Israel B‑class Top‑importance

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The quote from the source is as follows:

Ruth Schuster, senior business and finance editor for The Marker, a financial paper distributed with the Israel daily Haaretz, says while there are great lessons to be gleaned from Israel’s high-tech success, Start-up Nation engages in too much cheerleading for its own good.
“The book is filled with a gasping sense of wonder, which weakened the authors’ arguments,” says Ms. Schuster, who reviewed the book for Haaretz. “I think there’s a lot of to learn about how this high-tech success happened. But imagine you’re an Egyptian reading this, and you have a jaundiced view of Israel. It could have been interesting, but instead I think they’ll throw it aside after a few pages because they’d see it as biased.”

The source does not say that Arab readers already hold a biased view of this subject, and it is a misrepresentation of the source, as well as a violation of our NPOV policy, to say that the source says this. It is humorous that an editor would re-revert this and claim it is more consistent with the given source. Brewcrewer, could you please explain why you re-reverted this change? nableezy - 19:40, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking the time. I'll highlight the specific words to make it easier. "But imagine you’re an Egyptian reading this, and you have a jaundiced view of Israel. It could have been interesting, but instead I think they’ll throw it aside after a few pages because they’d see it as biased.” Of course there are slight differences between the source and what it says in the article, but demanding that it say the same thing would run into copyright problems.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 20:14, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Demanding that it says the same thing is not what I was doing, though making up what I said could easily meet the definition of that link you provided. However, demanding that it has the same meaning is what is at issue. Since you italicized, not highlighted, the relevant portion I think we can assume that you read it. The author said that an Egyptian who likely holds a unfavorable view of Israel itself, not the topic of the book, would be put off by the books constant cheerleading. Not that they "already have a biased view" of Israel's economic story as you have reinserted into the article. If you do not correct the falsehood you reinserted I will have to spend the time cleaning up your mess. Only a "wikilawyer" would demand others do that, and you arent one, right? nableezy - 20:30, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The context is quite clear that the "topic" is Israel, not its economic history. Let me know if there any other other real issues between all the rhetoric that needs responding to. Best, --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 21:29, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

All right, Ill take care of it. nableezy - 01:58, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There's another problem here as well. "imagine you’re an Egyptian reading this, and you have a jaundiced view of Israel" - does "imagine" refer only to the first part of this phrase? It's not at all clear that Schuster is suggesting that all Egyptians have a jaundiced view of Israel; perhaps he is merely suggesting it's likely that many do. This makes the current phrasing in our article problematic. Schuster is talking about the book and how it may be perceived, not making a point about different nationalities and their biases. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:46, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The most sensible understanding is that in his opinion most Arabs are anti-Israel (very reasonable position). Not all Arabs and not one random Egyptian. If it were the latter, why choose "Egyptian" and not one "Belorussian"?--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 00:55, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Imagine you're an Israeli reading this, and you had been injured by a rocket fired from the Gaza strip" - is that suggesting that all or even most Israelis have been injured by rockets fired from the Gaza strip? The grammatical construct being used does not make any indication either way about this aspect of the meaning, so we should be using the conservative definition of what the author means, rather than making assumptions based on a "sensible understanding". If we word it neutrally, then the reader can decide for themselves what they think about other people's views of Israel. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 01:54, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Major analogy fail unless the context is something similar like "Israelis have a jaundiced view of being fired on by rockets."--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 01:57, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The analogy is not for the situation, but for the grammatical construct. You don't think it has some ambiguity? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 02:44, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

<--Since the quote is contentious, why not use a different quote, one that does not potentially insult Arab readers? And maybe one that is more closely related to Schuster's opinion of the book? betsythedevine (talk) 12:42, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds like a great idea! --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:00, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the citation that contained the phrase "Stolen Lands". It is pure POV pushing (not intentionally by the editor of course), and has low encyclopedic value. It doesn't concern the book, but the general concept in it's basis, and looks more like an opinion column. Its like bringing general criticism of magic in a Harry Potter article. Broccolo (talk) 18:49, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

+The US Aid is already mentioned in the article. Broccolo (talk) 18:49, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You cant remove a review because you dont like what it has to say. It is a review of the book and a valid source. You dont like his view, tough. nableezy - 18:52, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's a matter of like/dislike, but a matter of POV under the envelope of literary criticism. "Stolen lands" is a POV whether in the article itself or in a citation. Broccolo (talk) 18:58, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In that case "Israel" is a "POV". Either way, you have violated the 1RR. Barring a self-rv Ill see you at AE shortly. nableezy - 19:01, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Good try, but not enough. The article is not about I/P conflict, and not even marked as such. Broccolo (talk) 19:07, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]