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There doesn't seem to be a section discussing media coverage. Has it been fair or biased? This source claims it was, at least initially, biased: "Centering protest coverage around the impact on traffic, local businesses, and property is one way that the protest-as-nuisance framing manifests. And according to the study, that “annoyance” framing increased over time — newspapers were more likely to frame a protest as a nuisance in 2007 than in 1967. The study also found that protests over liberal causes were framed as nuisances more often than protests over conservative causes.... You also see this bias in headlines from The Washington Post’s “A night of fire and fury across America as protests intensify” to The New York Times’ “Appeals for calm as sprawling protests threaten to spiral out of control.” These headlines focus exclusively on the violence of the protests. They don’t tell us where the violence is coming from. So when Slate published a story with the headline “Police erupt in violence nationwide,” it was almost startling in its forthrightness. The story resonated, being shared widely on social media in and in private text groups, because it was the first national report that made plain what people were seeing in videos. “People kept sharing these videos that were coming up and it was unambiguous what was going on,” said Tom Scocca, Slate’s politics editor, who edited the story. “We weren’t looking at a stream of videos of violence erupting or clashes breaking out. We were looking at cops, attacking people.”" https://www.niemanlab.org/2020/06/its-time-to-change-the-way-the-media-reports-on-protests-here-are-some-ideas/ Here is another: "Top 16 Euphemisms US Headline Writers Used for Police Beating the Shit Out of People" https://fair.org/home/top-16-euphemisms-us-headline-writers-used-for-police-beating-the-shit-out-of-people/ Ghostofnemo (talk) 12:06, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I would prefer better sources.Slatersteven (talk) 12:16, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think we can include both. The FAIR article, from Fairness & Accuracy in Reporting, "the national progressive media watchdog group, challenging corporate media bias, spin and misinformation", shouldn't however be front and center of a section on media bias, and should be added along analyses by "media watchdog groups" with different political perspectives. Fa suisse (talk) 08:48, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A section discussing media coverage would be a worthwhile addition to the article. Fa suisse (talk) 08:41, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• It seems worth having a section for. Some possible sources: ^{[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9]} --Aquillion (talk) 20:16, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The only unbiased RS's provided only talk about substantial coverage and not necessarily improper coverage. We should be very careful with claiming RS are actually unreliable, and I don't see enough accepted RSs saying that directly. Anon0098 (talk) 21:33, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The sources above are reliable and provide important information relevant to the topic. I am open to adding the section and get this started when I can, if someone is willing, please do so.•Shawnqual• 📚 • 💭 08:34, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

George Floyd protests → 2020 Black Lives Matter protests – I suggest we change the name of this article to 2020 Black Lives Matter protests. Due to the unfortunate shooting of Jacob Blake and subsequent Kenosha riots, I believe that the title of this article should be changed to a more general title in order to include it, e.g. "2020 Black Lives Matter protests". Jacob Blake has become yet another figurehead of the fight against police brutality in the United States, and the title "George Floyd protests" doesn't do sufficient justice at including the nationwide movement that is now popping up against systemic racism, and the general aim of these protests as a whole. What was previously the George Floyd protests now far exceeds the scope of George Floyd's death. HandIsNotNookls (talk) 20:42, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose RS continuously link protests to Floyd. I haven't seen any significant amount call these "2020 Black Lives Matter Protests" in any capacity Anon0098 (talk) 21:28, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As an additional comment, I would support making the George Floyd protest page a fork from 2020 American Civil Unrest or something close to that effect as some others in this thread have suggested. Still opposed to the main article being called Black Lives Matter protests. Some unrest is not explicitly linked to BLM, such as CHAZ, but all would fall under the category of the broader category of American unrest. Anon0098 (talk) 05:31, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose Not all events in the death of George Floyd are even "Black Lives Matter" protests. That being said, it does seem like some content in the George Floyd protests article and other George Floyd protests in [NAME OF PLACE] articles have some content that is of a slighter broader context. Those articles just need better editing and refinement, not a full on rebrand.VikingB (talk) 21:34, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose The protests are about the death of George Floyd. While Ahmaud Arbery, Breonna Taylor, and other's deaths have played a role in the protests, they were ultimately started by (and continue to mainly be fueled by) Floyd's death. The current name is best. I-82-I | TALK 03:32, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose and move to George Floyd riots the article is more about a destruction of public property and vandalism by protesters, so the correct name of the title is George Floyd riots per 1992 Los Angeles riots, which also named as it thought is was some peaceful protest. Also, this article is about the death of George Floyd, not other Black Americans which have separated articles. 180.245.102.250 (talk) 04:59, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose George Floyd riots A large majority of the protests were peaceful although a significant minority were violent. We name articles using the terms that the preponderance of reliable sources use when discussing the topic. I also oppose the move to 2020 Black Lives Matter protests for the same reason. We go with the sources. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 05:12, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong Oppose George Floyd protests are a part of the BLM movement, which has been taking place for a number of years now and is not something which first originated in 2020. The BLM movement in 2020 is also in no way synonymous with George Floyd protests as multiple other events of the movement have taken place and continue to do so in 2020. •Shawnqual• 📚 • 💭 07:13, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Move to George Floyd riots or George Floyd unrest as it fits definition of riot as it was many destruction of businesses, lawlessness, and many more. I agree with 180.245.102.250 that per 1992 LA riots, this article title should be follow that, even it was a peaceful protests. I not agree to move to 2020 BLM protest because reason above. 182.1.35.124 (talk) 07:55, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose and move to 2020 American protests/unrest/etc. per some of the reasons stated above. I called this a week ago on here, I'm glad to see others are starting to agree en masse that this series of events needs a different name after it has grown far beyond what started it back in May. George Floyd (or any of the others shot and killed) is much too narrow to describe what is happening here, which also includes large counterprotest movements and broad clashes between opposing groups in numerous cities. Temeku (talk) 08:35, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose This article is in regards to the BLM protests directly in response to George Floyd's death. RopeTricks (talk) 08:43, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose to both 2020 Black Lives Matter protests and George Floyd riots titles and as per •Shawnqual• 📚's comment. Panda619 (talk) 10:22, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment The unrest is growing far beyond Floyd's death and I'm probably leaning more towards "2020 Civil Unrest in the US" or something to that effect, but I understand it's incredibly complex and there are several related things going on simultaneously. No harm in waiting for things to play out further and to build consensus for a new title. StuartH (talk) 12:47, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose The period of mass protest and civil unrest in June following Floyd's death is one of the largest mass protests in U.S. history and deserves its own article. It part of the ongoing Black Lives Matter movement. I agree with StuartH that an article specifically about the civil unrest surrounding political and racial tensions is necessary. I think the George Floyd protests should be considered largely concluded, with many of them morphing into the ongoing BLM protests and related civil unrest. Bigeyedbeansfromvenus (talk) 13:19, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose And also oppose any attempt to include the fatalities from the unrest relating to the shooting of Jacob Blake in this article, like I've just reverted here. There has to be a line drawn somewhere that not all protests are George Floyd protests, and it seems clear, to me at least, that protests relating to separate incidents months later are not part of the George Floyd protests. FDW777 (talk) 14:59, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• comment Much as I hate forks there may be a case (given recent events) for an overall article on 2020 Black Lives Matter protests.Slatersteven (talk) 15:02, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  I've been wondering about that too. I'm not sure BLM is correct, and we likely won't know what the correct title is for years. —valereee (talk) 20:40, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  slatersteven and valereee, I think the title you are looking for is 2020 United States racial unrest. Googling "racial unrest" gets a lot of results related to the recent events. So following WP:NCEVENTS#Conventions gets us the title I suggest. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 12:27, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yep I can run with that.Slatersteven (talk) 12:38, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose This page should be sub-sectioned under American Civil Unrest 2020 and rename this article to Gorge Floyd Riots as this encapsulates an on-going larger issue in scope. JoshuaAMarsh 19:19, 26/08/2020. Joshua A Marsh (talk) 09:19, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree with that, although a lot of the protests and riots are not related to George Floyd, a lot of them are not related to BLM itself, for example the so called CHAZ. Azaan Habib 10:21, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • I also agree with that, but the current title should be stay as this, in turn this article, along with Kenosha riot would be fall as sub-article of 2020 United States protest, in turn again would be fall into sub-article of new main article about Protests of 2020 as the new main article will contain information about COVID-19 protest, police brutality and racism protest, Belarus protest, and even Thai protest. all of these articles would be fall into one large article. 110.137.166.230 (talk) 11:00, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: A meta article to provide an overview of the unrest caused by race protests/riots in the United States in 2020 has been started. See 2020 United States racial unrest. •Shawnqual• 📚 • 💭 11:45, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Support - I really do feel like these protests have become bigger than just George Floyd. The unrest has come to encapsulate other officer-involved shootings like Jacob Blake, as well as other incidents like Donald Trump photo op at St. John's Church and political ideologies like the Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone. Love of Corey (talk) 06:14, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The Kenosha protests are completely separate and aren't even mentioned on this page. It's colinked with the George Floyd protests under 2020 United States racial unrest, though. RSs link St John and CHAZ directly to Floyd. Anon0098 (talk) 23:45, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

I agree with the above user that the main page should read 2020 American Civil Unrest and have george floyd protests as an offshoot page Camdoodlebop (talk) 08:11, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Strongly oppose. The article for what OP has termed "the nationwide movement that is now popping up against systemic racism" is 2020 United States racial unrest (not the best title, but that's another discussion for another talk page). The protests have indeed become "bigger than just George Floyd"—hence the importance of an article focused on the initial wave of protest that did focus on Floyd and his being killed. This does seem to represent a consensus, so frankly I think it's time to close this discussion and focus on the broader question of how we structure our coverage on the 2020 race-related civil unrest and political/cultural shift in America, the UK and Europe. With respect, I do not find Love of Corey's arguments convincing. The St John photo opportunity occurred in the context of a George Floyd protest; though not relevant via its connection to Floyd himself, it is relevant via its connection to a George Floyd protest. The protest that Trump cleared was explicitly focused on Floyd and his being killed; it was not race-related without being connected directly with Floyd, as later protests have been. The same goes for CHAZ; it was part of a George Floyd protest and was primarily intended as a protest (hence the alternative name "protest zone" and the focus on the precinct of the police force whose officer killed Floyd). Presenting CHAZ as primarily an experiment in political ideology is undue weight at best and POV-pushing at worst. The George Floyd protests are—or were—a specific thing; they were also the first wave of a wider movement. We appear to have reached a consensus that our article titles should reflect that, and it is time for this discussion to end. —Kilopylae (talk) 10:51, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Consensus does change, but edit requests over and over and over by people making their first edits are unlikely to be taking policy into consideration or be thoughtful. I'd like to discuss whether it's okay to answer and close such edit requests so they don't turn into long rediscussions that end up the same way. (FWIW, I'd be open to some regular reopening of questions that we all agree could have a change in consensus. But 'allege' passing of counterfeit bills is never going to change. And we don't need to rediscuss killing of vs. death of or riot vs. protest every six days.) —valereee (talk) 00:38, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Propose: Anything that's been discussed in the past month, with no clear change to current consensus, can be politely responded to, directed at the most recent discussion, and closed. Revised Proposal per discussion: Following the conclusion of #Requested move 25 August 2020 no further move requests can take place until 1 March 2021. —valereee (talk) 22:23, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support

• Support I think we've wasted more than enough time dealing with people that think the page should be called "George Floyd riots" just because some of the protests turned violent. FDW777 (talk) 22:24, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Support The original proposal didn't really reduce the work of editors or help in any way actually. Pointing people to past discussions is nothing out of ordinary and involves digging up past archives. The new proposal is better as it states a clear goal and has a significant result provided there is enough support for it. •Shawnqual• 📚 • 💭 19:50, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

• Strong Oppose Its not wasted time dealing with people who think the page title should change because the George Floyd protests continue to evolve in its nature and scope. 3 months ago, nobody would have ever expected one act of police violence to set off hundreds of riots and protests across cities in the US and the world. To lock the title for 6 months into the future of an event only 3 months old but still going strong is WP:CRYSTALBALL. Who knows what this event will be like in even the next month? A moratorium of one month at MOST is what would be reasonable in this instance. Albertaont (talk) 20:14, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

@Valereee: I would prefer a six-month+ moratorium on move requests that I've seen on other articles, once the current move request has finished. I think the current proposal is a bit too weak. FDW777 (talk) 07:15, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

FDW777, I'd be happy with that. No one has S/O yet, would you want to tweak the language? —valereee (talk) 20:43, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Something along the lines of Proposal: Following the conclusion of #Requested move 25 August 2020 no further move requests can take place until 1 March 2021. FDW777 (talk) 20:59, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Provided this gets enough support, a list could also be embedded at the top of the talk page to show the previous move proposals and their outcomes so it is clear to new editors/readers where the consensus lies.•Shawnqual• 📚 • 💭 19:50, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the oppose !vote!, a moratorium is needed for the obvious reason that the large amount of peaceful protests that have occurred will not be erased from history at any time over the next six months, so another move request in a month's time of a proposed move to, for example George Floyd riots will not achieve consensus and will be a giant waste of everyone's time. FDW777 (talk) 20:25, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

For the second time, the deaths relating to protests relating to the shooting of Jacob Blake have been added to the infobox. Since the protests relating to the shooting of Jacob Blake are, by definition, not protesting the killing of George Floyd I believe these deaths should not be added. FDW777 (talk) 20:00, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Another reason to have George Floyd protests as a fork from larger page such as 2020 American Civil Unrest Anon0098 (talk) 05:50, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have amended the sentence As of July 25, 2020, at least 29 people have died during the protests, with 25 due to gunshot wounds and the related, unreferenced figure in the infobox, both of which were tagged as needing a citation and/or failing verification.

The references provided were as follows.

• New York Daily News of 3 June, which said At least 13 people, many of them black, have been killed in the past week as Americans flood city streets to protest police brutality. It listed them as
  • David Dorn (St Louis), David McAtee (Louisville), Dave Patrick Underwood (Oakland), Chris Beaty (Indianapolis), Italia Kelly (Davenport), unnamed person (also Davenport) Calvin L. Horton Jr (Minneapolis), James Scurlock (Omaha), Javar Harrell a 21-year-old black man (Detroit), two unnanmed people (Chicago), unnamed man dragged by FexEx truck (St Louis), Dorian Murrell (Indianpolis)
• ABC of 3 June, which said At least 13 people have been killed amid protests in cities across the US in the past week — many of them African Americans. It listed them as
  • David Dorn (St Louis), David McAtee (Louisville), Dave Patrick Underwood (Oakland), Chris Beaty (Indianapolis), unnamed 18-year-old man (also Indianapolis), Italia Kelly (Davenport), unnamed man (also Davenport), Calvin L. Horton Jr (Minneapolis), James Scurlock (Omaha), unnamed 21-year-old man (Detroit), two unnanmed people (Chicago), unnamed man (Las Vegas)
• Associated Press of 3 June, which listed them as
  • David Dorn (St Louis), David McAtee (Louisville), Dave Patrick Underwood (Oakland), Chris Beaty (Indianapolis), unnamed 18-year-old man (also Indianapolis), Italia Kelly (Davenport), unnamed man (also Davenport), Calvin L. Horton Jr (Minneapolis), James Scurlock (Omaha), unnamed 21-year-old man (Detroit), two unnanmed people (Chicago)
• Al Jazeera of 3 June (which is sourced by Associated Press, but including for thoroughness) which said Nearly a dozen deaths tied to continuing unrest in US, which listed them as
  • David Dorn (St Louis), David McAtee (Louisville), Dave Patrick Underwood (Oakland), Chris Beaty (Indianapolis), unnamed 18-year-old man (also Indianapolis), Italia Kelly (Davenport), unnamed man (also Davenport), Calvin L. Horton Jr (Minneapolis), James Scurlock (Omaha), unnamed 21-year-old man (Detroit), two unnanmed people (Chicago)
• Q13 Fox of 29 June, which listed two people killed in just over a week in Seattle's protest zone.

I will list all the people mentioned in the 3 June news reports in alphabetical order.

• Chris Beaty (Indianapolis)
• David Dorn (St Louis)
• Javar Harrell a 21-year-old black man (Detroit) (referred to in various reports as an unnamed 21-year-old man
• Calvin L. Horton Jr (Minneapolis)
• Italia Kelly (Davenport)
• David McAtee (Louisville)
• Dorian Murrell (Indianpolis) (referred to in various reports as an unnamed 18-year-old man)
• James Scurlock (Omaha)
• Dave Patrick Underwood (Oakland)
• Two unnanmed people (Chicago)
• Unnamed person (Davenport)
• Unnamed man dragged by FexEx truck (St Louis)
• Unnamed man (Las Vegas)

That's technically 14, despite all the references using a total of 13 (except for Al Jazeera, who think 13 is "nearly a dozen"). However I think, including the two people from later in the month in Seattle, "over 15 people" would cover it, so I am adding that to the article. The claim of 29, or 32 in the infobox, is unreferenced and should not be restored. FDW777 (talk) 08:04, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Also I'm aware "over 15" is probably too low, and I've no objection to it being amended upwards if references are provided that state people were killed during George Floyd protests (and not Jacob Blake protests). My intent was not to add a figure that's set in stone and can't be changed, just one that's referenced. FDW777 (talk) 08:15, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If you add up all the deaths in the violence section it adds up to about 30. CaptainPrimo (talk) 04:52, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Correct, we need to manually add the deaths in the violence section. That is the basis for the figure. Reverting to previous. Albertaont (talk) 05:54, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This isn't a debate, it's a straightforward WP:BURDEN issue.

All content must be verifiable. The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and it is satisfied by providing an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution. Attribute all quotations, and any material whose verifiability is challenged or likely to be challenged, to a reliable, published source using an inline citation. The cited source must clearly support the material as presented in the article.

Vague mentions of other articles in edit summaries are not inline references, especially when original research is being added to the other article to inflate the death toll. FDW777 (talk) 09:54, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You used 4 sources to provide a consistent death count on June 3 of 13 people, but the article on Violence and controversies during the George Floyd protests lists additional deaths from June 20, 27, 29, July 4, 5, 25, and August 29. What is the rationale for not including those deaths? You keep mentioning WP:BURDEN but it has clearly been satified through reliable sources for deaths after June 3. I see no editors in agreement with your position. We need to bring this to admin, but in the absense of anybody in agreement with your position, the original death count should be restored. Nobody here is asserting the +15 is a reliable or accurate figure. Albertaont (talk) 02:43, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The salient part of WP:BURDEN is Attribute . . . any material whose verifiability is challenged . . . to a reliable, published source using an inline citation. Content of other articles =/= inline citation, and content of other articles =/= reliable, published source. FDW777 (talk) 08:00, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You are free to challenge any of the Violence and controversies during the George Floyd protests additional deaths from June 20, 27, 29, July 4, 5, 25, and August 29. Albertaont (talk) 17:42, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Protests or events directly related to George Floyd's killing haven't been carried out since early-June according to the timeline by The New York Times. A quick google search also shows timelines ending in June-July from various sources. So, safe to assume that the status of protests is no longer ongoing or too early. Any protests hence have been under BLM or for Jacob Blake as of recently. This means that the status must be changed in the infobox, but which date should be used as the ending date? This timeline by NCAC could come in handy perhaps. @FDW777:, thoughts? •Shawnqual• 📚 • 💭 08:29, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's clear to most people looking at things from an unbiased perspective that the protests in Kenosha are not George Floyd protests, but are, not unsurprisingly, people protesting at the shooting of Jacob Blake. I realise that where to draw a line under George Floyd protests might be difficult, but I think it's clear a line needs to be drawn if references say the protests are over. I think something along the lines of "xxx date to yyy date (occasional isolated protests have occurred since) might be a possibility (subject to referencing). FDW777 (talk) 08:37, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Where is this assertion coming from that the george floyd protests are "no longer ongoing or too early?" Even this article from [(CNN)] about the death in Portland yesterday makes clear links to the fact that these are protests spurred by the Killings of George Floyd. Also, I want to understand where you are getting that "it's clear to most people looking at things from an unbiased perspective that the protests in Kenosha are not George Floyd protests". Not saying this is incorect, but why would someone be biased merely for putting Kenosha and George Floyd together?Albertaont (talk) 19:28, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Until other articles are created, this article is clearly referring to all BLM protests which have happened since George Floyd was killed/murdered, except the Kenosha Riot. So why has the death toll suddenly been halved? User:Alexiod Palaiologos 12:46, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

See #Unreferenced claims amended and WP:BURDEN. FDW777 (talk) 13:01, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. User:Alexiod Palaiologos 13:11, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Methology used in #Unreferenced claims amended was originally incorrect, we can count to 30 just from the deaths listed in Violence and controversies during the George Floyd protests and has already been reversed.Albertaont (talk) 06:03, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There was no incorrect methodology used. Once again I refer to WP:BURDEN, you cannot use the content of another article as a reference. FDW777 (talk) 12:01, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What do RS say?Slatersteven (talk) 12:06, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

See #Unreferenced claims amended above. As stated there, I have no objection to the death toll being amended upwards with references. What has been happening can be seen at the first sentence of the section at Violence and controversies during the George Floyd protests#Deaths, where starting from an initial referenced death toll of 13 that is referenced, it has been consistently revised upwards (see for examples edits such as this where no reference is added, just a vague mention of the total at the Violence and controversies during the George Floyd protests page being updated), often without references. It's all well and good people saying count the deaths at Violence and controversies during the George Floyd protests#Deaths, but where's the evidence all those are related to George Floyd protests? Especially since there's people updating the total to include the two people killed during protests relating to the shooting of Jacob Blake, when that's a separate incident and the people shot were protesting the shooting of Jacob Blake, not the killing of George Floyd.

What do RS say? is an excellent question. I'd love to say a death toll that's published by RS, or even evidence every single claimed death in Violence and controversies during the George Floyd protests did indeed happen during a George Floyd protest. FDW777 (talk) 13:41, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If RS do not consider it of note neither should we.Slatersteven (talk) 14:42, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

To be perfectly clear, and for avoidance of doubt, are we saying that we cannot take the sum arithmetic of individual RS when determining casualty count but must rely on a single RS which aggregates the total casualty claim? I am strongly opposed to this, but I want to make sure we describe the issue as such. Albertaont (talk) 16:03, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If each reference says deaths were part of the George Floyd protests, I have no objection to arithmetic. I do however, as does policy, have an objection to anyone suggesting the entries at Violence and controversies during the George Floyd protests are added up, since mere inclusion in that article is not a guarantee the deaths were part of the George Floyd protests. FDW777 (talk) 16:07, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The problem with that approach is then we would have to view every source ever written about the subject, or our total may be wrong.Slatersteven (talk) 16:11, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I know that's not an ideal approach but what's the alternative? Leave it at 13 which can be referenced to the references in early June which do give a death toll to date? Leave it out entirely? I'd absolutely 100% prefer to find a reference with a death toll published yesterday, today, tomorrow, or any time after the last claimed death relating to the George Floyd protests, but if we don't have that we need to include some kind of figure referenced somehow, since I doubt saying "13" is acceptable to anyone. FDW777 (talk) 16:17, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Out of the info box, yes leave it out. This is not information we desperately need now.Slatersteven (talk) 16:20, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's not addressing the problem though, since there is still a (contradictory) total at George Floyd protests#Violence and controversies and Violence and controversies during the George Floyd protests#Deaths. Leaving it out of the infobox doesn't make the problem go away. Unless you want to opt for some kind of vague wording rather than a total? FDW777 (talk) 16:26, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Not really as they both say "at least" and are from different dates. But as we do not know we should not say. It might be best to say "and there have been a number of killings" and leave it at that.Slatersteven (talk) 16:29, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As long as a proposed solution contains a verifiable total (if a total is included) and is applied consistently to this article and Violence and controversies during the George Floyd protests I should have no objections. FDW777 (talk) 16:42, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I am saying do not include a total as it cannot be verified. Rather we keep it vague and imprecise until we know.Slatersteven (talk) 16:46, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Because they dont want it to look as bad and given that another person has been shot dead in portland please change it to 31 and there is literally 19 dead by june the 8th alone https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2020/06/08/14-days-of-protests-19-dead/#58333cf84de4 thats two weeks in

So you provide a "reference" that says 19 dead and insist it's changed to 31? The answer to that would be "no", especially since the Forbes article is by a Forbes Contributor not Forbes Staff, see Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources#Forbes for details. FDW777 (talk) 07:08, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Also regarding Portland. "Police have not given an identity or specified whether the shooting was directly linked to the clashes which broke out in a downtown area". FDW777 (talk) 10:19, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yesterday 32 dead, today, 15 dead. 17 people just resurrected I guess. Nonsense. Manipulating the most important details of these events because of political reasons is pretty much making Wikipedia an unreliable source. Change it back to 32 + add the 1 that happened yesterday. - SteveLiberty — Preceding unsigned comment added by SteveLiberty (talk • contribs) 14:05, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Then you should have no problem providing reliable references that confirm your claim that 33 people have died, especially since "Police have not given an identity or specified whether the shooting was directly linked to the clashes which broke out in a downtown area" relating to yesterday's death. It's somewhat hypocritical to say Wikipedia is an unreliable source then insist unreferenced information is added to the article, given that is a frequent criticism as to why Wikipedia is seen as unreliable. FDW777 (talk) 14:19, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This page had reliable sources to the 32, yesterday. Today 17 of those magically disappeared. If those 17 was "not reliable", then why were those on this page, to begin with? Sure, the people who protesting with BLM signs have killed a person, so it has nothing to do with BLM and George Floyd. Ok. I would rather say that the moderators of the page are trying to change criteria just to lower the death toll. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SteveLiberty (talk • contribs) 17:34, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's quite simply untrue. The references that were in the article were discussed at #Unreferenced claims amended above. They were mostly from the start of June and said there had been 13 deaths, except for one from the end of June that said there had been 2 deaths in Seattle. You can see the diff there where I changed the total, the only references removed were the redundant AP and Al Jazeera ones both dated 3 June. FDW777 (talk) 17:44, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As per above, you have provided rationale on why you believe a consistent death count on June 3 of 13 people is warranted, but the article on Violence and controversies during the George Floyd protests lists additional deaths from June 20, 27, 29, July 4, 5, 25, and August 29. You make repeated mention of WP:BURDEN but it has clearly been satisfied through reliable sources for deaths after June 3 (otherwise they wouldn't have survived the wiki page. I see no editors in agreement with your position. We need to bring this to admin, but in the absence of any editor in concurrence with your position, the original death count should be restored until otherwise. Albertaont (talk) 02:43, 31 August 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Albertaont (talk • contribs)

You are incorrect. This is not a debate. See also the comments of @Slatersteven:. Per WP:CIRCULAR you cannot use the content of another Wikipedia article as a reference. I do not care how many people assert an unreferenced figure of over 30 should be added to this article, per WP:CONLOCAL their collective voice cannot override the verifiability policy. FDW777 (talk) 07:37, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Please take this to an admin, and explain why violating wp:or and wp:v is not against the rules. I have said I object to any number, be it 32, 17 or 42 (well in this context).Slatersteven (talk) 11:20, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If there are only 13 RS verified deaths why does the infobox say 15+ and not 13+? Someone Not Awful (talk) 17:29, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I will repeat what I said at 08:15, 28 August 2020, I've no objection to it being amended upwards if references are provided that state people were killed during George Floyd protests (and not Jacob Blake protests). My intent was not to add a figure that's set in stone and can't be changed, just one that's referenced. That, nearly three and a half days later, people are still arguing it should be changed to an unreferenced figure is quite telling. FDW777 (talk) 17:35, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Just to add on to this section, with the creation of the 2020 United States racial unrest page I think the criteria for the Floyd protests needs to be reworked. Maybe keep everything that RSs explicitly link to Floyd and move everything else to a BLM page which is forked from 2020 United States racial unrest, or something. Thoughts? Anon0098 (talk) 17:31, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I would agree, if it RS dont link it to George Floyd we should not link it.Slatersteven (talk) 12:06, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]