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The reference with doi:10.1093/milbal/103.1.344 should have URL https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1093/milbal/103.1.344 added, since the DOI is non-functional. The doi-broken-date should be updated to today also, since it still no longer works. and the broken date is the last checked date. AManWithNoPlan (talk) 13:42, 5 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This {{citation|title=Table 41: Selected Non-State Armed Groups|publisher=The Military Balance|volume=103|pages=344–353|doi=10.1093/milbal/103.1.344|year=2003|doi-broken-date=31 May 2021}} Table 41: Selected Non-State Armed Groups, vol. 103, The Military Balance, 2003, pp. 344–353, doi:10.1093/milbal/103.1.344 (inactive 31 May 2021){{citation}}: CS1 maint: DOI inactive as of May 2021 (link) should become {{citation|title=Table 41: Selected Non-State Armed Groups|journal=The Military Balance|volume=103|issue=1|pages=344–353|doi=10.1093/milbal/103.1.344|year=2003|doi-broken-date=5 November 2021|url=https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1093/milbal/103.1.344}} "Table 41: Selected Non-State Armed Groups", The Military Balance, 103 (1): 344–353, 2003, doi:10.1093/milbal/103.1.344 (inactive 5 November 2021){{citation}}: CS1 maint: DOI inactive as of November 2021 (link) AManWithNoPlan (talk) 00:30, 6 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Done — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 18:37, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Second edit should be done. https://www.arabnews.com/node/1406811/%7B%7B should be changed to https://www.arabnews.com/node/1406811 because somehow junk got added to the end. AManWithNoPlan (talk) 14:26, 6 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Done — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 18:40, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Third edit: the dead url http://www.academia.edu/download/32838100/bahgat.pdf should be replaced with https://web.archive.org/web/20170809064528/http://ssi.armywarcollege.edu/pubs/parameters/Articles/08winter/bahgat.pdf and the s2cid=150794709 should also be added. AManWithNoPlan (talk) 14:35, 6 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Done. I added it as archive-url, which I believe is the correct way — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 18:44, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Forth edit needed: dead url http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a495015.pdf needs replaced with https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a495015.pdf AManWithNoPlan (talk) 14:36, 6 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Done. I added archive-url. I just need the archive-date for these. (I am unable to access these links so I can't get this information myself.) — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 18:47, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The page has users active that consistently edit in comments in favor of the MEK. After proving that all the sources they add are related to the MEK or don't actually exist they refuse to acknowledge and engage in edit warring.

The original point mentions that the MEK won a court case against major German Newspapers that they have to retract an article. When checking the sources we can find the following:

1.Source is ArabNews

This was a local court case in Germany, no major German newspaper reports about it but a Saudi government affiliated newspaper does. Then when we look at the author of the piece we can see that author is affiliated with the MEK.

Link to MEK website:

https://mek-iran.com/tag/ali-safavi/

2. Source is Freitag.de a small local newspaper in Germany. We can see that the article is marked with the following statement:

"Bei diesem Beitrag handelt es sich um ein Blog aus der Freitag-Community" which translates to "This post is taken from a blog of the Freitag-Community"

The Author mentions a court document with ID: 324 O 233/20

First googling this document ID, will once again only lead to MEK sources. Going directly to the courts website we can see that this document does not exist:

https://www.landesrecht-hamburg.de/bsha/search

We can also once again see that the author is affiliated with the MEK:

https://mek-iran.com/tag/martin-patzelt/

The 3. Source is once again an obscure newspaper with very limited reach. The author is Struan Stevenson.

We can once again see that the author is associated with the MEK:

https://mek-iran.com/tag/struan-stevenson/

This is a clear part of their disinformation campaign:

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/nov/09/mek-iran-revolution-regime-trump-rajavi

A Summary:

All three sources are affiliated with the MEK. Mentioned court document does not exist. No major German or Non-German outlets reporting, but obscure ones in Saudi Arabia do. This is clearly damaging to the reputation of the Frankfurter Allgemeine and Spiegel. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.75.58.208 (talk) 14:30, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If Arab News reports something that a German newspaper does not report, then that is what it is. We don't edit according to national reports. When you find something that shows Arab News in invalid as source, then add this information here. Until then, the content has sources that are valid. 103.233.2.129 (talk) 15:00, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You are purposefully ignoring that the author is also listed as a supporter on the MEK site itself, that makes him biased by the rules of wikipedia. This is also a damaging allegation and the ArabNews only mentions it without any reference material. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.75.58.208 (talk) 15:08, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You are doing too much investigation work, and all you need to do is show where it is indicated that ArabNews is not a good source for Wikipedia. 103.233.2.129 (talk) 15:34, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Your argumentation is dishonest. First you argue that ArabNews is trustworthy, which by itself is questionable. There is no freedom of press or freedom of speech in Saudi Arabia, it is also directly influenced by the government of Saudi Arabia a major enemy of Iran, this by itself makes it biased enough. Then after I show even further that the source is biased, by the fact that the author is a supporter of the MEK, you suddenly shift your argument that to me doing to much investigative work. There is nothing in the rules that says we need to take any sources by face value. This is also very easy to verify by a simple google search and all in all took 5 minutes with public sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.75.58.208 (talk) 15:51, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It is not our job to determine the level of freedom of press in Saudi Arabia. You do too much investigative work like I say already. Arab News is a reliable source as far I know. 103.233.2.129 (talk) 18:09, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So you actually accept that source is biased, but you want to keep it because I did too much "investigative work". Have you even read the rules of wikipedia? You have not, this will be deleted by the mods eventually and hopefully the page will be permanently protected against you disinformation trolls.

• As it is mentioned in this list, there is no consensus that Arab News is a reliable source, especially on the subjects related to Saudi Arabian politics.Ghazaalch (talk) 16:00, 19 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There is no consensus that ArabNews is not reliable, and the subject in this page is "Iranian politics" not "Saudi Arabian politics". If we were to follow such standards, we should also ban American politics from this article just because some American press has been favorable of the MEK and against the dictatorship in Iran. So there has not been any "manipulation" or "faking sources". 103.233.2.129 (talk) 17:06, 19 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You are trying to divert the discussion from the author, who obviously is either an MEK member of supporter to a discussion about if ArabNews is unbiased. The author is already not, there is no further discussion needed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.75.33.149 (talk) 18:33, 19 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sources like this are still supporting this fact. 103.233.2.129 (talk) 11:47, 21 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So if this happened in the court ordered them to take it down why is it still up?

https://www.spiegel.de/politik/iran-eine-politsekte-in-albanien-will-das-regime-in-teheran-stuerzen-a-00000000-0002-0001-0000-000162407686 "Über 2000 ihrer Leute leben in einem Camp in Albanien – Aussteiger erzählen von Psychoterror." Once again you come up with another fabricated source, that neither shows the court order and this time does not even have an author. You MEK people can pay some authors and fake some articles, but what you can can't do is make it actually disappear from the newspapers you are slandering.

I don't know why and I'm not going to do an internal investigation into what the Spiegel did or did not do. If you're that interested you can contact APNews and ask them to do a follow up story about that. And please stop calling other editors names, I did not refer to you as a "regime-paid troll", so don't call me a PMOI troll just because I provided some source you asked about. 103.233.2.129 (talk) 16:21, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Most of the above sources seem to be opinion pieces covered by WP:RSOPINION, where some of the authors have links to the NCRI. However, the AP News source looks like a solid, reliable source. If there are no objections, I will go ahead and replace those sources with the AP News source.VR _talk 07:55, 29 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Vice regent. It is OK with me. Ghazaalch (talk) 13:04, 1 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I added the AP News citation to the article and remobed the cats i talked about in section underneath this one because nobody was able to provide citations for them. 103.233.2.129 (talk) 19:00, 1 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Can somebody provide sources supporting these categories?

Category:Anti-government factions of the Syrian civil war Category:Banned socialist parties Category:Iranian money launderers Category:Iranian fraudsters Category:Islamic socialist political parties Category:Political organizations based in France

103.233.2.129, you put this back in the article, can you please show the sources for this? 103.233.2.129 (talk) 15:05, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You removed them, so the burden of proof is on you not on me. There is many sources in the wiki article, if they had a change of orientation nowadays then they should still be mentioned as it is historically accurate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.75.58.208 (talk) 15:12, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I cannot find sources to prove they don't belong in the article. It works in the contrary way. If you want these categories in the article, you (or someone else needs to give sources to show they are relevant. 103.233.2.129 (talk) 15:32, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The sources that they are are a socialist party etc. are in the wiki article I am not going to to engage in a dishonest discussion where you try me to get the work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.75.58.208 (talk) 15:51, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have not seen any source that say the PMOI is a socialist party in the Wiki article. 103.233.2.129 (talk) 18:11, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

By 1973, the members of the Marxist–Leninist MEK launched an "internal ideological struggle". Members who did not convert to Marxism were expelled or reported to SAVAK.[128] This new group adopted a Marxist, more secular and extremist identity. They appropriated the MEK name, and in a book entitled Manifesto on Ideological Issues, the central leadership declared "that after ten years of secret existence, four years of armed struggle, and two years of intense ideological rethinking, they had reached the conclusion that Marxism, not Islam, was the true revolutionary philosophy".[129] Ghazaalch (talk) 16:44, 19 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If you read that section carefully, you will see that this information is about Organization of Struggle for the Emancipation of the Working Class, this is talking about how in the 1970s the OSEWC "adopted Marxist, more secular and extremist identity". Maybe that needs to be made more clear in the article, but nothing in the article indicates that the MEK is or was a socialist party, so that category is wrongly placed here. 103.233.2.129 (talk) 17:14, 19 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A 2009 U.S. Department of State annual report states that their ideology is a blend of Marxism, Islamism and feminism.[269]

According to a RAND Corporation policy report, the MEK initially acquired supporters and members through "its Marxist social policy, coeducational living opportunities, antipathy to U.S. influence, and—unlike traditional Leftist groups—support for a government that reflected Islamic ideals. The members, which primarily consisted of University students and graduates, were encouraged to live together and form close social bonds. Ghazaalch (talk) 11:24, 20 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I read the article. The PMOI incorporated some Marxist elements in their ideology in the 1970s. After a schisms between the Marxist part and the Muslim counter part, the PMOI has been Muslim. So while it's ok to explain this in the article, to categorize the group as a "socialist party" is plainly incorrect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.233.2.129 (talk) 11:49, 21 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Vice regent can you please check this revert by you? The source does not say that the MEK bombed the United Nations compound in Iraq, it only says that this happened. TheDreamBoat (talk) 16:34, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The page number doesn't seem to be given. I checked the source and on page 88 it says "August 19, 2003: Bombing of UN compound, prompting UN withdrawal from Iraq". Is that what you're referring to? If so, you're correct.VR _talk 22:18, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the removal[1]. I presume, based on your edit, that you were looking at the same page as me.VR _talk 16:20, 21 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The sentence The MEK was founded on 5 September 1965 by leftist Iranian students affiliated with the Freedom Movement of Iran to oppose the Shah Pahlavi. currently has two references:

• Newton, Michael (2014). "Bahonar, Mohammad-Javad (1933–1981)". Famous Assassinations in World History: An Encyclopedia. Vol. 1. ABC-CLIO. p. 28. ISBN 978-1-61069-286-1. Although the Bahonar-Rajai assassination was solved with identification of bomber Massoud Kashmiri as an MEK agent he remained unpunished. Various mujahedin were arrested and executed in reprisal, but Kashmiri apparently slipped through the dragnet.
• Chehabi, Houchang E. (1990). Iranian Politics and Religious Modernism: The Liberation Movement of Iran Under the Shah and Khomeini. I.B. Tauris. p. 211. ISBN 978-1-85043-198-5.

The quote given for the first reference seems to be completely unrelated. I wonder if it was initially added to support something else and text-source integrity has been lost. Does anyone have access to these sources to verify if they support the statement, if the page is correct, and possibly fix the quote? Thank you! MarioGom (talk) 17:40, 21 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That was added in this edit. As the user is tbanned, I can't ping them or ask them about this edit. I didn't find any mention of "Freedom Movement of Iran" in Abrahamian (though its possible he mentions them with a slightly different name). The beginning are mentioned around pages 87-88. Actually I think our current article doesn't do justice to the very early history of the MEK. But this article is fairly large without much room to expand. Maybe we should consider WP:SPLITing out various parts of the article into separate ones.VR _talk 19:00, 21 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I looked into the source and found the quote "founded by leftist Iranian students in 1965 to oppose Shah Pahlavi". I didn't find anything in the first source about the Freedom Party of Iran. I couldn't access the second source.VR _talk 19:45, 21 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for looking up the edit introducing the reference. So the quote was obviously misplaced since it was introduced. The following source:

• Rezai, Hamid (2014). "Mujāhidīn-i Khalq". In Shahin, Emad (ed.). The Oxford Encyclopedia of Islam and Politics. Oxford University Press.

States that [...] repressive policies of the Shah Muhammad Reza Pahlavi's regime against the nonviolent opposition, prompted some members of the religious group within the Liberation Movement of Iran (LMI) to reconsider their strategies in the struggle against Pahlavi rule. [...] younger LMI activists, all university students [...]

This is quite consistent with what Abrahamian (1989) says (sorry, I don't have the quote at hand right now). We can replace the bad source with this encyclopedia entry, and/or Abrahamian with the right page and quote, change the organization name to Liberation Movement of Iran to match the source. Also a few sources mention September 1965, but I didn't see the exact date 5 September 1965 yet. MarioGom (talk) 01:18, 23 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

TheDreamBoat can you explain this revert? I found dozens of scholarly sources (of which I gave 6 citations because I thought that'd be enough) that refer to the organization by alternative, fully English, versions of its name. So when I added these names I qualified it with "This is sometimes translated into English as...". So why would you remove this? VR _talk 13:24, 24 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You can see my edit summary, but I can explain more if you need. Many sources in the article (and also many not in this article) indicate that the most common names used are "People's Mujahedin of Iran", "Mojahedin-e-Khalq", "PMOI", and "MEK". Then there are other alternative names or spellings or translations (some among them "People's Mujahideen", "Mujahideen of the People", and so on and so on). If a clarification is needed in the article because a source uses an alternative spelling or translation, then we can make that clarification. But the section "Other names" already has the most WP:DUE names the scholarly literature uses when referring to the MEK. TheDreamBoat (talk) 11:20, 29 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@TheDreamBoat: WP:DUE doesn't mean we completely omit information, except when "a viewpoint is held by an extremely small minority". But this is not the case here. In fact, ngrams suggest that until 1983, "People's Strugglers" was more common than "People's Mujahedin". How many sources do you require to show you that "People's Strugglers" has been a commonly used name for the organization? VR _talk 14:39, 29 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment It's worth mentioning all of the names used authoritatively by reliable sources at some point. The Ngram strongly suggests that the "People's strugglers" was used widely from 1975 to 1985 and was the dominant term in the late 1970s. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:32, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Here are 25 sources that use the two English translations for MEK:

• "People Strugglers":^{[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10]}
• "Holy Warriors":^[11][12][13], Government of Canada[2], United States Department of the Treasury[3], NPR[4], LA Times[5], The Intercept[6], Carnegie Council[7], Slate[8], The Guardian[9], WSJ[10], NBC News[11], CBC News[12], Washington Post[13].

Honestly, this should not have been a controversial edit. All I did was add English translation of the Farsi/Arabic name and provided 6 scholarly sources. I should not have to dig up 25 sources just to make small edits.VR _talk 17:22, 29 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

TheDreamBoat I see you've been making edits to several articles, including this one, so can you please respond here as well? Thanks, VR _talk 16:08, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The MEK went through a strange period in the 1970s, specially from around 1975 to the Iranian Revolution. Most of its members were killed by SAVAK or incarcerated during this time, and the few left were pressured to convert to the Marxist splinter group that around that time became Peykar. I think that distinction is important, and it is a distinction that is sort of made in the article.

About "People Strugglers" and "Holy Warriors", most of the sources you provided make the distinction that they are referring to Mujahideen-e Khalq or MEK (and its different spellings), and these are already in "Other Names". Below I wrote an overview of the sources you gave and how they all make that distinction.

1. uses "Mujahideen-e Khalq" (and then gives a translation),
2. I don't have access to this source
3. gives the description "Mojahedin-i Khalq-i Iran - known henceforth as MEK"
4. I could not access page 188, but page 334 says "Mojahedin-e Khalq-e Iran (People's Strugglers of Iran)
5. "The People's Strugglers of Iran (Mojahedin-e Khalq-e Iran)"
6. "People's Strugglers (Muhajedin-e Khalq)" (unpublished PhD thesis?)
7. page 242 says "The People's Strugglers (Mujahideen-e Khalq)"
8. "The Iranian People's Strugglers (IPS: Mojahedin-e Khalq)"
9. "Mojahedin-e Khalq (People's Strugglers)"
10. I don't have access to this source
11. I don't have access to this source
12. "The Mujahedine Khalq (MEK; People's Holy Warriors), also known as the Mujahedin-e Khalq Organization (MKO)"
13. "the Mojahedin-e Khalq (People's Holy Warriors)"
14. "Mujahedin-e-Khalq (MEK) (also known among other names as Sãzimãn-i Mujãhidin-i Khalq-i Irãn (Holy Warrior Organization of the Iranian People) / Sazman-i Mojahedin-i Khalq-i Iran (Organization of the Freedom Fighters of the Iranian People) / Sazeman-e Mojahedin-e Khalq-e Iran (Organization of People’s Holy Warriors of Iran) / Sazeman-e-Mujahideen-e-Khalq-e-Iran, Mujahedin-e-Khalq (MEK), Mojahedin-e Khalq Organization (MKO), Mujahiddin e Khahq, al-Khalq Mujahideen Organization, Mujahedeen Khalq, Modjaheddins khalg, Moudjahiddin-é Khalq, National Liberation Army of Iran (NLA) (the military wing of the MEK) / Armée de Libération nationale iranienne (ALNI) and People’s Mujahidin Organization of Iran (PMOI) / People’s Mujahedin of Iran (PMOI) / Organisation des moudjahiddin du peuple d’Iran (OMPI) / Organisation des moudjahidines du peuple)"
15. very long list of names for the MEK, and all include the ones already in the "Other names" section (plus many more)
16. "They were unhappy with two stories about the People's Mujahedeen of Iran, also known as the Mujahedin-e Khalq (People's Holy Warriors, MEK). "
17. "This is Camp Ashraf, home to the Mujahedin Khalq: the people’s holy warriors."
18. "the MEK, whose name translates to “Holy Warriors of the People,”" (article uses "MEK" throughout)
19. "In the matter of the designation of Mujahadin-e Khalq, also known as MEK, also known as Mujahadin-e Khalq Organization, also known as MKO, also known as Muslim Iranian Students' Society, also known as National Council of Resistance, also known as NCR, also known as Organization of the People's Holy Warriors of Iran, also known as the National Liberation Army of Iran, also known as NLA, also known as National Council of Resistance of Iran, also known as NCRI, also known as Sazeman-e Mujahadin-e Khalq-e Iran, "
20. "The NLA’s parent organization—called the Mujahedin-e-Khalq (MEK)—or “People’s Holy Warriors”"
21. Article refers to the MEK as "MEK" throughout most the article
22. "The Mujahedin e-Khalq, or People's Holy Warriors..."
23. Article refers to the MEK as "MEK" throughout most of the article
24. Article refers to the MEK as "MEK" throughout most of the article

So whatever variant name or translation is used, most of these sources make it clear that we are talking about the Mojahedin-e Khalq or MEK (and its different spellings). Like i said in my first comment, the most common names used are already in the "Other names" section. If there are variant in translations of the name in English that need a clarification, then we can make that distinction in the article, but the names in "Other Names" section are so prominent that even the sources you provided are already making that clarification for us.

The section "Other names" contain the most WP:DUE names already. TheDreamBoat (talk) 19:21, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The article currently says, based on this NYT article, that "Former military officers who had aided in guarding the MEK camp in Iraq said "its members had been free to leave since American military began protecting it in 2003." The officers said they had not found any prison or torture facilities". But this is selective quoting of the NYT article. The NYT points out that these particular officers had been suggested to NYT by MEK itself. And that when NYT contacted Capt. Matthew Woodside who oversaw the MEK camp (and who "was not one of those whom the M.E.K. suggested I contact"), he gave a different account. According to Woodside "American troops did not have regular access to camp buildings or to group members whose relatives said they were held by force", that American troops were allowed access to MEK members "only after a delay of several days", and that it was difficult for women to escape.

This text should be rewritten to give a more accurate representation of NYT.VR _talk 16:07, 24 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I see Ypatch made that edit, so I hope they can explain.VR _talk 05:20, 29 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

VR: the source supports the passage, but if you think that the passage can be written better, then propose a revision (rather than pinging me with "I hope they can explain"). Thank you. Ypatch (talk) 04:45, 30 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ypatch, it is the responsibility of every editor (including myself) to "include contradictory and significant qualifying information from the same source." So if I ever err in not including qualifying information in the same source then please ping me and remind me of my mistake as well (esp if that information is in the very next sentence), and I will strive to correct it. Anyway, I have rewritten the passage. Feedback is welcome.VR _talk 05:13, 30 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Vice regent: You've skipped proposing a revision and just edited the article, also removing some things that we didn't talk about (so I find you edit summary sort of misleading). I have partly restored that content and also kept some of what you added about Captain Woodside. I hope that resolves this. Ypatch (talk) 05:22, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Ypatch: I don't see a functional difference in this edit (maybe I'm missing something), so I'm fine with your edit. And I generally prefer to follow the WP:BRD cycle (which means make a bold edit first, then discuss, but do not edit war).VR _talk 05:46, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Vice regent. Still I think the existing text is not a fair representative of the NYT. As you wrote above, the original text is saying that the two officers who gave a good view of MEK, had been suggested to NYT by MEK itself, while the one who NYT reporter, himself, chose, gave a different view, and this should be clarified in this article. The overall content of the NYT is against MEK hypocrisy, while the existing text in this article shows that most of officers had a good view of MEK. Ghazaalch (talk) 13:19, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• @Ghazaalch: feel free to suggest an alternative. But my bigger concern is that there is duplication of material and that the sources used earlier in the paragraph appear to be WP:SELFPUB. The book "The United Nations and Human Rights in Iraq" is published by a publisher which describes itself as "New Generation Publishing is the leading UK self-publishing service dedicated to helping more writers to sell more books". Likewise, "People's Mojahedin of Iran – Mission report" appears to be the self-published work of some politicians. And look carefully at the url, it links to "http://ncr-iran.org", which is the official website of the NCRI/MEK itself.VR _talk 00:34, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Vice regent: Sorry for the delay. I changed the text to a more accurate representation of NYT. About the self-published content, it is obvious that should be removed or replaced with a better source, so go ahead and do what you perceive better. Thanks for your good work.Ghazaalch (talk) 03:56, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This image added by VR recently was uploaded by the same editor that uploaded the image removed at commons for copyright violation. I've been going through some of the user's other uploads, and they all seem to be relating to the MEK, some making outlandish allegations, like these ones "Non-Iranian rent-a-crowd woman and her children in PMOI rally""African-American citizens with People's Mujahedin of Iran banners in demonstrations in front of headquarters of the United Nations, New York" "Statement of the People's Mujahedin of Iran about attempted assassination of an American diplomat via Bakhtar Emrooz". There are also many with questionable copyright claims (like the one that was previously deleted). I will take this up at Commons in detail. For now I'm replacing the image with an image from Operation Mersad (which is relevant to that section). Ypatch (talk) 05:33, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Can you explain the copyright issue with the image I uploaded? Just because an image was uploaded by someone who has made copyright mistakes in the past doesn't make it a copyright violation. If there's confusion then perhaps I can ask an admin who is an expert in copyright issues.VR _talk 05:48, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know who is right or wrong about the copyright, but VR added this image to the article [14], and it was then replaced for another image by Ypatch[15]. But Ghazaalch then restored Vice regent's edit, which is a violation of the "Consensus Is Required" restriction of this article.

Ghazaalch are you aware that the article is under Consensus is required restrictions? It's indicated on top of this page: "Consensus required: All editors must obtain consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion). This includes making edits similar to the ones that have been challenged. If in doubt, do not make the edit." TheDreamBoat (talk) 19:23, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• The copyright claims should be discussed at Commons. Is there any other reason to oppose the inclusion of this image? MarioGom (talk) 23:33, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Given that nobody has brought up the issue at Commons, and so far there is no other objection to the image, I have restored it [16]. MarioGom (talk) 10:14, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Ypatch's concern was not valid so my edit was not violating anything. Copyright concerns should be taken to Commons.Ghazaalch (talk) 08:43, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If there is any willingness here to summarize the article, I'd be willing to help summarize it to meet WP:ARTICLESIZE guidelines. My principle for first pass summarizing is as follows:

• reduce the character count as much as possible
• while preserving all significant information

These principles might seem contradictory but I think they can be maintained with some clever wordsmithing. The second principle is especially important because removing information can open a (POV) can of worms, so I won't do that. The reason I'm posting here is to ensure my efforts have consensus. If my hard work summarizing just gets reverted (as it did in the past), I'll probably just give up and go work on some other article.VR _talk 06:48, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

VR, I agree and I will give my assistance in this task. I notice that you added more text to the section "Fundraising", which is already a very long section. I will start with that section.

Here is an explanation of what I will do:

Merge all of the Terrornomic interviews with Nejat Society in one paragraph

Separate information by IBTimes and the Guardian source.

Remove "In December 2001, a joint FBI-Cologne police operation discovered what a 2004 report calls "a complex fraud scheme involving children and social benefits", involving the sister of Maryam Rajavi" because this is about Rajavi's sister and not the MEK.

Also remove "Initially, The Greens supported these organizations while it was unaware of their purpose." because it is unrelated to "Fundraising".

Also remove "In 1999, after a 2 1⁄2-year investigation, Federal authorities arrested 29 individuals in Operation Eastern Approach,[12] of whom 15 were held on charges of helping MEK members illegally enter the United States.[13] The ringleader was pleaded guilty to providing phony documents to MEK members and violation of Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996.[14][15]" because it is unrelated to "Fundraising"

I think the section will be turned to about the right size for something like "Fundraising", also keeping all the sources. TheDreamBoat (talk) 12:28, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

TheDreamBoat I specifically said "while preserving all significant information" yet you seem to have removed significant information in your edit. Also you need to stop making edits (eg this) that make it hard to follow what exactly you are doing. So some of your summarizing in that edit might be good, but it is lumped with removal of significant information which I don't agree with. So I suggest you self-revert, then make changes one paragraph at a time, and I suggest sticking to summarizing without removing significant information.VR _talk 15:14, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

TheDreamBoat: Remove "In December 2001, a joint FBI-Cologne police operation discovered what a 2004 report calls "a complex fraud scheme involving children and social benefits", involving the sister of Maryam Rajavi" because this is about Rajavi's sister and not the MEK. No. The cited report is a criminal investigation of MEK. It was investigated and reported in the context of MEK. It could use better sourcing (or check what Goulka 2009 says about this), but I don't think the claim that this is unrelated to MEK has much merit. MarioGom (talk) 19:04, 1 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

MarioGom ok, I missed that this was in the context of an investigation about MEK, so i will put it back in the article. I suggest this summary:

"In 2001, a joint FBI-Cologne police operation discovered what a fraud scheme involving social benefits and children in relation to Maryam Rajavi's sister."

Let me know if you agree.

Vice regent can you explain which part you think should be restored to the article and why? also please don't bring discussions from other articles into this talk page, that makes everything more confusing. Thank you. TheDreamBoat (talk) 19:20, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• I have summarized the section into 273 words, down from 507 words that it was before (including moving an unrelated sentence out of the section).[17] I believe my summary retains all significant information but expresses it in about half the words. For reference, TheDreamBoat's summary was 206 words. I have also replaced an unreliable source (WP:IBTIMES) with more reliable sources. Hope that is satisfactory for all.VR _talk 03:57, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• I'd be willing to help with this too. The lead is far too too detailed and much of the article reads the same way. Pious Brother (talk) 18:40, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• There are sources repeated in that section that don’t need to be repeated. For example, RAND and Clark sources were repeated multiple times in the section. That is unnecessary, so I have tried to merge them. Tried also to find a middle-ground between VR's edit and what was there before. By the way, I could not find the source for “Cohen, 2013”. About the material supported by Cohen 2009, this seems to be in context of the 1980s, so I added this to the article. Ypatch (talk) 05:05, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Ypatch: Multiple footnotes to the same source, even within the same section, are often required to maintain text-source integrity. Also, given how controversial this page is, supporting a statement with multiple reliable sources is important, and they should generally not be dropped if they support the statements. MarioGom (talk) 17:22, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

MarioGom: I don't think that repeatingly quoting the same sources is helpful, especially when we are trying to summarize the section. Can you explain what crucial information is missing in that section that isn't there at the moment? Ypatch (talk) 06:01, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ypatch: I haven't been able to check the sources, so I don't know if any is missing. But per WP:INTEGRITY, if one of the footnotes was meant to support the immediately preceding content, it should stay. A footnote in a different place is not implied to support that content. MarioGom (talk) 15:09, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

MarioGom: Can you explain where I have placed a footnote in a different place where is not implied to support that content"? Ypatch (talk) 04:56, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Ypatch: you are confusing "repeatingly quoting the same sources" with "repeating the same content". The former is absolutely fine, and given some sources are more comprehensive than others, we will certainly be quoting some sources very often.VR _talk 05:46, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand the purpose of your edit. Your edit creates several issues and its not clear what exactly were you trying to fix? Here are some of the issues with your edit:

• You have qualified well-known facts with "according to". For example, MEK's funding by Iraq is a well known fact attested to by multiple reliable sources. Are there any sources that deny this? If not, why did you qualify this with "according to". It waters down a fact into an opinion.
• You changed:

A UK-based charity, "Iran Aid", claimed to raise funds for poor Iranians, but the money instead went to MEK militants in Iraq. It collected approximately £5 million annually, until it was closed in 2001 by the Charity Commission for England and Wales.

to:

Through a charity called Iran Aid, MEK also raised around £5m per year in Britain, which was closed in 2001.

Why did you remove that (1) the money was collected under false premises, and (2) it was diverted to military purposes? Goulka calls it "MeK sham charity", Cohen says "The money was supposed to be given...to poor Iranian families... [but instead] used to finance the Mojahedin’s armed fighters based in Iraq".

• You replaced ""Committee for Human Rights" was a charity used to supported MEK's military activities with ""Committee for Human Rights" was a charity used to support MEK's activities". You omitted "military" when the source specifically says "money was going in part to support the group's "terrorist activities""? Another source says that the charity's money was "used to buy rocket-propelled grenades and other weapons for fighting the Iranian government." Is there any RS that denies this?
• You removed "In Germany, the MEK operated a charity for Iranian orphans, using false pictures of children. At its height, the charity raised 600-700 DM/day, until it was closed in 1988 by police." Why?
• You removed "The MEK has also been linked to international money-laundering activities." Why?
• Your edit completely messed up the order. My 1st para summarized Iraqi and Saudi funding, my 2nd para summarized MEK funding by charities. But in your edit, you first mention Iraq and Saudi funding, then you mention charities in the US, Germany and Britain, then you come back to Iraq funding again, then you go back to charity in the UK. Why?
• You added "[the Dutch intelligence agency, AIVD's] allegations constituted "lies from the Iranian regime"". I did find this in this source. Saying that the Dutch allegations came from Iran is not the whole story. The 2002 AIVD report seems to attribute its intelligence to "Western intelligence and security services" as opposed to the Iranian government.VR _talk 05:46, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Vanamonde93: and @El C: Some editors have been restoring edits in this article after they were reverted. Is this page still under WP:consensus required restriction? Ypatch (talk) 05:48, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is a re-reminder: please don't ping me to this page. I'll let everyone know if and/or when I wanna change that. Since WP:ARBIRP has concluded, potential violations can be summitted to WP:AE now instead of the more chaotic usual places. El_C 10:21, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]