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Added 21:30 UTC: So I have reviewed Jytdog's block log. It appears he has been banned permanently on two separate instances for similar behaviors, only to be unbanned after appealing to the Arb Committee. I can't see into the committee's deliberations myself, but if I've ever heard of a case of misplaced aggression/transferrance this appears to follow it to a textbook. In my entire history with WP I have never had any interaction with Admins or disciplinary groups, until Jytdog. [[User:Sahrin|Sahrin]] ([[User talk:Sahrin|talk]]) 21:32, 2 September 2016 (UTC) |
Added 21:30 UTC: So I have reviewed Jytdog's block log. It appears he has been banned permanently on two separate instances for similar behaviors, only to be unbanned after appealing to the Arb Committee. I can't see into the committee's deliberations myself, but if I've ever heard of a case of misplaced aggression/transferrance this appears to follow it to a textbook. In my entire history with WP I have never had any interaction with Admins or disciplinary groups, until Jytdog. [[User:Sahrin|Sahrin]] ([[User talk:Sahrin|talk]]) 21:32, 2 September 2016 (UTC) |
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Added 2016-19-05 1746 UTC: Comment on the admin's page *was not about this issue.* This was stated several times and for the record above. Comments regarding neutrality of other editors were made only after my neutrality was questioned, and repeated reverts were made without substantiation for the revert. As I noted, I became frustrated and committed the 3RR. I have already backed away from the dispute; I made a further comment on the talk page which failed to achieve consensus and have not said anything further on the topic. The evidence for "whitewashing" is readily available - there were repeated attempts to remove factually true information from an article to present a particular viewpoint (that there was no controversy), I must admit I find it frustrating that the admins in question have not seen this in the record; if agreeing to remove myself from the situation is what causes this to blow over then I'm totally down with it. As far as de-escalating, I will not have anything further to do with the topic or certainly the editor in question. I have received messages from several other editors criticizing the neutrality/behavior of the editor in question in the past, and need no further convincing that he is not someone I want to be involved with. [[User:Sahrin|Sahrin]] ([[User talk:Sahrin|talk]]) 21:51, 5 September 2016 (UTC) |
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====Statement by OID==== |
====Statement by OID==== |
Revision as of 22:05, 5 September 2016
D.Creish
D.Creish (talk · contribs) is warned against edit warring. No other action taken. Lord Roem ~ (talk) 04:13, 30 August 2016 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning D.Creish
Edit warring and "crying BLP" on Jared Taylor. Repeated removing sourced material that has been present and relatively unaltered for over one year (compare diff from 15 July 2015 until 24 August 2016 regarding material in second paragraph of lead [1]). Repeated claims of BLP violation where none exist and insistence on gaining consensus, despite clearly editing against long-standing consensus (WP:STATUSQUO). User has reverted edits by Volunteer Marek and myself. All diff below related to this:
None.
Should mention I chose to come here instead of AN3 because of (1) the political nature of the article and its contents, (2) extended discussion of DS on the user's talk page earlier today related to another matter (User_talk:D.Creish#Note_on_DS), (3) participation in past AE filings related to the ARBAPDS, and (4) threats by user to file AE against Volunteer Marek ([2]). BLP DS also apply here, but APDS seem more directly related. EvergreenFir (talk) 06:10, 26 August 2016 (UTC) User also promised to continue removing the content: [3]. EvergreenFir (talk) 06:13, 26 August 2016 (UTC) @Rhoark: The issues is the user was gaming by claiming BLP. The wordpress source needed to go (and did). The NYTimes piece didn't support it well, so it was replaced. The other sources supported the statement well though, so there was no reason to remove the entire thing. Moreover, the user kept removing content despite replacing lower quality sources with better ones. They wanted the statement gone, not to improve it so they claimed BLP and edit warred over it. EvergreenFir (talk) 23:49, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
Discussion concerning D.CreishStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by D.CreishThis is the text I removed inititally and in subsequent reversions:
The sources cited were (3) as follows:
When the filer refers to content that was "relatively unaltered for over one year" and WP:STATUSQUO these are the sources it was based upon, which I find (as I assume most will) insufficient. To keep this short: my intent was to remove the content until suitable sourcing could be found. To that end I began a dialogue on the talk page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Jared_Taylor#BLP_violations_in_lede Rather than participating in that dialogue both editors reverted my removal, at times providing additional sources - none of which I've examined so far support the initial text. I was under the impression that to claim someone "promotes racist ideologies" required strong sourcing and that, if it was not present, additional sourcing and dialogue must precede restoration. If that is not the case, I apologize unequivocally; if it is, I'm owed an apology but I'll settle for a critical discussion of sources and claims on the article's talk page. D.Creish (talk) 06:35, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
I feel like I've stirred a hornets' nest. I expected editors to observe a higher degree of civility in articles under Discretionary Sanctions but I'm finding just the opposite. D.Creish (talk) 08:07, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
I'm not going to clutter this section with a tit-for-tat - I want to make position clear and then I likely won't respond except to address direct questions: It is not that I believe Taylor is not a racist or does not (in my personal view) promote racist ideologies. But review the sources here, especially the high-quality ones - they all use precise language to describe his views. I want our article, especially the lede, to mirror that precise language. The existing sources did not support the reverted phrasing; despite this, several editors insisted on restoring the phrasing and sourcing when even a cursory examination would have shown one of the sources was a non-existent page and another didn't directly address the claim. Rather than participate in a search for improved sources, tangential sources were added scattershot and in questioning their relevance I was met with reversions rather than discussion. That's a violation of the process and intent of the BLP policy as I understand it. D.Creish (talk) 18:46, 26 August 2016 (UTC) Question from NomoskedasticityIs this sort of thing intended under the DS system? It looks an awful lot like silly games to me, given the context of the report under discussion here. (Just to be clear: What I'm asking about is the fact that D.Creish placed a DS notice on my talk-page, even though I've never done a single edit to the article in question here.) Nomoskedasticity (talk) 07:56, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Volunteer MarekD.Creish has made six (!) reverts in less than 24 hrs. So there's that. There's no BLP grounds for edit warring here either, as others have pointed out simply because this is actually what the subject is known for. It's sort of like trying to remove the fact that David Duke is a former KKK Grand Wizard from that article on BLP grounds. Which is also why the info is actually well sourced. Now, I can see objecting to the mediamouse source, but there were two other, reliable sources (NY Times and SPLC, which is NOT "primary") there. And indeed, I removed the mediamouse source myself [4] and added additional reliable sources [5] [6]. That didn't stop D.Creish who continued to edit war, reverting other editors another four times. And yes, this content has been in the article a long time, it's been discussed on the talk page (though D.Creish did not bother participating in any of the discussions), etc. etc. As Evergreen and others point out, in addition to WP:TENDENTIOUS edit warring, this also appears to be a bad-faithed attempt to WP:GAME both the BLP policy and discretionary sanctions.Volunteer Marek (talk) 13:23, 26 August 2016 (UTC) For reference, Jared Taylor is associated with or in charge of the New Century Foundation, a white supremacist group, National Policy Institute a "white nationalist" (whatever that is) "think tank", the The Occidental Quarterly a "a far-right racially obsessed US Magazine", and American Renaissance (magazine) a a white supremacist publication. So yeah, saying that some sources have said that this guy is associated with racist organizations and publications is NOT a BLP violation by any stretch. Again, it's pretty much THE reason he is notable enough to have a Wikipedia article.Volunteer Marek (talk) 13:23, 26 August 2016 (UTC) Btw, this has been a recurring problem, mostly from anonymous IPs and drive by editors, for many years now.Volunteer Marek (talk) 13:23, 26 August 2016 (UTC) @Kingsindian. First, this isn't about "calling someone a racist" (although that can easily be sourced too). The actual text is that he is associated with organizations which promote racism. And for that the NY Times and the SPLC were fine, unless you really are trying to misread what the sources say. Also, this is a summary of the article present in lede. The actual sourcing needs to be in the body of the article itself. Which it is. Anyway, I don't know if this is sufficient for a topic ban (from American Politics, or Race & Intelligence, because this article probably falls under both?). A "probation" for sure though.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:39, 28 August 2016 (UTC) Statement by MrXReverts like this one with an edit summary "Sources included do not describe Taylor as supporting racist ideologies. Removed on good-faith BLP ground." are indeed WP:CRYBLP and WP:GAMING. Sources, including the SPLC, plainly verify the disputed sentence "Taylor, and many of the organizations he is associated with, are often described as promoting racist ideologies by, among others, civil rights groups, news media and academics studying racism in the US." The New York Times says "Jared Taylor, editor of American Renaissance, based in Louisville, who argues that blacks and other minorities are, because of genetics, less intelligent than whites and that non-whites are bent on destroying America culturally and politically.". The SPLC elaborates, for example saying "Founded by Jared Taylor in 1990, the New Century Foundation is a self-styled think tank that promotes pseudo-scientific studies and research that purport to show the inferiority of blacks to whites.". Salon (a weaker source) just says "Taylor has ties to a variety of domestic and international racists and extremists." Three experienced editors support the content in question. D.Creish edit warred claiming WP:3RRBLP, which does not apply. I have no idea if this is a pattern of behavior from D.Creish, but in this case, it seems to be a sanctionable offense.- MrX 14:00, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
Statement by RhoarkThis filing is bad and everyone should feel bad. If a claim about a living person fails WP:V it's a BLP violation. One source was unreliable, NYTimes did not support the claim, and site-wide consensus about SPLC has not been reached. It should be no problem to say SPLC says this and that about him, but if there's a reasonable doubt its reliable for summarizing what third parties think about Taylor, people should try to establish that consensus rather than edit warring. On the technicalities, D.Criesh is entirely justified in reverting an unlimited number of times. On the content, though - what the fuck? In the New York Times it says he
Statement by KingsindianI am rather puzzled by Lord Roem's comment. Let me make a simple but fundamental point. Something can be true without there being adequate verification and proof of something being true. Please read the discussion here about the issue. There were three original sources: one a wordpress blog, one an NYT source which doesn't support the reference and one the SPLC. Only the last is a half-decent source and it should not have been presented in Wikipedia's voice in the beginning. This is as straightforward a BLP violation as I can find. Calling someone a racist requires much stronger sourcing than this. I'll note that several sources in the article still don't make claims about Taylor, but rather about the alt-right, of which Taylor is a part. In fact, the Fox news source is simply quoting "critics" who say that Taylor is a racist, with Taylor denying it. There's enough sourcing about Taylor's views on race to write something correctly summarizing the situation, which will probably not be too far from the current phrasing but better phrased and sourced - this should be discussed on the talkpage and not edit-warred. I second Rhoark's point. Everyone should feel bad about their conduct here. D. Creish is playing the well-justified role of the Devil's Advocate here and whatever their motivations should be thanked for correcting a massive BLP violation. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 15:05, 28 August 2016 (UTC) Statement by MasemRhoark's comments sum up the situation, but this is reflective of what I've seen a lot of late based on AN/ANI posts or the like, in topics that are left-vs-right political aspects, with knowledge that the bulk of the press is generally left-learning, that editors will readily hang lots of negative statements about a right-leaning topic because the mainstream sources seem to give that impression. WP must be much more conservative (middle of the ground, not in the political sense) and not assign judgement or give that impression. Loading up a statement like that in the lede of a BLP, while technically supported by some sources and thus meeting V and NOR and avoids an outright BLP violation, is a failure of NPOV as it establishes a specific tone that immediately makes the article read negatively about this person. The first line even of the current article "Samuel Jared Taylor (born September 15, 1951) is an American white nationalist who is the founder and editor of American Renaissance, an online magazine often described as a white supremacist publication." is a huge COATRACK if the magazine or Taylor doesn't self-state being about white supremacy (which I don't immediately see evidence of). This is becoming way too common in any politically-charged topic and thus challenging coatrack statements in BLP should be a valid action. --MASEM (t) 16:18, 28 August 2016 (UTC) Statement by Mr ErnieI don't think we should get in the habit of sanctioning good faith edits by users in good standing. This filing seems premature and references one specific issue without any history of other issues. A warning reinforcing the correct collaborative approach would suffice. I'm curious why there was no attempt to solve this first on a user talk page. Mr Ernie (talk) 21:50, 29 August 2016 (UTC) Statement by CapeoSeeing this back and forth made me go check out this guys writings and his associated organizations and now I feel like I need a shower. Saying he pushes a racist ideology is putting it lightly. That said I don't think any of the editors involved at the page disagree but the sourcing was bad and it seems like it's improved a bit. It could still probably get better and rather than sanction anyone I'd think the involved parties could accomplish that. We have a bunch of decent editors that got heated. I see no benefit from blocking anybody. Capeo (talk) 23:05, 29 August 2016 (UTC) Statement by Steve QuinnOn Talk:Murder of Seth Rich it was made clear by a group of productive editors that inclusion of Wikileaks related content is in contradiction to BLP, BDP, and AVOIDVICTIM. This was amplified by User:Mascell, an Admin [7]. I have sent a couple of emails to Lord Roem denoting with diffs, what appears to be (to me), D.Criesh's continual failure to get the point WP:IDHT. Below is information not contained in those emails: Here, I summed up repeatedly having explained BLP violations, along with other productive editors [8]. After similar statement by User:Marek, D. Creish conflates issues (already noted in the emails) and then he raises three strawman arguments [9] - the RFC, WP:DRN, and impasse have nothing to do with the points Marek and I just made. And, it is not clear to whom he is speaking (maybe thin air). Then is the circular statement about "majority" and "numbers" and appears to also not be relevant. But note, within the entire response he twice defers to support by a number of other editors Jytdog asks D. Criesh to say he understands Mastcell's announcement [10] Here D.Creish equivocates about that [11] and equivocates to me about conflating and understanding the issues (bttom of diff). After discussion about PROFRINGE, DUE WIEGHT, and NOTNEWS with another editor (see above in next diff) D. Creish firmly disputes policies against insertion of Wikileaks material [12], and is discussing how WP policies might support insinuations (which they don't). At the BLP Noticeboard [13] he claims "No one has offered a succinct, rational explanation" per BLP, of adding to the article "WikiLeaks offered a $20,000 reward for information leading to a conviction". Which at this point, appears to be both contentious and failure to get the point. Steve Quinn (talk) 03:13, 30 August 2016 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning D.Creish
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75.140.253.89
User blocked 72 hours |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning 75.140.253.89
The anonymous editor in question is using the talk page of the biography of Shaun King to repeat entirely-unsupported and virulently racist claims about the article subject - that he is lying about their racial heritage because they claim the subject is "phenotypically Caucasoid" (whatever that is supposed to mean.)
This editor is, quite simply, a racist conspiracy theorist, and should not be permitted to edit this person's biography. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 15:40, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
Discussion concerning 75.140.253.89Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by 75.140.253.89
I have never once insinuated that Shaun King has willfully misrepresented his own racial identity. It is clear that his own very tangled family history is very confusing (as Shaun King has proclaimed in interviews), and his mother told him that his current father is not his real biological father. King has never met or even seen his father (as admitted in interviews). King, based on his own admission, cannot be sure of anything about his father without a paternity test. King cannot be certain about his heritage or racial identity, black or white, or even asian. King exhibits no physical traits typical of an African American male. King exhibits physical traits solely that of a Caucasian male. The claim is that King is an African American male, despite his outward appearance. This is an extraordinary claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The "reliable sources" are lifestyle and fashion magazines that cite mere hearsay. This does not satisfy the need for extraordinary evidence. Comparable case: Elizabeth_Warren, who has consistently claimed to be Native American. Her case for claiming her heritage was that she and her maternal lineage have "high cheekbones...just like the Indians do". [14] [15] Like King's case, it is a murky claim not based on any genetic or genealogical investigation. Yet unlike King, her racial identity is not listed as fact on her article. I am interested in accuracy. I believe that it is better to lack a potentially true statement than to include a possibly untrue statement. Removing an extraordinary claim until better evidence surfaces is not an unreasonable request.75.140.253.89 (talk) 17:40, 26 August 2016 (UTC) In short summary, complainant tried to preemptively block a change by misusing closure and even by filing this request before the WP:CONSENSUS process could even be properly attempted. This reflects poorly both on the complainants objectivity in this request and in maintaining of the associated article. -75.140.253.89 (talk) 03:38, 28 August 2016 (UTC) Statement by SPACKlickThis filing was probably premature. u:NorthBySouthBaranof hadn't tried simple discussion in this case. That being said, anonymous user has shown reluctance to operate within WP Policies. They are not however being overly disruptive as their activity has been limited to talk page discussion. SPACKlick (talk) 04:01, 28 August 2016 (UTC) Statement by SteviethemanI fully concur with the complainant NorthBySouthBaranof. There was enough discussion to determine that 75.140.253.89 was attempting to use a Wikipedia article and/or its talk page for maligning the subject (insinuating the subject is a liar, requiring original research to prove something that we only rely upon reliable sources to back up, and therefore that discussion should have been closed (at least). There was no reasonable continuance of such discussion. If 75.140.253.89 had conducted a discussion based in Wikipedia policies/guidelines without seeming to malign the subject, that would have been a different ball of wax. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 18:47, 28 August 2016 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning 75.140.253.89
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by No More Mr Nice Guy
Consensus is to grant the appeal. The restriction is lifted effective immediately. Seraphimblade Talk to me 16:11, 3 September 2016 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by No More Mr Nice GuyIt has been 3 years and this sanction was imposed for a one time incident on my otherwise completely clean record. It is not serving any preventative purpose per WP:BLOCKPREVENTATIVE at this point so can only be punitive. @The Wordsmith: I didn't have any particular participation in mind, to be honest. It's just that not only is this the only blot on my record, which I would like removed, I also got a little tired of people trying to use it against me, like here. It's been 3 years, this sanction can't possibly be serving a preventative purpose, if it even did to begin with. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:43, 1 September 2016 (UTC) @Zscarpia: Thank you for illustrating the chilling effect this sanction has had on editors' willingness to complain about certain types of harassment. I didn't connect the two until now. Statement by SandsteinPlease refer to my comments on my talk page linked to above. I haven't followed AE for some time now and leave it to more active admins to determine whether any grounds for granting this appeal exist. I haven't seen any so far. Sandstein 05:38, 1 September 2016 (UTC) Statement by KingsindianSurely a sanction imposed three years ago ought to be removed without any requirement to grovel. Compare WP:SO. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 12:32, 1 September 2016 (UTC) Statement by NomoskedasticityPerhaps there's no need to grovel, but given the nature of the contribution(s) for which NMMNG's AE ban was imposed, it might help to know what sort of recent discussions NMMNG would have wanted to contribute to if he had been able. I'm not sure AE discussions are suffering from lack of input from highly-partisan editors, and it might well be worth looking for evidence that the nature of the proposed contributions would in fact be different from what we saw. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 14:23, 1 September 2016 (UTC) Statement by Sir JosephI think this appeal should be granted. A 3 year ban from AE for a very weak reason is enough time served in my opinion. Looking at past AE actions, I can see many actions that should not have been brought and not sure why this one warranted a block. Regardless, even if it were 100% warranted and NMMNG was a horrible rotten person, it's been three years and it's time to give him a break. Sir Joseph (talk) 19:33, 1 September 2016 (UTC) Statement by NishidaniI would have preferred not to comment, but Four Deuces below more or less espouses NMMGG's endlessly repeated thesis that I am a Jew baiter. That has been exhaustively reviewed, and dismissed, and protesting the decision is not material to NMMGG's request, which I have no problem in endorsing. Modern legal process, since Cesare Beccaria has rightly buried the religious idea that punishment is eternal, and even permabans, as in my case, can be revoked. I would appreciate however that The Four Deuces read my evidential reply to the nonsense jerry-rigged in the original complaint. This is no place to rehearse it, but it was so unfocused that, NMMGG could claim as evidence of my having symptoms of that pathology things like:
the cornerstone of Judaism: the idea of bechira. We believe that we are an am hanivchar, a chosen people, an am segula, a treasured people. I believe collectivist statements like this are incorrect, since it is obvious that there is no such thing as an ideologically inclusive definition of ethnicity, meaning 'Jews/Arabs/Eskimos/Americans/Russians/Chinese/Catholics/shamans all think or do this or that' are hot air, vapidly empty propositions, diagnosed as a category mistake with perduring inciveness by Gilbert Ryle in his masterpiece, The Concept of Mind. For several years, NMMGG has repeated his conviction that wiki arbitrators are tone-deaf to anti-Semitic utterances, most recently here and here, and is keen to rally back users disenchanted with the place, I don't know whether to that end or not. Precisely because sanctions, however harsh, should have a use-by expiry date if evidence exists of an ability to return and participate positively in constructing Wikipedia, and because refusal to repeal this would probably only confirm the, I believe, parlously flawed conviction arbs are intrinsically 'anti-Zionist' and complicit with anti-Semitic people (like, in his view, myself), the appeal should be accepted.Nishidani (talk) 10:32, 2 September 2016 (UTC) Statement by ZscarpiaSpeaking as an editor whom No More Mr Nice Guy seems to be currently lining up for accusations of antisemitism [17], perhaps this is what he means by his current ban serving no useful purpose. (Apologies for the slightly tongue-in-cheek nature of this comment) ← ZScarpia 13:47, 2 September 2016 (UTC) Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by No More Mr Nice GuyThe original ban does not seem to make any sense. No More Mr Nice Guy had complained about an editor for "Jew-baiting, trolling and soapboxing." In their first example, the editor referred to Jews as the "Chosen People." It was an ironic reference, since s/he was mocking the Jewish claim to Israel. He called the Jewish holiday Purim a "a double story of attempted and successful genocide." S/he makes many other allusions references to Nazi Germany when discussing Israel, thereby implying that what Israel does today is the same thing. While a comparison could be made between racial policies of Israel and Nazi Germany, they are only relevant in a talk page if there is a proposal to add them to an article. Otherwise they are merely intended to provoke other editors. I do not know if the edits were so objectionable they should have resulted in action by AE. But at least they were sufficiently inflammatory that a reasonable editor could complain about them. TFD (talk) 03:54, 2 September 2016 (UTC) Result of the appeal by No More Mr Nice Guy
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SashiRolls
SashiRolls topic banned from Jill Stein and related pages for six months. NW (Talk) 19:30, 3 September 2016 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning SashiRolls
These edits are all at Jill Stein (clearly in scope for American politics): Violation of 1RR restriction on GMO content:
Against a background of repeated slow edit warring: And POV-pushing:
Continues WP:Battleground after this AE has opened, blames everyone except self:
I leave it to the patrolling administrators to assess how much SashiRolls is self-aware about the issues here, how well TFD understands what was determined about DS for GMOs after such a very long struggle, and whether there is any truth to the silly claims that I have been disruptive at the Stein page. --Tryptofish (talk) 13:56, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
@Laser brain: Please note that I just added diffs of continued edit warring today, and weigh that in whether a warning will prove effective. Also, although I accept that, in terms of possible sanctions, AP2 is more central that GMO, please consider that GMORFC was intended to put an end to arguments, and without a clear statement now at AE, some editors will continue to argue that anything goes on pages other than the pages listed at the RfC. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:52, 2 September 2016 (UTC) A warning will be fruitless, and ANI would be a drama-fest of arguing content. Either DS mean something, or let's shut AE down. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:18, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
Discussion concerning SashiRollsStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by SashiRollsGiven Snoogannsnoogans' invective laden and patently false accusations, I will ask until Monday at 17:00 to respond completely, as Snoogannsnoogans hasn't really understood that Tryptofish may well be making a larger WP:Point, not entirely involving me, by bringing me here. Snooganssnoogans first censored me on the 13 Aug, here. Between the 11 Aug and 16 July he made 16 reverts (all of other people). His first revert on the page was the 29th of June. His reverts are of two types: to delete content that he feels support a positive image of Stein, or to do defend as the status quo content that he feels support a negative image of Stein. These are the facts concerning the user's interventions on the article. Concerning Tryptofish's assertion that the 1RR applies in the GMO section, I solicited input from the closing admins of the GMO debate who declined to comment. The Four Deuces and I both looked into his assertion and do not find it credible. Tryptofish, who is apparently somewhat famous, is clearly a very experienced Wiki-warrior given his past interactions with the Arbitration Committee. Having learned this from a google search trying to find clues as to what the "trypto" could mean, I decided to proceed cautiously, including the entire "proposition 1" of that debate in the article (3-4 lines of texts with lengthy references), because Tryptofish seemed like he wanted to create trouble in that section. He reverted this commonsense peaceful solution here. I'm also not sure why s/he wanted to include this article ("Media coverage thin for presidential candidates’ science awareness and views"), almost entirely about Clinton & Trump (with one sentence dismissing his own Weissmann reference) and pointing fingers at ScienceDebate.org to support his claim that many articles are calling Stein "contrary to science" (diff). This, in the context of a great deal of pushback concerning normal wikipedia spin-off procedures for political candidates pages (afd that he encouraged, but hasn't yet voted in (4 delete, 3 keep, currently)...) POV-pushing (ref-name change): Tryptofish's 2nd and 3rd diffs in this section do not refer to my edits (cf. the chaotic (& snarky) removal of material and vast operation of multiple reference renaming, which added confusion to the page (I was not involved in these decision to snark with significant chunks of content). In sum I changed one reference name in the first "diff", waiting for the "stray link fixed bot" to come and pick it up. I stayed on the page to see if it would. It didn't. I fixed what I had done by replacing all 16 references to the same article, introduced all in one edit by another editor here. I admit this was to make a point after having seen yet another bit of (what I consider to have been) trolling cluttering the head of a sub-section that has caused much grief and hard work in the last month with a gossipy quote that had nothing to do with anything: (diff). I figred if Tryptofish could troll with impunity I could draw attention to a serious problem: Snooganssnoogans's particularly lopsided edit here, in which introductions and conclusions of Jill Stein's arguments were cited, but the argument itself strangely disappeared from at least some of the 16 quotes s/he added from the WaPo. (cf. talk here). Tryptofish does not mention this context of consistent disruptive editing, nor does he mention his own, somewhat more troubling, history of it: he came to the Jill Stein thread on the 20th of August, with very pointed stated goals (vaccines, GMOs and pesticides interventions in the article) and added lots of "menacing" warnings about AE in his/her participation in the talk thread. I will not comment on the POV that Tryptofish may or may not be pushing, as I don't understand his actions. Regarding the diffs that are said to relate to "slow edit warring". In an environment of (occasionally) diametrically opposed viewpoints, and on a page where one editor has been going up to 3RR frequently on a regular basis in July and August (I came to the thread only in August myself), it is not surprising to find that I made 2 reverts on a section recently marked by another user as non-neutral precisely because of the text concerned. Repeated requests have been made to the editor to rework the paragraph he has added and reworked over time, to no avail. [20]. I have likewise had to remove an unreliable source that the user deliberately smuggled back into the article at [15:10 27 Aug 2016, after admitting the source had failed a basic fact-check talk 15:04 27 Aug 2016 and should not be included.
I have responded at length on my talk page and at Talk:Jill_Stein#WP:DUE + cite Talk:Jill_Stein#from_WP:Edit_warring + diff of earlier menacing thousand-year comment from notifier, which I chose to remove from my talk page. SashiRolls (talk) 15:29, 3 September 2016 (UTC) Statement by clpo13I take full ownership of this edit. In my defense, SashiRolls felt that the interview was accorded undue weight, so I figured I'd see what all would have to go if the source wasn't used. Turns out there was a lot. Well, I put it all back and received a (rightful) admonishment about being WP:POINTy, which I've taken to heart. Anyways, SashiRoll's original complaint was vague, and a follow-up response clarified that the real issue was WaPo's apparent bias against Sanders (and by extension Stein, I guess). But that still comes across as "WaPo doesn't like my candidate so we shouldn't use it as a reference". It took a fair bit of needling to get any further explanation. I can understand the sentiment that no Wikipedia article should rely so much on a single article, but this wasn't a good way to go about making an objection since it wasn't clear to many people what the issue actually was. As a final note: relying on the bot to fix the reference names probably wasn't the best idea, since over an hour passed between the first change and my fix, during which time the source was inaccessible to readers. clpo13(talk) 23:37, 1 September 2016 (UTC) Statement by The Four DeucesJill Stein is not a "page[] relating to genetically modified organisms, commercially produced agricultural chemicals and the companies that produce them, broadly construed." Earlier, it was determined in a request for clarification in which Tryptofish participated, that Bernie Sanders was not a page related to GMOs. (See: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically modified organisms.) Both Stein and Sanders are or were 2016 presidential candidates who are critics of GMOs. Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Genetically modified organisms applies to 11 named articles and "will be implemented, broadly construed, for other articles in the subject area." Furthermore, there is no template for GMO on the talk page, although there is one for "American politics 2." 1RR is not part of U.S. politics general sanctions[21] and would be too draconian for such a wide topic area. Trypofish falsely claimed at Talk:Jill Stein, "I want to make it very clear to editors that the content that I reverted violates the [GMO] Discretionary Sanctions linked above, because it alters the language that was established in the community RfC about GMOs. Editors must not make up alternative language, and doing so will result in Arbitration Enforcement." [20:55, 27 August 2016[22]] While the closing adminstrator determined the consensus of the RfC and set discretionary sanctions, those sanctions were not for disgreeing with the determination of facts in the RfC. Ironically, Stein has not said that currently manufactured GMO food is unsafe. The articles in The Washington Post and others are cited in the article as the opinions of their authors, not as statements of fact. While SashiRolls unfortunately says the paper is not rs, he actually argues that it is biased, and provides an article originally published in Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting ("Washington Post Ran 16 Negative Stories on Bernie Sanders in 16 Hours") as a source.[23] [22:43, 31 August 2016[24]] The paper's editorial board has called Trump a "clear and present danger."[25] although it has not yet endorsed Clinton. It is not a stretch of the imagination to assume that at least some of the opinions expressed in the paper have a partisan tinge. The article by Steven T. Corneliussen, ""Media coverage thin for presidential candidates’ science awareness and views", in Physics Today, does not "clearly agree[] with the criticism" of Stein, as Tryptofish says. [1 September 2016[26]] It says only, "An opinion piece at Slate dismissed Green Party candidate Jill Stein as “a Harvard-trained physician who panders to pseudoscience” concerning genetically modified organisms, pesticides, “quack medicine,” and vaccine efficacy. If anything it draws into question the extensive concentration on science issues that Trypofish has shown. Tryptofish was an involved party in Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically modified organisms. It appears that his interest in that topic has brought him to the Jill Stein article and blurs his neutrality. S/he has not provided edits on any Green-related articles except to add opinions that they are anti-science. TFD (talk) 00:03, 2 September 2016 (UTC) Statement by Timothyjosephwood
Statement by snooganssnoogansThe user SashiRolls has for the last few weeks engaged in constant disruptive editing on the Jill Stein page. I'll try to limit this text to just recent examples of disruptive behavior. The user repeatedly:
References
- Snooganssnoogans (talk) 16:38, 2 September 2016 (UTC) Statement by NeutralityI agree completely with Snooganssnoogans and Timothyjosephwood others who have commented. On Stein and Stein-related articles, SashiRolls' sustained course of conduct has been completely unacceptable, and the array of problems is broad: everything from casting aspersions to personal attacks to POV-pushing. I also agree with Timothyjosephwood that it would be wise to act on this report relatively rapidly. If this file weren't open, this matter might well be up at ANI for discussion of a possible topic ban of SashiRolls. Neutralitytalk 18:24, 3 September 2016 (UTC) Result concerning SashiRolls
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Sahrin
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Sahrin
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Jytdog (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 05:10, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Sahrin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gun_control#Discretionary_sanctions
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
The following starters are from the EWN case just a couple days ago the EWN case closed just a day ago
- edit note "revert possible vandalism"
- edit note "The source is given in the line. Gun zealots are taking over this page. Guys, what is it you hope to accomplish here?"
- edit note "Since the section is disputed, I am reverting to the original version of the article before the article was brigaded by revisionist gun types"
- here edit note: "Attempting to intimidate another editor is extremely inappropriate" (after getting 3RR and DS notice from me)
- in the midst of that, Sahrin gave uw-disruptive1 template user talk warnings to User:Deli nk here and User:Rms125a@hotmail.com here and this warning about "harassment" on my User page. (those diffs not brought in the EWN case)
- At EWN, Sahrin wrote this truly strange attack on me. No diffs, not true, and almost incomprehensible.
The EWN notice resulted in Sahrin being blocked for edit warring by User:Someguy1221. First three contribs upon returning:
- 03:11, 2 September 2016 At the article Talk page, personal attacks on me and admin that blocked Sahrin for EW; WP:POINTy suggestion about deleting the whole section; and more or less incomprehensible argument. No questions or effort to discuss
- 03:15, 2 September 2016 At Someguy1221's talk page, accusation of abuse of tools
- 03:23, 2 September 2016 Further personal attacks now with "whitewashing", and yet more incomprehensible arguments at the article Talk page. Nothing about, say, how the sources support the content or asking what the issue is.
I took at shot at talking with them, ignoring the attacks and strangeness: dif
- and here is the response: dif. This is impossible to follow (really - the stuff about "To suggest that somehow the entirety of the controversy is "AMA wants $10M in the budget for gun violence research, Congress rejects it" is, as I said in my original edit however many days ago spurious. But your brigade/sock poppets/etc continue to insist that it isn't spurious" .... it just makes no sense. And more accusations of "whitewashing", etc.
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- 24 hour blocked for 3RR on Aug 31
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
I have to imagine that this is why Arbcom sets up enduring DS on this topic; I don't even edit gun topics, but I am a "Gun zealot"? It is crazy. Every edit they have made since this started has been laden with personal attack and emotion; typical of these issues that have DS on them. But this is over top; there is no room to work here.
I don't want to bring content into this, but there is also a WP:CIR thing going on here, as the Dickey Amendment doesn't say what Sahrin thinks it does, - this is really simple;
- The content Sarhin was trying to add (dif): "The amendment specifically bans the CDC from reporting results that suggest gun control would reduce violence."
- What the amendment says in its entirety, which is in the article just above where Sahrin wanted to insert the content: "“none of the funds made available for injury prevention and control at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) may be used to advocate or promote gun control.” (ref, p 244.
It is/was not even a hard issue to resolve in some ways. I ~think~ maybe Sahrin wants to say something about the effect of the Dickey Amendment on researchers but with all the aggression, attacks, and demands, and tangle, I can't figure out what that might be. The behavior and approach to other editors makes working it out way uglier than anything has to be in WP and there is no reason to put up with this. This is what DS are for; please apply them.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- Notice (sorry, I couldn't find the notice template, and I did this after I saved Jytdog (talk) 05:15, 2 September 2016 (UTC))
- From Sahrin's second revert above and throughout their response below they have characteriized me as some kind of "gun zealot" or "passionate about this issue". As I noted above I don't edit gun topics in WP; Sahrin brings zero diffs to support that characterization; it is an assumption of bad faith on their part. I edit mostly health/medicine and this article (Center for Disease Control) has been on my since May (see my contrib history to that article) and I was simply reacting to bad editing (OR/editorialzing unsupported by the sources) as I do across articles I watch, and as has every one else who has looked at the edits Sarhin made to this article (1 IP and 3 editors besides me).
Sahrin does not seem to be able to manage this simple WP 101 content dispute without viewing and characterizing the people who have disagreed with their edits as being "gun zealots" or "revisionist gun types" (??) who "brigade" (??) and sockpuppet and vandalize. I showed this with diffs above. Sahrin continues to characterize me that way even here at AE. I have no idea what the rest of their editing is like but this has all been completely (and I mean completely) unacceptable behavior on their part, from their first response to opposition to their edits on this article (charactering the IP's revert as "vandalism") and on through their comments below. I don't see how it makes sense that they should continue to edit on gun control issues. Jytdog (talk) 14:47, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Sahrin
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Sahrin
I can only laugh bemusedly at this entire affair. From day one Jytdog has behaved aggressively and harassed me. Based on the evidence that is available in the logs, it can be seen that Jytdog's initial and repeated effort was to revert a consensus version of the article that was achieved a few weeks before this incident. He was saved from a 3RR violation only by brigading the article (ie, summoning either a like-minded user, or a sock puppet account to revert so that he did not jeopardize his own account). I admit I was not aware of the "bright line" 3RR rule, but overturning an existing consensus (which contained both the content of the law in question; as the initial 'other side' advocated; as well as the actual cause of the controversy (the effort to censor researchers) seemed grounds for aggressive action. I was banned, and was wrong to revert three times without logging into an alt account as Jytdog did.
The issue began, though, when Jytdog, after seeing my reverts, initiated an aggressive program of harassment - making three separate edits to my user talk page (all evidenced in his links above so I won't reproduce them) in response to a *single edit.* His every effort appeared to be to entrap me into a 3RR violation, including very strong language in comments in edit notes like "This is not optional." I admit, I was frustrated, and reverted three times. But the notion that anything is being done but normal revision of an article that is being interfered with by Jytdog is absolutely hilarious. His behavior has gone over the line time and again, and when this is pointed out to him (that he is harassing me and brigading an article) he responds with "personal attacks! personal attacks!" That's all fine, but the evidence just isn't there for that behavior. With the exception of the 3RR I have remained civil and results oriented at all times, meanwhile Jytdog seems to be interested in carrying out a personal vendetta against me...why I cannot say.
There are a number of problems with Jytdog's version of events:
- 1. He continuously references the original draft of my edit to the article, as if I have not changed in response to the community's feedback. A cursory glance of the edit history will show that I have made *numerous* changes to this draft. One wonders why Jytdog ignores these changes, and instead presents the situation as if I am stubbornly refusing to cooperate with others.
- 2. After the 3RR, seeing how heated the situation had become, I reached a compromise. It was very clear that Jytdog's faction did not want any mention of the censorship problem presented by the amendment in the article. It occurred to me while I was on 'vacation' that the entirety of the section was a silly thing to have in the encyclopedia in the first place! It's an agency with a $7B budget, without the censorship issue we are talking about (and Jytdog's faction's edit) presented the "controvery" as a dispute between the AMA and Congress over a $10M (million) line item in the CDC's budget for a single fiscal year...This is a controversy? This is worthy of inclusion in the encyclopedia? No, not really. So if we're absolutely certain that there is no evidence for a stronger problem, then let's dump the section altogether! We can 'whitewash' the problem as Jytdog's faction wants, while at the same time maintaining out commitment to notability? This compromise is apparently what set Jytdog off, because he immediately began threatening me with further sanctions.
- 3. I told him his threats and intimidation wouldn't work, and *continued discussing in a civil and results-oriented manner.* Jytdog responded by submitting this Arb Request.
- 4. The edit to Someguy1221's user page was specifically not about Someguy1221 or this situation. The comments even say so. I understand why both Jytdog and Someguy1221 would think that is was, except I indicated in the comments that it wasn't. Having experienced the "reporting" process myself now, I can see that it is not something I would willingly submit other users to, even if they are admins...so I can't go into further detail.
- 5. The sort of "Cherry on top" is Jytdog's last section above which begins, "I think Sahrin wants to say..." Like, dude, this is what you should be saying in the Talk page without all the threats and harassment! That's what editing is, discussing the issue! *sigh* I can admit there's a lot I don't understand about this community, but I have been here for a long time and I've never experienced this kind of behavior from another editor (the aggressive, adversarial, "get mom to intervene" behavior). I'm not the WP police and to each his own, for sure, but what's missing here is any evidence of any kind of wrongdoing except the 3RR violation. But instead of doing so, Jytdog carries the dispute into an enforcement action.
- 6. All of this behavior is what led me to the conclusion that there is a NPOV issue related to Jytdog.
In short, I don't have a comprehensive understanding of all the WP:Policy bits. I made an error before in the 3RR situation, and I apologize for that. But what going on here is a very passionate editor has lost perspective on a situation, and is trying to push his own feeling too far.
I've been editing WP for...13 years now, I believe. If the Arb committee decides it's my time to go, then it's my time. Thanks for the good times, it was a fun project to contribute to.
- (Moved from OID section) I've seen the same kind of cryptic comments from Jytdog. "Nothing else need be said" "I refuse to say any more" etc. What secret mysterious world are you privy to that I am not, which includes this information? It's a child's approach to a situation. If there's a problem, say what the problem is. If you can't articulate the problem clearly, then perhaps there is not an issue and you're just responding out of emotion rather than reason. Sahrin (talk) 15:34, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
Added 21:30 UTC: So I have reviewed Jytdog's block log. It appears he has been banned permanently on two separate instances for similar behaviors, only to be unbanned after appealing to the Arb Committee. I can't see into the committee's deliberations myself, but if I've ever heard of a case of misplaced aggression/transferrance this appears to follow it to a textbook. In my entire history with WP I have never had any interaction with Admins or disciplinary groups, until Jytdog. Sahrin (talk) 21:32, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
Added 2016-19-05 1746 UTC: Comment on the admin's page *was not about this issue.* This was stated several times and for the record above. Comments regarding neutrality of other editors were made only after my neutrality was questioned, and repeated reverts were made without substantiation for the revert. As I noted, I became frustrated and committed the 3RR. I have already backed away from the dispute; I made a further comment on the talk page which failed to achieve consensus and have not said anything further on the topic. The evidence for "whitewashing" is readily available - there were repeated attempts to remove factually true information from an article to present a particular viewpoint (that there was no controversy), I must admit I find it frustrating that the admins in question have not seen this in the record; if agreeing to remove myself from the situation is what causes this to blow over then I'm totally down with it. As far as de-escalating, I will not have anything further to do with the topic or certainly the editor in question. I have received messages from several other editors criticizing the neutrality/behavior of the editor in question in the past, and need no further convincing that he is not someone I want to be involved with. Sahrin (talk) 21:51, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
Statement by OID
Please note in the above statement where Sahrin accuses Jytdog of socking to avoid 3rr ("I was banned, and was wrong to revert three times without logging into an alt account as Jytdog did."). Dont think anything more needs to be said. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:24, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
- See WP:NPA. You are accusing another editor of deliberately sockpuppeting in order to game the 3rr violation. Which raises a number of issues, 1. Its highly unlikely you have been around this long and do not know about assuming good faith and not making unsubstantiated personal attacks on other editors. 2. You claimed you were not aware of 3rr and yet clearly aware enough to accuse someone of sockpuppeting to avoid it. (Also AE is one of those pages where comments are restricted to editor's own sections - no threading.) Only in death does duty end (talk) 15:38, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Sahrin
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- Sahrin's conduct in this is fairly bizarre and I don't believe they weren't aware of the 3RR rule. I think a general warning to avoid personal attacks and avoid future edit warring would be sufficient here. The behavior seems isolated, so I wouldn't be comfortable imposing a topic sanction at this time. Lord Roem ~ (talk) 20:38, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
- I would agree with User:Lord Roem if there were any evidence that User:Sahrin was willing to back away from the dispute. Sahrin is a long-time editor and it seems correct to describe his conduct this one time as fairly bizarre. A routine editorial dispute doesn't need to turn into a federal case. If people give evidence through the language they use that they may be unable to edit neutrally on a topic such as gun control, it is common to issue a topic ban. There may be time to avoid that. If we didn't want to use discretionary sanctions a one-week block for personal attacks might be considered, which could still be avoided. The thing that's hard to swallow is that he continues beating the war drums right here in his AE response. He has even suggested that he might report the admin who issued the 3RR block for abuse of admin privileges. EdJohnston (talk) 15:48, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
- Fair enough, you can definitely take his "whitewashing" remarks as evidence that they're unable to edit neutrally in the topic. I wouldn't be opposed to a non-DS block for these completely unsubstantiated personal attacks; if a topic sanction were issued, I'd prefer it be on the short side. Lord Roem ~ (talk) 17:40, 5 September 2016 (UTC)