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Those who happen by this page may wish to be on the alert for efforts to hack into their private email accounts.

As happened to one wikipedia editor, as described in short here.--Epeefleche (talk) 02:19, 1 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

For your heads up on phishing

Kittens think fish are delicious. Phish, not so much. Danger (talk) 01:40, 6 March 2011 (UTC) PLease do not send unsolicited messages to this IP Addresss, it belong to the American Civil Liberties Union and we will take legal action against hacking. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.82.38.47 (talk) 21:29, 26 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

On behalf of WP:CHICAGO, I thank you for your contribution to one of wikipedia's latest WP:GA's

This user helped promote Sam Fuld to good article status.

--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:34, 28 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Fuld again

Wow, your talk page is almost as busy as mine! Anyway, I've passed Fuld. Nice work. :) HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:50, 10 March 2011 (UTC) Here:[reply]

I noticed your name and Sportswoman of the Year Award pop up on my watchlist. I think this could be an FL without a tremendous amount of work, though the scope needs to expand and include the 1980-1992 professional and amateur award winners. Interested in working together to get it there? Courcelles 10:34, 9 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sure thing! Sounds like a fine idea. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 14:21, 9 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Great, I'll try to get the other tables in by the weekend. Courcelles 16:06, 10 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Let me know if I owe you anything on this.--Epeefleche (talk) 17:55, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there. You recently uploaded a number of images with claims of fair use. In case you were not aware, a rationale of "for use in the infobox" is not sufficient. You must provide a detailed and valid reason for including the image in the article (the purpose) to explain why it meets our non-free content criteria policy. For the images you have uploaded I would say they are "the primary means of visual identification of the subject or topic". Please also see our non-free use rationale guideline for further guidance. Regards, _wjemather^bigissue 10:20, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In posting yet again on my talkpage, WJE has ignored my clear request that he not do so. A request that I have reiterated to him.

WJE was blocked just two months ago for disruption on my talk page, following his hounding me. WJE protested his block twice, his block was affirmed twice, and he then deleted all mention of his block from his talkpage.

The first affirming sysop said: "It's really not a good idea to fixate on another editor and get into a prolonged conflict with them, which you clearly have done." Yet now, two months later, here WJE is—doing it again. The fact that WJE fixated on my very few recent image-creation edits is a clear sign. The sysop appears to have been correct. I have asked that WJE stop.

The final affirming sysop said to WJE, as to WJE's disruption: "you do not convince me that you won't repeat it". That sysop appears to have been prescient, as well. I have again asked that WJE stop.--Epeefleche (talk) 03:42, 20 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As you have been told before, the raising of clear and obvious editing problems relating to policy is not hounding, and responding as you have with such accusations will not be tolerated. You would also do well not to quote people out of context and misrepresent what they have actually said.

Despite Greg reaffirming that you must provide proper rationale for these images and giving further guidance, and having had plenty of time, you have still not done so. In my view is is unwise for an editor with an open CCI case to demonstrate further total disregard for copyright issues. This is the final warning you will receive in this regard. Please do as requested and rectify this as soon as possible. _wjemather^bigissue 08:25, 20 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Greg also reaffirms that you, WJE, by coming here less than 24 hours later to badger him about how he hasn’t reacted quickly enough—at least to your satisfaction—after you pointed out the shortcomings of his work, is poor form. You’re acting like a 12-year-old. To use your imperious style: Final warning. Greg L (talk) 14:32, 20 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• I note the highly personal tone in this section, but can we just discuss the fundamental issue(s). The lack of references to specific images makes it difficult to assess the situation, as each fair use claim is highly context-dependent. For example, far use is almost never acceptable when it comes to even low-res images of living people, but are almost universally accepted to illustrate books and albums. So, could we have some concrete examples, please? --Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 02:37, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Fair question.

First of all, the truly fundamental issue is being discussed at AN/I here. The issue being, given the history of hounding and warnings described there, and the most current events in the wake of the recent 2-day block of WJE for same, how we should address matters.

Second, as to the substantive "image rationale" question you pose, the simple answer is that WJE failed to supply any diffs. But I would guess he is referring to my add of an image and rationale for a book cover (no images of people) of a book on philanthropy. And my similar adds of 5 covers/logos of local US Jewish newspapers (again, no images of people; let me know if you need those diffs as well).

He attacked my "use in infobox" rationale for the images. However, that is the accepted rationale for many thousands of such images.

Furthermore, I added those images and rationales only after receiving precise, detailed advice from senior editor Beyond My Ken (who focuses on images), which I followed.

See BMK advice, and BMK's comments on the substance of WJE's assertions here ("technically correct, but in my opinion is being overly pedantic. ... As far as I am aware, most people understand that "for use in the infobox" means "to visually identify the subject of the article" or whatever wordage the editor used. Per WP:BURO I don't think it's absolutely necessary to change what you did (on my advice)").

Inasmuch as WJE has been requested to stop posting on my tp, and I would hope he will comply with my request at this point so as to not violate wp:harass, I imagine if he wishes to communicate with you on this issue he will do so on your tp or in some other manner.--Epeefleche (talk) 03:11, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• I would agree with the description 'pedantic'. He may have a point if there is no critical commentary on the cover itself within the article, but such use without commentary is largely ignored, or overlooked as being a mere technicality. Also, Mather doesn't seem to be previously interested in image use. Unusual enough to re-ignite suspected hounding as motivation, given history of bad blood between you two. --Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 03:27, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Interaction ban on Wjemather

I have closed the thread and imposed an interaction ban on Wjemather. I doubt the advice is needed but: avoid interacting with him, even though the sanction is technically not two way. FWIW I feel there was no consensus to block him at this time, esp. as it is something of a "one-off" since the last block he had (and I am inclined to mark it down as a last chance). Hopefully by not interacting that simply solves the problem. Cheers. :) --Errant ^(chat!) 00:04, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Epeefleche, wanted to get back to you on message about place of birth in the lead of articles. Most of the high-quality biography articles, ones rated Good Article or Featured class, seem to omit place of birth/death from the parenthetical opening to the lead. Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies) appears to support that practice as well. I agree with the omission because it makes the leads cleaner looking. Place of birth/death can be listed in the infobox and should be integrated where appropriate into the body of the article or farther down in the lead if important enough. Jweiss11 (talk) 17:44, 20 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I know you help clear out unreferenced redlinks in lists of people - I have a question about the guidelines there on which I'd be interested to hear your view. Dsp13 (talk) 21:34, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

List of table tennis players

Hello again Epeefleche,

so I agree with you that a wikipage or a reference should be present for each player in the list. For this reason I'm beginning to create missing wikipages. Therefor I gently ask you to not remove random players from the list since the list is curretly acting as my reference point. If you would like to helo you could create missing players wikipages.Cialo (talk) 14:07, 26 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(talk page stalker) - Hi, if articles of these people are going to be created later it should be easy to provide a single WP:RS that supports them being in the list. Other wise the redlinked names are worse than useless to the reader and encourage drive by additions of any name at all. Ivan Andreadis this for example (and others) sits there uncited and unexplained without any worth at all. Off2riorob (talk) 14:22, 26 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

List of table tennis players

Thank you for your work with dab... I have created the table tennis players paged and linked ;) --Cialo (talk) 13:05, 6 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate your taking the time to select some images for List of sports-related people from Mississippi (diff). Given the number of available choices, I like the selections that you made. — CobraWiki ^{( jabber | stuff )} 17:21, 1 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Started the review! Staxringold _talk

A request for comments has been filed concerning the conduct of Philip Baird Shearer (talk · contribs). You are invited to comment on the discussion at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Philip Baird Shearer. -- Parrot of Doom 11:01, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Can you slow down with the prods of Polish musical groups and bands? Just looking quickly at the large number you recently prodded I can tell that you're tagging a lot of groups which are very clearly notable (anyone even vaguely familiar with Polish rock music would have heard of them - which is also evidence by the interiwiki links in some of them). But at the rate you're going it might be difficult to keep up with you.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:48, 22 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not a problem. All of them in fact failed A7 in my view. They lacked indicia of notability, such as 2 notable musicians, or albums for notable labels, or appropriate awards, etc. For example, Exodus (Polish band), which you just prodded, saying that the notability was "already indicated in the article" -- I can't find such an indication that meets wp criteria for notability of bands (and the article is completely bereft of references). If they are notable per wp rules, I'm happy for them to remain of course. Perhaps you can find support that is not reflected in the current sourcing, which is reflected in the Polish media. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 05:52, 22 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

For that one, I'da thought that "one of the leading progressive rock bands in Polish rock in late 70s and early 80s" would've been enough. I realize that a lot of these are stubs and unsourced and I wouldn't have a problem with this if it was spread out over time but I (or I expect, others) am not going to have enough time to fix them all at once. Btw, can you leave a note about which ones you prodded/tagged at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Poland? I know about a lot of those, but some, especially the more recent ones, I am not familiar with and there's probably folks there that can help. Thanks.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:00, 22 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't see anything that meets the guidelines. "A leading band" is not a criterion. And because we need a "credible" claim to notability, I think that when the only statement is "X band -- a leading band" -- and the like, without any support, and without even any indication of indicia used to to measure whether they are a "leading" band, that A7 is appropriate in any event. You can see what is PROD'd on my recent contributions list. I don't intend to prod any more this month, but may AfD some depending on how they look as PRODs are removed, so in that sense there is a bit of flux. And, of course, PRODs are removed, as well as tags, so the whole matter is in flux as a result of that. Feel free to look at what I have PROD'd, and leave the note you mention. It will be great if Polish-speakers can bring them up to non-PRODable status, to the extent that can be accomplished. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 06:05, 22 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've restored both of these articles per a request at WP:REFUND. However, I'm curious as to why you used a CSD rationale as your PROD reason. If you think these 2 articles should be speedy deleted then why not just use {{db-band}}? --Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:05, 24 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ahah -- thanks for the pointer, Ron. I see -- I've been using the speedy rationale, but putting the articles through a non-speedy process.--Epeefleche (talk) 00:29, 24 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't agree that Brunette Models is proposed that this article has been deleted. This team is very significant in Poland. Is played in Europe, the U.S. and worldwide. It is one of the precursors of ambient-style music in Poland. Sorry, does the proposal to remove is because Brunette Models has a Jewish origin and he has problems with the organization of the Nazi Redwatch? Maybe the same person suggests the deletion of Wikipedia, and that other one portal?

• Brunette Models on REDWATCH website

Thanks and regards! Γραφή (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:58, 22 May 2011 (UTC).[reply]

No, I'm not seeking to delete the article because of an anti-Semitic leaning on my part, driving me to delete the article because the band has a Jewish origin. And no, I am not seeking to delete the article because of any personal bias on my part in favor of Nazi organizations.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:07, 24 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As I see you ventured boldly into a whole hornet's nest of underdeveloped band artciles. After some thought I agree with your work: if someone cares about them, they must take care. Otherwise wikipedia may quickly turn into a source of misinformation, since it is often blindly copied in multitudes, especiallty for little known topics. Muslim lo Juheu (talk) 17:36, 25 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Yes, your take is correct. I'm a fan of bands, and fully supportive of us having good articles. And, as you can tell, my primary focus on wp is content creation. Having articles on bands that do not meet our standards waters down the helpfulness of the project, IMHO. But I would always prefer to have support for notability discovered, and an article kept. And this area is one that does appear to attract more non-notable articles than many other areas. Your note is especially appreciated, of course, as we have different views as to one particular band article. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:16, 25 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You're welcome. And thanks for informing me of that; I wasn't aware that MoS had a guideline for that. What's ironic is that I myself don't generally care for sandwiching images like that, but in trying to make the images work in that article, I thought they ended up looking all right. Can you link me to the relevant MoS page? I'll look it over and remove some of the images if need be. Thanks. Nightscream (talk) 23:02, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate your discretion and even-handedness. I particularly appreciate the MoS link, largely because I have now discovered the Picture Tutorial, which shows me how to co-align images, which I've never gotten around to learning how to do. Thanks! Nightscream (talk) 23:40, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Chittay (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

You left an incomplete AFD there. Just FYI, I found it when I was going through the weekly list. tedder (talk) 14:31, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Tx. I'm not sure what the SNAFU is. I'm leaving all through twinkle. Some seem to be incomplete I learn (when I bot completes them ... which seems to be what happens if they are left as-is). How do I check if any one I've twinkled is incomplete through some twinkle snafu, and if they are how do I perform the last step? Tx.--Epeefleche (talk) 15:55, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, if Wikipedia is heavily loaded Twinkle will sometimes fail. A bot will complete step 3, but not step 2. (steps at WP:AFDHOWTO. To check for incomplete step 2, reload the article page and make sure the AFD discussion link isn't a redlink. To check for step 3, you can look for "what links here" on the AFD discussion. But again, step3 can be picked up by a bot, so I worry about it less. But step 2 involves your argument for deletion. Sometimes I'll copy the deletion rationale from the twinkle popup box- if it fails, I can try again and paste the rationale. tedder (talk) 16:03, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I'll check for redlinks as you suggest. In the meantime, I PRODed the article, which seemed to work, and perhaps is what I should have done in the first place. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 16:08, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No worries. Most "step 2 incompletes" are an IP who doesn't leave rationale or something similar- when I saw it was a more productive editor than I am, I figured it was worth letting you know about it. tedder (talk) 16:12, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Epeefleche. I am just letting you know that I declined the speedy deletion of H'Sao, a page you tagged for speedy deletion, because of the following concern: Probably sufficient info to avoid Speedy. maybe PROD or AfD would be a better choice. Thank you. Alexf^(talk) 18:41, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What "sufficient info" are you referring to? Thanks.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:00, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Just a simple thanks for your hard work! Regards, Tinton5 (talk) 19:27, 22 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Just wanted you to know that I struck my delete vote at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Shaarei Tefillah based upon your improvements to the article. Good job. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 13:10, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I notice that you recently created a new page, Earl Williams (basketbal coachl). First, thank you for your contribution; Wikipedia relies solely on the efforts of volunteers such as you. Unfortunately, the page you created covers a topic on which we already have a page - this was a tyop. Because of the duplication, your article has been tagged for speedy deletion. Please note that this is not a comment on you personally and we hope you will continue helping to improve Wikipedia. If the topic of the article you created is one that interests you, then perhaps you would like to help out at this was a tyop - you might like to discuss new information at the article's talk page.

If you think that the article you created should remain separate, contest the deletion by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion," which appears inside of the speedy deletion ({{db-...}}) tag (if no such tag exists, the page is no longer a speedy delete candidate). Doing so will take you to the talk page where you will find a pre-formatted place for you to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that the administrator userfy the page or email a copy to you. Additionally if you would like to have someone review articles you create before they go live so they are not nominated for deletion shortly after you post them, allow me to suggest the article creation process and using our search feature to find related information we already have in the encyclopedia. Try not to be discouraged. Wikipedia looks forward to your future contributions. Epeefleche (talk) 00:48, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Give me one good reason why I shouldn't block you per WP:DTTR :) --Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:54, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That is the funniest thing I have read on these pages in MONTHS! Thanks for giving me a good belly laugh! Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 00:58, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I saw your addition of Dan Grunfeld as a notable to the article for Franklin Lakes, New Jersey. No source was included to support his residence there. I know that his father Ernie Grunfeld lived there during Dan's early childhood to teens, as is stated and sourced in Ernie's article, but I can't find any reliable and verifiable source to support that Dan lived there. The same issue applies to his inclusion on the New Jersey notables article. I have very strong reasons to believe he did live in Franklin Lakes, but without a source there's an issue. What source were you relying on? Alansohn (talk) 20:52, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I was working off of its entry in his wp article, but it is further supported by a NY Daily News article ( "The kitchen of the Grunfeld home in Franklin Lakes, N.J.... On one wall is a family picture, puzzle style, with five pieces. Four of the pieces are Ernie Grunfeld, his wife, Nancy, and their children, Rebecca and Danny.") and a Newsday article ("The Jersey Kid Danny Grunfeld of Franklin Lakes N.J. is only 8 yet he emerged as one of the leaders of the Wildcats Maybe it's genetic his father Ernie..."), and a Jewish Tribune article ("Dan Grunfeld ... was born in Livingston, NJ, before moving to nearby Franklin Lakes."). Perhaps you limited your search to "Dan", and missed the RSs mentioning "Danny" and "Daniel" (there are more under Daniel as well)?--Epeefleche (talk) 21:10, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I sometimes have to remind myself of alternate versions of names and how Google doesn't think of that for you. There was a source staring me in the face in the article about his father that says he lives in Franklin Lakes with his children, including Danny. I realized immediately that I had missed potential sources, but I had what I needed. Thanks again for the other sources. Alansohn (talk) 22:34, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Epeefleche - since you've recently added a whole bunch of new articles, I've listed them here. It would be really great if you could list them yourself, though, since it takes a while for them to show up on the radar. --Sreifa (talk) 06:32, 3 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

FYI

Cheers for writing the article Hanna Zemer. Please try to use the template {{WikiProject Israel}} and not WP Israel (for compatibility reasons). —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 09:53, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Great work expanding the Jack Mealey page. Alex (talk) 02:15, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

could you stop to continue to cancel part of the article? "There must be an article on the subject, or a ref--or the entry is to be deleted" is it a rule of wikipedia? if it creates proplems to you, begin to write an article about the subjects! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.10.250.134 (talk) 17:49, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Yes -- it is a rule of wikipedia. See WP:LISTPEOPLE. We don't encourage people to add names to lists of people, where there is no wp article on the person, and no refs indicating that the person is notable.--Epeefleche (talk) 17:57, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There is currently a dispute resolution open for a page I've been trying (unsuccessfully) to resolve, Heroes in Hell. The dispute page is located here and the relevant dialogue related to this dispute is on the talk page of the article. It would be helpful to get another opinion in here from someone uninvolved with the dispute. I must warn you though, you might want to get comfy before you start going through this material-- there's a lot to read. I, Jethrobot ^{drop me a line} (note: not a bot!) 04:55, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In the article Strange Son, the citation is the one that appears next. I'm not sure how it isn't clear that the citation with the sentence, "Nigel Cole (A Lot Like Love; Calendar Girls) has signed on to helm Strange Son for Revolution Studios, Variety has revealed." doesn't make it clear what is the correct citation for the sentence. Joe Chill (talk) 19:34, 22 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There are multiple citations that follow the sentence, so without cluing in the reader they don't know -- just from looking at the article, without clicking through -- which applies. In any event, IMHO it is better to add a fn to the sentence. It is your hook sentence. Also, the sentence can always be separated from the sentence that follows it, by a later editor. This ensures that you will not end up with your ref in a a succeeding para, where it would not be seen as applying. Also, btw, this is a US subject -- which is why I changed the date format from British to US. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:37, 22 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's fine. I understand your reasoning. I had editors repeatedly tell me to cite sources that way (must be British). I also had editors repeatedly tell me that the plot didn't need to be cited because the book, film, or whatever is the citation (must be confused, I can't find anything that says that). Joe Chill (talk) 19:44, 22 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No worries. As to the first point, next time that happens you can direct the mis-informed editors to read WP:STRONGNAT. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:45, 22 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your great work on Hebrew authors! Ijon (talk) 21:06, 29 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hello!

Just wanted to say thanks for your kind words :) Actually, it was you who "forced" me to make the related article a bit better, as following you created the talk page it appeared in my watchlist and when checked the page I was so terrible upset to see in what condition the article is. (Duh, I hate to see one line stubs. Why did I not expand it earlier...)

On the other hand, as I saw, you edited a lot of Jewish related articles so I guess you have the knowledge and sources. Márton has a younger brother, János Vas, who has to be a Jew as well. Maybe is there a reference that supports it? It could be a good addition to the article. -- Thehoboclown (talk) 13:44, 15 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

My reliable source on Mike Morse (Baseball) being engaged is I know the woman he is engaged to. It's not published in an article, but I do know for a fact that they are engaged. Please put that back up on Wikipedia.

Thank You — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.116.187.166 (talk) 00:42, 19 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry. But that is not how wp works. You need a reliable source for such an entry. Personal knowledge does not suffice. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 16:50, 10 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with deletion of swimmers with no articles or RS supporting them. I've expanded the intro to better specify inclusion criteria, and added a source for one of the redlinks.

Per WP:BURDEN we should do a cursory search on the web/news/books for RS before deleting the rest of the redlinks. Since WP:N doesn't apply to list contents, but WP:V does, how about using large athlete statistics websites as sufficient RS for inclusion or a news article? Stats sites have been used as RS in vast swaths of sports articles, so how about this one? Of course, wherever multiple RS are found, the athlete's article should just be stubbed and sourced. --Lexein (talk) 13:24, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. Per wp:LISTPEOPLE, which is the most relevant guideline as it applies specifically to lists of this sort, the burden is on the person adding the name in the first place -- they should simply not add non-referenced redlinks ("A person may be included in a list of people if all the following requirements are met ... The person meets the Wikipedia notability requirement... If a person in a list does not have an article in Wikipedia about them, a citation (or link to another article) must be provided to establish their membership in the list's group and to establish their notability.... The person's membership in the list's group is established by reliable sources....." Note -- per the above, the people on such lists must in fact be notable -- we don't add names of swimmers, for example, who exist but who are non-notable.

Per WP:BURDEN, as well, the burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds the material in the first place, and we may remove any such inappropriate unsupported material. This is especially true of BLPs. Lists of people are magnets for people adding red-linked names, lacking any sourcing whatsoever. There are thousands of such entries, though I've personally likely cleared out thousands. My problem is with the low-hanging fruit primarily -- those entries that lack any article as well as any RS refs ... I have no problem with using reliable sports stats sites, such as sports-reference. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:49, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry if I was unclear. I'm well aware of the problem with additions of redlinks, such as at List of indie rock musicians. WP:BURDEN also asserts the good practice of trying to find RS before deleting an unsourced claim. I tend to apply this, because I'm big on preserving, but fine with deleting unsourceable material after checking. WP:LISTPEOPLE does indeed answer the general question, but at List of swimmers you'd keep low hanging fruit items which are delinked and possess an inline RS citation? I'm thinking mainly of Olympic and Nationals placers. --Lexein (talk) 09:51, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. The way that I read it, wp:LISTPEOPLE is the more specific applicable guideline, and the one therefore in my mind to focus on most. It is pretty clear on this. BLP issues raise the bar even further -- and encourage on-sight deletions of unreferenced material. The talk page discussions at wp:LISTPEOPLE are even more draconian -- many editors read it to require deletion if there are not multiple refs per entry, saying one ref for a redlink is not sufficient. Further, some (minority) editors believe all entries should have refs, whether a bluelink entry or redlink. In any event, the general language that you point to in the more general guideline is of course a nice, good practice thing to do -- but that language is not as strong as the other language, which is more specific, and common sense makes it impractical for me to check all such entries on lists. There are tons of inappropriate bare redlinks -- a high percentage are not appropriate, and the entering editor can't go around foisting responsibility on good-faith editors who are cleaning up a list, by making them do research where the entering editor clearly violated the rules with the add in the first place. And little is lost -- we are speaking about bare entries here, completely content-less. If you wish to spend time researching all such entries, that is of course fine, but its not something that is an obligation under the guidelines for other editors to follow. If you think my view is not the common understanding, however, feel free to raise the issue at wp:LISTPEOPLE at the talk page, and just let me know and I will join the conversation. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 14:15, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, no problem. I certainly didn't intend to take up this much of your time. The LISTPEOPLE Talk archives are illuminating. I was not imposing any expectation on you about sourcing! So far, the redlinks at List of swimmers#Lithuania seem appropriate - they all seem to have records and strong placings, so I've unlinked and sourced several. (I prefer to use the word violation only when real harm is probable or real mal-intent is evident which could expose WP to legal liability). I see your point about foisting, and I resent it when it's clear that that's what's happening. And have no fear of me delving into a career as a redlink rehabber . --Lexein (talk) 15:32, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Rehabbers are always welcome!--Epeefleche (talk) 23:19, 15 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It appears that within the AfD template when placed in articles, there needs to be spaces between the vertical bars "|" where the page name is within the template. Otherwise, the link to the AfD is a red link. When the spaces are present, the link functions properly. Northamerica1000^(talk) 23:15, 15 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm. Odd. I'm using Twinkle ... do you think it has a kink? Tx.--Epeefleche (talk) 23:18, 15 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Turns out it's a matter of purging the cache. When doing so, the red link becomes functional. Someone directed me to the information at WP:PURGE. Northamerica1000^(talk) 00:04, 16 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Epeefleche. Thanks for the kind words. I did the date formatting based on him being born in Czech and representing them at the Olympics, but I have no issue with your rationale for the current format. Another really interesting article on an Olympic athlete! Lugnuts (talk) 18:37, 16 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, some editors can get bogged down in trivial edit wars over formatting issues, etc. As long as the dates are correct that's the main thing! Good question about the Olympic athletes for 2012. I guess most of them would already be notable - IE they're already established in their sport and have now done enough for Olympic qualification, so there should be some sources to show general coverage. I aim to finish off the Olympic fencers from 1992 onwards, before picking another "minor" Olympic sport and working through the years on that. Lugnuts (talk) 20:16, 16 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Tx. I, of course, applaud your focus on that "minor" sport. Nice work. --Epeefleche (talk) 20:18, 16 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No probs. WP:STRONGNAT might help with regards to the date formatting. I think I mentioned it before, but it's really interesting to read about former Olympic athletes, esp. those who fought and died during the wars. Still alot of work to do! Lugnuts (talk) 08:39, 17 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That whole sentence-in-each-article has to be revisited. It's the strangest thing I have ever come across Wikipedia. Templating dozens of articles with some new-fangled verbiage with RS's not on the direct subject? It violates all kinds of wiki-policies, let alone that no other encyclpedia has anything similar. Then editors are blocked if they don't follow the guideline? It's really wacko. Where is this discussion anyway? I found this discussion about proposal to add the word "settlement" into the first sentence of dozens of article and that failed as "no consensus." How and where did this happen? --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 03:54, 18 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it could my attention as well. And I had the same question as to where it "happened". I posed that query prominently in the AE discussion. And I agree -- it does seem to be at odds with our guidelines on synth. If it is an agreeable practice, and not a violation of synth, I do have a few thoughts (as also indicated) as to verbiage that we can agree on in a discussion, and then place in all articles that are related to -- but not mentioned in -- the source we use.--Epeefleche (talk) 04:01, 18 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I totally agree with you.I think its obvious violation of WP:SYNTH.I think it should be revisited again.--Shrike (talk) 15:24, 19 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm happy to be part of any discussion revisiting it. Any thoughts as to how best to initiate such a discussion? My thoughts are two-fold. One: It would be good to understand why such a result is not a violation of WP:SYNTH. Two: If it is not a violation, it would be interesting to apply the approach to a number of other areas.--Epeefleche (talk) 23:08, 19 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I thought I should let you know I have honest concerns about Mkativerata’s conduct and honestly and frankly expressed them on his talk page (∆ edit, here). Greg L (talk) 01:50, 23 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The common sense thing to do here (and while I do think there's a good number of copyvios that Eppefleche was - probably out of ignorance - responsible for, see Targeted killing, I also think the indef block was excessive and unjustified) is to unblock him but request that he first participate fully and in good faith in the clean up, before he resumes normal editing. So...

• Unblock him
• Restrict his edits/posts to those related to the CCI issues which were raised.
• Once the CCI is successfully concluded, Epeefleche can resume regular editing.

That way it's a win-win. The copyvios get cleaned up faster and Epee gets to go back to normal editing. While copyvio is a very serious concern, 1) it's actually a Wikipedia wide problem and who knows how many people do it, a random selection of articles suggests that it's pretty common - and this is because we NEVER educate editors as to how not to commit copyvios (hell, "NO COPYVIOs" isn't even one of the main pillars!), and 2) these seem to have been made in good faith. I think at some point Eppefleche got a little defensive and rather than helping to resolve his old mistakes made things worse by his comments and posts - but still, I don't see how keeping the indef block in place would benefit either him/her or the project. Volunteer Marek  04:33, 24 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate the apology. But 6 and 7 miss the point why you were blocked: for incessant talk page and ANI badgering, questioning, pestering and text-walling. No-one can work sanely on your CCI responding to that kind of rubbish. And you need to accept that in light of your record you really don't have the right to a "different view" on copyright questions; you're going to have to accept the blanking, deletion and removal of your content pretty much without debate. That's the only way it will work. In light of the pretty much unanimous consensus in support of your block at ANI, I think you're going to have to recognise this. --Mkativerata (talk) 09:15, 24 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Tripped over this while patrolling CAT:UNB; I am very concerned about the phrase "inadvertent copyvio". You can't copy something accidentally. You just can't. Copying someone elses work is always intentional, and if Epeefleche believes that his copying of the text written by other people was "inadvertent" I have little faith that he could stop himself from doing it again. --Jayron32 04:37, 25 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You say that you "…have little faith that he could stop himself from doing it again." Actually I have considerable "faith". If an error was made sticking too close to wording found in sources—that can be corrected. While I understand your point concerning the word "inadvertent" perhaps one should not dwell on one single word to the exclusion of an entire message. Bus stop (talk) 05:02, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The copyvio is inadvertent when an editor has paraphrased it slightly, believing that they have done enough to prevent it being a copyvio. Epeefleche has generally reworded his contributions the problem was that up until CCI they were still too close to the original text. The editors undertaking the CCI have said that his newer contributions (since the CCI started) do not seem to have this problem. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 06:44, 25 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Fine, but you are not requesting an unblock. He is. I would like him to explain why copying someone elses words, and changing a few of them, is still very very bad, and how that is different from "doing it right". I would need to see Epeefleche, and not you, explain why his purposeful, deliberate copying of text, and changing a few words, was wrong, and what sort of editing would be right. --Jayron32 21:47, 25 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Posting on behalf of Epeefleche, with permission; copied from his email to me.

@Close Para issue, etc. Mkat (himself) wrote: "Fact: everything I've seen Epeefleche create since the CCI started is copyvio-free."[46]

I've been asked to share my understanding as to what constitutes a "close paraphrase" (CP). A CP is a copyviolation. One must, as described below, limit similarity in creative linguistic characteristics and structure to the point that they are non-substantial.[47][48][49]

US caselaw suggests that there is not a copyviolation unless the copying is "substantial" both in quantity and in quality. Courts consider additional factors that include: a) the size of the entire work vs the copied text, b) the level of creativity in the copied text, c) the uniqueness and intricacy of the copied text, and d) how "central" the copied text is.[50][51]

When CP has been asserted, I've sought to address concerns via good faith remediation. As Unscintillating indicates, I did this in the Berman article.[52][53] I've also tried to engage the asserter in discussion on the article talkpage, if remediation did not satisfy him. As suggested by our rules on CP. See the Berman talkpage.

As Moon said, "Sometimes there are good faith disagreements as to what constitutes a close paraphrase. It happens". As Hobit, Jamieson, and Geo's extensive comments at ANI indicate, this was the case with Berman edit # 3. They all thought that the text deleted in that edit was not a CP. Feist and its progeny are relevant US caselaw.[54][55]

5 But the key take-away is that even in that instance, I sought to remediate and address any felt concerns.

In the future, where a CP violation would otherwise exist, I'll apply more often Mkat's suggestion that "in-text attribution is a way around the problem". Excision is another solution. Another remedy is the use in accordance with our non-free content policy of a short quotation. Use—if available—of public domain or compatibly licensed sources avoids the issue, as does permission of the copyright holder. It can also be helpful to use multiple refs.[56][57][58]

As I now have access to a computer and the time, I've added the diffs/refs referenced immediately above.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:05, 10 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

To avoid causing confusion, I'm not responding to any of his words in this edit, but just sharing them. :) --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 23:56, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Epeefleche, it concerns me a bit that your response here addresses US law more than it seems to address Wikipedia's standards. I'm sure you know, given your length of time here, that Wikipedia's standards towards non-free content are deliberately more narrow than US copyright law. You may be able to get away with closely paraphrasing a paragraph out of a 500 page book in a Wikipedia article legally, as it would qualify as fair use, but it does not mesh with community standards. Per copyright policy: "Wikipedia articles may also include quotations, images, or other media under the U.S. Copyright law "fair use" doctrine in accordance with our guidelines for non-free content. In Wikipedia, such "fair use" material should be identified as from an external source by an appropriate method (on the image description page, or history page, as appropriate; quotations should be denoted with quotation marks or block quotation in accordance with Wikipedia's manual of style). This leads to possible restrictions on the use, outside of Wikipedia, of such "fair use" content retrieved from Wikipedia: this "fair use" content does not fall under the CC-BY-SA or GFDL license as such, but under the "fair use" (or similar/different) regulations in the country where the media are retrieved." We are not simply concerned with US law here, or with such factors as may influence leniency of our use as our non-commercial status. I would suggest that you stop thinking, if you are, of "copyright law" and more of "copyright policy." What is a "copyright violation" on Wikipedia - a violation of our copyright policies which require that information taken from non-free sources be presented in your own language and structure, unless you are utilizing brief and clearly marked quotations - would not necessarily be an infringement of copyright under US law. It might not rise to substantial similarity to copy three sentences from a book, for instance, but it is certainly a violation of our policy, unless the material is handled as described at WP:NFC. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 00:12, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What concerns me isn't just the incorrectness of Epeefleche's view (as if the law, as opposed to academic dishonesty, was our only concern) but the fact that he/she continues to have the argument. It is continuing to have the argument that will continue to disrupt the CCI. --Mkativerata (talk) 00:21, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm also quite concerned with the legalistic, rather than the practical, comments by Epeefleche. The proper way to read sources, to use those sources to compose novel text which capture the idea of the source text while being the wholly original text of the wikipedia writer, and the proper sourcing thereof is how to do it right. I was looking for Epeefleche to explain how to read source texts, how to internalize and understand the ideas thereof, how to compose ones own writing based on those ideas, and to cite the source text. Instead I get a bunch of legalistic hoo-haa? I am not encouraged. No, I am not. --Jayron32 05:19, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Jayron32—have you posed any question(s) to Epeefleche? If not, then why are you saying, "I was looking for Epeefleche to explain…"? Why don't you pose a question to Epeefleche, and in that way move the process forward to unblocking someone (Epeefleche) who has been both a productive and a constructive editor? Much of what he has said in his request to be unblocked above is of a conciliatory nature:

"I certainly didn't intend to disrupt the CCI, and don't intend to in the future. "

"I apologize to M for my mistakes, and hope he can understand how I made them honestly."

"I take my commitment here seriously, and I appreciate the gravity of copyright issues."

"The pace of remediation will accelerate with my assistance."

"My effort was not intended to be disruptive; just the opposite."

"I now accept what Moon has helpfully explained; based on that, my initial impression was mistaken."

If you are going to focus single-mindedly on fault-finding you are going to find fault. I also think he should be able to explain the origin of certain misunderstandings that occurred between him and other editors. That could be of a partially exculpatory nature—those may be mitigating factors in what transpired. This is a social project—or at least that is in my understanding of it. If you wish to ask a question of Epeefleche—that might move the dialogue forward. Bus stop (talk) 16:22, 29 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Epeefleche, who should be back at a computer with web access soon, sends the following:

@Mkat--I wasn't trying to continue an argument. I apologize if it seemed that way. Jayron asked me to reflect my understanding as to WP policy on close paraphrases.[59] I re-read our policy and Copyright FAQ, and what they linked to,[60] and tried to comply. I would certainly not have responded had I understood you would not want me to.

Unless you tell me otherwise, I will assume you don't want me to explain my understanding of WP policy further, other than to to assure you that I understand that WP policy requires that we present information taken from non-free sources in our own structure, presentation, and phrasing (unless it is a conforming quotation). Epeefleche.

Passed along verbatim at his request. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 00:30, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Some thoughts on the issue and a proposal

The problem here has not been in your clean up work; the problem has been in your insinuative and aggressive stance towards Mkativerata and some of the others who have addressed copyright issues with you. I don't remember ever having any particular problems with you myself, but I've been shocked by the way you have pursued the recent work on your CCI and am actually impressed that Mkativerata is persisting in the face of it. I have seen CCI cleaners run off of CCIs before by aggressive CCI subjects; it's a major source of disruption in that thankless and understaffed field. You certainly would be welcome (by me, anyway) to rewrite problematic content from scratch. But you have to stay out of the way of people evaluating it and not follow along repeatedly asking "What's wrong with this article?" And you certainly can't personalize it in the way that you have. There are literally thousands of articles to be evaluated; nobody will ever be able to finish if you do that. And there is a growing body of evidence that there are problems in many articles.

CCI will undoubtedly cost some content that is not a copyright problem. That's unfortunate. One of the main purposes of CCI is to try to avoid this, by giving each article evaluation, but it is not completely avoidable since we cannot access all of your sources and we are not able to presume that any of the content you wrote in this period is free of problems. There will very likely be points in the CCI when somebody will blank an article you wrote because it looks like it might have been copied and the sources can't be checked. In the ordinary course of "copyright problem" board work, we don't delete content because it looks like it might have been copied. In a CCI, we sometimes must. CCI remains preferable to the alternative, which is the presumptive deletion of everything per Wikipedia:Copyright violations.

The most constructive way you can contribute is not to say "Prove this one is a problem" but to simply replace challenged text with new, rewritten from scratch. It may not be fun, especially if you think that the original text was fine, but it is the most expeditious way to get through the tedious work of evaluating each of these articles and replacing any confirmed or likely problems. Nobody wants to have to do this, but unfortunately your work in this period has required it. While it may not be a copyright standard you would adopt for Wikipedia, it is the one the community has embraced. Given your skills, I'm pretty sure you could be a force for good in this if you would just put your focus to the cleanup instead of challenging the need for it. :) Barring that, I think your only other option would be to just stay out of the way and do your work elsewhere.

To that end, I have a proposal. I'm not going to unblock you myself, but will reproduce this next paragraph at ANI for community input. It's possible that my proposal will be shot down. :)

I would support your unblock if you would pledge to stop slowing progress (1) by challenging (openly or by insinuation) the existence of the problem and/or (2) by casting aspersions on the competence or motivations of the people doing the work and would instead agree to focus (if you work on the CCI at all) on rewriting content from scratch. Alternatively, I would support your unblock if you were topic banned from the CCI - which would mean staying away from any article tagged as a problem until after it has been resolved and from the people who tag them in any venue. Because I'm never comfortable with silencing people, I would be okay in that case with your having one acceptable person to whom you can email, agreed upon by the community at ANI. This will avoid you becoming a target of an actual vendetta if somebody should choose to take advantage of your vulnerable position. Email to one neutral, designated person rather than on-Wiki communication would eliminate any unintended disruption, as public aspersions on a CCI volunteer in any venue may have a "chilling" effect especially if others are influenced by your accusations. If the person chosen for you to contact agrees there is an issue, he or she may raise it in an appropriate venue.

Apologies for the length. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 12:53, 24 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Epeefleche is not at his computer and is unable to post to Wikipedia but has emailed me the following, with permission to post it on Wikipedia:

As I indicated to you, Elen, and M in our discussion on your talkpage even before the block, I'm happy to assist in the CCI in whatever manner (if any) others see fit.

I agree to whichever of your suggestions is deemed preferable. And whichever it is--I agree, as before, that the copyvios should be deleted (if not fixed). I think that your safeguard makes sense as well, for the reasons you state.

I'm going to reproduce this at ANI as well so that others can see his input. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 20:29, 24 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think Moonriddengirl's proposal is sensible and realistic. Jclemens (talk) 20:46, 24 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• I too think Moonriddengirl's proposal is sensible and realistic. A key nugget of that wisdom is encompassed in these two sentences of hers: The most constructive way you can contribute is not to say "Prove this one is a problem" but to simply replace challenged text with new, rewritten from scratch. It may not be fun, especially if you think that the original text was fine, but it is the most expeditious way to get through the tedious work of evaluating each of these articles and replacing any confirmed or likely problems. So long as Epeefleche conducts himself in a manner where his actions are part of the solution rather than amounting to objections over how others go about fixing past copyvio problems, there will be less wikidrama and faster improvement to the project. Greg L (talk) 19:07, 29 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

An observation and some unanswered questions

I think it Epeefleche is to be unblocked he should not go any where near the articles that are being clean up, (s)he has been given months and months to do that and has been found wanting. I also think that there should be a moratorium on this editor creating or recreating any articles until there is a consensus at ANI that (s)he can do so. I suggest this because there is no evidence that Epeefleche has had an epiphany but rather the (s)he is mouthing platitudes under the duress of a block.

Epeefleche I asked you talk:Targeted killing "As you wrote and then created the article at 00:21 on 30 September 2010, and as it was so quaintly described 'shepherded it' for all these months, don't you remember which parts if any you copied? If you do then why don't you start by listing those pieces you copied from other sources?" You did not reply. So what is the answer?

On ANI you wrote "We are talking about Mkat's deletions yesterday -- years (and 50-80,000 edits?) after I wasn't familiar with our copyvio rules." I asked "Is Epeefleche stating the when (s)he wrote the Targeted killing article on 30 September 2010 (s)he was not familiar with the 'copyright rules'?" and if not familiar when did you become familiar? Well what is the answer to those questions? This is particularly pertinent given the statement given Greg L on on 8 Jan 2011 on Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/Epeefleche where he in-part explains away your actions, because he explained that you have expertise on American copyright law (something that you did not acknowledge or deny at that time). -- PBS (talk) 14:41, 24 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Having looked into it more I assume that Greg L reached his conclusion from a statement you made on 24 December 2010 on the same page, or have you made similar claims about your expertise else where on Wikipedia? -- PBS (talk) 15:16, 24 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I tend to agree with PBS. It was clear to me after I unblocked him from his last indefinite block that he had simply said those things that I wanted to hear, and never actually understood that he had been canvassing. I regretted undoing the block.—Kww(talk) 15:45, 24 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Since I tend to edit on a wordprocesser from various "copied" sources, often jumping between several files, I can see how despite one's trying to change things to avoid copy right violations, one could "inadvertently" make one (especially the way Win7 messes up Wordperfect, but den't me started). However, I also know that Epeeflech has been a very tenditious editor with a strong POV so I can understand where User:PBS and User:Kww are coming from. CarolMooreDC 19:52, 5 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Just for context here, the scenario you describe certainly can happen, but this is not always what we are seeing with Epeefleche. Since I can't reproduce the whole thing here per our policies, this was the first paragraph in the source used for the article Benny Bass (now rev deleted):

Regarding Benny Bass, Jack Dempsey was quoted as saying: "He is the greatest fighter of his weight and inches I have ever set my eyes upon." At a diminutive 5' 2", Benny possessed a bull neck and extraordinary musculature around his shoulders & biceps. He was a powerful force & rarely fought at over 130 pounds. Bass was one of the hardest punchers ever in the featherweight & jr. lightweight divisions. Contemporary Ring Magazine writer, Francis Albertani, described Benny as "A deadly puncher, cool as the proverbial pebble under fire & a masterful boxer."

This was the first paragraph Epeefleche placed in the article. For clarity, I'm bolding precise duplication.

Regarding Benny Bass, Jack Dempsey was quoted as saying: "He is the greatest fighter of his weight and inches I have ever set my eyes upon."[citation omitted] At a diminutive 5' 2", Benny possessed a bull neck and extraordinary musculature around his shoulders & biceps. He was a powerful force & rarely fought at over 130 pounds. Bass was one of the hardest punchers ever in the featherweight and junior lightweight divisions. Contemporary Ring Magazine writer, Francis Albertani, described Benny as "A deadly puncher, cool as the proverbial pebble under fire and a masterful boxer."

The third to the last paragraph in the source says:

Benny was no dummy, however, and even though he lacked much formal scholastic training he had a sharp mind, as evinced by his fluency in five languages. Applying himself with the same resolve he had displayed in the ring, Benny passed a Civil Service exam and worked a desk job for the Philadelphia traffic courts for many years.

This the last paragraph Epeefleche placed in that section:

Benny was no dummy, however, and even though he lacked much formal scholastic training he had a sharp mind, as evinced by his fluency in five languages. Applying himself with the same resolve he had displayed in the ring, Benny passed a Civil Service exam and worked a desk job for the Philadelphia traffic courts for many years.

Some of the content between was original, I believe most of it was not. This remained in publication for years before it was detected, I'm afraid.

While this is among the more extreme set of examples, it is not alone. Epeefleche may have improved his practices in recent years (I'm told he has and don't doubt it), but his violations of copyright policy in articles like these are pretty blatant. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 12:01, 7 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Moon. I've not contested that some of my earliest entries (which include the one you cite above, from over 4.5 years ago) were not appropriate. And I've agreed that any such copyvios should be deleted. I appreciate your comment as to not doubting that I have improved my practices in recent years.--Epeefleche (talk) 16:47, 7 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Epeefleche. I know you haven't contested that. I don't mean to beat you up about it or imply any ongoing issues. I was just clarifying for CarolMoore. :) --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 11:51, 8 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm actually pretty concerned by Epeefleche's response, which continues on with a previous theme that the copyright problems are from years ago. While it's true that the copying and pasting was especially obvious and egregious in the early years of Epeefleche's career, the CCI opened about a year ago because of copyright and plagiarism concerns with recent edits, where the violations were slightly more subtle but clear nonetheless. For example, Epeefleche's edits to Targeted killing, made September 2010, have recently been deleted due to copyright concerns. But only 2 weeks ago, Epeefleche denied that there were any significant problems with copyright in that very article."I don't see the copyvio that is claimed as warranted deletion of this article". This is the crux of the matter. Does Epeefleche accept that there were significant problems of copyright and plagiarism up to December 2010 that need to be cleaned up? --Slp1 (talk) 13:26, 8 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Slp1—I think Epeefleche merely defends the article (Targeted killing) against deletion in the link that you provide above. My personal opinion is that the copyright problems at Targeted killing are relatively minor. There are limited acceptable ways of communicating information and it is a matter of judgement how far a restatement of the material found at sources should differ while still maintaining the original thrust of that material. Epeefleche has clearly expressed a willingness to try to clear up any remaining copyright problems. Bus stop (talk) 15:30, 8 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but "defending" the article is exactly the problem, as it indicates that Epeefleche has not accepted that there is an issue to fix. Why would it be a good idea for him to "clear up" copyright and plagiarism violations that he (and you apparently) do not appear to accept exist. Here is some of the text that Mkativerata removed from the Targeted killing edits from September 2010. I've bolded the text that comes directly from Haaretz[61]:

The opinion, deciding a case brought by two human rights groups, the Public Committee Against Torture in Israel and the Palestinian Society for the Protection of Human Rights and the Environment, set forth [note: preceeding is not even mentioned in Haaretz, and thus is more of a problem with WP:V] what is allowed and what is prohibited, and the directives it gave assured future judicial oversight of all cases in which a targeted killing exceeds the limits of these rules. If it should turn out that a targeted killing was illegal, it might lead to a trial and the paying of compensation to the innocent civilians who were hurt by it. Under the ruling, those involved in causing terror are civilians who have lost the protection granted to civilians "for the period of time during which they take direct part in hostile acts." The question of whether they continue to constitute a threat must be scrutinized carefully before a targeted-killing order is issued. Such an order must not be issued as an act of revenge, punishment, or deterrence, but only in prevention. The information that a civilian became a participant in hostile acts must be sufficiently well-founded. The threat must be "strong and persuasive", and the person must be party to "ongoing action that does not limit itself to concrete sporadic or one-time action." Also, targeted killing must not be engaged in when an arrest may be made without real danger to the lives of soldiers; and targeted killing should be avoided if it will lead to disproportionate collateral harm to innocent civilians.

As you can see, Bus Stop, whole sentences have been copied verbatim. There is virtually no creativity and even the (acceptable) quotes are framed identically to the original source. It boggles my mind to think that you think that this is acceptable, "relatively minor" (as you put it), and that this is a situation where there was no other way to express the content. I really don't think you are doing yourself, or Epeefleche any favours here by arguing that this is a judgement call. Multiple administrators with expertise and experience in this area have determined that there is a problem.Slp1 (talk) 02:04, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Slp1—I actually didn't say that copyright problems do not exist. More importantly Epeefleche did not say that copyright problems do not exist. As I wrote above, Epeefleche defended the article against deletion.

You say "But only 2 weeks ago, Epeefleche denied that there were any significant problems with copyright in that very article."I don't see the copyvio that is claimed as warranted deletion of this article". [62]

I don't think you are correct in your above interpretation of what Epeefleche has written. I don't read Epeefleche denying in the above quote that there are "any significant problems with copyright in that very article". He is merely arguing that copyright problems do not warrant the deletion of the "Targeted killing" article. Bus stop (talk) 03:04, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Bus stop, you need to stop this obfuscation. As I said, it doesn't do you (or Epeefleche) any favours, because despite what you and Epeefleche have claimed, the article Targeted killing and Epeefleche's edits did indeed warrant deletion. Or at least User:Moonriddengirl, who has lots of experience and expertise in this area, thought so.[63]. Do you want to contest Moonriddengirl's actions? If so, let me know, and I will help you figure out where and how you can contest this. --Slp1 (talk) 03:27, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Slp1—please don't jump to conclusions and claim that I am obfuscating when I don't believe that I am. Bus stop (talk) 04:57, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Bus stop I wrote out a reply here but as it is longer than I expected this is deeply intended I am moving it down. But it will have the same time stamp as this edit -- PBS (talk) 08:50, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at discussion above and the web pages, I see it was far more than inadvertent. I am sure people POV pushing to get as much anti-Muslim (or perhaps pro-states that are anti-Muslim) material into Wikipedia find it easier to cut and paste from the hundreds (or thousands) of anti-Muslim websites out there chock full of such articles. Targeted killing being one example; others probably just not discovered in various Israel-Palestine related article where I've run into Epeefleche before. Under WP:ARBPIA Epeefleche could be banned from editing in any articles regarding Israel-Palestine-Muslims-Jews if further evidence of his doing copyvio was found in any relevant articles. If he was banned, I'm sure he'd find it easier to control himself on sports articles. I hope that whoever is reviewing his case is considering this as an option. As an advocate I am interested in seeing advocates learn to be "Wikipedia first" editors who avoid even minor POV/WP:RS issues. And this goes way beyond that. CarolMooreDC 18:56, 8 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

CarolMooreDC—I think you are unnecessarily politicizing this discussion. The relevant questions involve the willingness of the editor concerned to work with even those editors who may hold contrasting political points of view. I think he has stated that unquestioningly. He has stated not only apologies to those that have deemed his edits to be copyright violations but he has stated a commitment to refrain from a repeat of the same and to help with the clearing up of remaining copyright violations. Why is he being sidelined from participation in remediation that he has offered to provide at for instance the Targeted killing article? Bus stop (talk) 19:24, 8 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not an admin or participant in that page and can't answer that. I'm just making a general statement that copyvio could or seems to be be a way of POV pushing that I was not familiar with but will keep my eye on for in the future. (And in some articles that the two of us happened to have edited in the past.) CarolMooreDC 05:13, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Bus stop the problem is this Epeefleche wrote "I don't see the copyvio that is claimed as warranted deletion of this article" (and much else like that). If (s)he were not obfuscating, and publicly recognising that (s)he was still breaking copyright policy as late as September last year, (s)he would not have put the word "claimed" in there, because if one accepts the evidence then the sentence would read "I don't see the copyvio(s) [in the article] as warranting deletion of this all of the article".

Even in his/her latest posting in this thread, while there is an acknowledgement of "some of my earliest entries ... [mumble 4.5 years ago] ... were not appropriate", there is still equivocation (as it may be that some edits last month were still "not appropriate"). Epeefleche has yet to answer the simple questions:

1. When did you become familiar with the Wikipedia rules (or US law) on copyright violation?
2. When was the last time, that you contributed text to this project that broke Wikipedia copyright policy/(and US law)?

We know that as recently as 30 September 2010 (s)he when (s)he created the article targeted killing (s)he was was still breaking Wikipedia copyright policy in articles on this site, and before we can go forward, we need to know when it stopped. (S)he is not helping other editors or herself/himself by fudging an answer to these questions. If Epeefleche has had an epiphany, then (s)he should be willing to stop fudging and give clear precise answers. -- PBS (talk) 08:50, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You don't think you are being a little too demanding? Must he answer those questions? Hasn't Epeeflech copiously expressed the willingness to move forward violation-free? Haven't his remarks all been conciliatory? Hasn't he offered to help with the remediation of any copyright violations which he has made? Were there no promises to clean up past copyright violations then I could understand your taking a different tack in the form of your questions posed. But given the already-provided assurances that past copyright violations will be cleared up, I think your questions seem out of place. I don't think we should be grilling someone with questions as those you pose above. Bus stop (talk) 11:24, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I’ve carefully reviewed this thread and ancillary issues pertaining to it. I have come to the following conclusions.

Epeefleche’s old copyviolations should be and are in fact being deleted. He apologized for his lapses. He reiterated that he does not intend to be disruptive. The community should give him the benefit of the doubt and Assume Good Faith. AGF is not merely an empty slogan and it should be applied here where the user has expressed genuine contrition for his actions.

Others on this thread have correctly pointed out that his recent text entries do not have those problems.

He has been blocked for over two weeks now and under the totality of circumstances an unblock now seems to be the appropriate way to conclude this matter. I am certain that the events that gave rise to this unfortunate affair will not be repeated.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 17:58, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Just one more observation. An editor's quality can be measured in part by peer recognition. Epeefleche has done some exceptional work on Wikipedia and the barnstars he's collected for various accomplishments from his fellow editors stand as testament to the quality of his contributions to Wikipedia. I think that should count for something and should act as a mitigating factor.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 18:59, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

@Bus stop. If I am being a little too demanding then from what Epeefleche has written about this issue, can you answer after what date did Epeefleche stop committing copyright violations?

The survey only goes up until the time it was initially run (7/Jan/11). Can you tell from anything that Epeefleche has written on the talk pages, that there are no copyright violations in Epeefleche's contributions for the rest of this year? The thing is that most people will assume good faith and if (s)he says there are no copyright violations this year, then it will be accepted. But without such a statement how do we know there are not more of the same? After all, clear violations were present in material as late as 30 September 2010, so how do we know, without a statement from Epeefleche or a further systematic sweep, that text added this year is clean? -- PBS (talk) 08:41, 10 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have been involved in contentious discussions where Epeefleche has impressed me with the cogency of his discourse. I am also often impressed with his industrious efforts as an editor. I find an indefinite block to be somewhat excessive and feel that in all probability the editor and wikipedia would be better served with a finite block and a limited range block. There are certainly areas that the editor could continue to be productive in without getting into the same area where he has gotten in to the trouble at issue here.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 01:22, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Tony, that was one of the proposals on the table last time. :) It took me a few minutes to find the ANI thread; I think it's fallen into this weird bug that truncates searches on a page that is too large. It's here. I think at this point that an unblock would be fairly uncontroversial if Epeefleche would agree to the topic ban and just steer clear of the CCI and people who work it. I'd be happy to trot it back by ANI. Maybe this time the discussion will go more smoothly and not derail so that we can wind up with a consensus for how to move forward out of this limbo. Unfortunately, I have to agree with several who commented at the last ANI that some of Epeefleche's well-wishers wound up doing substantial damage instead of helping him out. :/ I'm sure they meant well, but distracting the conversation with 11th hour challenges of whether a problem existed at all (where clear consensus based on the evidence found that it did) only stopped talk of unblocking altogether. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 12:14, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

PBS—you refer to a "systematic sweep".[64] I think that you should ask Epeefleche if he would be agreeable to checking all his edits for 2011. I think that could be done in private by Epeefleche. You express a valid concern but I think that all that is needed is a statement of intention from Epeefleche to thoroughly review all of his edits for 2011 to see if there are any other copyright violations and to correct them if any are found. Bus stop (talk) 15:17, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The last systematic sweep on Epeefleche's work was done on the 7/Jan/2011, his/her permission was not required. If you think my concerns are valid then why do you think it unnecessary for Epeefleche to answer the two questions most recent I put to her/him? -- PBS (talk) 20:36, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not looking back to see what the two questions are, but anybody can do a sweep. I've run the list from February to the current day ([65]; that link is not permanent but will last a few days). New articles are marked N. I've spent about 45 minutes doing spot checks into new articles and I have not found any issues or really seen any major red flags. Of course, that doesn't mean there aren't any, but from everything I've seen, Epeefleche is on top of the issue now. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 12:14, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

After reviewing the discussion, it appears that the obvious violations were in old articles, not new ones, and that Epeefleche has pledged not to disrupt CCI again. Based on this statement, unless something new comes to light in the next couple of hours, I plan to unblock. Jayjg ^(talk) 19:42, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

On what conditions will you unblock? Will you impose the topic ban for which there was consensus at ANI? --Mkativerata (talk) 19:46, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

On the conditions that he stay away from WP:CCI, and, as Jehochman put it, "be banned from complaining about any editors cleaning up his copyvio messes or otherwise obstructing their work". Jayjg ^(talk) 20:18, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good to me. While I can only speak for myself, I'm fine with an unblock on those conditions. --Mkativerata (talk) 20:26, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for being the voice of reason here, Jayjg. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 20:28, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

While one can expect Jayjg to be reasonable, personally I wouldn't insult the other interested parties by suggesting that he is the voice of reason here. causa sui (talk) 20:57, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies to other editors who have contributed here. My point was simply that I feel Epeefleche has been blocked long enough. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 21:05, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

O.K., I will unblock Epeefleche based on the statements above. Epeefleche, as a condition of unblocking, please stay away from WP:CCI, and please do not complain about or hinder the efforts of editors who are attempting to ameliorate any perceived copyvio issues with articles you have created or material you have added. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:17, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Welcome back, Epee.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 01:55, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks from me and the wiki Victuallers (talk) 08:04, 23 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Orlady (talk) 06:15, 27 November 2011 (UTC) 10:54, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Just some friendly advice, but I think its pointless arguing with Kiftaan about Sunni percentages. This guy insists there are only two sects in a homogeneous islam, despite articles such as Islamic sects proving him wrong. I've tried, but debating him is circular. You just end up repeeating the same thing over and over but it does not enter his brain. Pass a Method talk 18:47, 16 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

OffToRioRob a.k.a. YouReallyCan left a late-hit snide remark on my talk page after he and another editor tag-teamed at Demi Moore. This, after one snide, childish remark after another. Ah, well — at some point Wikipedia will mature and we'll have to have credentials and our real names to edit here, and things will be better. With regards, Tenebrae (talk) 06:06, 18 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I asked for temporary semi-protection of that vandal's target page, and they've granted it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:29, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Brilliant. Am embarrassed that I didn't think of that myself. Hopefully, he won't (continue to) engage in questionable edits on other articles, as he did yesterday. Thanks. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:32, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There's more than one way to skin a troll. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:37, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes you're right about it. I too wondered if there might not be another page, but I had to leave the computer before I could follow it up. Article deleted. fwiw, the deWP page is probably a copyvio also. Does your unified password work there? I cant recover the password I used for it. DGG ( talk ) 02:08, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks ... I'm glad we successfully addressed our difference in views. As to the "deWP" page ... apologies, but I'm not sure what that is.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:36, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Dear esteemed Epeefleche,

I humbly seek clarification concerning the email I received from MediaWiki Mail on Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 1:48 PM, entitled "Wikipedia page User talk:Bluesguy62 has been created by Epeefleche." The email informed me that "The Wikipedia page "User talk:Bluesguy62" has been created on 22 December 2011 by Epeefleche, with the edit summary: Notification: speedy deletion nomination of Sekolah Kebangsaan Bukit Sekilau. (TW)"

Further details concerning the issue are as follows: 20:23, 22 December 2011 Fastily (talk | contribs) deleted "Sekolah Kebangsaan Bukit Sekilau" ‎ (G12: Unambiguous copyright infringement of )

At this juncture, allow me to clarify that the official website of the school at <http://skbs.freehostia.com/> was deleted by Freehostia in May 2010 after two successive successful hacking attempts; because (according to Freehostia) the website posed a security risk to other users of their free webhosting service.

Next, with regard to the deleted article and website, allow me to confirm that I, Abdul Aziz Sanford (bluesguy62@gmail.com) am the webmaster and sole copyright owner of all materials contained within; as well as a teacher at the school since 2004. All the text is my own composition, and all images were either scanned by me from old photographs/documents or captured by the school's photographers or yours truly.

I may be contacted by email <bluesguy62@gmail.com>, my cellphone 012-9855262 or the following mailing address: Abdul Aziz Sanford, Sekolah Kebangsaan Bukit Sekilau, 25200 Kuantan, Pahang, Malaysia.

Kindly also allow me to share the fact that my exact text has been reproduced without my permission on websites such as: (1) <http://www.thefullwiki.org/Sekolah_Kebangsaan_Bukit_Sekilau>, (2) <http://www.facebook.com/pages/Sekolah-Kebangsaan-Bukit-Sekilau-Kuantan/327828849169?sk=info>, (3) <http://www.facebook.com/pages/Sekolah-Kebangsaan-Bukit-Sekilau/139262229434679> and (4) <http://wn.com/Sekolah_Kebangsaan_Bukit_Sekilau>.

Last but not least, I do declare that the sole intention of creating the Wikipedia page in question was to share information about the school with the world, and nothing else. It took me one year to gather the needed materials. I thank you for reading this humble submission. God bless and take care.

Yours humbly, Abdul Aziz Sanford @ bluesguy62Bluesguy62 (talk) 21:46, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, friend. I am not an admin, but you may wish to contact User:Fastily, who is the admin who addressed the apparent copyvio issue. As to the photos, from your description it is possible that you do not have a copyright interest of photos that you did not take yourself (but just scanned, etc.), but I would not know the answer without knowing more. Best of luck.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:56, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Epeefleche: Thank you for the advice. It is much appreciated. bluesguy62Bluesguy62 (talk) 16:02, 14 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

At the last AFD I proposed that article issues could be addressed procatively, but did not do it myself at that time. I am so glad that being an asmin allowed me the ability to look at the copyvio-deleted versions so I could better understand how it could be best addressed... a total rewrite based upon the one remaining sentence. And in the year since the last AFD, just enough new sources were available (un-found by the nominator) to allow a better article. And too, I disagree with the nominator's insinuation that the notable BAFTA Scotland is both non-notable and somehow not a part of BAFTA... making that organization's recognizing and encouraging New Talent as dismissable. The mop is a handy thing to have. :) Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 21:29, 25 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

DYK?

With its 35x expansion, wanna help determine a decent DYK? Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 21:30, 25 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Rather than take so many primary/elementary schools to AfD, under the principles of WP:BRD it would be much better if you dealt with them directly i.e. delete the content and merge/redirect to the appropriate school district or community. If anyone objects to a particular article being dealt with in this way then revert it (assuming they didn't) and take it to AfD instead. If you do redirect then remember to leave {{Redirect from school}} on the page. --Bob Re-born (talk) 09:04, 25 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I gave your suggestion some thought. I prefer to not be so bold as to redirect these articles, as at times some editors have questioned the general premise that such schools should be deleted. Out of respect to them, and since they may follow afd pages but not the individual articles, in general I think it better to allow them the transparency of an afd.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:21, 25 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have to congratulate you on this superb AfD rationale. It brightened my day. A little latin makes things look so much classier. ;-) bobrayner (talk) 13:53, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I tried to think of a classy Latin rejoinder, but failed.  ;) --Epeefleche (talk) 22:16, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I was wondering if you were intending to nominate the other schools in Category:Primary schools in Surrey in addition to the 2 you've already done? Fmph (talk) 21:22, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

They are certainly worth looking at, with that in mind. But I'm giving the schools a chance to breathe, as I noticed that some of the school AfDs don't have any !votes as of yet, and don't want to overload the community. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:2 5, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Not sure what selection criteria you are using? Random? ;-) Fmph (talk) 02:07, 30 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Whatever a search of primary schools reflects, with a focus on those that are unreferenced or lack historical aspects or architectural aspects or were tagged for notability or lack of refs, etc, and holding off some if they prompt greater controversy until it is addressed (eg, Ofsted reports). But as to the ones you question, most are appropriate for a nom, I think, once the controversy on Ofsted reports has been addressed, and the community has had a chance to !vote on the others so as not -- as I indicated above -- to overload them. There was at least one that I might not myself nom, given its historical significance, but others might.--Epeefleche (talk) 15:21, 30 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

All primary schools

If I may make a suggestion: why not simply blank and redirect obviously non notable primary schools as most editors and admins (who are aware of the precedent) do anyway according to the rationale I keep putting on all the 100s of sudden AfDs that are turning up this week? It's an uncontroversial operation and a totally accepted procedure even if it's not written in policy. If the creator complains, it can easily be reverted and then sent to AfD. Boldly redirecting would save all the unnecessary bureaucracy, and me and other editors the time having to paste 'Redirect' votes, and another admins having to close all the AfDs - we have huge backlogs of far more complex AfD to cope with that sometimes take an hour or more to resolve.. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 11:45, 30 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I prefer to not be so bold as to redirect these articles, as at times some editors have questioned the general premise that such schools should be deleted. Out of respect to them, and since they may follow afd pages but not the individual articles, in general I think it better to allow them the transparency of an afd. Also, as you suggest, not all editors are aware of or agree with the precedent (one vociferous senior editor in particular markedly disagrees with it), and there have been some discussions (e.g., as to 10th grade schools) where some editors have asserted a consensus but not pointed to where such consensus exists when the request was made. We would benefit from a bright-line rule in our org notability standard, reflecting what people think is the agree-upon view as to schools below high schools (or below 10th-grade schools, if that is the consensus). Even then, as schools which special attributes -- e.g., historical, architectural, etc, will be treated differently, there will be areas of gray. Finally, while you and I have agreed on the vast majority of recent AfDs, even we have disagreed at times, and I would rather have the oversight of editors like you to confirm my view than act unilaterally. AFD insures that, while the other approach does not. Perhaps that is why we do not have unilateral deletion even for completely clear copyvios, or advertising, or the like. One thought though -- is there a way to, for example, nominate for afd all articles in a category (or all except "x")? That would streamline the process.--Epeefleche (talk) 15:21, 30 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• The process for group nominations is described at WP:BUNDLE. It shouldn't come to that though, as it seems that all of these nominations should not have got through WP:BEFORE which urges editors to "... consider merging or redirecting to an existing article." The result of this nonsense is that Wikipedia is accumulating large numbers of pages about these schools but that these pages are disruptive deletion discussions rather than productive content. It is a sad waste of everyone's time. Warden (talk) 15:57, 30 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Epeefleche, you don't think we should have the articles. Warden does not think we should have the articles. Kudpung does not think we should have the articles. I do not think we should have the articles. In fact, almost everyone at WP agrees that we should not have these articles. The question is then what is the best way to remove them. The easiest and fastest and least controversial way is to redirectmerge preferred & possible, a/c WP:BEFORE -- better than deletion. Deletion tag removed. to the district or town or whatever may be the most appropriate administrative unit, You wouldn't be excessively bold to do so, you would be acting reasonably and responsibly in full accord with consensus. It is possible that someone may revert some of the redirects; the solution is then to use WP:PM. or conceivably WP:AFD on those that are restored--the outcome will almost always be that your redirect/merge is confirmed; if it happens often, it will have become clear that whoever is reverting them is acting against consensus,and we can deal with it. Why force an argument first, when it almost always will not be needed? It makes it look as if you'd rather argue than deal with the situation directly DGG ( talk ) 03:23, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• DGG, as you without question are aware, having participated in some of the AfDs at which I've observed this input, there are editors with different views. As you are also well aware, if it were so clear, you could speedily close any primary school AfD. I've never seen you do so, on any such AfD. Nor have I seen any other such AfD closed that way by anyone else. Furthermore, the best way for you to address this, as you also know, if such clear consensus exists is to have it reflected in a notability rule for schools. An essay is just an essay - you are well aware of how limited it is in effect in comparison to a policy. You may have an appetite for being bold here -- I've considered your suggestion in the past as you know, and responded to you in the past (sometimes without any response whatsoever by you). As you also know, you yourself have !voted keep when I thought we should not have such an article. As has Warden. As have various others. At least one, in a majority I believe of such AfDs as which he has !voted. Given the level of conflict I've seen here by some editors involved in this process, having considered your suggestion I don't see it as the appropriate approach for me to take. I don't wish to redirect such articles, only to have another editor who doesn't share your view attack me for it.

As to whether a redirect is better than a delete -- while I generally don't have a problem with a redirect, I fail to see why it would be the case that it would be "better," and nobody has articulated a persuasive reason. Many of the redirects are to pages that just ... in terms of pertinent information ... state the name of the school that the person was looking up. Zero further information on the school. Why that is particularly helpful to the reader remains a mystery, when they are clearly looking up information about the school -- not seeking to have communicated back to them the search term they typed in. Alongside, perhaps, other schools as to which they are not searching for information.

You feel I would not be excessively bold to do so. But they again, others in general don't always agree with you. If such action were as you say -- and I do feel you exaggerate here, which would only make your point stronger to those who are unfamiliar with the facts -- "in full accord with consensus" -- then I wouldn't face the disagreements that I've faced at AfDs by you and by others. One of whom has since hounded me around the Project.

If you wish, I can provide you or anyone else a list of primary schools I think should be deleted or redirected, and you (or someone else) can be so bold as to take such action. For me to follow your advice, it strikes me, would be suspect, as your suggestions as to such behavior being "in full accord with consensus" seems unsupported by the facts. I've considered your suggestion -- for a long time now, as you obviously are aware -- and have reasonable reasons not to follow it, which I've explained to you over and over.

Furthermore, as I've suggested to you over a year ago, if consensus is so clear then please put forth a suggested notability rule, and I will be happy to participate in discussing and adopting some form of it. You've not seemed to thing that you could muster sufficient support for such a rule, however, which has left us in the current situation.--Epeefleche (talk) 15:13, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Must you really drill me multiple AFD warnings? Kindly give me the links to the AFD pages afterwards. Thankyou.♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:17, 31 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I nominated 1 article you created for AFD, and am required to notify you of the AFD. The link to the AFD is enclosed in the notification. I also nominated 1 article you created for speedy deletion, and as I am required to I notified you of that. The information you need is at that article page, which is linked to in the notification. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:23, 31 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Remove the speedy tag of Absheron Hotel please, pretty sure its a notable skyscraper in Baku.♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:25, 31 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It has been moved. Unless I am incorrect, it appears that both articles that raised notability issues and lacked refs have now been redirected.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:41, 31 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep is for the article as it is merged into one about the company. I would withdraw the nomination if I was you, the article on the company won't be deleted.♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:09, 1 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I commented at the AfD. The AfD relates to whether the article you merged into another article warrants a stand-alone-article, and is not a !vote on the article into which you merged it. Thanks.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:54, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

One of the fundamental flaws in the management of Wikipedia is the very mantra that it's 'the encyclopedia anyone can edit'. Personally, I think that is a wonderful founding philosophy and it's what has made it the world's largest online knowledge base. However, it needs controls, so unfortunately it has policies and guidelines, and admins to enforce or implement them. Hence the next flaw is that anyone can vote in sensitive areas such as AfD or RfA. This occasionally results in the paradox that you have illustrated: The majority vote by tally is achieved by the people who turn up to vote, and that the apparent consensus, due to their ignorance of existing policies, guidelines, or precedent, or due to not wanting to recognise those rules, guidelines, or precedents, is in conflict with an existing policy or precedent.To quote TerriersFan:

Firstly, it is predicated on a misapprehension; no-one claims that high schools are 'inherently notable' just that they should be kept on pragmatic grounds, as are designated settlements, fauna and flora, named bridges, numbered highways, airports, super-regional malls, railway stations, high court judges, peers of the realm, religious saints etc. When there is so much work to do on Wikipedia the thought of fighting 50,000 high school articles only to prove that most of them are notable makes me shiver! We have had several attempted standards on schools (and if we are to try again why not include all schools?) and they have all failed in the face of the determined opposition of a minority of editors. What we have is a pragmatic position (redirect most elementary schools (except those clearly notable) and keep high schools (except those that can't be verified)) which allows us to move on to more urgent stuff.

So what is a closing admin to do? --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 00:37, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Some astute points. I agree with all you say as to the fact that we can have mismatches between broad consensus, and consensus at any particular AfD. The problem is especially prevalent I expect: a) when there are few editors who !vote at a particular AfD, and b) in some contentious areas. At the same time, we do tend to recognize that consensus can change, and have mantras such as IAR ... which editors seem to invoke simply when they dislike some rule. One way we address this problem is by editors at an AFD addressing any ignorance of existing policies, guidelines, or precedent by supplying an inline link to the policy or guideline -- or the discussion that reflects the precedent, if one exists. That allows a closing admin to adhere to the more policy-based and guideline-based approach, I expect, though if there are a number of !voters and what is "pointed to" is not a guideline but rather something looser and less clearly articulated, I expect a closer might give it less weight. In any event, I think the best course if a consensus exists in precedent but not in a guideline is to supply the community with greater clarity by writing it into the guideline. I think that the consensus as to schools would benefit greatly if it were articulate in the guideline itself.

I would be happy to work with you (and the rest of the community) at fashioning something that the community could !vote on, for addition to the notability guideline. I have a sense that broadly speaking the community believes that in schools through grade 9, absent special historical or architectural information, we do not keep an article on the school as a standalone (but rather either redirect/delete/or merge it). My sense, though I know some editors such as you have a different view, is that generally this is the approach for schools through only grade 10 and 11 as well. And that for high schools (through grade 12) and above, we keep the articles presumptively -- as long as there is RS support for its existence. Do you think that the aforesaid might have in it the kernel of something that could be improved (first by you, and then perhaps by some of the other regulars at school AfDs and others with interest?) and turned into a draft guideline addition to our notability standard that could be !voted on the community? A guideline would have more clarity than the varying statements we've seen at AfDs as to what precedents are, and (whatever it is) would allow a closer to more confidently close such AfDs in accordance with the consensus as articulated in a guideline ... rather than taking your or my word as to what the precedence shows, and how clearly it reflects consensus opinion.--Epeefleche (talk) 05:40, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Probably nobody is more aware of the paradox surrounding school notabily than TerriesFan, CT Cooper, Tedder, and myself as we have basically been the driving force behind the WP:WPSCH project for a long time and we are all admins and hence are supposed to have some clue on policy. However, we are in a quandry. Alone today, two near identical school AfDs have been closed with opposite results just on the fact that different people turned up to vote. Closers can only really take into account the local consensus, whatever policy or precedent says - What would happen for example if the consensus was to delete Barack Obama; can an admin legitimately say "I'm closing this as 'keep' because you're all wrong" ? The unwritten consensus for schools is very clearly established in precedent and is: non notable primary and middle schools (grades 1-8) get redirected, and secondary schools (generally grade 7/8 - 12/13 or grade 10 where they don't have a 6th form but teach to school leaving age, such as GCSE 'O' level) get kept if they are proven to exist. This precedent exists mainly to avoid the unnecessary bureaucracy of sending every single school through AfD and making them GNG compliant. Let's face it, any school is more notable than some 17 year old who has played one game as a reserve in an obscure football league but who gets procedurally kept on a simple name listing on some soccer site, or some 6 month old baby who was used as a prop on the set of Coronation St. and is listed in the cast at IMDB, or an X-factor kid who made the semi final and never got a record contract. Personally I don't care what the criteria are for schools, but I would like some firm ruling either way because as an admin it leaves me completely frustrated. The problem however, is that every single discussion to get some ruling laid down is a WP:PEREN and has either ended with no consesnsus or just simply died out as has the most recent attempt at WT:WPSCH before anyone could even agree on a proposal statement.. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 11:49, 3 January 2012 (UTC).[reply]

A number of issues there.

1. Schools are not listed on WP:PEREN. maybe they should be, but for now they are not.
2. The 'unwritten consensus' that you quote can and has changed, as far as I can see. But there is very good reason for the change. The idea behind merge and redirect is that the encyclopaedic matter from the source articles should be moved to the merge target. Unfortunately with most of the current crop under Afd, there is no encyclopaedic content to be merged. Whether a school has 357 pupils or 380 is not encyclopaedic. For a start, these numbers are time-dependent. They are a census count of a spanshot in time. They may be used to pad out an otherwise notable article, but are not suitable for inclusion in a locale#Education section. So all that generally happens would be the addition of a redirect from merge. So what? Why is that of any benefit to the reader or paedia. IMHO, it's a waste of space and only encourages those who wish to create unreferenced stub after stub and give the project a generally bad name.
3. If it is proving impossible to achieve consensus on a notability guideline, then maybe the regulars need to take some the blame for this. Perhaps the current crop of dogmatic standpoints need to be wiped away and a new, and different, consensus found. For instance, instead of trying to pass a huge big all-encompassing guideline, why not try a short snappy one that only covers the areas where there is agreement?

Just a thought .... Fmph (talk) 14:56, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• AFD is an inefficient system and seems quite moribund now that the participation is derisory. The idea of pure Wiki deletion seems better. Now that revision deletion is available to admins to handle the serious cases of copyright violation and defamation, PWD should be reconsidered for all the other stuff which isn't suitable for speedy deletion. Warden (talk) 12:38, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  PWD was badly needed when participation was high. Now that it isn't, the need is critical. causa sui (talk) 21:13, 4 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• I have seen several promising notability guideline proposals [66], [67] shot down as "failed" because some editors objected to what several editors had developed, with them (edited to add: the guidelines, not the editors) being tagged as "failed" or as "essay." A different crew of editors show up at proposed guidelines from the cadre who watch AFDs, so established practice/common outcomes/consensus at AFD is hard to make into a guideline. It seems easier to add a criterion or sentence to an existing guideline than to get a new guideline accepted. One of the rejected notability proposals mentioned above, Wikipedia:News articles, may have led to Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#2.9 Wikipedia is not a newspaper. A bold (but carefully crafted) addition to WP:ORG for high schools versus primary schools might prompt some discussion on the talk page of that guideline, leading to a sensible compromise criterion which would implement the presumption of notability for verified schools going through grade 12, and redirect for schools through grade 8. The devil is in the details: Is the presumption of notability granted to schools which only educate to grade 10, when that is the highest level people in some country typically get? What about junior highs educating to grade 9? What about 19th century US grade schools, when that was commonly the highest grade of education completed for 95% of the students, per Secondary education in the United States? Re=reading WP:ORG it is pretty hardline deletionist, with the stipulations of "no inherent notability," the general "multiple reliable independent secondary sources with significant coverage," and the killer: "On the other hand, attention solely from local media, or media of limited interest and circulation, is not an indication of notability; at least one regional, national, or international source is necessary." If a school is a "noncommercial organization," then a requirement is "The scope of their activities is national or international in scale." (This would lead to stretches such as "the school choir toured Spain last year, and there are exchange students from various countries.") How can any assertions "All schools are notable" or "This grade school won the Good School award given to only 5% of the schools" get past the strict requirements of WP:ORG cited by some editor when an admin goes to close the AFD? The question is not "Why are most grade schools/middle schools merged or deleted," but "How do many high schools survive AFD?" Edison (talk) 21:16, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Your recent posting on my talk page seems uncivil, appearing contrary to WP:HARASS and WP:DTTR. For example, advising me about creation of my first article is redundant and demonstrates that you are not reading what is posted in your name. CSD A7 has a very low threshhold and that topic passed it easily in my opinion. For more details, please see this survey which advises that "As a general rule of thumb, if there are references, then the article probably is not deletable via A7.". So it proved in that case, but I expanded the article to make sure. This was personally inconvenient and that's the trouble with speedy deletion - it does not provide any time for a response and so is discourteous. Please see WP:WIHSD for more advice, if you are new to this activity. Warden (talk) 14:09, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't feel that way. There is nothing personal -- I didn't even know that you were the creator of the article until the automated system gave the standard automated notice to you, which is crafted it would appear with civility in mind. To my eye, there was no claim to notability in the article. It is easy to create an article on something that exists with refs, but in my experience not everything that exists meets our notability standards. For that reason, simply having a ref does not confer notability status on an article that otherwise appears to not demonstrate that its subject meets our notability standards. Apologies if your feelings were hurt -- that is certainly not intended. --Epeefleche (talk) 18:15, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

[Pardon me for butting in...] Well, the Colonel is certainly right in some aspects, though harassment should be judged by intent as well, and I'll take Epee at their word that such was not the intent. Colonel, I absolutely agree that the automatic templating sometimes causes such notices on the pages of seasoned editors. Colonel, you also know, of course, that Epee is not new to the process--certainly you have crossed swords before. Epee, maybe it's a good idea, next time you nominate one of the Colonel's articles, to manually adjust or even remove the template; it's a courtesy that they deserve, IMO. As for the Colonel's comment on what is generally deemed speediable, I think I have to agree with them: with a couple of references in this version, including one from Billboard, it's pretty likely that the CSD nomination will be rejected--I personally would not delete it, since believable claims to notability are made, besides it having references. Best to both, Drmies (talk) 18:00, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, since an editor has voted "keep", I guess SNOW is out. What I've decided to do is AfD the larger articles; and just BOLD merge/redirect the stubs, as no consensus is needed for a merger and there's already a consensus for those type of edits Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 21:51, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think that all primary schools and elementary schools and junior high schools, absent material unusually notable circumstances, should (per what I am told, and see, is convention) have their stand-alone article text deleted. There are some editors, however, who I understand disagree, and think they should in general be kept. Or whose criteria for keeping the articles is much lower than that of the rest of the community -- so low, in fact, that the vast majority of English primary schools would be kept as stand-alone articles. Given that, I've personally not been inclined to take bold action in this regard, but preferred to let the community speak, though some editors have suggested precisely the bold action you are taking.

If the stand-alone text of the article is in fact deleted at AfD, I've seen varying close outcomes -- split between redirect, delete, and (less frequently) merge. Absent consensus on that in !votes and in closes, I personally am hesitant to make that choice myself. But I'm just speaking for myself, and recognize that some editors are bolder.

My understanding is that all high schools and above are, by convention, to be considered "keeps", with the exception being if there is a lack of RS evidence of their existence.

As to schools that end in grade 10 or grade 11, I had thought that they were treated in consistent fashion with primary/elementary/jr. high schools. But there seems to be a lack of consensus among editors on this point, and some think that they should be treated as high schools. Some think that that depends -- in some countries treat them as high schools, and in some as lower schools.

As to defunct schools, I was under the impression that their inactive status does not impact our determination, but at least one editor opined (and !voted) otherwise.

I think that the process could be streamlined if we were to have a notability guideline reflecting consensus as to the above. Some editors are unfamiliar with convention, some may mis-state it, and some may not trust other editors' assertion as to what convention is or whether it may have changed. And some statements of convention have in fact failed to reflect the on-the-ground consensus (or lack of consensus) that I've seen. Perhaps that is a reflection of the adage that "consensus can change". In any event, if we do have consensus on some of this, it would be helpful to state it in a guideline.

Also -- If there is in fact consensus during an AfD, sysops could also close such AfDs as Snow closes, which would streamline the process.

My main concern here is that we should have a common, consistent approach. Whether it is that we redirect such articles, or delete such articles, or merge such articles is less important to me that that we generally, if this is indeed the consensus, delete the article as a stand-alone. A secondary consideration is what we do not -- and we can determine that the result should be delete, or merge, or redirect either by following some yet-to-be-written guideline (preferred) or, in the absence of consensus/guideline, at the AfDs as we do today. In any case, a guideline can only help.

Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 03:58, 7 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'll never get a SNOW close, as another editor always votes the "all schools are notable" ticket to get my goat. And proposing "only high schools are notable" will lead to a big bucket of syrup with him. I don't think we'll be able to get the hard-and-fast consensus on it at this time, because things are looking keepist in general at the moment. The outcome 90%+ percent of the time is redirect to a higher-level article, which is why I think a BOLD redirection, particularly of the smaller or unsourced articles, is the way to go. If someone doesn't like it, then AfD it, but I've done that 4-5 times now and never been challenged Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 18:46, 7 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Hello. I noticed that you edited the List of Turkish architects article. I have two questions that I'd like to discuss:

- I noticed that all the additions that were made by various users have been reverted. Some of the very important Turkish architects were deleted from the list. I believe the reason you did this change is because none of these articles were created in English Wikipedia otherwise they'd be on the list. Am I right? Otherwise for instance Sedad Hakkı Eldem is undoubtedly one of the most important Turkish architects of its time.

- Also I believe what each architect designed should not be a part of this article. If you look at the other countries, they only listed the name of the architects only. Therefore I deleted the building names. Thank you. Mimar77 (talk) 22:44, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Hi Mmar. As I mentioned in the edit summary, I deleted entries which lacked both wp articles (i.e., redlinks) and appropriate independent RS refs, per WP:LISTPEOPLE which indicates that one or the other should exist (some people actually read it as requiring multiple refs, if no article exists. Some editors do accept links to other wikipedias -- while others do not, saying that they do not necessarily have the same notability requirements. None of these had such links, however, and personally I take the more liberal approach myself here, and do not delete such entries (though I don't challenge others who do). You should feel to re-add such names if they either a) have a wp article you can link to on english wp (to be safe), or have appropriate refs. You can find discussions of those approaches on talkpages. As to what each architect designed, I agree that it is unusual to list the building names, but as I am not aware of a prohibition against it I did not myself delete those names.--Epeefleche (talk) 23:24, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Thank you for the explanation. I will either create english wp articles for the architects that I believe are notable. Or I will add them to the list with redlinks with appropriate references. Mimar77 (talk) 22:49, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

For shits and giggles, see the latest contribution. Drmies (talk) 17:52, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(talk page stalker) :) Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 18:11, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Would you like an ANI about your iinsidious suggestions - and a few other things to boot? Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 08:55, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've just read your first diff -- you are joking, right? And forgot to put a smiley face at the end of you sentence?

Did you really think that that was anything other than a joke? If so, how is that possible?

First of all -- what could the COI possibly be? Oh was seeking deletion of a school that had the name Confucius in it. People with real COI seek to create non-notable articles about themselves or something they are connected to. Not delete them. That's pretty obvious, no?

Plus, As you can tell from the top of this page, Oh has corresponded with me for years.

Plus, and most importantly -- in case anyone somehow didn't get it, there was a smiley face at the end of the joke. That means, in common parlance, the same as "jk, jk, jk", and "LOL", and "the aforesaid is a joke". I'm completely thunderstruck, Kud. --Epeefleche (talk) 09:04, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Mea culpa. Severe oversight on my part! --Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 09:14, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Logical conclusion I'm afraid - everyone here knows I live practically just round the corner from KK uni (I also used to teach there). Perhaps you should make it clear whom you are addressing, and for safety's sake keep the chat off serious discussions ;) Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 11:19, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• But I did think I made it clear whom I was addressing. I addressed my comment to Oh.

Plus, the comment clearly related to a similarity between Oh's username and the name of the subject of the article. There is certainly a similarity between the names "OhConfucius" and "Confucius Institute at Khon Kaen University" -- but no such similarity at all between the name "Kudpung" and the name of the institute.

And I certainly have no idea what corner you live on. And apart from the other points made above, I added a smiley face (as you just did, just now). I remain thunderstruck.--Epeefleche (talk) 17:06, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• I guess it's true what someone once told me: across the internet, many cues are absent (visual and tonal, etc.). Add to that, the cultural aspect, and results can become unpredictable and misunderstandings can potentially crop up anywhere. I'm mildly tickled by this episode, and I hope you all can be too. --Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 07:30, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

oh 1 |ō|

exclamation

used to express a range of emotions including surprise, anger, disappointment, or joy, or when reacting to something that has just been said : “Oh no,” said Daisy, appalled | : Me? Oh, I'm fine | : oh, shut up. New Oxford American Dictionary

There's certainly a connection between that and the post that immediately preceded it. Oh well... Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 07:42, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Kud -- You and I both indent when we want to refer to an immediately preceding comment. That wasn't indented. So -- as usual -- my comment referred to the initial statement of the nom . (Clue 1).

And the nom was named OhConfucuius, which would explain me calling him Oh, just as I call you Kud, and as many call me Epee .(Clue 2).

And the entire content in my note is pointing out the similarities between the names of the "subject of the article" {Confucius Institute ...} and that of the nom. Well, that name isn't even mildly similar to the name "Kudpung". But is starkly similar to "OhConfucius". (Clue 3).

And you have no reason to assert -- as you did -- that I (and "everyone here"?) know what corner you live on. (Clue 4).

And the post had a smiley face at the end. (Clue 5).

I had thought that with all of these contextual clues, there might have been a small chance that perhaps upon reconsidering them you might say something along the lines of ... "whoops, I erred, apologies for missing that (we all make mistakes), and for not assuming good faith (that might have led to a more friendly message from you even if you had still missed all 5 clues), and for the above message that was based on my misunderstanding." To which I would have responded: "No worries at all, mate -- I join Oh in being mildly tickled by it, and appreciate the note, and view the matter as completely behind us."--Epeefleche (talk) 08:20, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm just an old and wrinkled conservative, cantankerous, poker-faced Pom with absolutely no sense of humour. I thought you would have known that too. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 08:34, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hahaha, Lot of Laughs, that's funny. :-} _{[Previous message is meant for Kudpung; Note: OhConfucius -- please don't misinterpret it to think that I believe that you are funny].}--Epeefleche (talk) 08:39, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand how WP:Music has any say on a reality tv show. WP:Music should stick to music. Kingjeff (talk) 04:33, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. I didn't refer to WP:Music. I referred to the music notability guideline talkpage, where the notability of contestants -- especially those who did not place in the top 3 -- in a Pop Idol-like contest was discussed. Wikipedia:Notability (music) does seem the correct church, and correct pew, as best I can tell. The guideline already speaks to when one is notable, depending on how one fairs in a major music competition. Feel free, though, to join the discussion there. Of course. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 04:43, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

But there are 4 distinctive phases. There is the auditions which is the first round, the recall which is the second round, the Top 15 (for Germany) which is the semi-final part and the Top 10 (for Germany) which is the final phase. So, he clearly qualifies under notability. Kingjeff (talk) 05:02, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'll follow up on your comment at the Notability/Music talkpage linked to above, so as not to birfurcate our conversation. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 05:25, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You might want to check for albums and singles charts. I know he has done some. I don't know if any of them have been succesful enough. Kingjeff (talk) 05:52, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Right. The reason that I only tagged the Dominik Büchele article, and did not nominate it for AfD, is because while I think he may not be notable, I am not yet decided. His article failed (by the above criteria) to demonstrate notability. But at the same time, I saw enough in my review of the coverage of him to suggest that a deeper exploration was necessary -- there may be elements of notability in his case that are not reflected in the article. As you suggest. I'll not nominate it unless I am comfortable that I've been unable to find such other indicia of notability. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 06:07, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

WP:MUSICBIO states that he "may be notable if it meets at least one of the following criteria". Point 2 states "has had a single or album on any country's national music chart". He's been on Germany national music charts. I hope this solves the problem. Kingjeff (talk) 17:14, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi King. I agree that meeting Point 2 would solve the problem.--Epeefleche (talk) 04:46, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What was the point of this edit[68]? The Cite News template enters the access date in the d Month year format. Even though I grew up with Month day, year, I don't see any good reason to take the time to hand enter the dates.--Hjal (talk) 06:27, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Then let me introduce you to ... WP:STRONGNAT.--Epeefleche (talk) 06:31, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We've already met. However, at the top of this edit box is a set of templates for citing newspapers, journals, websites and books. For the access date, the "cite news" template uses the date format preferred by the U.S. military, as follows: <ref>{{cite news|last=Lastname|first=Firstname|title=Article title|url=www.foonews.com|accessdate=17 January 2012|newspaper=Foo News|date=January 3, 1927}}</ref>. It doesn't seem to use my local time, either. Perhaps you should try to get the template changed to do something different. The template's usage guidelines say, "accessdate: Date when the news item was accessed, if it was found online. Should be in the same format as the rest of the article. Must not be wikilinked." However, the version of template that this editing form provides does not have that functionality, and I doubt that it could be easily automated.--Hjal (talk) 07:35, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Help me, here. We are in agreement as to what the guideline says. But your problem is that the template that you are using has a default to a date format that is other than the one suggested by the guideline?--Epeefleche (talk) 23:36, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, yes... But it's not just "the template that you are using," it's the template provided by whatever authority creates the article edit box. Is there a policy somewhre that clarifies whether guidelines take priority over the actual infrastructure of the project? Regardless, I'm OK with you or others going around correcting the date formats. And I don't think that I will live long enough to understand the link that you sent me.--Hjal (talk) 04:41, 18 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I see you are making many date format changes. By consulting WP:DATERET & MOS:DATEUNIFY & WP:STRONGNAT, you can see that YMD format for accessdate=s & archivedate=s is acceptable & thus should not be changed w/o consensus. There are scripts that avoid making changes to these fields.--JimWae (talk) 04:15, 29 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Another IP address originating from Italy has again removed the same well-sourced material from the Michael Henrich. Either Henrich himself is editing his article (as it's hockey season and he plays in Italy) to omit any published material that cites his lack of ability to make an NHL team, or someone who follows him around Italy is doing it. I suspect it's actually him, as all the IP addresses used since User:Casaroo was blocked originate from Ontario where he lives (the same material was removed from an IP in Toronto, Ontario and from a public library in Tiverton, Ontario in July - assuming home and while on vacation - which if that is the case is a bit disturbing IMHO). I requested that the page be semi-protected previously and was turned down - would you think that a new request is necessary? Clearly warnings do nothing to deter this user, and blocking IPs isn't helping. Semi-protection for a few months would solve the vandalism that is persistent on the article. Thoughts? --Yankees76 ^Talk 23:31, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sound idea -- though I would imagine you would be more likely to receive protection for a shorter period, at least initially. I support your thoughts -- feel free to link to here when positing your request. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 23:34, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good. Thanks! --Yankees76 ^Talk 23:35, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That article didn't see it coming. A move in 2005 then blam! Put'er down! I'm going through a backlog, would it be cool if I ask your opinion if some seem deletable? - RoyBoy 02:39, 18 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've taken out about half of Paradise Park, Cornwall, a page you tagged as a copyright violation. I think that the remaining stuff, while similar to what is on their website, passes on the safe side of WP:Close paraphrasing, so I removed the G12 rather than deleting. However, if you have time, it would be great if you could take another look at it and see if maybe I'm just missing more copyvios. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:41, 18 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Hi Q. I've looked around, and can't find an original source that would indicate that what remains is a copyvio. It may well be -- it has zero refs, and I often find that unreferenced long text is a copyvio; and it may suffer from meeting our verifiability policy, but I can't find a primary source that it is copying. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:29, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for checking. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:29, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've declined your A7 speedy deletion requests of La Molina Plaza, Istana Plaza Bandung, and Hyatt Plaza. Shopping centers are not eligible for the A7 speedy deletion criterion, as it is specifically limited to companies/organizations, among other specific categories. You are free to take them to PROD/AfD if you still believe that they should be deleted.--Slon02 (talk) 04:28, 18 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

To my knowledge, shopping centers are companies, partnerships, or some other form of organization (e.g., LLC or LLP). The shopping center tenants pay rent to the landlord organization.--Epeefleche (talk) 04:33, 18 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Pardon me for butting in; I saw this after reading the reply to my message above. My guess is that whether or not a mall is a company would depend. Where I used to live in the US, most malls were owned by a larger management company, like Westfield Group. This would mean that each mall is actually the branch of a company (like a single location of a corporate owned store, like Walmart). Oddly enough, it almost seems like that means it's not eligible for A7, because the criteria specifies "organization", not "organization or its sub-divisions". That is quite a counter-intuitive idea--it would mean that an article on something like Tax Working Group of the Second Accounting Division of the U.S. Division of Multinational X would technically not qualify under A7. Unless you already know of precedent, perhaps it would be helpful to seek clarification from WT:CSD, and maybe even a re-write of the policy. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:36, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It is not uncommon for companies to have subsidiary companies, to firewall risk. A subsidiary would be an organization. In any event, either way, it is an organization. The organization is the entity that signs the contracts -- such as lease agreements to the shops. Hence this sentence in Yahoo Finance describing the company: "Westfield Group, through its subsidiaries, operates as a retail property group in Australia, the United States, New Zealand, and the United Kingdom." --Epeefleche (talk) 05:15, 22 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Would you mind clarifying your stance on the copyvio to the other editor in yes/no since the current list does not mirror the format of the original (actually it is pretty ugly here) and I've been reverted on re-adding - also see my edit summary. [69]. Thanks. --lTopGunl (talk) 01:55, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, just started adding refs. I will try to add more refs from now on. --B for Bandetta (talk) 01:47, 25 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If you go to any outback Australian town, you'll notice that there are a couple of permanent structures which form the centre of the town: a school, a pub, a war memorial and one and/or another of a railway station, police station or another pub. Take, for example, Junee, population ~3000, Maps which was practically built around Junee Public School. It's likely the same all over the planet, not just Junee.

These schools are the centres of their communities. Through their existence they have significant impact on the local history (and also, by definition, education) per WP:ORGIN. Now, for some schools its going to be hard to have anything but a stub verifying the existence of the school. In those cases it's better for the content to be merged into the locality (where, who knows, it may be able to incubate). But for schools where a bit more can be, or has been written, then that article deserves a little bit more consideration. Agree?

Junnee Public School, by the way, was founded in 1880 and is therefore one of the oldest schools in Australia. A number of its buildings are heritage listed. *shrug* ˜danjel [ talk | contribs ] 05:03, 25 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Should this discussion not be taking place on WP:SCHOOLS? Notability is not decided in user space. The current definition of notability is quite clear - significant coverage in independent sources. If we don't have that then how would we 'know' that the school is notable? Fmph (talk) 07:13, 25 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is not a discussion for the point of reaching a decision. It's just between two editors.

If we're going with significant coverage in independent sources, then half of what's been deleted over the past few weeks passes. I'd be happy with that, but I get the impression that Epeefleche wouldn't. ˜danjel [ talk | contribs ] 07:20, 25 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'd have to dispute that. I think your interpretation of 'significant' and 'independent' are quite different from mine. Fmph (talk) 08:53, 25 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What are you disputing? Independent significant sources? So Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Middle Harbour Public School (2nd nomination) passes, it had sources in SMH, a major broadsheet newspaper here in Australia. As I said, I think you're on the wrong track. ˜danjel [ talk | contribs ] 09:03, 25 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If that's 'half' then we are only disputing 2 noms, in which case I'd give you that one. Fmph (talk) 09:10, 25 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

[70] Hey, I should say, I'm all for this. ˜danjel [ talk | contribs ] 09:12, 25 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What has any of that got to do with AfD noms? Fmph (talk) 09:17, 25 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

All public primary schools in NSW have "public school" at the end of their name. About half of those results mention a school, like [71] (Ferncourt Public School), [72] (Gladesville PS), [73] (Rainbow St. PS), [74] (a whole bunch of schools topped by St. Francis Paddington Catholic School) and [75] (Rouse Hill PS)... All of these are notable because of the coverage they've received in an RS? If I can count on your Keep votes, I'll get started straight away. ˜danjel [ talk | contribs ] 09:39, 25 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As an aside, and back to what I was saying before, most of those schools are also interesting because they're quite old. From Ferncourt PS in 1886, Gladesville PS 1879, Rainbow St. PS (late 1890's?), and Rouse Hill (1875). ˜danjel [ talk | contribs ] 09:47, 25 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

AfD is not a vote count. As an aside, you seem to be concatenating numerous mentions of the term 'public school' with the requirement for significant references. Sure, most of this are independent sources. But significant coverage? I wouldn't think so. And anyway, my point was about your assertion that half the recent AfDs had significant coverage in independent sources. I just don't believe that half of them did have such. Else they would have survived. Show me a bunch of current AfDs with significant coverage in independent sources? Fmph (talk) 10:02, 25 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And having looked through those links, IMHO only two of them would help towards notability - Gladesville and Rainbow - but only if something else confirmed these were significant notability issues. A school which makes films? WP:RUNOFTHEMILL possibly. A Head removed by parental vote? Possibly, because the article mentions that heads were worried that it mighht set a precedent. Well if it had set a precedent and now there was a flurry of such votes, then as the first it would be notable. Have any of these been up for AfD? Fmph (talk) 10:09, 25 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, OK. This is a problem. You don't have local knowledge. Principals are never voted against by their Parent groups, Rainbow St. PS is the only occurence I can recall in my history of having worked with NSW schools. Same goes for Ferncourt PS' Ethics program (Google for Ethics Schools NSW for a head slapping fun time regarding Religion-State relationship). As for precedent setting, Middle Harbour, pointed out above, set a precedent

I selected out those issues because they're pretty heavily covered in Australian media. You could find articles covering the same issues at various other Australian news outlets. *shrug* Therefore, you would suggest that articles on these schools should survive? As I said, cool. ˜danjel [ talk | contribs ] 10:14, 25 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You seem intent on putting words in my mouth. Where you see precedent, I see a one-off not-particularly-notable unusual occurrence. And we shouldn't need 'expert' or local knowledge to know if a subject is notable. The sources should tell us. Sorry, but you haven't convinced me of anything yet. 12:16, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

You have quite successfully missed the point. I'm not trying to convince you of anything, nor am I trying to write an article in order to support the information that you should be able to see at the sources (seriously, you're suggesting that sources provide a complete justification for why schools are successful?). So, I'll recap:

I suggested that there be criteria for schools to fulfil in order to be considered notable, based on the relatively more subjective nature of WP:ORG. You suggested that schools be considered notable on the basis of mentions in reliable sources. I provided a number of articles mentioning schools in regards to fairly major and well reported issues (here in Australia) where I would worry that Epeefleche, among others, would not consider them to pass muster. You moved the goal-posts and said that they're not notable because we shouldn't need local knowledge to understand that the issues are major. You appear to have abandoned your first point that schools be considered notable on the basis of mentions in reliable sources, and therefore we can leave it aside as being a distraction like I first thought. Did I miss anything?

I'll return, again, to the point that Epeefleche and I were going to discuss: a more objective means of identifying notable schools. Per my point above, I think that schools are significant components of their local communities and am more inclusive. I would suggest that age, enrolment, and status be a simple way of approaching the issue. ˜danjel [ talk | contribs ] 06:38, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think I'm the one missing the point.

1. I never mentioned 'mentions'. I was very clear. significant coverage in independent sources.
2. You tried and failed to convince me that every mention of the phrase 'public school' in an oz context meant half of recent AfD decisions were wrong. I'm guess some editorial licence was used.
3. I'll return to my original point. discussions on changes to, or agreement about defining notability, are not for users pace. WP:SCH would be a good place to start.
4. i'm done. This is unproductive.

Fmph (talk) 07:19, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Hi all. I'll just comment on the last point. I agree with much of what Fmph says overall, on a substantive level, but (unless I'm missing something, which is possible) it is I think perfectly fine for editors to discuss their views on what the current state of play is, and what changes might be made to it and how such changes might be effected, on editor talkpages. As you can see from above posts from a number of members -- just on this talkpage -- it is certainly not unusual. As Wikipedia:User pages says, "User pages ... are useful for organizing and aiding the work users do on Wikipedia, and facilitating interaction and sharing between users. User pages mainly are for interpersonal discussion, notices, testing and drafts". But, your point is well taken that to get the broadest consensus, other pages -- whether they be a project talkpage or a notability talkpage or the like -- will be more likely to attract more editors. Judging from just the above string, however, I think that might at this point become very long, very quickly. No harm thinking it out here (though note: I may well delete it at some point in time). IMHO, of course. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:29, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It has been discussed at WP:WPSCH in the past (several times), and I'm told that there's an RfC in the works. ˜danjel [ talk | contribs ] 07:38, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, are you planning on actually interacting with this topic (except to reply to Fmph) at any point, or was this exercise in WP:AGF a massive waste of time/effort on my part? ˜danjel [ talk | contribs ] 14:41, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Waiting for the dust to settle, and others to have their say.--Epeefleche (talk) 18:46, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Dan -- it was helpful to better understand your views. I've given them some thought. As with many of wp's approaches, the approach used generally vis-a-vis schools is not one where there is an objective "correct" way to address it, and an objective "wrong" approach. What we do have is some guidance in guidelines, some guidance in course of dealing as reflected in other AfDs, and whatever the community consensus is. A number of editors seem not to take this approach -- for this reason, some of the conversation has been polarizing. And there has been a bit of posturing, where some editors state their position as though it is an ineluctable conclusion, and anyone who doesn't see it their way is stupid, uninformed, or evil. That's unfortunate.

My view is I'm happy to go with whatever the consensus view is. One problem with this of course is that different editors describe the consensus view differently. But there seems to be a general consensus on most articles. A notability guideline on schools would clarify the matter further, and streamline discussion.

I hear your view, and if there were consensus support for it, I would actively support application of it. I don't see that support. If you can create it, I will support you, but until then I think it may not be in the best interest of all to apply a notability approach at AfDs themselves that is contrary to the notability approach we've seen garner consensus support at those AfDs that we both have been at. Better to seek to garner that support on talkpages, I think. IMHO, of course.

As to tone -- as I said, I think that conversation has become polarized, but there is no need for it. I don't think that personally directed remarks do much to win third parties over. Just the opposite. I would suggest that all tone down the snarkiness, to raise the intellectual level of the discourse. That's not giving in. That's just effective wiki discussion, IMHO.

Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 08:46, 28 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have come to the opinion that half of the editors in primary school AfDs could/should be ignored as all they see are "primary school" and !vote accordingly.

The other half, I feel, have an unbalanced view of what is and is not notable in regards to wikipedia. As an example which I found while working on a draft in my userspace the other day, Alfords Point Bridge, which is a 4 lane minor bridge over the upper section of the George's River would probably be considered notable, even though it has barely any "significant coverage" whereas nearby Alfords Point Public School would be rejected out of hand, no matter what sources could be found (not that I'm saying it's notable, it's way outside my area of work). I am wondering what, then, would be enough?

Ignoring your deletion blitz over new years, and just concentrating on your recent AfD activity in regards to schools (where I assume that you have started following WP:BEGIN): you have rejected a school which was exceptionally highly ranked in standardised tests and involved in statewide significant programs (i.e., the Ethics program which has been widely reported in NSW and Australia) and you've rejected a school which has been on the receiving end of major grants. So what, then, is enough? What would make a primary school notable in your eyes?

Two points. One -- you've not taken on my suggestion as to personal attacks. I imagine you either don't agree as to my comments in that regard, or have some other driver. Second -- in both the AfDs you point to the consensus is that there should not be a stand-alone article. You might give some thought as to why that is the consensus view -- not just one editor's view, but the consensus view of the community at those AfDs. If you believe in WP:CONSENSUS, you might wish to have that impact your future !votes. All I see in your above post is that you disagree with others -- what I'm asking you to consider doing is to recognize consensus here, how your view has been a non-consensus one at times, and how you might bring your notability !votes into closer line with consensus.--Epeefleche (talk) 10:49, 28 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see personal attacks in what I've said above. I don't know what you're talking about. If you're talking about Purplebackpack89, then I've explained why I think that there are serious competence issues, and they're legitimate.

WP:CONSENSUS can only work as far as people participate in discussion from a neutral standpoint. As I said, AfD in regards to school seems to progress with people starting from a standpoint of primary schools are not notable and can not be proved to be notable (half of the !vote'ers won't stick around to continue the discussion, and the other half, seemingly or avowedly (in at least one case), believe that there is nothing that an editor can do to prove the notability). This is a place where a consensus, at least in it's normal sense here at wikipedia can't be achieved. Like WP:RFA, for example, there are some serious issues that need to be worked out.

Negotiation would be fantastic, and I'm more than willing to see if that can happen. But that can't happen when one party won't even spell out their position. So, again, my question to you in order to find some area where there can be compromise is, again, what do you think needs to be done to show that a primary school is notable? ˜danjel [ talk | contribs ] 11:42, 28 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

So editors who believe that primary schools are inherently non-notable won't even spell out their position? I would have thought that was about as clear a position as could possibly be. But you don't. C'est la vie. Vive la difference! Fmph (talk) 14:52, 28 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's also completely intractable. It'd be like a gay marriage discussion where there are a myriad of views possible between allowing gay marriage for various reasons and disallowing them for various reasons, and then the position that gay people aren't human. *shrug* ˜danjel [ talk | contribs ] 15:27, 28 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Dan -- if you don't see you're personal attack, perhaps that is part of the problem. As to your substantive remarks, I would not agree that -- just because an editor does not wish to devote his Saturday brunch time to chatting with you -- his position is baseless. If an editor were to say: "I think that, absent special indicia of notability, individual football games are not notable", and choose not to get into a long discussion as to "why", that would be understandable. So it is here. And many like-minded editors have in fact discussed their views with you. If you wish to seek consensus for a bright-line rule that every school that is 50 years old, for example, or any other such view that you hold, that's fine and commendable. If you can gain consensus for it, that would streamline discussion. However, there is no evidence that that view has consensus support. Quite the opposite. In the interim, acknowledging what consensus is on points like that, and that while you sincerely hold certain views they are not the consensus views of the community, would perhaps be helpful.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:38, 28 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If you are so sensitive as to interpret criticism of your and/or your colleagues' behaviour as criticism of your and/or your selves, then... *shrug*

If you had put thought to what constitutes notability for a school article (as is practically required by steps C & D under WP:BEGIN), then it shouldn't be too hard to spell out a scenario in which a primary school article passes by your criteria. I've laid out some of my criteria above, you should be able to do the same. ˜danjel [ talk | contribs ] 00:18, 29 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Your fellow editors have a right to dislike personal attacks and inflammatory statements, and be sensitive to them. A failure to AGF, and continued unfounded accusations of what an editor is thinking or what an editor's actions are off-wiki with regard to looking for sources -- especially in light of their disavowals -- is not appropriate. And may do little to help you make the point you are trying to make. As to your notability standards, I've already pointed out that they are non-consensus, as demonstrated in the very two AfDs you point to. Your view that being 50 years old makes a school notable does not appear to be a consensus view. If there were an RFC on the subject, I think that editors would be split as to whether some number of years would -- without more -- make a school notable, but I expect based on what I have seen at the AfDs that the notion that a 50-year-old school is per se notable would be rejected out of hand. In any case, there isn't a need to address hypothetical schools -- we have our hands and time full with real schools. Though I do think a guideline would be helpful. In the meantime, I urge you to consider in what way your views at those two AfDs are at odds with the consensus views of your colleagues, and perhaps let that influence your thinking as to what the consensus approach is at wp. We are a collaborative community; it is great to have different views, and discuss them, but at the end of the day if your view is not that of the community it does little good to retreat into disparaging others who don't share your view. --Epeefleche (talk) 00:48, 29 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's not a matter of "personal attacks" when a user flat out states what his views are (i.e., that WP:BEGIN is beneath him, that all primary schools are "non-notable"). Equally it's not a matter of personal attacks when AfD nominations are made at such a frequency that any consideration of notability simply could not be performed as in your case between your nominations of Engadine Public School and Middle Harbour Public School. In any case, this is criticism of your behaviour, not an attack on your person. The continuing soccer-player style faking of injury for the benefit of spectators/"referees" is really quite tedious.

You still evade the question of what, in your mind, would constitute notability for a primary school. I've asked you directly several times now and put forward my views. WP:AGF can only go so far before your evasiveness begins to suggest that you're deliberately keeping your position nebulous in order to hide your real perspective. ˜danjel [ talk | contribs ] 01:00, 29 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It is a personal attack to ask an editor "do you do x off-wiki", have them respond "yes", and then assert blandly that they have not done x. It is also a failure to AgF. That's without even discussing any personalized attacking statements at AfDs and elsewhere. It strikes me that a number of editors have raised similar concerns with regard to NPA and AGF. As with giving a think to the consensus at AfDs, and how your views have differed from those of your colleagues at times, you might do well to pay heed to concerns about personal attacks. As a side matter, that could perhaps be a reason why some editors who disagree with your simply state their disagreement succinctly -- some might thing that they are "feeding" behavior by engagement beyond what is necessary. Editors, you may have noticed, aren't required to engage in you, though from the above you can tell that some have paid you that courtesy up until this point. But where questions have been answered, and you pose them again because you dislike the response -- as in your last query -- there is really little more to say other than "read the prior post". Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 01:11, 29 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Carried over from Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Shawn Pierce I think the current policy is here: Wikipedia:DP#Deletion_of_biographies_and_BLPs. Deryck C. 21:30, 25 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent. Many thanks.--Epeefleche (talk) 04:06, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have started this, will give it more attention this evening.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 22:08, 25 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Nice work.--Epeefleche (talk) 23:43, 25 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I'm not real happy with it yet. I will probably make subsections on "Gallery gun", "Parlor gun", "Flobert gun" and when I get better source material "Saloon gun" (A larger caliber rifle with a chamber insert to allow it to shoot smaller rounds indoors).--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 00:12, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If you can move it along quickly enough, you may well have a DYK.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:08, 27 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Epeefleche. Was reviewing CSD and came upon Walter Bosshard. The article is certainly deletable as the text stands now, but there is a detailed article on the German Wikipedia about him. I will try to expand with my limited German and help from brother Google. -- Samir 22:48, 27 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent. Thanks.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:49, 27 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

just a heads up on the article that just closed as delete at AfD. Don't know how you came across it but there were a ton of redirects. Just a heads up in case his article pops up again. StarM 23:47, 29 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the heads up.--Epeefleche (talk) 06:47, 30 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

While I understood and accepted yor concern, the way you expressed it makes me wondering whether you spend too much time in wikipedia or simply disrespect the colleagues who are not well versed in policies, guidelines, traditions and other wikilore and wikilaw. Lom Konkreta (talk) 02:09, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Responded. Best. Have a pleasant day.--Epeefleche (talk) 06:00, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As I have already said, I understood what you really meant, despite a thick layer of accusation in vandalism, disruption and whats not. Hopefully my skin is thick, I can see through wikiholism. I made the comment above in hope you will take it easier on warning templates, which may be quite discouraging and for a newbie look more like fight than cooperation. I cannot believe that you really thought that my goal was to disrupt your nomination. Quite the opposite: I threw in a yet another article of equal quality. (Or did you think that it may be kept?) Lom Konkreta (talk) 17:21, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No worries. My concern was that you added -- into my post, preceding my signature, and altering the text that I had written -- the suggestion that a second article be nominated for AfD. That of course made it appear, to someone reading the post, as though I had suggested the 2nd album for deletion. While I had done nothing of the kind. And, as I indicated to you, would not have. I don't think that the 2nd article should be deleted. Changing another person's words, to make it appear that they said something that they did not say, is I would think obviously something that should be avoided. It doesn't matter whether it is a doctoral dissertation they write, a check they make out, a wikipedia AfD posting, or a note to their friend -- to alter their words, and have it appear that they said something that they did not say, should I would think be something one would obviously avoid. One doesn't need to be "versed versed in policies, guidelines, traditions and other wikilore and wikilaw" I would think to realize that this is something one might avoid doing. IMHO, of course. If you wish to nominate a second article for deletion, feel free to start an AfD on it. But please don't change my words, including changing the words within a sentence that I wrote, making it seem as though I took a position that it the opposite of my view. Much appreciate. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:43, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Deletion of GAA pages

I am questioning your decision to eliminate numerous GAA pages. Yes, these competitions are amateur, but if you use that rationale you should eliminate all GAA pages since the organization is an amateur body. You could use the same rationale to eliminate many rugby pages, but I do not see you doing this. Yes, some pages by some users are badly written, and contain elements of bias, but these articles contain important GAA info. If you understood the nature of the sport, you would see that the small parish club playing in its own local competition is as important as Kerry playing in Croke Park. I have tried to clean up some articles, but it takes time to get to to the hundreds of different ones that have been set up. Good manners are rather uncommon nowadays, but please try to provide some common courtesy. Pmunited (talk) 17:08, 3 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. Perhaps we have different views as to notability. For example, I see that I suggested that a page be deleted -- Limerick Minor Hurling Championship -- which apparently you created, that is about an amateur, county-wide, under-18 hurling competition that appears to me to be non-notable. It also happens to be bereft of refs, which falls short of meeting our policy at wp:v. I do think there is a place for notable amateur events, but this does not seem to me to fall into that class.--Epeefleche (talk) 17:32, 3 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

When I first started with Wikipedia, there were extensive articles on these types of competitions in several different counties. I began to add the few I was most familiar with - Cork, Waterford, Clare. I would argue that to a GAA fan, these are important, as any club will on its own website will list not just their senior success, but also their minor, under-21 etc. I feel that Wikipedia should have this information. I have generally refrained from adding articles on "B" competitions, unless I have complete data. I am in the process of adding the sources that I have for many of the competitions that you have challenged. If I do not have sources at hand, I will notify you and understand if you proceed as indicated. One possible problem I do see is with the Waterford competitions. I began those, but several others have added lots of data since on teams, scores, etc. I am not sure if I have sources available. Pmunited (talk) 20:49, 5 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Understood. The text for notability on wp is not, however, whether it would be notable to a GAA fan. It must meet our notability standards. These under-age-21, amateur, count-level competitions do not as best I can see meet our notability standards. We have many sports represented on wp that are themselves notable, but where such amateur, age-group, local competitions that do not meet our notability standards are not covered.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:53, 5 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Greetings Epeefleche and Pmunited - I'm not unfortunately au fait with a lot of the language used around deletion policies and notability on Wikipedia. Just to suppport Pmunited's broad stance on the issue at hand. Some of the articles proposed for speedy deletion were created by me. I will do my best to supply sources and references. Best wishes. Heshs Umpire (talk) 13:31, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Greetings. Many thanks for your contributions. Unfortunately, many of the articles were completely or largely unsourced, bereft of indicia of notability. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 13:34, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Epeefleche, I still disagree with you concerning the notability of these GAA articles. I believe that you cannot get a full understanding of GAA from only the senior competitions. The whole ethos of the GAA is the local club. All competitions are amateur. The other grades are very important - indeed most clubs do not play at senior level. I will continue to add sources for as many articles as possible this week. I do think you are taking an over aggressive position in many places, where you have deleted large amounts of information. Pmunited (talk) 16:54, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

To warrant a wikipedia article, a subject must be notable. Much material has been added that appears to be non-notable. Notability is not measured as you suggest by whether a fan of the sport would find the under age 18, for example county-level competition to be notable. If it were, we would reflect all manner of age-18 local-level amateur competitions as stand-alone wp articles. We don't, because even though a fan of such competitions may like to have a wp article, they generally do not meet our standards of notability.--Epeefleche (talk) 17:04, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I would add my support to the two other contributors, we are only doing our best to help build a record of such competitions for people to be able to access, admittedly in certain cases references are difficult to find, if they exist in published form at all, but in spite of this are quite accurate records of the competitions in question. And yet that work is been disregarded by someone who doesn't understand where we come from on this subject, hiding behind this 'notability' nonsense. Not the first time this has happened on wikipedia, makes you wonder why bother with it at all. BlackWhite77 (talk) 02:09, 18 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I understand. Unfortunately (or not, depending on one's view), wikipedia is not a repository for all information that everyone would like record. See, for example, Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. This is no doubt a disappointment to some, as many people would like to record information with regard to their favorite person, company, school, sports team, mall, book, etc. -- our "notability" and deletion discussions always involve articles that reflect some record some person or persons wanted to record. People are, of course, able to create their own websites and host there information that they would like the world to see. But wp is not, as I said, for hosting all information. For that reason, wp developed a sifting process -- standards that articles must meet in order to be hosted on the Project. Even if something "exists" and there is "accurate" information about it, that is not in itself generally sufficient. It must be what wp deems notable, which is a higher bar. Our general notability guidelines, and some of the rationale behind them, can be found at Wikipedia:Notability. More specific guidelines as to sports can be found at Wikipedia:Notability (sports). WP may view an article as non-notable, and delete it, if it fails to meet these guidelines. This is the case even if a matter is "true" and accurate". For some reason, we do see from time to time articles that lack substantial, independent coverage on a county-wide, amateur, 18-years-olds competition in some sport. That is the sort of thing that is of great interest to those connected with the competition, but may well not meet our standards for notability. Most sports don't have a great deal of this type of article on wp -- this goes as well for sports that are Olympic sports, as it does for those that are non-Olympic sports. The people who created articles that don't meet our standards may well not have been aware of them in the first place, which is unfortunate. But the reasons for what you call this "notability nonsense" are as described in the links that I gave you, and the articles that can be linked to through those. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 02:34, 18 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Folks, Further to what Epeefleche says if you believe these articles are notable in the sense that the subjects are well known within the GAA world; but that they are not notable in the Wikipedia sense of being noted in Neutral, Independent, Reliable sources with enough detail that we can write an article - Then why not consider moving them to writing them on our sister site Wikia? Wikia doesn't have any notability requirements and will happily take your articles within a specific sub wiki all about GAA. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 09:10, 18 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

thanks for the message, let me know if there is a 2nd AFD nomination, also it happend during the Afd disscution of Arsames (band), where the writter of article is the promotor of the band! and I think the article is not proper for wikipedia. plz take a look. Spada II ♪♫ (talk) 07:55, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but your nomination of User:PJKs shirt/Southmoor Primary School is a disgrace. Please respect someone userspace and the drafts in it. Night of the Big Wind _talk 11:50, 9 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As I indicated at the AfD, the deletion request was lodged initially in the wrong place. Somehow, it came up in my general search. I asked (as I expect you know) at the AfD that it be moved, as it did not belong at AfD. I see that (after the mis-placed AfD was properly closed) another editor has now nominated the text at issue for deletion at MfD (where I had requested the discussion be moved), with a third editor supporting its deletion. See Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:PJKs shirt/Southmoor Primary School. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 18:07, 9 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That draft article in userspace has now been deleted. See Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:PJKs shirt/Southmoor Primary School.--Epeefleche (talk) 13:22, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I hereby complain about your serial nominating. I have only picked out a few to check, and in all cases I could easily find reliable sources. Could you please lower your nomination pace and do a genuine effort to find sources for articles you nominate? I would hate to bring this to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard, but you are seriously disrupting Wikipedia with your actions. Night of the Big Wind _talk 14:48, 9 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Nominating things for deletion is not disrupting the project--Guerillero | My Talk 14:50, 9 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The sheer volume of his nominations combined with the dodgy quality makes it disrupting. With a nomination as Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/User:PJKs shirt/Southmoor Primary School, an article in the userspace, I start doubting about AGF. Night of the Big Wind _talk 15:49, 9 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I came to this talk page after seeing the userspace page at AfD. I'm not going to address the "serial nominating" complaint, but I just wanted to chime in that userspace drafts can be deleted per WP:STALEDRAFT, and they often are at MfD. The way I see it, Epeefleche's main violation with this specific AfD is that he opened the discussion at AfD instead of MfD. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 15:58, 9 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That draft article has now been deleted. See Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:PJKs shirt/Southmoor Primary School.--Epeefleche (talk) 04:42, 19 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Looks like good work to me. Pointing out an obvious mistake as the tipping point to stop assuming good faith shows poor judgement on the part of the complainant. The sheer volume of dodgy quality articles that exist warrants bringing many to the appropriate forums to see if they belong. I often see passing complaints in the AFD discussions that focus on why the nominator is wrong to nominate articles rather than just sticking to making a black and white point as to why they should be kept. We've got janitors and we've got researchers. Janitors are very important to help sweep up the crap and push researchers to improve. I've seen many articles, stagnant for years, that get pushed into good quality articles because someone nominated them for deletion. Unless you have specific evidence that indicates bad faith, don't pull that card out. You've got a lot of volunteers here. Some see a problem and want to make sure it's noticed and taken care of by a more knowledgeable editor or one that has more free time. We don't all have the luxury of time to dig out and insert sources but we may have time to point out that something needs a broader look. Both types of contributors are needed, welcomed, and valued. -- Mufka ^{(u) (t) (c)} 16:19, 9 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A janitor normally uses a mop, Epeefleche uses a Bulldozer. Night of the Big Wind _talk 16:30, 9 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This business of dividing Wikipedia into lazy finger pointers and article-clean-up crew has no basis in reason.  AfD is not clean-up.  If we wanted to use AfD for clean-up, we could set a robot to work nominating articles for deletion.  Unscintillating (talk) 15:53, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• The vast majority of those articles on which I !vote delete or nom for deletion are closed as deletions or redirects, rather than maintaining the stand-alone article. The vast majority of those articles on which I !vote keep are closed as keeps or merges. The AfD that Night refers to was initially misplaced, as discussed above and at the AfD itself. The discussion has been, as I requested, moved to MfD, where so far all editors who have !voted believe it should be deleted. As to looking for sources, it is my practice to look for them in gnews and gbooks, at minimum, and not !vote for deletion or nom an article unless I see an absence of substantial, multiple, RS coverage. That is borne out in the percentage of my noms that result in deletions or redirects.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:07, 9 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Because nobody is prepared to spend all day to counter your flood of PRODs and AfD's... Night of the Big Wind _talk 15:33, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • The only reason that so many of these articles have been deleted is because there has been a concerted campaign in the absence of the usual active school editors. The sheer scale of the nominations has also meant that people haven't had the time to investigate them all properly. A number of legitimate articles have been deleted or redirected as a result of this campaign. I'm already in the process of trying to restore a couple of affected articles. Another side-effect of this deletionist campaign is that new editors who have just started to contribute to Wikipedia get frightened away if their first attempt to create or edit an article results in that article being deleted. I've already seen this happen in one case where a well sourced article for a notable primary school got caught up in this frenzy of activity. It is very disruptive to the project. Dahliarose (talk) 16:11, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yet more bad faith accusations that only the 'inclusionists' investigate AfD candidates properly. Total and utter nonsense. 'Deletionists' also investigate properly. They just come to different conclusions. Doh!. Fmph (talk) 16:38, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment  The half a dozen articles that I have seen nominated were either redirected without deletion or kept.  These nominations were a diversion of editorial resources.  The point is that if there are reliable primary sources for a primary school, and limited secondary sources, that a concerned editor should move the reliable material to the parent article and do the redirect him/herself.  Unscintillating (talk) 15:53, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• As I said -- the vast majority of those articles on which I !vote delete or nom for deletion are closed as deletions or redirects, rather than maintaining the stand-alone article. The vast majority of those articles on which I !vote keep are closed as keeps or merges. Some editors I understand would simply redirect such articles without discussion, as Un might (they think that takes care of getting rid of the stand-alone (the main issue), that there is little harm in a redirect, and that that avoids discussion). I don't choose to, because that deprives any editor with a different view--who looks at AfDs but does not have the individual article on his watchlist--of a voice. As to school articles, those AfDs that are currently open at which I've !voted or nominated the article are listed here: Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Schools; it seems that they are likely, for the most part, to close in accordance with my nominations or !votes.--Epeefleche (talk) 17:06, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect that your 150 nominations have a poor record for needing admin tools, that was true for my sample of six, and you don't deny it when you group delete, delete-and-redirect, and redirect-without-delete all together.  Since my last discussion here I started down the list of school AfDs that you provided and was able to look at only two before I got to Auburn Village School, not one of your noms, not even technically a bad nom, because the article failed WP:V, but IMO a poorly-prepared nom that didn't assert that the topic failed WP:V, and given that the nom was claiming that a primary school failed notability, the nom IMO should not have been allowed to proceed at AfD.  I spent a couple of man days and have found that the topic is not only WP:V verifiable, it is notable enough for a stand-alone article.  It is easy to understand that you are frustrated about some recent events, so I hope you aren't taking it out on the work of editors that created primary-school articles.  Regards, Unscintillating (talk) 05:44, 14 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure that I follow much of that. I'm not sure I do those things. But as to the AfD you refer to, which is one I've !voted on but which as you say was nominated by another editor, I'll follow its course with interest. Other than that, I stand by what I said above. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 05:57, 14 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: I am frankly ashamed of the bad faith assumed by Danjel, Dahlia and Big Wind. They seem to have parleyed not liking the results of discussions into Epeefleche and I being menacing, incompetent editors who are always acting in bad faith. This is just deplorable Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 17:49, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

		Civility Award
		For not losing your cool in a situation where others might and calmly pointing to policy, it's my very good honor to award you The Civility Barnstar. Achowat (talk) 21:04, 10 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. You have a new message at Achowat's talk page.

Hi E. I saw your post on the TV project notice board about KBCH-TV. I thought that I would let you know that the number of editors that respond there has dwindled over the years. In case you don't get a quick response you may want to also post your question at the Wikipedia talk:Notability or even Wikipedia talk:Notability (organizations and companies). I can't guarantee that they will be any better but I jsut wanted to give you some options. For what its worth I don't think it meets wikiP's requirements. Cheers and enjoy your weekend. MarnetteD | Talk 23:30, 10 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Tx.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:09, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am somewhat concerned about your recent edits. You seem to be very actively tagging articles for lack of references and nominating articles for deletion. I have not investigated all the articles that you've tagged and nominated but I have been involved in some of the school article that you've nominated for deletion or tagged. I've noticed that you often seem to inappropriately add ref improve tags to articles that already have references. Many of your school AfDs have been flawed. You seem to be under the misconception that all primary schools are non-notable which is not the case. School articles have to comply with WP:N. While perhaps the majority of primary schools will not merit an article in their own right, many do. Some notable historic schools have been caught up in this AfD campaign of yours while regular editors have been busy and not able to help improve and source the articles. Work now has to be done to get these articles restored. Your edit history suggests that you only spend a few minutes looking at each article before tagging it or nominating it. Could I suggest that you devote less time to tagging and deleting and more time to constructive editing by adding useful content and sources. If you are going to tag articles or nominate them for deletion you should spend more time reading the article, checking that references exist and checking to see what sources are available. Dahliarose (talk) 14:13, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Can you provide some specific examples? Does this fall under the discussion above? -- Mufka ^{(u) (t) (c)} 15:04, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This does fall under the discussion above on serial nominating though attention now seems to be diverted to serial tagging instead. Lyneham Primary School is an example of an article that got tagged despite already having 11 references. This article Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/St Peter's Middle School, Old Windsor got deleted and then I had to spend some time working out procedures to get the article restored under the redirect. When the article was first nominated there were no sources so the initial votes were based on that, but it was the same few people who have recently been popping up at school AfDs and routinely voting delete on the basis that primary schools are inherently non-notable. Even so, the infobox showed that the school was founded in 1799. I would have thought that any editor would realise that there was no such thing as a primary school in 1799. This knowledge would then alert them to different strategies to search for sources. Sources were subsequently added to the article, but too late to save it from its fate. I'm now working to get the article restored when I have more time. Also take a look at [this edit history prior to nominating Knoxfield Primary School for deletion. It is quite clear Epeefleche has made no attempt to look for sources prior to the AfD nomination. It may turn out that the article doesn't justify an article but each article needs to be considered on its own merits. There probably is a need to clear out a lot of rubbish on Wikipedia but careless drive-by editing without following proper procedures such as WP:BEFORE is not the way to do it. Dahliarose (talk) 17:17, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As to school articles, those AfDs that are currently open at which I've !voted or nominated the article are listed here: Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Schools. It seems that they are likely, for the most part, to close in accordance with my nominations or !votes. That has been the case generally - the overwhelming majority of articles on which I have voted delete at or nominated have closed with the stand-alone article/text being erased. Similiarly, the overwhelming majority of articles on which I have !voted keep have closed with their text being kept as a stand-alone or as a merge. Furthermore -- I've stated in the past that I routinely do a wp:before search, which includes gnews and gbooks at a minimum, before nominating an article. No doubt, that has much to do with why the closes tend so often to be in line with my !votes.

I took a glance at the most recent AfDs at which Dahliarose and I !voted and had different views. It does happen. At Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/St. Bede's Prep School, she !voted keep, I !voted delete or redirect, and the close 3 days ago was redirect. At Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Li Sing Primary School, she !voted keep, I nom'd the article and indicated I was open to a delete or redirect, and the close 26 days ago was redirect. At Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/St Peter's Middle School, Old Windsor, she !voted keep, I nom'd the article and indicated I was open to a delete or redirect, and the close 26 days ago was redirect. So it is clear that Dahlia and I have had substantive differences. (We were, at the same time, in accord that the text should not be deleted at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Army Public School and College (Pakistan), and the close agreed with us). There are, of course, times where I may !vote or nom delete, and the result will be keep, but they are the distinct minority. The last 3 AfDs where we have differed, as I've indicated, the consensus been as indicated above, and all open school AfDs seem likely to close in similar manner.--Epeefleche (talk) 17:55, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Editors will necessarily have disagreements on the outcomes of articles but you still haven't answered the salient points raised above with regards to serial deleting and serial tagging both of which are disruptive. Serial deletions do not allow editors to assess the situation properly, leading to flawed AfD decisions. Your editing history suggests that you are not making the necessary checks for sources before nominating articles for deletion. It is impossible to do proper checks in two or three minutes. What's the point of providing links to searches if you don't spend any time reading through them before nominating? Your school searches are also flawed as schools often undergo name changes so a school with "primary" or "middle" in its name would have been called something else in the past. It takes time to make these sorts of checks and establish the history. Searches also need to be done on the local version of Google for the appropriate country not on Google USA. Dahliarose (talk) 18:23, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, editors will always have substantive disagreements. My point as to our difference in view was that in the last 3 differences that we have had, the consensus has supported my view. And that the vast majority of the time, my !vote at AfD has been in accord with consensus. That is a salient point -- it strikes me that you came to my page to complain, directly after 3 disagreements where the consensus was that your view was not the correct one. Also, as to the school articles currently at AfD -- another salient point -- the "problem" that you identify does not appear to exist. See Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Schools. Furthermore -- I've said repeatedly that I routinely conduct a wp:before search that includes gbooks and gnews. I never said -- and am curious that you would assert that that is the case -- that I do it directly before a nomination. To the contrary, I routinely do my searches first on a number of articles, check other non-online sources if available, and only then nominate articles. Your above assertion that "It is quite clear Epeefleche has made no attempt to look for sources" is flatly untrue -- please stop making such untrue assertions. As to refimprove tags -- they are not for articles wholly bereft of refs; there is a separate tag for that -- and they help encourage compliance with our core policy of wp:v.

I do hope that you are not casting false aspersions simply because of substantive disputes. I welcome you giving voice to your views on substantive issues where we differ. It is to afford editors like you that opportunity that I do not boldly -- as some have suggested -- redirect such articles, as that would hide such action from editors who only follow the deletions boards and do not follow the articles. But I think that baseless aspersions and failures to AGF do not advance our discussion.--Epeefleche (talk) 18:39, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Your editing history shows that you are drifting very rapidly from one article to another adding tags, prodding and nominating articles for deletion. Thankfully you've stopped mass nominating schools for deletion but in about six weeks from the middle of December onwards over 150 of the 200 or so schools that were nominated for deletion were nominated by you. I'm not too fussed about the outcome of individual school AfDs. I can easily reinstate the ones I'm interested in that merit standalone articles. It's just more hassle and more work. I'm more concerned about the bigger picture and ensuring that proper procedures are followed. Dahliarose (talk) 19:00, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You appear not to have read my prior post. Your assertion is false. Untrue. I'm uncertain as to why you would make a false assertion, have it pointed out to you that it is false, and then repeat it. I described for you above how I review articles before AfD. I also referenced the last 3 articles where we differed. In each case consensus supported my !vote and rejected yours. I supplied the link to all ongoing school AfDs at which I have !voted or nominated articles. That also reflects the same pattern of in-consensus !voting on my part. I recognize that we may differ at times substantively, which is fine. But if you would please stop making baseless assertions, that would be most appreciated.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:11, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Your 150+ school AfD nominations are in your editing history so it's not a false accusation. The outcome of individual school AfDs is immaterial. The problem was the sheer scale of the nominations which did not allow editors the chance to review the articles, let alone add sources. I see no point in discussing this issue further, but I'm pleased to note that your editing has now moved to more constructive areas and that you are now welcoming new editors. I hope the problem will not recur again. Dahliarose (talk) 23:46, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Actually -- the problem today is your repeated false assertion as to my wp:before search. It is false. It is inconsistent with the degree to which the AfDs close in accord with my !votes. It is inconsistent with the fact that where we have disagreed these past three weeks at AfD, it is your view that has been rejected. I've told you that more than once that your assertion is incorrect, and explained how I do my wp:before search. Please stop making false assertions. You and I disagreed at the last three school AfDs that we both !voted on over the past month. In each instance, the community rejected your view. You followed those three disagreements, these last three weeks, closing with the consensus being against you by littering my page the above repeated false accusation. Your maligning of an editor whose substantive view is other than yours -- to the extent that you repeat mis-truths as to their wp:before search -- is perhaps not helpful. And, when it comes in the wake of the community deciding that your view was not the consensus view at the three most recent AfDs at which the two of you !voted, it raises questions why you are making these untrue assertions. Please -- feel free to disagree with me and with other editors on substance. But please don't make untrue assertions as to their wp:before behavior, just because over the last three weeks the community has viewed your substantive position as wrong. Please don't do it here -- if you otherwise feel impelled to, you can stay off this page -- and please don't do it elsewhere. Thanks.--Epeefleche (talk) 00:00, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I noticed you were interested in that article, so I invite you to please let me know what you think about the following discussion: [76]. Thanks! --B for Bandetta (talk) 01:09, 16 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Of your last 25 Primary-school AfD nominations, two of the 25 resulted in the use of admin deletion tools.  These 25 ran from Knoxfield Primary School through Finchale Primary School.  The two exceptions are:

• Engadine_Public_School deleted by Guerillero on 17 January
• Mater_Dolorosa_Catholic_School_%28South_San_Francisco%29 deleted by Guerillero on 17 January
  

FYI, Unscintillating (talk) 01:50, 20 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• In how many of them did the result match my request -- which I imagine, in if not all, was to ax the standalone article, and either delete or redirect it? And in how many was the article, in contrast, closed a keep?--Epeefleche (talk) 01:53, 20 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"ax the standalone article" is not a defined term, so I'd be arguing if I tried to answer.  "AfD" stands for "articles for deletion", not "articles for axing".  To answer your other question, there were two cases of keep in the 25.  Unscintillating (talk) 20:17, 20 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the kind words, and help, at the Sleepy Hollow AFD. I appreciate it. Sergecross73 msg me 03:41, 20 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Epeefleche you need to take the advice of others and back of. You are both as bad as each other and no good will come to either of you by continuing it you both have history. Im saying the same to night. This has dragged on and its clear now neither you are totally in the right.

Also I'm going to point out to you that me and night very rarely get along but in this case he had a point which I'm not saying you didn't but this only came to something when several people had the same issue as night did as i said at before if i had come across this i would of checked your recent prods as I'm sure you would mine to make sure they aren't all the same. Thats where this should of ended before you both felt you were hounding each other. Edinburgh Wanderer 21:02, 20 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've never hounded Night. Please see wp:HOUNDING. I've not followed Night around the Project (as he has admitted following me), turning up at pages he edited. And I've not at those pages confronted his edits with de-PRODs, and contrary !votes, and edit warring, and removal of appropriate tags, and violations of wp:CHALLENGED, and Twinkle abuse, and violations of wp:OR. And I've not written to him: "you can stick that hurling article straight up in your <censored>.". As Night has done. This has been pointed out to your repeatedly. I would appreciate it if you would not make accusations that are at odds with the facts.

As to my running a tool to see what percentage of my !votes are in-consensus, and then comparing them to the 2 editors who suggested that my !votes were flawed, it is a reasonable way in which to explore whether there was any basis in the assertion. Clearly, there isn't. When Night !votes in a non-consensus fashion 6x more than I am, it is certainly curious that he should say he is following me and confronting my !votes because of my poor !voting record. There is simply nothing in my running the tool to respond to that accusation that falls within wp:hounding — I've not at all followed Night to any article or AfD to confront his edits.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:30, 20 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ive said the same to the both of you its up to you and night whether you leave each other alone or not is up to you.Edinburgh Wanderer 21:40, 20 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As I said -- I've not engaged in wp:HOUNDING. There is no hounding behavior that I've engaged in, which I should "stop".

You're coming across like someone who, seeing one person hitting another, says "Both of you stop hitting each other". But I've never hounded Night, following him to articles to confront his edits. The record is replete, however, with him doing the opposite, with de-PRODs, and contrary !votes, and edit warring, and removal of appropriate tags, and violations of wp:CHALLENGED, and Twinkle abuse, and violations of wp:OR.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:54, 20 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Im leaving this alone to be honest I'm sick of this Drama and would rather concentrate on content rather than waste time on a dispute. But ill tell you what i mean by back off as I've said at my last comment at ANI. Night started it no doubt. I don't think it extends as far as hounding however the deprods are fine anyone can do it possibly after that he took it to far and extended to personal attack albeit minor. Then why i say you needed to back off and bare in mind as i don't think nights was 100% hounding neither do i think yours are but by running reports going through archives to check for his warnings and block log that was looking at him just like he did to you it provoked him. Nights logs are not pretty but neither is yours. If he stays away from you and stops his attacks and what you perceive as hounding which he will because if he dosent it will be dealt with hay ill report him myself. Then its only correct that you agree to stop running reports on him and checking his talk page for stuff. Since you are a good editor and as you say the stats are ok my last point to you would be to say that is you appear to have upset a few people with your AFDS even although most are correct so all you have to do is slow down a bit. As far as i can see its the rate not the nomination thats annoying people have you considered helping at Wikipedia:New pages patrol they badly need the help of people reviewing and nominating new articles for deletion where appropriate. Im no longer watching ANI and will shortly unlatch your talk page.Edinburgh Wanderer 19:23, 21 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think you are full of good faith, but I don't think that you are reading carefully. Night's edits speak for themselves, and are well-documented. The string is poster-child to support the claims in that regard, including those of incivility, edit warring, etc.

As to hounding -- since I assume good faith, I assume that you are not reading the policy. It is very clear. Your assertions in my regard -- repeated an astonishing number of times, given their deficit -- are simple not true. This has been pointed out to you many times, and the policy has been provided to you in both inline fashion and in quoted extracts. The elements of what hounding is (which does not match my behavior in the least) and what hounding is not (which -- oddly enough, is what you keep on insisting is in fact hounding), are all there in the policy. And yet you keep repeating yourself, even with it being clear that your assertions are at direct odds with both the facts and the policy. It's all very curious.

If as you say Night desists in the complained about activity, that should address the concerns that started the string.

But you really owe it to yourself to read what the elements of hounding are. Wikihounding requires, which I've not done, following another editor to join discussions of the editor on multiple pages they edit, in order to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work. And then read the policy further, to see what is not wikihounding -- using contribution logs in a dispute resolution process to gather evidence to be presented. This is all spelled out quite starkly at wp:HOUNDING.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:44, 21 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

First of all it is you that calls it hounding not me when brought up at first forum it was very much not hounding at that time as was told to you by a couple of admins. It then escalated because night reacted badly to to what you call dispute res. Its not dispute res when you through it back in his face which you did even when you compared yourself to me that wasn't dispute res. Now you say night has a long history but so do you going back to your non productive days which are there to see as his are so you raking through his went you have history is provoking. Now night wasn't the only editor to disagree with you, As i see another editor is de prodding your articles so if they start de prodding your articles frequently will that be hounding and the next is that hounding. You need to stop taking things so seriously because this will keep happening. Edinburgh Wanderer 19:53, 21 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, it was hounding then (DGG only distinguished his edits -- but they were apples and oranges compared to Night's edits), and that of course is academic as the nature of the activity was made even more clear over the ensuing days. And yes -- I used contribution logs in a dispute resolution process to gather evidence to be presented. That's precisely what I did.

And it in no way involved following another editor to join discussions of the editor on multiple pages they edit, in order to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work. That is what hounding is. Read the policy. I didn't do that. Even you don't assert that I joined discussions Night was first engaged in or articles he edited to inhibit his work. Yet -- astoundingly -- while the elements of hounding aren't met in the least, you kept on repeating an untrue statement to the effect that there was hounding.

What i fail to understand is that why night leaving you alone isn't enough for you. It means you don't have to deal with him. Edinburgh Wanderer 20:04, 21 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oh -- I thought I said at AN/I that that would suffice, for me. I've sought to take a very civil approach with Night. I first engaged him in conversation, in both edit summaries and then moreso in talk page discussion across many posts. Only when that failed, did I bring the matter to a board. And though I could have brought it to AN/I, where sanctions are sought, I brought it to the far more mild wikiquette board. Of course, with the edit warring, incivility, and other violations, all of which fall into the nature of matters that can result in blocks, it perhaps would have been appropriate at AN/I. But my focus has been on exactly what you refer to, and I've not pushed as I might for sanctions beyond that, though I can understand why others have and would not think anyone wrong for applying them given the long string of behavior that has been detailed, and the prior warnings for the same ilk of behavior.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:33, 21 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The interaction ban is all thats needed but for that to work you need to agree to it too which is what I've been trying to get you to do. Now me an night have had arguments many times but he means well and actually i do wonder how you don't get along as you have very similar views. All I'm going to say is that you don't need to keep bringing up his past its evident as is yours. Now just because your past on wiki wasn't good does not mean you aren't productive now (which you are) and the same goes for night in the future so by constantly bringing up the past it encourages past behaviour to continue. The only positive for wiki is you both agree not to interact with each other and get on with your own lives. But please don't use reports in that way it makes night angry and in fact me as well there was no need to compare me as i don't doubt the validity in the end but i do some of the reasons as Gnews isn't conclusive for some of the more abscure ones and the speed. If this had been at a form of dispute res then maybe and in fact if you continue to disagree with other editors on this topic then i would do that as constant disagreement isn't going to go well in the long run.Edinburgh Wanderer 20:56, 21 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That makes no sense. That is like it would have been had you suggested that Deborah Gibson not hound Robert Bardo. The record is replete with evidence of him hounding me, and I'm happy to accept his offer to not do so. The record has zero -- how much clearer can I be with your -- evidence of me hounding him, and I have not done so. If Night lives up to his word, which I assume he will, that will address for the future the problem that led to the noticeboard strings.

Furthermore, if you dislike the stark fact that hounding requires following an editor to articles that they have edited to confront their work -- then seek a change to the policy. Don't mis-state it. And if you don't like the fact that hounding does not include using contribution logs in a dispute resolution process to gather evidence to be presented -- then seek a change to the policy. Don't mis-state it.

Ed -- why don't you demonstrate your good faith here, indicate that you now understand that your accusations of hounding were misplaced as you had not carefully read wp:hounding, and stop trying to attack the victim? I can't imagine why you mis-stated wp:hounding and its application to the instant facts--again, and again, and again. And why you are now following up by again, and again, and again asking that the victim agree not to engage in activity that the victim has not engaged in. But which only the hounder engaged in. It is all highly peculiar to me.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:09, 21 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Im sorry but given you ignore everything i say to you and accuse me of accusing you of hounding which i never have just that you started to exhibit some of the same things night did which you openly agree you did you see it as dispute res night dosent and i don't think the way you presented it was either. An interaction ban works both ways I've proposed a motion for it to be informed as was the aim of the any raised. I have now taken your page of my watchlist as you have no intention of discussing civily and being the bigger person and I'm not going to discuss with you any more.Edinburgh Wanderer 21:24, 21 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have not ignored you. I've read, considered, and responded to your every comment. Pointing out where you mis-state policy, or mis-state facts, is not ignoring you. I'm sorry if you feel it is.

As to your assertion that you never accused me of hounding -- I'm flabbergasted.

Do you recall that after I said that Night was hounding me, you asserted (baselessly) that "Epeefleche began doing what he accused night of"?

And that you subsequently wrote: "Epeefleche started hounding him back".

And that you then wrote: "the result of this should be ... both warned about hounding".

How can you make such a blatant, bald-faced mis-statements -- saying now that I "accuse me [Ed] of accusing you of hounding which i never have"? It is astonishing to me. Of course I wasn't hounding -- yet you baselessly accused me of it. And you now make yet another mis-statement of fact, when you flatly deny doing what you so clearly did.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:23, 21 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(talk page stalker) I have to agree with Epeefleche here, Ed. You explicitly said on ANI that Epeefleche engaged in the same behavior as NotBW. Never once did you actually present any evidence that Epeefleche followed Night around, specifically chose to comment in discussions Night was involved in, or in any way engaged in Wikihounding. Such criticisms are unwarranted. If you want to criticize Epeefleche for his prodding or other "deletionist" behavior, then fine (even though I would disagree with such a criticism, it is at least one based in facts), to accuse Epeefleche of hounding, or to accuse him of making up that accusation are simply improper. Qwyrxian (talk) 03:35, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your training exercises and kind words at my RfA, which was successful and nearly unanimous. Be among the first to see my L-plate! – Fayenatic L (talk) 14:10, 21 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You are a very active wikipedian, but please, butt out of a subject you do not know. This list IS poorly maintained, but there are legitimate entries here that need to be researched and have articles written, not arbitrarily deleted based on policy and your lack of knowledge. I have restored two such entries, one that had an article, the other that legitimately should have an article under WP:Athlete. Leaving a name here will possibly encourage an editor (maybe me but I've got my plate full too) to write an article about this subject. The point being, do further research before you delete content. Trackinfo (talk) 07:48, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please see WP:LISTPEOPLE, WP:V, WP:BURDEN, and WP:BLP. For a name of a person to be in a list of people, it should have a blue-link or a ref. The burden is on the editor seeking to restore the blp's name to a list -- and the name should not have been added to the list in the first place (I see some of these redlinks hark back to 2005), in accord with wp:LISTPEOPLE, if it lacks both a wp article and appropriate refs.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:52, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You participated in the discussion at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2012 January 24#Template:New York cities and mayors of 100.2C000 population. Be advised that I have opened Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2012 February 27#User:TonyTheTiger/New York cities and mayors of 100,000 population.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 05:21, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Epeefleche. Despite your hyperactivity, I think this is the first time I've had the pleasure to get in touch with you. I was just a little surprised at your rapid edit of the few red linked additions I made to the France section of the List of female architects yesterday on the basis of coverage on the French Wikipedia. I had taken the same approach with Germany a couple of weeks ago and found it very useful, not just for helping to get the job done (with the assistance of other editors too) but for allowing users in general to look at the articles in other languages. As you will see, all the German red links have now been covered by articles. I hope the same will also be true of the French within a couple of days. In any case, I'm really surprised that a bot added citation tags here rather than to dozens of other red links in similar lists such as List of Swiss architects where there are none at all! In any case, I was not too clear about what you wanted to suggest in your editing comment: was it no red links without non Wikipedia references or was it that you wanted the links to be directed at the corresponding French articles, e.g. fr:Manuelle Gautrand or Manuelle Gautrand (see French Wikipedia article)? Personally, it seemed to me more honest to be specific about the fact that all the red links were related to articles in the FR WP. Anyway, the important thing is to continue proper article coverage and that's what I've been trying to do for the past two or three weeks, already adding over 30 new articles so as to eliminate red links from the list. But thanks once again for your interest and encouragement. - Ipigott (talk) 14:05, 2 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. A few thoughts. First, please read wp:LISTPEOPLE. You should not add red-linked names to lists of people, without appropriate refs. Second, please read wp:V generally, as to the importance of verifiability, and especially wp:CHALLENGED. Our policies of sensitivity to living people also comes into play here. Fourth, as I mentioned in my edit summary, your bare statement that the redlinks have articles on the French wikipedia may be true at the time that you write it -- but you have zero control over another editor, any time subsequent, adding a new red-link that lacks an article on French wikipedia ... which would render your statement false and misleading. Finally, please note that while I generally take a liberal view vis-a-vis names added to notability lists if they have a blue-link to a foreign language wikipedia, a number of editors have a sharply different view, asserting (correctly, I have to say) that different wikipedia standards have different notability standards, and thus the existence of an article on the wp of another language does not by itself confer notability on any individual. In short, if you wish to continue to do the good work of filling out the list, I would suggest that the way to do it is not -- as you have done -- to add redlinks (including redlinks re BLPs) to lists of people, without any refs whatsoever, and without any links whatsoever ... that is at odds with wp:LISTPEOPLE (feel free to peruse the talkpage there to see how seriously that is taken ... some editors even take the position that one ref is not sufficient, and require multiple refs) and the other indicated guidelines and policies. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 16:41, 2 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I've removed the links as too busy at the moment to find refs and the servers are down every second minute. The three remainng articles will be completed tomorrow anyway. You are absolutely right about the other language Wikipedias: often no refs at all but the articles are nonetheless often indicative of fame. Quid the other lists without citations? - Ipigott (talk) 19:12, 2 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

On behalf of WP:CHICAGO, I would like to thank you for your contributions to Robert Dover (equestrian), which has fairly recently achieved WP:GA status.

--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:00, 18 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

On behalf of WP:CHICAGO, I would like to thank you for your contributions to Curtis Granderson, which has fairly recently achieved WP:GA status.

This user helped promote Curtis Granderson to good article status.

--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:02, 18 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Roshonara Choudhry is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Roshonara Choudhry until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 02:23, 6 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Failing to achieve consensus, he 'sneaked back' and removed terrorist term.

Hello,i've got 2 questions , first how can i change the status of a page into protected? Second how can put a reference in a article for e.g. in article Yas?(you know) i have a reliable source but i don't know how to put a reference for it.please answer in my talk page, thank you.Farshid7 (talk) 19:01, 30 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Tim Lincecum, an article that you may be interested in, has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the good article reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status will be removed from the article. —Bagumba (talk) 21:17, 7 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article MMM-2011 is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/MMM-2011 until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article.. Monty₈₄₅ 02:53, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at the edit history of List of gymnasts and the talk you appear to be interested in the topic. I hope you see the small changes I have made as positive. To me the FIG record link feels important on the simple basis that it is the official record of the gymnast's competitions (unless, of course, you know different). After head scratching and a failed experiment with footnoting, the table layout, painful as it is to create, looks to me as if it will provide the best result.

I've also removed the exclusion of non listed disciplines, something that struck me as odd.

I'm by no means a follower of gymnastics. I arrived in this area by happenstance, like so much of WIkipedia. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 11:23, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I just noticed you started editing again! It's good to see you back.  :) I, Jethrobot ^{drop me a line} (note: not a bot!) 20:03, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Greetings, Epeefleche. For the last couple of months, I've been working on standardizing and expanding the biography articles for U.S. Olympic swimmers. As part of my efforts, I've been cleaning up the redirects from past article renamings, and replacing redirect links with direct links to current article names. During this process, I stumbled across List of swimmers, and to be blunt, the reason for the article's existence as a stand-alone list in its present format escapes me. We already have lists of Olympic medalists, FINA world championship medalists, Pan Am Games medalists, Pan Pacific Games medalists, Commonwealth Games medalists, plus navbox footers for the champions each event of those games, plus categories for medalists and participants in the Olympics and other major regional games. There are also category break-outs by nationality, and by stroke and gender.

This list seems to have no particular purpose, no criteria for inclusion beyond being a notable swimmer, and is certainly no even close to being comprehensive in coverage. In short, this list seems to be completely redundant to better other better developed swimmer lists with better, more specifically defined criteria for inclusion. I have read your talk page comments to User:Lexein, and would ask you to share your thoughts as to what should be done with this unwieldy beast. IMHO, the present list has multiple notability and basic WP list criteria problems. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:40, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think you are commenting outside your domain of expertise. You had struck recipients of the Knight's Cross, who as holders aof the highest military award, are noteable. That is why I rewoked your change. If you had removed lesser "aces" I would not have opposed your change. MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:34, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, all of these people are notable. A simple Google Books search would have confirmed that, had you bothered to check. And by the way, it's generally considered rude to use templated warnings for someone who has been on the project for several years. Parsecboy (talk) 13:12, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Just on the topic of WP:DTTR, it's an essay, so it's the opinion of one or some editors; not a general consensus on what one should or should not do. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 14:11, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Agree w/Demi. I would point out, as well, that prior to the use of the template, I had sought to communicate with the reverter by edit summary, pointing to wp:LISTPEOPLE. The reverter reverted, however, without any edit summary whatsoever. I then reverted, again providing an edit summary, and in addition to using the template embedded in it the communication that the editor might: "Please note that in the article listing German aces you reverted material that had been deleted with the comment "del NN -- no wp article or appropriate independent RS refs -- per WP:LISTPEOPLE". Material in lists of people should be sourced to a bluelinked wp article, or to appropriate independent RS refs. Many thanks.". There was, of course, every effort made on my part to communicate with the reader in non-template personalized pleasant language, as well as using the template -- this was only met with the bare no-edit-summary revert, without any discussion as to the issue.

Parsecboy has now reverted with the somewhat non-illuminating edit summary: "Please don't do that," which also fails to shed any light as to why we should consider ignoring wp:LISTPEOPLE (as well as wp:v).--Epeefleche (talk) 20:29, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• The rule is that entries should be verified per wp:listpeople (as well, of course, as wp:v). The argument that "experts know it to be true" is not sufficient. The same with teh argument that "if someone other than the person who input the entry were to do the work, they would find references ..." WP:LISTPEOPLE requires quite clearly that we have a wp article on the person, or appropriate RS refs. --Epeefleche (talk) 20:19, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If you bothered to check any of these entries before you remove them, you would have quickly discovered they are notable individuals, many of whom should have their own articles. That no one has taken the time to create them yet does not mean you should be deleting them from the list. Perhaps you should spend more than a minute or two per list you go through and actually see if the entries you're deleting actually should be deleted. Parsecboy (talk) 21:24, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What I dislike here is this destructive attitude you are showing. Your behavior reminds me a bit of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. You demolish the article and later claim that I could have known better if I only I would have read "the rules". "Legally" you may be right but morally you are wrong! By your token of argumentation you could castrate half the articles on Wikipedia. Keep it up and you will make many friends here, you already made one. You don't have to bother and respond. Enjoy MisterBee1966 (talk) 22:56, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Is not a compendium of all the world's knowledge even more valuable than a new hyperspace bypass?

I think the circumstances under which castration is morally justified, are a completely different discussion. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:19, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Again, Parsecboy -- you seem not to agree with the settled approach of wp:listpeople. But it is clear. For your benefit and that of Mister, I've linked to it a number of times already — on your talk page, in my edit summaries, and in this discussion. It states:

"A person may be included in a list of people if all the following requirements are met:

• ... If a person in a list does not have an article in Wikipedia about them, a citation (or link to another article) must be provided to establish their membership in the list's group and to establish their notability...
• The person's membership in the list's group is established by reliable sources."

The deleted entries were added -- in the most recent instances, by both of you -- in contravention of wp:listpeople. Despite the fact that wp:listpeople had been highlighted to you. You added the entries without there being a wikipedia article on the individual (reflecting ipso facto the individual's notability), and without there being RS refs establishing their notability in a verifiable manner.

The onus is on the person who adds the information to satisfy wp:listpeople. It is not -- as you would prefer it be, on the person who points out that the editor adding the information failed to follow wp:listpeople. This has been discussed for years at the talkpage on wp:listpeople. If you like, feel free to raise it there yet again, if want to change the rule.

But the rule as it stands is as indicated above. For you to simply revert, in contravention of the rule -- without any edit summary, or with an edit summary that states "Please don't do that" -- may fall somewhat short of addressing the clear mandate of wp:listpeople that you should not add names to the list in the first place without there at minimum being a wp article on the person and/or RS refs supporting their notability and the appropriateness of their inclusion in the list.

The argument that "I am expert and know it to be true," and the argument that "I would prefer that you do the work I was obligated to do under wp:listpeople," are both unavailing. As is "I don't like it".

The emphasis on having refs and/or articles for entries on wp:listpeople is even stronger than the emphasis in general (as can be seen by comparing wp:v with wp:listpeople, though they work together), and we could no doubt discuss whether the rationales are ones that you would agree with after consideration -- no doubt they include the fact that lists of people are special magnets for those who find it fun to add inaccurate information. But this isn't a rule of my making, or my imagination, or a matter of editor preference ... the rule and all manner of discussion have supported the fact that entries such as the ones I deleted, bereft of both wp article and appropriate supporting RS refs (some editors insist that there be more than one ref, though I am not that conservative myself), is a clearly stated rule. I understand that you would like to make other editors do the work. But in fact the onus is on the person adding a name to such a list of people to supply that support. Best. --Epeefleche (talk) 23:47, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, I don't want to make others do the work. I want those who are flying through articles, deleting things willy nilly, to take the time and actually look a what they are deleting before they axe something. Jimbo's line about uncited material is not a license to delete anything without an inline citation. If a citation is missing, add a citation-needed tag, don't delete it immediately. Or better yet, fix it yourself. And best of all, when someone reverts you, you take it to the talk page, not revert them again. This is a collaborative project - try acting like it. Parsecboy (talk) 02:36, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The impact of your suggestion is to ignore completely wp:listpeople, as well as Wikipedia's content policies such as verifiability and no original research, and our notability guidelines.

The impact in turn of ignoring those policies is that you do in fact make others do the work that under wp:listpeople the person who adds the information is required to have done first -- to make sure that the entry complies with wp:listpeople.

The rule is crystal clear. Adding a name to such articles, where the name is a redlink, there is no related wikipedia article, and you fail to supply any RS refs whatsoever is not within what the community has decided is an appropriate course of editing. The rule is quite clear that the onus is on the editor who adds the material.

I understand that there are many articles -- including often lists of people -- where someone rightfully feels he/she is an "expert," the entry clearly belongs, and appropriate RS refs can in fact be added to the entry. That's fine. But the onus is on the person adding the material to do so.

If you would like to change the rule to "Hey, I Parsecboy want to add names to lists, and require Epee and other wp editors to look for appropriate RS refs before they delete the bare refs that I input in direct contravention of wp:listpeople", you would be well served to raise the issue on the wp:listpeople talkpage.

It is an issue, as you can see, that has been discussed for a long time, and the requirement has if anything been strengthened over the years (as I said, there are those who will require multiple independent RS refs for each name, let alone a link to a wp article). My approach of looking for at least either one independent RS ref or a wp article is a more relaxed approach than many of our colleagues have.

As far as the softer issues of collaboration goes -- I, as you know, left a clear edit summary, pointing to wp:listpeople. I was reverted, without any edit summary whatsoever. Zero discussion. I note with curiosity that despite your even-handed concern about communication, you have ignored this. I then communicated again. Again, with a clear edit summary. And in addition, a talk page message, which was even more fulsome and which also pointed to the very clear language in wp:listpeople. I was reverted once more -- with the edit summary that some might think slightly short on the "communication" and "discussion" front, of: "Please don't do that." I agree that discussion and communication is helpful in circumstances such as this. And that is why I sought to discuss the matter many times, even in the face of an approach that was somewhat different.

One last thought -- while you "know" that what you add to lists has supporting RS refs even if you've failed to supply them and thereby share them with the rest of us, other editors do not know that. You might consider taking the approach of understanding that much -- perhaps most -- of what is added in contravention of wp:listpeople is cruft and/or non-notable and/or self-promotion and/or a joke. Please do not feel insulted that your word, or that of an expert, was not taken (and, of course, the "I'm an expert" approach doesn't work on wp). Please view this through the prism of the multitude of list-people additions that are inappropriate. The existence of this problem may explain in part why the rule was forged to exist as it stands. The person adding the name, who has the greater interest, is in the best position to add the RS refs (or create the article), and the community has decided that it is not going to foist on the rest of the editors in the wp community the obligation of doing the research to see if the adder's entry is valid -- and then, of course, to take on the responsibility of adding the RS refs, to release other future readers of the need to research the subject to see if the red-link zero-ref entry is the truth or a farce.--Epeefleche (talk) 03:15, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

For as long as you've been on Wikipedia, you have a shockingly bad understanding of how this place works. First of all, quite a bit (probably a substantial majority) of Wikipedia does not have a source. That does not mean you go around deleting anything not directly sourced with an inline citation. Cutting away good material simply because no one has gotten around to providing a source yet is only adding to the work of people who are actually building the encyclopedia. Wikipedia is not a finished project. Deleting things that are halfway done simply because they're halfway done is fundamentally damaging to the project.

You also seem to fundamentally misunderstand WP:OR, if you're including it in this discussion. OR does not apply to all uncited material. It applies only to those things that are advancing an original line of thought that (and this is an important distinction) cannot be verified, not that it is not immediately verified.

WP:V only requires that material be verifiable, not that it necessarily be verified. There is a subtle yet important difference. Of course, we expect a higher standard at GA and above, but that's not the situation here. As I have said twice now (and you have continued to ignore), if you had simply taken the time to copy one of the names into Google Books, you would have found numerous reliable sources for each of those names. Re: your third paragraph: yes, the burden of evidence is on the person who wants to add the material. That still does not mean you have a license to slash and burn your way through lists because you're too lazy to actually see if the material is correct or not. If this was an AfD, you'd be laughed out for a complete failure to do so. Perhaps you should be spending more than a minute or two per list you go through.

Re: this: "much -- perhaps most -- of what is added in contravention of wp:listpeople is cruft and/or non-notable and/or self-promotion and/or a joke." - that's all well and good, but what I'm trying to tell you is you need to do a better job of sifting the wheat from the chaff. If you can't tell in a case like this, perhaps you're editing out of your depth.

As for discussing the issue, this talk we're having here only started after you were reverted twice by two different editors. Discussion via edit summary is not a good way to handle disputes. Parsecboy (talk) 13:10, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

wp:listpeople is quite clear. You should not, under it, be adding names to lists of people, where as here you do not link to any wp article, and do not supply appropriate RS refs. This has been discussed by the community at great length. You dislike it. You would prefer to add names to the list that are redlinks, and not add any refs, as you have done here. I understand that. If you wish to change it, you may wish to bring your thoughts to the wp:listpeople talkpage.

As to the discussion, as you know I pointed to the rule three times, and was reverted twice (once by you), without any substantive discussion in edit summary or otherwise. Edit summary is a great way to begin to convey rationale for a change. When I was reverted the first time by your fellow editor, it was without any discussion whatsoever -- despite my pointing to the rationale for the deletion. And your edit summary of "Please don't do that" did not even begin to address the substantive issue that was raised. Finally, the fact that you failed to take to task your fellow editor reverted without any discussion whatsoever is curious.

But, we're repeating ourselves. You dislike wp:listpeople, but wp:listpeople is clear. If you open a discussion at the talkpage of wp:listpeople, feel free to let me know and I will follow it (and perhaps join it) with interest. Best. --Epeefleche (talk) 19:15, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

LISTPEOPLE is meant to prevent every Tom, Dick, and Harry from adding their names to a List of people from the back side of nowhere, not to punch holes in lists with clearly defined scopes (and notable subjects, I might add, which you would have found out if you had bothered to check, but you're too busy ignoring me on that point).

"without any substantive discussion in edit summary or otherwise" - please explain to me how my comment to your talk page four minutes after reverting your edit constitutes a lack of substantive discussion.

I don't dislike LISTPEOPLE, I dislike your misuse of it based on a faulty understanding of the purpose of the guideline. Slavishly obeying the letter of the law but failing to grasp its spirit is not helpful to anyone.

In any case, since you're too busy playing games and refuse to listen to reason, I'm done here. Parsecboy (talk) 21:59, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

wp:listpeople is clear. As are the years of discussion of the reason for it, by the community, on its talk page. You dislike it. That's fine -- go to the talkpage, and start a discussion to change it to "when editors add redlinks, bereft of any RS ref support whatsoever, to lists of people, the onus is on not the editor adding the name but on the editor removing the name to research and assess the level of RS support if any for the entry ... and, if no reviewing editor ever adds the refs, of course this work should be done by all future editors who wish to assess the appropriateness of the entry." I'll be happy to follow the discussion. But, having read through and taken part in such talkpage discussions, I am of the opinion that I have a sense for what the community has in mind here. And, as sometime happens, the requirement of the rule is set forth quite plainly in the language of the rule. The community does not think it helpful for editors to add red-linked, zero-ref entries to lists of people, but requires that the editor adding such a name address the notability (let alone verifiability) issue in the manner stated in the rule.--Epeefleche (talk) 23:26, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I was wondering if you might, since you are interested in this article, help me with some legwork? The table format seems to be much better than a pure list, and it gives us FIG references, so I was wondering if you would consider having a go occasionally at a few tables there. I have a strong suspicion that those with no FIG references are unlikely to be notable at all, though the FIG listing is no guarantee of notability ether. It is, however a reference that a person of this name is a gymnast, so is an indicator of at least potential notability. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 08:01, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Fiddle/Timtrent. Kudos -- you are doing nice work on the list. I agree that the table format is superior. I don't think I've ever created a table myself, but obviously it allows for more information to be supplied, in a visually appealing manner. I also like the addition of some images to the right of the table -- and even where we have a table, we have room for more of those. I'll give adding a couple more a go. I also think it's ok that the article is in transition now, and not fully a table. Once it is fully a table, it is easier to sway those who add names to add them in table format. The FIG references are of course great, as they reflect a degree of verifiability even if they fall a bit short of guaranteeing notability. BTW, references to the Olympic performance website always guarantee notability, for wp purposes. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:24, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The easiest way to do this is to work in a sandbox with the FiG search page open in another tab. I've done all I can cope with today! it sends me cross eyed. if you're unfamiliar with tables, grab one form the article and paste it into your sandbox, then edit it. Where there are variances with the FIG and other records I'm using <ref group="note"></ref> pairs to differentiate between notes and real references. Ref groups are fun! Start with a tiny one, and see how you go. But your sandbox is your friend here.

What are your thoughts about the redlinked names, though? I put a comment on the article talk page about them. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 19:31, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've left a comment there, responding to your query. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 23:27, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That was quite an extraordinary amount of work. The thing that strikes me is how woefully incomplete the list is. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 21:30, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Nicely done. And yes -- a common malady of such lists, I'm afraid.--Epeefleche (talk) 05:46, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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```Buster Seven Talk 14:51, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Have I satisfied your reference and notability concerns? ClaudeReigns (talk) 20:14, 12 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Nice work. I've removed the tags on the article as out-dated; I assume nobody will disagree. Question -- do you think we should change the date format to dmy? I'm leaning yes. Also, two formats are used for his last name (one ending in y, the other in i), and we should I think decide on one. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 23:37, 12 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Dmy is fine...I guess I should reread MOS or some other reference to know the difference in preference. It seems nearly all the English refs were using "Bashar al-Shatti" as the correct spelling, but I will recheck and recommend a move based on sourcing over at the talk page. Thank you very much for your quick response :) ClaudeReigns (talk) 00:40, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ep - Welcome back, long time no see. I've tweaked a couple of your edits today and wanted to make you aware of a couple of formatting decisions made at WP:NBA that you may not have been aware of. First, the format for the college years shown in parentheses after a player's school is (XXXX-XXXX) (but with an endash), as opposed to (XXXX-XX). This is to mirror the format used in the club history section. The other relatively recent consensus was not to Wikilink countries in the "nationality" field. It's considered over linking now. Keep up the good work and good to see you again. Rikster2 (talk) 23:07, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Rikster. The second one I think makes good sense -- I think my overlink tool de-links most countries as well. The first, if memory serves, is not necessarily consistent with our approach to dates generally, or in other sports -- is that decision specific to basketball, and specific to college? I'll of course abide by whatever the consensus is, though frankly I think it unhelpful to include two digits each time that add zero to knowledge and detract from readability. If it's easiest to point me to where the consensus is reflected, I'll be happy to take a look. Nice to chat with you again. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 06:03, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the consolidation of basketball infoboxes was a very long, wide-ranging discussion that occurred over months on both the NBA and Basketball projects (not really a College Basketball issue as active NCAA players use the NCAA athlete infobox). Here is one of the bigger discussions, though I can't promise this specific issue is covered here. However, back in August I specifically asked about the college year date format here and got a response on the 6/8 digit issue. Ep, I have added this information to literally hundreds of articles over hours of time so I wanted to be sure I got the consensus right before doing so. I believe the basketball projects are the first to display years of play at the college level in the professional infobox (information I think is very useful), so there isn't much precedence there, but as I said the format mirrors how club tenures display in the club history part of the navbox, and the basketball decision is very consistent with baseball, American football and Association football in that regard. Hockey is the other major sport project, but you are probably aware that they like to set their own standards as opposed to creating consistency across projects. I wouldn't agree there is a readability issue with either the 6 or 8 digit approach - I think it's a personal taste issue. Hope this helps. Rikster2 (talk) 12:56, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Rikster. I'll wade through this -- thanks for taking the time to set it out for me. There certainly is a personal taste element to the extra two digits, but as well as a consistency with other formats issue, as well as a consistency with style guidelines elsewhere issue ... and IMHO there is also (but I'm not meaning to re-start a conversation already had) readability issue whenever we throw in extra data .. however small ... that adds nothing to our information. I believe that is the reason that many resume guides dictate the deletion of the needless digits -- and, of course, there is great sensitivity to readability when it comes to resumes, because readers tend to allot a fixed time to scanning the document. But I'm of course happy to follow the consensus, so will be interested to read what you were kind enough to gather for me. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 17:37, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

	The Original Barnstar
	For your commitment to WP:V! bobrayner (talk) 21:42, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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I see you started the long-needed cleanup of these pages; almost all of them are to some extent copyvio. I've been deleting the ones that are entirely copyvio in an obvious way, but in most cases it's a complicated mix of copyvio & paraphrase from various sources. In such cases, the simplest think to do is to look for a noncopyvio version earlier in the history to revert to--usually there's a clear point at which large amounts of content start being added. Normally I just revert, but if it's particularly bad I delete the later versions--If you want to do it, the simplest way might be to just ask me, since I am unfortunately familiar with this sort of article Otherwise, the officially recommended way to delete copyvio versions or to handle more complicated situations is to list them at copyright problems, but that process is so backlogged that if I can deal with a quick rewrite, sometimes I try to do that immediately--but nobody has to, and if you are feeling too frustrated by this awful mess that has accumulated, just list them. Either I or someone else will get there. DGG ( talk ) 00:38, 31 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Thanks. That's helpful. When the copyvios are looked at, do reviewers tend to look at the other articles started by the same editor? (If you happen to know the answer). I noticed that in many instances the copyvios are actually in the original creation. In some, though certainly not all, of those cases the article-creating editor has created a number of copyvio articles.--Epeefleche (talk) 00:45, 31 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(X! · talk)  · @181  ·  00:03, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Here is the last revision of the Corruption Perceptions Index chart before it was blanked. This chart was started in 2006.

I noticed your informed opinions at the talk page for Wikipedia:Copyright in lists. This essay should not be used to delete charts from Wikipedia. It is an essay, and not a guideline.

For more info see: Template talk:Corruption Perceptions/Corruption perceptions index#Data and copyright and the following talk sections. Your opinion there and/or at Wikipedia talk:Copyright in lists#This is an essay, not a guideline would be appreciated. --Timeshifter (talk) 06:26, 2 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Done.Epeefleche (talk) 15:20, 1 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I've put the text back , with a few sources that I've found after a quick search. (I have to get to bed early tonight). The rules, including WP:V, are not a suicide pact, and there is no deadline. Graham87 14:45, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Great. Thanks. A couple of points. What you point to is an essay, which contains the opinions of one or more editors, and may be a minority viewpoint; Essays are not wp policies or guidelines. Second, I would think it less than appropriate to even conflate that opinion to suggest that one should restore material that has been tagged as a violation the wp policy of wp:v for five years. But all is good that ends well. Have a great new year.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:38, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Letting you know of a concern I raised here about a DYK nomination. Carcharoth (talk) 03:26, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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I saw where you posted, like you wanted. I went with my gut. It's difficult when there are a limited number of criticisms from a wide array of sources, so I went with something general and darn the weasel. It may not be to your liking; that's just how I read the article. Drop by and comment if you have the time. Wikilove, ClaudeReigns (talk) 12:39, 14 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for adding your thoughts.--Epeefleche (talk) 01:58, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A kitten for you!

Maybe this kitty :D

ClaudeReigns (talk) 04:48, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

On behalf of WP:CHICAGO, I would like to thank you for your editorial contributions to Jason Kipnis, which has recently become a GA. --TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:49, 22 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

KTC (talk) 16:03, 22 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

	The Brilliant Idea Barnstar
	Thanks for your guidance. Way2veers (talk) 03:38, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

	The Barnstar of Good Humor
	Just wanted to say that this made me smile. – Philosopher Let us reason together. 07:09, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Two references which you have based much of the information you recently entered in the above-mentioned article have failed. I have used the same references in some of my articles and I know they will be removed if you do not correct them. Mayflower.com and Pilgram Hall. Mugginsx (talk) 19:07, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. Thanks, but I'm confused. First -- no need to leave a talkback notice on my page, and then leave the notice on my page. Second -- I did not add any references to that article, nor did I add information to it as you suggest. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:39, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Epeefleche! Thanks for the reminder. I will try to give editors more time. Way2veers (talk) 19:35, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Great. Many thanks.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:36, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Epeefleche, thank you for your support during my recent RfA. If I can be of assistance to you in the future, as an editor with a legal background or otherwise, please let me know. Regards, Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 11:13, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Pleasure. We could in my view often use the input of attorneys. If we were to perform brain surgery by consensus, or build buildings that way, without proper input from experts, we would be similarly challenged to achieve the best results. Sometimes some training and some ability to know where to look for the answers is a boon. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 03:20, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Please feel free to ping me any time you require some "legal thinking" in your Wikipedia work. I'm happy to help any way I can. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 14:58, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there. Please consider not PRODing or not AfDing non notable primary (elementary) and middle schools. Instead, in order to save time and user resources, please consider redirecting them yourself according to the long standing precedent documented at WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES. To do this, please ensure that the school is at least listed on the target page which should generally be the article about the school district (in the USA) or the article about the school's location. Please remember to include the {{R from school}} on the redirect page as it automatically populates an important category, and if you need any help, don't hesitate to ask me on my talk page. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 23:42, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've considered that approach, as you may be aware. I've also not seen fit to be so bold as to do so, for reasons expressed. I recognize that what you point to is an essay, and is not a policy or guideline itself. Were it to be reflected in a policy, I of course would have a different view. I'm happy to work on some form of that with anyone who has desire to do so. In the meantime, given the fact that it is just an essay, and that I've failed to see the level of consensus at such AfDs that would make me comfortable taking such step, I prefer to seek community consensus, rather than take the unilateral action that you suggest. If you feel it is so clear, I imagine you will take speedy action at such AfDs. But I don't see it as sufficiently clear or sufficiently clearly directed by our notability policy, so while I've carefully considered the suggestion I'm not myself inclined to take such unilateral action. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 15:19, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

WP:OUTCOMES may be an essay but it is not one that expresses opinion. As far as school notability is concerned it merely documents a very clearly accepted practice - one that is confirmed by literally 100s of redirected non notable primary and middle schools, and also demonstrated by the results of your previous school AfD campaign. None of the very many discussions to get his practice changed have gained consensus. Knowing the likely outcome therefore, to continue to make such multiple school AfDs is disruptive. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:29, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I has understood that an essay is the opinion of one or more editors. Which may or may not reflect a consensus opinion. I'm understand that many essay assert that they reflect practice. I also understand that AfDs in this area attract different opinions. Some people believe such articles should be deleted, and not redirected. And in truth -- I've not heard why that is not the better course. For reasons discussed above, and for a year. They may be right. And some school AfDs do in fact end in delete, after community discussion. Others editors prefer redirects. Others prefer merge. Even (surprisingly) at times of text that fails wp:v. Sometimes, some such articles are kept. I would be happy to join a collaborative effort to generate a policy in this regard. I raised this above, and you haven't responded. I also asked why -- if it is so clear -- you do not speedily close such and AfD. You may be comfortable bypassing community consensus given these facts, and urging me to act without a clear policy on schools on which to base my action. I'm not. I prefer to seek community consensus, rather than take the unilateral action that you suggest. But if it would help streamline the effort, I'm happy to work on a policy with you. Does that sound good?--Epeefleche (talk) 02:42, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It sounds WP:POINT to me. The essay is a page that clearly documents a practice without expressing an opinion, and has been contributed to by a handful of 218 ediors since 2005. You have already sought your community consensus through your 100s of school AfDs and seen how they have closed. You are welcome to start yet another RfC on the practice documented at Outcomes. FWIW, there are 553 in the category 'R from school' which does not include possibly as many again where the closer has failed to add the template. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:04, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry if it sounds that way to you. If you AGF, it is difficult to understand how you could reach that bad faith conclusion. It is not pointy. I've offered to work with you on a policy. For over a year. You've not seemed so inclined. Our essays are full of non-policy statements that purport to reflect practices. Sometimes, they say "this is not an opinion that x happens, it is a fact that x happens." In any event, as I said, I've seen vocal editors with different views. You haven't responded to that, but you must have seen the same. That is also a fact. I've also seen some keeps, merges, and deletes. That is a fact. I'm disinclined to, knowing that, take unilateral action and redirect articles. So are you -- or you would speedy delete them at AfD. Or before. When they are are not put into policy, it is generally because there are editors who disagree with it -- certainly when it comes to notability. That's my experience at the Project. But let's work through that, and make it a policy. I'm happy to work collaboratively on it. And I'm happy to be persuaded as to the advantage of redirect to deletion -- especially in the case of redirects to pages that are just lists of schools, without any information about them. I'm open, and I'm happy to work with you to make this happen, and happy to abide by any policy at the notability page in this regard. We have policies on things as unusual as certain sports such as Gaelic ones -- certainly, this subject deserves a policy. It would be more efficient for all concerned. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 03:17, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Before accusing people of bad faith I suggest you do some research. Nobody is probably more aware than I am of the dozens of discussions to get this practice either changed or established as a formal guideline, and I have contributed in depth to all of them. The end result is always the same: No consensus. What you would would become aware of if you check ot out, is that I have no personal opinion on the matter of school notability and FWIW, I don't care what the consensus would be if one were reached, and as always, if it were, I would be happy to apply any new policy and use my tools appropriately. What you also do not seem to have understand is that disrupting the work of Wikipedia to make backdoor attempts to get policy changed is, well, disruption. I suggest you actually take time to read WP:POINT and take note of the possible sanctions. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:40, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I said that if you AGF on my part, rather than bad faith on my part, you would not view my effort to collaborate with you and others as pointy. As we do, at times, we mis-communicate. I also don't understand how, if it is an inelecutable conclusion that it is appropriate for me to boldly redirect such articles, as you urge me to do -- you can suggest it is consensus that I should do so but at the same time say we would be unable to reach consensus on a policy discussion. How can that be? Wouldn't I suffer the argument by all those who will not agree with such a policy that there is no consensus? I'm confused. Either there is consensus support for redirecting such articles, or there is not. You suggest I act as though there is, based on the common but non-uniform result, and yet indicate there is so much disagreement with that approach that we can't get a policy in place to that effect.

In any event, I've offered to collaborate with you, based on your statement that the essay in question reflects consensus (if that is what you are saying), to have the policy reflect it. Perhaps this time we can get a policy passed. That would make sense. I've also said, as you know, that I would be happy to apply that consensus, whatever it might be. I've also asked you more than once about redirects, and would be interested in your thoughts. And I'm not disrupting anything. And I'm not making a backdoor effort to get policy changed. I'm happy for policy to remain the same, or be changed, but I'm happy to work on creating a policy reflecting consensus. There is zero pointy at all. I don't even know what point you think one could be making. I'm simply cleaning up. Would you prefer that I list somewhere those articles that I think might be non-notable, so someone bolder than I could consider deleting them? If that would make you happier, fine. Also, you haven't explained why if it is so clear that these should be redirected, that you don't just redirect them speedily. I have no point to make; I'm just trying to clean things up, at the same time as I create wp-compliant articles and text. If you were assuming good faith, I expect you would listen to what I have said to you now more than once on this point, and not assume that I have bad faith.--Epeefleche (talk) 03:54, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You don't appear to have properly read a word of what I have said in my posts above. If you want the practice changed, you are welcome to start yet another perennial RfC - in case you didn't know, that's the way we do things here. It's your prerogative, but you will almost certainly be wasting your time just as you are with your persistent nominations for AfD. As I said, you would be well advised to read all the previous discussions before you embark on your campaign; there were several more last year. I'm not interested in leading yet another attempt to obtain an impossible consensus and it is not bad faith on my part that I am not prepared to waste the community's time by starting or helping to start another one. That said, I don't think there is much to be gained by pursuing this discussion. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 04:21, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I read every word. And just re-read them. I've posed some questions above (and before) that you haven't responded to. Your answers, if you wish to give them, might help me understand some of these issues better. I'm certainly not as familiar with what your refer to as attempts at impossible consensus. But, as I indicate above is one of my series of questions, I don't understand why that lack of consensus you point to is not an indication that I would be foolhardy and acting in a non-consensus matter if I were to do exactly what you urge me to do -- impose redirects for these articles, when as you say it has been impossible to gain consensus for that as policy. --Epeefleche (talk) 04:30, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Creating AfDs when you are fully aware of the most likely outcome is disruptive. Start an RfC if you are so concerned. I don't care one way or the other what the outcome is is, but if there is a consensus I will abide by it just as I practice the existing precedent which as I stated above, has been solidly established by literally hundreds of AfD closures whether you are able to accept or believe it or not. That is the last I have to say on this here. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 04:42, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think the most likely outcome of any AfD that I start is that the stand-alone article will be deleted. I probably have a similar result with all types of AfD subjects. I don't -- given what you indicated is the impossibility of gaining consensus on this issue for a policy -- feel it appropriate to take a non-consensus bold action such as you suggest. It does not feel collegial, or appropriate, given that I know there is difficulty gaining consensus for a policy to do precisely that. Perhaps that is why you do not speedily redirect such articles when they are at AfD? Please tell me if there is another reason.

I'm happy to work with you or anyone else on seeking to establish such a policy in a collaborative fashion. But I gather from what you say that you do not have such an inclination, because you believe it will be impossible to gain consensus to redirect such articles if I seek to have such a policy established.

I, like you, am happy applying in practice any policy that is established on the issue.

I am also happy to post those articles that I think should be either deleted on a page, so bolder editors can redirect them on their own if they see fit. I offered that before; you did not respond.

I still have the other questions that I posed to you, such as what the benefit might be of a redirect to a zero-information-about-the-school page, over a deletion of the page.--Epeefleche (talk) 04:55, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Although I have the tools, it is extremely rare that I close AfDs except perhaps to undo and re-close wrongly concluded NACs. Having !voted on over 1,000 with an accuracy of 87.5%, I feel my comments instead are more valuable in ensuring that the right closure is reached. Before you get the wrong impression again, I will however hasten to add that I have physically deleted well over 3,000 pages without a single issue other than about 20 userfications. For the questions you asked that you feel have remained unanswered, do your research and seek those answers in the dozens of debates over the notability of schools and what to do with the non notable ones. I won't be continuing this discussion here. Perhaps you might instead try to engage in discussion with some other extremely experienced admins who apparently share my stance on the matter. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:16, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps, if you are convinced that such an action would be appropriate even though it would be impossible in your view to attain consensus support for such a position, it would streamline things for you to exercise that tool. You can do that at some AfDs, and still !vote at others that are of a different ilk.

I've done research on the redirect issue and posed the question to a number of those who support it, and have not received any response that clarifies to me why it is in fact superior to a delete. But I've remained, to date, open to either approach. Even while not understanding why some editors see great value in redirecting to a page which in turn ... simply lists the name of the school that was input as the search term ... as well as some other schools.

BTW, that's a laudable AfD accuracy percentage. I actually think we should make some use of such percentages; perhaps considering whether the bottom 5% in accuracy are non-consensus editors whose !voting should be curtailed. Would be interested in your thoughts on that.--Epeefleche (talk) 05:25, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Theatre

Hi. Please don't change "Theatre District" to "Theater District". The vast majority of legit theatres in Manhattan and New York City use the older spelling. Thanks. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:14, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• See consensus here (a page that you just edited, in fact), WP:UCN, and WP:ENGVAR.--Epeefleche (talk) 23:41, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You're just floundering around on a subject you don't know shit about

You edited Morosco Theatre, and its just an article to you, but it happens to be the first Broadway theatre I did a show at. Go edit something you understand. Beyond My Ken (talk) 09:24, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

What in the world are you talking about?

I made these edits to the article. Where is the floundering you accuse me of? What in that edit do you feel suggests a paucity of knowledge, resulting in a deficient edit? Rather than an improvement?

And what is your comment about, to the effect that I "don't know shit" about the subject? And that "its just an article to [me]." What in my dearth of knowledge impeded the accuracy of my edit? What is wrong with the article just being an article to me? Isn't that normal?

And what's the point of "it happens to be the first Broadway theatre I did a show at"? Are you suggesting you own the article? And others, who do not have a personal involvement with the subject of the article should, as you put it "go edit" articles other than ones as to which you have an attachment?--Epeefleche (talk) 09:45, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"I'm curious" you say, that the New York Times called it the Mark Hellinger Theater - well, they fucked it up, because before it was sold to be church it was the Mark Hellinger Theatre. Face it, you really don't know anything about this subject, and you're just hoping against hope that some evidence will come to light to support your position. Well, I'm here to tell you that I've spent the lasyt 30 years of my life working in the theatre in New York City (Broadway, Off-Broadway and Off-Off-Broadway) and it's irrelevant if the spell-checker flags "theatre" as being a misspelling, that's what it's called here. If you had a semblence of a clue, you'd know that. Beyond My Ken (talk) 09:50, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You really are clueless, aren't you? Pity. Beyond My Ken (talk) 09:51, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You haven't responded to my above questions.--Epeefleche (talk) 09:54, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

February 2013

Your recent editing history at New York Hippodrome shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. Being involved in an edit war can result in you being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.

To avoid being blocked, instead of reverting please consider using the article's talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. See BRD for how this is done. You can post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection. I hate to use templates in this situation, but the two of you need to cut it out ASAP. I suggest you both walk away from the article for a couple of days (✉→BWilkins←✎) 10:28, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for dropping by. As you can see, BMK deleted RS-supported material (5 refs, directly following the deleted material). Without an edit summary that explained why. I restored it (revert 1). With an edit summary ("Please do not delete sourced information"). I followed that by opening talkpage discussion ("I would ask BMK to not delete sourced information, as he just did here.").

BMK responded by a second time deleting the same RS-supported material. With the following edit summary: "rem unsou4rced information from an editor who appears to be unaware that "thehate". He then (and only then) responded on the talkpage "What is your sourced information?". I responded to him on the talkpage: "The footnotes that directly follow, and support, what you just deleted.". He has not self-reverted.

In short, I made one revert (I'm not sure why you call that an edit war on my part). Left a clear edit summary. Left two clear talkpage messages. The material BMK has repeatedly deleted is RS-sourced. Five refs. Immediately following the material he continues to delete.

I certainly don't want to edit war. And don't want to needlessly escalate this to a noticeboard. But the facts are pretty stark here, the RS-supported material has been removed, and I think it would nice if it were restored and were not again deleted without legitimate reason.

For background of similar issues today, look at the thread immediately preceding this one. And at the mention here of similar problems, across more than one article.--Epeefleche (talk) 10:49, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, you are a little pissant.....

...aren't you? [77] Fuck you, asshole. Your Asperger's is not a "get out of jail free" card. Beyond My Ken (talk) 11:37, 10 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• BMK -- This post by you follows (among other similar posts) your above post here. I understand that you probably didn't mean to cause me pain, but I feel that this and your prior posts were hurtful and uncivil. I've tolerated them in the past. But you have simply continued, with this most recent post. Please strike out your uncivil comments. Thank you.--Epeefleche (talk) 02:20, 11 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

MOS is a *guideline*

and not policy, and need not be followed robotically. WP:IAR allows us leeway to improve things if we can. Do not edit war over style formatting, it's not exempt from 3RR. Just don't go there. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:16, 4 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You are the one edit-warring. You keep reverting from the first format chosen in the article. Which was completely appropriate. And what MOS calls for. There is zero reason to ignore MOS. And to change it from the first format used in the article, to boot. IAR is not license to ignore MOS without any good reason, just because you like it another way, and edit-war to change the format from the original one. For what appears to be no logical reason -- you are just adding needless words, that add nothing, and are non-MOS.--Epeefleche (talk) 02:18, 4 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Epeefleche. You are invited to join WikiProject Cleanup, a WikiProject and resource for Wikipedia cleanup listings, information and discussion. To join the project, just add your name to the member list. Northamerica1000(talk) 14:29, 24 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Thanks for signing on with the project, and feel free to post articles for clean-up there! Northamerica1000<sup>(talk)</sup> 22:44, 24 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Epeefleche! Just dropping you a note to let you know that {{wikify}} has been deprecated in favor of more specific templates, such as {{underlinked}}. Since the release version of AWB is still automatically adding {{wikify}}, I suggest you install the latest SVN snapshot instead, which has a lot of fixes in it. Thanks, and happy editing! GoingBatty (talk) 02:51, 26 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Klugey, I see. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 04:51, 26 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure how to use wiki and hopefully i'm not causing any problems by sending you a message. I saw you added a lot of information to the Assyrian people page and was wondering if you could add my father to the list. His name is Edison David http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edison_David and he already has a Wiki page I asked someone else to build. If you can do this and need any info or pics from me let me know, I am willing to help how ever possible.

Thomas

Done (at relevant list).--Epeefleche (talk) 22:07, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Epeefleche. The RFC/USER discussion at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Epeefleche has been closed.

The outcome was: There is a clear consensus here on two main points: a) that Epeefleche is broadly correct to remove unsourced content; b) that Danjel has often acted wrongly in restoring unsourced content.
There was also a clear consensus that Danjel had previously been made aware of the community's support for the core policy of WP:V, and had previously been advised at ANI to desist from reinstating unsourced material.
The result was that Danjel's opening of this RFC amounted to shooting themself in the foot. The consensus is that Epeefleche has acted correctly in support of WP:ONUS, and the problem here is with Danjel's conduct; there was strong support for describing this conduct as WP:HOUNDING.

-- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:33, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I responded to your comment at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Juwan Howard/archive5.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 04:18, 3 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I redirected his article to the TV show article because it's clear he's not notable as an MMA fighter. He has none of the 3 top tier fights required to meet WP:NMMA. I thought redirecting the article was better than having it deleted, but I can put it up for AfD, if you prefer. I would prefer that you remove your reversion, but that is your decision. Papaursa (talk) 02:18, 18 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• I would suggest that if you believe it is merge-worthy, you propose a merge. AfD is not for merges, but for deletions.--Epeefleche (talk) 02:57, 18 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I was originally going to delete the article, but I found a place to redirect it. I think it's a redirect, as opposed to a merge. Do you object to the redirection and, if so, why? Papaursa (talk) 03:01, 18 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, so you did. I'm not sure why. At minimum, it is a merge IMHO. I'll take a closer look, but it appears to meet GNG. It does not have to meet NMMA.--Epeefleche (talk) 03:04, 18 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I would say he doesn't meet GNG because his coverage is routine sports reporting, as described in WP:NOTNEWSPAPER. You may well be aware of the contentious nature of the MMA discussions, however certain things seem to have been agreed on by consensus. One of them is that fight results and pre and post fight interviews are routine sports reporting and do not show notability. Papaursa (talk) 03:09, 18 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I started to look, and will look more over the next couple of days. A simple fight result (x beat y) is not sufficient, but as in all sports competitions more in depth coverage does suffice, and at first glance this seems to be promising in terms of satisfying GNG.--Epeefleche (talk) 04:39, 18 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I looked at the sources you added and they seem like routine sports coverage to me. However, I'm going to leave the article alone for a while so you can try to improve it. I appreciate your efforts, if if I disagree with you about his notability. Papaursa (talk) 23:29, 18 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Really? I've added more and will look further at this, but I'm a bit surprised. Though I do recall us being on opposite sides of interpreting GNG at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Eskrimadors, which closed as a keep. I'll ask the sysop who was the other active editor in that discussion to look at this talkpage string--perhaps he will disagree with me.

Certainly, some of the coverage is passing. But other coverage is more in depth -- sometimes focusing only on his fight with one other fighter. Or on him. Routine coverage is material such as sports scores. The coverage here goes way beyond that.

Furthermore, what we have here is poster child for diverse sources -- as the sources' languages run from English to Spanish to Polish to Hebrew, from sources based in various continents around the world.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:07, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• I was invited to stop by, take a look, and comment. A redirect to a tangent-ally related topic does not serve the project, no more than would redirecting Lawrence Olivier to Stage actor. While such a redirect has some arguable minor merit, it detracts from a reader's understanding of the redirected topic. WP:BEFORE might have shown the world-wide, somewhat-more-than routine, coverage of this individual, as shown by Epeefleche's work expanding the article since reversing the redirect.[78] Another consideration is that the various SNGs do not "trump" the GNG. Various notability guidelines are intended to supplement, not supplant, each other. As we have sources speaking directly and in some detail about the individual, the shown world-wide-interest in an Israeli MMA fighter is more than the "routine" or local coverage. The primary notability guideline is the GNG. Only if a topic fails the GNG, are we encouraged to consider various SNGs. Only if a topic fails both the GNG and an applicable SNG, do we find a failure of WP:N. Important note here is that an SNG does not mean we declare the GNG as irrelevant and ignorable. Ad while the original article was quite stubby, diligent effort by Epeefleche has resulted in a nicely encyclopedic B-class article that serves Wikipedia and its readers. Schmidt, <sup>MICHAEL Q.</sup> 11:12, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

		Silk Purse Award
		I am both pleased and honored to present you with the Silk Purse Award in appreciation for your superb improvements to the Ido Pariente article... taking a stub that did not properly inform a reader and building it into something that far better serves both the project and its readers,[79] essentially changing what was seen as a sow's ear into a terrific silk purse. As your improvements were more than a 15x expension, I encourage you to now nominate this with DYK for mainpage. Well done! Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 02:01, 20 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

My recommendation would be to take the discussion to either the basketball/NBA talk page or an MOS talk page (if one exists) with a note inviting basketball editors to join. As I pointed out, the format isn't just basketball, it's used in association football as well (another sport whose seasons span 2 calendar years). I honestly don't care about format, I care about consistency. The proposal would be received best if you volunteered to be part of the solution should the format be changed - in other words be willing to go through and change some of the literally thousands of articles this would impact. Rikster2 (talk) 11:31, 21 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yep. I think it is a MOS issue, that transcends the remit of any one subject-specific wikiproject (and, as you point out, impact more than one wikiproject; they also have results with regard to consistency that go beyond the wikiprojects' areas of focus). The MOS that already covers it the issue is WP:Date. It is now as you suggest raised on that talkpage, and editors of some relevant wikiprojects have I understand been posted as to the discussion.

And we typically in MOS look for consistency -- such as consistency between different sports (at minimum) and between infoboxes and tables and texts. Furthermore -- the 2010-11 format, if you look (for basketball) at NBA.com, as well as at Euroleague, is pretty clearly the preferred approach to a 2010-2011 format. Which makes any decision to go with the non-standard format puzzling. It is also the preferred format and more common format in other sports, and across all subjects generally, as reflected in gsearches. Plus -- there is no sense in adding extraneous digits that add zero info ... we may as well just type in "la la la la" in the middle of articles.

I'm a bit baffled at the logic of anyone advocating the longer approach -- it seems not to be the preferred format of any relevant sport that I've looked at, or of MOS, so I don't know why they would change articles to a less-accepted approach in the first place. Did they not look at the MOS, as a starting point? Did they not do a google search to see what the most common approach was? But sure, I'll be happy to be part of the clean-up when the issue is solidified, as already reflected in MOS. It will be easiest if it can be done in automated fashion, rather than digit-by-digit changes. And, as always, a bot solution would be even better.--Epeefleche (talk) 14:50, 21 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Guys, the issue is not whether we use the "2010−11" convention for a single sports season in text and article titles. As far as I know, the sports projects already do that uniformly. No one is arguing otherwise. The issue under discussion, and the sole issue in contention, is how to handle linked seasons in the player infobox. I might also add a second subsidiary issue: whether league season articles should be linked in the player infoboxes at all -- but I will leave that for others. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 15:01, 21 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

MOS is consistency-driven, among other things. What possible reason can there be to create inconsistencies between infoboxes, on one hand, and text and tables, on the other? And between them and what the sports official highest-level league websites do? And between them and what is done generally? And while I can see the common sense detriment of adding needless digits that impart zero information -- what is the possible benefit from a common sense perspective? This strikes me as an easy one. Finally, its not an issue for what individual sports wikiprojects do -- we don't have different MOSs for different wikiprojects. That also would cut against consistency; that why we have MOS, which covers issues that are broader than any one or two wikiprojects.--Epeefleche (talk) 15:37, 21 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Epee, unlike many sports editors, I am intimately familiar with MOS and its purposes. On that score, you're preaching to the choir. I suggest you consider the "politics" of the situation carefully, however. If you want to change the current approach to sports infoboxes, I would urge you to do more explaining . . . the top-down approach so often exhibited by MOS regulars only leads to resistance. This may be a "resolved" issue at MOS, but you have hundreds of regular sports editors who do not understand the issue from your perspective. You need to explain it to them, gently and diplomatically. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 15:50, 21 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Rikster (I believe) and I both spend more time on sports articles than on MOS. I hope he does not think anything I said was un-gentle or undiplomatic. What more explaining do you believe necessary?--Epeefleche (talk) 16:03, 21 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Epee, Rikster is one of the more sophisticated and most experienced sports-centric editors. He's a big boy, and given time, will accept a new approach if it is an improvement over the old approach. Many sports editors take their cues from a handful of de facto project leaders like Rikster. There are dozens of others who regularly work on basketball articles; hundreds when you include American football, baseball, hockey, and college sports. They are the ones who need to be convinced. Peter Coxhead, who is one of the most collegial of regular participants at MOS, referred to the current NBA player infobox formatting as "idiotic." That comment and related attitudes represent a serious faux pas in coming to a lasting resolution. These sorts of changes need to be marketed, not dictated. The soul of any style guide is voluntary compliance, not roughshod enforcement. When MOS mandates something that is different from the current majority practice, then there is a burden on the proponents of the change to sell it. Otherwise, we get another ongoing feud and a lot of disaffected/alienated editors who were previously doing good work. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:18, 21 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I see; you are concerned about Peter's tone. No doubt he meant that to him it made zero sense. You could tell him that you think that tone is too harsh and preachy; of course, he may find your comment preachy as well. But while I don't know in particular what irked him, if it was this issue then I get why he would be frustrated. There are principles on the side of 6 digits: a) MOS, b) avoid needless words (digits)/brevity is the soul of wit; c) common usage (across not only ghits in general, but the specific sports league websites you mentioned); d) common sense. There seems to be little rationale if any offered in the other direction. And what you refer to as the "current majority practice" -- honestly, I first heard of it recently, alluded to by Rikster above, and I've edited thousands of sports articles for many years now. If editors have never heard of MOS, and have never considered common usage, and have never looked at the NBA and Euroleague websites but mistakenly believe they reflect dates in a different format -- someone should politely inform them of these facts. You seem like a good person to do that.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:57, 21 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the compliment, Epee. My point was not to single Peter out; as I said, Peter is usually one of the more diplomatic, less confrontational MOS participants in my personal experience. My larger point was to suggest that people need to understand the MOS rule on point, and they need to see how its application would work in context. Proponents on the other side need to understand that present practice is the majority practice, the MOS rule notwithstanding. In large part that's an educational process, followed by a conscious decision to adopt or reject the application of the rule in the particular context. That process has begun to take place right now, as members of the various sports projects begin to engage on the issue on the MOS talk page, and as regular MOS participants engage and participate. The trick, as I see it, is to lower the level of rhetoric while that dialog takes place.

This issue may or may not get resolved this week; so be it. I've been a part of some big formatting changes for the various sports projects over the last three years, and when you're dealing with a dozen or more sports projects, hundreds of editors, and tens of thousands of articles that requires a certain amount of, well, "diplomacy" -- for lack of a better word. And remember, this doesn't affect just NBA articles, but also those for the NFL, MLB, NFL, association football, college football, college basketball, and numerous others that utilize four-digit years in their infobox year spans. Ultimately, it may be that a uniform change gets made, or a non-uniform exception gets recognized. Personally, I can see both sides of the issue.

One thing you may want to consider: what are the benefits of linking the season articles in the infobox anyway? Are those "high-value" links? As far as I can tell, what's driving the present support for the use of four-digit years in the infoboxes is the perceived need that all linked seasons appear uniformly formatted . . . . Think about it. By and large, you've done your part by starting the conversation. Regards, Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 21:53, 21 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• As you've suggested, I've at the talkpage laid out some of the issues as I see them, and points made on both sides.

One failing I see in the conversation is the unusual degree of subjective "ILIKEIT" reasoning. Sometimes it is admitted to. Sometimes it appears to be just below the surface. Sometimes it is masked by assertions (voiced as FACTS) that lack diffs to reflect whether the assertions are valid. Many times those are accompanied by some claim of expertise (e.g., "I edit many articles", "I edit many basketball articles", "I know what readers find normal-looking"). While at times it is difficult to find support for statements, those such as "adding extra digits that impart zero information makes it more readable" is both counter-intuitive and at odds with style books such as that of Strunk and White, which say precisely the opposite. Similarly, its quite evident if one checks actual usage that the MOS-compliant format is the leading one as reflected: a) in ghits generally, b) in basketball (on both sides of the pond) and hockey and American football official league websites, c) in wikipedia generally, and d) in wikipedia basketball articles generally. This has been overwhelmingly reflected with diffs. Bald, un-supported, and possibly baseless assertions as to "present majority practice" are rather unconvincing, and appear to be "reaching" when there is such diff evidence to the contrary. And are of lesser moment in any event -- as I said, if all tiddlywinks articles were ALL CAPS .... that would not be a deciding factor (I would hope), when weighed against everything else.

And yes -- this issue goes beyond sports articles. Think, for example, companies that have fiscal years that do not start on January 1. It is a project-wide issue.

Perhaps most dumbfounding to me is that editors are suggesting: a) that infoboxes should have 8 digits, but that b) text should have 6 digits. Not only is that remarkably at odds with a core aspect of MOS -- consistency within articles. I can't imagine the rationale that would drive one to say in this case that what is preferable in the text, is not preferable in the infobox. Especially when it is shorter, and the infobox emphasizes brevity.

As to linking the years ... I don't care overly at this point. But I see little value. For the same reason I see little value to link to "New York City." I'm guessing that those links don't get clicked that much. And if we have a sea of blue with overlinking in conflict with wp:overlink, we detract from the effectiveness of linking in the first place.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:16, 21 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Your MOS summary of the issues is a fair starting point. But remember, we're not really talking about single sports seasons, or single fiscal years, which span two calender years. We're talking about multi-year, multi-season coach and player tenures. Those are two closely related, but different propositions. As I see it, what is driving this is the need to uniformly format the individual season links in the infobox. If you can resolve that, you've unwound the core knot of contention. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 22:28, 21 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure why you say "We're not really talking about ..." Who is the we? We -- in the sense of the person who started the discussion, and the person who created the revert in question -- was clearly talking about both. Check the very first entry in the string that started the discussion, and raised the issue. Check the very first diff.

I don't think I've even seen any editors assert "let's in the infobox say he played for team x in 2000-01, and team y in 2001-2003." And if they did ... first of all there is the obvious point that they would be now advocating inconsistencies within the infobox itself (which would be astounding). Apart from that, its a distinction without a difference. The points made, on both sides, are precisely the same. Adding extraneous digits that impart zero information add nothing to 2000-20002, just as they add nothing to 2000-01.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:38, 21 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for letting me know about User:OGBranniff. Quale (talk) 00:19, 30 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

		The Article Rescue Barnstar
		For finding so many excellent sources on Ralph Gracie, thus saving him from certain deletion. Luchuslu (talk) 20:29, 1 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A tag has been placed on Athlon Sports Communications requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about an organization or company, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please read more about what is generally accepted as notable.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, you can place a request here. Uncletomwood (talk) 09:41, 8 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As one of the supporters of a related proposal in the 2013 RfC on RfA reform, you are invited to join the new WikiProject for RfA nominators. Please come and help shape this initiative. Regards, Espresso Addict (talk) 21:58, 8 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am sorry,guess i need a bit more time... thank you for your criticism,i will take it positively Uncletomwood (talk) 08:37, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Epeefleche

analog pussy was always under the ownership and management of jiga & myself, - jinno.

a few months ago, after major personal & professional disputes, - jiga has "kidnapped" all the main websites of analog pussy, - which we were both managing & operating together, - including analog-pussy.com / analog pussy on youtube, facebook, myspace, etc. - and even analog pussy on cdbaby, where we were selling analog pussy music together. - she simply changed the pass words of all those pages, - which we were sharing in the past.

since then - we are both running two separate entities - which are both called - "analog pussy".

jiga has added her girlfriend eva - to her version of "analog pussy", - and is releasing past recordings which were produced mainly by me & which i claim to be my property. - jiga has also produced a new video clip to an old analog pussy track, - which is extremely provocative & against the original spirit of analog pussy.

i am taking legal steps against jiga's use of the name "analog pussy" & against selling the recording which are my property.

at present i am using www.analog-pussy.org - as my platform for analog pussy.

amongst others jiga is publishing in different places - that she is the "official" analog pussy, as well as that her releases are the "official" ones, - implying as if i am the "fakes" analog pussy or something like that. - (including on the wikipedia page, - she is the one who is responsible of updating the addition of eva, which is far from being entirely clear or true, - as well as specifying - that analog pussy.com - is the "official " analog pussy site).

the whole resent actions of jiga, - claiming ownership of analog pussy, - the addition of eva to analog pussy, - the misuse & abuse of the name - etc. etc.- are all without my consent - and the whole thing is currently under a legal dispute.

my question to you is -how to reflect the whole development & issue on the wikipedia page?

jinno

You may wish to contact wikipedia. See here.--Epeefleche (talk) 04:04, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

I thought you might like to know that I've opened a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#User:Frgewhqwth and unsourced material—hate to poke my nose in, but I thought the situation merited it. —Ignatzmice<sup>talk</sup><sub>contribs</sub> 23:31, 13 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Just so you know, in reference to your question to Fregehqwth, I extended his block to editing his own talk page, after I saw that he was abusing that privilege. Nightscream (talk) 19:33, 14 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:15, 14 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The rollback happened because most of your edits were unnecessary. Replacing the picture of the dog with an infobox was unhelpful. For some odd reason you prefer the number "1" over the word "one", and likewise "6" over "six", where that is generally frowned upon for writing small numbers. Some of your edits were good (uncapitalizing the word "Owner", changing "enacting" to "enactment", etc.), but I thought it easier to blanket undo them and then fix them individually, which I hadn't finished. -Kai445 (talk) 02:58, 15 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

An infobox was added, which is perfectly appropriate. It was not used to replace any photo of a dog. Lower numbers such as 1 and 6 should be used if there are other numbers in the sentence that are double digit, etc. and expressed in numerals. Please do not blank/revert the edits again, with zero reason or mistaken assertions.--Epeefleche (talk) 03:01, 15 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Besides the fact that writing the numbers one through nine as words is taught in elementary school, it's also in the Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style, maybe you would care to read it. As for the infobox, it adds literally no value whatsoever to the article. You have filled out virtually none of the fields the infobox provides, it is basically a Disinfobox. -Kai445 (talk) 03:06, 15 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You've given no reasonable explanation for your mass reverts. As to numbers, as I said, comparable quantities should be all spelled out or all figures: we may write 5 cats and 32 dogs -- we do not write five cats and 32 dogs. Also, as to the infobox, your assertion that it replaced an image was incorrect. Finally, infoboxes are standard across the project. Here, we have the begininings of it being filled in, and others can add to it over time. There is zero wp-sanctioned reason to delete it.--Epeefleche (talk) 03:14, 15 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You had a vast majority of the edits, so I incorrectly assumed you were the one who changed the picture when adding the infobox. My apologies. Your additions to the infobox have improved it, and I find it less objectionable. In some time I will review the other edits individually since my last edit and revert them piecemeal if I find them objectionable instead of a blanket revert (your and other editors edits). My original rationale for the blanket revert is that the Pit bull article has become somewhat contentious for many users, and someone who just makes a hundred edits to it is usually an editor who isn't being productive. I had done a before/after (which, granted, encompassed some other user edits), and decided that it may not have been a net positive, and rolled back to the earlier revision. After that I started reviewing them to see which edits were positive and began to add them, but then went and did non-wiki things and left it for more cleanup later. Then you reverted me, and here we are. -Kai445 (talk) 03:33, 15 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Apology accepted on that misunderstanding. Also, before reverting -- feel free to communicate via talkpage. As with some of the points discussed above, I may have some feedback for you. As to your suggestions that number of contributions is a sign of whether one makes constructive edits -- I've made over 100,000, so I think I'm starting to get the hang of it.

As a general matter, though, I would suggest not reverting an editor based on an assumption that just because they have made few edits their edits will be poor, on a contentious article. One has to focus on the edits themselves, and read them, before reverting.--Epeefleche (talk) 03:39, 15 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

	The Teamwork Barnstar
	For your work on Boston Marathon bombings. Bearian (talk) 22:23, 16 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Here they are: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Chechen_people

Also note how you won't find Khattab there (he was an Arab of part Ciracassian descent). But that's eve besides the point. --94.246.154.130 (talk) 11:01, 20 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That is a cat. What you deleted without reason was a list. I restored it, as you have no reason to delete the list, but took out Khattab.--Epeefleche (talk) 11:06, 20 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Standard? Really? OK, I randomly checked Americans. No listing of "notable Americans". How about Russians, then? NO. But maybe at least Poles (I'm one)? NO, SO STOP LYING. --94.246.154.130 (talk) 11:12, 20 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Those are broken into subsets. See, for example, here. And List of Russian people. And List of Polish people. And, as you see, the lists exist despite the existence of cats.--Epeefleche (talk) 11:15, 20 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

And yet this is not List of Chechen people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Chechen_people --Niemti (talk) 11:26, 20 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think both of you need to be more civil to each other: WP:AGF. However, in this case 94 is correct.nYou, Epeefleche, need to click on the red link and start a new article List of Chechen people. Let me know if you need help in doing this. However, it is clear that you guys are edit warring. If you add in the material again to the main article I shall impose a 12 hour block.--File Éireann 11:45, 20 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Éireann, I think you are incorrect. Do you have any basis for saying that? Anything that you can point to? I've edited thousands of lists of people, both embedded within articles and as stand-alones. A list of people within an article, such as the one here, is perfectly appropriate and we have many, many of them. If it grows, it is appropriate for it to be stand-alone. Or, an editor could exercise editorial judgment and make it a stand-alone ab initio.

Of course, however -- that isn't the real issue. If you read the above, and what is linked to at the AN/I.--Epeefleche (talk) 11:51, 20 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You are right to be suspicious about the sockpuppetering. I have just imposed a block on 94's IP for 24 hours due to gross incivility. However, I feel I am now too involved to take any further blocking action and am considering what to do next. In regards to the other question, I shall look at this and get back to you shortly. Please call me Brendan.--File Éireann 12:08, 20 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Brendan -- thanks. As you look at the second issue, see this, and especially in the MOS section on embedded lists, under "Size": "Some information, such as "Notable people" ... may be formatted with a section lead and a descriptive, bulleted list". I would appreciate it if you would, under the circumstances, make the list viewable, as the blocked IP and his alter ego have hidden it from view.--Epeefleche (talk) 12:13, 20 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry no, I have raised the sock concern, I shall leave it to others to do the rest. In any case I think the article is better without the list--File Éireann 14:47, 20 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Although Niemti's behaviour was wrong, I still think he was right on the insertion of the list. I have looked at about 20 articles on people such as Equadorian, Sudanese, Afghan, Russians, none of them have a list of famous people in the main article. IMHO, 3RR applies here and I would ask you not to reverse this yourself today, but seek help elsewhere as I am not going to get sucked into this issue. Or even better, leave the article without the list as it is good to have consistency between articles.--File Éireann 12:28, 20 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I pointed you to the MOS for embedded lists of people. That shows the appropriateness of the embedded list of people within the article. Do you have anything other than your sampling of articles? Any guideline, MOS, or rule? Because I have seen many embedded lists of notable people. If they are this size, they are typically within the article. If they are longer, they are stand-alone. I've pointed you to MOS which make it clear ... beyond a doubt ... that it is perfectly appropriate to have an embedded list of people within an article. How do you square your comment with that? As I said, stand-alone lists are fine as well, and appropriate for longer lists, but you've pointed to nothing that indicates that somehow the MOS is incorrect.--Epeefleche (talk) 12:34, 20 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Please comment at::Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Niemti.--File Éireann 13:02, 20 April 2013 (UTC)14:53, 20 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Holy shit. Drmies (talk) 15:46, 26 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yup.--Epeefleche (talk) 18:39, 26 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You deleted the Making payment section from Etiquette in Japan as being tagged. The section is not tagged. I believe a cite can be found in Asian Business Customs & Manners. I will add a cite tomorrow, as my local library is closed and I am not about to break into a library just for a content dispute.--Auric talk 01:32, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The article was tagged in August 2010 as follows: "This article needs additional citations for verification." I'm happy for any formerly uncited material to be restored with an inline citation, per wp:v. Much of that article still suffers from a failure to meet wp:v, and in in its present form appears as OR ... and if only some of the material is OR, readers do not have refs to RSs to indicate which material is verifiable and which is not. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 01:36, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I interpreted your edit summary as saying that the section was tagged. I can add more cites for those sections not cited. I didn't do it earlier because I didn't want to cite the whole article to one or two sources only.--Auric talk 01:43, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No worries. Great -- I'll hold off editing the article as you do that. I think it is generally better to cite the article to one or two sources only, than to not cite parts of it at all. For some reason, our etiquette articles in general seem to especially attract OR, some of which seems quite dubious. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 01:46, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There is a proposal at Talk:List_of_gymnasts#Proposal_for_reorganisation which you are invited to consider and comment upon. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 07:33, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Could you opine on this matter? Regards — Robin (talk) 13:59, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I noticed you made this edit [80] citing the info was not in the references. If you look at the map at National Post [81] (the first ref) the three locations are clearly marked as is the shopping center. I don't think we are restricted to info in sources contained in paragraphs. BTW,I appreciate your level headed comments in the face of some really strange stuff on the talk page. Cheers Legacypac (talk) 04:15, 10 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. Thanks for the note. Reading the language below the map, even that one media report shows them having last been seen as far as five blocks away from each other, not one block. Take a look, and let me know your thoughts. And yes -- strange edits and comments have been known to appear on wp pages from time to time. Thanks.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:54, 10 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I figured out why the sources are saying both 1 block and 5 blocks based on the exact same data. Look closely at the linked map. It all depends on what that "fuzzy" distance of a block means. All 3 disappeared along Lorain from 105th Street to 110th Street. That looks like "5 blocks" on paper BUT in this area there is just 106th street going north between 105th and 110th on the North side (due to mall being there) and only Joan Ave which is an east-west (not north-south like the numbered streets) and meets very close to 110 & Lorain, on the south side. So if we are standing on Lorain at the mall we could logically conclude that from 105 to 110 is just one block, or maybe a touch more. Everyone would agree that generally one block is the distance between intersections. What do you think? Legacypac (talk) 06:40, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the thread you started at Conti's talk page, he has started a discussion on the article's talk page and graciously agreed to the content being restored pending a final outcome. I did the revert. --76.189.109.155 (talk) 15:37, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Could you come have a look at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Tommy Amaker/archive1.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:54, 25 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Epeefleche, noticed you deleted the long-standing Bill Callaway entry on the 'List of Landscape Architects', North America, 20th Cent. Just yesterday we cleaned up a page designed to be the landing-page for that link since it's been pointing for months or years to a different Callaway, a voice actor. Here's the updated entry for Callaway architect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_creation/William_B._Callaway,_FASLA ....are you an editor who can review it for approval? 1rheckmann (talk) 20:29, 1 June 2013 (UTC)1rheckmann[reply]

Hi. I performed minor cleanup on it for you, but will let another editor do the honors. Once created, feel free to add it to the list. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:39, 1 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It seems completely inappropriate to take an article that asserts its own significance or importance (albeit unsourced), remove all the material that does so, and then nominate the article for speedy A7 on grounds of not having any assertion of significance or importance. Especially when it was trivial to find a source for the information. Please look for sources instead of blanking content, especially when the content isn't at all controversial. Dricherby (talk) 08:12, 6 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If an article fails wp:v, the material can be challenged immediately. And removed immediately. Here, it was challenged 5 years ago. Ultimately removed; years after no action was taken to remediate the problem. That is completely appropriate. The wholly unsourced and challenged material could properly have been removed in 2008. Removing it at any time is appropriate. Its inclusion in the first place, and for over 5 years thereafter, is what is perhaps less than in the spirit of wp:v. Deleting an article thereafter is completely appropriate as well -- we don't retain articles on the basis of "at one time it had wholly unsourced information, which was challenged for five years, with nobody remedying the problem and providing sources of any sort, which has now been removed in accordance with wp:v". As to finding sources for such information, the burden is on the editor who wishes to restore it -- after it has been challenged for five years and removed -- rather than on the challenger or the remover (two separate editors, in this case. Per wp:burden.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:10, 6 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

And WP:PRESERVE says you should attempt to fix problems, rather than removing material that would be appropriate for inclusion in a "finished" article. A description of the genres of music covered by and artists signed by a record label certainly fits in that category. WP:BURDEN also says that you should try to provide a citation yourself if you think the material is verifiable: a statement of the form "Artist X is signed to record company Y" is almost certain to be verifiable unless it is untrue. Dricherby (talk) 19:50, 6 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It goes on to indicate in the next section when it might be appropriate to delete such material. We aren't a blog -- we don't, or should not, enter unsourced material violative of wp:v, let it sit for five years without providing any source whatsoever -- RS or otherwise -- during which a tag is on the article giving notice as to the problem, and then complain that some other editor -- other than the one who entered the unsourced information, and let it reside as such with the tag for five years -- should have the burden of sourcing the unsourced text. That would be fine for a blog. But is not in accord with wp:burden.

You should attribute any material challenged to a reliable, published source using an inline citation clearly supporting the material as presented in the article. Any material lacking a reliable source directly supporting it may be removed. Whether and how quickly this should happen depends on the material and the overall state of the article--here, the state of the article was poor, and it only happened after being tagged for five years. Editors were given ample time to provide references; after (as not required, but as a courtesy) a citation needed tag was added an interim step. If I think the material is verifiable, I try to provide an inline citation myself, but that is not a requirement to if I do not think so do the research incumbent on the person adding the information per wp:burden -- precisely the opposite. And, of course, on top of that our BLP policy applies to groups. The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and that burden is satisfied by providing a reliable source that directly supports the material.

Bottom line: It's not good practice to add uncited text. Especially where blp is an issue. And it is not good practice to -- once the text has been challenged, and tagged, for five years ... just let it languish as such. If you know the text to be true, it is good for you to find RS support for it. And if you wish the text to remain there for more than the five years that it resided there, completely uncited ... though challenged ... then it is good for you to provide inline RS support. But don't think that you can add uncited text, have it stay as such for five years with a tag pointing to the malady, and then foist the burden on another editor to do your work to look for and provide an RS inline source. That burden is on the shoulders of the editor who wishes to restore the text that violates wp:v and has been tagged as such for five years. Not the other way around.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:00, 6 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Please stop your disruptive editing. It took me less than half a minute in each case to find multiple reliable sources for the material you removed as unsourced. If you can't be bothered to search for citations, mark the text as unreferenced, and let others do the productive work. Thank you. Owen× ☎ 02:16, 8 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Owen -- you are complaining that information suggesting that a named person was the primary suspect in a crime, that lacked any refs whatsoever, in an article tagged since 2009 for lacking RS refs is not appropriate? Well, you are simply wrong. Productive work consists of both creating RS-supported text, and cleaning out non-supported text -- especially blatant BLP violations like that one, tagged for four years. Your comment is completely wrong-headed -- you know the article containing the text has been tagged for that deficiency since 2009, I presume (since the tag was already referred to twice ... not that that is a prerequisite-- and not in line with your obligations.--Epeefleche (talk) 02:20, 8 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The article Reichmuth & Co has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

None of the references have in depth coverage. There are many references on the web to this, but most are related to a single event. Maybe redirect to List of investors in Bernard L. Madoff Securities ?

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Stuartyeates (talk) 22:12, 22 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Nomination of Reichmuth & Co for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Reichmuth & Co is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Reichmuth & Co until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Stuartyeates (talk) 01:54, 24 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have been approached by User:WPia013 about why you keep removing text from the article Petty Joy. I have given answers as best I can, but they are very general. I know the editor has approached you, but the responses you are giving (being templated) are not helping. By all means use a template to warn someone about the edits they are doing, but when they approach you for clarification, that is exactly the time to stop using templates, especially the ones warning about blocks.

Please can you give a proper explanation to the editor that will help the article grow properly? Thank you. Stephen! <sup>Coming...</sup> 09:26, 24 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The explanation is the same as you have given generally and I have given repeatedly -- and I've given it yet again. Though, frankly, it is nothing beyond what we have said before, in truth. Links to wp:v, wp:burden, wp:OR, wp:BLP -- if read -- should explain what has otherwise been said repeatedly. The editor does not seem to understand or accept that he can re-add info to bios that has been challenged and is unreferenced if he supplies inline citations, but that wp is not for original research. I've tried saying it differently than you and I have said it before, but it is the same message, properly explained more than once in the past, now by multiple editors. The problem may not have been your explanation, nor mine. But we shall see. Finally, if you think the templates, or the policies then link to, do not as you put it "properly explain" that which they are meant to cover, I would urge you to consider improving them.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:02, 24 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have no problem with the templates as a general instruction/notification/warnings for editors. However, when I was trying to get to the bottom of what this editor was having a problem with, and following their correspondence with you, all I could see were templated responses with the occasional notes that boiled down to "read the templated responses". If there were actual more detailed/tailored replies, I'm afraid I missed them, in which case I apologise.

I have seen the response you have given today, and I appreciate you taking time to do so. Thanks! Stephen! <sup>Coming...</sup> 21:48, 24 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's been a bit of a circular discussion. I just keep on telling him what you already told him. And what I already told him. And he keeps on saying: 1) I know the subject of the article I am editing personally, and she told me this, so it is true; and 2) I want to include the info because I know it to be true even though it is not reported. I guess the COI of his relationship with the subject of the article is making it difficult to hear what you have said, and I have said, many times now. I think it was all covered in the links that are in the templates. He does not seem to want to embrace that information. I don't think it is that the information is less than clear, but as I said if you do it would help future recipients if it were to be made clearer ... if that is the case.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:54, 24 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Say, take a look at Case law. Two factors apply in Robbins. 1. The cases settled so no precedent decisions were issued by the court. 2. While the judges made certain decisions while the cases were active, they were not published as Case_citation#United_States. See also Non-publication of legal opinions in the United States and Law reports. No lawyer can stand up in court and say "in the case of Robbins v. Lower Merion School District....." The judge would not be happy. Thus these categorizations as "case law" are not appropriate. Thanks. – S. Rich (talk) 18:54, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi -- I was reacting to your edit summary, which suggested that unpublished opinions are not caselaw. They are -- unpublished opinions, especially in this day and age, are certainly subject to being read by counsel. And they can -- unless a court indicates that they should not be -- cited as precedent. But that would be a matter of a specific court rule, not the fact that a decision is unpublished. See, for example, this rule 32.1 for the federal rules of appellate procedure "A court may not prohibit or restrict the citation of federal judicial opinions, orders, judgments, or other written dispositions that have been: (i) designated as “unpublished,” “not for publication,” “non-precedential,” “not precedent,” or the like; and (ii) issued on or after January 1, 2007." As sometimes happens, the wikipedia articles you point to are somewhat less than accurate. If I have time and/or inclination, I'll fix those articles, but on this point the non-wikipedia ref that I point to suggests that whether or not the judge "would be happy", a federal court cannot prohibit or restrict the citation of its opinion, order, judgment, and other written dispositions -- and I might note that while there are clearly a number of such writings in this case, even a settlement is the subject of a judge's order accepting it (and not all settlements are accepted). Plus, we have judicial missives such as this 14-page one in this case. Best. --Epeefleche (talk) 19:08, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Not quite correct. The rule you quote says counsel can "cite" non-precedential material in briefs, but such citations have no binding effect on the court. They can be "cited" in briefs simply on a FYI or suggestive basis. In our Robbins article, if there are published (or non-published) "opinions, orders, judgments, or other written dispositions", then such stuff should be referenced in the article. (But a settlement by the parties is not a disposition by the court, so I doubt there will be such dispositions.) At that point we might be able to categorize the article with case law designations. We are not at that point. (The missive you supply is regarding a request for attorney fees. It is not a disposition of the case. And it does not transform Robbins into case law. ) – S. Rich (talk) 19:37, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Caselaw is "law established by judicial decision in cases." See Merriam-Webster.[82] Here, we have written judicial decisions in this case. That meets the definition. You argued that because they were not published, they were not caselaw. I see nothing to support that view. And have shown you how to clarify matters, with the advent of electronic research capability, a rule was passed that stated -- at the level above the federal court in question -- that a court may not prohibit or restrict the citation of federal judicial written dispositions that have not been published (or, as was not the case here, designated as “unpublished,” “not for publication,” “non-precedential,” “not precedent,” or the like). That solidifies the conclusion that it is law established by a judicial decision in a case. There is no requirement, as you suggest, that this case's judicial written dispositions, one of which I pointed you to, be in this article. Though you are free to add it/them. A court certainly approves every settlement in federal district court, by written judicial disposition ... the parties don't, and in fact are not free to, "settle" between themselves and then slink away, without court disposition. That's what leads to courts at times rejecting settlements. The Robbins caselaw consists of all the dispositions by the judge in the case -- if you obtain the court docket, no doubt you will find many. And, among other things, it serves as res judicata, collateral estoppel, and law of the case. And, of course, there is not even any indication (not that it would matter here) that the trial court sought to have the instant writings designated "not for publication", etc. And even in New York State courts, for example, such writings would be deemed entitled to

respectful consideration. Yellow Book of NY L.P. v. Dimilia, 188 Misc.2d 489, 729 N.Y.S.2d 286 (2001), and in Tennessee State courts such writing would be deemed persuasive authority unless designated “Not for Citation”.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:22, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting discussion. Thank you for engaging with me. Back to the topic, the footnotes in Yellow Book illustrate my point. There is a difference between a judge resolving a case or parts of a case with a decision and those resolutions/decisions becoming "case law". Footnote 1 recognizes that unpublished decisions are not given stare decisis effect, and distinguishes this fact from rules which say/said "do not cite such cases in briefs". Footnote 2 refers to "controlling legal authority". Statutes and published decisions from appellate courts are controlling legal authority. Non-dispositive, non-published decisions, etc. are not controlling outside the particular case. Approving settlements does not establish any law because settlements simply resolve disputes between the parties. Settlements are often done for reasons extraneous to the legal issues involved. Case law is law which attorneys can cite in their arguments to the court. No attorney would say "The case of XYZ, which was resolved by a settlement and not by a judicial decision, supports my argument that ...." If they did, the judge would frown and ask "Is this case you cite "on all fours?" – S. Rich (talk) 19:01, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

For your thoughtful comments. Edison (talk) 02:15, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I agree edit warring over the column setting of {{reflist}} would be incredibly stupid. But I do feel its better to set the width of the column rather than force columns, because people use different sized monitors. It looked bad in two columns on the monitor I was viewing it on. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:28, 3 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Nice to chat with you, as always. Good that we are in agreement that edit warring over formats -- where 2 are acceptable -- makes no sense. This is well developed in certain format areas, such as dates, as a general principle. As in dates, where there are two acceptable formats, the initially used one by the initial major contributor is deferred to as a general matter. As to ref columns, there is much written on this as well across the project. In short, on different screens with different settings, the approach you used may or may not look better. On my screen, it looks far worse (as one column), whereas the originally chosen format looks much better (as two columns). And as to why two columns are generally seen as superior for longer lists of refs (10 or more refs), it is the same as why the NYT uses columns -- it aids readability. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 17:33, 3 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Guess I'll defer. I didn't remember that we had gone into this a little bit back in March. I still think the screen resolution of the user's computer should determine how many columns there are, since sometimes two is best, but sometimes three, or even four, are more readible, but it's not a big issue. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:37, 3 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I don't recall if we discussed it, but in the past I've seen it discussed. The problem is that on some screens it may look better, but on others worse. At the project, had there been consensus that it was better, it would be a mandated format (and perhaps automated), but given that there is not a consensus it falls into the treatment that we have for MDY/DMY dates vs. numerical dates. Thanks for chatting, and for all your good work. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 18:19, 3 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Epeefleche, I'd like to restore my Sven Väth contribution - it's hardly "material challenged or likely to be challenged" as described in WP:BURDEN. I've never seen a citation in genre categories in infoboxes, and I'm sure I could find hundreds of similar uncited sentences across Wikipedia, take this from Aphex Twin "In 2001 Aphex Twin released Drukqs, a two-CD album that featured computer controlled piano songs influenced by Erik Satie and John Cage" and from The Blue Danube "The work commences with an extended introduction in the key of A major with shimmering (tremolo) violins and a horn spelling out the familiar waltz theme, answered by staccato wind chords, in a subdued mood". (Chorleypie (talk) 12:54, 9 September 2013 (UTC))[reply]

I've challenged it. I don't think there is reason to violate wp:v by having editors perform OR in this regard. OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not reason to do so, either. Feel free to restore it with a proper inline cite, however, per wp:BURDEN. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 18:19, 9 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The edit of mine which you undid at said article actually took quite a lot of time. OK, that isn't your problem, but, according to Tennis Project's article guidelines: "Scores should not be added to prose unless strictly necessary". In fact, I left a lot of scores in the Fed Cup section because that was too much for me to deal with in one go. Indeed that section needs a complete rewrite! As for the dates, why should an article on a Ukrainian-born Israeli use American-format dates? Since you disagree so strongly, I will re-introduce my edit (in which I made a number of MOS-improvements and sourced her birthplace properly) and change the dates back to MDY to suit you. Rather than just revert me, it would make more sense to further improve the article. Jared Preston (talk) 09:35, 13 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Well, let's take it one item at a time. At the top of the page. Why did you change the instruction as to what date format to use. And why did you change date formats within the article? And why -- if that change was not appropriate -- should you have spent time on it, and why should that keep an editor from undoing an ... if that was the case ... inappropriate change?--Epeefleche (talk) 04:01, 14 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Because of your active involvement in Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Juwan Howard/archive5, I thought you might be interested in commenting at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/2012–13 Michigan Wolverines men's basketball team/archive1.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:22, 15 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I noticed your reverts and messages on my talk page. My last two edits were not unsourced as I'd cited Wretch 32's official YouTube channel that also confirms the album title in the description. It may have appeared that I just reverted your edit; however I added reference before saving. I'm wary of your previous (and reasonable) revert but now you have no reason to because I'm following WP:VER. Please stop giving me warnings as I'm following conduct here. Regards, DJUnBalanced (talk) 21:17, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Edit: Oops. Thought you were criticising the text I added. Didn't realise I'd also unintentionally removed the BLP tag. My apologies.DJUnBalanced (talk) 21:20, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) Please click through to the indicated edit. It was unsourced; and an unsourced reversion of challenged material at that, without a source. Pls see wp:burden. Also, the last message related to the deletion of a still-applicable tag. I'm not sure why you deleted the tag, but unless/until the issue is resolved -- and it remains, even now, the tag should not be removed. I'm happy for it to be removed, and text to be added, with proper cites, however. Thanks.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:23, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wives Belmoktar should not have names for easier verifiability? (and a reference was dead.) João bonomo (talk) 17:43, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

We have multiple RSs indicating that he had four wives. Which is all that is reflected in the text. And is appropriate to reflect. There is no requirement that their names be reflected. And all the refs were active at one point -- the dead ref included.--Epeefleche (talk) 17:46, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank You. João bonomo (talk) 17:57, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

For keeping on on recent edits to Daniel Squadron. Thanks! :)--108.30.93.184 (talk) 07:26, 16 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@ Epeefleche Why did you revert my post on Laois Junior Hurling Championship ? ShamDela (talk) 09:32, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. Because you did not supply any references -- if you wish to restore it, please provide inline Reliable Source references, per wp:v. I'll leave a note on your talk page which may also help you.--Epeefleche (talk) 13:42, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Epeefleche -- Thanks for the cookies ... and helpful links. I'm a big fan of Wikipedia, but a bit timid at editing/creating pages, as I'm not yet sure I know all the required formatting and style conventions. I need to spend more time learning it.  :-) Thanks so much for all the work you (and other editors) do to keep pages current and informative.

Love your name, too. Our son took fencing lessons for a while ... and the two sons of a good friend are currently in the U.S. Top 20 in cadet and Y14 epee.

Almadenmike (talk) 18:09, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Sir Im the writer of kulna sawa biography and member of this band. Every information I write in this page I discover the next day that you are erasing it, would you please clarify, any positive contribution would be appreciated. Best regards Briantucker71 (talk) 06:32, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. I believe you are referring to uncited information, that is not cited to a "reliable source" (see wp:rs), but instead falls within wp:or. I will also leave word on your talk page. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 16:28, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Kulna Sawa again

Dear Epeefleche Im not familiar with wikipedia, the content of the page Kulna sawa is not complete I need your help to add the below data and revise it and cited, When talking about the history of this band Im one of the most reliable reference. Because Im writing the biography of this band and I can provide proofs for all listed information by photos and videos and sometimes by articles if available, I have all movies and documentaries ever produced about this band, and Im also member of this band, this page is talking about me, and Wikipedia is refusing my statement and the information Im telling about my self which are 100% true. And published before. I will list below the full text about Kulna sawa , please help me to cite and to submit this data so any one interested about our history can find in wikipedia what he is searching about. And also I have some materials, audio videos and picture to incorporate.

Here below the full text feel free to revise it because english is my third language. Best regards. Briantucker71 (talk) 20:28, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Several issues. Firstly, there's no need whatsoever to paste the article onto this talk page, much less twice. Secondly, the article cites no reliable sources - in fact, it cites no third-party sources whatsoever. What we're looking for are not photos or videos (unless they were published by, say, the BBC), but reliable third-party sources such as newspapers or music magazines. You certainly are not a reliable source by Wikipedia's standards; rather, you have a conflict of interest. Thirdly, what you added was unduly promotional. Huon (talk) 22:49, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for responding on my behalf, Huon.--Epeefleche (talk) 08:52, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This template might be handy: {{fact}}. --joseph <sup>msg</sup> 18:22, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The article Geoff Abrams has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

No Notable. Did not win any Jr Slam, never on the main tour (only tiny future tournaments), no davis cup, etc... Does not meet the extremely generous Tennis project guidelines for notability.

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:40, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I see you removed the prod, which is fine. In doing so you said Geoff Abrams held some sort of record. Some serving record? Some win streak record? I couldn't find it, nor is it in the article. Could you please source this "record", else I would have to put it up for deletion the standard way. Thanks. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:58, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. I wrote: "Notable per WP:NTENNIS number 6." WP:NTENNIS number 6 states: "Tennis figures are presumed to be notable if they ... Hold a tennis record recognized by the International Tennis Federation, ATP or WTA". I took that to mean won-loss record, but given your query recognize that it is ambigous. If that is not what is meant, I think he meets GNG in any event. See not only the refs in the wp article -- some of which are devoted to him -- but those found here and here. If he meets GNG, as I believe he does easily with multiple RS articles about him, then it doesn't matter if he meets the wp:tennisnotability standards. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 14:59, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

We'll see what others think. The costa mesa pilot does not meet meet GNG nor do LA Times articles talking about everyone at a futures tournament. Others may agree with you. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:25, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You don't seem to have read what I linked to carefully. There are multiple RS articles devoted to him -- not that that's needed, but it clearly satisfies wp:GNG. You may want to look at the RS coverage, GNG, and reconsider. This isn't even close.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:22, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Which is why when you nominated, the article for deletion, it was kept.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:46, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Nomination of Geoff Abrams for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Geoff Abrams is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Geoff Abrams until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:28, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Epeefleche, thanks for the copyedits on the prep sets for DYK that I put together; I'm still fairly new to building those, so if I screwed up anything else, just let me know. One question is the degree to which we promoters are allowed to make minor copyedits to the hooks, as you did; I don't want to exceed the scope of the reviewer, though I did sneak in a comma to one... any guidelines on that? And my "help" question is if you could kindly promote an article I nominated that has been passed, (I think nominated on Nov2 or 3) at T:TDYK, Beholder (horse). Been trying to get someone over there to give it the final nod and get it in the queue. Thanks Montanabw<sup>(talk)</sup> 03:41, 14 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that while in prep edits are fine, by all. Don't worry about that article -- someone will get to it. It just takes time. Feel free to ask someone else your original question as well. Best. --Epeefleche (talk) 03:44, 14 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I was asking on Beholder because I ran out of approved hooks that didn't have photo attached; wound up using one with a kind of poor photo to round out prep 2 set; I guess it's OK if not everyone gets their photo included...? Anyway, I know they should get to Beholder eventually, but she's been languishing for a bit because the reviewer wanted a second opinion because they were new to DYK reviews, which was legit, but slowed things down. LOL! Montanabw<sup>(talk)</sup> 04:36, 14 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the update; can you help me in editing my article? I thought it was par to the style needed...

Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Colombus1492 (talk • contribs) 22:58, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Sure. See MOS:YEAR (emphasis added) -- "A closing CE or AD year is normally written with two digits (1881–86) unless it is in a different century from that of the opening year, in which case the full closing year is given (1881–1986)."--Epeefleche (talk) 23:47, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

thank you :)

The DYK project (nominate) 16:02, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Nice work expanding this! Keep up the good work. Ruby 2010/2013 19:17, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The DYK project (nominate) 00:03, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the support that you have extended on the Template talk:Reflist#Basis 30em standard for multiple column discussion. I thought that it is almost obvious that one would like to split references into two columns (at least). But other than you, nobody else even acknowledged my findings or justified it. Criticism is always welcome but definitely it should be of substance rather than reflecting a sense of rigiditiy. I primarily edit Wikipedia when a gap becomes apparent to me. Since you are a senior editor, I would be glad if you guide me when the situation demands. Diptanshu<sup>Talk</sup> 06:35, 25 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The DYK project (nominate) 08:02, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

The DYK project (nominate) 08:02, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

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		Please accept this belated barnstar. Thanks for your tireless contributions to the DYK project and Wikipedia in general! -Zanhe (talk) 01:54, 2 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Caravaggio (restaurant) is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Caravaggio (restaurant) until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Philafrenzy (talk) 21:46, 11 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Epeefleche,

Sorry to bother you -- I undertand you are an expert on NPOV issues.

I was told (I think?) that I have been engaging in a slow edit war since Januay 29, 2014 with two other editors who have reverted material I added to an article. I believe the material I added is in accordance with Wikipedia principles and I do not understand why my edit is being reverted.

Can you offer any advice on the talk page in question. Thanks in advance, XOttawahitech (talk) 14:48, 23 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm really pissed off at you for moving the article about Canadian journalist and broadcaster Nathan Cohen. It was the first article about any Nathan Cohen, and now you moved it, retitled and caused redirects. I expect you will fix this. Also, you did not discuss this renaming with the main editors of the article before you moved it, as I certainly wasn't informed of it. For someone who is supposed to be a good Wikipedian, you violated several conventions with this move.--Abebenjoe (talk) 17:57, 2 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you believe, under WP rules, that an article that attracts 1/10th of the view traffic (the critic/journalist/broadcaster received 326 views the past 90 days, while the rower received 2,972 views in the same span) should have all viewers seeking "Nathan Cohen" directed to the critic's page?

Rather than to a dab page -- as, given the non-controversial nature of the change -- it was changed to.

Actually, given that the rower attracts 90% of the views, it appears that the rower is the "primary topic" for the name. So it even seems reasonable to consider going further, and changing the "primary topic" from the dab page to the rower page.

Although a name may refer to more than one person, it is sometimes the case -- as here -- that one of these topics is the primary topic. This is the topic to which the term should lead, serving as the title of (or a redirect to) the relevant article.

What in wp policy supports your view? It doesn't matter that his article was created first -- it attracts a smidgen of all readers seeking his name. --Epeefleche (talk) 19:42, 3 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

DavidLeib's edits are not legitimate. Please see Talk:Indiggo#Problems_with_sources. 63.247.160.139 (talk) 23:49, 3 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

(To clarify: I was trying to revert DavidLeib's edits, not yours.)63.247.160.139 (talk) 23:53, 3 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I am not taking a position either way on DavidLeib's edits. Your revert was primarily a revert of completely appropriate copyediting edits. If you wish to revert an edit that you believe was not appropriate, that is the only edit you should revert -- not the multiple additional subsequent edits, by other editors. --Epeefleche (talk) 23:56, 3 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Epeefleche. Please note that the link you added as a ref leads to a 404 notification. Secondly, the issue of Cammalleri's self-identification has already been discussed in depth on the corresponding talk page and assuming Jewish self-identification is inappropriate for a BLP. Naturally, I shouldn't need to point this out to you as it was your interpretation and addition to the content at the epicentre of the discussion in the first instance. Cheers! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:06, 9 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

PS If the fact of his being a Jewish hockey star is that important, surely there must be more sources available than a pay-for online like Haaretz? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:13, 9 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It's clearly an RS (a major newspaper since 1918; the countries oldest), devotes an entire article to the subject, and the article can be found here if the other url didn't work for you now. And -- though you don't know it, it is wholly irrelevant is a source is behind a pay-for-online format, as is the case for the New York Times and others. --Epeefleche (talk) 00:21, 9 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

What is relevant is whether he self-identifies. Does the article contain a statement from him that he identifies as being Jewish? Perhaps you could provide me with a cut-and-paste of that particular section of the article for verification. We are discussing a BLP.

If you wish to discuss it further, please resume the discussion on the relevant talk page. I have no interest in going head-to-head with you on the matter as if it were a personal issue for me. I simply thought I'd be courteous and elaborate on my rationale for the revert rather than leave a brief edit summary. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:50, 9 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Multiple issues here. First, the RS reports -- in an entire article devoted to the topic -- that he is now the all-time Jewish scorer. Second, it's clearly an RS -- despite you thinking it and The New York Times need to not have pay walls to be relied on. Third, you can see the article in the url I gave you. Your rationale simply does not hold water. Your additional rationale, that it is trivia, does not comport with the fact that a century-old RS devoted an entire article to it. We rely on the RS, not on any one editor. Third, he does of course self-identify, as the RS that only reflects those who self-identify (JSR) in fact lists him as such. Finally, Judaism is an ethnicity (and considered a nationality), as well as a religion, and we don't require self-identification (though we have it here) for ethnicities -- because he is Jewish by virtue of having been born Jewish and we are not ascribing religious beliefs (not that we require self-identification statements for the Pope and all sorts of other public figures anyway).--Epeefleche (talk) 01:13, 9 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

May I move this section to the talk page? Your previous insertion of content of a similar nature was rejected as inappropriate for a BLP on the talk page. I also find myself wondering where I alluded to 'trivia'? My concerns surround being cautious about BLPs. Perhaps you are referring to the reversion prior my own? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 02:20, 9 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Iryna Harpy: - a dead link is not reason to remove it, try the Wayback Machine for an archived link. Haaretz is, of course, a WP:RS as a major newspaper; if you disagree I suggest you use WP:RSN. GiantSnowman 12:52, 10 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@GiantSnowman: the link is not the actual issue here (that was merely an aside). The crux of the matter was expressed, "... the issue of Cammalleri's self-identification has already been discussed in depth on the corresponding talk page and assuming Jewish self-identification is inappropriate for a BLP." Have you actually looked at the relevant talk page in order to familiarise yourself with the issue in context? This is why I have asked Epeefleche for permission to move this discussion to the talk page where it belongs. As a second attempt WP:BRD (discussion having already taken place last year, and other editors deemed it as being unsuitable), an own page is an inappropriate venue as it is not a one-on-one consensus issue. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:04, 10 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Yes, we know that he self-identifies, because he is listed as such by the Jewish Sports Review. Not that we need it for ethnicity (and Judaism is also an ethnicity) -- any more than you need it to reflect someone "self-identifies" as Native American or African American.

Plus -- I agree with Giant that the actual issue here is the issue you yourself raised above. Which Giant addressed, and which I addressed. You questioned the use of Haaretz as a source (here, a source that devoted an entire article to the one sentence the article is used to support). You also questioned the use of a source that is behind a paywall. We've both addressed the point you raised - Haaretz is clearly an RS. And it is perfectly fine that it was in the first instance behind a paywall. Do you now agree on both points? And do you agree (recognizing that it was another editor editing with you in succession) that a statement that a century-old RS devotes an entire article to is not "trivia"?

Also, you started this discussion here. On my talk page. Yet, you are now objecting to the discussion being here. On my talk page. Saying it is "an inappropriate venue." Given that you yourself are the one that started the conversation here, I'm confused. I'm happy for it to run it's course here, the place you chose to start it.--Epeefleche (talk) 05:46, 14 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I agree that you're confused. Somehow you've managed to scramble all of the issues together in order to postulate that I am involved in perceiving the Haaretz reportage as trivia. Nor would I construe a courtesy note to be some form of 'throwing down the gauntlet' on your talk page. It is you who have persisted in locking it in here so as other editors working on the article at issue don't have the opportunity to engage with your arguments.

Considering that you've been actively editing for days without responding to my query about moving the discussion after involving another editor for an opinion out of context, and without engaging yourself after the opinion was given, I'd say that the statute of logical limitations has been exceeded in this venue.

As already proposed to you, you are welcome to begin the WP:BRD process on the article from scratch. I have no personal stake in the matter and was simply following the consensus reached last year (being that interviews with him demonstrated a self-identification which did not tally with Haaretz third party reportage). This time, however, I won't be duped into taking the civility bait and engage with you in any shape or form on your OWN talk. I'll see you on the Michael Cammalleri talk page. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:56, 15 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately there is nothing more we can do than revert, warn, and report to AIV. I'll monitor and block if appropriate. Regards, GiantSnowman 15:22, 9 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. As your on this page, might I trouble you to take a look at the discussion immediately preceding this one, and share your thoughts? Thanks.--Epeefleche (talk) 04:00, 10 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps you might care to answer my query before you start canvassing, Epeefleche. Thank you, in advance, for your courtesy. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:45, 10 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Iryna Harpy: - this is not WP:CANVASSing in the slightest. Neutrally asking for another's input is encouraged, if anything. GiantSnowman 12:53, 10 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@GiantSnowman: no, someone who obviously has a good, ongoing working relationship with the party asking for comment out of context does not fit the profile of a neutral party. Had you gone to the relevant article and talk page in order to check on the context and added your voice to the discussion, it would most certainly have been canvassing. I could call in on any number of my choice of neutral third parties to 'share their thoughts' and lobby on my behalf. Per canvassing guidelines, you would qualify as being neutral under these circumstances:

"On the user talk pages of concerned editors. Examples include:

• Editors who have made substantial edits to the topic or article
• Editors who have participated in previous discussions on the same topic (or closely related topics)
• Editors known for expertise in the field
• Editors who have asked to be kept informed"

Naturally, I am aware of the fact that you are aware of this. I'm sure you must be aware of the fact that this is uncomfortably close to overstepping the line between neutrality and canvassing. Thank you for your patience in hearing me out. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:31, 10 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No offence to Epeefleche but we don't have a "good, ongoing working relationship" - we get on, yes, as I do with most editors, but our interactions are minimal. GiantSnowman 12:54, 11 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@GiantSnowman: Cheers. Understood. In which case, of course you should not be precluded as a neutral party in situ. I would still ask that Epeefleche permit me to move the section on his talk page to the Michael Cammalleri talk page should he wish to continue in reopening the discussion using WP:BRD. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:04, 12 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the head's up on October 6 University (O6U). I've nominated it for deletion, as it doesn't have the copyvio that the previous versions had, but it still has a lack of overall notability. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 06:46, 15 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, it looks as if Tokyogirl79 has done seen to it 07:17, 15 March 2014 (UTC)Jimfbleak - talk to me?[reply]

As per WP:FOOTY we tend not use nationality in the lead if it is dual, or if he plays for a country outside his birth, it stops edit wars, as sometimes happens. You are correct that German-Iranian is well and accurately sourced, but it is not the norm. Thanks. Murry1975 (talk) 20:48, 15 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• It's the norm per WP:OPENPARA, which is what always governs (not sport-specific views which don't comply with the general consensus. It's also highly relevant -- the foundation for the next statements, of him playing for different national teams. It's also consistent with other sports. It is also backed by a very high level RS. And nationality is very important in sports, more than in many other bios, as it drives which national teams one can play for.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:52, 15 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

And 5 edits to add it have all failed. WP:3RR? You are well past that.

"nationality is very important in sports, more than in many other bios, as it drives which national teams one can play for"

And in a footballing sense, it can lead to what you have just done. Thats why it is guided the way it is. Dont re-insert you have well breached the edit warring limit, and only now after the breach do you discuss. I will raise it at footy to gain clarity, probably tomorrow evening. Murry1975 (talk) 22:06, 15 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A few points. First, project guidelines trump individual wikiproject editors' views where the two conflict. And our guideline on ledes in bios, WP:OPENPARA, states: "The opening paragraph should have: ... In most modern-day cases ... the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident..." (emphasis added). Second, reversion of vandalism don't count towards 3RR, and the deletions here of RS text and the RS, in contravention of the guideline, fail to follow Project guidelines (and, of course, there were different iterations in a number of those I was part of). Third, another editor inserted the text as well.

Fourth, your cohort deleted first without any reason. And then claiming that the fact that he was an Iranian citizen should remain, but deleting the fact that he was also a German citizen. Because, as he put it, to reflect that he is a German dual-citizen is "anti-Iranian." Whaaat? Fifth, it is not only called for by the guideline that it be included, it is especially relevant to athletes -- as you appear to agree. We don't delete especially important material, because your co-editor feels he wants to only reflect that the person is an Iranian citizen, while the RS says he is a dual citizen. If that's what you think is the goal of the Project, you're wrong. Finally -- footy obviously is the wrong place to gain clarity if anyone there thinks, as you and your co-hort seem to, that a sport-specific wikiproject can come up with a "don't reflect citizenship in the lede" rule that overrides a Project guideline -- as well as standard Project treatment of athletes in other sports. You need to go to the guideline and related Project pages to understand that guidelines control, if that is where your disconnect is.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:17, 15 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I've opened what I hope can be a centralized discussion at the guideline page, which I invite you to join. It is at Talk:Ashkan Dejagah#Deletions of citizenship from lede, contra our guideline.--Epeefleche (talk) 01:22, 16 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You seem to have an agenda with the Dejagah issue that you keep bringing up. His intro shouldn't have the negative aspects of his career, only the positives. Please refrain from enforcing your ideologies onto his encyclopedia page. Yes, the Iranian regime is corrupt and oppressive, we get it; it's been noted in the 'International career - Germany' section. Also, your writing seems off, with choppy sentences and some grammatical errors here & there. On another note, thanks for clarifying his international section, as well as adding other sections.--RidiQLus (talk) 18:35, 16 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Please see the centralized discussion at Talk:Ashkan Dejagah#Deletions of citizenship from lede, contra our guideline. The issue is adherence to wp:lede.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:12, 16 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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And why you are adding it to a bunch of pages? [83] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 08:22, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It is of undue weight in all these place. Yes it is fine at Balsam of Peru but not at every article that is tangentially related. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 08:50, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Some of the pages this is being added to are not related at all, e.g. denture-related stomatitis. Lesion (talk) 12:09, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'll expand there. It is in denture cement materials.--Epeefleche (talk) 13:27, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oh is it? Apologies then.

Further to James' point above, we have to ask ourselves how commonly this substance causes the condition compared to other causes.

Wrt the text being added to mouth ulcer [84], is it appropriate that an "allergy" section only mentions this substance, I am positive that there are more common things to be allergic to. From reading the text, it might be appropriate on general scoped pages such as cheilitis, stomatitis, as long as there are WP:MEDRS sources to support it, and as long as it is given due weight. Kind regards, Lesion (talk) 13:41, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It is in denture cement materials, eugenol used by dentists, some periodontal impression materials, and in the treatment of dry socket in dentistry, so you're correct that the denture stomatitis article is not the best place to address it. And certainly there is appropriate RS support. See, for example, here. It is one of the highest-reacted-to contact allergens; if there are other allergens, they should be added. I will look to see if it can be trimmed, but the issue is more along the lines perhaps of finding the other allergens if as you say there are in fact other allergens that the RSs report on that are also top-five allergens. Cheers.--Epeefleche (talk) 13:52, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

How is this relevant "Balsam of Peru is used in food and drink for flavoring, in perfumes and toiletries for fragrance" on this page? [85] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 13:49, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That was a good trim; thanks. I've honed it further.--Epeefleche (talk) 13:56, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Btw, good job on finding the chart source on that. I've made it a point to comment on the new AfD to reflect it, too. By the way, for what it's worth, I didn't supervote; it truly was simply a close close (ermm... close that was close :P), hinging on literally what you just added (due to GNG-only arguments basically cancelling each other out). Obviously you're free to think that I'm just some jerk that's hell-bent on destroying your article (again, to be honest, I couldn't care less), but please bear this in mind next time you run across someone else making a decision you don't agree with: maybe—just maybe—they're not actually expressing bias. :P Whatever; dunno why... just thought you should know. --slakr<sup>\ talk /</sup> 07:15, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your note. I left a note at the AfD that -- though I didn't stress this aspect of it -- goes against your express assumption, that "Leaving it open longer would appear to only result in more delete votes."

I had pointed out at delrev that: "As he knows from the edit history of the article, many of the RS refs and more fulsome treatments of the subject came mid-AfD, after most of the delete !votes, which would lead one to suspect (if crystal balling were to be acceptable) that an extension would lead to more keep !votes."

I think the many refs added since the article has been re-opened following delrev -- not limited to the charting ref -- support a GNG conclusion (and of course the charting one does as well). Had the AfD simply been extended -- which is low-hanging fruit -- we could have gotten there without the delrev process. Especially where it is a close call, as you indicate this was, I would urge you to consider in similar circumstances letting more time pass so more refs can be found and more editors can opine and a clearer consensus can be gauged.

Another point -- you, both above and at the AfD, refer in effect to the GNG discussions being equal, or "cancelling each other out" -- in that case, it is a "no consensus" close that is called for. If you still think otherwise, I would suggest we discuss this with a long-time AfD sysop such as user:DGG (I have never discussed it with him to my knowledge, but know he has been around long enough to have the view I have based on my years of observation). You seem to think that if it is a "no consensus" on GNG, rather than close it as "no consensus" you should delete it because it doesn't pass wp:BAND -- that's just wrong, and I would be disturbed if you continue to close AfDs under that misapprehension.

I still feel that if you don't simply weigh (not just number, of course) the proper !votes at an AfD and close accordingly, but instead close in accord with your personal feeling as you did, that's a supervote. If, as I agree, the !vote was a stand-off draw on GNG, then it should be a "no consensus" close.

Also, it's not "my article". I barely ever touched it, until the AfD.

Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:29, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

articles on popular music performers are not within my area of competence, but there are some general issue involved. ( I am not sure I will comment at the AfD, but if it goest to DelRev again I certainly will).

(1) Speaking generally,when there are several possibly conflicting guidelines, as is clearly the state here, it is a matter of judgment which one to use, and the people at the AfD must choose what they wish to emphasize. When they are divided, it's up to the judgment of the closing admin, but the closer must still base it on the arguments presented, not their own personal view. To a considerable extent, in practice both those commenting at the AfD and certainly the closing admin decide on the basis of a holistic evaluation of whether the article should be in WP. (At the very least, they certain judge in this manner when deciding what AfDs to participate in, which is often the deciding factor) That's the basic idea of IAR: we follow the rules when we think they will help, and only then

(2) In most cases there is no general rule about the relation of special and general notability factors. There are a few well-understood exceptions: WP:PROF is explicitly an alternative to the GNG, not a supplement. Some aspects of notability for athletes are also an alternative, such as being in the Olympics. (My own personal view is that the special notability factors when they exist should be the only rules use, and the GNG is only for exceptional cases either where no rule applies, or when the argument is despite not being notable by the qualities of the subject it is notable because of publicity. This is definitely not the consensus position, but I will continue to argue it ought to be, both so we can spend less time quibbling over the details of sourcing, and also so we can avoid systematic bias.

(2a) I am not willing to say whether there is consensus that if a recording charts, it is notable enough for an article on the performer or the recording regardless of all other factors. That's a decision for those more knowledgable and more interested. Personally, I regard such a view as a great anomaly, leading to extravagant overcoverage of popular music, but my personal view has no bearing here, and I do not try to intrude it into specific decisions. My approach to WP is to let people interested in a subject decide what they want to do unless there is some reason otherwise.

(3)Lack of notability is not the only reason to delete the articles. For example, consensus that there is no way an article can meet BLP is a thoroughly accepted reason. It is also true that we can decide that there is consensus not to have separate articles at the present state of some topic, even if they would meet notability,

(4) The consistent practice here is that no consensus means the prior decision stands. At AfD we are dealing with whether we should delete an existing article. If there is no consensus to delete, we do not delete. This does not apply to individual arguments, If there is no consensus that something is passes a guideline, then there is simply no agreement to that, and it does not affect directly the ultimate decision on whether to keep or delete. What it generally does do is lower the value of that particular factor in deciding whether or not there is consensus to delete the article. We speak of an article "passing" AfD, , but what that means is that it passes if there is no consensus to remove it. Nobody needs permission on consensus to make an article on anything--where consensus is needed, is to remove it. Some other WP processes work otherwise--for example, as I understand it, unless there is consensus an image meets the NFCC, it is not usable.

(5) A closer may not close on the basis of his own feelings unless they are in consensus with the informed position of the interested community. (But a failure to do so does not constitute bias, just a incorrect understand of their role. It is of course permissible & in my open admirable to close against one's own feeling if it's clear the consensus is to that effect--this is often the best approach to a really divisive question. The only proper course a prospective closer can take if they think the consensus is wrong is to argue against it, either in the AfD or in deletion review. When two principles conflict, the community decides which one to use, not the closer. Admins have no power to decide anything at all except with the explicit or implied consensus of the community. All we have power to do is to decide what the community wants. DGG ( talk ) 05:21, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

DJ Jurgen was credited as an artist in the Alice DeeJay song Better Off Alone, on which he was credited as "DJ Jurgen Presents Alice Deejay". When I have time, I will expand the article myself.--Launchballer 08:20, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. I don't understand that explanation as being sufficient to confer notability (in wp terms) on the subject.--Epeefleche (talk) 08:28, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

He meets WP:MUSICBIO#C2.--Launchballer 08:31, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The song and the band are both certainly notable (and if he is not notable, a redirect to the band would be in order). But up above you indicated that the song is the band's song. If so, it is the band that would meet the criteria under wp:BAND, not the artist. --Epeefleche (talk) 08:36, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Not according to how it was credited. If you remain dissatisfied, send it to AfD.--Launchballer 08:40, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm confused, as much as anything. The official chart you pointed me to credits the charting to the band -- see here. It's a bit murky to me.Epeefleche (talk) 08:43, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That wasn't the chart I pointed you to. The chart I pointed you to, i.e. the one on the article, specifically attributes DJ Jurgen to that one song, while the others are just Alice DeeJay.--Launchballer 10:06, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry -- I meant chart url. And you wrote above, that he "was credited as an artist in the Alice DeeJay song." So, if its the band song, and the chart url credits the charting (at least in one of its charts), to the band, that's what leaves me confused.--Epeefleche (talk) 16:55, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

To clarify, both the artist and the band are credited.--Launchballer 16:57, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. I don't know if you've seen Nate Bloom's syndicated column from June 2010, in which he says the Jewish Journal piece was mistaken in identifying Spector as Jewish, which apparently they did "based simply on the fact that Jonathan's paternal grandfather, Art Spector, an original member of the Boston Celtics basketball team, was identified as Jewish in some sources". The column claims that Spector's other grandparents were not Jewish, even if Art Spector might have been, and Spector himself certainly attended a Catholic high school. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 17:53, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No -- had not seen that. Many thanks. I will check the JSR when it next comes out, as they speak to the players themselves or their representatives. But in the meantime, feel free to revise accordingly. (By the way -- Jews not infrequently attend Christian schools; that in itself would not be dispositive; also, to complicated matters, for purposes of the World Baseball Classic and of Israeli citizenship, one grandparent is sufficient). Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 17:59, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

hiya, is imbd http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3337437/ a verified location for a birthday? If new people are going to return to the in out content fights as previous, would it be possible to ask if the article can be kept with locking or editor restrictions? Mosfetfaser (talk) 19:18, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I would have to check. But we certainly do have RSs that indicate, for example, how old they were during the first Eurovision contest. Yes, if the article attracts IP and new editor disruption, that can be addressed with protection. And/or the banning of the editor -- this brand new editor certainly looks like a sock of an editor already involved in the general AfD discussions.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:25, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Nice, that would be a good idea if a repeat happens. I see CW has taken down the birthday as "unreliable" so if you could find a permitted verification at minimum for their age it would be an improvement, thanks to you Mosfetfaser (talk) 19:29, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

[Note by Epeefleche -- preceding the below was the following:

== Question ==

Hi -- I saw that you were one of the delete !voters on a soccer player, for failing among other things to have played in an appropriate professional league. I was looking at an article on him here, and it appears that he now at least has done so (e.g., the Israeli Premier League, which is on this list). But before I start the article, I thought I would check with you to see if you agree. Tx.--Epeefleche (talk) 06:41, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Epeefleche (talk) 20:52, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, playing a match in the Israeli Premier League would be enough to satisfy WP:NFOOTBALL and meet minimum notability requirements. GiantSnowman 12:00, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Tx.--Epeefleche (talk) 15:36, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Unless I'm missing something (correct me if I am), he still doesn't meet WP:NFOOTY. A quick look at the Chicago Fire roster shows that he did not end up signing for the club following his trial, and none of the leagues he played in previously are confirmed to be fully pro. As for the timing, the userfication of the page did prompt me to remove the backlinks. I maintain a record of football related article deleted by AfD. Cheers. Sir Sputnik (talk) 15:56, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

See the comment by Giant Snowman, directly above. Which replied to my query to him here.--Epeefleche (talk) 16:08, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The only issue is that Nate Weiss has not actually played in the Israeli Premier League, as far as I can tell. GiantSnowman 19:14, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The article that I had flagged for you indicates that "Weiss has since played for ... Hapoel Beersheba (Israel)..." Hapoel Beersheba is in the Israeli Premier League. Am I missing something?--Epeefleche (talk) 19:30, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Is it a RS? Probably not. He's not listed at Soccerway which is perhaps the most comprehensive database around at the moment and which includes all Israeli Premier League players. He's not even listed in any of their historical squads. GiantSnowman 19:35, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As to whether it is an RS ... I hadn't thought by your reaction that it was questionable. But, it is a 76-page magazine, published four times a year, it has been publishing for 40 years, and its editorial staff includes five writers, and it is carried by 169 libraries.[86] And its president/publisher (Lynn Berling-Manuel) is quoted on the blurb to The Parent's Complete Guide to Soccer, published by Lyons Press, as to her opinion of the book, and has a solid background in media and soccer. And its owner, Soccer America Communications, also puts out these 76-page guidebooks, and its domain gets close to 5,000 hits a day. Seems like an RS.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:05, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

So it might be a RS - but that doesn't mean it's correct. When I first responded I didn't check the intricacies of the source, I didn't know you would base your assumption that he has played on it. We often see article that say a player "has played for Club X" when what they really means was that a player "was contracted to Club X." That's likely the case here. Sites like this don't give him any games in Israel. GiantSnowman 20:19, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I understand that RSs can make mistakes -- The New York Times issues mea culpas daily. But this appears to be a 40-year established site, with a publisher who serves on the board of directors of the National Soccer Hall of Fame and the National Soccer Coaches Association of America. The site you showed me doesn't seem to compare. Between the two, this one seems far higher level. The article is also unequivocal in saying he "played" for the team. What do we do when two refs -- one more clearly an RS -- disagree on a fact? We assume the 40-year-old RS is wrong? That doesn't seem right; I think we assume the higher-level RS is correct, and act accordingly (although if your Hebrew is good enough, you may find something in the Hebrew Israeli papes). Don't you agree? Otherwise, we're going to start deleting lots of text across the project because lower-level refs fail to mention something that higher-level refs do mention.Epeefleche (talk) 20:29, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

So you're admitting sources like NYT can make mistakes (and do, frequently) but this website can't? That simply doesn't add up I'm afraid - and neither does that fact that no other source mentions him playing an actual game for them. Please trust in my 8+ years editing soccer articles here; when sources say "played for" they often mean "contracted to" and not "played a competitive match for." Also alas, my Hebrew is non-existent, though Google Translate leads me to believe that "כדורגל נייט וייס" should bring up Hebrew-language sources about this player - which indeed it does. This confirms him going on trial with the club (though not actually signing); and that's pretty much all I can find. Surely a player, especially a foreign one, playing in the country's top division would get more than that? GiantSnowman 20:44, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No -- I'm asserting that all sources, both RSs such as the NYT and lesser sources such as footballdatabase.eu and all in between, make errors from time to time. Each of them. The higher the level the source, the less we would think the likelihood of the mistake -- indeed, that's the notion behind splitting the universe into RSs and non-RSs. Just because the 40-year publication here has a publisher who has an editorial staff and she is personally on the board of directors of the National Soccer Hall of Fame does not make her and it infallible ... but it makes them less likely to make mistakes than their counterparts who have lesser qualifications.

I'm not an expert as you are in soccer articles. Query -- in major league baseball (an area I know better) we have mlb.com, which is the official site for wp purposes (the highest-level RS in the area), and what that site says is what we follow in the event of a difference. Do you have the equivalent for the league here? And can we check that?

Interesting and excellent find by you on him, by his name in Hebrew. That article is exactly as you say. It seems there is more than one such article, by different papers, devoted to him. Here is a better search of his name. Might those articles devoted to him in Hebrew (and others, if they exist) bear on GNG?--Epeefleche (talk) 21:04, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There is no one site for football - though like I said Soccerway is perhaps the best out there (although, again, also open to errors and omissions, which they normally correct whenever you tell them) and we also have a directory (incomplete, unfortunately) of links at WP:WPFLINKS. No entry for Israel unfortunately. The Hebrew-language coverage (and also English-language for that matter) of Weiss seems to be WP:ROUTINE i.e. regular sports journalism, which wouldn't really pass muster for GNG. It's rather limited in its scope. GiantSnowman 21:13, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I'm inclined to not create the article at the moment, under the circumstances. I tend to think that where we have two RSs, and one is more clearly (IMHO) a high-level RS, we should tend to go with that one for a decision (or reflect both if it is a text issue). But this is murky, given what you've turned up, so I'm thinking it best to let it sit for the moment. But I thank you for your info on soccer (they really need an official site, as some other sports/leagues do), and hope you've enjoyed reading about Soccer America and Lynn Berling-Manuel. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:20, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The sport is too big to have one 'official' site for all needs. We have FIFA.com (the governing body) but they make plenty of mistakes. I'd suggest you expand the article in your sandbox for GNG purposes with all sources you can find; if you want you might want to ask at WT:FOOTY to see if anyone else can find a source either way. GiantSnowman 21:23, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Right ... as to sports, I was thinking per league (as the MBL, NBA, Euroleague, NHL, etc. have official sites). As to the article, I'll give it a think, but with your view on GNG its priority drops. Though I imagine the Soccer America article is substantial, and an RS, and not just a passing mention "he performed this way in this game" but rather what we look for in GNG. Maybe before I turn to it he will do us all a favor and play in an appropriate league.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:29, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oh if you wanted an official league website for the Israeli Premier League then they have one - most major leagues do - and luckily it's in English. He is not mentioned on the Hapoel Beer Sheva page for the 2009–10 season, or the 2010–11 season, or the 2011–12 season. I think that covers before before, during , and after his spell with the club. Given the fact that he doesn't feature on their roster at all, and given the Hebrew-language source saying he was on trial, are we sure he even signed a contract with them? GiantSnowman 21:35, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In fact, he doesn't appear on that website at all. GiantSnowman 21:38, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Well, if that's the case, and if you handle it the same in soccer as we do in baseball (mlb.com trumps other RSs), then we have a dispositive answer. Many thanks for your time, GS.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:41, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I'd say the official website of the league he supposedly played in is the best here. No worries - any time. GiantSnowman 21:53, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Epeefleche. Regarding this: If you see a comment of mine such as the one at Talk:Chessie (band), even if it's very old, I'd be happier if you came by my talk page to ask me about it rather than putting a deletion tag on such an article. Thanks, Paul Erik <sup>(talk)(contribs)</sup> 23:41, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. Congrats on your five-year anniversary of working on it!--Epeefleche (talk) 23:46, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Paul Erik <sup>(talk)(contribs)</sup> 23:51, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent work by you on the article. Typical of you. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 23:52, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Epeefleche, and thanks for patrolling new pages! I am just letting you know that I declined the speedy deletion of Fawad Khan (actor), a page you tagged for speedy deletion, because of the following concern: My feeling is that the article and reference constitute a claim of significance enough to escape A7. You may wish to review the Criteria for Speedy Deletion before tagging further pages. Thank you. Olaf Davis (talk) 00:24, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting -- even though the claim is not that he has done anything of importance? But that he is expected to? In a film that hasn't come out? Note, though a different test, how this one looks only at what has in fact been done -- WP:NACTOR (and even that requires multiple films).--Epeefleche (talk) 00:35, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there. I see you've added Zachary Wohlman back to the Northridge, Reseda and Woodland Hills articles. I also went looking for a source, and found the same one you listed. For obvious reasons, WP:USCITIES suggests adding notable individuals "that were born, or lived for a significant amount of time, in the city". The source you cited doesn't state that though. Thanks. Magnolia677 (talk) 18:32, 31 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

First -- for obvious reasons, as you put it, we can assume that a ref reports a person lived in a locale if they lived there a significant enough time for it to be significant to report. Such is the case here.

Second -- living in the location a few years suffices for notable persons lists. The criteria are: a) they are notable; b) RSs report that they lived there. We don't create further criteria (and what would they be anyway? One year? Three years? Five years? As many years as editor X thinks is a good number? We have no such criteria at wp, because there are none). For that matter, even just being born in a location suffices -- even if the person moves away the next day.

Third --WP:USCITIES is not a guideline. And it is not even part of WP:MOS.

Fourth -- WP:LISTPEOPLE is the closest guideline. It states: "A person may be included in a list of people if all the following requirements are met: ... The person meets the Wikipedia notability requirement. ... The person's membership in the list's group is established by reliable sources." Such is the case here. There's no reason that a person would be notable enough to be included in a stand-alone list, but not notable enough for an embedded list of precisely the same people. Especially given that when embedded lists get long enough, they become stand-alone lists. The guideline for embedded lists is logically the same as the guideline WP:LISTPEOPLE, on content selection matters. There is no difference in the criteria between the embedded list for Woodland Hills and the article list for Los Angeles -- it is just that when a list becomes long enough, it is spun out.

Fifth -- I see no guideline indicating that an entry in an article list, which is appropriate for an article list, must be deleted from an embedded list.

Sixth -- even the non-guideline, non-MOS, style advice that you refer to only points to what one should make sure one takes care to include (it is not by its terms exhaustive), not to what one must delete. Thanks.Epeefleche (talk) 19:17, 31 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

WP:LISTPEOPLE is a section in the guideline Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Stand-alone lists. The three articles you added this person to are not stand-alone lists; the "notable people" sections of city articles are not stand-alone lists. Magnolia677 (talk) 19:43, 31 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Please do not undo the improvements to the page Ya Tabtab...Wa Dallaa. The source for track listing and personnel was adapted from the album's liner notes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ahmedfarhat (talk • contribs) 03:28, 1 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Please feel free to add material in accord with wp:v. Per WP:BURDEN, please attribute all quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged to a reliable, published source using an inline citation. Cite the source clearly and precisely (specifying page, section, or such divisions as may be appropriate). The citation must clearly support the material as presented in the article. See Citing sources for details of how to do this.--Epeefleche (talk) 03:35, 1 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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Dear Epeefleche, please take your content disputes concerning the BLP of Cammalleri to Talk:Michael Cammalleri and not cluttering my talk page, as we have no extra-content issues to discuss. I'm done with your rants and conspiracy theories.--Львівське (говорити) 06:30, 1 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I've discussed in that talk page discussion why it is appropriate for your talk page, as it relates to your pattern of editing, and follows a similar complaint made with regard to your editing; both, of course, follow your being sanctioned for similar reasons, all on related articles, as is being discussed at your ongoing AE. I've no idea what your reference to a conspiracy theory is meant to refer to.--Epeefleche (talk) 06:36, 1 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The imaginary 'pattern' you've concocted. That's the reference. --Львівське (говорити) 06:40, 1 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The pattern is demonstrated in your ongoing AE here with regard to your sanction. The sanction language itself referred to your pattern in regard to editing these articles, as part of the explanation for the sanction on you was that:

"The fact that you are now edit-warring over your apparent belief that being Jewish & Ukrainian is not possible is pointy, incorrect, and contrary to the core policies of this site (source based, neutral point of view edits). You should be in no doubt User:Lvivske that further behaviour like this will be prevented by block if necessary."

But I don't see any reference by me to a conspiracy.--Epeefleche (talk) 06:46, 1 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That's not language from a sanction, that's pulled from elsewhere. The statement itself was completely fabricated by the user you quoted, so using random false statements as 'evidence' of a 'pattern' seems to be connecting dots that don't exist. As I've suggested, it's quite the story you've cooked up. --Львівське (говорити) 06:52, 1 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That is the precise language from the note "Block and Final Warning" left for you by sysop Cailil, in the block that precede the sanction you are appealing at AE by 28 days. Why are you charging sysop Cailil with "fabricating" what he writes in that statement. Why are you charging him with making "false statements?". And read the entire note -- it further details your pattern I'm pointing to. And the discussion at imposition of your sanction points as well to you tag-teaming on Ukrainian related articles. I'm not making up anything -- I'm pointing to what is detailed in that note and in your current AE.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:10, 1 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Would you mind if this were merged instead of being deleted? Bearian (talk) 16:53, 1 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I would mind a merge of the current material, because it is the material that has a problem leading to the speedy suggestion, but I would not mind a redirect, nor would I mind the creation of any appropriate material at the target that is not speediable material. Hope that helps.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:22, 1 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Epeefleche, I am new to editing Wikipedia; is my cite fixed on SSWSC? I didn't see that info was removed as per your message, so I just added a cite. Thank you for your help. Sswsc (talk) 23:38, 1 April 2014 (UTC) SSWSC[reply]

Welcome. I would suggest a reference for each sentence you add. Also, I would suggest you change your name, as it is close to the name of an article you edit, and that you become familiar with wp:COI. Best of luck, and welcome again.--Epeefleche (talk) 05:16, 2 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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Dear Epeefleche,

Why did you undo all of my work of hours? Indiggo's wikipedia has to be neutral and fair to their accomplishments. All my sources were relevant and from reputable sites. What you are trying to do is diminish and minimize their work. Please, revert my changes.

Thank you, Dany4444 (talk) 20:42, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You are a single-purpose editor, who upon being created immediately started editing -- in similar fashion -- an article at AfD where there has been edit warring in the past, and ducking sock behavior. You can't add uncited material, as you did. You can't add material using wikis as a source, which you did. You can't add other non-RSs, as you did. You can't add material that is not supported by RSs, which you did. I already left you information on your talkpage as to your errors and how to edit correctly. Also -- have you ever edited before, under a different name or IP address?Epeefleche (talk) 20:45, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your suggestions. I will delete all the wiki references. Thank you for pointing that out. I edited trying to give a most accurate image of the Indiggo duo.

Many thanks. Dany4444 (talk) 21:45, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Have you ever edited Wikipedia before, under a different name or IP address? --Epeefleche (talk) 21:47, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No, I have never edited Wikipedia before. I am trying to do constructive editing, verified, and with significant and just facts. There were many errors. I'm just trying to help and present a neautral point of view that highlights the American facts.

I started editing because I was surprised by the differences from wikipedia and other sources.

Many thanks. Dany4444 (talk) 22:09, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]