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The lead is supposed to be an overview of the article. The fourth paragraph of the lead is a description of Sheldrake's popularity in the new age movement. However, the body of the article does not contain any content regarding such. I recommend that the 4th paragraph be deleted as per WP:LEAD. Thoughts? Annalisa Ventola _{(Talk | Contribs)} 00:24, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Good point, Annalisa Ventola. I suggest we either add a section about New Age reception or delete the mention in the lead. I think the lead is too long as is and support deleting the comment. It's a blurb that contributes little to the following sections. The Cap'n (talk) 00:46, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It appears that Sheldrake is commonly thought of as a New Age writer, so the bit in the lead was just meant to clear up a common confusion. Considering that many people will just read the lead, if they are there to learn about that cool New Age writer then perhaps they should be informed that he's not so New Agey. In any case that was the rationale; it doesn't matter much to me. vzaak (talk) 00:59, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

His popularity among new age readers can be covered in the section on his books. Whether we just move the content from the lead down, or copy the content from the lead and expand with more detail would be the question. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 01:12, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm looking at the references and I see one author referring to him as such without explanation, and another author saying that Sheldrake is admired by New Agers but not a New Ager himself. These references are conflicting and don't really provide much to expand on. Unless someone else wants to take a shot at it and provide a section on "Sheldrake the New Ager" to justify mention in the lead, I suggest deletion. However, if there are enough sources to establish Sheldrake as a New Age author - and say something substantial about it - I would certainly be curious to read it. Annalisa Ventola _{(Talk | Contribs)} 01:51, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The first two refs [25][26] describe him as a New Age author. The next two refs [27][28] say that New Agers like him. The penultimate ref [27] clarifies that he's not a New Ager. The conflict is the interesting part. He's called a New Age author, but he's not a New Ager. There's more New Agey stuff to find, such as Alan Sokal referring to "a bizarre New Age idea due to Rupert Sheldrake" [1].

The New Age bit was moved to the Books section once; it can be moved again, no problem. Or it can be expanded in the body, no problem. But I don't see a good reason to remove this clarification of a common misconception. vzaak (talk) 02:32, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The new age stuff isn't in the body of the article. Therefore it shouldn't be in the lead. The references are not the body of the article. The new age stuff needs to be in the article, or it needs to be deleted from the lead. I'm in favor of putting it in the article. I prefer a separate section rather than burying it in with other stuff. Lou Sander (talk) 02:48, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If we're looking for New Age stuff, it's worth looking at "The Physics of Angels" by Matthew Fox and Rupert Sheldrake. One of the Amazon reviews says "this book is a bizarre amalgam of New Age speculation and exploration of the writings of Dionysius the Areopagite, Thomas Aquinas and Hildegard of Bingen" From the small amount I was willing to read it seems like a fair assessment. Dingo1729 (talk) 03:13, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Has anyone here actually read the book? Annalisa Ventola _{(Talk | Contribs)} 03:57, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, this is just my opinion, of course, not a sentence we can put into wikipedia articles or anything, but I'm pretty confident Sheldrake has read the book.^{[citation needed]}      :-)     Here is what he says about his atheism from ~1956 through sometime in college, his experimentation with Hindu/Sufi/etc stuff which he specifically went to India to pursue, his being drawn to Christianity again in the late 1970s, and his recent work on Angels with Fox. One thing we *already* cite using WP:ABOUTSELF is that Sheldrake spent 18 months living in an ashram in Tamil Nadu, and during that time (prolly 1980/1981 maybe also some 1979 but the self-pub-page does not say) wrote his first book. However, the sentence about the ashram is in the wrong place -- it is under Academic Career right now, when in fact it should be in the first paragraph of Origin Of Morphogenetics. This sentence also ties in with the new-age thing; Sheldrake may not be a New Ager in the usual sense, but part of the reason^{[citation needed]} his books are popular in that market is prolly because he wrote the first one while living in an ashram, albeit a Christian-oriented one run by a Benedictine monk, somewheres near India.

"Another [one of my main concerns] is^[when?] exploring the connections between science and spirituality, and I am particularly thankful for the opportunity to do this with [co-author of two 1996 books] Matthew Fox."[2]

"The main reason for taking the job in Hyderabad was that I wanted to be in India. I had already become interested in Indian philosophy and had started doing transcendental meditation. I was drawn to the Hindu traditions. ...an English Benedictine monk who lived in a small ashram right in the very south of India. It was a Christian ashram, bridging the Christian and Eastern traditions. ...During my time in India [1974 and later] I’d been involved with various Hindu gurus and ashrams, and also with Sufis... I could never really become a Sufi because you have to become a Muslim... I couldn’t become a Hindu because I couldn’t be an Indian... I began to find new meaning in the Christian tradition that I’d rejected [as an atheist since age ~14 circa 1956] for so long."[3]

Currently the article is *very* sparse on this stuff. It lists the books with Fox, says he does not^[when?] consider himself a new-ager, and that he is currently anglican.

Sheldrake has been described as a New Age author[98][99] and is popular among many in the New Age movement who view him as lending scientific credibility to their beliefs.[100][84] Sheldrake has not endorsed this description nor these views.[100]

He has a Methodist background, identified himself as an atheist for a time and found himself drawn back to Christianity during his time in India; the biography on his website now identifies him as Anglican.[27]

We can definitely use WP:ABOUTSELF for the quoted explanation Sheldrick gives on his homepage, talking about himself and his motivations, and put this quotation into the article -- prolly we ought to methinks. What we have right not is full of vague weasel words, that do not give the chronology, nor the motivations Sheldrick had. Those are not things we can cut from the article, without misrepresenting Sheldrake's spirituality... definitely not a good thing to do, to a BLP, or to anyone for that matter. HTH. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 00:56, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This article already establishes Sheldrake as an Anglican. If you're going to establish him instead as New Ager - there really ought to be a clear basis for doing so - keeping in mind that this a WP:BLP, of course. Annalisa Ventola _{(Talk | Contribs)} 04:02, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The lead formerly said something like: "People call him new age. He disagrees. After some evolution of his religious beliefs, he's an Anglican." I liked that, because it seemed to summarize important stuff about him and his ideas. I didn't check if it was in the body of the article (where it needs to be if it's in the summary/lead). Lou Sander (talk) 04:37, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Is it common for BLP's to pigeon-hole someone into a particular belief system in the lead? Annalisa Ventola _{(Talk | Contribs)} 04:42, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know. I don't see pigeon-holing here, since he is apparently open about his beliefs. It's like somebody saying "Moe sounds a lot like a Wiccan," and Moe saying "No, I'm a Methodist." Lou Sander (talk) 04:56, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

One doesnt have to be a New Ager to be popular amongst New Ager reading public. Just because one is a New Ager doesnt mean that one is not also Methodist (or Anglican or whatever). But what exactly is the point under discussion for inclusion or removal from the article? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 10:40, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Annalisa Ventola, the point of the New Age sentence is not to establish him as a New Age author. The point is to clear up the fact that although he's called a New Age author, he's not a New Ager. The original wording said "not a New Ager but a committed Anglican", which I thought was better. vzaak (talk) 12:24, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• The purpose of this sentence is to dispel the common misunderstanding that Sheldrake is a New Ager. He is not a New Ager, despite what the New Age movement thinks. This is important to mention somewhere in the article, whether in the lead or not I don't care. In addition, I would rather restore the original wording to make it absolutely clear: "...not a New Ager but a committed Anglican".

• The refs are very clear on this issue. This information is not the least bit controversial or contentious; everyone can agree that clarifying that Sheldrake is not a New Ager is a good thing.

• You can easily find the BBC episode in [28] by googling 'Sheldrake heretic'. The youtube video you will find is likely a copyright violation, which is why no link is given.

vzaak (talk) 14:34, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's good that most editors are keen to clarify this, and seem to feel the same way, but we still need to get the sourcing right. What we have is not "very clear", and if you think 28 is OK then you need to re-read the policies on reliable sourcing. The idea of giving an obscure reference because the source used might not be legitimate is as ridiculous as the suggestion that we've given enough of a hint for the reader to find the video on Google if they use the search term that you'd use. Maybe we should include that search engine hint in the ref, and point out that we're not sure we should be quoting this and that's why we're not giving away too many details -? I did actually want to check that information before I commented, but even with a desire to track it down, I don't expect to waste my time trawling through an entire video to find the comment that is supposed to support our content. If we are going to draw reference from broadcast programmes then we need full publication and transmission details, and we need to reference the time-frame of the footage referred to (just like we need to reference the source of quotes by pages in books and not just book titles). There needs to be a rethink of the approach taken towards sourcing on this page, because the silly insistence that some obviously adequate references cannot be allowed is looking very hypocritical set against the argument that other, obviously crappy references, are perfectly fine. Tento2 (talk) 15:34, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's the first google hit. New Age is at 19:35 - 20:00. Linking to a copyrighted video would prevent Good Article status per wp:good article criteria. The ref isn't even needed. I see nothing wrong with it myself, but if you don't like it then take it out, no problem. (Obviously it must remain for the paragraph which discusses the broadcast.) That he has New Age followers is not a contentious or controversial matter. In any case, none of this bears on the other references in the article. vzaak (talk) 16:44, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sheldrake gives a link to this video from his own site where he lists his books and recording (http://www.sheldrake.org/B&R/videostream/) so I would presume the one he links to is legitimately obtained and that we should link to the same source at http://www.nautis.com/2012/03/heretics-of-science-rupert-sheldrake/ rather than the dubious Youtube video. I'll put the details here for reference since no one can edit the page at the moment:

Heretics of Science, episode 3, 'Rupert Sheldrake – Morphogenetic Fields', broadcast 19 July 1994. Runtime 30 mins. Publisher: BBC. Producer: Tony Edwards.

We don't need to give a link to the video if we provide the full publication details, although it is useful for the reader that we do. To be completely covered it would be best to keep this reference separate from the other reference to the same video and quote the remarks given around 19th-20th minute inside the footnote: "In America, Sheldrake found himself attracting disciples from the New Age movement. Morphic resonance appealed to their mystical philosophy of life, which they saw Sheldrake, a scientist, appearing to endorse." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tento2 (talk • contribs) 08:13, 18 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Please indicate your preference with "Support", "Oppose", "Can live with"

Option 1- Remove from the article the 4th paragraph in the lead (about his following among New Agers)

• oppose fully sourced, reflecting an important aspect of Sheldrakes real world impact. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 10:53, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• oppose - that is, I oppose a suggestion to remove the comment entirely, though I definitely agree it should be removed from the lede until it is developed in the main body of the article. Tento2 (talk) 11:54, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• oppose per Tento2, above. Lou Sander (talk) 12:54, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• support - though I would be fine with the material returning if it becomes a substantial part of the article at a later date (I find it curious that the opposers above are saying the same thing). Annalisa Ventola _{(Talk | Contribs)} 13:49, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• support - How New Agers view him is irrelevant. Pretty much anyone talking about human potential is seen as a New Ager to new Agers. Tom Butler (talk) 17:02, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• oppose --Roxy the dog (quack quack) 20:34, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• support -- Gunther[4] is an appalling source, he is a self-published author, making his opinion irrelevant here, and the source fails WP:RS. Frazier's reference[5] should actually be attributed to Ron Amundson's article "The Hundredth Monkey Phenomenon" which actually comes from the Skeptical Inquirer vol. 9, 1985, 348-356[6] who mentions Sheldrake in passing, with no sources. There is no indication that Amundson represents the New Age, or that we even no what he means. The use of the passive voice (ie "has been described") suggests the sentence is used as a form of "weasel word" phrase. --Iantresman (talk) 22:21, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• oppose It's supported and it's important. MilesMoney (talk) 04:35, 18 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• oppose per TRPoD. Capitalismojo (talk) 15:18, 18 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• support I don't see how his standing among New Agers is a relevant enough topic or has enough content behind it to justify mentioning in the lead. The segment feels ad-hoc and out of place. The Cap'n (talk) 18:54, 18 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Option 2- Move the 4th paragraph in the lead (about his following among New Agers) to the body of the article as part of the intro under Rupert_Sheldrake#Books

• can live with -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 10:53, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• oppose - as it stands, its not appropriately sourced. Ref 28 is inadequate and gives no way for the user to verify that what we have stated is correct; and the short comment "although Sheldrake has not endorsed these interpretations" fails to summarise the points the author is making in ref 27, so that needs more attention and development. Tento2 (talk) 11:54, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• oppose, in general agreement with Tento2. There are many problems with the references in this article, e.g., finding references that only tangentially apply, then using them as hammers to hit Sheldrake with. An example of that is in the one in Rupert_Sheldrake#Books, which slams him on peer review. Peer review doesn't apply to books, as is said in the reference itself. Lou Sander (talk) 13:12, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• 'oppose as per the comments on inadequate sourcing above. Annalisa Ventola _{(Talk | Contribs)} 13:49, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose, Again, how new Agers view him is irrelevant. Pretty much anyone talking about human potential is seen as a New Ager to new Agers. Tom Butler (talk) 17:07, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• can live with --Roxy the dog (quack quack) 20:34, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• can live with It really belongs in the lede, but if we need to move it out to keep the lede small, that's acceptable. MilesMoney (talk) 04:35, 18 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• supportThis is where the discussion of New Age reception belongs; it's information pertaining to his books, not a section in itself. The Cap'n (talk) 18:54, 18 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Option 3- Copy the 4th paragraph in the lead (about his following among New Agers) to the body of the article as part of the intro under Rupert_Sheldrake#Books and look for more sources to more fully expand this aspect of Sheldrakes impact

• support-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 10:53, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• support- refs need looking at. I have no idea what ref 28 substantiates because it's impossible to check from the reference information given. I can see that there is more to the issue than a reader would gleam from our content, when checking what the author of ref 27 has to say about the matter. Tento2 (talk) 11:54, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• oppose, in general agreement with Tento2. Many Refs here are problematic. The material in Paragraph 4 summarizes important stuff about Sheldrake. That stuff needs to appear somewhere in the article, in expanded and properly-referenced form. Just finding more sources won't suffice, particularly if they are tangential, don't apply, etc. Lou Sander (talk) 13:12, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• oppose - again, if someone can expand this with better sourcing, then it may be relevant to the article, but not as it stands. Annalisa Ventola _{(Talk | Contribs)} 13:49, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose, Again, how new Agers view him is irrelevant. Pretty much anyone talking about human potential is seen as a New Ager to new Agers. Tom Butler (talk) 17:07, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• support --Roxy the dog (quack quack) 20:34, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• can live with Prefer the lede. MilesMoney (talk) 04:35, 18 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• OpposeIf it's already been said in one place it shouldn't be copied in another. It deserves to be said, just under his books, not in the lead. The Cap'n (talk) 18:54, 18 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Option 4 by Barney the barney barney - the new ages stuff should be mentioned - this is referenced and needs mentioning, but I don't think it's important or relevant enough to be in the lead. IMHO it should go with the "origins of morphic resonance" section.

• Support - sounds sensible to me. Annalisa Ventola _{(Talk | Contribs)} 04:23, 18 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Weak Oppose -- I think it belongs in the lede but I guess I can live with it elsewhere in the article, if it works better that way. MilesMoney (talk) 04:35, 18 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Support I was under the impression that none of the options allowed the content to remain in the lede. Don't feel strongly about where it goes; only that iit needs to come out of the lede and be developed within the article to good article standards Tento2 (talk) 07:19, 18 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. The fourth paragraph could be moved in its entirety to the end of the "origins of morphic resonance" section. Editors could expand on it there if they think it is important. If and when that section expands, probably it should be summarized in the lead, maybe replacing what is now in paragraph 4. Though WP:AGF is still working for me here, I have a concern that editors might use this opportunity to demean Sheldrake in his BLP, along the lines of "look at these stupid beliefs and the stupid people that hold them, and here is why they are stupid (with references)", or to remove the material unilaterally because "I don't think this stuff is important". All that is avoided if editors discuss their edits before making them. Lou Sander (talk) 13:03, 18 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Conditional support - All of what skeptics call "fringe" articles are likely to have a "New Age" following. It is fine to mention it in the body as long as it is not used in an another attempt to make Sheldrake look silly. My support is also on the condition that the subject is not used as another place to pile on with numerous, repetitive references. Tom Butler (talk) 15:15, 18 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• can live with It seems more logical to place it under the section on his books, but any edits that clean up that lead are A-OK in my book. The Cap'n (talk) 18:54, 18 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The Cap'n: If one looks at the "origins and philosophy" section, one sees a bunch of Eastern thinking stuff, Jung stuff, etc. I'm thinking that the new age stuff is similar to that, and that all those things belong together. "Origins and philosophy" could do with a better name, IMHO -- maybe something that includes Eastern, new age, etc. Renaming might be part of cleaning it up and expanding it. Lou Sander (talk) 20:42, 18 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Tom Butler (talk · contribs) - can you clarify "how new Agers view him is irrelevant."? If he was merely spouting his nonsense in his basement he would not be notable. However, he is not merely spouting it in his basement, he is publishing books and living off the lecture tour based on the fact that many many many new agers view him as something they are willing to pay for. Without the new agers= no books about his concept. Without the books about his concept =no reaction from the mainstream academic community that it is nonsense. No reaction from the mainstream community = fail Notability and no article. It seems that the opinions of New Agers are vital in the equations.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:57, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You are assuming there is a coherent New Age community. There is not. It is more a set of mostly unrelated ideas which come together as the search for personal improvement. Frankly, saying "New Agers support him" only demonstrates a lack of understanding about the culture. Look instead for a broader desire for information about things outside of mainstream thought that is not provided by mainstream academia.

Surly, you have seen the surveys. "Poll: Majority Believe In Ghosts" is just one of them. Search for "believe" in our Media Watch and you will find links to many more such surveys. people buying the books are seeking better understanding. "New Age" is something of a red herring. Tom Butler (talk) 20:18, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

So you again are looking at coverage of his popularity from an alternative framework than what the mainstream coverage of his popularity does.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:32, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn't originally going to take part, thinking my relative inexperience in how a wiki page comes into being means my opinion wasn't worth much, but then I thought, no, I have as valid an opinion as anybody else. Tom Butler said "You are assuming there is a coherent New Age community. There is not. It is more a set of mostly unrelated ideas which come together as the search for personal improvement." The sceptic community is no more organised than that. --Roxy the dog (quack quack) 20:34, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

we should stay focused on how the sources cover the subject of the article and how we can accurately reflect what the reliable sources present. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:56, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• One reference is self-published and fails WP:RS. The other reference is from a skeptic and is clearly using "New Age" as a weasel word. --Iantresman (talk) 22:28, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• I just changed my vote after realizing that I'd written oppose to all three options originally given. Didn't mean to do that, my mistake after cutting and pasting text to make sure I got the formatting right (sorry). To clarify, I'm opposing option 1, which I interpret as meaning that we take the comment out of the article altogether, and not just that we take it out of the lede. (Taking it out of the lede is a no brainer as it breaks the policy on lede content needing to briefly highlight the most important points in the body of the article). I'm opposing option 2 on the assumption that it means simply moving the content but leaving the text as it is. I'm supporting option 3 on the assumption that it means moving the content, but also giving it critical assessment and development, both in terms of what is said (to get the arguments across correctly), and the references used to support it.

I hope I have interpreted the poll options correctly. If I am confused then maybe other's are too. Tento2 (talk) 07:14, 18 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm wondering what the point of this poll was. Is there going to be some kind of conclusion based on the responses? I see the comment has been removed from the lede and placed elsewhere with no attention given to the criticism of the refs. Was this because of the result of the poll or disregard to it? Tento2 (talk) 12:08, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To me, the purpose was to see if some sort of civil consensus could be found. It took a long time, but in the end most people agreed on what to do. Most people who responded did so thoughtfully and on topic. There weren't many responses that were nothing more than somebody's opinion about what another editor had said. Some editors didn't respond at all, maybe for the best. Lou Sander (talk) 12:57, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Due to historical accident, this subsection has two supportive quotes. The Roszak review was originally misapplied to the first book; Roszak actually reviewed the second book (both books were re-issued years later in green covers with "morphic resonance" in the title). After discovering this I fished around for something else to counterbalance Maddox, and found Josephson. However the Roszak review was kept and applied to the second book. Thus this section now depicts a false-balance "controversy", when there isn't actually a controversy. There's a social/public controversy -- thanks in part to Maddox -- but not a scientific one.

The Roszak review is inexplicable; when New Scientist saw themselves quoted on the cover of Sheldrake's book, their reaction was "Did we say that?" and "Eh?".[7] Since this anomalous review is not representative of the reactions from the scientific community, there would seem to be undue weight on it. (Missteps by New "Darwin Was Wrong" Scientist are not without precedent.)

I don't know how to fix this in a non-apparently-contentious way. vzaak (talk) 22:15, 20 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Just leave this here for a day or two and see what people say about it. Lou Sander (talk) 23:39, 20 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should start by abandoning the cherry picking that Sheldrakes publishers did. Start with Roszak 's summary showing one aspect of the reception at the time of the initial release "[ http://www.newscientist.com/data/doc/teaser/blog/201106/nsreview.pdf books such as this are the life's blood of science: bold, speculative efforts that seek grand unities]" then place that in the context of Back then, Roszak gave Sheldrake the benefit of the doubt. Today, attitudes have hardened and Sheldrake is seen as standing firmly on the wilder shores" . Then got into the fact that the reprint that that has the two quotes picked from Roszak on its cover, and then the New Scientist again with their pointing out that the comments on the jacket are from the original review 20 years earlier. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:14, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Red: You may have some good points here, but people might not read them when you start by accusing a publisher of cherry picking. If your points are good, they don't need that. Lou Sander (talk) 00:25, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

When the publishers choose to use one review quote on their book cover and use one from 20 years ago on the cover of a book that is supposed to be a "fully revised and updated" version - to call that anything BUT "cherry picking" would be obfuscation of nearly criminal levels. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:37, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Red: You may have some good points here, but people might not read them when you start by accusing a publisher of cherry picking, then go on and on about why it's justified. If your points are good, they don't need that. Lou Sander (talk) 01:02, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

its seeming to me that you are taking every possible opportunity to divert the discussion in every section away from content. is that on purpose? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 01:39, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Red: No. In this particular small section, I'm trying to let an editor know, politely, that they may have some good points, but that it is hard to get to them when that editor's presentation starts with accusations. The accusations may or may not be accurate, but the act of making them draws attention away from the points the editor is trying to make. Lou Sander (talk) 16:55, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Vzaak: I've read your material about the historical accident, but I don't know what you are talking about. There's a lot of history, and a lot of description of your personal thought processes, but for the life of me, I don't know what you are suggesting. It may be something wonderful, but it's just too hard to figure out what it is.

Regarding the "first subsection of books", I can't tell precisely what you are referring to, but I imagine it includes the material headed A New Science of Life and The Presence of the Past. I notice that the material about A New Science of Life contains six lines about the book itself, and eleven lines about a single editorial that was written in response to its publication. Those eleven lines contain fourteen references and four wikilinks, all seeming to be dismissive of Sheldrake's work. I do not see that as balanced coverage from a neutral point of view. Sheldrake has many thoughtful critics; I don't think we need to quote and explain every one of them. Better might be to summarize. Lou Sander (talk) 17:40, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

WP:VALID (yet again) -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:46, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Let's try to come to consensensus about this topic and how it might apply to this article. David in DC (talk) 02:34, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

i am not sure what you are suggesting here: are you suggesting a straw poll on the oft mentioned "one article about Sheldrake - one article about his theories" split? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 02:45, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Is Sheldrake even notable without his fringe theories? If not, then his biography will be a stub, while all the real meat will be in ^(redact)theories of Rupert Sheldrake or whatever it's called. MilesMoney (talk) 03:01, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not suggesting anything other than what I asked. If the answer to the question "[m]ust our treatment of this living fringe theorist differ from our treatment of his theories?" is no, that will guide the rest of how we structure the article.

If it's yes, that will too.

FWIW, I think the POVFORK idea is a bad one. I think there IS tension between BLP and FRINGE. And I think the solution is to keep the lead, early life and education sections factual, without derogatory comment and the books and public appearances sections replete with sources providing the context that the content of these books and appearances, "morphic resonance", is not science. I also think it might be useful, on a page seeking consensus, to foreswear words like ^(redact). Fringe and psuedoscience convey the same meanings. David in DC (talk) 11:39, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Describing morphic resonance in the lead without including criticism of it would not be in line with WP:NPOV, in particular WP:PSCI (no need to even mention WP:FRINGE here). (Could we please not dramatize this as "derogatory"? It is criticism. You wrote the criticism paragraph in the lead, and I presume you didn't write it for the purpose of being derogatory.) vzaak (talk) 12:38, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The answer to the vague theoretical question is "All content about every subject must be treated according to policies". Given the eternal sprawl of this talk page I really do not see any possible advantage of initiating yet another theoretical discussion to encourage people to vent yet again their opinions in a forum and format that cannot possibly lead to any real determination of consensus. In all of the endless muck on this page, the only thing that has lead to any actual consensus on article content is the highly organized Talk:Rupert_Sheldrake#Straw_Poll. Any "discussions" that lack form and structure are surely simply going to devolve into yet another time sink and waste of precious pixels. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:51, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I think the focus should be on specific and concrete issues. vzaak (talk) 13:09, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with vzaak on that. There are some difficulties with accomplishing it on this page. For example, when editor A says "I think we should discuss specific and concrete matter X," editors B, C, or D, or some combination, say "That's a really stupid idea. Don't you know M, or N, or P? And by the way, I think you are really trying to do Q". Lou Sander (talk) 17:05, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

allowing WP:SOUP is part of the problem on this page. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:12, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

David in DC: I believe that what you are trying to do is exactly what you say in the title to this section. I agree with your idea that we shouldn't use nasty words. Maybe it would be useful to seek consensus that Sheldrake is a living fringe theorist (or something like that), and that there is widespread virulent criticism of his ideas among scientists. IMHO, nobody who edits here seems to doubt that. Also IMHO, some editors seem to think that other editors DO doubt it. Further, IMHO, some editors here seem to be weak in the skills of coming to consensus. Getting some sort of basic consensus would help on that end, too. Lou Sander (talk) 17:56, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Some of these responses are regrettable. Others help shed some light. As to vzaak's point, I did indeed write the paragraph in question, which I think is, incrementally, better than what came before. I think the "Note" device does a great job of summarizing the various grounds on which Shaldrake's concept draws criticism.

I'm sad that experienced wikipedia editors find the basic question I started this thread with "theoretical." It's not theoretical at all. It's a real-world problem that occurs every time we write about a living person who is not a saint. I agree that articles should be written according to policy. When policies conflict, civil, nuanced editorial judgments must be made.

WP:BLP is a core policy - at the top of the WP:BLP page, it says: "This page documents an English Wikipedia policy, a widely accepted standard that all editors should normally follow. Changes made to it should reflect consensus."

WP:Fringe theories is not. at the top of the WP:FRINGE page, it says: This page documents an English Wikipedia content guideline. It is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply.

WP:NPOV, like WP:BLP, is a core policy and bears the same top-of-the-page legend as WP:BLP. Skepticism is a point of view.

I do not expect to convince editors who dismiss even the usefulness of the question I've posed. But it does make me dispair about how far we've fallen from an ethic that is supposed to make sure that the dignity of living people should be of paramount importance. It's very hard for me to see how anyone might be misled by an article that seperated the biography of a person from full-throated, sourced criticism of his theories.

I'll repeat, I crafted the paragraph that vzaak says I did, and I think its enough, especially as improved by vzaak's note. But, I think the "conservation of energy" and "perpetual motion" stuff is simply unnecessary to a biographical lede about Rupert Sheldrake. It screams "Not only is his principle notable theory non-science, he also believes in a whole bunch of outre things and really ought to be dismissed as a nut job." And it reflects a level of vehemence that makes this talk page a black mark on wikipedia. David in DC (talk)

^see, your concerns are actually specifically identifiable and actionable. the vague "Must our treatment of this living fringe theorist differ from our treatment of his theories?" is not. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:03, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

WP:PSCI, also known as Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Fringe theories and pseudoscience, is a part of WP:NPOV; there's no need to refer to WP:FRINGE in this case. The policy (not guideline) is also common sense, because not mentioning how certain fringe ideas are viewed by the scientific community would have the effect of misinforming readers (even if it's a sin of omission rather than a sin of commission).

For the lead, is the dogma paragraph your only objection? vzaak (talk) 19:58, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think the nonsense about the perpetual motion machines/conversation of energy belongs in the lead section either. The science as dogma nonsense however does. Barney the barney barney (talk) 20:19, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't disagree, but I don't know of any viable alternatives. If we remove the conservation of energy bit and leave just the "series of dogmas" bit, then it's not clear to the reader what "series of dogmas" really means. Is it the central dogma or what? Mentioning conservation of energy efficiently pinpoints what Sheldrake is getting at. We have but one reaction to Science Set Free from mainstream science -- the brief New Scientist review -- and "woolly credulousness" / "uncritically embracing all kinds of fringe ideas" are not appropriate for the lead. Thus we can't address "series of dogmas" generally, so we have to do it specifically. vzaak (talk) 21:30, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the example is a good idea, IRWolfie- (talk) 23:27, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

David in DC "When policies conflict, civil, nuanced editorial judgments must be made." Not all editors are capable of that. Not all editors are even capable of sticking to a subject, or of thinking clearly about things outside their own feelings and beliefs. That used to upset me more than it does now; implementing THIS was a lot of help. Lou Sander (talk) 21:04, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

any decision about what to do when "policies conflict" will depend entirely upon the sources and the policy and the suggested article content at the time "policies conflict". No general theorizing about "what should we do when policies conflict?" will ever be appropriate to any specific time when it happens.

The only way this article will advance is specific content with specific sources, being applied per specific intersections of appropriate polices as determined by the content and the sources. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:17, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• The "it's only a guideline" argument is not one I expect an established editor to make. David, if you want to make a specific proposal, then make it. General questions don't belong here. This page has had enough irrelevant distractions. IRWolfie- (talk) 23:29, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If the only thing one draws from my posting is "its only a guideline"... well, it suggests an interesting blindness to the rest of what I've typed. The diktat "General questions do not belong here." is silly. Of course they do. This particular "general question" defines the different approaches to editing being followed by those editing from a skeptical POV and those editing from an approach that elevates concern for BLP over the mythical danger that someone could read this article and fail to understand that morphic resonance is not reliable science. Belief in that myth betrays a true disdain for the elementary intelligence of our readers.

We do not have to beat our readers over the head, at every possible instance, with the skeptic's POV.

The desperate, zealous need to do so says more about the editors editing from a skeptical POV than it does about Sheldrake.

"is not one I expect an established editor to make. David," is a tautology. It is self-evident. I will never meet your expectations. And I praise the Flying Spaghetti Monster every day that this is so.David in DC (talk) 00:51, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It eventually comes down to practical questions in any case. Is the dogma paragraph your only problem with the lead? How could it be fixed? vzaak (talk) 06:30, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

How should the mainstream view of "science has become a series of dogmas" be addressed in the lead?

Do we pick a dogma such as conservation of energy and provide the mainstream view of that? Or do we quote from a source that that directly address the issue, e.g. "woolly credulousness"? Or something else?

• [your bullet point here]

• We shouldn't address it at all. We should say somethng like "Sheldrake questions several of the foundations of modern science, arguing that science has become a series of dogmas rather than an open-minded approach to investigating phenomena." We could possibly give an example or two, such as conservation of energy, with maybe a few words about why he questions it/them, for the purpose of being more particular about his challenges/thoughts. There is no need to defend the foundations of modern science, or any one of them (they stand in mighty eminence on their own, and the link to conservation of energy, if there is one, will let readers see for themselves how foundational it is). There is no need to point out how stupid Sheldrake is for questioning such obvious truths. All that stuff, if it is done at all, could/should be done in the body of the article. Lou Sander (talk) 23:22, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Lou, I think you are slightly mis-stating Sheldrake's position... he does not so much question several of the foundations of modern science, as he questions the validity of modern science-manufacturing infrastructure (decisions on grant monies / decisions on university tenure / et cetera) which is often used to stifle particular lines of research, including Sheldrake's own morphic resonance, but also historical subject like perpetual motion machines (the conservation of energy thing), and so on. I have no topic-knowledge of Sheldrake, but from my quick read, I doubt he thinks conservation of energy is wrong, but rather, wants the $$$cash$$$ to pursue his research into morphic resonance, and therefore is making a more general argument, namely, that politicians and deans and the textbook review committee of the local school board should *not* have any say in what research projects scientists ought, or can, undertake. For a modern controversy, unrelated to Sheldrake or perpetual motion, where both sides claim the other side is mis-using the cash-grant-power and dean-policy-power to Push An Agenda, see anthropogenic catastrophic global warming. For an older but of course still ongoing controversy, see the argument that professors of philosophy and religion and similar subjects should be granted lifetime tenure, so as to insulate them from getting their funding yanked by some petty dean or grant-making-agency, should the professor's publications fail to toe the current line that politicians and pooh-bahs demand. Anyhoo, although Sheldrake definitely is making his scientists-are-too-dogmatic claims from a definite POV stance, which would result (in theory) in giving Sheldrake's work a direct cash infusion, should his argument be successful in changing the infrastructure... it is not fair to say "Sheldrake questions modern science". That's a paraphrase, which ends up being very misleading. HTH 74.192.84.101 (talk) 16:37, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Erm what is this and why is this in such a strange format. Discussions should be accompanied by sources. We don't make decisions in the absence of sources, IRWolfie- (talk) 23:25, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• We are stating Sheldrake's views, not claiming that science really is dogmatic. All we need do is point readers to the article on dogma for more details. The perceived dogmatic nature of science is not a question considered by science, but by the philosophy of science. --Iantresman (talk) 09:30, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Stating the views of Sheldrake, as documented in his books/blog/whatnot, is fine, per WP:ABOUTSELF. However, the article has to make clear *that* they are Sheldrake's views (as distinct from mainstream biochemist views or whatever the context demands), and furthermore, has to be careful about not giving any of Sheldrake's particular (sourced&documented) views undue weight relative to each other. If he makes an offhand comment about $foo at some point in his career, it should not be blown up into a huge portion of his BLP article... unless the comment blew up into a huge Real Life Controversy, as documented by WP:RS repeatedly mentioning said comment. Definitely a complex balancing act. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 16:37, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• I agree completely, Lou Sander. That particular paragraph reflects what I feel is a distracting trend in the lead to treat Rupert Sheldrake's BLP as a platform to defend a perceived attack on the legitimacy of science. The reference to his views contradicting basic principles of physics is a good case in point; none of those views are described without an immediate refutation. I think the underlying assumption that needs to be challenged is that one man's biography page is the best place to justify scientific consensus. I read the sources and sections regarding those views and they appear to simply be specific instances of Sheldrake's broader position of questioning accepted scientific conclusions. As mentioned above, the links to the topics being referenced will provide the reader with any tangential information they want, so there's no need to spend undue and inappropriate time debunking someone's views on their own BLP. As far as sources go, sources don't make arguments, they support them; one could make the sources on this page say many different viewpoints. The fact that sources exist that deride Sheldrake's views does not mean they need to be given equal weight to actual biographical information and referenced in the lead. By FSM's great noodly appendage, let's strip down this lead! The Cap'n (talk) 10:53, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

WP:FRINGE/WP:NPOV is that we provide the mainstream contextualisation in the article. We don't expect people to hunt references down to get it, IRWolfie- (talk) 07:25, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sure. But there's a difference between differentiating Sheldrake's view on X from the mainstream biochemist's view on X, where the topic X is in fact important to the BLP article about Sheldrake (i.e. that Sheldrake has spent considerable time and energy and published-pages devoted to topic X thereby proving it is an important part of his views), and by contrast mis-using the BLP article to bring up Y and Z and a hundred other things, merely for the purpose of knocking them down. See my comment above, concerning giving-topic-Z-undue-weight-relative-to-the-bulk-of-Sheldrake's-work-during-his-lifetime. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 16:37, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• I don't think we need to go into great detail here. The lead should summarise the article. It may be worth mentioning that he claims science is a series of dogmata and that this is not uncontroversial. Barney the barney barney (talk) 12:49, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Agree, per my comments above. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 16:37, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There were 54 threads open, so I archived the older ones and left 7. Bot seems to not be working, I tried to fix the template, not sure if it will make any difference, IRWolfie- (talk) 23:23, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

David just added this title. Since the source was an article Sheldrake wrote, I replaced it with a news article about the stabbing.

Under the parapsychologist refs: the first ref is from Nature and says "parapsychologist" without mentioning biologist/biochemist/etc; the second ref is from New Scientist and says "biochemist-turned-parapsychologist"; the third ref is from Nature and says "former biochemist".

It would seem that he is viewed as a parapsychologist and former biochemist by his peers, while he views himself as a biologist. I thought the situation before David's change was a good compromise: call him a biochemist/cell biologist/plant physiologist for the years shown without explicitly saying "former biochemist". vzaak (talk) 06:20, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Biologists research biology and publish that research as part of the scientific process. Sheldrake hasn't done any biology since the mid 1980s. Barney the barney barney (talk) 10:10, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

People in a field do not need to do research or publish in journals to be members of that field. Consider teachers of biology in small liberal arts colleges. Lou Sander (talk) 12:28, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The University of Binghamton refers to him as a biochemist,[8] and the University of Cambridge also acknowledges his Ph.D[9] as does the University of Edinburgh,[10]. He is also referred to as a biologist by the University of London,[11] the University of Arizona,[12] and the Open University,[13] What academic sources do we have that describe him as anything else? --Iantresman (talk) 12:54, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that some sources are inaccurate in their language doesn't mean Wikipedia should be. Biology teachers are biology teachers, but Sheldrake doesn't teach any more either. Barney the barney barney (talk) 12:57, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I thought we went with the sources. The part in the article I supplied that calls him a biologist is not in his voice. It's in The Ecologist's explanation of who he is. Written this month. "A biologist does biology" is not and observation about what the source says. David in DC (talk) 13:00, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The job of an editor is to say things appropriate to an encyclopedia, from a neutral point of view, and based on published sources. There is judgment involved. If it is appropriate to call him a writer or a biologist or a parapsychologist, it's not necessary to comb through lots of sources to find people who call him that. Neither is it necessary to list every thing that every source has called him. Lou Sander (talk) 13:28, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

David, nobody is contesting that there are sources that say he's a biologist. But of all the sources, the weakest ones would be those written by Sheldrake himself. Editors tend to ask authors how they wish to be described. Using an independent source makes your claim stronger, not weaker. (Did you realize I didn't delete "biologist", but only substituted an independent source?) vzaak (talk) 13:31, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, a biologist is "An expert or specialist in biology; a student of biology" which is met by Sheldrake's doctorate. Those who call Sheldrake a "parapsychologist" are not independent peers, but skeptics who are clearly trying to discredit him. I would venture:

"Sheldrake is an author with a Ph.D in biochemistry, who has undertaken research in biology, and more recently in the field of parapsychology."

--Iantresman (talk) 15:11, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That's not bad, but maybe could be better. I wish I had the words. In the first short paragraph I think we need to say that he's an author and lecturer (his main recent and notable activities, briefly stated). We should clarify that by somehow saying he's a legitimate scientist (from his education and early work) who has moved into areas that are legitimately challenged by legitimate scientists (parapsychology is one of them, but there might be better, less controversial, words to describe what he's into now). That might be enough for the first paragraph. Lou Sander (talk) 16:27, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sheldrake is not notable as a biologist. As has been pointed out, he massively fails WP:PROF. It would be somewhat like describing Maggie Thatcher as a chemist, when her chemistry career did not make her notable, but something else did. Barney the barney barney (talk) 17:52, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sheldrake is notable as a person. A biography of Margaret Thatcher that made no mention of her training as a chemist would need an edit adding that fact.

Kevin Trudeau is a convicted scam artist. An article about him without mention of his role in the world of billiards would be incomplete.

Dr. Joyce Brothrs' article would be incomplete without a reference to her stint as a boxing expert on a 1950's game show. David in DC (talk) 18:12, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Providing proper context is necessary, i.e. former biologist/biochemist/plant physiologist. He no longer works in academia. Barney the barney barney (talk) 18:30, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I would suggest:

"Sheldrake is an author and lecturer with a Ph.D in biochemistry, who has undertaken research in biology, and more recently in the field of parapsychology."

Our subsequent paragraphs then make it clear that he is no longer in academia. --Iantresman (talk) 20:28, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Ian, individuals at a university using a label does not mean the university endorses it. Universities do not review subpages belonging to institutes and individuals. For example, you have again cited Brian Josesphon, well known for his support of cold fusion, bubble fusion, telepathy and homeopathy "researchers", and his "mind-matter project" as "the university of Cambridge. That is highly misleading as you are very much aware, IRWolfie- (talk) 20:36, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• The Perrott-Warrick Lecture by Dr. Rupert Sheldrake[14] is published by the University of Cambridge. There is no suggestion that the University officially endorses Sheldrake's or Josephson's views, and no University would endorse the views of any lecturer. I would imagine that if the University thought there was any impropriety, adverse publicity, or even "pseudoscience", then they would drop the listing for the lecture like a hot potato. The University shows Sheldrake as Dr. Rupert Sheldrake because he has a doctorate in biochemistry from the University of Cambridge, and no matter how many times editors wish to associate him (or his colleagues) with minority views, he will remain a doctor in biochemistry.
• You will also note in my suggested wording above, that I avoided using an academic job label, in deference to the very criticism you are making. --Iantresman (talk) 21:33, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Somehow we need to convey the idea that he has legitimate scientific credentials, especially since his scientific work raised doubts that led to his infamous hypothesis and to his book that challenges many scientific dogmas. It is not helpful to lecture other editors, or to point out that his scientific credentials are insufficient in themselves to make him notable. Lou Sander (talk) 21:18, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. This is a biography. If he has a doctorate, or thinks dogs are capable of telepathy, as long as we have WP:RS, we should include it. Tertiary academic qualifications are a significant and relevant part of any person's biography. --Iantresman (talk) 21:41, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Er, not indeed. The opening sentence needs to explain WHY he's in the encyclopedia. Claiming that he's a biologist when he doesn't meet the criteria for academics (WP:PROF), is just yet more wishful thinking from fans. Barney the barney barney (talk) 21:50, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

WP:PROF states whether an individual is a notable academic for an article, not whether individual facts are included or excluded. But independent sources suggest otherwise (note that notability is not temporary, per WP:NTEMP):

• Gale's "Notable Scientists from 1900 to the Present: N-S" (I can see no axe to grind), states:[15] "Rupert Sheldrake, a British biochemist..", putting him in context before noting his controversial hypothesis.
• New Scientist, which some editors used as a source to support his description as a "parapsychologist"[16] has also not only described him as "Cambridge biochemist"[17], but appears to have endorsed his research, and another New Scientist article describing Sheldrake as "an excellent scientist"[18]
• An Oxford University Press book published only 2 years ago (2011) described Sheldrake as "research biologist and biochemist"[19] --Iantresman (talk) 22:20, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is all reminiscent of Tumbleman. It's not productive to discuss personal reasons why Sheldrake's legitimate credentials shouldn't be mentioned. Lou Sander (talk) 22:35, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Repeat. Just because some people are sloppy and inaccurate with their descriptions doesn't mean we have to be.

• He's included in the Gale book, but so what? That's their editorial judgement - our standards are WP:PROF - and Sheldrake fails on them.
• The New Scientist quote is from 1982, back then, he could be described as a scientist with a straight face. Also, we have seen from the positive review of Sheldrake's book that New Scientist was a little more tolerant of such things back then - after all they are principally concerned with entertaining their readers, not publishing original research.
• The final book is a book on Ethnomusicology, which I cannot see of being any relevance to this article whatsoever. This really is scraping the barrel, isn't it now?

Don't cherry pick references. Barney the barney barney (talk) 22:42, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The notability guideline does not apply to article content; it is used to "decide whether a topic can have its own article". See Wikipedia:Notability#Notability guidelines do not limit content within an article.

"Repeat. Just because some people are sloppy and inaccurate with their descriptions doesn't mean we have to be."

"Don't cherry pick references."

You should take your own advice. Articles on Wikipedia are based on reliable sources. The University of Cambridge is a reliable source, as are the other universities referenced above. You don't get to cherry pick the references that support your view while excluding the ones that don't. --Joshua Issac (talk) 22:50, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Going not by !votes or !vehemence, but rather by mention in reliable sources, I think Joshua Isaac above and ScaryMary below make the best policy-based points. The rejection of nearly every citation to reliable sources for "biologist" --- both here and in the archives Mary's been directed to --- adds up to "any source that says so is wrong, he's a psuedo-scientist, dammit. He's left science." The source you cite is wrong. Or it's too old. Or it's unreliable.

Every answer in the book except: "Gee, I'm quite certain he's not a scientist, but my steadfast certainty is not a reliable source. A sufficient number of unrelated, recent, reliable sources having the temirity to disagree with what I personally know to be the WP:TRUTH have been proffered; I guess I'll bow to the rule that we hew to the sources. Our work in making sure readers know that "morphic resonance" is not biology is pretty complete. There's ample room in the "book" sections to refute Sheldrake's theories and place them in a context far removed from modern science. By gum, I think we've done it so well and carefully that, as a matter of biography, it's O.K. to keep calling him a biologist, the same way William Shockley still gets to be called Doctor and Kirk Douglas still gets to be called "actor". David in DC (talk) 05:34, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Neither the nodal damage to Julie Andrews' vocal nodes, nor Linda Rondstadt's Parkinson's render them former singers, or ex-singers. And you'd best not call very-late career Sinatra a former singer or an ex-singer. At least not in some of the circles I've been known in which to travel. Try that last one at a Teamsters convention and let me know how it works out for you.

Editors with a skeptical POV should re-read the totality of the sources they're rejected both on this current talk page and in the threads being shoveled off into the archives Mary's being asked to search. Are they really all too unreliable, too old or too plebeian. Isn't it just barely possible that what they are is contrary to the WP:TRUTH David in DC (talk) 05:55, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The question is: What do we do when faced with conflicting sources? Discussing the "controversy" in the opening sentence is not feasible, of course, so we must decide. The problem of "picking the sources you like" cuts both ways. One criteria would be to use the strongest, most respected sources, and on that criteria Nature is the winner. Moreover, the article already treats the matter delicately, calling him a biochemist/cell biologist/plant physiologist in the years active while avoiding descriptions like "former biochemist". vzaak (talk) 06:41, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If a reliable source says he is a biologist, Wikipedia can say he's a biologist. If another says he is NOT a biologist, the sources are in conflict, and Wikipedia needs to be careful about calling him a biologist. If another RS says he is an Anglican, but says nothing about biology, Wikipedia can call him both a biologist and an Anglican; the sources do not conflict. If a reliable source says he is a really stupid man, or has bad personal hygeine, WP:BLP says Wikipedia needs to be careful about mentioning it. Lou Sander (talk) 13:03, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I believe this is a truthful statement, although in fact the opening couple of sentences would probably be fine. "Barney wrote: The opening sentence needs to explain WHY he's in the encyclopedia." Currently, that article says "Sheldrake (1942-) is an English author, lecturer, and parapsychologist." Methinks we can usefully change that to say biochemist-and-now-parapsychologist.

Given that, the follow-on explanation of how he got that way, should just roll off the tongue.

Sheldrake (1942-) is an English biochemist[1][2][3]-and-now-parapsychologist[4][5][6], notable as a controversial[7][8] author/lecturer. After an academic university career from 1960-1973, including a master's at Clare College, fellowship at Harvard, and Ph.D from U. Cambridge, as well as post-doctoral work as a biochemist and cell biologist, (professorship? teaching?), and publication of several peer-reviewed papers, Sheldrake began to question in YYYY^[when?] whether existing biology/chemistry/physics theories could explain plant morphology (the shape which mature plants eventually assume during growth), and came up with his initial concept of morphogenetics in the early 1970s. Shortly afterwards, he left academia in 1973, spent five years as a commercial researcher (principal plant physiologist) at ICRISAT in Hyderabad, then began his book-publishing career with A New Science of Life in 1981. Since then, he has authored six additional books, and co-authored six more, most recently in 2012. Sheldrake was a psychical researcher of Trinity College in Cambridge from 2005 to 2010.

(new paragraph) Since the 1980s, Sheldrake's books and experimental work have centered on morphic resonance. (explain morphic resonance in two NPOV sentences -- mention Sheldrake's view that academic gatekeepers are hindering a Kuhnian-style revolution in science)

(new paragraph) (explain controversial nature of morphic resonance in two NPOV sentences -- mention that critics see Sheldrake's position on overturning the academic-gatekeepers as self-serving)

1. early life (move 'university education' paragraph into academic career section below ... postdoc research is nothing like getting your 4-year B.A., it is part of your academic career)
2. academic career (including later academic interactions -- see true-scotsman section being cut below)
3. origin and philosophy of morphic resonance (moved up... this is where it belongs chronologically, between academia & books)
4. book-publishing career (is there a good reason books are doubled-up? super-long headers are really a distracting layout ... why no co-authored books mentioned?)
5. post-academia lectures and public appearances
6. cut POV "interaction with true-scotsman scientists" section right out -- move sentences into 'academic career' subsection above
7. personal life (maybe cut this, and add the couple sentences as a fourth paragraph in the intro? no meat here)
8. bibliography (can this be folded into book-publishing-career section above? or ISBNs too distracting?)

Although it is only kinda-sorta grammatical, I think if we want to have a hope of writing the intro-sentence in a way that captures Sheldrake, we have to use the awkward biochemist-and-now-parapsychologist. That phrasing prevents POV descriptions like 'former scientist' or like simply eliding any mention of his scientific street-cred. It also cuts to the heart of *why* Sheldrake is a 'controversial author' ... because he does work that can be classified as parapsychology and in particular colloquial telepathy ... but also because he has the harvard fellowship, the u.cambridge phd, and the other top-notch credentials. Hope this helps. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 03:00, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

it's simply a gift to anyone who think it doesn't hurt to lighten things up a bit. It's also the awesomest pseudoref ever. [20] David in DC (talk) 13:07, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Can we all post funny links that involve Sheldrake now? IRWolfie- (talk) 20:38, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I doubt we all can. Some of us appear to be lacking any discernable sense of humor. And I suspect that the real question is "May we...?" In any event, I'd suggest limiting such postings to this one thread.

Congrats on resisting canine Pavlovian response for a full 7+ hours. David in DC (talk) 02:10, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Personally I'd prefer if people didn't post whatever they thought was funny related to Sheldrake here as that could possibly constitute a BLP violation, depending on the specifics, IRWolfie- (talk) 11:09, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

IRWolfie, methinks your spidey-senses are incorrect, in this particular instance. WP:BLPTALK and also the various exceptions listed in WP:TALK are careful to delineate that you can make you opinion known on talkpages, even if your opinion is extremely unpopular... but that if you say something that might be considered Slanderous or Libelous about a Living Person, either it must be *very* reliably sourced or it must be removed immediately. Technically, all David has done in this section is link to an external site, and they are the ones claiming such-and-such. (Well... presuming that David is not the author of the article to which he linked... if he is, then he'd probably be violating BLPTALK, if the case was taken to a jury trial.) And that *is* what WP:BLPTALK is all about -- avoiding getting the wikimedia foundation, on which all our servers depend, involved in a legal battle with high-powered lawyers claiming defamation. Merely linking to external criticism, without even describing the contents of that external site (beyond calling the site a pseudoref and not-serious), cannot legally be actionable as grounds for libel. Contrast with WP:COPYVIO, where there are some laws that merely linking to a youtube video which violates the RIAA or the MPAA or the Disney Cabal's government-granted monopoly privilege on cartoon mice with round black ears can get the WMF drug into court on conspiracy-to-infringe charges. That said, quite a lot of the discussion *elsewhere* on this talkpage -- not by David anywhere that I noticed but by several others -- definitely crosses the WP:BLPTALK line, and must please be removed immediately, and not put back until and unless a *really* WP:RS can be cited as saying so, in exactly so many words. Hypothetically, for instance, calling some credentialed scientist, say, 'wacky' or the equivalent, could get the wikimedia foundation sued into the ground. Resist the temptation. Gracias for your attention, carry on, thanks for improving wikipedia, folks. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 15:58, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Update, I redacted a couple words on this talkpage, violating the sanctity of comments made by other folks, which is a breach of WP:TALK etiquette, but fully justified by the exception listed at WP:BLPTALK. Sorry if this puts anyone out. Not able to fix the article, of course, since it is locked to prevent that. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 17:44, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps Sheldrake is New Agey after all. In The Rebirth of Nature he addresses "the topic of New Age consciousness",[21] and Sheldrake himself says he was influenced by New Age.[22] The source in the article[23] mentions the Hundredth monkey effect, but Sheldrake is only sceptical of that particular anecdote, not the effect itself.[24] The source in the article also makes a guess ("seems to be a sceptic") about Sheldrake's take on "critical mass", which shouldn't be reported as fact. Maybe the New Age bit should be removed until this is sorted out. vzaak (talk) 13:24, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Removing it would lessen people's understanding of Sheldrake. Lou Sander (talk) 14:02, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Timing is everything. People's perspectives can (sometimes) change given changes in the world around them. in '88 sources wonder if Sheldrake appreciates his New Age fan base with the implication that he sees it as a distraction. It may be necessary to parse his personal acceptance of being "one among the New Agery" or just seeing them as "a market that will buy his works" based upon particular points in history. (of course, such will depend upon what the sources say - with self-identification being an important lens.)-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:24, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Please see above, there are some explicit quotes from Sheldrake about his changing spirituality over time, which we can cite per WP:ABOUTSELF. Since the section where I posted is terribly long, I suggest you use ctrl+f in your browser and find the string "pretty confident Sheldrake has read the book". It is up in the discussion of 4th paragraph of the lede. HTH. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 01:17, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am very puzzled by this wiki page. May I ask why Mr Sheldrake is given the job title parapsychologist in the introduction, when it clearly states he is a biologist and scientist in his CV and on various websites. Even the ones that are critical of his views, don't deny the qualifications and titles that he has. I will change the intro tomorrow unless you can give me some jolly good reasons why not. You might not agree with his thinking, but his qualifications and experience, I would have thought need to be recorded correctly in an on-line encyclopedia, unless of course, there is some weird agenda going on?
here are the references to that effect:
BBC Biologist http://www.nautis.com/2012/09/bbc-belief-interview-with-professor-rupert-sheldrake/
Philosophy Now http://philosophynow.org/issues/93/The_Science_Delusion_by_Rupert_Sheldrake
The Independent:
"If Rupert Sheldrake was simply a commentator, sniping from a distance, his arguments might be swept aside. But he is a scientist himself, through and through: a botanist with a double first from Cambridge; a Fellowship at Clare College; a Royal Society Fellowship. For some years he was principal physiologist at the International Crops Research Institute for the Semi-Arid Tropics (ICRISAT) in Hyderabad, India, where he helped to develop new varieties of pulses, key sources of protein."
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/reviews/the-science-delusion-freeing-the-spirit-of-enquiry-by-rupert-sheldrake-6285286.html
The Guardian ...note is says on their site he is a BIOLOGIST and author but in case you want to argue here's the link http://www.theguardian.com/profile/rupert-sheldrake
Even the US Science Mag gives him the proper credit http://www.sciencemag.org/search?site_area=sciencejournals&y=12&fulltext=rupert%20sheldrake&x=38&journalcode=sci&journalcode=sigtrans&journalcode=scitransmed&submit=yes

Best wishes Veryscarymary (talk) 19:10, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

scientists do not cling to magical proposals. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:49, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Mary. I wonder if you would read this Talk page, and the archives before you start adding stuff. Much of what you propose has already been covered. --Roxy the dog (quack quack) 19:59, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Scientists are quite capable of investigating subjects that others consider pseudoscience, as is evidence by the University of Edinburgh's Koestler Parapsychology Unit, the University of Arizona's Division of Perceptual Studies Princeton's now closed PEAR. Ridiculing people is uncivil, unscientific, and unbecoming a Wikipedia editor. --Iantresman (talk) 22:53, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Mary is correct in expressing her point and concern. "scientists do not cling to magical proposals." is not helpful. We are not editing in a vacuum. Like Mary, other editors will be coming by from time to time and some will ask the same questions, probably leading to edits. That is what I mean by the article not being stable as it is.

I have to agree that it is correct to say he is a biologist. Editors here do not get to decide otherwise just because they don't like his quest for new knowledge. Tom Butler (talk) 01:17, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

so you think that scientists DO cling to magical to magical proposals? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:21, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Should you actually read what I said, you will see that I was complaining about how your sarcasm is unnecessary. If you want to insult the person, then go ahead and say he is thinking magically. I fell confident you can find a reference for that, just as I am sure you will be able to make such a statement a permanent part of the article since skeptics will see that it helps to assure that people will see Sheldrake as they do. Tom Butler (talk) 01:27, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Of course scientists cling to magical proposals. Clarke's three laws are all you need know to understand this bedrock truth.

And before you dismiss Clarke as a science fiction writer, please check out who calculated the necesseary measurements to put a sattelite in geosychronus orbit. Or the history of how Robert Heinlein foiled any efort to patent the "water bed". Or Asimov's successful war to retain his tenure as a biochemist at BU.

You also might want to refresh your memory about the magical belief Albert Einstein devoted most of the 20th century to proving, the absolute and fatal flaws in quantum theory.David in DC (talk) 05:52, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I would go for something like this, that covers all the bases:

Alfred Rupert Sheldrake (born 28 June 1942)^[1] is a British biologist[25][26][27] who now researches,[28] writes and lectures[29] in the field of parapsychology[30][31] and the philosphy of science,[32] that have been the subject of controversy.[33][34]

--Iantresman (talk) 09:53, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Ian, that sounds fine enough to me and is much more respectful. There are PLENTY of scientists who have investigated and explored areas outside 'mainstream' thought, but to ignore and blatantly change their job title and qualifications is, to my way of thinking, insulting and demeaning.
Ian, would you please change the entry to read as you've suggested, it sounds a much better proposal. Even Galileo gets a better write up than this, and he was suggesting heliocentrism was the way forward and look how he was treated 'in his day' but was recognised much later. It's a similar issue with Mr Sheldrake's research, which I hasten to add IS research...
List of scientists who have investigated controversial issues:
George de la Warr in 1930
Walter Kilner
Oscar Bagnall
Nikola Tesla
Dr Edwin Babbitt
Dr Dean Radin
William Roentgen
1777 George Christian Lichetenberg
1800+DuBois
John Elliotson, founder of the University College Hospital London
Baron von Reichenbach
Wilhelm Röntgen
Dr Harold Saxton Burr
Dr. Frederick Northrop
Dr Leonard Ravitz
Hans Driesch
Nikolai Kalashchenko
Dr Louis Langman
Dr Victor Adamenko.....and more Veryscarymary (talk) 15:11, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
p.s. I am also highly confused why you/someone has described the poor man as a parapsychologist, and given 'new scientist' references from 2004 and 2006, crickey, this is 2013 and the references I have supplied are from current, peer publications, even the Independent doesn't call him a para-anything...and why only one source of reference???? that's terribly biased:( shame:( Veryscarymary (talk) 15:19, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Veryscarymary: Like you, I am confused why they/someone(s) describe him as a parapsychologist. I think I have some insight into it, though. Lou Sander (talk) 15:53, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hello veryScaryMary... you actually seem quite nice by the way... but your username is quite appropriate for this time of year! You are correct that Sheldrake's credentials are being unfairly left out of this article, but there is also the case to be made that Sheldrakes books and/or experiments in the past several decades can be described as parapsychology. It is not a neutral term, as Lou pointed out elsewhere, but I'm not sure there *is* a neutral term that describes experiments in trying to detect events that most people would describe as telepathy. So, at the end of the day I think it's correct to say that Sheldrake is now a parapsychologist... at least until the English language permits a more descriptive and less loaded term for research that involves action-at-a-distance which is not strictly gravitational. That said, only a very POV editor would disrespect Sheldrake's PhD in biochem, and his other academic credentials. In fact, those high-grade credentials are exactly why Sheldrake is so controversial; if he were a swimsuit model, or a hillbilly, or a politician, or indeed *anything* but a highly-credentialed scientist, his BLP article would be far less painful to all concerned. Anyhoo, I've tried to rewrite the intro in NPOV fashion, see the section above this, using the phrase biochemist-and-now-parapsychologist. I think that captures his fame... or depending on your POV his notoriety :-)    ... decently. Thanks for improving wikipedia. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 03:13, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There is a much better word than "parapsychologist." It's already in the article. It's the title of an actual position he once held, making it BLP-friendly, but includes a form of the word "psychic" that ought to satisfy the editors who seem to think it's important to hammer readers over the head, repeatedly, with words to diminish, malign and generally heap scorn upon the Living Person who is the subject of this Biography. I give you the last sentence in the subsection covering Dr. Sheldrake's academic career

From September 2005 until 2010, Sheldrake was a Senior Researcher in psychical research, funded by a bequest (the Perrott-Warrick Fund) administered by Trinity College, Cambridge.[38]

I tried, a while back, to substitute "psychical researcher" for "parapsychologist." I got pretty good feedback that I was on the right track. Which is to say my edit was reverted faster than one can say WP:BATTLEGROUND. David in DC (talk) 03:43, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it does not sound that bad to me... but are there any other psychical researchers? Because if it is just a title that Sheldrake gave himself (equivalent to 'director of special projects') then it will prolly fail on the grounds that readers won't know what the heck we're talking about. At present[35] the word psychical is a redirect to the article on retail-storefront-variety-psychics, and has been since 2008. Before that, it was a redirect to parapsychology for about a year... and prior to that was an unsourced stub of three sentences, explaining that psychical was non-physical, non-measurable, and/or related-to-metaphysics-slash-mind-science, with parapsychology as the primary see-also. Point being, although psychical may exist as a term, it's a pretty weak one, which is basically just a synonym for parapsychology.

   Sheldrake is a type-three parapsychologist, interested in mind-science that could conceivably one day be justified experimentally. Storefront-retail psychics tend to be type-two parapsychologists. Ghostbusters tend to be type-one parapsychologists, as do most categories of mystics although prolly they don't think of themselves in those terms. Anyways, if you think it's worth trying to swap from biochemist-and-now-parapsychologist over to biologist-biochemist-physiologist-and-now-psychical-researcher-which-is-sometimes-dubbed-parapsychology ... then I'll probably be against it.  :-)     Maybe instead, add a short mention of the five-year stint, and the chosen title, a bit further down. I'll edit my suggested rewrite. thanks 74.192.84.101 (talk) 05:09, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

==I read an article about Wiki editing, and it raised that some editors can blast other people out of the sky. I DO NOT need 'editors' to send me personal messages on my editing page. If you have something to say to me, please keep it here in the open. I do NOT just edit 'fringe' articles. My day job is a writer, and I recently edited the 'self-employment' page, can't see anything 'fringe' in that and WHY WHY WHY WHY is there such an allergy to anything that comes under the banner of 'fringe' anyway, as if investigating and researching morphic resonance is an illegal activity. Look at the paragraphs of comment since I asked a legitimate questions about the ABSENCE of Mr Sheldrake's actual qualifications and legitimate job title, which I have already stated. Crickey, some of you must get ulcers with all this confrontation. I was under the misguided belief that the page would be changed to what Ian had suggested: "Alfred Rupert Sheldrake (born 28 June 1942)[1] is a British biologist[32][33][34] who now researches,[35] writes and lectures[36] in the field of parapsychology[37][38] and the philosphy of science,[39] that have been the subject of controversy.[40][41] --Iantresman (talk) 09:53, 24 October 2013 (UTC)"

and all I find when I logged in tonight were rude messages on my personal page and reams of irrelevant discourse on the talk page. I DO NOT want to read what has been already discussed for the simple reason I would lose the will to live. I asked a perfectly, normal polite question and my question not only hasn't been answered but it's been written over in an extremely rude way....sigh....and people wonder why women don't want to edit on wiki. I've been helping, on here for a number of years....I'm not going anywhere. Mr Sheldrake's page is NOT correct and it's those incorrections I would like to address. Now I could have very easily just re-written what was missing but having been in wiki for this long I know that would have caused a riot, so I came to the 'talk page' to talk about how to improve the article and I have given MORE THAN ONE CURRENT REFERENCE to on-line info, which has been ignored. I'm not here, and neither are any of you, to discuss whether we like, or don't like Mr Sheldrake's views or agree with them in any way. As a writer, you have to write what's true, and I hate to point out that it's TRUE that Mr Sheldrake IS a scientist....and any further comments about 'magical thinking' as if magical thinking were illegal will be ignored. This article is NOT correct. The FACTS are Mr Sheldrake is a Scientist, IS a BIOLOGIST and IS a writer. Full Stop or 'period' as you say in the USA.. Veryscarymary (talk) 20:14, 25 October 2013 (UTC) Veryscarymary (talk) 20:16, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Dr Sheldrake, Mary !!!!! --Roxy the dog (quack quack) 20:24, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The magical thinking/supernatural criticism is well sourced. Sheldrake thinks the laws of nature are mutable. Barney the barney barney (talk) 17:58, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well-sourced does not imply a good source, or a definitive source. Source #1 is a biased opinion piece by John Maddox who appears to be less qualified than Sheldrake, and, Source #2 is a non-peer reviewed website blog which WP:RS considers "questionable". Conversely, all the other references provided that support Sheldrake's description a a bilologist/biochemist, are independent academic or journalistic sources. I doubt "Sheldrake thinks the laws of nature are mutable", any more than all the other scientists who questioned the then-current orthodoxy. --Iantresman (talk) 19:02, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

==Mr Sheldrake is still a Biologist and Scientist, we don't seem to be getting anywhere with this do we???
I have now read the whole history of this page, and it makes for very sorry reading. I have also checked ALL of your wikipedia listings, just to see who actually edits pages, and who just likes to get into fights on talk pages.
If, tomorrow, there is no reply to this message, I will change Mr Sheldrake's listing myself. I have already 'talked' about this here. User:Iantresman has already edited a number of pages, and has made a sensible suggestion to this page, which I would like first to get agreement for.
I think we should keep in mind this:
The method of principled negotiation is based on five propositions:
"Separate the people from the problem."
"Focus on interests, not positions."
"Invent options for mutual gain."
"Insist on using objective criteria."
"Know your BATNA (Best Alternative To Negotiated Agreement)" Getting_to_YES I also don't need anyone's 'permission' to correct an inaccuracy on wikipedia. Wikipedia is a volunteer sourced encyclopedia. It is not a slanging match and from what I have read (and it gave me nightmares) this page has become an open warfare zone. I repeat, the page is inaccurate. It does a LIVING person a dis-service. There is also the question of Libel [[36]] as it stands in UK law at the moment, this page could be referenced as libellous which has a key point of : "lowering someone in the estimation of right-thinking people generally. " http://www.bbc.co.uk/editorialguidelines/page/guidelines-law-defamation/
it doesn't matter a jot what your views are, the qualifications and training and experience of Mr (Dr) Sheldrake are not in doubt, this has been argued about enough already. What needs to happen now, to correct his page is a total of about 20 words or so. The PAGES of comment I've already read have gone NO further to add those 20 words.....which as I say, will be changed tomorrow, by the civilised people that we are:) Veryscarymary (talk) 21:13, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Mary, I bet reading all that stuff about peoples contributions and their talk pages was tiring, just to find out if people like to get into fights. Seems a bit pointless and antagonistic. I'm glad that you appear to have read my small comment above referring to Sheldrake, correctly addressed as Dr. It is incorrect to call him Mr (Dr.) Sheldrake though. As a writer such as you should know. Anyway, now that there has been a reply to your message as requested, there is now no need to edit Sheldrake's page tomorrow. --Roxy the dog (resonate) 21:31, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Your list is pretty decent, Mary, although seems more suited to business negotiations. Currently folks here are stuck on step one, which is to separate Sheldrake the BLP from his (distinct) theories in the fields of phytomorphology, biochemistry, mammalian biology, physics, psychical research aka parapsychology, philosophy-of-science, philosophy-of-mind, theology, and probably a few more I forgot... each field deserving criticism by mainstream thinkers *of* that particular field, obviously. No conflating field_A with field_B, and no synthesis, and no conflating criticism of the theories with criticism of the BLP. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 03:56, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

All editors are invited to comment on How should the mainstream view of "science has become a series of dogmas" be addressed in the lead?

The question is posted HERE. There is a lot of interest in this topic, but so far only three comments that directly address the question. Lou Sander (talk) 12:30, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Stupid page-protection.

Philosopher Martin Cohen, writing in The Times Higher Educational Supplement wrote that "Sheldrake pokes enough holes in such certainties to make this work a valuable contribution, not only to philosophical debates but also to scientific ones, too." although he did note that " a bit too far here and there"[60].

To:

Philosopher Martin Cohen, in The Times Higher Educational Supplement, wrote that "Sheldrake pokes enough holes in such certainties to make this work a valuable contribution, not only to philosophical debates but also to scientific ones," although Cohen did note that Sheldrake went "a bit too far here and there."[60]

Thanks. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 16:12, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Thanks vzaak. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 21:57, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Stupid copy-protection.

In 1996 Sheldrake was prominently cited in Alan Sokal's preposterous paper which became known as the Sokal hoax.[72]

To:

(empty string)

Rationale. Sentence is clearly POV, in the worst way. Zeroth off, the section itself, see below. First off, Sokal was *not* acting as a notable scientist, he was falsely using his credentials as a notable hard scientist (cf Sheldrakes biochem credentials) in order to expose the fact that various psuedo-scientists in the post-modernist-literature portion of academia (no relation whatever to Sheldrake). Second, the lack of any context in this one-sentence snippet is incredibly misleading. For those unfamiliar with Sokal, he is a physicist who hates post-modernist politics-masquerading-as-social-science. To expose the latter group as pretend-scientists, Sokal purposely wrote up a crazy, nutty, anti-scientific screed, prettied it up with 109 footnotes, supported by 182 citations. Sheldrake got two out of 182 cited works, and mention in support of three out of 109 footnotes. Thomas Kuhn got one cited work, but was used in support of two footnotes plus the main body of the text. Other citations were to Bohr, Einstein, Gödel, G.H. Hardy, Heisenberg, and I'm tired of looking so I'll stop at letter-H. Sheldrake must be a genius! Or maybe he belongs with Bourbaki, Derrida, and Feyerabend. Sheldrake must be... whatever those people archetypically represent! The point of the Sokal hoax was that the well-respected post-modernist journal where Sokal submitted his nonsense, called him back and asked him to cut out some of the references and footnotes (to save space in the journal for more advertising perhaps^{[citation needed]}), but never called him on any of his utterly-crazy reasoning. They liked the conclusions, Sokal was a respected authority, they published the paper in their journal. It is a great story.[37][38] It has no bleepity bleep place in this article, unless somebody has an exact quote from Sokal stating that he specifically chose Sheldrake because a) first possibility aka Sheldrake is a genius just like Einstein, or b) second possibility aka Sheldrake was included along with Derrida et al to fool the post-modernists. Anything less, take the sentence out. (No, the current 'citation' which is to a book about the hoax-experiment that Sokal wrote, failing to cite a page number, is not good enough.) 74.192.84.101 (talk) 17:23, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

p.s. Entire section strikes me as definitely POV -- note the section title is "interaction with notable scientists" as distinct from of course "interaction with other scientists" ... when of course the NPOV thing to do would be to move the sentences about Bohm, Durr (another person cited in the Sokal hoax btw), and Wolpert to the existing section about Sheldrake's academic career, where it belongs. You can quibble about whether to split the academic-career section into a pre-Hyderabad sub-section and separately a post-Hyderabad sub-section, or just to separate them by paragraphs. But splitting the stuff into an 'academic career' section and then a separate section called 'interactions with notable scientists after he became a leper to the true scientists' is utter crapola. Please fix. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 17:23, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

you mean things like Sokal explaining his hoax "I was made aware of Sheldrake's bizarre theories" and the other recently added third party sources that note the prominent place that Sheldrake's "morphic fields" play within the Hoax paper? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:24, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that is exactly what is required, methinks: a sentence written in *seriousness* by Sokal (i.e. not from the hoax-paper), with a page-number. But what is the page-number for your cite? (Aside: I hate google books. Not only does it not give page-numbers, it hides the page you are trying to see.) Here are the quotes that seemed relevant, but I don't have the page-numbers, for reasons previously mentioned. I'm also not sure which of these sentences are Sokal being serious, and which of them are Sokal making things up to spoof the post-modernists, and in fact whether these are even Sokal, and not him quoting somebody else (with the exception of the "Ross cites" bit which is clearly a quote-of-somebody-else).

...there is no evidence that 'morphogenetic fields' (in Sheldrake's sense) actually exist... Rupert Sheldrake's theory of 'morphogenetic fields', though popular in New Age circles, hardly qualifies as 'in general sound'. To call it 'occassionally speculative' is a massive understatement.(see note#77)... note#77. Biologist Rupert Sheldrake posits that there exists an as-yet-undiscovered 'subquantum' interaction linking 'patterns' throughout the universe. ...Ross^[who?] cites approvingly Rupert Sheldrake's eccentric notion of "morphogenetic fields... operating on a subquantum level, linking every pattern in the universe".

Can somebody please provide some useful *complete* source-info which gives a page, and gives something Sokal says, which is most-definitely-not from the hoax-section, but rather from the serious-explanation section. Thanks. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 21:33, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Prominently cited" refers to the section of Sokal's paper "Quantum Gravity: String, Weave or Morphogenetic Field?"[39], the several mentions of him in the footnotes, and the citations. vzaak (talk) 18:42, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't take long to create an account. Sokal affair is relevant. I bet you can pick something else to have a frivolous moan about though. Barney the barney barney (talk) 20:05, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ignoring all the ranting by 74, I feel that being referenced in the hoax really doesn't say much. There are a lot of good papers referenced along with Sheldrake. The ancillary references make it clear that Sokal has a low opinion of Sheldrake's work, which might just be mentionable. I think the sentence should be removed, but I don't care all that much. Dingo1729 (talk) 20:33, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ahh, wikipedia, where editors collaborate and are WP:NICE. Vzaak, yes, that's the hoax-paper, which has 'several' mentions of Sheldrake. Read what I wrote before: counts are relative. More crucially, *being* in the paper puts you in great company, or terrible company, depending on which side your work falls. Wikipedia editors cannot synthesize assumptions here; citation needed. However, the title of the paper does not include morphogenetic -- the title is "Transgressing the Boundaries: Towards a Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity" as you will see from the link you provided... which, of course, I also provided. And skimmed before providing it <grin> to count how many mention Sheldrake warranted compared to others, plus read it in full back in the day, the previous millenium now for all you kiddies lurking in the talkpage shadows, when it came out. The thing you mention is one word from the subtitle of one section of the hoax-paper:

1. Intro (untitled). Einstein.
2. Quantum Mechanics: Uncertainty, Complementarity, Discontinuity and Interconnectedness. Einstein.
3. Hermeneutics of Classical General Relativity. Einstein.
4. Quantum Gravity: String, Weave or Morphogenetic Field? Einstein, plus "biologist" (referring to Sheldrake but not by name... of course, if we count all uses of 'relativity' Einstein scores higher)
5. Differential Topology and Homology. Kuhn.
6. Manifold Theory: (W)holes and Boundaries.
7. Transgressing the Boundaries: Towards a Liberatory Science.

So from that alone, Sokal's hoax-paper relies on Sheldrake (in the morpho section) about as much as it relies on Kuhn (in the homology-section), and relies considerably less on either than it does on Einstein (who is mentioned by name six times in the morpho section alone plus dozens of times elsewhere). Point being, the sentence in the article cherrypicks Sheldrake from the hoax-article, and is utterly POV, and nasty dishonest POV at that. If you feel the need to give Sheldrake a nasty dishonest smackdown, do it on your own blog, not on wikipedia. Just the facts please, NPOV, WP:BLP, all that jazz. And yes, except for considering myself to rant (I prefer the far more dignified WP:WALLOFTEXT as indicative of my sure-fire ability to stay fully within policy guidelines -- they even named one after my style of editing), I agree fully with Dingo1729. If we do use an ancillary ref in the article about a BLP, it needs a page-number, and no synthesizing adjectives out of nowhere. Thanks for improving wikipedia. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 21:33, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Nasty dishonest POV" and "nasty dishonest smackdown"--those are, IMHO, well-turned phrases, and well-applied to much of what goes on here. Lou Sander (talk) 21:43, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, if that is true, then, whomsoever is responsible for trying to make WP:BLP articles and WP:BLPTALK pages into their personal POV playground, might I strongly suggest please take a cold shower, look at themselves in the mirror, and decide whether they care more about wikipedia servers being shut down indefinitely, or more about WP:RGW. I show up on the page for the first time, and have to get somebody else to fix the obvious grammar-check-fail because the page is indefinitely censored... and it looks like the sockpuppet you banned last time was in fact WP:AGF. Disruptive, sure, edit-warring, sure, but were they correct on the merits? Look at the edit-summary.[40] Try and think long-term, here, folks. This is not junior high. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 21:54, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, some improvement.

Thanks to TheRedPenOfDoom.[41]

SectionTitle: Interaction With Notable Scientists. BodyText: In 1996 Sheldrake' morphic field featured prominently in Alan Sokal's preposterous paper which became known as the Sokal hoax.^[2][3][4]

But hey, we were pointed in the right direction by Berube-n-Brub. We can get an exact read on Sokal's opinion of Sheldrake's work from the book Fashionable Nonsense on page 262 in fact: Sheldrake's theory of "morphogenetic fields", though popular in New Age circles, hardly qualifies as "in general sound". This is from Sokal's (serious) subsection titled Quantum Mechanics, and is a reference to footnote#27 in the hoax-paper which purposely-incorrectly-characterized Sheldrake's 1981 book as "occasionally speculative [but] in general sound". So at the end of the day, if we want Sokal's opinion on Sheldrake's stil-speculative theory -- even Sheldrake agrees about this fact btw -- concerning the possibility of subquantum interactions that could someday explain why legume crops of a specific species invariably take on a particular shape, we have got it. Sokal's view is, that the portion of Sheldrake's morphogenetic theory related to quantum physics, hardly qualifies as generally sound. And not only is that neutral, it is also NPOV.

Famous physicist Roger Penrose, peer of Stephen Hawking, respected yada yada yada, also has a theory that can only be characterized as sub-quantum, and speculative. Penrose admits it. There is no controversy. Sheldrake's credentials in terms of being a physicist are no match for Penrose's of course, any more than Penrose's credentials as a biochemist are a match for Sheldrake. Penrose has a BLP here on wikipedia, too. The controversy over his yet-to-be-experimentally-detected-quantum-consciousness stuff takes up about as much space as his work in 4D physics and such... but it's not *too* out of whack. People having trouble here, maintaining NPOV without taking cold showers constantly, should stop in at the following articles: Roger_Penrose, The_Emperor's_New_Mind 1989, Shadows_of_the_Mind 1994, and The_Large,_the_Small_and_the_Human_Mind 1997. Penrose is a super-genius. I argued (virtually) with him over the 1989 book, and decided that I had 'won' the argument, and Penrose was probably wrong. But I did not *prove* him wrong... that will take physicists and biophysicists years and years of work, maybe forever. The only way to prove Penrose wrong is to either build a computer with Strong AI, or to discover the actual mechanism of consciousness, and show that it is something other than the collapse of the quantum wave-function. Similarly, the only way to *prove* Sheldrake wrong is to discover the actual mechanism of plant morphology, and show -- indisputably rather than by handwaving -- that your mechanism is not just another name for the morphogenetic fields. While they do not have similar credentials, both Penrose and Sheldrake have something in common: they have published popular books, with speculative theories, about *unsolved* problems in science. The mechanism of consciousness for Penrose, and the mechanism of bio-morphology for Sheldrake.

Here's something NPOV.

(empty string)

If you cannot stomach that blankness... which, for those of you holding your stomachs, the fact that you are unable to stomach the removal of unsourced information which synthesizes adjectives that defame a BLP, should give you a very strong clue that you are not editing this article neutrally and objectively... if you cannot stomach that, then perhaps this is permissible, while remaining fully NPOV.

SubSectionTitle: Academic Career. BodyText: (same as what is already in that section now -- up through the 1990s where this is inserted.) In 1996,[1][2][3] Sheldrake's 1981 and 1991 works on his morphic field theory, along with a preposterous admixture of famous scientists like Einstein with famous post-modernists like Derrida, was prominently featured in the third section of Alan Sokal's purposely-falsified hoax-paper. The hoax-paper was written explicitly^{[citation needed]} as an experiment to criticize sloppy science, in particular post-modernist sans-peer-review social science. Years later, on page 262 of his book Fantastic Nonsense detailing the hoax, Sokal gave the following serious explanation of his position on morphogenetic fields, in the subsection called Quantum Gravity: "Sheldrake's theory of 'morphogenetic fields', though popular in New Age circles, hardly qualifies as 'in general sound'."

Seems fair. Anybody have complaints about that version? Preferably, complaints that survive the taking of a cold shower? If you want to have a sentence, or a sentence fragment, about *why* Sheldrake was picked for the hoax-article, then feel free to present it. With a page number, from a reliable independent source, or preferably, from Sokal himself. No cherrypicking, no paraphrasing, no WP:UNDUE, please.

Hope this is getting through. We're moving in the right direction, and we *do* now have a solid quote, with a page-number, that actually says what Sokal thinks of Sheldrake's work in *seriousness*. Thanks. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 00:45, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No mention in the article (at the moment -- I didn't check the edit-history) of what year Sheldrake became an undergrad, grad student, and postdoctoral researcher... what were the durations of these efforts? Is there overlap between his post-doc research, and his 1967-1973 biochem work? Was he a professor/TA/RA, or what exactly? Statistically, if he was born in 1942 he prolly was undergrad from 1960-1963, grad from 1964-1968, and postdoc for 1969-1971, but such assumptions are not what wikipedia should depend on. Presumably somebody here already knows the answers. Please fix the intro-paragraphs to reflect the years of university as a student ("After N years of college, from 1967 to...") which led up to his biochem jobs -- and specify what position slash title he held where appropriate. Most of the details should go into the early-life-and-education section, of course. What year (frosh/sophomore/postdoc/YYYY) did he get the fellowship to Harvard? Thanks 74.192.84.101 (talk) 17:39, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I added a reference to a confirmatory study from the Journal of Consciousness Studies and cited it. From my reading of the Wikipedia page on reliable references, the JCS meets the criteria for a first-tier source (a peer-reviewed journal with prominent academics on the editorial and advisory boards). My reference was removed; whereas references to disconfirmatory reports from second-tier sources (i.e., magazines; Viz. Scientific American, Skeptical Inquirer) are allowed to remain. This to my mind creates the appearance of bias. I suggest my addition be reinstated. User:Blacksqr

I've reinstated the reference as it's clearly relevant. Please do not remove again until discussing here first. Alfonzo Green (talk) 21:10, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Alfonzo: I appreciate the quick action, you reinstated the right reference but attached it to the wrong text in the article. You restored my edit to the Seven Experiments and Dogs That Know section, which I didn't request, rather than my edit to the Sense of Being Stared At section, to which the reference belongs. So right now, the restored edit cites the wrong reference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Blacksqr (talk • contribs) 21:27, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Do not edit war. If someone is reverted for an addition, they must seek consensus to include it, IRWolfie- (talk) 09:23, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've seen the "there may well be something going on" Wiseman quote before, and it's just out of context. Wiseman is talking about issues with the experiments themselves. He goes on about Sheldrake, "I think as is so much of his work, it’s very easy to look at it and go, yeah, a priori, that looks like there’s a cased something there, but things need to be done with a little bit more rigor and in this instance, that hasn’t happened." vzaak (talk) 22:15, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am not asking for that text to be restored. Alonzo appears to have done so in error. I am suggesting that the mention of the meta-analysis for the staring experiments published in JCS be restored. Blacksqr (talk) 22:49, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There's an archive thread about Radin. Generally speaking, Wikipedia doesn't promote fringe views, as reflected in policies like WP:REDFLAG and WP:GEVAL. My own take may or may not be helpful. I've placed the policy header more prominently at the top of this talk page. vzaak (talk) 23:33, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Restored the Radin reference to the Sense of Being Stared At discussion as well as the Wiseman reference to the section on Dogs That Know. In both cases, the previous version included only negative responses to Sheldrake's work despite the fact that actual responses have been mixed. Wiseman, incidentally, though in disagreement with Sheldrake, is careful to point out that his experiment replicated Sheldrake's results and that Sheldrake is a "competent scientist." Alfonzo Green (talk) 06:08, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There is a neutrality notice on the article. It seems to be valid. Someone removed it, IMHO, before the "dispute was resolved."

Part of the dispute arises because some editors seem to want this to be a neutral BLP, while others seem to want to include negative material at every turn. It is made worse by some editors routinely disregarding the views of others, giving the appearance that they think they are the owners of the article.

There are also disputes over the suitability of some of the references provided, and even over the unchallenged facts of Sheldrake's scientific qualifications.

Resolution of the disputes is greatly hindered by the tendency of some editors to be sarcastic, argumentative, and unwilling to consider the viewpoints of others.

Things seem to be getting better, but the disputes remain. Lou Sander (talk) 13:29, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The notice has been going on and off like a traffic light for the last 6 weeks Lou. I've not been counting, but it has probably been a dozen times. It seems quite meaningless now. I agree with you however that editors tending to be "sarcastic, argumentative, and unwilling to consider the viewpoints of others" don't help. Woolly thinkers don't help much either, and canvassing them really doesn't help. Ah well, I suppose it is all part of life's rich tapestry. --Roxy the dog (quack quack) 14:06, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It will always be the case that some editors routinely disregard the views of others, and disputes are always likely to remain. Sarcasm and insults betray a lack of impartiality by editors but few editors are impartial - for the neutrality of the article content to be in dispute someone needs to be specific and make a case for where (exactly) the content is being negatively affected by lack of neutrality. Talk page sarcasm is a problem, but not a justification for tagging the article. Tento2 (talk) 14:43, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think anyone has raised any serious objections in terms of policies and guidelines. The overall consensus is that these apply. Tumbleman (talk · contribs) thought that the page should have a special exception from WP:FRINGE. Others appear to simply not understand the policies and guidelines. Barney the barney barney (talk) 15:35, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Please do elaborate, Barney, on which guidelines I've missed (or whoever you are vaguely talking about). I note that you hedge, and say no serious objections, and overall consensus. I definitely think this page deserves no exception from WP:FRINGE. But are you positive nobody here thinks this page is a special exception to WP:BLP and WP:BLPTALK? Cause to an outsider, it is a big fail on WP:NPOV. I know you are trying to keep wikipedia from being used as a vehicle to promote fringe theories as mainstream, and I thank you for you vigilance, but there is a difference between documenting a promoting, and a *very* big very crucial *legal* difference between neutrally portraying a scientist, and noting that their recent work is highly controversial, as distinct from gaming the system and using wikipedia as a hammer to debunk their views and destroy their credibility. Misuse of wikipedia to promote fringe views (Justin Bieber is the best musical artist of all time) will harm wikipedia's perceived reliability; but misuse of wikipedia to attack BLP subjects (Sheldrake is not really a scientist) will harm the wikimedia foundation's ability to continue to serve webpages in the state of Florida. The stakes are *very* high on this article, and we need to do it right. The current state is blatantly POV, and needs to be corrected, post-haste. What are your particular policy objections to fixing the page to be NPOV and satisfy BLP guidelines, plus just human decency and fairness, while *simultaneously* still keeping wikipedia well away from promoting WP:FRINGE as if it were mainstream, and from WP:SPIP, and similar pitfalls? Are you saying we have to pick WP:FRINGE *or* WP:BLP? Then I pick the latter, the consequences are too fatal to wikipedia's long-term viability. I'm saying we can do both, and moreover, it is not that hard. Where specifically am I wrongheaded? Thanks 74.192.84.101 (talk) 17:40, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The tag should NOT be removed until a consensus has been reached, if you dont believe there is a neutrality issue that is not a reason to remove the tag when others do♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 20:06, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Consensus is that WP:FRINGE and WP:NPOV apply to Wikipedia articles. Some individuals who have written on this talk page are fans of Sheldrake's work and are seemingly incapable of accepting that community consensus. No serious objections have been made with reference to policy. Barney the barney barney (talk) 20:34, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Some individuals think weasel words are seemingly great! Plus, besides the vague accusations of bad faith (WP:AGF), again with the hedging about serious objections. The policy-reference is WP:BLP. "This page in a nutshell: Material about living persons added to any Wikipedia page must be written with the greatest care and attention to verifiability, neutrality, and avoidance of original research." Emphasis added. That is the most serious kind of objection possible: if we screw up, and the article leads to WMF being the recipient of a successful defamation lawsuit, then our screw-up just killed wikipedia. That is the *definition* of serious, here in the wikiverse, is it not? Is your position that WP:FRINGE trumps WP:BLP, and that the current article *is* The NPOV Consensus, as clearly evidenced by the calm and quite debate here on the talkpage, discussing minor grammatical estoterics like whether the past second-person participle is the best way to clarify some tricky sentence, or if it should be just rewritten in third-person? Please. The cold shower. The balance of various goals. If your only goal is to smackdown Sheldrake as WP:FRINGE, then you are not helping wikipedia be more reliable, you are turning wikipedia into a non-neutral battleground, and while that is a mistake on *any* article, it is a trememdous existential risk on a BLP article, that can have very real-world consequences. Help me out here, I'm trying to work with you to improve the article, which is a basket-case right now, page-protected and the cause of edit-wars, not The Long Established Consensus Of All Right-Thinking People. That we are having this conversation, and that you and Tom are trading threats to call an admin, is as much evidence as you should need. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 21:25, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

When I say consensus, Barney, I am talking about consensus on this article not on FRINGE and NPOV policies on wikipedia generally. I dont believe anybody who didnt believe NPOV applies to all articles would apply the tag to this article, it is here because there is a lack of consensus about NPOV on THIS article. As for FRINGE, this policy is Wikipedia:Fringe theories, Sheldrake isnt a theory, he is an individual, and so this is the article to give prominence to his theories as and only as his theories, whether wikipedia considers these theories fringe or not. His notability is not dependent on the scientific veracity of his theories. Personally I dont think anyone should ever IMMEDIATELY remove a neutrality tag unless they have in the meantime made clear efforts to address the neutrality issues of the eprson who posts the tag, bit like having your cake and eating it. ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 22:06, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hello squeakbox, my understanding is that Barney does think the current state of the article is The Consensus, despite the talkpage, and tag-warring. Barney, please correct me if I am wrong in that assessment. And yes, squeakbox is 100% correct about the tag: nobody should remove it, until talkpage-consensus about neutrality is achieved. There are currently open discussions on the neutrality of the intro, the neutrality of the academic-career section, the neutrality of the interactions-section, the neutrality of the public-speaking section... and I doubt those are it, those are just the current disputes. Ignoring the disputes is *not* the same as having consensus, but is in fact behavior bordering on WP:IDHT. Obviously, there is no WP:DEADLINE, but please skim over the four or five disputes about neutrality currently visible here... there is no way the *article* as it currently stands is The Consensus. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 00:57, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    Squeakbox, I'm not sure I agree with one part you mentioned in the middle: "Sheldrake isnt a theory, he is an individual, and so this is the article to give prominence to his theories as and only as his theories." Apparently, there is a long-running dispute about whether to split the BLP from the MorphogeneticTheory article, but it was always a fail before, and is an apparently-very-controversial suggestion, although it makes perfect sense to me (sheldrake is notable as a controversial author... morphogenetics is notable as the subject-matter of a series of controversial books). If you want to propose a split in twain, I would support such a thing as prima facie a good thing, but maybe we should let User:TheRedPenOfDoom comment here, because I believe they know the history of arguments about splitting the article into a BLP-article and a distinct theory-article. I suspect the roadblock has to do with folks resisting giving a speculative theory that is WP:FRINGE an article devoted to itself. Anyhoo, appreciated your calm advice, thanks for improving wikipedia. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 00:57, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No i do not know anything about the history of these articles other than the past month or so. What I do know is that i have seen no evidence that Sheldrake is notable outside of the coverage of his morphic fields and that morphic fields have no coverage outside of Sheldrake. Hence to split them would be to cover the same thing in two articles. Any proposal to shunt the morphic fields and the criticism thereof off to a different article and leave the Sheldrake article void of any criticism is a WP:POVFORK and thus a non-starter. If the article were overly long, spinning out a daughter article would be an option, but the article is well within the standard parameters.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 01:07, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I too do not believe that Sheldrake's morphic fields deserve their own articles - although (some of) his books might not fail WP:AFD and perhaps Jaytee (dog) might not too. Meanwhile, a problem with trying to explain things that are not inherently coherent, is that they cannot be coherently explained. Also, while it appears that Sheldrake's ideas are not dissimilar to previous ideas, unless a serious sociologist of science writes a paper giving a full background analysis, writing about these influences is sailing a little close to the WP:NOR wind. Barney the barney barney (talk) 18:37, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am fine to not have a separate article on morphic fields, which would have the issue of being a fringe theory. On the other hand Sheldrake seems to be thoroughly notable as a New age thinker, and has been for at least 20 yrs or more. We need to stop treating him as a possible scientist and start thinking of him as a new age thinker. Wikipedia is not a scientific encyclopeida but an encyclopedia which strives to cover all notable fields, and the New Age and its thinking is certainly a notable field for coverage, hence we have an article on Sheldrake♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 19:05, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Tento2 -- how about I see you that lack of neutrality, and raise you an anti-defamation? (Preceding sentence is a poker reference. If it makes no sense, please just ignore it.)

The intro-sentence is POV, exactly because it refuses to call Sheldrake a scientist/biologist/biochemist/physiologist/etc, and instead calls him only a parapsychologist, and makes no mention of his academic credentials. This is blatantly defamatory; contrast with Roger Penrose, which has no such neutrality problems.

"Barney wrote: The opening sentence needs to explain WHY he's in the encyclopedia." I fully agree. He is in the encyclopedia, because he promotes controversial subquantum theories, and has the academic credentials to back that up. He's not a hollywood celeb, sports star, teevee evangelist, politician, industrialist. He's a scientist. That is why he's in the encyclopedia: as a scientist, who promotes scientifically-controversial theories. Current sentence which lacks neutrality (character defamation), and furthermore fails to explain the real reason (good scientist-credentials) Sheldrake is an especially-notable parapsychologist:

Sheldrake (1942-) is an English author, lecturer, and parapsychologist.

Rewrite, which is more NPOV, and which does fully explain why Sheldrake is WP:N.

Sheldrake (1942-) is an English biochemist-and-now-parapsychologist, notable as a controversial author/lecturer.

Cites (which of course will be added back later) and BLP boilerplate (ditto) elided, for clarity of discussion. Sorry about the grammatically awkward sci-and-now-para. If anybody else can capture the essence, please feel free. Note that instead saying 'former' is POV, and saying 'turned' is especially POV, making Sheldrake sound like some kind of vampire-scientist. But the worst sort of POV -- the kind which violates WP:BLP and leads to defamation lawsuits against WMF -- is exactly what we have in the article now, an intro-sentence that completely obliterates the fact that Sheldrake is a scientist, with a PhD, from top-notch schools, and a decade of work in mainstream academia. Nothing says NPOV like cherrypicking how your opponent is labelled, right? There's more that needs fixing, see my fuller comment above somewheres, but let's try going one sentence at a time, in this subsection. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 18:04, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Although I don't think the existing comment is lacking neutrality (you have to assume an agenda to play down his scientific credentials), I prefer the rewrite you've suggested. It is important to highlight the reason for his notability and I agree with you - it is to do with the controversial nature of his work, and the reason it is controversial is because he has a background in biochemistry. Tento2 (talk) 18:48, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I appreciate your commentary. And might I say, since you prefer my rewrite, that must prove you are good-looking, highly-intelligent, and doubtless rich and powerful... perhaps we can form a cabal? (For those of you just joining, the previous sentence is a humourous attempt at levity, which not everyone here will find witty, nor filled with helium... the remainder is serious.)

    As for where we disagree, namely on whether the exclusion of Sheldrake's status as a scientist is quite purposely left out of the first sentence, we can easily see whether there is "an agenda to play down Sheldrake's scientific credentials" (although I'd *much* prefer to call it what it more likely is -- overzealous application of inapplicable policies like WP:PROF) which is also just known as failing to follow WP:NPOV.... I suggest putting the revised sentence into the article, and see whether it is reverted, and if so how fast, and by whom. Since the article has banned good-faith edits by anons, are you willing to put the revised sentence in, if I do the work to add in the sources? Or we can wait for more comments. And look, in fact, there seems to be a new section just below, discussing whether the U.Cambridge PhD and Harvard fellowship are in fact worthy and impressive and utterly impeccably respectable scientific credentials or not. Whatever you decide on the question of modifying the article to insert this revision, as a WP:BRD experiment, thanks for reading and replying. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You are only right on three of the points you made about me. Re your proposal - I might have been,but I'm more inclined towards the suggestion Dingo just made, so I'm interested in hearing the response of other editors to his post. Tento2 (talk) 11:10, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There seems to be a long-running low level battle over Sheldrake's academic credentials. It's all about wording, but it would be good to get agreement at some basic level. Sheldrake gained a PhD in biochemistry, did post-doctoral research at Cambridge and was a research fellow at Clare College. That is a respectable, but not brilliant academic career. He wasn't a university lecturer, or in American terms an assistant professor, and wasn't tenured or on a tenure track. So he isn't in the same league as Roger Penrose, David Bohm or Hans-Peter Dürr for example. There have been attempts to cherry-pick quotes about "outstanding scientist" or down-play his credentials because he dropped out of academia. So Respectable but not Brilliant. Try to keep a balance. Dingo1729 (talk) 18:29, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand. As an engineer, I interfaced with research and industrial scientists that were brilliant. There is much to the saying that those who can, do, and the rest teach, so being academic is not a valid measure of notability in my view. In fact, Sheldrake is one of the most respected scientists in the study of frontier subjects. Few in the study of subtle energy phenomena have been able to think so far beyond the current wisdoms of academia.

If editors here are both offended by his hypotheses and unimpressed by his credentials, then it is no wonder the article is biased. Do not think of him as an academic ... to most of us, the measure of a scientist is what he or she does and not what they teach in some university.

It is also a good idea to note my comment about how well he is respected. This article can be a catalyst for a very strong anti-Wikipedia pushback. So please, if it cannot be respectful, at least make the article a little more neutral.Tom Butler (talk) 18:55, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Dingo1729 (talk · contribs) makes a very good point; and then it's blown totally out of the water by Tom Butler (talk · contribs)'s inanity. Please let's not get into an argument about credentials because everyone apart from Sheldrake's fans can see that he had an academic career that didn't last long enough for him to get to professor level. Barney the barney barney (talk) 19:09, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Be careful Barney! Measuring his worth by his academic standing is part of the bias we are talking about. I am sorry you are so focused on making him look like a fool to see that. I am going to restore the tag. My nest stop is an admin complain. Tom Butler (talk) 19:22, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I was merely echoing Dingo1729 (talk · contribs)'s point. Sheldrake's career while it lasted was OK. He doesn't meet the criteria in WP:PROF, and cannot therefore be compared to those who do, because he didn't gain enough seniority. He went freelance, as it were. The only bias, btw, is calling him "the most respected frontier scientist". There is in the article several sources from academics that indicate specific problems with Sheldrake's proposals. You are also reminded of WP:ARB/PS. Barney the barney barney (talk) 19:40, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Dingo1729, I agree his academic career is Respectable not Brilliant... albeit for a post-doc at a top-ten-in-the-world university! That is a very small set of people. But yes, he is way outclassed by Penrose, of course. The reason I bring up Penrose is because both are from U.Cambridge, both are PhD, both have published popular books about their own personal subquantum theories which are admittedly controversial, and yet the BLP of Penrose is quite fair to my eyes, whereas the BLP of Sheldrake is blatantly unfair, labelling him a parapsychologist and incorrectly therefore stripping him of his credentials, which belong in the first sentence, per my reasoning in the section above. As for the he-was-not-a-professor thing, was Sheldrake the equivalent of the american's Research Assistant, i.e. the focus was all on lab work and writing papers? Then the relevant criteria is not whether he taught undergrads, but how many peer-reviewed papers he published. Does somebody have a count? However, at one point I gained the impression that Sheldrake did perform teaching-duties, and was some kind of professor, at least some of his time in grad-school or post-grad-school or whatever... did he never act as a Teaching Assistant, in charge of classroom tutorials for some section of a larger class (taught by a full tenured prof), and grade papers and tests and such? I'm not really familiar with U.Cambridge procedures, and nobody seemed to have the answers to my earlier question about when exactly Sheldrake was a post-doc, and so on. Thanks. p.s. was he fellow at Clare, too? or was that a typo and you meant Harvard? 74.192.84.101 (talk) 20:55, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sheldrake's bio [[42]] says he was a fellow of Clare College, and I have no reason to disbelieve him, though he would probably be a junior research fellow at that stage of his career. He might have been like a research assistant some of the time he was doing his PhD, but he would choose his own research post-doctorate. Cambridge does small-group tutorials (which they call supervisions). 1,2,3 or 4 students to a supervisor. Supervisors may be anyone from junior graduate students to distinguished professors. This is all organized by "directors of studies" and Sheldrake was a director of studies; almost certainly he was also a supervisor (T.A. equivalent?), but I haven't seen any mention of it. There's no grading of papers or tests; everything depends on final exams. Dingo1729 (talk) 21:41, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The link you mention might be valid for some WP:ABOUTSELF stuff, but anything related to academic-credentials would need an independent WP:RS of course, so everything after this point is ^{[citation needed]}. Below are the claims, numbered for ease of discussion. Thanks for the explanation of UCambridge, appreciated. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 23:41, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Revised the list with some dates and sources. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 05:04, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

1. became an atheist at age 13 circa 1955-or-1956 via boarding school[43]
2. got a job at 17 circa 1959-or-1960 in the pharmacology research lab of Parke-Davis in London, just before UCambridge
3. Cambridge University student at 17-or-maybe-18 in 1959-or-1960 , undergrad science scholarship
4. Frank Knox Fellow at Harvard in 1963, taking a year off from UCambridge, read Kuhn [44]
5. UCambridge PhD in biochem began 1964 and awarded YYYY, started a teaching-position in 1967 which officially lasted through 1974 (six years more in the teaching-job to achieve lectureship)[45]
6. UMalaya BotanyDept 1968-1969, as a Rosenheim Research Fellow (scholarship-slash-grant) of the Royal Society (still officially in UCambridge Biochem), spent two months in India enroute[46]
7. started practicing meditation in 1969 [47]
8. Principal Plant Physiologist slash Consulting Physiologist at ICRISAT in Hyderabad, 1974-1985, which contradicts the wiki-article's claim of 1978...
9. prolly 1974-1978 principal
10. and 1979-1985 consulting, the change in title due to taking the 18 months to write the 1981 book.
11. Dir. of Perrott-Warrick Project, funded from Trinity College in Cambridge, 2005-2010. (David-in-DC wrote a sentence about this which sounds NPOV to me, pointing out the cash was money from an earmarked bequest.)

1. 80 scientific papers (does not say how many in mainstream peer-reviewed scientific journals),
2. "where [as a student at Cambridge U methinks?] he was a Scholar of Clare College",
3. awarded the [Cambridge] University Botany Prize^[when?],
4. Fellow of Clare^[when?] and Dir.Studies in biochem^[when?] & cellbio^[when?],
5. There is also something about "took a double first class honours degree" which is inscrutable to my ears... hs degree, undergrad, grad, phd, something else entirely, care to translate?
6. Also mentions these, which I've never heard of before: Fellow^[when?] of Inst. of Noetic Sciences in CA,
7. Visiting Prof^[when?] & Academic Dir.^[when?] of Holistic Thinking Program at the Graduate Inst. in CT aka LearnDotEdu. (Maybe the 'professor' that I was remembering reading here somewhere on the talkpage is from that CT position -- which although I've never heard of it does have .edu indicating *some* level of reasonable respectability -- rather than from his days as a TA-slash-SupervisorWhileDirectorOfStudies.)

Any way you slice it, the man had a 20-year career as a mainstream scientist/biologist/physiologist/biochemist/cellbiologist/etc, enough to retire if he was a marine, and all those war-medals, err sorry, fellowships (if confirmed by WP:RS) would cause me to upgrade him from Respectable to something like Highly Respectable, depending on how many of the 80 papers that he says he published were between 1960 and 1980. That's not even counting his five-year Trinity College grant, his LearnDotEdu professorship, his invited lectures at a couple dozen major universities since 2008, and the rest of his post-1980 academic credentials. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 23:41, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Tom, do not threaten editors you will complain to an admin. Work it out civilly. Be WP:NICE, this is not a WP:BATTLEGROUND. Now, on the article, if you want to say that Sheldrake is one of the most respected scientists in the study of frontier subjects, you have to cite a reliable source. That is exactly the sort of thing that Dingo1729 is cautioning us about. Getting a biochem Phd from U.Cambridge is very impressive, but that does not automatically translate into "Best.Scientist.Evah." Citation needed. As for your meta-reasoning, that in your opinion academic-creds shouldn't matter... in some things they do, in some things they don't. The morph theory is a theory of physics, and academic-creds are what separates the galileo-with-a-blog from the Roger Penrose. Sheldrake is nowhere near Penrose in physics credentials, and Penrose is not as good as Sheldrake in biochem credentials, but both of them are wayyyy beyond the random blogger handwaving about quantum electrodynamics. Which, as I keep pointing out, is fundamentally why Sheldrake is here on wikipedia. His academic career was not breathtakingly brilliant... if he had solved the mechanism of plant morphology, then believe me, he would be a *very* famous biologist, on the tier right below Darwin probably. Instead, Sheldrake failed to be breathtakingly brilliant using traditional biochem, and instead hypothesized that there must be some not-yet-experimentally-detected mechanism which will someday explain plant morphology, and gained notability (and not a little notoriety) by publishing popular books about such ideas. Penrose by contrast *was* a brilliant mathematical physicist, on the tier right below Einstein and Hawking and so on, in my book... but if Penrose had managed the uber-breathtaking brilliance to discover the mechanism of consciousness, he would be considerably more famous than Einstein, and you and I would not need to be spending time improving wikipedia -- because wikipedia would be sentient, and improving herself, at computer speeds. In some ways I'm sorry Penrose failed, but in other ways, not so sorry.  :-) Be that as it may, you may need a cold shower, so that you can look on Sheldrake with some objectivity, or at least, provide some reliable sources saying that he really is Best.Scientist.Evah. Wikipedia does not care about popularity, unless that popularity is documented in reliable sources, as you know. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 20:55, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Barney, you are making a personal attack when you call somebody else "inane". Stop. Just disagree civilly, and point out flaws in the argument. May I also sweetly and innocently inquire as to what you intended by your stern reminder of ArbCom? Surely you would not be threatening to ban someone you disagree with; even if they did it first, two wrongs do not make three lefts. As for your claim that Sheldrake 'had' an academic career (implying it is now over and he is no longer a scientist), and your later comment that "while it lasted" his career was okay... by which I assume you mean, okay-for-a-UCambridge-PhD-biochemist-with-a-harvard-fellowship ... perhaps like Tom you also need a nice cold shower? I agree that Sheldrake does not meet WP:PROF, but as has been pointed out to you several times before, that is a notability-criteria for article creation. Sheldrake is *both* someone with okay-for-a-UCambridge-PhD-biochemist-with-a-harvard-fellowship scientific credentials, and simultaneously someone who is WP:N as a controversial author/lecturer. Do you disagree, and if so, please paste in the specific policy-sentence which says we must not call Sheldrake a scientist in the first sentence, merely because his current notability does not derive solely from his scientific career. We also mention that Sheldrake has a wife, but surely *that* is not why he has an article in wikipedia, see WP:MARRIEDTOSOMEONENOTSUFFICIENT. Do you suggest we delete the wife, as not WP:NOTEWORTHY, and delete the scientist portion of the first sentence, as not WP:NOTEWORTHY? That is not what WP:PROF says. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 20:55, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Good advice 74.192.84.101. Even so, at some point, it might be helpful for a more formal settlement on the interpretation of the WP:ARB/PS line: "18) Alternative theoretical formulations which have a following within the scientific community are not pseudoscience, but part of the scientific process." [48]. When I was around that discussion and the Fringe Science and Paranormal arbitrations, my sense was that the admins had were trying to find a way to deal with this kind of article in a more neutral way. There was also a more "conditional" allowance acceptable for what are acceptable sources while here, it is mainstream or nothing. We can settle that here if the contentious sniping is set aside and people stop stonewalling efforts to build a consensus. Tom Butler (talk) 22:47, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Tom, BE WP:NICE.  :-)     If you really want to encourage people to work together, accusing Vague Other Parties of being guilty of stonewalling/sniping/etc is Not The Way To Do It.... the cold shower *is* the way, I swear, I have a reliable source proving cold showers increase objectivity, I will post it RealSoonNow. Plus, please call me 74, which is a lot easier to type, not to mention read. The line#18 from arbcom is talking about alternative-mainstream-formulations, not about Sheldrake's work. Like the Penrose stuff about subquantum consciousness, which Penrose fully admits is speculative, the Sheldrake stuff about subquantum morphological-signalling is speculative. Neither one has evidence, accepted by mainstream scientists... heck, the reason that both Sheldrake and Penrose went for the subquantum is that they *tried* using mainstream science, but failed. No, no, Sheldrake and Penrose (at least their subquantum work as opposed to Penrose's mainstream 4-D mathematics work and Sheldrake's mainstream bio-uptake work) are 100% positively WP:FRINGE. I'm willing to bet even Sheldrake does not claim morphogenetics is fully proven cold hard fact -- that is why he wants to loosen up the dogmatic-folks-in-science, so that he can shake loose funding to investigate the subquantum, right? We simply cannot know whether Sheldrake is right or wrong, until we have *discovered* the actual mechanism of plant morphology, which is billions or trillions of dollars of R&D from now. Anyways, maybe there is evidence from top-notch sources, but in my mind Sheldrake's speculative science requires those top-notch sources, for good reason. The Institute Of Parapsychology (made up name... maybe there is a real one... no offense intended if so) is inherently not a reliable source, on whether Sheldrake's ideas hold promise, and deserve more funding... because a big chunk of the funding would go to them! That is the reason that wikipedia policy demands *extremely* high-quality sources, for justification of positive evidence that speculative claims might be true. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 00:04, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You said: "Sheldrake is *both* someone with okay-for-a-UCambridge-PhD-biochemist-with-a-harvard-fellowship scientific credentials, and simultaneously someone who is WP:N as a controversial author/lecturer." if I understand your statement correctly, I agree that a simple statement of education and then a focus on his non-academic activities is appropriate. If it can be left that way, I think that part of the article would be fair and stable. Tom Butler (talk) 22:47, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, see the section above, which is discussing exactly what I propose the first sentence should say, namely this -- Sheldrake (1942-) is an English biochemist^[1]-and-now-parapsychologist^[2], notable as a controversial^[3] author/lecturer. How do you like them apples, to use the old saying? Right now the first sentence implies he has *no* academic credentials, which is flat wrong, and misleading. David suggested that psychical researcher might be more NPOV that parapsychologist, but I think the former term is too esoteric and readers won't know what it means, so I'm more in favor of the latter, which is sourced, and is reasonably clear even if still a bit misleading. We can clear up exactly what *sort* of parapsychology Sheldrake does in the second paragraph of the lead, where morpho stuff is NPOV-described. Third paragraph is criticism of morpho stuff, necessary per WP:FRINGE, and more fairly, per WP:SUPERCONTROVERSIAL. I'm suggesting a brief fourth paragraph about wife & kids, which right now are in their own single-sentence-section. Anyhoo, see above, and reply above please... TheRedPenOfDoom is trying to keep sanity, by keeping to one topic per section, which is a very good idea. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 00:04, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

74.192.84.101, your hot shower comments are not helpful either. You also make assumptions about a field you clearly know nothing about. Editing based on those assumptions only confounds the problem. I think the fact that this article has been in contention for so long supports my view that consensus has not been achieved. I have seen editors try, but always there are a few, such as the one you just praised, who is quick with a deflecting wisecrack. I expect that, looking at it from either the skeptical or the proponent perspective, the other side appears to be WP:STONEWALL; however, I feel that there has been more effort to compromise from the proponent side. Tom Butler (talk) 17:12, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Please call me 74, it's easier for all concerned. Sorry about the cold-shower-brings-objectivity commentary not being helpful; it was intended to be helpful, by trying to lessen the adversarial who-can-call-the-admin-first back and forth between you and Barney, and definitely not intended as an attempt to drive one or both of you away. Your contention that the pro-Sheldrake folks have been more compromising than the anti-Sheldrake folks is quite true: the current basket-case state of the article is heavily skewed towards the anti-Sheldrake POV, no doubt about it, definitely a biased BLP article. But the larger problem is the *idea* that the article should be used as a political football, and that unsatisfying-to-both-sides compromises are the only way, and in general that Sheldrake-related content should be treated as a WP:BATTLEGROUND and as a place to WP:RGW.

   That confrontational environment was clear the moment I came to this talkpage, and Barney told me to take my frivolous moaning and leave. He did the same thing the VeryScaryMary, but secretly, on her talkpage, threatening her with ArbCom and implying she was a pro-fringe, when all she really was doing was pointing out the blatantly obvious non-neutrality of this article, backed up by perfectly reliable sources. But the pro-Sheldrake folks like yourself do not have the high moral ground, because you let Barney bait you, and then threaten to sic an admin on him... that is stooping to the battleground level. Give him enough WP:ROPE. As for RedPen, I do praise them, they have not stooped to personal attacks. They do seem prone to making wisecracks, but so am I. Sarcasm and humor are tricky to get right on the talkpage, which is mere text, but sometimes a little poking-fun can go a long way. Other times it can backfire, especially in a battleground-assume-bad-faith-environment. I do not believe at all that the RedPenOfDoom was trying to drive VeryScaryMary away... they were just trying to lighten up a serious discussion, and put their opinion in, and it turned out badly, but that was not really their fault. People make mistakes; don't be too hard on them. And don't hold battleground grudges -- the RedPen's idea that we should stop making new sections to rehash the same old thing is a good one (as long as folks will follow through and answer questions... I made the new section for my first-sentence-proposal because nobody was answering me at all... albeit prolly because unable to penetrate my previous wall-of-text verbosity).

   As for VeryScaryMary, seeing immediate sarcasm from the RedPenOfDoom, then the innocent request by Roxy that she read this talkpage and all the talkpage archives, then my volumnious WP:WALLOFTEXT including somewhat-tangential responses, but most hurtful first of all reading Barney's WP:CRUSH on her talkpage, she fled in terror, saying she would rather die than stick around on this twenty-five-page-long battlepage, and that everyone here was acting terribly. That is undoubtedly true, no citation needed. This talkpage is awful. And, although I'm attempting to improve the situation, you are correct when you say that I'm not being helpful either, in actual practice: I did not manage to keep VeryScaryMary from being driven away, and I while I did manage to extract some helpful comments from yourself (thanks!) and also some helpful comments and a well-done rewrite from Ringo1729, you both are now pretty convinced that this talkpage is an utter waste of time, and not helpful, and that you have better things to do, elsewhere, just as VeryScaryMary decided. Which is perfectly true! We all have better, more productive editing we could be doing.

   But if we all give up and leave, then the article will stay just the basket-case is is now, totally skewed in a great many places to the Barney-approved Consensus-Despite-Being-POV. That's not acceptable by wikipedia policies, and not acceptable to me personally. All that being said -- verbosity is my weakness as some here have gently pointed out -- there is nothing wrong with Barney's desire to keep wikipedia a reliable source of truth, and to make sure that we describe Sheldrake's theories as speculative, and demand extremely reliable sources according to WP:FRINGE. I want them to keep doing just that. But tendentious editing, refusing to answer simple questions, and trying to drive new arrivals away is not WP:NICE, and while we can debate the relative merits of WP:BLP versus WP:FRINGE in terms of their applicability to the article, Barney has crossed the pillars, both four and two, in pursuit of the eeevvviillll Doktor Sheldrakenstein who must never be recognized as having impeccable academic scientific credentials by *any* reasonable standard. The bulk of the NPOV sources uniformly call Sheldrake a biologist and an author, or more rarely, an author and a biochemist. Of course, Sheldrake's facebook page uses WP:PEACOCK and says he is a renowned author/scientist, but that's not going to fly in wikipedia unless reliable third-party sources also so say. Still, refusal to say 'scientist' or 'biochemist' or somesuch thing in the opening sentence is not just unfair, and untrue, it's a POV violation. Fortunately, the latter of those three things *is* a policy-violation here in the wikiverse.

   Thus, at the end of the day (to the extent that wikipedia has such a thing), in the reasonably near future... albeit it looks like we are still many days away, if not weeks... I can confidently predict that the Sheldrake article will become considerably more NPOV... and maybe get some copy-editing and some grammar cleanup and some of the other simpler stuff it is definitely needing. But to get there, we have to break the back of the WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality.

   For my part, I do not want you to leave, and ... although my reply to you is of course a wall-of-text like always ... I am doing my best not to drive you away, by wasting your time. If you do decide to come back, take heart, policy is largely on your side -- in most cases the lopsided battleground-compromises that the pro-Sheldrake folks have offered, earlier chronologically, will soon be repaid by the majority of the upcoming changes (which I'm going to see implemented) all being decidedly pro-Sheldrake! That's what happens when the other side does not play fair. Thanks for reading, and thanks for improving wikipedia. With that, I have to go take a cold shower.  :-)   Be back later. — 74.192.84.101 (talk) 19:22, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The lead is too long. Here's a better one. It covers the bases and is fair to Sheldrake. Put the pseudoscience criticism in later sections. Don't hype the biologist title. Read the Parapsychology Association definition of parapsychology and admit that morphic resonance isn't parapsychology. Type less and think more. I've got better things to do with my time. Goodbye.

Alfred Rupert Sheldrake (born 28 June 1942) is an English author, lecturer and proponent of an alternative scientific world-view{cite Roszac review in NS} which he has named morphic resonance. His ideas were developed from his research in biochemistry at Cambridge University{cite something mentioning credentials}. He has conducted several experiments, the results of which he believes support his theories but his conclusions are not accepted by mainstream scientists. However he has support among parapsychologists {cite supporting references} and the lay public, balanced by vociferous opposition from skeptics{cite skeptics}.

Dingo1729 (talk) 04:00, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

100% support this proposal, but fear that many editors here don't really care about whether the reader has to crawl through crap to get to the relevant information they are looking for, so wouldn't be surprised if this is seen as far too impartial and objective. So I like it - what do others think? Tento2 (talk) 11:16, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support Dingo1729's proposal. Do not be too hard on editors who make readers crawl through crap--not everyone is skilled in exposition of complicated subjects. Do not be at all hard on 74--he is verbose but clear, helpful, and always on-topic. Lou Sander (talk) 12:58, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support with two modification. First, insertion of biochemist (or biologist -- don't care which) into the first sentence. Leaving it out is non-neutral, a lie of omission, and we have plenty of reliable sources showing it to be the case, from last year and from decades ago. Do not much care if the ordering is "biochemist and author/lecturer" or instead the flipped version "author/lecturer and biochemist" but think that the fragment about 'proponent of alternative scientific worldview' is more connected to his second career as a popular/infamous/renowned/controversial/whateverPOVadjectiveYouPrefer author, therefore lean towards "biochemist and author/lecturer" as being more chronological and also more clear. Second, insertion of "published N books about his theories and" just in front of the 'conducted several experiments' part in third sentence, because Sheldrake's primary claim to wikipedia Notability is his books, not his papers/experiments/teaching/lectures/etc, all of which stem from the money made selling books. p.s. Value of N depends on whether we count co-authoring and/or new editions. If it turns out exact N is controversial, then I drop my second modification entirely for now, so as not to let the ever-so-slightly-more-perfect be the enemy of the already-very-good. p.p.s. Excellent rewrite, thank you very kindly. Will work on terseness.  :-)   Hope you return, sorry for my part in your leaving, you will be missed. Thanks for improving wikipedia. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 19:22, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think description as an author on [suitable wording for fringe subjects [thus indicating his primary reason for notability]] who formerly worked in academia (i.e. was employed by academic institutions) as biochemist, plant physiologist is entirely correct [giving additional background information]. This is essentially what we have at the moment. Dingo1729 (talk · contribs)'s suggestion isn't too unreasonable but it (a) fails to summarise the article and (b) it flip-flops too much between "pro" and "anti" sources, and (c) it gives far too much attribution to WP:FRINGE sources. Barney the barney barney (talk) 19:47, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

We could use the phrase that Sheldrake is an author who "qualified as a biochemist", the past tense leaving the reader to make their own assumptions. --Iantresman (talk) 20:24, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree -- you do not say the marine with the grey hair and the chest covered with medals *used* to be a marine. You do not say that Sinatra *used* to be a singer, to swipe somebody else's quote. The guy is a scientist, and calling him something POV like parapsychologist (which I was under the false impression that normal/typical sources *besides* wikipedia and the few cites wikipedia gives) is flat incorrect and misleading. VeryScaryMary has provided plenty of sources for this usage, and even the simplest googling proves her point. Plus, the whole key to why Sheldrake is seen as a threat to science is that he is a scientist. Leaving that out is cheating the reader, and the truth, not to mention violating pillar two (let alone four). 74.192.84.101 (talk) 04:47, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

He is NOT a "proponent of an alternative scientific world-view" and mis-labeling him as such in the lead sentence is a non-starter.WP:NPOV / WP:VALID his is a pseudo-scientific world view. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 07:54, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, TRPOD, We shouldn't be using the word "scientific" - (or for that matter "pseudoscientific", anti-scientific, etc) without qualification because that would imply endorsement of a particular view of his activities. Barney the barney barney (talk) 17:42, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

TRPoD, we agree using the bare-word use of 'scientific' to describe Sheldrake's phytomorphology/physics/consciousness/similar theories *would* be incorrect. (And of course, ditto for his theology, or his philosophy of science, or his philosophy of mind, or his other 'humanties' stuff.) But this is distinct from whether he the person is a scientist; do not conflate the two things. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 04:47, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A proposed amendment, in the hope of simplifying the lede and addressing the concerns expressed above (haven't built in refs here, but they are already available on the main page):

Alfred Rupert Sheldrake (born 28 June 1942) is an English author, lecturer and proponent of morphic resonance: the notion that "memory is inherent in nature" and that "natural systems, such as termite colonies, or pigeons, or orchid plants, or insulin molecules, inherit a collective memory from all previous things of their kind.". His ideas were developed from his doctorate and subsequent research in biochemistry and cell biology at Cambridge University.

Sheldrake has questioned several of the foundations of modern science, arguing that science has become a series of dogmas rather than an open-minded approach to investigating phenomena. His critics express concern that his books and public appearances attract popular attention in a way that has a negative impact on the public's understanding of science. He has conducted several experiments, the results of which he believes support his theories although his conclusions are not accepted by mainstream scientists. He is seen as a controversial figure, who has gained support among parapsychologists and the lay public, balanced by vociferous opposition from skeptics.

Everything else, as far as I can see, is adding little except meat for arguments. Tento2 (talk) 14:51, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Actually that isn't bad. It works for me if you get rid of the phrase "and the lay public, balanced by vociferous opposition from skeptics." and just put a full stop after parapsychologists. --Roxy the dog (resonate) 15:10, 28 October 2013 (UTC)}[reply]

The last part of the last sentence is a little wordy. How about we turn it around a little so that the final paragraph reads:

Although Sheldrake has gained support among parapsychologists, he is seen as a controversial figure for having questioned several of the foundations of modern science and arguing that science has become a series of dogmas rather than an open-minded approach to investigating phenomena. His critics express concern that his books and public appearances attract popular attention in a way that has a negative impact on the public's understanding of science. Although he has conducted several experiments, the results of which he believes support his theories, his conclusions have been disputed and rejected by mainstream scientists.

In regard to refs for these comments, lede remarks shouldn't actually be supported by refs, because the lede is supposed to highlight information that is already explained and referenced within the main body of the article. This is another reason why the lede needs to be brief and build its content on points that are well established, free of dispute, and supported by reliable references. It should be our own, agreed-upon, editorial summary, and anything that opens up controversy needs to come out.Tento2 (talk) 16:04, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is getting close. I think the first paragraph should somehow say that Sheldrake is (pretty much) the only proponent of Morphic Resonance, and that it has been examined and refuted by mainstream people. The experiments are a different matter, as is his questioning of some foundational principles of science. I think that the "controversial figure" stuff belongs right up front in the first paragraph--an important aspect of his notability is the controversy that surrounds him. Lou Sander (talk) 16:50, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

How about this for the first paragraph:

Alfred Rupert Sheldrake (born 28 June 1942) is a controversial English author, lecturer and proponent of morphic resonance: the notion that "memory is inherent in nature" and that "natural systems, such as termite colonies, or pigeons, or orchid plants, or insulin molecules, inherit a collective memory from all previous things of their kind." This idea originated during his doctoral studies and subsequent research in biochemistry and cell biology at Cambridge University, and has been developed over many years since. The concept of Morphic Resonance has been examined and forcefully rejected by numerous mainstream scientists; it has received little support outside Sheldrake's immediate circle.

In accordance with the ideas expressed by Tento2 above, I probably wouldn't include citations. Neither would I object to leaving them in. Lou Sander (talk) 17:43, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Is there are problem with the introduction that Ian suggested up-the-page? If there is, would you please tell me why? The first references to Mr Sheldrakes job title and qualifications are all from the same website, (new scientist) and are all very old:( I really would like to understand why there is such a problem with getting to change less than 20 words? Why does there need to be the word 'controversial' in the intro? Tento, do you view him as that controversial? How many of the editors here have actually read his books, or seen him talk or know much about the man himself? And what's so wrong about what he writes about/researches? PLUS why are people discussing the page on here, when they're banned from editing? Surely if you get an editing ban, then your views are null-and-void? According to Wikipedia:Banning_policy#Conduct_towards_banned_editors banned editors aren't supposed to have anything more to do with an article. I would like to help edit this page/subject. I would like Mr Sheldrake's job title and description to be correct. I would like when members of the public visit this page, that they find not only correct information but also more NPOV Mr Sheldrake is NOT the only person to investigate morphic resonance (i quoted other scientists who have above) and where are all these people that are in dispute with what he's written/researched? MOST people (that's ordinary people not scientists) are intrigued with his research...and are you aware that this talk page is now being written about http://www.realitysandwich.com/wikipedia_battle_rupert_sheldrakes_biography Veryscarymary (talk) 19:00, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Why are you so rude to Sheldrake, Mary? I've asked you politely a couple of times to refer to him not as 'Mr' if you have to use a title, but as 'Dr'. You will note that none of us here use Mr, we either call him Dr. or just 'Sheldrake'. Neither are disrespectful.

About 'banned' editors. There are no banned editors still writing here, the ones who have been banned can't write here. If you are referring to IP editors, they aren't banned, they just choose not to create accounts here, and so are disadvantaged when there are restrictions imposed, due normally to vandalism by, well by vandals. Before making wild statements about things you should get to understand what is going on first.

I find it interesting that you pointed out Craig Weiller's post as an example of people writing about this page off-wiki. That seems to be a copy of his poorly researched blog post. Very inaccurate, as you know, having read this talk page. What amuses me that as a 'Psychic' he ought to know how this whole thing ends anyway.

I also wanted to try to explain to you what we are here for as wikipedians, trying to produce an encyclopaedia. We are charged to tell it like it is, within the rules as set out for us by the community. It is pretty clear that you don't understand what this means when it comes to fringe ideas, such as Dr. Sheldrakes. It's like homeopathy or astrology - our articles describe them for the nonsense that they are, with no basis in reality, without being unduly rude or disparaging. (Not an easy task) It is right that they are described as such, because they are fringe topics, whose tenets and beliefs are nonsensical. Sheldrakes ideas are like the sugar pills of homeopathy or the star charts of astrology - they have no basis in fact. We have a duty to describe that. --Roxy the dog (resonate) 01:16, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Roxy, you are not being very WP:NICE, now settle down, do you want your biscuit? There are a billion words here, Mary has no need to read them all, especially since most are not worth reading, mine included. She has her facts perfectly clear: nearly every single source calls sheldrake a scientist/biologist/biochemist/cellBiologist/phytologist/plantPhysiologist ... because that is what he is after all ... only wikipedia strips him of that credential, and clearly it is for a very POV purpose... to make his theories discredited, by discrediting him. But he is a scientist, with highly respectable credentials, and wikipedians cannot cherrypick to suit POV. You ar wrong when you say Wikipedians Are Charged To Tell It Like It Is, quite wrong. We are charged to tell it like *sources* say it is, to maintain NPOV, and not to mis-use wikipedia to WP:RGW. As for the astrology star-charts, they are reasonably accurate, as long as you don't mind adjusting manually for a couple thousand years of precession. You think astrology-Jupiter is plotted incorrectly compared to real-Jupiter? Astrology, like alchemy, or for that matter like the early use of opiates in medicine, is a type of largely-discredited form of proto-science precursors, mixing some good with some bad. Saying they have no basis in fact is POV, and historically incorrect. Which, since this talkpage is already filled beyond the brim, I'll be happy to discuss further on my user-talkpage, if you care to, but not here. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 04:40, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there Mary, glad to see you were not driven away.  :-)   Using the word 'controversial' is WP:EDITORIALIZING unless we have a source... the best I could come up with was UsaToday, which is *not* a very convincing one (since yellow journalism sells newspapers). Even *they* called him a biologist, however. Pretty much all the sources do, except one or two. Anyhoo, we'll get this non-neutrality fixed up at some point. Barney wants sheldrake to be a non-scientist, which is wrong, but TRPoD just wants morphic-fields to be (properly) pointed out as speculative/etc, and is just confusing that goal with the goal of describing sheldrake-the-person (as distinct from morphic-fields-the-view). Mary, can I please suggest that you create a section, and offer us what you would have the lede say, exactly? That might help.

OK, I see us getting close, I'd like to open up a new sub thread with this conflation of Tento's two versions and some tweaks of my own. My tweaks are noted with strikethroughs or in bold. While I understand Mary's question about why it's necessary to amend Tento's first proposal, I think it loses gravity with Tento having put forward an alternative in response to others' comments, including at least one quacked with harmonious resonance from the other side of the great skeptic/BLP divide.

Alfred Rupert Sheldrake (born 28 June 1942) is an English author, lecturer and proponent of morphic resonance: the notion that "memory is inherent in nature" and that "natural systems, such as termite colonies, or pigeons, or orchid plants, or insulin molecules, inherit a collective memory from all previous things of their kind.". His ideas were He developed the idea of morphic resonance during his doctoral studies and, after receiving his Ph.D., from his doctorate and, subsequent research in biochemistry and cell biology at Cambridge University.

Although Sheldrake has gained support among parapsychologists, he is seen by most of his scientific peers as a controversial figure of controversy for having questioned several of the foundations of modern science and arguing that science has become a series of dogmas rather than an open-minded approach to investigating phenomena. His critics express concern that his books and public appearances attract popular attention in a way that has a negative impact on the public's understanding of science. Although he has conducted several experiments, the results of which he believes support his theories, his conclusions have been disputed and rejected by mainstream scientists in the scientific literature.

Also, I think we'd do better to leave the refs in. David in DC (talk) 22:10, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's important to include "controversial" in the first sentence. He IS controversial--look at all the stuff about him here and in the references.

I also think that "The concept of Morphic Resonance has been examined and forcefully rejected by numerous mainstream scientists; it has received little support outside Sheldrake's immediate circle." is an accurate description, and might satisfy those who demand that his work be placed in its proper relationship to the mainstream.

The parapsychology stuff mainly pertains to Dogs that Know and Sense of Being Stared at, not to Morphic Resonance. The challenging dogmas stuff sort of stands on its own. Lou Sander (talk) 23:07, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

He got the idea of morphic resonance in Cambridge, but he didn't develop it until after he left for India, as the "Origin and philosophy" section explains. Questioning the foundations of modern science is largely from his 2012 book -- that's not the point around which Sheldrake has drawn controversy for 32 years. It's a disservice to remove all indication of why Sheldrake's ideas are not accepted by the scientific community. That makes scientists actually seem dogmatic, as Sheldrake claims.

The current lead in the article is substantially muted from weeks past; David did the first round of muting and I did a bit more a couple weeks ago. Really, I see little problem with it. I wish the physics part was smoother, or that there was some alternative for addressing the "series of dogmas", other than citing Lawton's "woolly credulousness" of course.

The above proposal does have one idea worth considering: removing the parapsychologist title. I would agree to that. vzaak (talk) 02:18, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  David, same objection#1 as usual. Needs to say 'biochemist' or if you prefer 'biologist' in the first sentence. ...an English biochemist, author/lecturer, and proponent of... or ...an English author/lecturer, biologist, and proponent of... Do you disagree 'scientist' is correct? 74.192.84.101 (talk) 04:26, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  David, same objection#2 as usual. Sheldrake is most famous as an author. Needs to insert "...that his N books since 1981..." to give an indication of how long & successful his authoring-career has been. Disagree? 74.192.84.101 (talk) 04:26, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  David, new&interesting objection :-) ...you mention his phd, and his U.Cambridge research, but cut out all the fellowships (including the stint at Harvard which was the key to his later Kuhnian attacks on the way science's funding-infrastructure works). We can leave that stuff until later, if you think it does not belong in the lede, but I agree with Lou that the dogma-stuff slash science-funding-stuff slash question-advocacy stuff stands alone, and prolly ought be mentioned alone. Maybe also the books on spirituality. Maybe add a sentence somewhere? "Besides his proposals in biochemistry and physics, Sheldrake has long advocated that the way science is conducted, funded, and questioned should be changed, and became a Ksomething Fellow at Harvard for a year to study the history of science; FamousScientist has accused Sheldrake of improperly questioning the foundations of science." Can likely be slimmed-n-trimmed. In your current version, you say that the dogma-stuff is why sheldrake is controversial, but that's just recent, and thus not the whole truth: the telepathy-like nature of morphic resonance is the original (and still main... TEDx notwithstanding) source of controversy among mainstream scientists. p.s. Minor slim: ...has conducted several experiments, but the results have been disputed and rejected... 74.192.84.101 (talk) 04:26, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

He is controversial mostly because of Morphic. The other stuff gets much less criticism. It consists of 1) writing parapsychology books (Pets, Staring), 2) thoughtfully challenging some dogmas of science (Set Free). That Morphic is controversial is an important aspect of his notability. Lou Sander (talk) 05:09, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm basically OK with that but not sure about the last sentence - preferred it as it was - but could live with this. We don't need to say 'biochemist' or 'biologist' in the first sentence - it is covered by the fact that we've mentioned his "doctorate and subsequent research in biochemistry and cell biology at Cambridge University"; (credit the reader with the intelligence to realise that means he has credentials in those subjects, and build more info in the main body if necessary - don't strive to push any point beyond the briefest account necessary in the lede). It is patently clear that Sheldrake is a controversial figure but we don't need to put the word 'controversial' into the first sentence or first part of the lede. Anything that gets mentioned within a brief lede is sufficiently highlighted. We also don't need to imply that his ideas are nonsense or garbage - we should impartially report the reasons for his notability, not build in any assumptions of our own. We will have a much better chance of reaching sensible consensus on many points if all editors avoid expecting content that represents their own ideal, and agree to content that is based on verifiable information and eliminates the worst points of contention. Tento2 (talk) 09:55, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

TLDR_version. ~1956-1970ish, Sheldrake=atheist. 1960-1985, Sheldrake=mainstreamScientist. ~1971-2013, Sheldrake=hasManyIdeasSomeAboutAngelsOrTelepathyLikeOrWhatever. ~1970ish-1978, Sheldrake=meditationSufiHindiEasternismEtc. ~1977-2013, Sheldrake=generallyChristianAndAtSomePointSpecificallyAnglican. 1988-2012, Sheldrake=authorWithMultipleBooks. Article not complete without all these. But the keys are sheldrake=scientist, sheldrake=author, and sheldrake=controversialIdeas. Scientist-cred is *why* books sell like hotcakes. Author-revenue *funds* continuing experiments/talks/papers/etc. Controversy *promotes* the man & ideas ("no news is bad news"). Controversy over ideas does not, cannot, and ought not obliterate The Facts... even if many wikipedia editors, and many mainstream scientists, dislike the ideas, and therefore -- whether consciously or unconsciously -- want to discredit the man, as a way of discrediting his controversial ideas. (Obvious thing is to split the article in twain... but the same people that conflate contextualizing sheldrake's ideas as minority views, with using wikipedia to synthesize a debunking of sheldrake's ideas via cherrypicking, with using wikipedia to defame the man, are also against splitting the article to have one about the author who is a biologist and author with controversial ideas, and one about the controversial ideas... so we continue our WP:BATTLEGROUND.

why can't the lede contain all the basics? date of birth? job title and qualification...and leave all the other stuff for the next sentences? Veryscarymary (talk) 21:16, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Mary... the answer is, unfortunately, that this article is a basket-case, and the lede omits facts or uses misleading facts (see the 'NPOV tag again' section at the bottom for the current attempt to fix the first sentence), because the article -- and of course the associated talkpage along with it -- has become a WP:BATTLEGROUND since the TEDx talk. If you read enough of this horrendously long talkpage (apologies for my significant role in creating that length!), you will see there are some pro-factions, some anti-factions, and some folks that are striving to achieve NPOV, and end the WP:BATTLEGROUND in favor of WP:NICE. You are very welcome to stick around and assist, but I must advise you that I expect this will take several days, if not weeks, of high-volume talkpage effort. Furthermore, tempers are still hot, and many people have been blocked/banned/topic'd with little warning due to Discretionary Admin Powers, so if you do decide to stick, please DO NOT get dragged down into the mud; take a break if you need a breather, and WP:AGF. But hey, on the other hand, maybe I'm a pessimist, and we'll get it all wrapped up into a clean NPOV package by the weekend. Hope springs eternal! Thanks for improving wikipedia. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 02:18, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

the WP:LEAD must cover a summary of the contents of the article, representing all major aspects of the subject in appropriate proportion as they are covered in the reliable sources. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 02:44, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes? We're just discussing the first sentence here. Second sentence respectable academic credentials, third sentence N books since 1981. Paragraph two, morpho-in-a-nutshell. Paragraph three, mainstream criticism of morpho. Paragraph four, sheldrake on philosophy-of-science, spirituality, and miscellaneous topics. I have my own suggestion along these lines. But as Mary is pointing out, and as I am pointing out, we cannot get out of the first sentence, because people are conflating sheldrake-has-some-idea-that-maddox-dubbed-pseudosci, with the completely distinct idea that sheldrake-must-no-longer-be-called-biologist. p.s. And speaking of getting stuck... how about my quote on Sufism getting into the personal life section, since I'm restricted from doing so myself? Or if you disagree with it, please say why. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 03:37, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I like Ian's suggestion, but my editing skills won't let me do the referencing thing properly Alfred Rupert Sheldrake (born 28 June 1942)[1] is a British biologist[25][26][27] who now researches,[28] writes and lectures[29] in the field of parapsychology[30][31] and the philosphy of science,[32] that have been the subject of controversy.[33][34] --Iantresman (talk) 09:53, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
so I've just copied and pasted it again.
What seriously are the objections to the above? Why can't we have a lede that is 20 words, short and sweet like "Ben Michael Goldacre, MRCPsych (born 1974) is a British physician, academic and science writer. As of 2012 he is a Wellcome research fellow in epidemiology at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine.[2] "
It's 20 words long, has year of birth, qualification, job title....etc....and that controversial stuff can happen later down the article as I still maintain this man is living and the present lede is running into libel.. Veryscarymary (talk) 21:14, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Here is the cut-n-paste of what Iantresman wrote ... Mary, if you want to preserve ref-stuff, instead of copying the text straight from the browser, click the edit-button on the section, and then copy the wikitext. (You can click edit on *this* section, to see the difference when pasted... I also used the blockquote trick to keep Iantresman's stuff separated from my own sentences. HTH.)

Thank you:) xx Veryscarymary (talk) 21:49, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Alfred Rupert Sheldrake (born 28 June 1942)^[5] is a British biologist[49][50][51] who now researches,[52] writes and lectures[53] in the field of parapsychology[54][55] and the philosphy of science,[56] that have been the subject of controversy.[57][58]

I would prefer to say "biologist and author" right at the start, since that formulation is more common than 'writer' in the bulk of sources, and since most of Sheldrake's WP:N is due to his books. Also, per WP:EDITORIALIZING, I would rather use brief quotes from Sokal ('bizarre... speculative... no evidence') and Maddox ('an exercise in pseudo-science') which indicate Sheldrake's popularity with mainstream scientists, from harsh-but-fair all the way to the-pope-would-burn-his-books. Agree with TRPoD on the correct way to handle the Roszak review, but doubt it needs to be in the lead, since the Sokal-when-serious and Maddox-when-offended quotes are mainstream, and Roszak's initial enthusiasm was later recanted. p.s. For some reason that is unclear to me, English-not-British. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 02:42, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Good idea, but he's STILL A SCIENTIST, even if other scientists don't like/understand or want to be friends with him...!! but that's beginning to sound better...we DO need to have the first line correct before anyone does anything else with any other part of his biog!! xx Veryscarymary (talk) 21:48, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Can somebody please explain why the Neutrality tag keeps getting placed on the page, without any explanation? --Roxy the dog (quack quack) 19:49, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Roxy! Shocking! How dare you call me a tart, wait till I sic the nearest yada yada yada..... Sigh. Kidding, as you prolly guessed. Seriously, the answer is, edit war. Please see, WP:BATTLEGROUND, WP:NINJA, WP:IDHT. Two threats to bring in an admin, one by Tom from the pro-camp, one by Barney from the anti-camp, tut tut. Probably a conspiracy to get the article full-protected, so that nobody will be able to edit. At the moment, only I suffer from that restriction. Wikipedia, the encyclopedia anybody could-once edit, but nowadays very few want to, anymore. No real mystery why,[59] either. Best we change that, if we want WP:RETENTION. HTH 74.192.84.101 (talk) 21:04, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There are not enough sections on this page where people can rehash the same comments being discussed in four other sections.

So if your issue is only being talked about in 3 or few other sections, you should bring it here as well because that will obviously help to use up all the remaining pixels in the universe. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:58, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As you wish.... ctrl+a ctrl+c ctrl+v .... there, a complete copy of everything, mirrored here... wait, what's this? Oh, there's a section at the bottom asking for a rehash... well, okay... ctrl+a ctrl+c ctrl+v .... there, a complete copy of everything, mirrored here... wait, what's ________ERROR_83_MAX_RECURSION_DEPTH_EXCEEDED_STACK_OVERFLOW. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 21:07, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

TRPoD, or somebody interested in fleshing out the spirituality-section slash new-age-connection, can you please search for 'sufi' on this talkpage. I can always open up a new section, but there *was* a discussion of sheldrake's religious views already, so I put it there. But nobody has responded, and the page is still locked-down so I cannot fix the problem myself. Danke. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 04:51, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In a book section, six lines are devoted to the BLP subject's book, while eleven lines are devoted to a single critical article about it. Lou Sander (talk) 01:04, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Lou, this is not a specific enough example of non-neutrality. Line-count is irrelevant. "Neutrality assigns weight to viewpoints in proportion to their prominence." Wikipedia is not about giving equal time to all viewpoints, it is about giving proper WP:WEIGHT where deserved, as demonstrated by the bulk of the WP:RS. Here is the key snippet, relevant to discussion of Sheldrake's books: "...even plausible but currently unaccepted theories should not be legitimized through comparison [as if equal] to accepted academic scholarship. We do not take a stand on these issues as encyclopedia writers, for or against; we merely... describe them in their proper context with respect to established scholarship and the beliefs of the greater world." From WP:GEVAL. Clearly *some* anti-morphic sentences are required, because morphic theory is speculative until a preponderance of experimental evidence in WP:RS says otherwise.

   Maintaining WP:NPOV means we have to describe morphic stuff "in proper context... of the greater world". That said, of course, this is an article about Sheldrake, and about Sheldrake's views (unless and until the article is split), so there should be no WP:COATRACK garbage, of going off on a tangent which has little to do with Sheldrake, his book, the views in his book, the wider field of related theories, a professor I once had, their bicycle, bicycles in general, the invention of the wheel....

   We ought to describe the contents of the book, neutrally, mention that some things the book says do not jive with the current mainstream beliefs of the greater world, and briefly and neutrally specify exactly how, then go on to the next book.

   Are some of the 6 pro-lines misleading, sans context, badly sourced, repetitive, unclear, vague, or otherwise flawed? Point out exactly how.

   Are some of the 9 antilines misleading, sans context, badly sourced, repetitive, unclear, vague, or otherwise flawed? Point out exactly how.

Better yet, do what Ringo1729 did, and suggest a rewrite that cuts out the fat, and sticks to the essentials which are neutral in tone and fully-sourced. HTH. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 19:44, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Your whole premise of "unbalanced" is wrong to begin with WP:VALID He is presenting ideas that the mainstream academic world treats as FRINGE and therefore, in proper balance, we present as FRINGE . -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:59, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

WP:DUE is the appropriate policy section we are obliged to adhere to: "In articles specifically relating to a minority viewpoint, such views may receive more attention and space. However, these pages should still make appropriate reference to the majority viewpoint".

WP:VALID is for general articles (on what it calls "mainstream scholarship"), where we don't give minority views undue weight or validity in such an article. Otherwise every article specifically about a minority view, would improperly devote much of its space to a majority view, when WP:DUE correctly tells us that we need only "make appropriate reference to the majority viewpoint". --Iantresman (talk) 22:15, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

you must be reading a different VALID than me. Mine says: " we merely omit (Conspiracy theories, pseudoscience, speculative history, or even plausible but currently unaccepted theories) where including them would unduly legitimize them," well, no in this case the article is about "the Conspiracy theories, pseudoscience, speculative history, or even plausible but currently unaccepted theories" but we " describe them in their proper context with respect to established scholarship and the beliefs of the greater world."-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:36, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, insofar as WP:VALID applies to general articles on mainstream scholarship. It would not be appropriate in an article on, for example, Political party to includes details of the Nazi Party, Monster Raving Loony Party or Australian Sex Party, because they are either unacceptable, minority, legitimate, or nonsense, and we wouldn't want to give any of them undue weight, publicity, legitimacy, or veracity. But it doesn't stop us from having a detailed article on each one, that doesn't violate WP:NPOV. --Iantresman (talk) 23:47, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly the book section should cover the book, and there is no obvious problem with the single reference in that part of the section, or with the way it is written. Certainly the book section can and should say that morphic is seen as pseudoscience or whatever. There is no obvious problem with the 10-12 references in the part that says that, or with the way that part is written. But about twice as much space is devoted to the 3/4-page review as is devoted to the 200-page book. Maybe I'm the only one here who sees something wrong, or unbalanced, or overdone, or out of whack with that. Maybe I'm the only one who has taken a course in English composition. Lou Sander (talk) 00:50, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

So why not make your composition teacher proud -- pick a particular sentence, and suggest a particular rewrite. Or if you feel frisky, suggest a rewrite for the whole section, maintaining NPOV. But it sounds like you're saying the sentences there are *fine* but that you'd like more sentences about the contents of the book... if so, *write* an additional sentence, or split-and-expand and existing sentence, and offer it to us. Line counts are not helping me here. The motto of the state of Missouri is 'show me'. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 00:47, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Apart from anything this one review was (1) written by a prominent figure (Sir John Maddox FRS), (2) was quite controversial at the time, leading to several letters to Nature including one from Brian Josephson, (3) has had commentary written about it [60], and fourthly Maddox makes several insights into the nature of Sheldrake's work, including the pseudoscience, magical thinking, unfalsifiability and impracticality and uselessness of experiments that Sheldrake proposed. Even Sheldrake's publishers repeat part of the review on their cover. Barney the barney barney (talk) 17:55, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Insights", not in my opinion, Maddox's opinion, certainly, and I think it is sufficiently notable to include. --Iantresman (talk) 18:11, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

So, are you suggesting a specific edit, Iantresman? What exactly? Please elaborate. (And yes, just one review is fine, as long as it is a reliable source, which presents the mainstream-view, as opposed to the minority-view held by Sheldrake.) 74.192.84.101 (talk) 00:47, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

TRPoD, having reviewed the WP:FRINGE stuff Yet Again, plenty of times I'm still drawing a blank here. Sheldrake's got a bunch of theories, some in phytomorphology, some in physics, some in philosophy of mind, some in philosophy of science, some in spirituality, and probably some I've never heard of. In the first case, he's in his primary field, and his credentials carry plenty of weight. In the last case, he's in a totally non-scientific field, and his opinions carry as much weight as anybody's opinions. The middle areas, where he delves into physics and consciousness and such, are the most sticky. The way the WP:FRINGE guidelines are written, I get contradictory info, but it seems like Sheldrake's phyto-theories have to be QuestionableScience (not good enough to be AlternateMinorityViewScience), and his spirituality-stuff like the Angels-book with Fox have to be WP:ABOUTSELF which can be commented on w.r.t. whether the Anglican theologists agree, but not whether *science* agrees, since they aren't scientific views at all. So there is a mainstream-science-view-of-phytomorphology which is contrasted with Sheldrake's QueSci, and a mainstream-christian-view-of-Episcopalianism, which can be constrasted with Sheldrake's AltMinorityTheology. As for his philosophy-of-mind stuff, I'd be tempted to put that into QuestionableScience but WP:RS might convince me otherwise, and *some* of his physics-views should be categorized as WP:FRINGE which is to say GenerallyPseudoscience... but even there, Sokal was pretty guarded, talking about no-evidence-whatsoever, which is different from total-quack-obviously-pseudoscience. When you say we have to apply WP:FRINGE to Sheldrake, please be more specific... his personal life is clearly not WP:FRINGE, and that includes his spirituality-stuff as AltMinorityView one would think. His views on scientific fields are not mainstream, or even alt-minority prolly, but seem to be more in the questionable-science-group than in the generally-pseudo-sci-group, or the obvious-pseudo-sci-group. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 00:47, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

An editor who calls himself TheRedPenofDoom has reversed two of my edits and rationalized both with false information. The first edit was an addition to the section on Seven Experiments and Dogs That Know. I wrote, "In a subsequent interview, after noting that his experiment generated the same pattern of data as Sheldrake's, Wiseman conceded that 'there may well be something going on' and that more experiments were needed to settle the matter." RPD deleted the passage with the claim that it was an "absolute misrepresentation of the statement and context it was made in." Here's the original statement, which can be accessed at http://www.skeptiko.com/11-dr-richard-wiseman-on-rupert-sheldrakes-dogsthatknow/:

Alex Tsakiris: You know, I wonder if there’s any way to go back and re-analyze some of the work that you and Rupert did with the J.T. experiments? I mean, there’s still the videos, there’s still the data. He’s still out there suggesting that when you take your data and you plot it with his criteria, it’s a replication of his work. Is there some way to take that data and take a fresh look at it and see if it really is robust in that way? And it really can be – and it’s one experiment, I mean, let’s get that clear, too…

Dr. Richard Wiseman: Yes.

Alex Tsakiris: …it’s not going to overturn the foundations of science. It’s just one experiment, but…

Dr. Richard Wiseman: Well, yeah, I mean, I suspect it’s quite problematic because it depends how the data is collected, so I don’t think there’s any debate, but the patterning in my studies are the same as the patterning in Rupert’s studies. That’s not up for grabs. That’s fine. It’s how it’s interpreted.

So without sort of boring your listeners too much, if you’re going to do an experiment with a psychic dog, you want to know that the return times of your owner are random, because if they’re non-random, then the dog may be picking up on the patterning that when the owner goes out at a certain time of day, they tend to be gone for an hour, another time two hours, it may be the clothing the owner’s wearing or the signals the owner unconsciously gives off. All that’s information to the animal, so you want random return times.

Then the other problem is, that as the owner stays away from home for longer and longer, the dog will naturally go to the window for longer and longer. And so you need to have trials where you have short, medium and long return times. Now Rupert has that sort of data, but as far as I know, I haven’t got enough random trials that are long, medium, and short to make an absolute certain case that yes, indeed, the dog was picking up something. So I say by looking at his data, that yeah there may well be something going on.

They don’t look to me quite as methodology [sic] rigorous as you would need in order to be able to make that decision firmly in one direction or another. I would sort of tick the “more experiments needed” box, under slightly more rigorous conditions.

I've placed in bold the three relevant statements made by Wiseman. Clearly there's no misrepresentation.

The second edit was an addition to the section on The Sense of Being Stared At. I wrote, "A meta-analysis of 60 related experiments concluded that there was statistical evidence of 'a genuine, independently repeatable effect.'" The source was an article in the peer reviewed Journal of Consciousness Studies. RPD reversed the edit with the claim that JCS is not a reliable source. Since when is an internationally known and respected peer reviewed journal not reliable? Is any source reliable? Before reversing my edit, RPD should have cited a reliable source for his outlandish claim.

If RPD fails to justify his reversals here, the edits will be reinstated.

I should add that both edits originated with Blacksqr. Unlike RPD, whose purpose here seems to be to bias the article to the negative, Blacksqr is making an honest attempt to restore neutral POV. Alfonzo Green (talk) 19:57, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at the quotes you supplied, taking what you have highlighted out of context, cherry picking, to support your edit, is not cricket. Wiseman didn't conclude what you said he concluded. Clearly. --Roxy the dog (resonate) 20:44, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wiseman concedes nothing. In the context of the conversation, he is still firmly adamant that he found zero evidence of psychic dogs and his scientific review of Sheldrakes does not find the evidence of psychic dogs that Sheldrake claims. What he is saying is that when you look at the information without knowing all of the background details and in a non-rigorous non-scientific view, yes there are things that might look like patterns, but you cannot make any actual scientific claims from that perspective. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:29, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Not even close. What he's saying is that when he replicated Sheldrake's experiment, he generated the same pattern of data. He got exactly the same results Sheldrake got, but he's interpreting those results differently. This is why he calls for more experiments. By generating more data "in slightly more rigorous conditions," he hopes to rule out faulty interpretations. He says nothing whatever about getting the wrong idea from looking at the data in a non-rigorous or unscientific way. This is pure confabulation on your part and evidence of anti-Sheldrake bias. It's this sort of bias that has placed the article in violation of neutral POV. That said, I agree the "concedes" can be replaced with a less loaded term. Alfonzo Green (talk) 18:46, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

you can shout all you want but you conveniently stopped quoting before "I think as is so much of his work, it’s very easy to look at it and go, yeah, a priori, that looks like there’s a cased something there, but things need to be done with a little bit more rigor and in this instance, that hasn’t happened." and you started quoting after "So I think we were actually looking at two different questions, which is where some of the confusion is. Now we could have been, I guess, trying to work together to look at that large body of data that Rupert had collected and sort of picked that apart and said, well, is that really strong evidence and so on. I have done that many, many times over the years with many different claims. In this particular instance, I’m not that impressed with the data that Rupert’s collected. I think it’s really interesting, I think there are some methodological problems with it," -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:23, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wiseman does emphasize that subsequent experimentation needs to be more rigorous, and this should be included in the article. Alfonzo Green (talk) 20:09, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wiseman does emphasize that SHELDRAKE's subsequent experimentation needs to be more rigorous. "I think as is so much of his work, it’s very easy to look at it and go, yeah, a priori, that looks like there’s a cased something there, but things need to be done with a little bit more rigor". -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:16, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have taken the reliableness to Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Rupert_Sheldrake_-_Journal_of_Consciousness_Studies, linked back to your comments here. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:24, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Roxy, please explain how my summary distorts Wiseman's statement. Without specifics, you're wasting our time. Alfonzo Green (talk) 21:30, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like a pretty clear case of WP:COMPETENCE issues leading to WP:POV pushing. This is fairly typical of Sheldrake's fans who want to whitewash the article as much as possible. I would say the only one wasting time is Alfonzo Green (talk · contribs) but Sheldrake's other fans here are as well. Barney the barney barney (talk) 21:33, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Alfonzo, I have nothing to add to the comments I have already made, and those further comments in this section made since. --Roxy the dog (resonate) 21:42, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sheldrake doesn't have any fans that I see here. There are people who want to see a good article written from a neutral point of view. There are others who see this group as Sheldrake "fans," and call them names, waste their time, and on and on. These folks also seem to see themselves as Righteous Defenders of Science. None of it is good for Wikipedia. Lou Sander (talk) 21:58, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

no, there are people who refuse to acknowledge that WP:NPOV does NOT mean that all point of view are treated as equally WP:VALID. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:32, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Barney the barney barney Please WP:AGF, and don't accuse other editors of POV pushing without providing diffs per WP:WIAPA "Serious accusations require serious evidence". Labelling editors as "Sheldrake fans" is speculative and not constructive.

@TRPoD No-one is suggesting that we treat sources as equal, but WP:VALID is not valid here, it applies to general articles. WP:DUE is the appropriate policy for articles devoted to minority views. Only someone with a poor grasp of the English language would need to exclude sources, rather than "weight" them appropriately with the simply use of the appropriate adjective and context.--Iantresman (talk) 22:55, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ian: Seriously? The real problem here is that Sheldrake's theories are WP:BALLS. The fact that he uses obscure academic language in the process makes it hard for anybody who is not a specialist in the area to spot the nonsense. It's a Bogdanov situation. TRPoD is basically right, the question is how to ensure that Wikipedia is right without heading off into the long grass of extreme skepticism (Sheldrake is a crank blah blah) or the fanboi edits that have bedevilled the page for a while. Nobody needs this to end up at ArbCom, so how about using your experience of Wikipedia to ensure that the article reflects Sheldrake's views accurately, and leave others to work on the mainstream opinion which I guess you don't entirely share. Guy (Help!) 23:37, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

While I agree that one problem here is that Sheldrake's theories are indeed bollocks, another is "the long grass of extreme skepticism." (Brilliant phrase that.) But to give you an idea of how far into that long grass we've gone on this article, it might help to review the long, long bit of contention we've had in the editing of this page over whether it's permissible to call Sheldrake's conceptions "theories" at all. At various times in the article's recent history, "theory/theories" and "hypothesis/hypotheses" have been banished, with straight-faced arguments advanced that they must be called notion(s), idea(s) or "concepts".

Even now, if anyone dares to edit in a mention that Sheldrake is a biologist, they are summarily reverted with edit summaries and talk page comments ridiculing the notion. We're told he's an ex-biologist. Or he left science years ago. Or biologists do science and that Sheldrake hasn't done science for 20 years. That's the reson for the peculiar compromise in the first paragraph in the lead. "Parapsychologist" belongs in the initial sentence of this BLP, it's been successfully argued, based pretty much on WP:BALLS. The second sentence is permitted to say where he worked in the past as a biologist, but not that he's still a biologist, in the present tense or the present tense. Pretty shabby treatment for a living person, even if he's a living fringe theorist.

Please use your BLP glasses as well as your FRINGE-fighting ones. If you see fit, please help with that lead, getting biologist into the first sentence for a living person whose Ph.D. has not been revoked. Please also see if you think hypotheses and or theories can be permitted to be called by that names, even if these theories or hypotheses are clearly erroneous or even disproven. Honest-to-goodness, some of the folks here trying to keep us out of the "long grass" are not fanbois or believers in morphic resonance. Surely I'm not. But I am very much invested in BLP. I think it's paramount. That doesn't mean whatewashing anyones balls. But it does mean treating Sheldrake, as a living person, more gently than his theories. David in DC (talk) 02:12, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Guy (1) There is no excuse for incivility, nor admins turning a blind eye. (2) I am not aware of any editor here, who wants to exclude criticism of Sheldrake's work. My net contributions to the article include quotes supporting the mainstream view that Sheldrake's work is considered pseudoscience. Indeed, I don't think that any of my edits have been removed. However, we complete fail WP:BLP and fall into what your call "extreme skepticism" when we don't even mention, for example, that Sheldrake has a double first from Cambridge,[61][62] that he has a doctorate in biochemistry from Cambridge,[63] These are incontrovertible facts which you would expect to find in a biography of person. --Iantresman (talk) 11:18, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Iantresman: I agree with you on all the above points. Lou Sander (talk) 13:29, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Guy No way does WP:BALLS or Bogdanov situation apply. Sheldrake's hypothesis of morphic resonance originated as a way of explaining development from the egg, i.e. ontogeny. The idea is that developmental information, rather than being encoded in genes, is accessed by the embryo as a result of its similarity to previous embryos. Implicit in this view is that memory is not limited to stored information as in a book or a hard drive but reflects a general property of nature applicable to any organic process. Thus crystallization of a particular chemical compound, for instance, is likely to follow the pattern laid down by previous crystallizations of the same compound. Like Newton's theory of gravity, which Leibniz erroneously interpreted as a kind of magic, Sheldrake denies the exclusive role of contact mechanics and posits, in addition, a role for action at a distance. The difference is that natural memory via morphic resonance entails action at a distance over time, whereas gravity (particularly in Einstein's reformulation) entails action at a distance over space. Despite the response of the biological community, there's nothing inherently unscientific in any of this. Nor does Sheldrake use obscure academic language to cloak weakness in this hypothesis. This accusation seems to have been plucked from thin air. Alfonzo Green (talk) 19:57, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

WP:BALLS. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:14, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Repeating an already refuted point does not advance the discussion. By the way, even Wiseman refers to Sheldrake as a "competent scientist," which you'd know if you'd read the entire discussion with Tsakiris. Alfonzo Green (talk) 20:22, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I was not repeating Guys calling out Sheldrakes hokum. I was calling Complete Bullocks on the so called refutation. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:25, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a WP:BALLSWITHKNOBSON? Oh. --Roxy the dog (resonate) 20:55, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There is no dispute, if you have reliable sources stating that Sheldrake's work is balls, then we say so. I myself added the Maddox quote regarding Sheldrake's work being pseudo-science.[64] Likewise, if we scientists who are sympathetic or supportive of Sheldrake's work, we say so, and we can do so without given them undue weight, legitimacy and veracity, with the simple tool available to all editors, the English language. --Iantresman (talk) 23:35, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is such a non-issue -- Wiseman thinks, with many scientists, that Sheldrake's experiments are flawed. The quote is just out of context: "there may well be something going on" means that Wiseman believes something's going on with the experiment itself. I explained this earlier, and gave the same quote Rpod did. vzaak (talk) 01:29, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Your interpretation is so obviously wrong as to constitute evidence of anti-Sheldrake bias. Look again at Wiseman's quote: "Then the other problem is, that as the owner stays away from home for longer and longer, the dog will naturally go to the window for longer and longer. And so you need to have trials where you have short, medium and long return times. Now Rupert has that sort of data, but as far as I know, I haven’t got enough random trials that are long, medium, and short to make an absolute certain case that yes, indeed, the dog was picking up something. So I say by looking at his data, that yeah there may well be something going on." He's saying his own data was insufficient to show that the "the dog was picking up something" but that Sheldrake's data indicates "there may well be something going on." There is no ambiguity whatsoever in Wiseman's statement. So far no editor has provided any reason why the material should not be reinstated. The only useful suggestion I've received so far is to change "conceded" with a less loaded term such as "stated." Alfonzo Green (talk) 21:15, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, removing the context makes it appear as though Wiseman may suspect that dogs are telepathic. That is essentially what your edit does. In context, however, among the disconfirmatory clues are: "I think as is so much of his work, it’s very easy to look at it and go, yeah, a priori, that looks like there’s a cased something there, but things need to be done with a little bit more rigor and in this instance, that hasn’t happened." vzaak (talk) 21:58, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Alfonzo -- I tend to agree with folks here who say Wiseman does *not* support Sheldrake's conclusions, and in particular, that the something-going-on quote is talking about methodological *flaws* in the Sheldrake trials. So the quote you are citing cannot be used to say that Wiseman supports Sheldrake's conclusions, or even, supports additional research into the matter, cause that's not what Wiseman meant. Having never heard of the Wiseman stuff, I had to look it up, and ran across this master's thesis from Imperial College London, re-published by permission over here,[65] which studied the sociological and philosophy-of-science aspects of Sheldrake's trials and tribulations, taking a neutral stance on the truth or falsity of Sheldrake's theories about science.

    In particular, it says the data-patterns from both the 200 Sheldrake trials in 1994/1995 and the 4 Wiseman trials in 1995 matched, but Wiseman never acknowledged that publically, either when Wiseman first published (he analyzed one way which did not show the match at the time), or later, when Sheldrake performed a re-analysis of Wiseman's dataset that showed the match. Finally in 2007, Wiseman *did* admit the patterns matched, according to the dissertation on some radio show if memory serves (maybe your bolded quotes above), but even now Wiseman still maintains that the underlying factor is a methodological problem, and that interpretation of the data-sets need not invoke any morphic stuff whatsoever.

    While we see that Wiseman says 'more experiments needed' what he means is more experiments to overcome the methodological errors and prove more rigorously that Nothing Is Going On. That is all Wiseman's saying. As for the article at the moment, it just says that "Wiseman concluded" which is true flat-out in his original paper... if we can find a suitably WP:RS quote where Wiseman admits the re-analyzed patterns match, NPOV would suggest that a new sentence-or-fragment should be added, stating that based on later meta-analysis, Wiseman stood by his negative-confirmation conclusion, but on methodological grounds now, rather than flat-out. HTH.

    p.s. Sorry about the high-stress high-volume talkpage! We're working on making it WP:NICE again soon, but right now it is a WP:BATTLEGROUND. Please stick around, if you have the time; but nobody will blame you if you do not. Anyways, thanks for the focus on clear sources, it is helpful. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 01:11, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the reference to the Stevens paper. I've seen it before but lost track of it.

You note that you agree with the folks who say Wiseman does *not* support Sheldrake's conclusions. That's great. I happen to be one of those folks myself. I'm pretty sure everybody here understands that Wiseman disagrees with Sheldrake. The disputed quote in no way implies support for Sheldrake's conclusions. Wiseman does, however, support additional research into the matter. We know this because that's exactly what he says, and he says it because he wants additional research to refute Sheldrake's claim that the dog in question, Jaytee, can sense when his owner is returning home. The trouble is that Sheldrake's data, as Wiseman states, seems to indicate that "something was going on," i.e. that "the dog was picking up something."

I think we've gone around on this long enough to see that there are no serious objections to restoring the quote, though modified so as to be perfectly clear that Wiseman believes further research will refute Sheldrake's central claim. Alfonzo Green (talk) 23:57, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, okay, then we're basically on the same page. Some of your language was confusing to me above; prolly just a grammar-parsing-error on my end. However, you're still phrasing some things in this paragraph, that led me above (and ditto for TRPoD as well) that still don't sound quite right. We cannot really say that Wiseman 'supports' additional research... Wiseman is saying that his 4 trials, which had the same pattern as Sheldrake's 200 trials, are subject to interpretation. Wiseman says confounding factors aka methodological errors are the interpretation. Sheldrake says telepathy-slash-morphic is the interpretation. Wiseman believes a priori that Sheldrake is dead wrong, so when Wiseman says 'additional research' what he means is: Not Convinced. (Do we have a better source than skepticoDotWhatever where Wiseman goes on record that the re-analyzed patterns do statistically match?)

    Wiseman's position is that, if the hypothesis of telepathy *is* to be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, there would have to be more research performed, with more rigor, with stricter control of confounding variables, and with many many short/medium/long trials. Wiseman, a priori, expects that such research would be a total fail... i.e. would prove zero telepathy actually happened. In other words, Wiseman admits the statistical pattern matches, but still insists Sheldrake interprets it Dead Wrong, and that it still gives Zero Support For Telepathy -- and wikipedia cannot imply Wiseman says differently, even though (if we have a reliable source) we can point out that Wiseman suffers from severe WP:COI, and give the facts of how it was a decade before finally Wiseman fessed up about the patterns. But it is wrong to say this.

"Wiseman supports more experiments... [because] the dog was picking up something [telepathicaly]".

Which, even if you intended otherwise, is exactly what your quotes imply, which is why people are saying you're cherrypicking... just like Wiseman vs Sheldrake, it is all in the interpretation!  :-)   Here is what Wiseman is actually saying, methinks:

"Wiseman insists *Sheldrake* has the whole burden to perform many many many many more experiments with far greater depth and breadth and rigor and expense before Wiseman will ever be convinced of anything... despite finally admitting the data-patterns match Wiseman still insists Sheldrake is dead wrong, shifting from asserting pure pseudoscience to asserting somewhat-non-specific methodological errors, mainly that 'the dog [during the methodologically-flawed experiments by Wiseman and also the methodologically-flawed experiments by Sheldrake] was picking up something [non-telepathically which caused the patterns to be misleadingly interpreted]'. Wiseman thus says Sheldrake is interpreting the data-patterns incorrectly, to wishfully see 'something [telepathic] was going on' ... when in fact Wiseman interprets the data-patterns to say 'something [methodologically-flawed] was going on'.

End-quoth. That entire sentence above is very POV, plus horrid grammar, and no good for the article, which should have just the facts, and even more strictly, only those facts we can reliably source. We have an WP:RS-fact that Wiseman said, in 1995 or so, that Wiseman's 4 trials disproved Sheldrake's 200. If we want to add another sentence we need sources, and a neutral tone with just the facts.

"As of 2007, Wiseman said the data-patterns of his 4 trials actually match the data-patterns of Sheldrake's 200 trials, but Wiseman still says this proves nothing, and says methodological flaws in the 4 trials and the 200 trials are responsible for the data-patterns, remaining firmly unconvinced that any telepathy-like phenomena was detected in any way, and further insisting such a strong claim requires vastly more research than 204 flawed trials of the mid-1990s, for mainstream scientists to be convinced Sheldrake has shown anything beyond ability to reliably generated flawed data via flawed experimental techniques."

Well, okay *that* sentence is no good either, but we're getting closer. Putting this one into terse form will prolly not be my job.  :-)     Hope this helps clarify what is going on, however. Thanks. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 14:13, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've added the following sentence to Dogs That Know: "In a subsequent interview, Wiseman stated that his experiment generated the same pattern of data as Sheldrake's and that more experiments were needed to definitively overturn Sheldrake's conclusion that Jaytee had a psychic link with its owner." Before reverting this edit, please explain here why you think this misrepresents Wiseman. Alfonzo Green (talk) 18:23, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it didn't take long for Barney the barney barney to reverse my edit. In his reversal he states, "you have been previously warned about misrepresenting sources, and you're probably breaking 3RR now as well." Okay, Barney the barney barney, why don't you explain how my edit misrepresents Wiseman's position? Keep in mind that NPOV requires "complete information." Alfonzo Green (talk) 18:33, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Despite failing to explain how my edit misrepresents Wiseman, Barney the barney barney went to the Administrators Noticeboard and filed a bogus edit warring complaint, which is located here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:AN3#User:Alfonzo_Green_reported_by_User:Barney_the_barney_barney_.28Result:_Warned.29. Though my edit in no way misrepresents Wiseman, perhaps it could be improved, along the lines suggested by 74.192.84.101, by noting that Wiseman wanted subsequent testing to be more rigorous. Here's my proposed edit as of now: "Later, in a 2007 interview, Wiseman stated that his experiment generated the same pattern of data as Sheldrake's and that subsequent more rigorous experiments were needed to definitively overturn Sheldrake's conclusion that Jaytee had a psychic link with its owner." Without indicating that Wiseman's experiment replicated Sheldrake's data, we fail to provide complete information and therefore violate NPOV. Please discuss this change here. Alfonzo Green (talk) 19:19, 1 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The edit still selectively quotes Wiseman in a way that it is contrary to his position in the interview. He says that he and Sheldrake were "addressing two different questions" and "testing two different claims". And among other things Wiseman says: "I'm not that impressed with the data that Rupert's collected", "I think there are some methodological problems with it", "don't look to me quite as methodology rigorous as you would need", "things need to be done with a little bit more rigor and in this instance, that hasn't happened".

The edit also contains editorializing. There's nothing to overturn, much less "definitively overturn". Wiseman doesn't think highly of Sheldrake's experiments, nor does the scientific community in general.

This discussion is needless because the source is a self-published blog, which would disqualify it in any case. (In your citation you first gave a link to an unrelated Radin article, then changed it to a Wikipedia link; I don't know what's going on there.) The blog promotes energy healing, talking with spirits, alien contact, the whole bit. And there have been accusations of tampering, e.g.[66]. It is quite far from the WP standard for reliable sources. vzaak (talk) 14:33, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you:) I'm actually not going anywhere, I said that up above somewhere, I just would prefer the lede to be correct, with his correct job title then you can argue all you like further down his page:) Veryscarymary (talk) 21:53, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

What is his job, Mary? --Roxy the dog (resonate) 21:59, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

She likes the way Iantresman worded it -- biologist/researcher/writer/lecturer/parapsychologist/philospher/figureOfControversy. See here. Talk:Rupert_Sheldrake#suggestion 74.192.84.101 (talk) 14:13, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Please review this edit. The previous sentence says he's for questioning what he calls dogma. COE and perpetual motion are among the dogmas he advocates questioning. The change from "advocates questioning" to "also questions" is an example of what Guy, in the section just above this one, calls "the long grass of extreme skepticism" . It's enough to recount what his critics say accurately. It's too much to go beyond that. Please consider reverting. David in DC (talk) 11:15, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The material in question talks about the "fact" of conservation of energy. It is more usual to refer to it as a "law" or a "principle". The material formerly included a few words about why Sheldrake questions it, but they were removed without explanation. I don't have a big problem with saying that S. "questions" rather than "advocates questioning", but the latter seems more correct. I do have a problem with characterizing COE as something it is not. Lou Sander (talk) 13:20, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Quite, no scientist would talk about physics "facts" in this context. I am reminded of radioactivity being considered in violation of the conservation of energy, because mass-energy wasn't fully understood at the time, and perhaps the original proponents were mercilessly criticised for "violating" COE "facts". --Iantresman (talk) 18:12, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sheldrake is talking about Dark Energy and Dark Matter. His question is whether the conservation-of-energy law (which only includes non-dark-energy) applies at the scale of the universe, and is one of those speculations-about-things-which-science-may-someday-answer. See also Sheldrake's speculation about the subquantum nature of consciousness. Now, as a biochemist, his speculations about dark energy is reaching outside the area of his expertise... but not outside the realm of science. His speculation about consciousness is more in the biology-chemistry field, obviously, but his use of the subquantum as the meat of his speculation does push it into the physics field once again. Can somebody provide a ref-cite where Sheldrake is talking about perpetual motion, rather than just a brief mention of it?

   My understanding is that his ideas (or maybe just brief aside) about perpetual motion are not really related to his ideas about *energy* (which would prolly more truthfully be called his *questions* about energy), but rather are related to his ideas about how-science-funding-infrastructure-ought-to-be-revolutionized. From what I can grok, Sheldrake's suggestion is that instead of banning papers about perpetual motion -- or of course telepathy-like stuff -- that instead it is more productive to 'fund' them as X Prize-type challenges. In other words, whoever discovers a perpetual motion machine, which outputs more energy than it takes in, as proven by a board of 100 mainstream scientists selected by the NSF who study said research for a year, the NSF will award the inventor one billion dollars. Short of that, no funding. So, if it turns out perpetual motion is possible, and mainstream science has been wrong however many decades-or-centuries-or-whatever, then the NSF is out a billion, but hey, we get infinite energy, so good deal. On the other hand, it costs the NSF nothing, if it really is impossible, and might help channel voluntary private funds into supercolliders and dark energy research and such, so it's either a draw or a minor win.

   Anyways, at least for COE, think I agree with David that Sheldrake advocates questioning it, and in particular, advocates questioning whether COE applies to dark energy or not. He's not personally interested in pursuing that research, is this correct? He's just trying to loosen up the funding-infrastructure, so that he (and others in the future) can pursue the stuff he does want to research. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 00:19, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The conservation of energy and the impossibility of perpetual motion are facts. That's all there is to it. They are just about as factual as almost anything you care to say. They are also foundational principles, but when Sheldrake questions them he is questioning facts. He even owns up to this. The arguments being made above are trying to give an out for this uncomfortable situation, but I don't see how this is possible. jps (talk) 18:12, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that is correct, mainstream science views them as unassailable facts, and thus wikipedia (being a mirror of what mainstream reliable sources say) must reflect them as such; we don't even say "the impossibility of perpetual motion is a fact" because we can say more tersely "perpetual motion... is impossible in practice", right? Right. (I was surprised to see the 'in practice' qualifier... but then, I thought about computer simulations of perpetual motion in a frictionless universe, or theoretical models, or whatnot.) So nobody here disagrees about what wikipedia ought say, scientifically speaking.

    My contention here is that Sheldrake is holding a minority-view-position in the philosophy-of-science, which says that treating *anything* as unassailable, is a mistake. He suggests that experiments in dark energy are hindered (theoretically/philosophically speaking) by an inability to question the law of COE, and suggests further that funding for ideas (including unassailably unscientific ones... as long as dark energy turns out identical to known energy that is... things like perpetual motion) is better done on a winner-take-all X prize basis, rather than the current basis where bureaucratic gatekeepers in university politics (deans) or in federal politics (NSF) are the ones holding the purse-strings, and the ones deciding what is and what is not science. Anyhoo, as for giving Sheldrake 'an out' to say something without getting hammered to a pulp... I guess I am arguing for that... because mainstream-scientists are the wrong hammer, to be using on a philosophy-position that Sheldrake holds.

    He's got a book about Angels, and spirituality, and such. Should we hold his theology to the same scientific standard we hold his physics theory? Methinks clearly the answer is no-friggin-way. The philosophical stance, and political stance, that Sheldrake has on how research ought to be funded is *not* the same thing as him doing such research. He is interested in phytomorphology, and interested in consciousness, and does research in such areas. He's not claiming to have built a perpetual motion machine, or that anybody ever may... he's just saying, we'll get better ROI from our science-funding infrastructure, if we stop relying on gatekeepers, who hold the purse-strings and define what is unassailable and what is not, and instead try something else.

    Probably, Sheldrake has views on politics, too... and should they ever become notable, I would hope that we wikipedians don't insist *those* ideas about politics be mainstream-scientific in the same way we would insist some new theory about co-evolution, for instance.

    Anyhoo, I don't disagree we should present the facts, and point out where Sheldrake is disagreeing with the facts... if he *is*. In this specific case, he is clearly not, rather, he's philosophizing about them, and whether there *should* be things we treat as facts. Mainstream scientists disagree... as do *some* but not all mainstream philosophers (Ayn Rand fans would probably put Sheldrake on their blacklist... but many postmodernists would count him as the allied forces, right?). Point being, the mainstream *philosophers* are the ones we should be citing here, so that readers don't get confused about the clear distinction between Sheldrake's theories about science and Sheldrake's theories about philosophy-n-politics-of-science ... although of course it also behooves us to point out that COE is generally considered unassailable among mainstream scientists, once again, so that readers do not get confused. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 00:20, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Not actually sure inviolable is a word? Anyhoo, obviously this is not a suggested rewrite, because it needs slimming and cites, and prolly a grammar-check. But I hope it gets across the point I'm trying to make: Sheldrake does not question conservation of energy, but he *wants* people to be able to. Of course, the subtext being, if some research on perpetual motion is funded, then the decision as to whether or not telepathy-and-morphogenetic-research will be funded is a no-brainer.  :-) &nbsp HTH. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 02:05, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think I agree that his motivation for wanting to "allow" the questioning of the conservation of energy is his desire to increase his own visibility, but the essential thrust, then, is that Sheldrake sees nothing wrong with contradicting certain facts, and so that's basically what we ought to write. To say he does not "question" these facts is, I think, splitting hairs. If Sheldrake doesn't question these facts then it should be easy to find a source where he says so unequivocally because the sources I'm reading are easily supporting the opposite contention. jps (talk) 21:26, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, before we get to what we want to write, please first enlighten me then -- which sources are you reading, that say Sheldrake really does question COE as part of his science-theory-role, rather than as advocate such thing as part of his philosopher-about-stuff role? I've seen him say something like 'COE is not as well-supported in biological creatures as in conventional mechanical physics experiments' or something along those lines... but it's a far cry from saying 'COE is more full of holes than swiss cheese', right? If we can get quotes, that show us what Sheldrake *does* think, especially if he says so unequivocally, then all the better. But the only stuff I've seen is him philosophizing. The stuff in the TEDx talk was related to this, right? The whole new book thing. What source, and what page, gives you the impression you have? Thanks 74.192.84.101 (talk) 05:27, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I see no sources that distinguish between different roles for Sheldrake. If Sheldrake really said, "COE is not as well-supported in biological creatures as in conventional mechanical physics experiments", then I would be interested to read that as well. I'm not sure how to tell the difference between when Sheldrake is philosophizing and he is reporting his interpretations of empirical evidence. If you know of a source that can explain how do to this, please show it to me too. jps (talk) 17:59, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The Sokal sentence has morphed into something weird.

1. The Sokal hoax revolves around a joke paper. The article must unambiguously specify that this is a joke paper. Sokal didn't write a paper that some claim to be a joke while others dispute its jokiness. The Wikipedia article Sokal hoax does not put "hoax" in quotes. It is a hoax. Placing "preposterous essay" in quotes falsely implies that it is just someone's opinion that the thing was fake, giving an aura of possible legitimacy to it.
2. The phrase "preposterous essay" is not even in the source.
3. Why does the google link give a search for "pepperoni"? This is either a meta-joke on top of the Sokal joke, or a sign that one shouldn't edit Wikipedia on an empty stomach!
4. Of what use are the two additional references? I don't understand this. We need but one reference to establish the context of the hoax.
5. Please use the {{cite}} templates when adding references.
6. The sentence in question introduces the term "morphic field", which is undefined in the article. The article could define it, but until it does, saying "ideas are cited prominently" or some such should be sufficient, no? "Cited prominently" doesn't mean literal citations, which are never prominent.
7. The Sokal article doesn't mention "morphic field"; the term is "morphogenetic field". Using this term in the article would carry even more complexity because the article would necessarily have to distinguish it from morphogenetic field, a term biologists use for something different. Again, maybe that could be explained somewhere in the article, but not in the Sokal sentence. At least in the short term, avoiding "morphogenetic field" is the simplest path.

vzaak (talk) 00:58, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ummm, the phrase "preposterous essay" is in the George Will column republished in the book I've linked to. He also calls it "hilarious" and, in general, does a great job of explaining just how much of a joke it was.

Pepperoni is in the search string because the word appears on the page we want. It appears only once in the book, on exactly the right page. It's not a meta joke. It's a precision citation device. Sorry for the confusion. I'd have no objection to changing the graf entirely. But I was aiming only for one small thing. If the word preposterous was to remain, I firmly believed (and believe) it should not be in wikipedia's voice. So I went looking for who called it preposterous. I found out it was George Will. So I cited it to him. David in DC (talk) 01:25, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

But Wikipedia calls it a hoax without quotes. This is not a point of contention. Wikipedia can say hoaxes are hoaxes, and doesn't need to attribute its hoaxiness to a particular author's words. The source given establishes the hoax beyond doubt. It's a fact that it's a hoax, and WP should assert facts. Would "joke paper" be better? Is it just the tone?

The phrase "preposterous essay" is not in the source.

To cite a particular page, use the link icon in Google Books. I usually remove the cruft before and after &pg=PA123, except for '?id=...' of course, like this: http://books.google.com/books?id=QkcuQFBXLFQC&pg=PA86 . vzaak (talk) 01:40, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have a Bacon-Erdos number, but I claim a Sokal number of 2 !!--Roxy the dog (resonate) 02:01, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That's nothin'. Hammerin' Hank Aaron had an Erdos number of 1. See Paul_Erdős#Erd.C5.91s_numberDavid in DC (talk) 02:08, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

How's this? I've used the words "hilarious hoax", "preposterous" and parody, taken directly from the source. I've changed the wikilink to Sokol affair, avoiding a redirect. I've used the phrase "faux scientific paper" instead of "joke paper". I've used a google search string that omits pepporoni and substitutes "hilarious hoax" and "preposterous". If you like your way better, I won't be offended, either one takes us to exactly the same place. Mine just puts the yellow highlighting on the words actually being quoted.

I've also rearranged things. The order is no longer chronological, but it's not far off; sticking Sokol beiween Bohm and Durr had me humming the old Sesame Street tune "One of these things is not like the other.David in DC (talk) 02:03, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good to me. That's really I wanted -- to designate it as being in a different category than the others. Now, can we remove those two extra references? Why were they added? vzaak (talk) 02:22, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Dunno. I didn't add them. If you think they provide nothing, go ahead and delete. However, I'm chary of leaving a George Will editorial, even one that includes significant reportage, as a sole source. I'd suggest sorting through the others (I count three, rather than two) and deleting the least helpful. David in DC (talk) 02:36, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

TRPoD is the one who added the 'morphic field' language recently, attempting to appease my complaints. They were not appeased, but nobody else managed to penetrate my wall-of-text. The extra two refs were also added. Page nums were *not* added, at any point. Actual quotes from Sokal being *serious* about his take on Sheldrake's work are also missing. This is the key point: merely being in the sokal hoax-paper is not sufficient to indicate the person cited or their work mentioned is bogus. Wikipedia implies the opposite, which is POV, and misleading, and flat untrue. The section-title is also POV, since it implies Sheldrake is not a scientist.

SubSectionTitle: Academic Career. BodyText: (same as what is already in that section now -- up through the 1990s where this is inserted.) In 1996,[1][2][3] Sheldrake's 1981 and 1991 works on his morphic field theory, along with a preposterous admixture of famous scientists like Einstein with famous post-modernists like Derrida, was prominently featured in the third section of Alan Sokal's purposely-falsified hoax-paper. The hoax-paper was written explicitly[citation needed] as an experiment to criticize sloppy science, in particular post-modernist sans-peer-review social science. Years later,^[when?] in a book detailing the hoax, Sokal gave the following serious explanation of his actual position^[6] as a physicist: "Sheldrake's theory of 'morphogenetic fields', though popular in New Age circles, hardly qualifies as 'in general sound'."

For contrast:

SubSectionTitle: Interactions with notable scientists (unlike sheldrake the we-refuse-to-call-a-scientist-nyah-nyah). In a different vein, Sheldrake's work featured prominently in a faux scientific paper written by Alan Sokal, submitted to Social Text and published there in 1996 as if it represented true scientific research.[73] Writing about what has come to be known as the Sokal affair, George Will called the parody a "hilarious hoax" and "preposterous".[74]

If somebody wishes to have a sentence, or a sentence fragment, about *why* Sheldrake was picked for the hoax-article, that 'why' must be sourced, with page-num. Simply saying, Sheldrake's in there, is meaningless... because you can replace Sheldrake with Einstein, Bohr, Heisenberg, Kuhn, Durr, Derrida, Irgavay, and so on. HTH. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 04:13, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If you have an appetite for endless scanning of references, try THIS, which is one from the Sokal hoax article. In it, Sokal says "Throughout the article, I employ scientific and mathematical concepts in ways that few scientists or mathematicians could possibly take seriously. For example, I suggest that the "morphogenetic field" -- a bizarre New Age idea due to Rupert Sheldrake -- constitutes a cutting-edge theory of quantum gravity. This connection is pure invention; even Sheldrake makes no such claim." The guy was spoofing the stupid journal editors, and used S. and many others as part of his spoof. Of course, the "bizarre New Age idea" stuff can be used by Wikipedia editors to demean S., bring the New Age stuff up, etc. Maybe people could just concentrate on writing a fair BLP, rather than mining the Internet for negative references and schlepping them into the article. Lou Sander (talk) 04:45, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Lou, we can use the part that says "bizarre New Age idea" as something that Sokal actually seriously thinks about morpho-stuff. But we cannot say "Sheldrake in Sokal-hoax-paper therefore Sheldrake is pure invention" because that is not what Sokal said. The sentences you quote, except for the four words I mention, are Sokal describing how the hoax-paper mixes up and screws up concepts everywhere, including specifically the claim MorphoGenetic==QuantumGravity. Sokal does not believe it. Sheldrake does not believe it. Your own quote says Sokal knows Sheldrake does not believe it. If we want to mention Sokal's opinion on Sheldrake's morphogenetics, which is valid because Sokal is a famous physicist and morph-stuff spans physics+biochem, fine. But it has to be Sokal's serious opinion! By definition, the contents of the hoax-paper ARE NOT serious, and merely being cited therein is meaningless (Einstein/Irgavay/etc). Am I making sense? 74.192.84.101 (talk) 12:38, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, you make perfect sense. One wonders why the Sokal stuff is in the article at all, let alone in its present misleading format. And how many references, both distorted and not, do we need to show that "The concept of Morphic Resonance has been examined and forcefully rejected by numerous mainstream scientists; it has received little support outside Sheldrake's immediate circle"? Lou Sander (talk) 13:17, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I originally wondered why the Sokal sentence was in the article at all (hence my "pov screw-up" section), but after plenty of discussion, there *are* sources that explain Sokal's serious position on morph-stuff, and because Sokal is a famous physicist, and because morpho-stuff delves into physics, Sokal's serious view on morpho-stuff belongs in the article. And his serious view is, that sheldrake's ideas are bizarre, new-age (later qualified to popular among new-age-folks ... which *is* an important correction that e.g. User:SqueakBox was confused about coming in to the talkpage). Sokal's other views on the physics-related ideas used in the morpho-stuff is that there is no evidence for it (as of 2001 or whenever Sokal wrote that), and that the morpho-stuff is nowhere near being generally sound, and that it is very speculative. This is harsh, but fair. Nobody has evidence for subquantum. Sheldrake's stuff *is* very speculative. But nowhere does Sokal say that Sheldrake is not a scientist (he always calls him a biologist or biochemist or similar). Nowhere does Sokal say that Sheldrake's work is fringe, or pseudoscience... although calling it bizarre comes pretty close.  :-) Anyways, as the article is written now, just like when I complained, it uses the *hoax*-paper to explain Sokal's views on morpho-stuff, which is just totally broken. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 14:08, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The section A New Science of Life and The Presence of the Past has been split into two. As the anchor indicates, this is where morphic resonance was given full treatment: definition, the Maddox deal, and scientific reaction. The link morphic resonance went to that place.

After the split, we have morphic resonance pointing to something that doesn't give the full treatment of morphic resonance. The scientific reaction is awkwardly placed in the later section The Presence of the Past. It's just out of place there. I would move to combine the sections as they were; the Maddox deal may remain in the middle or placed later; that doesn't matter to me. As far as I know, the original 1981 book included little or no experiments, so we can't just move the scientific reaction paragraph to the one-book-only A New Science of Life section. vzaak (talk) 01:11, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'd oppose deleting the split. I think the reaction of Maddox to the first book is important enough to be treated under a separate subheading. It provides much-needed context for both the way it places morphic resonance outside of the mainstream and the way Sheldrake's ability to attract publicity seems to enflame incendiery reaction.

The paragraph and heading structure here, I argue, is more important than the anchoring device. Since I agree with Barney and others that creating a separate "Morphic resonance" POVFORK would be a bad idea, I'd suggest "Morphic resonance" be simply made a redirect term to this article, instead of to one article section. Many editors have already opined that, but for Morphic resonance, Sheldrake would not be notable. I'm not sure I agree, but I'm willing to concede the point if we can keep the book for burning subhed and change the anchoring device for Morphic resonance. David in DC (talk) 02:26, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Let's put aside the Maddox part; that's not where I have issue. The problem is the criticism paragraph being shoved into the Presence of the Past section. It's just weird there. It suggests the criticism perhaps applies only to that book, not morphic resonance generally. A section covering its definition as well as its criticism is more appropriate (and incidentally what WP policies state about scientific reaction being prominent). vzaak (talk) 02:38, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There has been a recent addition of headings in the books section. This arrangement is very straightforward and easily understood by readers and editors. We now have:

Books

Morphic resonance books

MR book #1

Big flap over MR book #1

MR book #2

Telepathy, etc. books

T book #1

T book #2

Questioning modern science books

Q book #1

There are some problems: 1) there is no section anywhere on MR all by itself, either under Books or anywhere else; 2) criticisms of books in various categories have been confounded, e.g., criticism of T books appears under MR book #2. If this were fixed, the article would be much improved. Lou Sander (talk) 14:04, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

While I agree such an arrangement could benefit readers, I have practical concerns that I think -- unfortunately -- torpedo the plan. First,I do not think we can split books into morphic-books and telepathy-books. Sheldrake's core theory is that, roughly, baby plants grow into a certain adult shape partly because of DNA and partly because of 'unconscious telepathy' with existing adult plants (or maybe with atoms in general or somesuch). This is not in any way consciousness, as a normal reader would think of it, but it resembles the 'universal consciousness is everywhere' sort of new-age-thinking, right? But the sheldrake stuff, not the new-age-interpretation, is actually just straightforward: adult plant X has a specific physical shape, which gives of gravitational attraction, plus speculatively some subquantum stuff, and the baby plant Xprime, being composed of similar components in a similar arrangement, resonates with the adult-shape. Very hand-wavy of course, but that's the gist of the idea. Same for insulin, termites, pigeons... and mammals. I *do* think that questioning-modern-mechanistic-science is a separate category (though I doubt his *books* can be so separated since presumably they all have *some* morphic stuff in them). Under the questioning-group we have the philosophy-of-science stuff about advocating questioning conservation of energy w.r.t. dark energy, and we also have the (very distinct) books on spirituality e.g. Angels. Basically, though, at the end of the day, I think we are going to end up with the article organized by book-title, rather than by type-of-concept (with books where that concept was mentioned getting listed on a per-concept basis rather than vice versa). It is too difficult to flip things around, because WP:RS covers books, not concepts. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 22:44, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

David, it's not quite true that "Sheldrake's morphic resonance hypothesis, as described in these two books and his subsequent writing and lectures...". Every book mentioned in the Books section covers morphic resonance in one way or another. It's not right to lump just those two books under morphic resonance. I've restored the old headings, moved the criticism paragraph to the ANSL section, and added a note about evidence in the 2009 reissue and other books. With the supportive words from the review Barney just added, I think it works out pretty well. vzaak (talk) 15:56, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In both case discussed yesterday morning, making sure the Sokal affair was a joke and keeping "A book for burning" under its own heading, my edits were initial reactions to conversation on this page. In both cases, subsequent edits improved on my first stabs. Thank you. David in DC (talk) 10:41, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Please read this one more time. Adding the tag involves following the steps therein. In particular note the last point (bold added), "The neutral point of view is determined by the prevalence of a perspective in high-quality, independent, reliable secondary sources, not by its prevalence among Wikipedia editors or the public." What are the "specific issues that are actionable within the content policies"? This should be stated concisely and should include sources. If your response requires 16,000 characters then it is almost certainly on the wrong track. vzaak (talk) 18:20, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know. I've added several sources that are supportive of Sheldrake, and have a few more as well. Even Sheldrake's fans should admit that the criticism of him has been harsh (of course they think it's unfair, but that's not for us to judge). There's nothing in the article that is incorrect, nothing that is unsourced, nothing that is unfair per WP:FRINGE. The NPOV tag seems to be a way in which Sheldrake's fans can try to warn people that the article is unreliable, and therefore not to be trusted. And they edit warred it to the top of the page. Barney the barney barney (talk) 19:33, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'd be happy to remove it. It shouldn't be there anyway. --Roxy the dog (resonate) 19:58, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, vzaak, we agree that the article must obey the bulk of the sources. Two specific actionable issues are below, in their own comments, so they can have subcomments specific to the points inline. Thanks for improving wikipedia. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 23:00, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

1. "Sheldrake is an author, lecturer and parapsychologist.[3][4][5] From 1967 to 1973 he was a UCambridge biochemist, was ICRISAT plant physiologist 1974-1978." This sentence fails NPOV. The bulk of the sources call Sheldrake a biologist & author, or a biochemist & author. The three sources that call him a parapsychologist are, from what I can tell, the *only* three. Cherrypicking. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 23:00, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

2. Same foundational sentence. Besides obliterating his scientific title ("is" author but "was" biochemist), it also omits NPOV mention of his highly respectable scientific accolades. PhD, postdoc, Harvard fellow, Royal Society fellow, Botany Prize. His mainstream-scientific career is trimmed on both ends: he became a grad-student circa 1964, and was a consulting physiologist until 1985. Plus, of course, there are his *recent* experiments, and his recent academic activities in CT and Trinity. This is non-neutral, and especially serious in BLP-world. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 23:00, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yet the facts are presented; he had one career in academia, and then went freelance. Btw, Sheldrake has *never* been elected as a Royal Society Fellow, which is one of the highest honours a scientist can receive, as it indicates that other fellows greatly respect your work. Typical complaining from a Sheldrake fan (who can't be bothered to log in). Your habit of pasting rambling monologues on this talk page isn't very helpful either. Barney the barney barney (talk) 23:06, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm with vzaak on this one: citation needed. Your opinion is that Sheldrake left science (and your opinion is that 'being in academia' is mandatory for being a scientist). Cite me a source that says "after 1978, Sheldrake is no longer a scientist". Cite me some sources from the last couple of years that introduce him as a parapsychologist and author, rather than a biologist and author. Are you quibbling about the difference between being *in* the Royal Society, and being a Fellow of the Royal Society, or are you claiming that Sheldrake lies through his teeth when he says he was a Royal Society Fellow? p.s. I'll continue to ignore your breach of WP:NPA; have some more WP:ROPE. The sad thing is, we are on the same side, but to you, this is just WP:BATTLEGROUND and time to WP:RGW. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 23:16, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It is customary in an NPOV dispute to refer to distribution of opinions - not to dispute clear facts. However, you are disputing facts. Quite clearly he worked for academic institutions, and then he didn't. This is documented, disputing it is extremely foolish. Vzaak (talk · contribs) has got much more of a clue than you do. Barney the barney barney (talk) 23:22, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's customary to be tolerant of rambling monologues, if they are polite, sensible, and lead to a better Wikipedia. It's customary to be intolerant of personal attacks. Lou Sander (talk) 23:46, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Lou, don't stoop to the same level. WP:NICE please; my skin is plenty thick enough. :-)     Barney, I notice you ignored every single question I asked. Consider them to be re-asked. Do you have a citation, or do you not? There is such a thing as a lie of omission. Either the bulk of reliable sources refer to Sheldrake as a biologist (or sometimes biochemist), or they do not. Either only a few reliable sources refer to Sheldrake as a parapsychologist, or I am wrong. You can prove me wrong by providing some sources in the 2011/2012/2013 timeframe which prove me wrong. WP:NPA does not prove a thing, relevant to the article, at least. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 23:49, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Lou Sander (talk · contribs) I entirely agree. The endless whining on this page by Sheldrake's fans, including Tumbleman (talk · contribs) and others, is incessant, it is tiring, it is extremely childish, and it is against policy. The points 74 raises are extremely ridiculous and he needs to be ignored, as your userpage suggests. Barney the barney barney (talk) 23:55, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, thanks for admitting that you are ignoring my straightforward, good faith questions on purpose. I also note that you are once again engaging in WP:NPA, and making a subtle threat to ban me for endless rambling. Rather than continue further, I suggest we have a brief WP:POLL, as a means to guide us toward consensus. Those in favor of discussion on Sheldrake's proper title, as being biologist/biochemist as I say the bulk of sources use, or parapsychologist as Barney prefers (and as the article is currently written), please comment with supportThatDiscussion, and those who believe the question is extremely ridiculous and should be ignored, please comment with declineThatDiscussion. To avoid votestacking, only folks who have edited this talkpage or the article in the past month ... regardless of whether they were insta-reverted or not ... should vote in the poll, please. I think this is a pretty stark choice, but anybody that feels the need to justify, can also add a non-poll comment here. Newcomers (or 'oldcomers') may comment, if they wish, of course. Once we've gotten a majority out of a quorum of ten, I'll consider the matter settled. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 00:34, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment. It is important that there is consensus on Sheldrake's status as a biologist/scientist. Whether he is also a parapsychologist is less important, and unrelated. I have a concern that those responding that he is a biologist will be called names, reported to authorities, accused of being fanbois, etc., and that if there is a consensus it will be ignored. It's not that I mind being the victim of that stuff, but promoting it through honest responses is SO unrewarding. Why support an uncivil discussion that leads nowhere? Lou Sander (talk) 02:41, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment. (Yes, I'm sure that is the case. Since I am at no risk of being subjected to WP:9STEPS, I am more than willing to stick my neck out, and say Sheldrake is a biologist/biochemist, just like the bulk of the sources say, and insist it *must* be in the first sentence, where currently biologist has been replaced by parapsychologist, for POV reasons, or just by accident during the edit-wars.)

    However, this WP:POLL is merely and simply and ONLY about whether it is *permissible* to discuss the matter (biologist-vs-parapsychologist) on the talkpage, or not.

Barney has attempted to drive off VeryScaryMary, and is now attempting to silence myself, through all sorts of policy-violations. I'm not really interested in how many supportThatDiscussion votes show up, but rather in how many folks will join Barney in crossing the line. Specifically, this line -- Wikipedia:TE#One_who_ignores_or_refuses_to_answer_good_faith_questions_from_other_editors. Nobody should vote supportThatDiscussion, if you fear retribution. BUT NOBODY SHOULD FEAR THAT, and the fact that people do, and that Barney would dare use the tactics he repeatedly uses, is clear evidence that this article is a basket-case. I intend to fix it. Anybody that votes declineThatDiscussion is not being WP:NICE, and I'm one of the Pillar Four Nazis that demands everybody be nice. Anyways, Lou, please feel no obligation to vote supportThatDiscussion. Let's just sit back and see who votes declineThatDiscussion. HTH. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 03:03, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• supportThatDiscussion Lou Sander (talk) 13:06, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(I have split some portions that are not part of the WP:POLL, into their own new section here. If somebody objects, please say so here in this section, and I'll try to fix it up to satisfy. Danke.) 74.192.84.101 (talk) 14:24, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In my view, the NPOV tag is justified until and unless the question of whether BLP requires that "biologist" or "scientist" be included in the lede, in the present tense, relying on the sources. The arguments against acknowledging that Sheldrake is a biologist are all in the nature of "he had two careers, the one as a scientist are in the past" or "scientists do science" or "Sheldrake stopped doing science years ago." But those requires WP;SYNTH with a fair dose of a skeptic's POV.

In contrast, there are numerous reliable sources that call Sheldrake a biologist, in the present tense, written long after he started advocating MR. I haven't seen one that says Sheldrake is no longer a biologist. He hasn't been excommunicated from the Church (or Mosque or Synagogue) of Science, he hasn't been defrocked, his degrees have not been declared null and void.

Wikipedia should rely on the sources. Sources call him a biologist. Sources that dispute, debunk, disprove or disdain Sheldrake do not say "he's not a scientist" or "he's not a biologist". They say he's egregiously wrong, but that's a different thing. And it's made quite clear in the article (and even in the lede) why it's fair to say he's wrong. There are sources for that. But there are none to support the assertion that he should not be called a biologist and ander both BLP and NPOV, it's against policy to withhold that descriptor. David in DC (talk) 11:24, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I agree:) xx Veryscarymary (talk) 10:34, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

David,

• WP:SYNTH refers to statements expressing logical implication in the article. Weighing sources and making judgments are a necessary part of editing Wikipedia; this is not WP:SYNTH, otherwise no work could get done.

• I can counter many of your assertions by cutting & pasting what I wrote before: Under the parapsychologist refs: the first ref is from Nature and says "parapsychologist" without mentioning biologist/biochemist/etc; the second ref is from New Scientist and says "biochemist-turned-parapsychologist"; the third ref is from Nature and says "former biochemist".

• The argument I made earlier has still not been addressed (cut&paste again): The question is: What do we do when faced with conflicting sources? Discussing the "controversy" in the opening sentence is not feasible, of course, so we must decide. The problem of "picking the sources you like" cuts both ways. One criteria would be to use the strongest, most respected sources, and on that criteria Nature is the winner.

• Calling Sheldrake a biologist would be misleading since biologists are understood to be WP:PROFs or otherwise involved in biology. Sheldrake is neither. For five years he was funded by a grant through Trinity, but as the first Nature reference[3] makes painfully clear, it's inappropriate to affiliate him with Trinity even for those years.

• There is no such thing as the "skeptical POV" as far as editing WP is concerned. There is only the mainstream view and the fringe view. The important thing is to clearly distinguish between them; this means editors must make reasonable judgments. The fringe view is that Sheldrake is a regular biologist who is unfairly treated, who causes anger in mainstream scientists because of their dogmatism, who has proof of morphic resonance that is not recognized because of a "scientific priesthood" with an "authoritarian mentality", etc. The mainstream view is exceedingly different. WP is a mainstream encyclopedia; it reflects the mainstream view and does not confer equal validity to fringe views.

vzaak (talk) 12:49, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

vzaak, you use the word mainstream science several times above. If we could the phrase mainstream science and/or mainstream biology in the article, to differentiate Sheldrake's views from the mainstream, I think almost everything else would be easily resolved. But whever I've tried I've been swatted down, told there's no such thing as mainstream science. There's just science. And differentiating Sheldrake's stuff from science by calling the latter mainstream science elevates FRINGE or woo or hogwash or bollocks to an impersibble level.

"Mainstream" is the way out our quandary. You seem comforable with it. If you want to see the skeptical POV (which, according to Guy even comes in an extreme version, lurking in long grass) in action, try putting "mainstream" in the article to describe Sheldrake's debunkers. Hey, User:IRWolfie-, would you care to help us here? If you and I can both agree to the utility of Vzaak's use of "mainstream" on this talk page, maybe we can lead the way toward stabilizing this article.David in DC (talk) 00:49, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I am leaving. I wish you well, IRWolfie- (talk) 00:52, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the apology. I accept it in the same gracious spirit in which it has been offered, and wish you well, as well. David in DC (talk) 01:16, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Vzaak, you seem to be having the discussion about biologist-vs-parapsychologist, but you are not contributing a response to my poll. Is your policy to ignore me, and thus implicitly side with Barney? As to your sources, which are of course WP:RS, what are the dates on them? Any sources in the 2011/2012/2013 timeframe, such as the ones provided by VeryScaryMary? We should not take out your sources, or her sources, but wikipedians cannot cherrypick, we must mirror what the sources say, and when they conflict, describe the conflict, never decide the winner and the loser. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 14:33, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Vzaak wrote: ...otherwise involved in biology" That is your key, by the way. Sheldrake has been 'otherwise' involved in biology/physics/etc, as a theorizer, as a shoe-string experimenter, as a popularizer, and as a lecturer... plus the Trinity-College-bequest-money, plus the LearnDotEdu visiting professorship. He has *also* simultaneously been involved in parapsychology (various subject-specific journals plus the Noetic thing if I understand it correctly), and most of his talks/books/etc have a strong dose thereof. Outside his scientific theories, and his pseudoscientific pseudotheories... he has (simultaneously again more or less) published ideas in spirituality slash theology, concepts in the philosophy-of-science and the politics-of-science-funding, concepts related to philosophy-of-mind and consciousness, et cetera. The only reason anybody in the wider world pays attention to all that stuff, is because sheldrake has such highly respectable mainstream credentials.

    That is the story of this BLP, as neutral as I can make it. Wikipedia must tell the NPOV story, whether mine, or a variation like David's. Not the one you (correctly) portray as pro-sheldrake, the genius-scientist shunned by the bad-priests-of-science-who-themselves-are-not-as-qualified-as-sheldrake. (Only wikipedia's and maybe Wiseman's actions lend credence to that myth btw.) But also not the misleading story that the article *currently* portrays as 'neutral' but is in fact exactly from the skeptic-POV-consensus with minimal varnish, synthesizing sheldrake as 'no longer fit to be called a biologist' and trying to downplay how many books he has published by glomming/hiding the stuff deep in the middle of the article, plus of course most dangerously from the WP:BLP point of view, attempting to discredit the *ideas* by way of discrediting the *BLP*. Hope this helps. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 17:31, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Barney the barney barney, why should 74's points be ignored? What is your rationale for cherry-picking sources that describe Sheldrake as a parapsychologist, while excluding those that call him a biochemist? --Joshua Issac (talk) 12:01, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

thanks Joshua Isaac (talk · contribs) - Actually, on reflection,I don't think we should be "calling him" anything; thinking about it my preferred wording would be to drop parapsychologist as any sort of primary designation, and describe him as an author on "science-related issues" (we shouldn't endorse what he writes as scientific but nor should we categorically label it as pseudoscience as his critics do). The next bit then goes into briefly explain the extent of his career while employed in academia, the second part into his claims about "morphic resonance" and the consequences of that. Barney the barney barney (talk) 13:09, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's a safe bet my suggestion above that we adopt "mainstream" from vzaak's post above will be roundly hooted down or just plain ignored. If I'm wrong, swell. But if I'm right, I think Barney has just pointed another way out of the long grass. It answers vzaak's question about what we do when the sources conflict just as well as "mainstream" would. David in DC (talk) 01:05, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think it would be best to say that: "Sheldrake is an author and lecturer who qualified as a biochemist, but now writes and talks about his research in the field of parapsychology, and his views on the philosophy of science." --Iantresman (talk) 13:29, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm on record above supporting the removal of "parapsychologist". How about something like: "Sheldrake is an author, lecturer, and former biochemist who writes and talks about his views on science and his research in the field of parapsychology." vzaak (talk) 14:38, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If you have a source which says "former biochemist", sure, we can add it as a third-minority-view, under the majority view of biologist/biochemist (sourced), and the minority-view of parapsychologist (sourced). 74.192.84.101 (talk) 14:53, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Barney, no, wikipedia does not work that way. We do not drop the WP:RS calling sheldrake a parapsychologist, and we do not drop the far more numerous WP:RS calling him a biologist/biochemist/etc. We mirror what the sources say. We cannot decide to pick and choose the sources we wish. Ian, "qualified as" is the same thing as "former". If you want to say "qualified as", do you have a WP:RS saying exactly that? 74.192.84.101 (talk) 14:37, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• I would argue that "qualified as" is not quite the same thing. He has qualified as a biochemist. But perhaps you're right, we just need to do a source count. Even those that say he is a parapsychologist do not imply that he is not a biologist, only that he is a biologist working in the field the parapsychology. --Iantresman (talk) 16:01, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Perhaps what is more important, is that he calls himself a biologist, and has a doctorate to back it up. He's a biologist. --Iantresman (talk) 16:02, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I oppose the removal of "parapsychologist". If third-party sources call him a "parapsychologist" or a "biochemist", then that's what Wikipedia should describe him as. --Joshua Issac (talk) 16:21, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. We have three perfectly reliable sources for parapsychologist, and cannot ignore them, even though sheldrake personally prefers the slightly-different-term psychical researcher. But we also cannot ignore the vast and plentiful (and also perfectly reliable) sources calling him biologist/biochemist. The argument can be made that 'Nature' in 2004 or whatever is More Reliable than some Usa Today quote from 2013, because of the hierarchy-of-reliability documented in WP:FRINGE w.r.t. newspapers, but pillar two NPOV does not permit us to *pick* which sources we want to reflect. That's bias. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 17:02, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Joshua Issac and Iantresman, but the problem is that sources conflict. We can't launch into describing the "controversy" over what he is called in the first sentence (well possibly we could, but that would be extremely idiosyncratic for a WP article). It's a peculiar situation because mainstream science and even some of his supporters view him as a parapsychologist or a researcher of paranormal phenomena, while he insists that he's not a parapsychologist and does not research paranormal phenomena. He calls himself a biologist who researches natural phenomena. In interviews and public appearances he describes himself as a biologist, and popular media often reports it that way.

I've suggested the path out of this morass is to go with what the most esteemed and prestigious sources say -- the sources which are the most qualified to assess Sheldrake's status. Under that criteria Nature is hands-down winner, and Nature says he is a parapsychologist and former biochemist, per the sources given in the first sentence of the article. vzaak (talk) 17:35, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

But your suggestion is WP:CHERRYPICKING, and whether you intend it or not, aligns with the Oft-Aggrandized-Sceptic-Conspiracy which true fans of Sheldrake already believe in, without any help from a biased wikipedia article. My suggestion for the lede was to use the grammatically awkward but reasonably illustrative "biochemist-and-now-parapsychologist" which methinks captures the situation. And yes, I agree that it would be idiosyncratic for a BLP article... but the idiosyncrasy of the prose matches the idiosyncratic nature of the BLP we are discussing. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 17:54, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

V's suggestion is not useful, IMHO. Lou Sander (talk) 18:02, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The unattributed Nature news item describes him as "a parapsychologist at Trinity College", but this is contradicted in the same piece by Rees who says that the affiliation is "inappropriate", ie. it is wrong, and the reliability that Nature's description of "parapsychologist" is also put in doubt. There is no dispute that he has carried out research in the field of parapsychology, but academia does not recognise the position of "parapsychologist". Sheldrake is a biologist with a doctorate to prove it, that is confirmed by many reliable sources (already mentioned).--Iantresman (talk) 18:13, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The text is correcting the affiliation; it says nothing about correcting "parapsychologist". In any case, as I've said, I think "researcher in the field of parapsychology" is better than "parapsychologist". vzaak (talk) 18:26, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

How do you propose that we handle conflicting sources? Describe the conflict in the first sentence? vzaak (talk) 18:29, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It would be far more relevant if in the lead section we describe Mr Sheldrake as is. He was born....then qualified in....he then wrote books....he then stepped into the world of controversy and caused lots of discussion-on-his-wiki-page-about-a- 20-word intro because of his...bla bla bla. There needs to be a time-line in all of this. You're not born a parblinkingdoobrey...and anyway I shouldn't think there is a person in the world who would describe themselves as such if they'd gone to-university-and-got-a-degree-in-something.
Ian's suggestions sound very true and fair to me. We write was he did to get to where he is now and the qualification in a scientific subject was what happened first, then the writing, then the lecturing, then the supposed 'controversy' ....tell me where in wikipedia exactly it says we can't call him a scientist, or a biologist? Veryscarymary (talk) 10:32, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That is not how the WP:LEAD section and introduction works.

The intro sentence must provide a basic context around the subject and why they are notable. Sheldrake is notable because of his lecturing and writing on fringe subjects and the rejection of those subjects by the mainstream. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 11:19, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(1) I think sources show that he notable for his writing and lecturer because he is a qualified biologist. I am sure there are others who have written about the same subjects, but they are not notable because they do not have a scientific background. I don't think that Nature or the New Scientist would have given Sheldrake the time of day, if he wasn't so well qualified. (2) I don't think sources show that "mainstream science" rejects Sheldrake. I think sources show that some people in mainstream science rejects some of what Sheldrake writes about. --Iantresman (talk) 14:31, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Iantresman is correct, but the TRPoD is also correct. Here is the basic context, which the lead ought to cover. Sheldrake is a biochemist with highly respectable credentials, and two decades of mainstream phytomorphology work... when he could no longer get funding from the holders of mainstream-purse-strings to research his telepathy-like theories, to fund his research Sheldrake instead wrote a half-dozen popular books, and co-authored another half-dozen... touching on plantBiology/chemistry/physics/quantumPhysics/psychology ... as well as philosophyOfScience/politicsOfScienceFunding/theology... and thus became Extremely Controversial, Either Loved Or Hated, Both Famous And Infamous. (TRPoD , if you disagree this is the basics, please point to a specific flaw. Just saying you like the way the article is written now better than my summary, gets us nowhere.)

    p.s. Speaking of getting nowhere... this article-n-talkpage WP:BATTLEGROUND, and the dramatic change-over from the slightly-pro-Sheldrake-lean that it had in May 2013 (despite IRWolfie replacing 'theory' with instead 'concept' in places in April), to the leans-anti-Sheldrake status it enjoys now, is not going away. Mary says that Sheldrake's inherently-idiosyncratic story has "caused lots of discussion-on-his-wiki-page-about-a-20-word intro" ... and although as yet there is no WP:RS which covers the idea that Some People (sorry about the weasel words but Vzaak will not let me post the data showing who is who) use wikipedia as a way to grind their POV axes... but soon enough, if this goes on, the mainstream press will pick it up, and then the Sheldrake BLP will have a paragraph devoted to wikipedia bias, just like the Bogdanov_affair page that User:Guy mentioned (and they had arguably-fake PhD credentials!). Folks here that are battling to downplay that Sheldrake is a highly-credentialed biologist with 20 years of experience, and author of a double-handful of books published over 30 years to prove notability... are you *sure* you are best advancing the sceptic cause, by making Sheldrake's WP:BLP appear to be (to the untrained eye) victim of the vast sceptic conspiracy? Be WP:NICE, to other wikipedians, and to Sheldrake the BLP, and get this basket-case article back into line with the bulk of the reliable sources. Pretty please. — 74.192.84.101 (talk) 14:45, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Vzaak, I wish that you had made it clearer what you meant by "conflict" earlier in the discussion. I am not familiar with Sheldrake or his work, and I did not know that he shied away from the "parapsychologist" label. It is now clear to me what the conflict is: some sources see his current work as biology, while others consider it to be parapsychology. In light of this, I think that he should be called a "researcher" in the opening sentence, and the following sentences could say what he has been researching throughout his career, preferably without explicitly referring to him as a parapsycholgist or a biologist in the first paragraph; e.g. He researched Foo from 1990 to 1995 at the University of Mayfair, and Bar from 1996 to 2000 at the University of Qux (where Foo is a biology topic and Bar is a parapsychology topic). That should hopefully make the opening paragraph free of controversial material while still capturing why the subject is notable. The conflict itself may be discussed afterwards. --Joshua Issac (talk) 17:15, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: By "controversial", I mean claims supported by conflicting sources, not something controversial that Sheldrake may have said or done. --Joshua Issac (talk) 17:19, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Columns: user | contribution | percent of total contribution

                74.192.84.101   133507    62.8%
                   Lou Sander    10329     4.9%
                  David in DC     9457     4.4%
                Alfonzo Green     9264     4.4%
                        Vzaak     9172     4.3%
                Veryscarymary     8185     3.9%
     Barney the barney barney     7195     3.4%
              TheRedPenOfDoom     6883     3.2%
                       Tento2     6417     3.0%
                   Iantresman     5664     2.7%
                 Roxy the dog     4878     2.3%
                   Tom Butler     3774     1.8%
                    Dingo1729     3393     1.6%
                    SqueakBox     2031     1.0%
                     Blacksqr     1327     0.6%
                          JzG      870     0.4%
         QTxVi4bEMRbrNqOorWBV      532     0.3%
                      SineBot      307     0.1%
                    IRWolfie-      189     0.1%
                      Legobot   -10850    -5.1%

People are invited to double-check the numbers; start date is 15:58, 24 October 2013‎. vzaak (talk) 10:46, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yikes, IRWolfie- (talk) 10:48, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Man, I've heard of strict deletionists, but that Legobot dude is off the charts. Do you think this merits and RfC/U?David in DC (talk) 10:53, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

So is this a good-faith disruption, performance art, or what? vzaak (talk) 11:01, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think we need more of 74's wisdom. Barney the barney barney (talk) 11:09, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

i am not naming names, but someone might want to read tl;dr -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 11:43, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(I have a contribution to make on this topic... verbose as usual unfortunately... <grin> ... but vzaak and I are discussing some complaints they had, before I post it. TBD.) 74.192.84.101 (talk) 16:43, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(Vzaak has not responded yet. Very busy, I suppose. My re-analysis of vzaak's dataset will have to wait a bit longer, kind of like Wiseman and Sheldrake, though not as Notable methinks.) 74.192.84.101 (talk) 14:48, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• What does the "contribution" number represent? Size of all edits? Number of edits? What's the source?--Iantresman (talk) 12:17, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Here's a link to the number of talk page edits by contributor over all time. --Iantresman (talk) 12:25, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's scraped from the talk page history. Obviously "contribution" can't be the number of edits; it's the total size of edits; just look at LegoBot (-10850) in the history. vzaak (talk) 12:43, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Also, see the very different graph of the article itself, in mainspace.[67] 74.192.84.101 (talk) 16:43, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

WP:LINKSTYLE says "Items within quotations should not generally be linked; instead, consider placing the relevant links in the surrounding text or in the "See also" section of the article." I've never beem nuts about this part of the MOS and take solace in the word "generally." But the recent wiki-linking of Occam's Razor reminded me about it. If we're going to IAR something, which I favor here, we should at least know what the "R" is that we're "I"ing. David in DC (talk) 10:57, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, LINKSTYLE has that curious rule. Linking to Occam's razor is the perfect example of an appropriate wikilink, but it would strange trying to finesse it into the text outside the quote. And "See also" is of course not an adequate substitute. As long as we keep paying protection money to the MOS goons we'll probably be OK. vzaak (talk) 18:19, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There is a risk of putting-words-into-the-mouth-of-the-source that they did not intend. Using the inline hyperlink in the Occam-quote is perfectly reasonable, and is helpful without being POV at all. Ditto for most of the other examples in the article, but not all. In cases where consensus says we keep the inline-links, might be smart to give a short explanation as a hidden HTML comment in mainspace, so nobody delinks it thinking they are obeying the manual of style... and in cases where we get rid of non-neutral inline-links, prolly need to have hidden HTML comments warning future editors to see the talkpage before they controversially restore the disputed inline-links into the midst of a quote. Hidden HTML comments do not help with bots, or editors in a rush, but they are in the wikipedia FAQ, so they're kosher if used with care. I found five naughty Manual Of Style violations, and one potential future violation that might deserve a hidden-warning-comment:

1. Maddox argued that Sheldrake's hypothesis was not testable or "falsifiable in Popper's sense"...
2. David Sharp writing in The Lancet, noted that experiments were related to the paranormal, with "risk of positive publication bias"...
3. Jones argued that without confirmatory experimental evidence, "the whole unweildy and redundant structure of [Sheldrake's] theory falls to Occam's Razor".
4. In 2003 Sheldrake published The Sense of Being Stared At which explored telepathy, precognition, and the "psychic staring effect".
5. In a mixed review, Bryan Appleyard writing in The Sunday Times said that Sheldrake was "at his most incisive" when making a "broad critique of contemporary science" and "scientism"...
6. He reports that during his time in India he found himself "being drawn back to a Christian path", and currently identifies as Anglican.[1]

Number one links to Popper uncontroversially, but the link to the generic article on falsifiable is not good, because the linked-to-article does not explain *only* the Popper-sense-of-falsifiable, but the more generic concept. In fact, Popper apparently had two flavors of falsifiability, so my suggestion is to delink falsifiable, and replace the link to Karl Popper with a more specific subsection-link.

1. Maddox argued that Sheldrake's hypothesis was not testable or " falsifiable in Popper's sense"...

Truth be told, though, rather than asking readers to slog through *that* huge explication, I'd rather we pick a better quote, that says what Maddox was complaining about in plain-jane-terms, without needing to hedge about being a specific subtype of falsifiability, and without needing to read the vast literature on Popper to find out what Maddox 'really meant'. Having no idea what Maddox meant, I delegate that rewrite task to David.  :-)

Sharp-quote #2 seems fine to me. Jones-quote #3 ditto. Sheldrake-quote in #4 is definitely POV, though, because the generic article on psychic staring is almost certainly not descriptive of what *Sheldrake* means by the phrase (see also the related discussion about whether sheldrake is doing parapsychology or psychical research or biochemistry or whatever). Still need to link to the generic article, but must not pretend Sheldrake meant to reference the contents of that generic article, since almost certainly he did not, so pull it out into the surrounding text, something like this: ...There is a long history of other investigations into such phenomena. Not sure on #5... is Appleyard using the term in the generic-wikipedia-article-is-just-the-ticket sense? As for #6, it is *not* currently linked to the generic-article-on-Christianity-the-mainstream-view, and MUST NOT be so linked, because clearly Sheldrake is many things, but he is not mainstream-Christian or mainstream-anything-else. p.s. Please grammar-fix: ...who Sheldrake claimed had a dogs mentioned in the book... p.p.s. Why is there no telepathy in the see also section? That seems like a no-brainer. Ideally with a disclaimer that Sheldrake's work is telepathy-like. HTH. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 18:34, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

David in DC, I appreciate the bold attempt in formulating this lead, though some issues need to be ironed out first.

Re "mainstream" in your earlier comments, the term "mainstream" plays a key role in the two sections of WP:NPOV relevant here: WP:PSCI and WP:GEVAL. Also, WP:FRINGE is littered with the term (but as I've argued before, FRINGE is often a red herring where the NPOV policy already provides sufficient direction).

First to address some confusions about NPOV reflected generally on the talk page: it's a policy about articles, not about people. Nobody is an NPOV person, and the most disruptive/unconstructive editors have historically been the ones calling themselves NPOV while labeling others non-NPOV and/or taking similar kinds of battleground tactics and/or adopting similar labeling mentalities.

NPOV does not seek a midpoint between the mainstream view and the fringe view, as Annalisa and others have argued. That is a (perhaps common) misunderstanding. Rather, the mainstream view should be clearly described in relationship to the fringe view, without watering down either or shoving them into a blender and drinking the homogenized result.

The quandary in the Sheldrake article is that we run into the difference between mainstream and fringe in the very first sentence. What a person calls himself is hardly ever contested, but in this case it is. Earlier I said describing the "controversy" in the first sentence was infeasible and that we had to choose. On second thought, some variant of the following might possibly work:

Alfred Rupert Sheldrake (born 28 June 1942) is an English author and lecturer on science-related issues; he describes himself as a biologist researching natural phenomena, while mainstream scientists have described him as a former biochemist doing research in the field of parapsychology.

This does justice to Sheldrake's own beliefs, as he rejects the idea that he investigates the paranormal or that he is a parapsychologist (despite the fact that even some of his supporters describe him as such). While conflict in the opening sentence is perhaps unprecedented, it is not as bad as I imagined.

We could launch into issues surrounding David's new lead, but before doing so I'd like to see reactions on whether a "hybrid" intro like the above is feasible. vzaak (talk) 07:59, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Concur with vzaak's first sentence. It's better than mine.

Concur on reverting my bold edits per WP:BRD.

Hopeful that my reverted edits can be the basis for a resolution. David in DC (talk) 12:04, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

((reply to Vzaak -- moved down here per WP:TALK etiquette guidelines)) he doesn't 'describe himself as a biologist he IS a biologist!! Veryscarymary (talk) 17:01, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't like vzaak (talk · contribs)'s sentence, so I'd go with:

Alfred Rupert Sheldrake (born 28 June 1942) is an English author and lecturer on science-related issues he describes himself as a biologist researching natural phenomena, while mainstream scientists have described him as a former biochemist doing research in the field of parapsychology. [and then into a sentence on his academic career, and then into a sentence on what he's been doing since 1981.]. Barney the barney barney (talk) 14:41, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

At first was first skeptical of this idea, but in context it looks OK because the very next thing is biochemist etc:

Alfred Rupert Sheldrake (born 28 June 1942) is an English author and lecturer on science-related issues. From 1967 to 1973 he was a biochemist and cell biologist at the University of Cambridge, after which...

This is another way to sidestep the peculiar and possibly unique situation. Sheldrake does what he does, and attempting to label it as such-and-such may not be the best route. I could go either way: either a "hybrid" clause or omission per above. vzaak (talk) 17:44, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Joshua Isaac's suggestion above of using "researcher" may work, too.

Alfred Rupert Sheldrake (born 28 June 1942) is an English author, lecturer, and researcher. From 1967 to 1973 he was a biochemist and cell biologist at the University of Cambridge, after which...

Or "researcher on science-related issues", but that seems somewhat confusing, as it could mean researching the history of science, etc. vzaak (talk) 20:05, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

((reply to Barney -- moved down here per WP:TALK etiquette guidelines)) You can't have 'author' as his job title, that's not how he made the controversy anyway, or how he got to where he is now, it's from the scientific work he did, WHEN HE WAS Working as a scientist!! Veryscarymary (talk) 17:01, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sheldrake (1942+) is an English biochemist, author and lecturer on science-related issues (specify not editorialize) phytomorphology, physics, parapsychology, philosophy, and spirituality who has published N books since 1981; he describes himself as a biologist (*this* is the sceptic POV... *he* describes himself as a psychical researcher) Sheldrake describes his research (as distinct from his Anglican spirituality or his philosophy concepts) as involving only natural phenomena, while mainstream scientists^[vague]((specify rather than WP:EDITORIALIZING)) have described him as a "former biochemist"^{[citation needed]}, parapsychologist(3 cites), offensive...heretic(Maddox), bizarre...speculative(Sokal), whereas journalists call him a biologist(fifteen cites) due to his UCambridge PhD and his many fellowships. HTH. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 15:02, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Side question -- is the sheldrake phd from clare college, or from uCambridge, or both? Nobody says they have a phd from radcliffe,^{[citation needed]} that I've seen,(WP:OR) do people really say they have a phd from clare? (heh... back in the 2007/2008 edit-wars over Sheldrake, he and a bunch of others were editorialized out of the 'famous and notable alumni' section of the wikipedia article about Clare.[68] Sigh.) 74.192.84.101 (talk) 15:08, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If we used it, it would be more correct to say that Shelrake had a Ph.D from Cambridge University (which people have heard of). The college is a detail for the main article. --Iantresman (talk) 15:25, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

((reply to 74 -- moved down here per WP:TALK etiquette guidelines)) He's NOT a biochemist!! Veryscarymary (talk) 17:01, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, his PhD was in biochemistry, and he had that job-title for several years... it just means, a biologist who specializes on the end of biology near chemistry, in Sheldrake's case. I'm not particularly tied to the term, and most sources use biologist, and I'm in favor of mirroring what the souces say. p.s. Too! Many! ((exclamation marks)) ((stay calm and keep the focus sharp)) HTH.  :-)   74.192.84.101 (talk) 23:50, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Current article, sans expanded-acronym. "Alfred Rupert Sheldrake (born 28 June 1942)[2] is an English author, lecturer and parapsychologist.[3][4][5] From 1967 to 1973 he was a biochemist and cell biologist at the University of Cambridge, after which he was principal plant physiologist at ICRISAT until 1978.[6] Since then, his work has largely centred on what he calls 'morphic resonance'...." 74.192.84.101 (talk) 15:29, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Here is the sentence that David recently tried out, for ease of comparison. "Alfred Rupert Sheldrake (born 28 June 1942)[2] is an English author and lecturer who holds a Ph.D. in biochemistry from Clare College, Cambridge for his work in plant development and plant hormones.[3] His more recent work has largely centred on what he calls 'morphic resonance'...." 74.192.84.101 (talk) 15:29, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It is still incorrect to call Mr Sheldrake 'an author'. I'm an author and I don't have a wikipedia page and people arguing about my credentials and qualifications. He is an author AFTER he got his credentials. And while we're on the subject. IF having qualifications, and degrees are so important, then why are they missed off this article? If having a degree is such a wonderful thing, and I expect a few editors on this page are working for or have one, why would they get it dropped off their wikipedia page just because some 'person' decides they don't like what they're doing with their qualifications. For-the-record, even though some people have disagreed that researching being started at, or dogs and cats knowing you're coming home might not be 'standard science' it was still conducted in a scientific manner....but I'm not here to argue the case about further down the page. I'm here for one reason only (then I can get on with book 15) to have a more correct lead to this article. To have Mr Sheldrake's qualification, and job title recognised and correctly displayed, where it should be, on his wikipedia page. It seems so simple!! Why is there so much argument and nitty picking about it????? i'll send you back to Goldacre's page above, name, date of birth (or not as in his case) qualification, job title.....then all the other stuff. The stats you have above relate to the quantity of WORDS (ie data-space) for each contributor, and I seem to have written quite a few words already..... If we can't agree on something as simple as this 20 word intro, then wikipedia isn't an 'open source' it's a closed shop:( Veryscarymary (talk) 16:56, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

the above proposal violates WP:VALID in giving the misleading impressions of his work and standing. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:59, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

and Wikipedia is NOT "open source" if that means that anyone can write anything. It is an encyclopedia that has a number of policies and guidelines that restrict and determine what information is presented and how it is presented. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:16, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You are saying that the *second* half of WP:VALID is applicable, to whether we call Sheldrake a biologist, or call him a parapsychologist? But that is conflating how we describe his *work* with how we describe *him*. Here is the second half of WP:VALID which is a subset of WP:UNDUE.

"Conspiracy theories, pseudoscience, speculative history, or even plausible but currently unaccepted theories should not be legitimized through comparison to accepted academic scholarship. We do not take a stand on these issues as encyclopedia writers, for or against; we merely omit them where including them would unduly legitimize them, and otherwise describe them in their proper context with respect to established scholarship and the beliefs of the greater world."

It is not a conspiracy theory that Sheldrake has a PhD, and thus is a biologist. It is not pseudoscience that Sheldrake has a PhD, and thus is a biologist. Ditto 'speculative history'. Ditto 'unaccepted theories'. You can apply WP:VALID to the description of morphic fields and morphogenetics, but not to well-sourced facts. Sheldrake's job title should not say "renowned author" like his facebook page, but just because we disagree with his theories does not mean we put "alleged author" or maybe "scribbler" into wikipedia as one of his job-titles. Sheldrake is a biologist/biochemist, and an author/lecturer. We have reliable sources also calling him a parapsychologist, and methinks those are important to include right up front, so that we don't ignore the elephant in the room, as Guy puts it. But we cannot "take a stand" on what Sheldrake's title is; we mirror the sources. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 00:13, 1 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

WP:VALID does not apply here. (1) We are writing a biographical page which refers to minority views where WP:DUE is applicable. (2) it is no-one's "viewpoint" that Sheldrake has a Ph.D. doctorate from Cambridge University, but an indisputable fact that is as valid today, as it was when he received his doctorate. Unless you are referring to another statement, in which case, please be more specific. --Iantresman (talk) 19:50, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

where exactly do you see the exemption in WP:VALID that it does not apply to articles about living people? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:55, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

it is inferred. WP:VALID applies to general articles on mainstream scholarship. It would not be appropriate in an article on, for example, Political party to includes details of the Nazi Party, Monster Raving Loony Party or Australian Sex Party, because they are either unacceptable, minority, legitimate, or nonsense, and we wouldn't want to give any of them undue weight, publicity, legitimacy, or veracity. But it doesn't stop us from having a detailed article on each one, that doesn't violate WP:NPOV per WP:DUE. --Iantresman (talk) 23:03, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

WP:VALID as part of the POLICY WP:NPOV applies to ALL pages. You dont get to pick and choose which articles policies apply to. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:03, 1 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There are *two* parts to the WP:VALID policy, which is a subset of WP:UNDUE. The first part of WP:VALID does not apply to the Sheldrake article; as Iantresman says, it is talking about whether or not to mention morphogenetic fields in the biology article, not about whether to mention Sheldrake's work in the *Sheldrake* article. And obviously, the first part of WP:VALID has nothing whatever to do with whether wikipedia calls Sheldrake a biologist, or a parapsychologist. "While it is important to account for all significant viewpoints on any topic (('political party')), Wikipedia policy does not state or imply that every minority view (('post-WWII Nazi party')) or extraordinary claim (('Monster Raving Loony Party')) needs to be presented along with commonly accepted mainstream scholarship ((about political parties in general... in the political party article))." The 2nd part of WP:VALID *does* apply here in this BLP, see above. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 00:11, 1 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Seems fair to me. Whatever Sheldrake may have done in the past, these days he's mainly known for pseudoscience. It's completely fair to note that he relies on his former career for credibility, but also it would be a failure of NPOV to ignore the elephant in the room. Guy (Help!) 21:43, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I apologize for being dense, User:JzG, but which formulation or formulations seem fair to you. I ask because your note comes directly below one of TRPoD's cries de coeur, and I want to be sure which formulation or formulations you're referring to. Again, I apologize if I'm asking you to restate something that should be obvious. David in DC (talk) 21:59, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Suggest numbering them, which we could do manually, or prolly better, relying on the automatic 'datestamping' of comments as a point-of-reference. The 07:59 by Vzaak, the 15:02 by 74, the 14:41 by Barney, the 20:05 by Vzaak, and so on. HTH. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 23:50, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. I think Sheldrake is most well-know for his books and theories, of which a small number of people have voiced their opinion that they think it is pseudoscience, supported by a small number of sources. --Iantresman (talk) 23:08, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well said. The morphic stuff is clearly and widely regarded as pseudoscience by people with credentials similar to Sheldrakes; the only supporters of morphic stuff are apparently him and those in his inner circle. His experiments with animals, etc. are in the realm of parapsychology, which, though some call it fringe, some do not. His criticisms of science are answered mildly (compared to morphic) by his qualified critics. Lou Sander (talk) 00:10, 1 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Iantresman, Lou, try and stay on the first sentence or two of the lead. Sheldrake is mostly Notable for his books, which is why he's in wikipedia. His scientist-credentials explain why his books took off, and the appeal-slash-infamy of his ideas explain another aspect of why. But be specific: what should the first sentence (or two) actually say? Do we *need* the philosophy-of-science stuff, in the first couple sentences? They're important to the story, but I think they belong in the fourth paragraph of the intro, not the first couple of sentences, which should say author + telepathyLike + biochemist, or somesuch. What, exactly? 74.192.84.101 (talk) 00:19, 1 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

My suggestion: Sheldrake is a biologist with a Ph.D from Cambridge university, who is notable for his books based on his research in the fields of parapsychology and the philosophy of science. --Iantresman (talk) 01:03, 1 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

TRPoD v1:

• Sheldrake is an author an lecturer who received a Ph.D in biology from Cambridge university, who writes and speaks on his research in the fields of parapsychology (including telepathy and what he calls "morphic fields") and the philosophy of science.

i dont care much for the two "who"s but heres my toss into the ring.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 01:30, 1 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sticking to the first sentence (often called a "topic sentence"):

Alfred Rupert Sheldrake (born 28 June 1942)^[7] is an English author and lecturer, best known for his hypothesis of morphic resonance, his experiments in parapsychology, and his challenges to core beliefs of contemporary science.

or alternatively:

Alfred Rupert Sheldrake (born 28 June 1942)^[8] is a controversial English author and lecturer, best known for his hypothesis of morphic resonance, his experiments in parapsychology, and his challenges to core beliefs of contemporary science. Lou Sander (talk) 04:45, 1 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Alfred Rupert Sheldrake (born 28 June 1942) is an English biochemist, author and lecturer. He is best known for proposing the hypothesis of morphic resonance, which claims that "memory is inherent in nature" and that "natural systems, such as termite colonies, or pigeons, or orchid plants, or insulin molecules, inherit a collective memory from all previous things of their kind". His ideas were developed from his doctorate and subsequent research in biochemistry and cell biology at Cambridge University.

Sheldrake has also conducted experiments in parapsychology and has attracted notoriety for challenging some of the core beliefs of contemporary science, arguing that science has become a series of dogmas rather than an open-minded approach to investigating phenomena. His critics claim that his books and public appearances attract popular attention but have a negative impact on the public's understanding of science. Sheldrake's work is regarded as controversial, and although he claims his experiments support his theories, his conclusions have not been accepted by mainstream scientists.

Tento2 (talk) 13:26, 1 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

fails WP:VALID: it presents fringe ideas without any placing them in the context that all mainstream academics view them as total hoo ha. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:32, 1 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"All?" I know many that don't. "Hoo hah?" What academics talk like that? "VALID?" The principle doesn't require that every sentence, word, or paragraph presents both sides in context, does it? Lou Sander (talk) 14:05, 1 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

While it does not mean every sentence must contain the context placement, the LEAD must absolutely be placing the ideas in context. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:26, 1 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think you are wrong on that TRPoD, because the comment "his conclusions have not been accepted by mainstream scientists", makes the point quite adequately. Something is either accepted as being part of science or not - saying that his conclusions have not been accepted by mainstream scientists shows that they are not scientific, and so they have been properly placed according to WP:VALID. It is not scientific, or academic, to try to judge something as being "total hoo ha" - something either meets scientific criteria or fails, and trying to hammer the criticism more forcefully then necessary when it does fail, is one of the negative traits of pseudoskepticism, which WP pages must also seek to avoid. If you can suggest a constructive tweak that allows the content to remain objective and free of negative bias, please do Tento2 (talk) 15:23, 1 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

you are presenting the nonacceptance the the mainstream as if it is an offhand by-the-way non-important factor, when in fact it is what needs to be emphasized. WP:VALID.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:35, 1 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't do it in an "off-hand way", but in a "matter of fact" way. Facts merely need to be stated, not exaggerated. Here is a relevant quote from the link I gave, which shows why we don't need to trash Sheldrake's claims (or imply they are "total hoo ha"). We just need to state that they have not been accepted. That is a powerful comment, and you undermine the weight of it when you try to excuse it, or justify it too much.

In science, the burden of proof falls upon the claimant; and the more extraordinary a claim, the heavier is the burden of proof demanded. The true skeptic takes an agnostic position, one that says the claim is not proved rather than disproved. He asserts that the claimant has not borne the burden of proof and that science must continue to build its cognitive map of reality without incorporating the extraordinary claim as a new "fact." Since the true skeptic does not assert a claim, he has no burden to prove anything. He just goes on using the established theories of "conventional science" as usual. But if a critic asserts that there is evidence for disproof, that he has a negative hypothesis—saying, for instance, that a seeming psi result was actually due to an artifact—he is making a claim and therefore also has to bear a burden of proof.

Tento2 (talk) 15:53, 1 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"He is best known for proposing the hypothesis of morphic resonance, ..." is a neutral statement. It doesn't give the impression that it is legitimate, credible or true in any way, and nor does it dismiss it. The statement is factual, Sheldrake has made this proposal. Or course it begs the question regarding the veracity of his hypothesis, which we can subsequent discuss with secondary sources. --Iantresman (talk) 17:50, 1 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

True, that. Lou Sander (talk) 19:20, 1 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is very close to a first-draft version with much-improved-neutrality. Does anybody object to getting something like this into mainspace, as the first sentence, ASAP? If so please specify what fragment-number you dislike, and your suggested replacement. The ordering is not *that* crucial, and the grammar can be cleaned up uncontroversially. Either of these is a very big improvement over what we have now methinks. We can always come back later, to incrementally improve. Do not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 22:19, 1 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

fragment	Iantresman @ 01:03	TRPoD v1 @ 01:30	differences
0	Sheldrake is	Sheldrake is
1	a biologist	in biology	past-vs-present-tense
2	with a Ph.D	who received a Ph.D	past-vs-present-tense
3	from Cambridge university,	from Cambridge university,
4	who is notable for his books	an author and lecturer	should say author of N books methinks
5	based on his research	who writes and speaks on his research	close enough?
6	in the fields of parapsychology	in the fields of parapsychology
7		(including telepathy	books 3,4,5
8	(later)...best known for proposing the hypothesis of morphic resonance,...	and what he calls "morphic fields")	books 1,2,etc
9	and the philosophy of science.	and the philosophy of science.	(main gist of book 6)

Don't know whether this is a suitable compromise: "Sheldrake received a Ph.D from Cambridge University in biochemistry. As an author and lecturer, he writes and speaks on his research in the field of parapsychology (notable his hypothesis of "morphic fields" and telepathy in animals), and on the philosophy of science." --Iantresman (talk) 23:13, 1 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Frag 1 - He is basically a biologist. Scientists and biochemists are something different.
• Frag 2 - Ph.D. isn't needed in the topic sentence, as long as it isn't papered over later.
• Frag 3 - Useful, but not extremely necessary in the topic sentence. Don't paper over, though.
• Frag 4 - Author and lecturer is what he is after a biologist. Maybe a "researcher, author, and lecturer"
• Frag 5 & 6 - It breaks down here. Somebody called him a P, but P's work in labs and he really isn't one.
• Frag 7 & 8 - Morphic needs to be mentioned explicitly.
• Frag 9 - Good. Great, actually, if you can grant that the morphic stuff is also, really, philosophy of science. Lou Sander (talk) 23:44, 1 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Lou, Frag#9 is not the morpho-n-telepathy-like-theories, directly, that is a category-error. The most recent book, science-set-free, is largely concepts from philosophy of science, which means, Kuhnian musing about dogmas, advocating questioning COE w.r.t. dark energy research, and other stuff *way* more generic thinking *about* the process of science in general, far away from Sheldrake's target-specific experimental work designed to detect morpho, or his reasonably target-specific theories laying out morpho, which were the previous books. (There is a large dose of morpho-rehash in the most recent book too, of course.) Contrast with the Sheldrake book about Angels, card-catalogue-subject "spirituality" and thus something mainstream scientists *can* criticize... but they rarely bother... it is outside their field, and better criticized by mainstream theologists&philosophers. Sheldrake's "philosophy-of-science" also *can* be criticized by mainstream scientists, with more weight since it is *about* their field... but is still outside it, and better criticized by mainstream philosophers(-of-science when possible). 74.192.84.101 (talk) 11:39, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I get it. Thanks. On further consideration, I think it's best to talk about challenging basic assumptions, rather than philosophy of science. Clear, direct language is better. Lou Sander (talk) 12:46, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hoping not to draw attention away from the fragments, how about "RS is a Cambridge-trained biologist, author and lecturer, most notable for his ideas on what he calls morphic resonance, his researches into telepathy and related subjects, and his criticisms of many foundations of contemporary science." Now go on to say that his stuff, especially morphic stuff, has been strongly criticized by mainstream scientists (or whatever. It is acceptable to mention the strength, breadth and depth of the criticism, but this must be done non-harshly and in the spirit of BLP) Lou Sander (talk) 00:09, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

... has introduced some words that were controversial, and ruled out by this page in the context used by Blippy, like 'theory' and 'hypothesis' - and changed crafted words in controversial sections such that the whole tone of the page has altered. I have made a couple of small changes, and considered reverting to before Blippy arrived. I decided that more experienced heads might like to discuss. --Roxy the dog (resonate) 11:23, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

How is the word theory controversial when referring to Sheldrake's theory? Cheers, Blippy (talk) 11:30, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe this will help: "The theory of 'morphic resonance posits that..." ^[9] cheers Blippy (talk) 11:41, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

...and this: "Sheldrake is scientific – at least in many respects – but his theory is wrong." ^[10] cheers Blippy (talk) 11:45, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Blippy (talk · contribs), you need to understand that a "scientific theory" is specifically defined as "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on knowledge that has been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experimentation." To use the word "theory" in the context of a science-related article implies "scientific theory". Yet, as the numerous references show, Sheldrake's proposals do not meet these criteria. Note that some sources are more sloppy in their use of language than we are - we are trying our best to use as accurate language as possible. I hope that helps. Barney the barney barney (talk) 11:43, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]