Tender Claws (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

This is a significant game design company that has won multiple awards, and the article had many citations. I unfortunately did not see the deletion discussion until yesterday, or I would have argued against deletion/redirect. If anything, it would make more sense to delete the separate article for The Under Presents, and redirect that to Tender Claws, because the game company has made MANY significant works apart from The Under Presents.

The reason for deletion given by User:Alexandermcnabb includes the statement "When you're presenting a gaming company as interesting because one of its games is unplayable, you're in the weeds, folks..." I completely agree that if that game is unplayable (I haven't tried) it probably shouldn't be included in the Wikipedia article, but that's easily fixable by deleting that line, which was added by an anonymous user on March 8, adding "VVR2 got released, should probably add that. (And the part about how terrible the game is)". This unsourced statement surely shouldn't lead to deleting the whole article. User:Alexandermcnabb states that the article fails WP:GNG but this is a game development studio, not an actor. He also states that it fails WP:CORP but I don't see how this can be the case, given that Tender Claws has extensive media coverage (the deleted article included references to a long article in the New York Times, a review in the Theatre Journal and several others, and several of their games have won awards - and the article that was deleted has citations for many of these awards.

I think both Samantha Gorman and the studio Tender Claws clearly deserve their own articles, and ask that the community reconsiders their deletion. I am also happy to help revise both articles to improve them. Lijil (talk) 19:59, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Endorse the redirect consensus was unanimous meaning there was no way this could have been closed.--67.70.24.37 (talk) 23:04, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Endorse redirect the redirect consensus was, indeed, unanimous (6 editors voting) which is why this close was appropriate. The company Tender Claws does, indeed, fail WP:GNG and WP:CORP. There seems to be some confusion here about actors and WP:GNG - there was no mention of actors in the nomination or debate. The New York Times article is 1) not readily verifiable as it's behind a paywall 2) about a product, not the company. In fact sourcing is problematic in this article, failing to show a clear pass of WP:GNG let alone the more rigorous standard of WP:CORP - the company is simply not notable and it is NOT the subject of "significant coverage in multiple reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject." The sources presented are ALL about the company's apps, not the company. The first source is the company's website, the second is a Polish research paper which mentions the app Pry in a secondary mention in a footnote - and the other 11 sources are all reviews or apps featuring in listicles, or incidental mentions of apps (the Sundance source is a broken link, but searching Sundance's website shows that the Associate programmer and Festival coordinator likes Virtual Virtual Reality, a Tender Claws app - this is pretty typical of the standard of sourcing presented here). There simply isn't any evidence that the company is notable. The redirect to its most successful/well known application is therefore entirely appropriate and should stand. Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 04:20, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with almost everything said though the bit about paywalled sources not being verifiable is wrong per WP:PAYWALL. That being said the New York Times article still isn’t useable since the article isn’t about the company itself.--67.70.24.37 (talk) 05:18, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

To be fair I merely noted its not readily verifiable and did confirm that it is not about the company but an app, but yes policy is indeed that the source shouldn't be discounted just because it's paywalled. Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 05:40, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Are you saying that if media coverage is about specific games rather than about the game developer overall, there could be articles for each of the games but not for the developer? Lijil (talk) 13:23, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Does that mean news coverage about Tender Claws unionising is the sort of thing that could support notability for this game development studio, but articles about the games they make cannot? Lijil (talk) 13:27, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Read WP:INHERIT. -- ferret (talk) 13:35, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

So I should make articles for each of their works instead? Lijil (talk) 13:47, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Only if those works are themselves notable per WP:GNG. Each topic is looked at under its own lens. -- ferret (talk) 13:50, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Endorse redirect There's no other way this AFD would have been closed, and the close is proper. Note that the OP has approached WT:VG about this review, perhaps unaware that most of the !voters at the AFD are from WP:VG in the first place. -- ferret (talk) 13:23, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm glad to hear that the voters are from WP:VG! I am trying to understand the system here and have not been able to find clear guidelines for notability for game developers, which especially in the case of indie studios surely have more in common with authors or artists than corporations in general. I'm a professor of digital culture trying to contribute to Wikipedia, so I have a lot of content knowledge but clearly have a lot to learn about the editing system. If the correct way to do this is to make an article for each of the studio's works and not have an article for the studio that's fine with me, but it does seem strange!! Lijil (talk) 13:38, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Studios are WP:NCORP. Specific indie developers, like say Eric Barone (developer), fall under WP:NBIO and Creative (Generally, but not always). Individual video games themselves are simply WP:GNG. -- ferret (talk) 13:42, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment The redirect preference was clear, but I question whether it was correct. Looking at the redirected text--and thank you to the closing admin for NOT deleting it before redirection--the software Pry (or PRY?) appears to be itself notable based on the references included in the now-redirected Tender Claws article. One good reason to cover this non-notable company is that it has two separate notable products. This isn't invoked in NCORP, but is really an application of WP:BAND criterion 6. Our current iteration of NCORP is written terribly exclusionary, and I get that it's designed to keep corporate spam off of Wikipepdia. Still, there's a reason N is a guideline rather than a policy, and this is one instance of it. Jclemens (talk) 15:31, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I agree that Pry is notable itself. I just revised the article on Samantha Gorman (co-founder of Tender Claws) to provide more reliable sources for this. Lijil (talk) 22:11, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Endorse as a valid close and the only appropriate close. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:17, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Endorse, couldn't have been closed any other way. User:Lijil, the standard for reversing a consensus, for convincing everyone that everyone was wrong, is WP:THREE. Provide three quality sources. As the result was a redirect, the place to make the case is at the talk page of the redirect target. However, don't waste others' time making arguments without the WP:THREE sources. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:41, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Thank you for explaining about WP:THREE, I was looking for guidelines about how to do this, so this will be useful in future. Lijil (talk) 21:26, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Endorse It was a valid close given the lack of evidence of notability that was ever provided in the AfD discussion. See WP:GNG which is a general guideline across all of Wikipedia, not just WikiProject Video Games. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 07:12, 27 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Patrick Lancaster (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

Request overturning or relisting of this deletion discussion. Closer did not take into account a lengthy article by Zaborona covering the subject very significantly and a discussion on Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 379#Zaborona where most editors said Zaborona is reliable. The Zaborona article was removed as an administrative action which I challenged on User talk:EvergreenFir#Your administrator actions on Patrick_Lancaster and the administrator subsequently changed their position in the aforementioned Reliable sources noticeboard discussion. IntrepidContributor (talk) 10:48, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Weak Overturn to No Consensus - I count 8 Keep !votes, and 8 Delete !votes plus the nom for 9, and guideline-based reasons for both, so that the closer's disregard of the Keeps was a supervote. That is enough participation that a Relist is not required or appropriate. The appeal would be stronger if the appellant hadn't bludgeoned the AFD. The bludgeoning may have, almost reasonably, made the closer think that the appellant was shouting because they didn't have a case. Usually shouting and bludgeoning is the sign of a lost cause, and the closer may have thought so. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:10, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Overturn to no consensus Solid policy-based arguments were made on both sides, and the closing admin incorrectly dismisses the NBC and Vice sources while also failing to acknowledge a few other reliable sources that came up in the discussion. Frank Anchor 17:09, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Overturn to NC the Task and Purpose profile, linked in the AfD, was sufficiently compelling to 'win' the GNG argument, but seemed to be lost in the back-and forth and accusations of sockpuppetry and bad faith. Jclemens (talk) 04:07, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Endorse. Within admin discretion, "no consensus" and "delete" both defensible. Many "keep" !votes were not solid. Potentially this should be considered WP:TNT, it sounds like the article was littered by low quality source; consider trying again in draft with WP:THREE quality sources. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:52, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  The article already was rewritten through the AfD process. See latest version of deleted text here. IntrepidContributor (talk) 15:22, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I don’t approve. This shows disrespect for Wikipedia and the deletion process and attribution good practice. Please have it deleted and wait for this DRV discussion to finish.

  If the outcome is to consider the deletion WP:TNT and allow a re-start, the only thing that can be re-used is the reference list, and even then the point is the discarding of all low quality sources. SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:19, 27 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  If any other user had requested a temp undeletion, it would have been granted. Rather than griping at this editor, how about we do that instead, so all of us can see what the text was when it was deleted? Jclemens (talk) 06:32, 27 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm not sure what the gripe is about. Sometimes the Wikipedia deletion process goes astray, as was the case here. The only reason this article was deleted was because I was accused of being pro-Russian and a stock of another editor. IntrepidContributor (talk) 10:25, 27 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Overturn to no consensus. There was no consensus in the AfD discussion about whether the sources were sufficient for the subject to meet Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline. The closing admin mentioned the NBC News and Vice sources but additional sources were discussed such as this comment that said:

  I actually recognized this name because his name has been mentioned in Dutch media more than once in relation to Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 being shot down. This article in NRC (newspaper) (definitely a reliable source) for example mentions "Lancaster" 7 times: [1]. [2] by De Telegraaf about Russian media is also clearly more than a passing mention.

  Cunard (talk) 08:02, 1 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Overturn to NC or relist. The close summary does have problems (per Cunard) and I just don't see consensus having formed in that discussion. That said, something does seem off about the discussion and I'd not object to a renewed (or entirely new) discussion. Hobit (talk) 16:07, 4 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]