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== Stop the edit war misinterpreting scholarly sources in order to omit Mongolia's key inclusion in Central Asia while simultaneously overstating Afghanistan's inclusion ==
To the editor Casparti: Stop deleting my work which are cited with scholarly sources. As a layman, you are consciously misinterpreting the author Humboldt and others on the definition of Central Asia. Humboldt explicitly explicitly included Mongolia, since he explicitly stated that the Eastern end of Central Asia stops at the Greater Khingan mountains of Eastern Inner Mongolia, thereby covering all of modern day Inner Mongolia as well as (Outer) Mongolia, while explicitly did NOT include present day Afghanistan. Nikolay Khanikoff's definition is more broad and difficult to precisely assess in terms of the borders of modern countries today. What he did say was to include all the landlocked 'inland' Asia into his definition, which most of Afghanistan and Eastern Iran is indeed part of, but this definition therefore also includes other areas like Mongolia, the Tibetan Plateau, the Kashmir and Pamir mountains, Ladakh, etc. which you omitted, so I have added them now. PLEASE DO NOT TRY TO REINTERPRET THE HISTORICAL LITERATURE TO SUIT YOUR OWN VIEWS. Read my citations carefully on the page.


== Middle Asia the part of Central Asia ==
== Middle Asia the part of Central Asia ==
Line 73: Line 75:


"I wouldn't see why it couldn't be included in both areas." By various definitions, it is located in the borders between the two regions. [[User:Dimadick|Dimadick]] ([[User talk:Dimadick|talk]]) 06:21, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
"I wouldn't see why it couldn't be included in both areas." By various definitions, it is located in the borders between the two regions. [[User:Dimadick|Dimadick]] ([[User talk:Dimadick|talk]]) 06:21, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

Afghanistan historically share ties with its neighboring Uzbekistan and Tajikistan neighbors, but they are culturally, religiously and economically far removed from them, being closer tied to Iran and Pakistan in that sense, which are usually defined as in the Middle East and South Asia, respectively. Granted, Afghanistan, like Mongolia, is considered to be part of Central Asia historically and geographically, its case is marginal at best, as the Turkic Steppe countries of Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan share much more in common with Mongolia than with Afghanistan. So Mongolia should actually be considered a full part of Central Asia before Afghanistan does, but both countries are currently not included in the official definition because they both lack full recognition as such. comment added by [[User:Jirgen666|Jirgen666]] ([[User talk:Jirgen666#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Jirgen666|contribs]]) 19:56, 1 April 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

Nobody added Afghanistan to its core definition so what are you talking about exactly? Afghanistan considers itself as a Central Asian nation and Mongolia is not considering itself Central Asian. What you are doing {{ping|Jirgen666}}: Is just keeping deleting Afghanistan from everything you see and just ignoring the academic sources already given there. Which were there for many years and not recently placed. You were right about Humboldt's definition though and the travel website. Anyways, why do you think that one of the maps in the "definition" section should be removed? Wikipedia is not a place of "I am right and I know it and I want it" [[WP:NPOV]] is forbidden.
The most common country that is added to the Central Asian list besides the core post-soviet states is
: Afghanistan [https://geohistory.today/central-asia/ https://geohistory.today/central-asia/ go to More Common Additions to the Central Asian Map]
Why because Afghanistan shares it's cultural and ethnical links with the Central asian countries (Except with Kazachstan not much) and geographically Afghanistan is more suitable for inclusion.
*[http://silkroadstudies.org/resources/1811CA-Regional.pdf Modernization and Regional Cooperation in Central Asia: A New Spring: page 14] Afghanistan is considering itself as a Central Asian country
*[https://thehill.com/opinion/international/483511-a-new-strategy-for-central-asia as Afghan President Ashraf Ghani has noted, Afghanistan is itself a Central Asian country]
* Here is country definitions per Oxford and Cambridge country word definitions too: [https://www.lexico.com/definition/afghanistan Lexico powered by Oxford University: Afghanistan]
Thats why it is the most common addition[[User:Casperti|Casperti]] ([[User talk:Casperti|talk]]) 22:19, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Afghanistan doesn't share much with any Central Asian state except with Tajikistan due to the crossover of the Tajik Ethnicity. It is certainly very different from Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan based on language, culture, history, mentality, and development levels. Central Asia is based most importantly on the heritage of the Eurasian nomads, the soviet legacy, and secularism as compared to the Islamic and persian traditions of Afghanistan. I myself have roots in Kazakhstan. In terms of Economics, Central Asia is tied more to Russia than anything else, and Afghanistan, to Pakistan and Iran. -Jirgen666 <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Jirgen666|Jirgen666]] ([[User talk:Jirgen666#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Jirgen666|contribs]]) 22:28, 1 April 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:This is more a personal opinion then facts, I do not want to add Afghanistan as a core nation because the core nations are the post-soviet states. I am just protecting what already was there including the map in the definition section. So how do you want to solve this? By edit warring is just wrong[[User:Casperti|Casperti]] ([[User talk:Casperti|talk]]) 22:48, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

:The previous information written on the page contradict scholarly sources as cited, and are hence removed. See the report page for any other concerns. -Jirgen666


==History section: History vs historiography==
==History section: History vs historiography==
The history section begins with the [[historiography]] of Central Asia (how the view of Central Asia's history has changed over the years). This is against common practice of such sections. This section shall begin with a description of the history of Central Asia as neutrally as possible. The historiography could be described at the end of the section, and be elaborated in the [[history of Central Asia]] article. /[[User:Yvwv|Yvwv]] ([[User talk:Yvwv|talk]]) 18:35, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
The history section begins with the [[historiography]] of Central Asia (how the view of Central Asia's history has changed over the years). This is against common practice of such sections. This section shall begin with a description of the history of Central Asia as neutrally as possible. The historiography could be described at the end of the section, and be elaborated in the [[history of Central Asia]] article. /[[User:Yvwv|Yvwv]] ([[User talk:Yvwv|talk]]) 18:35, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

== Request for someone to look over these edits and post them on the Definition of Central Asia Page ==

Dear All, I hope someone can look over these edits based on the reputed Central Asian scholars of Alexander von Humboldt, Nikolay Khanikoff and Richthofen , instead of the current non-academic sources, and post them on my behalf as I am currently involved in a dispute and one of the administrators sided with the other side. I don't actually care about credit, just if someone can post the correctly cited information, that would be great, thank you in advance!

Here is the copy-pasted text for the Definitions part of the article:

[[File:Central Asia borders4.png|thumb|250px|Three sets of possible boundaries for the region]]
+
[[File:Zentralasien politische Karte 2010.svg|thumb||250px|Political Map of Post-Soviet Central Asia, 2010]]
+
Historically, the concept of Central Asia was essentially synomymous with [[Inner Asia]]: the lands in between the settled civilizations of China, Persia, Russia, and India and thus at the crossroad of cultures, sharing an overarching culture in the roots of the [[Eurasian Nomads|Nomads]] on the [[Eurasian Steppe]], in contrast to the settled civilizations of China or Persia <ref>[https://books.google.com/books?id=ST6TRNuWmHsC&pg=PA3 The Cambridge history of early Inner Asia, Volume 1 By Denis Sinor.] Retrieved: 22 August 2009.</ref> <ref>[https://books.google.be/books?id=6lPzhfNRZ9IC&pg=PA477&lpg=PA477&dq=humboldt+central+asia&source=bl&ots=T-bRJW6DfF&sig=ACfU3U3c7gsIvMwUftX9JRo_HvuZ174Yeg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi077uQpMboAhVJ-aQKHR7RC1gQ6AEwB3oECA4QKQ#v=onepage&q=humboldt%20central%20asia&f=false A Note on the meaning of the term 'Central Asia as used in this book By L.I. Miroshnikov, in, History of Civilizations of Central Asia: The Dawn of Civilization p.477-478 Retrieved: 1 April, 2020 </ref> While Inner Asia focuses on its contrast with China, and includes the regions of [[Mongolia]], [[Tibet]], and [[Xinjiang]] as part of its core regions, "Central Asia" as a broader conceptualization was introduced in 1843 by the geographer [[Alexander von Humboldt]], who proposed to include in Central Asia "a broad area 5 degrees above and below the latitude of the 44.5 degree parallel, explicitly defined it to be extending from the [[Greater Khingan]] Mountains of Inner Mongolia to the [[Ustyurt Plateau]] of Kazakhstan, and thus covers the Eurasian plateau from Western Kazakhstan to Eastern Inner Mongolia, while not covering any other geographical references and certainly no reference to any modern countries, as well as definitively leaving out Afghanistan and Iran, which are much south of this geographical reference.<ref>[https://books.google.be/books?id=6lPzhfNRZ9IC&pg=PA477&lpg=PA477&dq=humboldt+central+asia&source=bl&ots=T-bRJW6DfF&sig=ACfU3U3c7gsIvMwUftX9JRo_HvuZ174Yeg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi077uQpMboAhVJ-aQKHR7RC1gQ6AEwB3oECA4QKQ#v=onepage&q=humboldt%20central%20asia&f=false A Note on the meaning of the term 'Central Asia as used in this book By L.I. Miroshnikov, in, History of Civilizations of Central Asia: The Dawn of Civilization p.477-478 Retrieved: 1 April, 2020 </ref>. However, the later {{ill|Nikolay Khanikoff |ru|Ханыков, Николай Владимирович}} also included more of the Central Asian Inland into this definition, to all "Inland Regions" of Asia which are hydraulically landlocked and does not have water flowing into the Oceans. This definition thus included the areas of present day [[Mongolia]] and [[Inner Mongolia]], the Tibetan Plateau of [[Qinghai]], and [[Tibet Autonomous Region]], [[Xinjiang]], the five post-Soviet Stans, Kashmir and the Pamirs, as well as Eastern parts of [[Iran]] and [[Afghanistan]]<ref>[https://books.google.be/books?id=6lPzhfNRZ9IC&pg=PA477&lpg=PA477&dq=humboldt+central+asia&source=bl&ots=T-bRJW6DfF&sig=ACfU3U3c7gsIvMwUftX9JRo_HvuZ174Yeg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi077uQpMboAhVJ-aQKHR7RC1gQ6AEwB3oECA4QKQ#v=onepage&q=humboldt%20central%20asia&f=false A Note on the meaning of the term 'Central Asia as used in this book By L.I. Miroshnikov, in, History of Civilizations of Central Asia: The Dawn of Civilization p.477-478 Retrieved: 1 April, 2020 </ref>. Meanwhile, Richthofen prefers to call the Eastern parts of this region as Central Asia, and the whole as Inner Asia. Nevertheless, these definitive origins were since overshadowed by the Russian definition, who colonized the dominant part of the region since the 19th Century and its definitions shaped the modern English understanding. The Russian definition has two distinct terms: Средняя Азия (Srednyaya Aziya or "Middle Asia", the narrower definition, which includes only those traditionally non-Slavic, Central Asian lands that were incorporated within those borders of the [[Russian Empire]] since the nineteenth century) and Центральная Азия (Tsentralnaya Aziya or "Central Asia", the wider definition, which includes Central Asian lands that have never been part of historical Russia).

Revision as of 01:02, 2 April 2020

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Stop the edit war misinterpreting scholarly sources in order to omit Mongolia's key inclusion in Central Asia while simultaneously overstating Afghanistan's inclusion

To the editor Casparti: Stop deleting my work which are cited with scholarly sources. As a layman, you are consciously misinterpreting the author Humboldt and others on the definition of Central Asia. Humboldt explicitly explicitly included Mongolia, since he explicitly stated that the Eastern end of Central Asia stops at the Greater Khingan mountains of Eastern Inner Mongolia, thereby covering all of modern day Inner Mongolia as well as (Outer) Mongolia, while explicitly did NOT include present day Afghanistan. Nikolay Khanikoff's definition is more broad and difficult to precisely assess in terms of the borders of modern countries today. What he did say was to include all the landlocked 'inland' Asia into his definition, which most of Afghanistan and Eastern Iran is indeed part of, but this definition therefore also includes other areas like Mongolia, the Tibetan Plateau, the Kashmir and Pamir mountains, Ladakh, etc. which you omitted, so I have added them now. PLEASE DO NOT TRY TO REINTERPRET THE HISTORICAL LITERATURE TO SUIT YOUR OWN VIEWS. Read my citations carefully on the page.

Middle Asia the part of Central Asia

UNESCO definitions - Middle Asia (Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Kyrgyzstan) the part of Central Asia. But in the Central Asia are not only these 5 countries. In Central Asia include also - Southern Siberia, Mongolia, Tuva, Xinjiang, Afghanistan. The regional center of Central Asia (UNESCO definitions) is a Tuva.

We use common definition which defines Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan as Central Asian countries. Read the lead and definitions sections. --Wario-Man (talk) 08:18, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Don't add Afghanistan and other similar countries to infobox without consensus

The common definition of Central Asia is clear: Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan. Other countries like Afghanistan are not always considered as Central Asian countries. Plus by adding Afghanistan, then you should add India, Iran, Mongolia, Pakistan, and Russia too. --Wario-Man (talk) 19:26, 17 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Afghanistan should def be added because its actually part of the CARC and has close economical ties with Turkemnistan and Tajikistan. I don't see how those other countries are part of Central Asia.Akmal94 (talk) 22:12, 16 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Afghanistan is usually included in Central Asia rather than South Asia, although I wouldn't see why it couldn't be included in both areas. Plumber (talk) 19:57, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed with the above; Afghanistan is part of Central Asia. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 05:52, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"I wouldn't see why it couldn't be included in both areas." By various definitions, it is located in the borders between the two regions. Dimadick (talk) 06:21, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Afghanistan historically share ties with its neighboring Uzbekistan and Tajikistan neighbors, but they are culturally, religiously and economically far removed from them, being closer tied to Iran and Pakistan in that sense, which are usually defined as in the Middle East and South Asia, respectively. Granted, Afghanistan, like Mongolia, is considered to be part of Central Asia historically and geographically, its case is marginal at best, as the Turkic Steppe countries of Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan share much more in common with Mongolia than with Afghanistan. So Mongolia should actually be considered a full part of Central Asia before Afghanistan does, but both countries are currently not included in the official definition because they both lack full recognition as such. comment added by Jirgen666 (talk • contribs) 19:56, 1 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody added Afghanistan to its core definition so what are you talking about exactly? Afghanistan considers itself as a Central Asian nation and Mongolia is not considering itself Central Asian. What you are doing @Jirgen666:: Is just keeping deleting Afghanistan from everything you see and just ignoring the academic sources already given there. Which were there for many years and not recently placed. You were right about Humboldt's definition though and the travel website. Anyways, why do you think that one of the maps in the "definition" section should be removed? Wikipedia is not a place of "I am right and I know it and I want it" WP:NPOV is forbidden. The most common country that is added to the Central Asian list besides the core post-soviet states is

Afghanistan https://geohistory.today/central-asia/ go to More Common Additions to the Central Asian Map

Why because Afghanistan shares it's cultural and ethnical links with the Central asian countries (Except with Kazachstan not much) and geographically Afghanistan is more suitable for inclusion.

Thats why it is the most common additionCasperti (talk) 22:19, 1 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Afghanistan doesn't share much with any Central Asian state except with Tajikistan due to the crossover of the Tajik Ethnicity. It is certainly very different from Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan based on language, culture, history, mentality, and development levels. Central Asia is based most importantly on the heritage of the Eurasian nomads, the soviet legacy, and secularism as compared to the Islamic and persian traditions of Afghanistan. I myself have roots in Kazakhstan. In terms of Economics, Central Asia is tied more to Russia than anything else, and Afghanistan, to Pakistan and Iran. -Jirgen666 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jirgen666 (talk • contribs) 22:28, 1 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This is more a personal opinion then facts, I do not want to add Afghanistan as a core nation because the core nations are the post-soviet states. I am just protecting what already was there including the map in the definition section. So how do you want to solve this? By edit warring is just wrongCasperti (talk) 22:48, 1 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The previous information written on the page contradict scholarly sources as cited, and are hence removed. See the report page for any other concerns. -Jirgen666

History section: History vs historiography

The history section begins with the historiography of Central Asia (how the view of Central Asia's history has changed over the years). This is against common practice of such sections. This section shall begin with a description of the history of Central Asia as neutrally as possible. The historiography could be described at the end of the section, and be elaborated in the history of Central Asia article. /Yvwv (talk) 18:35, 8 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Request for someone to look over these edits and post them on the Definition of Central Asia Page

Dear All, I hope someone can look over these edits based on the reputed Central Asian scholars of Alexander von Humboldt, Nikolay Khanikoff and Richthofen , instead of the current non-academic sources, and post them on my behalf as I am currently involved in a dispute and one of the administrators sided with the other side. I don't actually care about credit, just if someone can post the correctly cited information, that would be great, thank you in advance!

Here is the copy-pasted text for the Definitions part of the article:

Three sets of possible boundaries for the region

+

Political Map of Post-Soviet Central Asia, 2010

+ Historically, the concept of Central Asia was essentially synomymous with Inner Asia: the lands in between the settled civilizations of China, Persia, Russia, and India and thus at the crossroad of cultures, sharing an overarching culture in the roots of the Nomads on the Eurasian Steppe, in contrast to the settled civilizations of China or Persia [1] [2] While Inner Asia focuses on its contrast with China, and includes the regions of Mongolia, Tibet, and Xinjiang as part of its core regions, "Central Asia" as a broader conceptualization was introduced in 1843 by the geographer Alexander von Humboldt, who proposed to include in Central Asia "a broad area 5 degrees above and below the latitude of the 44.5 degree parallel, explicitly defined it to be extending from the Greater Khingan Mountains of Inner Mongolia to the Ustyurt Plateau of Kazakhstan, and thus covers the Eurasian plateau from Western Kazakhstan to Eastern Inner Mongolia, while not covering any other geographical references and certainly no reference to any modern countries, as well as definitively leaving out Afghanistan and Iran, which are much south of this geographical reference.[3]. However, the later Nikolay Khanikoff  [ru] also included more of the Central Asian Inland into this definition, to all "Inland Regions" of Asia which are hydraulically landlocked and does not have water flowing into the Oceans. This definition thus included the areas of present day Mongolia and Inner Mongolia, the Tibetan Plateau of Qinghai, and Tibet Autonomous Region, Xinjiang, the five post-Soviet Stans, Kashmir and the Pamirs, as well as Eastern parts of Iran and Afghanistan[4]. Meanwhile, Richthofen prefers to call the Eastern parts of this region as Central Asia, and the whole as Inner Asia. Nevertheless, these definitive origins were since overshadowed by the Russian definition, who colonized the dominant part of the region since the 19th Century and its definitions shaped the modern English understanding. The Russian definition has two distinct terms: Средняя Азия (Srednyaya Aziya or "Middle Asia", the narrower definition, which includes only those traditionally non-Slavic, Central Asian lands that were incorporated within those borders of the Russian Empire since the nineteenth century) and Центральная Азия (Tsentralnaya Aziya or "Central Asia", the wider definition, which includes Central Asian lands that have never been part of historical Russia).

  1. ^ The Cambridge history of early Inner Asia, Volume 1 By Denis Sinor. Retrieved: 22 August 2009.
  2. ^ [https://books.google.be/books?id=6lPzhfNRZ9IC&pg=PA477&lpg=PA477&dq=humboldt+central+asia&source=bl&ots=T-bRJW6DfF&sig=ACfU3U3c7gsIvMwUftX9JRo_HvuZ174Yeg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi077uQpMboAhVJ-aQKHR7RC1gQ6AEwB3oECA4QKQ#v=onepage&q=humboldt%20central%20asia&f=false A Note on the meaning of the term 'Central Asia as used in this book By L.I. Miroshnikov, in, History of Civilizations of Central Asia: The Dawn of Civilization p.477-478 Retrieved: 1 April, 2020
  3. ^ [https://books.google.be/books?id=6lPzhfNRZ9IC&pg=PA477&lpg=PA477&dq=humboldt+central+asia&source=bl&ots=T-bRJW6DfF&sig=ACfU3U3c7gsIvMwUftX9JRo_HvuZ174Yeg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi077uQpMboAhVJ-aQKHR7RC1gQ6AEwB3oECA4QKQ#v=onepage&q=humboldt%20central%20asia&f=false A Note on the meaning of the term 'Central Asia as used in this book By L.I. Miroshnikov, in, History of Civilizations of Central Asia: The Dawn of Civilization p.477-478 Retrieved: 1 April, 2020
  4. ^ [https://books.google.be/books?id=6lPzhfNRZ9IC&pg=PA477&lpg=PA477&dq=humboldt+central+asia&source=bl&ots=T-bRJW6DfF&sig=ACfU3U3c7gsIvMwUftX9JRo_HvuZ174Yeg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi077uQpMboAhVJ-aQKHR7RC1gQ6AEwB3oECA4QKQ#v=onepage&q=humboldt%20central%20asia&f=false A Note on the meaning of the term 'Central Asia as used in this book By L.I. Miroshnikov, in, History of Civilizations of Central Asia: The Dawn of Civilization p.477-478 Retrieved: 1 April, 2020
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ACentral_Asia&type=revision&diff=948613719&oldid=855997036

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