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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 09:52, 4 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

User Bodia1406 removed "fascist" from this part of text: "Bandera's expectation that the Nazi regime would post factum recognize an independent fascist Ukraine as an Axis ally proved to be wrong"[1] Is that correct? I would say no, reading Rudling and Katchanovski. What do you think? Mhorg (talk) 20:37, 9 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Mhorg - User Bodia1406 doesn’t meet extended confirmed restriction, they should not be editing this particular topic area since Bandera was involved in the Holocaust in Poland. - GizzyCatBella🍁 00:39, 10 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Change "On June 23, 1941, one day prior to German attack on the Soviet Union," to "On June 23, 1941, one day after the German attack on the Soviet Union,". The attack began on June 22, 1941. 76.174.18.68 (talk) 20:38, 21 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Done—thanks for pointing out the error. –Ploni (talk) 20:52, 21 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In the first paragraph, it should be "a Ukrainian", not "an". Xvorkop (talk) 21:44, 21 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Stepan Bandera, from what is said in English Wikipedia, is a murderer, however whilst studying the history of Ukraine it is quite clear that the person was obviously against other countries taking control of Ukraine. He was a national leader, but never the murderer, and, what is more, never a Nazi. Please check your information and make sure to use official sources like Ukrainian history books, and not some Russian propaganda websites. Tortilla777 (talk) 17:15, 22 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This looks more like a comment not an edit request. - GizzyCatBella🍁 17:19, 22 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:19, 22 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think there was consensus for that. He had a career that spanned decades and his on/off collaboration with Nazi Germany lasted for a fraction of that time. It's important enough to be noted in the lede but not in the first sentence, doing so would be undo emphasis. This was a good version: [2].Faustian (talk) 05:56, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Also, the first sentence should also mention that his organization fought against the Soviets and to a lesser extent the Nazis. Its anti-Soviet struggle lasted for years and is no less important than the massacre of Poles or Nazi collaboration.Faustian (talk) 06:14, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Faustian Please do not destroy the work of numerous editors with your mass revert. It took a lot of labour and talks to get to this version. You also removed a lot of information with your revert. Discuss first and go slow. - GizzyCatBella🍁 09:25, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with GizzyCatBella, maybe it's better to make some small changes. The article was quite stable as it was. Mhorg (talk) 09:38, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Faustian do you want to alter this line first? -->

..organization responsible for massacres and ethnic cleansing, also implicated in collaboration with Nazi Germany.

How do you want it sound? (please pay attention to the sources next to it) - GizzyCatBella🍁 19:09, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry about that. I simply think that it is undue to mention his period of Nazi collaboration in the very first sentence, when that is a small portion of his career and not something he was even consistent with doing. Nor is it the reason why he is famous or celebrated. I don't think the article on Churchill has "ally of Stalin" in the first sentence. I hadn't realized the extent of the changes but the version I reverted back to had also been stable. The first sentence should indicate aspects of his biography that are long-lasting and consistent - he spent his life struggling for national liberation against non-Ukrainian governments, but was also a far right authoritarian who engaged in terrorism and whose organization killed large numbers of Poles and Jews in the course of this struggle. As it is, he is presented as a sort of Quisling and that would simply not be accurate, based on his biography. Faustian (talk) 02:36, 27 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have requested that this page be reverted to February 25 2022 and locked for further edits due to an edit war in the wake of the 2022 invasion of Ukraine.

Plenty of the edits made since then are likely valid, but it's pretty clear that some passions are mixing and causing problems on the page. Problems include, but are not limited to, poor sources, major grammatical errors, abuse of reverts, and unnecessary topics and subjects in the opening paragraphs.

Please refrain from passion editing. This is a wikipedia page, not your personal Tumblr.

Charlesblack (talk) 15:36, 27 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Have you ever read Nuremberg Court document 014-USSR? There is very clearly say that he is not nazi, maybe you nazi who write this? Ярослав Карасевич (talk) 07:22, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In principle, what you have written above is sufficient for a block of an indefinite duration. If you ever accuse again anyone here in being nazi, the block will be imposed. Ymblanter (talk) 07:36, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Stepan Bandera is not a Nazi collaborator!!!!!!! Pomidor Dubil (talk) 19:25, 11 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Stepan Bandera is not a Nazi collaborator!!!!! Pomidor Dubil (talk) 19:26, 11 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: This looks to be well sourced. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:39, 11 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Re this edit by Ymblanter, apologies if I'm missing something but I don't see the the three changes I made there discussed on this talk page. The three changes I made, all reverted, are as follows:

1. removal of a blanket statement ("Bandera was an antisemite and Nazi collaborator.") from the start of the section, the second part of which was only recently added and therefore cannot be said to have consensus. The "collaborator" simply comment is out of place in this section as we have a whole section dealing with this in a nuanced and accurate way, as well as a careful mention in the lead which I believe does have consensus. The sentence cites an intro to an academic newsletter, which is a poor link for a contentious generalisation. If we have strong academic sources saying "Bandera was an antisemite" or "Bandera was antisemitic" we could use that instead. Having started to look, I'm not sure there are academic sources that say this in such a sweeping way.
2. a citation of a subject matter expert, Alexander John Motyl, that seems completely relevant and uncontroversial
3. a citation needed tag for the claim "that had already become highly racialized in the late 19th century" which may be true but currently lacks a citation

Please can you explain/justify your three reverts Ymblanter, point me to the consensus, or self-revert? BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:52, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It is your responsibility to show that your edits correspond to consensus, not mine. If you do not like how the article is written we have WP:RFC Ymblanter (talk) 15:57, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That is not the most constructive way forward is it? You asserted that your edit had consensus on its side; I did not make that assertion about my edit. Presumably if you are correct it should be easy to show. Anyway, more importantly, if you can't, can you simply explain what's wrong with my three edits so we can discuss and reach consensus? BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:23, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What you reverted was not the text I recently added, and in fact I do not think I ever added it, it was in the article for the long time. this is de facto consensus. if you want my personal opinion, claiming that the guy who literally has written in one of his programmatic texts that Jews have to be exterminated is not an antisemite is ridiculous. Ymblanter (talk) 16:44, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ymblanter, I didn’t revert anything. I made a series of different edits. Which one are you referring to? BobFromBrockley (talk) 03:58, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Bobfrombrockley - You wrote - If we have strong academic sources saying "Bandera was an antisemite" or "Bandera was antisemitic" we could use that instead. You didn’t examine the references and Bandera's organization (OUN-B) as well as his bio elsewhere prior to removing the long-standing content? All that information is easily sourced. I’m not saying that the blanket statement is necessary here, but it appears to me (correct me if I’m wrong) that you some-how question Bandera’s connection to Nazism and everything associated with that movement. Do you need sources or you’ll find it yourself if not sure? - GizzyCatBella🍁 17:40, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

GizzyCatBella Which references do you mean? BobFromBrockley (talk) 04:00, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Bobfrombrockley I don’t understand. What which references? - GizzyCatBella🍁 04:14, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You said "You didn't examine the references". The sentence I removed was referenced to the newsletter intro I already mentioned, which I did examine. If there are other references for that sentence, they're not in the current version of our article, so I don't know how I should have examined them. Or am I missing something? BobFromBrockley (talk) 09:56, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Bobfrombrockley Read CHAPTER FIVE of this book for example. - GizzyCatBella🍁 04:24, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This source is very good on the antisemitism of the OUN-B, but it says nothing that I can see about Bandera's own specific attitudes, which it would need to do to anchor a claim about Bandera's attitudes. Nor does it contradict the Motyl quote which Ymblanter removed. BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:05, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

However, I found a quote elsewhere from Goda which is unequivocal, so have added that. BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:18, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Does the OUN-B slogan Long live the great, independent Ukraine without Jews, Poles ....Jews to the gallows ring the bell at all? GizzyCatBella🍁 04:30, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That's an OUN-B slogan from late Autumn 1941, when the subject of this article was in a Gestapo prison, and therefore can almost certainly not be attributed to him. Undoubtedly, that's relevant to a section on antisemitism in the OUN-B article, but it is not evidence for the blanket claim "Bandera was an antisemite", for which surely we need an actual citation rather than doing original research/synthesis? I'm not saying no such citation could be found, but until we have it, we need to delete that sentence. BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:00, 25 August 2022 (UTC) Correction: He was under house arrest at that point, not in a prison. Anyway, unless we have a source saying those were his words, I don't think that's enough. BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:01, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, so he was prison thing again, eh? He was a founder and leader of an ant-Semitic organization, but himself maybe loved the Jews? Okay, I see that this article needs some attention. - GizzyCatBella🍁 10:24, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it does need attention. Most of this section is about the OUN-B and not about Bandera personally. It should definitely be in the organisation's article if it isn't already (there is a section on antisemitism in that article) but if it's not about him personally, it should be trimmed here. BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:38, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Bobfrombrockley - After your recent edit, where you added and moved text around the article reads like this:

Historians and political scientists such as Jeffrey Kopstein and Grzegorz Rossoliński-Liebe have described Bandera as an antisemite. Bandera was an antisemite and Nazi collaborator.

In the edit summary, you asked: is this better?

Well, no. It's not. I would say you entirely failed on the stylistic front. Why don't you wait for comments from others and consensus to develop before making rapid edits that bruise the article? - GizzyCatBella🍁 11:45, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I'll undo that. I'm assuming you don't have a problem with the addition of the Goda quote? BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:34, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don’t even have a problem with discarding the blanket statement (your words). However, please keep in mind, that Bandera (to some a "freedom fighter") and his terrorist organization is responsible for deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people. This article requires mindful editing. - GizzyCatBella🍁 17:20, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The citation to justify the "anti-semite" statement is from the Newsletter of the European Politics and Society Section of the American Political Science Association. It is also a simple statement without references: "Bandera was an anti-Semite and Nazi collaborator." While this may be true, I'm sure the standards of Wikipedia require a much better reference than this.

This statement should be removed until a much better reference is found. 126.219.61.20 (talk) 07:42, 7 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think Rossoliński-Liebe explained Bandera's attitude towards anti-Semitism. There is no point in removing that statement from the article. I agree with Ymblanter and GizzyCatBella. Mhorg (talk) 08:31, 7 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think that @Bobfrombrockley's edits here are reasonable. It might seem clear from the OUN-B and original research that bandera can be clearly described as an antisemite. However such relatively strong statements still need to be verifiable to quality sources (which the newsletter isn't)

I've been reviewing what different sources say on this matter in order to figure out what is the neutral, verifiable description, and I haven't found any quality sources that directly say Bandera was an antisemite, however a few come close to varying degrees, so I think something close, but not as direct as that should be said. Perhaps "For a large proportion of his life, Bandera held antisemitic views."^[1][2] (Rossolinski-Liebe notes that Bandera eschewed open antisemitism post-war, which is another argument against the more direct statement.^[3])

Does that sound fine @Bobfrombrockley and others? There may be relevant sources or passages that I've missed. Tristario (talk) 07:23, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I definitely agree. We should say exactly what the historians say and not exceed it. I mangled some of my edits discussed above, but I think the best formulation is to say "Rossolinksi-Lieve says XX" and not have the blanket first sentence. Meanwhile, I noticed that the material on Bandera disapproving of Jewish wives was sourced from this: Carynnyk, M. (2011). Foes of our rebirth: Ukrainian nationalist discussions about Jews, 1929-1947. Nationalities Papers, 39(3), 315-352. doi:10.1080/00905992.2011.570327 Unless I'm going blind, it says nothing about Bandera at all, so I've replaced with cn tag. The article however looks like it would be useful for our OUN article. BobFromBrockley (talk) 08:13, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm fine with either just attribution or the kind of first sentence I suggested, or both.

Also that source does mention Bandera (I'll add a page to the citation), but I don't think the text totally matches the source, so I might change the wording Tristario (talk) 09:39, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Bandera wasn't directly involved in the slayings of civilians but he was the head of OUN-B that committed the murders in his name. Bandera also openly declared that Jews had no place in Ukraine. Keep that in mind. - GizzyCatBella🍁 09:54, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Also, Bandera wasn’t in jail when his organization unleashed pogroms soon after the Soviets retreated from Poland in 1941. - GizzyCatBella🍁 10:05, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

And finally, Bandera is described as such directly by historians. Here is one example - quote:

Stepan Bandera, an inmate of Sachsenhausen camp at this time, an ironic situation for an anti-Semite, later emerged as their best-known leader, still commemorated today as a national hero despite his collaboration with the Nazis. - GizzyCatBella🍁 10:43, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I understand why you and other people may feel strongly about this topic, however the job of a wikipedia article is to represent reliable sources, with a preference for stronger ones, in accordance with the policies of wikipedia, including WP:NPOV, WP:V, and WP:OR. Thanks for finding that source, however it's a passing mention in a book that isn't about bandera or the OUN. Per WP:RSCONTEXT we should use sources that are focused on Bandera, especially if we're making strong, wikivoice statements like this. As far as I can tell none of the sources I've found that are focused on Bandera directly call him an antisemite, however they come close, so we should do something similar. Tristario (talk) 11:21, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I added 3 more sources into the article that call Bandera directly an-Antisemite. - GizzyCatBella🍁 11:34, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

... and note that the Ukrainian Jewish community apparently has a unified stance on the issue also - see --> Ukraine’s new heroes: Anti-Semites and murderers of Jews. - GizzyCatBella🍁 11:55, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

See WP:NOTFORUM. The two extra sources you added are books written by journalists, one is a passing mention, and the other is arguably a passing mention. You already said you don't have an issue with discarding the "blanket statement", so I'm sure there's a compromise we can find. Is there a particular wording you would suggest based on sources such as the ones I cited in my above comment? Tristario (talk) 12:10, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

These seem like passing references to me, with authors of varying expertise. Better to use more specific experts, as proposed by Tristario, imho. BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:26, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Bobfrombrockley and Tristario - I think that sentence could be modified to something like " Bandera held anti-semitic views" but anything less than that will go against the sources. Anyway, that's my humble opinion for you. - GizzyCatBella🍁 12:11, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think that seems fine. @Bobfrombrockley Do you see any issues with that? Tristario (talk) 12:26, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Can live with that but I strongly think we need to trim out the material here that relates to OUN and not specifically to Bandera, and to lean more heavily on texts that clearly reflect the state of the art scholarship on the subject of this article rather than general non-expert accounts of WWII etc BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:26, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is probably a good idea, currently the section is a little confusing partially because it jumps between Ukrainian nationalism, the OUN, and bandera in a fairly unstructured way. WP:SYNTH should be avoided, too Tristario (talk) 06:11, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

PS - Tristario name those two journalists because I see only one and please don’t give me WP:NOTFORUM notes, okay? - GizzyCatBella🍁 12:18, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Arthur Allen (author) and Christopher Hale. Perhaps Christopher Hale technically isn't a journalist, but something close Tristario (talk) 12:25, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Bandera was absolutely not a fascist or affiliated with nazi ideas or anything to do with that crap. "Far-right" and "nazi" are phrases that set off alarms in people's heads, and are so often knowingly used by russian sympathizers to continue this bull sh t propaganda that has been formulated and used for decades to devalue Bandera's resistance through his torture by russians, and despite all the horrors, his impact to protect and empower Ukraine. STOP this misinformation against the people that endured russian hatred and lies. Please protect Ukraine and help resist colonization. 2607:FEA8:11A0:9B70:686A:D56F:7258:AC82 (talk) 05:48, 15 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Really? The mainstream historians seem to think differently. Ymblanter (talk) 06:27, 15 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You can have whatever opinions you like, while also being real about who Bandera was - and condemning him. For the record, I share your views concerning the Russo-Ukraine war, but I think that we shouldn't compromise on our objectivity. --Svennik (talk) 13:21, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"So while Bandera and his men were responsible for killing Jews, their ideology wasn’t fundamentally anti-Semitic." [3] Very reassuring, the killers were not believers of an antisemitic ideology. Xx236 (talk) 07:03, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

After skimming through this article I became painfully aware of the fact that it's actually Mr. Stepan Bandera who was responsible for the Holocaust. Not Nazi Germany as I was convinced before. Silly me.

In that case the designation of a war criminal and other fine titles by the so-called "mainstream historians" seem to be very credible. I wonder why aren't there any mentions of terrorist acts in the first sentence as well, considering the attempted assassinations of Polish authority figures by the OUN? 188.230.49.209 (talk) 20:03, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, "Bandera was sentenced to death for his involvement in the 1934 assassination of Poland's Minister of the Interior Bronisław Pieracki, but the sentence was commuted to life imprisonment." => Bandera was sentenced to death for his involvement in the 1934 assassination of Poland's Minister of the Interior Bronisław Pieracki, which was an act of terrorism, but the sentence was commuted to life imprisonment." How does that sound? --Jabbi (talk) 21:19, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have now read through the introduction/lead and the following

...[Bandera] was, together with his followers, largely responsible for the massacres of Polish civilians and partially for the Holocaust.

Seems to me to be way too strong. As far as I understand, Bandera was active only in a localised area around what is today Eastern Ukraine (around Lviv). He was used by and used in turn by Germans during WW2. I have however not seen anything linking responsibility for the Holocaust. There are 19 occurrences of the word Holocaust in the article, one is in the lead, the second one is in the Attitudes towards Bandera section and the 17 are in footnotes! @GizzyCatBella:, you've changed the meaning and link from the Holocaust in Ukraine to just Holocaust. That's pretty much indefensible if you ask me. I would doubt there is even credible sources to support that Bandera was partially responsible for the Holocaust in Ukraine. I'm removing that until there is something in the article to support such a statement. --Jabbi (talk) 23:39, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The lede as it currently stands lacks nuance. It essentially gives the impression that Bandera directly carried out the ethnic cleansing, when he wasn't actually in Ukraine at the time, and the mainstream view among historians such as Rossolinski-Liebe is that he doesn't have any personal responsibility, but historians think, to varying degrees, that he carries indirect "moral responsibility". That's not clear from the lede (Also it's WP:LEDEBOMBing, since this is barely discussed in the body of the article) Tristario (talk) 00:19, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(Also @Jabbi in regards to your recent edits, see Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Wikipedia can't be used as a source, the content you add to the article should be cited and verifiable to reliable sources) Tristario (talk) 00:25, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I realise this Tristario, I am trying to do a balancing act here pushed by lack of source material. The Wikipedia articles in turn are have sources in their language. Of course you should feel free to amend as you see fit.

I would prefer it if you just added things if they're cited to reliable sources (especially the kind suitable for historical topics WP:HISTRS). There's no rush to add content to the article --Tristario (talk) 00:40, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Duly noted Jabbi (talk) 00:42, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Also look at some of the guidance here if you're having any issues finding/accessing sources, if that's an issue Tristario (talk) 00:47, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, lots to fix in this article. I've just established that the original statement that Bandera was partially or otherwise responsible for the Holocaust in Ukraine was introduced with completely insufficient sources. It's been a horrible mistake from the beginning. --Jabbi (talk) 00:33, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Jabbi you need to reconsider your removal of Banderas involvement in the Holocaust. RS disagree with you --> Quote:

It is a sad comment on Ukrainian memory that the man declared a Hero of Ukraine in January headed a movement that was deeply involved in the Holocaust.

Norman J.W. Goda - Professor of the Holocaust Studies

Jabbi, please restore it. - GizzyCatBella🍁 02:15, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What are the RS say next to his responsibility for the Holocaust? - GizzyCatBella🍁 01:54, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

None of the reliable sources next to that directly say Bandera was partially responsible for the holocaust, it's mostly about the OUN-B. Rossolinski-Liebe's book says he bears little to no personal responsibility for the ethnic cleansing, but bears "moral responsibility". Tristario (talk) 02:14, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

During the WW2, the area Bandera's gangs OUN-B operated was occupied Poland not Ukraine - GizzyCatBella🍁 01:58, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]