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Hi, check on p.7 of the French source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LikesBanana (talk • contribs) 02:53, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

More,

"He also mentions Vladimir Stankevich's 1921 book titled The Fate of the Peoples of Russia (Судьба народов России) whereby Stankevich writes that the "angry and defeated" Russian army was "robbing and pillaging the Muslim population" and that as a result, 200 Muslim villages had been destroyed. Hasanli also writes of a 1922 memoir by Boris Baykov who wrote that Muslim villages were exclusively targeted during these events.[13] Mustafa Kemal, the leader of the Turkish National Movement, in justifying an invasion of Armenia, stated that reportedly nearly 200 villages were burned by Armenians and most of their 135,000 inhabitants were "eliminated"."

See Hasanli, Foreign Policy of the Republic of Azerbaijan: The Difficult Road to Western Integration, 1918-1920. pp. 18-19

"In January 1918, a bloody conflict with heavy casualties took place at Shamkhor Station between Russian soldiers and government forces. Stepan Shaumian made an attempt to relate the events that took place from the ninth to the January to counterrevolutionary activity by Musavat party. However, the actual situation was very different. Having taken into consideration that the Russian army, moving toward Baku, would serve the Bolsheviks, or at least would provide them arms and military supplies, the South Caucasian Commissariat considered it necessary to disarm them, and it passed as resolution ordering the disarmament of Russian soldiers. The Azerbaijani population was suffering the most from the return of the Russian army. Vladimir Stankevich, in his work The Fate of the Peoples of Russia, wrote that the retreating Russian army, angry and defeated was robbing and pillaging the Muslim population. According to reports, 200 Muslim villages were destroyed in the course of this operation."

Unrelated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LikesBanana (talk • contribs) 02:58, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hasanli clearly states "The Azerbaijani population was suffering the most from the return of the Russian army" before mentioning the destruction of 200 villages, I can't see how it's not relevant to the article as it falls within the period of massacres/deportations (from 1917 to 1921). – Olympian ^loquere 03:05, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Unless those 200 villages were within the region this article cover, it is outside of the scope of the article. You worded it, as if those 200 villages were within the region.

There is more:

The article stats: "The British Chief Commissioner of Transcaucasia, Oliver Wardrop, wrote in a report that "Armenians had destroyed sixty Muslim villages in New Bayazit, Alexandropol, and Erivan provinces"."

But check p. 268 of Hasanli book

"As the completion of the withdrawal of British troops from the Caucasus drew near, at the end of August, a mission consisting of White, Malligan, Grandy, and one more person under the leadership of Mr. Wardrop came to Tiflis. The decision of the Minister of Foreign Affairs on appointment of Mr. Wardrop as British High Commissioner to the South Caucasus was delivered to the government of Azerbaijan on August 22.

Thus, a new stage for Azerbaijan, a new and fundamentally different Caucasus, began. After starting his work in Tiflis, on September 27, Wardrop left for Baku accompanied by White, the member of the British mission; Fariz Bey Vakilov, diplomatic representative of Azerbaijan to Georgia; and G. Alshibaya, diplomatic representative of Georgia to Azerbaijan. On September 28, he was met at Baku railway station by Hammad Yusif Jafarov, Minister of Foreign Affairs, and other official persons. During his visit, Wardrop met with Nasib Usubbeyov, Prime Minister; Jafarov, Minister of Foreign Affairs; Khudadat Bey Malik-Aslanov, Minister of Roads; General Ali Agha Shikhlinski, Deputy Defense Minister; Mammad Sadikh Aghabeyov, Deputy Minister of Internal Affairs; and other officials. In his report on his visit to Baku sent to London on October 2, Wardrop wrote:

The people and government of this country hold Great Britain in high esteem, unlike any other. The prime minister’s position is quite firm. If we would help them, they will cooperate with Britain. I have a high opinion of the frankness of Mr. Usubbeyov and his ability to control the policy of his country. We both have strong hope in the future development of our relations.

During his visit to Baku, the British High Commissioner was fully informed about the brutalities committed by Armenians in Azerbaijan and the entire South Caucasus. In his report to London, he wrote, “Azerbaijanis have reported that with help of Bolsheviks, local Armenians have killed a great number of the Muslim population.” According to them, Shaumian was a “false Bolshevic.” In his report, Wardrop added that just recently Armenians had destroyed sixty Muslim villages in New Bayazit, Alexandropol, and Erivan provinces."

Check the difference in wording of what Hansanli writes and his quoting of Wardrop (Azerbaijanis have reported).

Fin a proper wording, because the article wording is misleading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LikesBanana (talk • contribs) 03:19, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

" In dealing with "troublesome" Muslim bands in Etchmiadzin, Armenian militias looted Muslim villages along the railway, forcing their inhabitants to flee across the Aras river—in an instance of this, the men of six Muslim villages were massacred and the women distributed to the "Armenian warriors"."

Hi, perhaps, wrong edition? I don't find it at the said page, here: https://dspace.nplg.gov.ge/bitstream/1234/228216/1/The_Republic_Of_Armenia_Volume_II.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by LikesBanana (talk • contribs) 14:31, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for pointing that out, it's been fixed. The relevant passage is on page 180 of the second volume which you've linked:

It had just been learned, for example, that the men of six villages had been massacred and their womenfolk distributed to the “Armenian warriors.” Azerbaijan could no longer tolerate such atrocities or acquiesce in the loss of a part of its land and people.

Regards, – Olympian ^loquere 23:18, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, there is still the problem of the scope of the article. In the casualties section you included a list consisting of Erivan Governorate, Surmalu uezd, Kars Oblast, Zangezur uezd, however the map provided on that section includes only the current Armenian border. I don't know how this consistency issue could be dealth with, unless either the scope of the article or the title are changed. The text starts with Azerbaijanis in Armenia that links to another article about Azerbaijanis inhabiting the region now part of Armenia. However this article convers currently just more than the Republic border, unlike what the title asserts. It's cynical, to include Kars-Surmalu, where Muslim refugees returned, while Armenians did not, in fact, about half of the Armenians in the Surmalu uezd perished of starvation. LikesBanana (talk) 01:19, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, Armenia was significantly truncated (the losses of Kars and Surmalu to Turkey and Sharur–Nakhichevan to Azerbaijan) since the ethnic cleansing and massacres occurred, so the best maps available (as included in the article) only indicate the territory of present-day Armenia, or rather, the Armenian SSR. There's not much that can be done to rectify this unless an editor experienced in the subject draws up another map that shows the ethnography all concerned regions, not just present-day Armenia. I don't think it's reasonable to reduce the scope of the article based on the availability of maps – I'm sure most would agree that in the case of Wikipedia, reliable sources are paramount in deciding the article's scope. Regards, – Olympian ^loquere 02:19, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi User:Olympian, I think this sentence needs reworking:

• Nakhchivan, which was allotted to the Azerbaijan SSR, was "literally depopulated and turned into a desert" and "almost a third of the Muslim population" fled to Iran

This creates the false impression that Nakhchivan had been depopulated solely due to the massacre and flight of the Muslim population. The massacre of the Armenian population of Nakhchivan in the same period either needs to be mentioned here (for example, "Nakhchivan, where both the Armenian and Azerbaijani populations had been subjected to massacres, was "literally depopulated and turned into a desert"...) or it should be put differently. Revolution Saga (talk) 03:11, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, thank you for the suggestion. I liked your wording so I added something like that, and I believe page 4 of the Broers source will be sufficient to reference the facts that Armenians in Nakhchivan were ethnically cleansed:

"Reliable numbers are elusive, but Ottoman Turkish–Azerbaijani forces killed or drove out many thousands of Armenians from Nakhichevan …"

Regards, – Olympian ^loquere 03:18, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The map in this article has the title: "Own work based on the map of A. Tsutsiyev (2004) (АТЛАС ЭТНОПОЛИТИЧЕСКОЙ ИСТОРИИ КАВКАЗА, Цуциев А.А, Москва: Издательство «Европа», 2007)"

It does not seem possible to reconstruct this map from the linked source (where the URL goes). Wikipedia is not the place for original research. Humanatbest (talk) 15:07, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I made comments on the Good article nominations page (current #25 in World history) concerning issues that include grammatical errors and stability. The article fails several points, not only for consideration of GA but a premature assessment of B-class. Title: Currently: Massacres of Azerbaijanis in Armenia in 1917–1921. When using a single year "in" 1917 would be proper. When using multiple years "from" 1917–1921 would be more correct; as in Massacres of Azerbaijanis in Armenia from 1917–1921. Otr500 (talk) 06:32, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Otr500, I couldn't find your comment on the Good Article nominations page, would you mind linking them, please? I'd also be useful to know what points the article fails on as the grammar in the article is seemingly sound and the article title itself was already fixed on 30 December (the years were moved into parenthesis: [1]). Regards, – Olympian ^loquere 07:51, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I added it here, and a bot removed it a little over two hours later. -- Otr500 (talk) 10:52, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Otr500 you wrote that the article fails the criteria of being well-written and verifiable with no original research. Could you please clarify exactly what in the article is poorly written and what parts are original research? The only evidence to support the latter was one poorly-worded sentence which was immediately deleted – everything else in the article is carefully sourced and I'm willing to stand by that should anyone like to attempt to verify it. Regards, – Olympian ^loquere 11:36, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I will need some patience. My gaming laptop went down and I am on an old Windows 7 likely built for Fred Flintstone.

I have full intentions of listing issues that I consider needing attention. I get slowed down by health issues and running across things like the opening sentence of the background section: "Following the Russian annexation of Iranian Armenia...". The link is to the Treaty of Turkmenchay, and the "Terms" section begins; "The terms of the Treaty of Turkmenchay can be found in here. as the following text is an unreliable abstract that can be edited by different biased sources: This is clear editorial bias, and I am pretty sure original research, that should be fixed as linking to it degrades an article.

I have not gone through the sourcing so that is not at issue ("everything else in the article is carefully sourced...") with me at this time. The mention of original research {#2 on the criteria) was actually for verifiability which would include quotes and WP:inline citations. The bot removed comments on the GA nomination were This article is not ready for a GA review failing criteria #1, #2, and #5. There are numerous sentence structural and grammatical errors, issues at an AFD shows referencing issues, and recent changes are evidence of instability. The article title could use grammatical improvements. This article was likely prematurely elevated to "B-class" failing #1 and #4. Any that have been rectified please ignore and the corrected title is good.

Weasel wording (Unsupported attributions): The third paragraph of the lead starts: "Soviet historians estimate"^[which?],

The "Aftermath" section includes "According to British reports" (again "which"),

The "Soviet historiography" (2nd to last sentence) uses "A Soviet Armenian source writes". I didn't follow the source but unless written recently it is likely past tense. Clarity would suggest naming the source and including quotes with in-text_attribution.

In the "Erivan Governorate and Kars Oblast" section (3rd to last sentence): The Central Muslim National Committee of the South-West Caucasus in Kars on August 1919 writes that Armenian forces put to fire 38 villages in Surmalu, affecting 3,500 people and leaving 40,000 homeless. This is converted to Wikipedia language, "writes" is present tense, and something from 1919 would dictate past-tense.

The definite article (the) should be used for sentence flow and I am pretty sure I saw where it is missing in places. I will go over this and add any I find that is missing. The above comments is what I noticed on a first and fast read. Other than simple sentence corrections I will try to abstain from in-depth editing. Thanks for asking clarification. I have a double PE, off work, and on medication. If I make a questionable statement just continue to ask for clarification. -- Otr500 (talk) 13:08, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I stripped the article of primary and fringe sources pointed out in the AFD discussion. Per WP:ONUS, the reliability of sources needs to be established first. And given the multiple incidents of failed verification for sources in this article, we should establish what is reliable and what isn't before including it in the article. --Dallavid (talk) 19:56, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Just checked the Devastation book for the "killing spree" claim, Levene literally uses McCarthy as a source in the citation (203) for this. The article continues to fall apart with the smallest amount of verifying.

Levene also leaves a comment in his footnote for the McCarthy book that "though with the unfortunate corollary that McCarthy radically downplays the specifically Armenian catastrophe". There are other genocide deniers in the footnotes as well, such as Stanford J. Shaw and Guenter Lewy. Levene in general is very apologetic to Armenian genocide deniers in this book. --Dallavid (talk) 22:00, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Dallavid If you have a problem with any of the sources used in the article, you're welcome to take it to WP:RSN. I couldn't have known about the origin of the Levene claim as I wasn't the one to add it originally—it came from Azerbaijanis in Armenia article [2] which I partially worked on before moving its content into this article. In any case, it's been removed [3], thanks for pointing it out. – Olympian ^loquere 01:23, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• I missed this AfD but I don't see why this article topic should be separate from deportation of Azerbaijanis from Armenia. It would make no more sense to have separate articles for deportation of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire 1915–1917 and massacres of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire 1915–1917. Additionally, the article title should be avoided as POV if there is any serious dispute that massacres occurred. (t · c) buidhe 05:37, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The article survived an AFD but there were issues noted there, as well as some in the "Issues" section above, that indicates this article fails B-class assessment. During the AFD the title was changed (considered inappropriate) and the parenthetical dates are questionable. This needs resolution to preclude a possible merger discussion. -- Otr500 (talk) 12:19, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]