. Copy/paste is not an appropriate WP:SPLIT process. K.e.coffman (talk) 07:03, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - per the fact of extensive references which are in-depth. Per coverage which has been consistent for decades..Article meets WP:GNG. Many of the Delete !votes above are based on WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS per Weinstein comments and WP:IDONTLIKEIT which are irrelevant.BabbaQ (talk) 07:30, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Saying that editors should follow split-discussion protocol is not IDONTLIKEIT. Also, no one is questioning the validity of the content, only that it completely duplicates part of an already existing article. --Tenebrae (talk) 16:04, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. All of the content is already in Woody Allen as it is, and I've seen no convincing reason here why it would need its own separate article as a standalone topic. Keep arguments based on notability and sourcing are missing the point, because nobody's suggested that notability or sourcing are absent — the point is that Wikipedia policy also requires us to pay some mind to what's the best context to present content in, such as the question of whether the topic needs its own standalone article or is better handled as a subsection of another related article that already exists, and I have yet to see anybody in this discussion present a compelling reason why this needs its own independent spinoff article rather than being addressed in Allen's existing BLP. Bearcat (talk) 19:41, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Bearcat, the issue is extremely complex, and only part of it has been explained in the Allen BLP. I don't want to list the things not mentioned because they would have to be written carefully and in context. The section can't be lengthened because it is arguably already too long for a biography. Another issue is that there are three principal figures: Woody Allen, Mia Farrow and Dylan Farrow, all living people. In the Allen BLP, there is an effort (rightly) to make sure the text is BLP-compliant as it relates to him, but there is no corresponding effort (in that bio) to do the same for the women. Moving the issue to a stand-alone article solves both problems. We will be able to explain what happened clearly without having to worry about overwhelming other sections, and it will become more obvious that there are multiple, competing BLP interests.
  Another two points are worth noting. First, Vox recently called this "one of the most visible and acrimonious scandals of the early 1990s". [1] (That article is a good summary of the key issues.) Had Wikipedia existed then, we would have had a stand-alone article rather than splitting it between BLPs. Second, the sub-section in Allen is likely to keep getting longer because people are discussing it again; since December 2017 five actors have apologized for having worked with him. None of that can be explained properly within the BLP. For example, for length reasons, we can't discuss actors who have spoken positively or actors who have been discussed but won't comment. We can't discuss the rewards ceremonies that were marked by online protests from two of the principals and another family member. None of it can be mentioned because it would overwhelm the biography. When you find that happening in an article, and where the sources are high quality, it indicates that a split is needed. SarahSV ^(talk) 00:31, 14 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is all fine, but it's the discussion that the editor who created this page was supposed to have initited before he unilaterally took it upon himself to decide for the rest of the community.

The honorable thing for that editor to do would be to agree to the deleting of the article and then do a WP:SPLIT discussion the way every other responsible editor would have done it. If we're going to circumvent the established protocol — which was designed to prevent contentious duplications just like this — then why have a SPLIT process at all? --Tenebrae (talk) 01:27, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If this is kept, I was thinking we could move it to Allen–Farrow family dispute or Allen–Farrow custody dispute. SarahSV ^(talk) 04:50, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - I'm not going to !vote here (though I think, in general, that there is little need to spinout such an article) - however if this goes, then Delete !voters here should nominate Harvey Weinstein sexual abuse allegations and Roy Moore sexual misconduct allegations - as opposed to Weinstein & Moore, allegations around Allen have been covered in-depth for over 20 years - it didn't go away. I'm not sure we'll be talking about Weinstein in 10 years and I'm pretty sure that (assuming he won't be running again for office (fairly safe just on his age)) that we won't be talking about Moore much.Icewhiz (talk) 09:21, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Actually I can see the Moore issue being a big one in the 2020 election. Orrin Hatch's decision to not run for reelection may have in part been brought about because his unwillingness to totally distance himself from Moore outraged the Utah electorate's total non-acceptance of Moore. I can see both potential primary opponents and general election opponents of Trump playing the Moore card in 2020. I can see Trump himself trying to emphasize that he did not support Moore before the primary election. The allegations against Allen have just never become so broadly covered in the media as those against Weinstein and Moore. On the other hand, I see lots of good arguments to keep this article.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:20, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep The issue here is that this is a specific accusation that turned into a long, drawn out case. There is just too much relevant detail here to adequately cover in a biological article.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:26, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep as a proper WP:SPINOUT from the biographical article. The RS coverage of these issues has been voluminous and WP:SUSTAINED. Including this much information at Woody Allen would be WP:UNDUE. Note that if this is kept, the summary at Woody_Allen#Sexual-assault_allegations should be trimmed per WP:SUMMARY. 24.151.116.12 (talk) 17:54, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - this isn't a POVFORK, since the info is already there. I agree with 24.151.116.12 that the original info should be culled, and with SlimVirgin that the section of the Woody Allen article would get too long without this WP:SPINOUT. TimTempleton ^{(talk) (cont)} 05:30, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment Whether it is a reasonable split or not, I have to agree that it had to be discussed on the main article's talk page first. Excelse (talk) 09:22, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]