Sydney Uni Lions (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

Presumably the article was deleted following a deletion discussion (rather than as a result of speedy deletion), in which case the DRVPURPOSE choice which applies would appear to be that the closer of the deletion discussion interpreted the consensus incorrectly or that there was substantial procedural error. Contrary to WP:GNG, the major stakeholders were never notified of the proposed deletion or given time to respond. Paul McDonald wondered in the deletion discussion whether the club was a "club" or a "university club" but failed to work out that the Sydney Uni Lions is the team entered by the Sydney University American Football Club in Division One of Gridiron New South Wales, and that the Sydney University American Football Club is a constituent member of Sydney Uni Sport & Fitness, the body which administers all sporting activities at the University of Sydney. There is no excuse for not having worked this out as this information was set out in the article. Here is a link to the club page on the Sydney Uni Sport & Fitness website (http://www.susf.com.au/page/american_football.html). Sydney Uni Sport & Fitness is the most successful sporting body in Australia. If it was a country, it would have beaten Mexico at the recent London Olympics. The American Football Club was awarded "Club of the Year" by Sydney Uni Sport & Fitness for 2012. That was the fourth time in its 30 year history that it has received the award. The closer of the deletion discussion failed to notify the University of Sydney, Sydney Uni Sport & Fitness or the Sydney University American Football Club of the proposed deletion of the article. Further, the reason given for deleting the article in the discussion - that the topic has not been the subject of significant coverage in reliable sources - is erroneous. The topic in the article has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject for over 30 years. I can provide scanned copies of various newspaper articles, if necessary. The information in the article spans the 30 year history of the club, so it is unsurprising that current newspaper articles do not mention some aspects of the topic. Most recently, a report on the Sydney Uni Lions winning the 2013 National Club Championship was published in Roar Magazine (circulation of 50,000). The recent 2013 GNSW championship game won by the Sydney Uni Lions was webcast live and seen all over the world. I would argue that this is significant coverage in a reliable source that was independent of the subject. So reliable that you could verify it with your own eyes. In any event, if the closer of the deletion discussion (whoever that was) needs me to place the evidence of the significant coverage of the Sydney Uni LIons directly into his hands, then I am happy to do so. (NB:Copied from User talk:Ronhjones) for 123.243.19.45 (talk) 01:37, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I closed this one as a consensus for delete. I did offer the IP to userfy the article, but we need a username to be able to do so. The IP asked for deletion review User_talk:Ronhjones#Sydney_Uni_Lions  Ronhjones  ^(Talk) 02:17, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - When I nominated this article for deletion, I notified the author the article. According to WP:AFD, there is an expectation that interested editors be notified but no requirement to contact the subject of the article. The relevant WikiProjects (Australia, Organizations, American football, Schools) were informed by inclusion on their deletion lists. The poster above makes a persuasive case for the Sydney University sports programme as a whole being notable but there is little evidence provided or found that attests to the notability of the American football team. There are mentions in routine coverage but after searching the Fairfax news archive, the Google News archive and Factiva, I was unable to find anything that would constitute sustained significant coverage. Hack (talk) 03:37, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It appears that I will need to spoon feed you with some examples of the significant coverage gained by the Sydney Uni Lions in reliable and independent sources. The University of Sydney is currently on vacation and I will not have access to my copies of this material for a few days. Please do not (again) unilaterally take action on this matter until we have had the opportunity to set you straight. I appreciate that you are keen to justify your previous decision but it is plain that you failed to notify the major stakeholders of the proposed deletion as required by WP:AFD. The suggestion that internal posting through Wikipedia notifies the major stakeholders is laughable. Please let me know what procedure will be followed from here. Who are you and what authority do you have to determine this matter? Is this decision left in your hands alone or are others involved? Are your decisions subject to any review? What criteria will you use to determine whether there has been "significant coverage"? If this farce is anything to go by, then I think the University of Sydney would be well advised to withdraw its financial support of Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.243.19.45 (talk) 04:25, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A public notice appeared on the article and was visible to all users for seven days per our policy. There is no requirement that subjects be informed under Wikipedia:Articles for deletion. I would suggest that you provide proof of notability rather than making threats. Hack (talk) 04:36, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Hack. As already discussed, posting a notice in Wikipedia visible for 7 days does not constitute notifying the major stakeholders as required by WP:AFD. Your policy is plainly flawed. As previously requested, please provide me with the criteria for "significant coverage". For your information, I have already sent a memorandum to the Vice Chancellor recommending the withdrawal of our funding support for Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.243.19.45 (talk) 05:05, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

WP:GNG. This is the general notability guideline. A topic must meet the requirements of this guideline

WP:ORG. This is the subject-specific guideline for organisations. Topics meeting this criteria are presumed to meet WP:GNG.

WP:SIGCOV. Significant coverage. This is the first criterion of WP:GNG.

WP:RS. Identifying Reliable Sources. This is the guide to which sources are reliable.

While there is no requirement to notify non-Wikipedia stakeholders, you may feel free to direct Dr Spence to this discussion. Hack (talk) 05:28, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• The history of the AfD indicates that it was open for less than 16 hours before it was closed as a delete. No one objected at the time, but since someone is now objecting, a relisting for a full seven days may be the right thing to do. --Arxiloxos (talk) 05:18, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• I don't have a problem with reopening but I don't see how the outcome will be anything other than delete. Hack (talk) 05:28, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

So, Hack, the University had only 16 hours notification, not 7 days? Do you accept that you did not follow your own policy? It would seem that the "right thing to do" would be to overturn a decision made in contravention of Wikipedia policy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.243.19.45 (talk) 05:52, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Not necessarily. Administrators have the power to delete earlier than seven days under the snowball clause - "When the outcome of the deletion discussion is almost certain, such that there is not a "snowball's chance in hell" that the outcome will be anything other than what is expected." I have amended my previous comment regarding seven days. Hack (talk) 05:58, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hack, your inability to accept your failure to follow your own policy only serves to confirm the flawed nature of this process. You clearly do not have the ability to review your previous decision with an open mind. Now that you have gone even further out on a limb by declaring you have relied on the "snowball" clause you have invested even more of your personal capital in upholding the decision. Please let me know if an editor who did not have any involvement in the original decision may take over the determination of this issue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.243.19.45 (talk) 06:12, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your concern. I have directed the Office of the Vice Chancellor to this thread and asked for their comment. Hack (talk) 06:43, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

If only you had been so enthusiastic in contacting the University before deleting the article. Hopefully, I will see Michael at the test match tomorrow and can raise it with him then. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.243.19.45 (talk) 06:58, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As I said above, there is no obligation to notify a subject of an article being proposed for deletion. Intimating that you have a close relationship with the Vice Chancellor does nothing to prove that the subject of this article is notable. The process has been followed and is being followed. Hack (talk) 08:12, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As I mentioned above, I will not get access to the archive material at the University for a few days. In due course, I will have someone look at the guidelines and provide you with relevant material. As a practical matter, how should copies of the material be sent to you? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.243.19.45 (talk) 08:21, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Registering as a user would allow for the article to be moved to a subpage under your name (userfied). This would prevent your IP address from showing when you make edits. Hack (talk) 08:31, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This was mentioned by ronhjones but I am afraid I do not understand how this helps. I mentioned to ronhjones that the original author, Aussiegriff, was happy to have the article "userfied". I have no problem with my IP address showing when I make edits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.243.19.45 (talk) 08:46, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The following page explains what's involved - Wikipedia:Why create an account?. Hack (talk) 08:55, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I can follow how to create an account but do not see how allowing the article to be userfied would assist in the process of getting it reinstated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.243.19.45 (talk) 09:14, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Relist, 16 hours was probably too short to allow all interested parties to have their say. Relist it for the full seven days, and then make a call after that. I would note that the clause in WP:AFD concerning notifications is not normally taken to mean that the subject of an article must be contacted, only those who have contributed substantially to the article and relevant projects. I find the rather accusatory and aggressive tone being taken by the IP here to be most unhelpful, lets let the discussion proceed in good faith and see where that takes us. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 09:21, 2 January 2014 (UTC).[reply]

Fair comment, Lankiveil. I am very much in favour of there being a discussion and that it proceed in good faith. I will hold my sarcasm in check. This is my first journey through the looking glass into Wikipedia and due process as practised in the real world does not seem to apply down here. Perhaps, in return, you can acknowledge that Wikipedia's high-handed approach in this matter has been the cause of much unnecessary frustration and annoyance. Please note that no one has answered my query as to how I can provide hard copies of relevant references to demonstrate the significant coverage of the Sydney Uni Lions over the last 30 years. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.243.19.45 (talk) 09:51, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Relist I see no harm in letting the AFD run its course. If the sources come in and they are proper, I'm open to changing my position.--Paul McDonald (talk) 12:41, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
• Relist - I see no evidence that the club is notable, and certainly no reason the subject of a Wikipedia article should be told when it's up for deletion (in fact given wp:COI and the normal behaviour of wp:SPAs round deletion discussions I recommend not notifying them). On the other hand 16 hours is not time for a deletion discussion to proceed on the grounds of notability. Especially not with so few responses. Neonchameleon (talk) 17:06, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]