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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Consensus is that this isn't appropriate for a separate article. Star Mississippi 02:27, 19 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Neo-Nazism in India[edit]

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Neo-Nazism in India (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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WP:POINTY stub created in order to avenge the deletion of Category:Neo-Nazism in India.[1] A WP:POVFORK of Neo-Nazism#India, there is nothing in the article which describe any foundation of "Neo-Nazism" in India. While it is possible that Neo-Nazim might have inspired some elements in Indian political discourse, just like it did all over the world, there is still no evidence that the ideology on its own exist in India.

A good example is that there is no Neo-Nazism in Japan and Neo-Nazism in Italy, even after Emperial Japan and Fascist Italy being allies with Nazi Germany during WW2. Wareon (talk) 15:15, 11 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Venkat TL (talk) 16:11, 11 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Venkat TL: I would recommend you to read WP:SIZERULE. It clearly states These rules of thumb apply only to readable prose and not to wiki markup size (as found on history lists or other means), and each kB can be equated to 1,000 characters. The article is much smaller than 100KB, you are quoting an incorrect figure.Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 09:15, 17 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge (was Delete) For the same reason I moved and redirected the content of Neo-Nazism in Costa Rica to Neo-Nazism: It seems it is a fringe topic in both countries that from time to time arise due to news about a handful of individuals, and that can be covered as a section in the article with the biggest scope. --Roqz (talk) 17:12, 11 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @Roqz, you are !voting for delete and arguing for merge. Venkat TL (talk) 17:19, 11 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, by reading the thread I assumed that the content was copied from Neo-Nazism and elsewhere to Neo-Nazism in India so we won't lose any content, but you are right, if any, the new content can be merged back to Neo-Nazism. My point is that a standalone article is not needed, a section in Neo-Nazism is fine. Updated my vote. --Roqz (talk) 17:43, 11 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Roqz According to WP:SIZERULE, articles with size > 100KB should be split into WP:CFORKS. Neo-Nazism is already at 178KB Well beyond the limit. The suggestion to merge it back is absurd. Venkat TL (talk) 21:55, 11 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note incorrect citation of sizerule. Responded to on the "Keep" recommendation by the editor.
@Venkat TL: If the problem is the Neo-Nazi article being bloated, wouldn't the most logical thing to do be turning a large section within the bloated article into a new article and replacing said section with a short, non-detailed summary? Instead, you pick one of the smallest, non-neutral sections from the bloated article, turn it into a new article, and then proceed to fill the new article with a generic definition, one-sided narratives and information about a vaguely related person; and mention a non-contentious film with a contentious title. Rockcodder (talk) 04:01, 12 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No. Nothing is undeserved there. See WP:CENSOR Venkat TL (talk) 04:17, 12 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I never said anything about anything there being undeserved. Please don't put words in my mouth. All I meant by 'non-neutral section' was the fact that Neo-Nazism#India represents the claim of Hindu nationalists having ties with "the totalitarian regimes" as fact but fails to clearly mention that there are reliable sources and experts who say/claim that Hindutva cannot be placed under the genus of fascism/nazism. Rockcodder (talk) 06:51, 12 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete The lead consists of a generic definition of Neo-Nazism, a direct lift from the 'India' section of the Neo-Nazism article and a small paragraph that presents a one-sided narrative about Hindutva and Modi. The 'People' section talks about Savitri Devi, who wasn't an Indian citizen. Her conversion to Hindusim and involvement in espionage against the Allies in India doesn't change this fact. The section then talks about a few 8chan trolls who identify as 'trads' (a fringe group within the Indian rightwing). The 'Incidents' section talks about school textbooks from Gujarat but doesn't mention the state education department's claim that the problems arose due to poor translation of the book from Gujarati into English.[1] The section then mentions a one-off incident about a pool parlour named Hitler's Den. Like Captain Jack Sparrow said above, mere admiration does not make you a Neo-Nazi. The section then mentions the Bulli Bai incident and calls its perpetrators a 'neo-Nazi-inspired alt-right group' based on a dubious claim from a Vice article. The 'Media' section mentions a movie named Dear Friend Hitler/Gandhi to Hitler which is based on the letters written by Gandhi where he addresses Hitler as 'dear friend'. Time to add Gandhi to the 'People' section? Rockcodder (talk) 21:03, 11 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "'Nazi' row over Indian textbooks". 23 July 2005.
  • Delete My issue is the article doesn't actually seem to describe neo-nazism in India.RKT7789 (talk) 07:42, 12 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete While the article is greatly expanded since some of the people above !voted delete, is still has similar problems: it describes many aspects associated with nazism in India, but they're either from an era before 'neo'-nazism became a thing (WW2), or it's about political groups that find inspiration in neo-nazism, but aren't neonazis themselves. Given the high risk of disruption in this topic area, I don't think a rewrite is desirable if at all possible. Femke (talk) 14:58, 12 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @Femkemilene, thanks for noting the improvement. Would a rename to Nazism in India satisfy you? There is a lot of material from post WW2, yet to be added here. I will add in coming days. Venkat TL (talk) 15:03, 12 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I think the overlap with Hindutva would be too large. With broad controversial articles, I would like to see very good reasons for articles with a lot of overlap to co-exist. It's difficult to maintain. Femke (talk) 15:21, 12 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @Femkemilene, if there is a lot of overlap, users will then merge the two articles. Nazism is one the prime characteristic of Hindutva. Right now Hindutva stands at 105KB already crossed the WP:SIZERULE of 100KB. So this is another reason this can co-exist with Hindutva. Neo-Nazism in India fills a specific void. There is a fast growing Neo Nazi base in India. Admiration for Nazism – often reframed with a genocidal hatred for Muslims – is rampant in the Hindu nationalist camp, which has never been as mainstream as it is now Haaretz Venkat TL (talk) 15:33, 12 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note incorrect citation of sizerule. Responded to on the "Keep" recommendation by the editor.
  • I may be able to be convinced if you find a high-quality source (so not an opinion piece) that clearly delineates the topics. I don't see that yet. Femke (talk) 15:36, 12 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Ok. (I forgot to add in my last comment above that) this article as it stands contains enough unique content to merit its existence as a standalone article beside Nazism and others. Venkat TL (talk) 15:48, 12 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The sources do not say anything like "There is a fast growing Neo Nazi base in India," but relies on false balances in making the comparison with Nazism and the ideologies in India. You would also want to include Arvind Kejriwal to this article[2] since you are so eager to promote trad-trolls as neo-nazis in India. 182.77.126.52 (talk) 17:11, 12 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as total absurd. The sources provided by the creator only appear to be equating hatred towards Muslims in India with hatred towards Jews in Germany. We already got Islamophobia in India, what else do we need? There is no Anti-semitism - the biggest requirement within Nazism - in India. The creator could make sense if they had created a Anti-Muslim activities equated with Neo-Nazism in India but nevertheless even that would get deleted. 182.77.126.52 (talk) 17:14, 12 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The creator is edit warring to restore his misrepresentation of sources and off-topic content he wants to include for the sake of expansion. @Femkemilene: This seems like a case of "throw enough garbage at the wall, some of it will stick", but editors here should ensure that none of that will stick. 182.77.126.52 (talk) 17:35, 12 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: Good grief. WP:SYNTH coupled with WP:OR. I'm especially unimpressed with the equating of the symbol on File:Jaipur 03-2016 38 Garh Ganesh Temple.jpg with the Nazi use of the Swastika, whcih it is not. This is trying to force the uneducated reader to a conclusion that cannot be drawn. There is something very WP:POINTY about this article. WP:NOTFORUM applies, with consideration of warning the creating editor and any who push this bizarre faux-argument as to their rights and responsibilities on Wikipedia FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 17:37, 12 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    For any editor doubting that the file referred to is used incorrectly in this article and thus adds to WP:SYNTH reading Swastika will be illuminating FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 18:25, 12 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment-The author claims to have expanded the article, though I find all the same issues still in the article. Further, new problematic sources have been introduced in an attempt to inflate the article. Sources like Haaretz, which is an opinion piece and thus not WP:RS, have been used as the basis for multiple paragraphs as well as an entire section. Article is still entirely without merit. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 17:57, 12 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Noting Large content removal during AfD. Should probably compare versions before deciding on deletion, though it looks like removal of SYNTH and OR. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 18:24, 12 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete The article's quality is obviously extremely bad, with the large amount of unreliable sources, as has been noted. It also seems to fundamentally misunderstand what Neo-nazism is. Most of the article is the history of Indian interaction with actual Nazism, and then a list of a few incidents which are not actually examples of Neo-Nazism. Since Neo-Nazism involves white supremacy and antisemitism, and there are hardly and whites or Jews in India, there simply isn't enough of a Neo-Nazi movement in India to be WP:NOTABLE, which is why this article has to resort to either using unreliable sources or WP:SYNTH. The creator's stated justification for splitting from an already dubious section in Neo-Nazism#India is nonsense - this doesn't help with the size of that article at all. --पदाति (talk) 00:08, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Neo Nazism involves antisemitism *AND* "Islamophobia". Your comment is the vanilla version of WP:IDONTLIKEIT to censor information. Venkat TL (talk) 06:13, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Just because something has characteristics associated with Neo-Nazism doesn't make it Neo-Nazism. Antisemitism is a key component of Neo-Nazism which is not largely prevalent in India. Many Neo-Nazis are Islamophobes, but Islamophobia is not necessarily Neo-Nazism. --पदाति (talk) 06:42, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @Venkat TL: No he's right, point to an actual case of neo-nazism in the article, I can't seem to find any. Savitri Devi would be acceptable except she didn't spend the post-war years in India, so adding her is a bit deceptive. If the article was named "Far-right in India", I'd accept it.RKT7789 (talk) 06:47, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Looks like I have to teach you what Neo Nazism is. Copy from Neo-Nazi

References

  1. ^ Gay, Kathlyn (1997) Neo-Nazis: A Growing Threat. Enslow. p. 114. ISBN 978-0894909016. Quote: "Neo-Nazis ... use fear and violence in their efforts to destroy minorities. Their goal is to establish a "superior" society."(emphasis added)
  2. ^ Staff (ndg) "Ideologies: Neo Nazi" Southern Poverty Law Center. Quote: "While some neo-Nazi groups emphasize simple hatred, others are more focused on the revolutionary creation of a fascist political state." (emphasis added)
  • small jewish population means Antisemitism is not predominantly seen, it is Islamophobia that is the dominant in Indian Nazis. Since the Indians are non white, apart from white Supremacy, Indian Nazis demonstrate all the others forms of hatred listed above. Venkat TL (talk) 06:49, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    That doesn't make them Neo-Nazis. --पदाति (talk) 06:52, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I am telling you what Scholars say. You are here to WP:Censor, so it is obvious. Do not ping me again.
    @Venkat TL: Your quote isn't a definition of Neo-Nazism, it's a description of some of the actions Neo-Nazis often take. Just because some ideologies have some similarities with Neo-Nazism doesn't make them Neo-Nazi. Antisemitism and White Supremacy are key components of Neo-Nazism, you can't just dismiss that. Please WP:AGF instead of throwing around accusations of censorship - this isn't the first time you have done this.
    And even by your own definition people quoted in the article arent neo-nazis. Even JFK said nice things about Hitler, but Nazism is an actual ideology, not just "when you're racist".RKT7789 (talk) 07:08, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Why dont you guys stop pinging me and start emailing the historians and scholars who have written these scholarly references (linked in the article) about the rise of Neo-Nazism in India. Venkat TL (talk) 07:11, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @Venkat TL: Why did you invite people to take part in the discussion if you dont want them to present their opinions?RKT7789 (talk) 07:17, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    To address the angry comment you left on my talk page, you aren't outright deleting peoples comments but you do get very angry when they present them. Just saying.RKT7789 (talk) 07:24, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @Venkat TL: I have no dispute with the scholars. You are the one doing WP:SYNTH to try to claim they're saying something they're not. --पदाति (talk) 09:03, 15 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep A spin-off article for a specific region is not a WP:POVFORK. Neo-Nazism is a global movement, and we could use articles on its local variants. Dimadick (talk) 14:40, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
In this case it seems to be a POVFORK because no effort was made to add content to the actual article in the first place. Neo-Nazism has had a presence only in 31 countries (none in India) so far, some of which no longer have any neo-Nazi organizations. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 17:50, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. There's a subtle but critical distinction between (A) scholarly material that analyzes similarities and connections between Nazism and the contemporary strand of Hindu nationalism, and (B), Neo-nazism in India. There's ample scholarly material in category (A), but none of it covers neo-nazism specifically; and I say this having read over a hundred scholarly pieces about the history and ideology of Hindu nationalism. The content in this article is synthesis of the forbidden sort, i.e., material from multiple sources thrown together to reach conclusions completely supported by none of them. The only sources I see actually discussing neo-nazism in India are the vice.com source and the Wire source, which are not enough for an article. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:32, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom and Vanamonde the only sources dealing with neo nazism in India are Vice and Wire clearly not enough for an article.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 13:03, 14 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - I agree with nom, Timtrent, and Vanamonde. The primary contributor neglected to distinguish Nazism and Hindutva. Nazism is founded on anti-Jewish white supremacy. Where are whites in Indian politics? As scholars mention, Hindu nationalism's intention to wipe out Muslims may sound similar to the Nazi's intention to wipe out Jews, however, scholars mindfully used the term "almost fascism" when connotating that objective, which had also attracted a fair amount of criticism. This article is in violation of WP:SYNTH, WP:OR and WP:POVFORK. And, Hindutva#Fascist and Nazi undertones article does a better job of elucidating "almost fascism" phrasing. WikiLinuz🍁(talk) 07:09, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    To reason further, Vinayak Damodar Savarkar, wildly considered to be the father of Hindu nationalism, articulated his flavor towards the Jews, which subverts the whole literal ideology of Nazism, Antisemitism and Neo-Nazism to begin with.

    If the Zionists' dreams are ever realized—if Palestine becomes a Jewish State and it will gladden us almost as much as our Jewish friends— they, like the [...]
    — Vinayak Damodar Savarkar. Essentials of Hindutva (PDF). p. 52.

    WikiLinuz🍁(talk) 07:20, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    WikiLinuz, this is a ludicrous defense.
    As our article notes:

    As World War II become imminent, Savarkar advocated a policy of neutralism centered on India's geostrategic equations but his rhetoric grew coarser and he expressed consistent support for Hitler's policy about Jews. In a speech on October 14, it was suggested that Hitler's ways be adopted for dealing with Indian Muslims. On December 11, he characterized the Jews as a communal force. Next March, Savarkar would welcome Germany's revival of Aryan culture, their glorification of Swastika, and the "crusade" against Aryan enemies — it was hoped that German victory would finally invigorate the Hindus of India.

    By the end of 1939, he was directly equating the Muslims of India with German Jews — in the words of Chetan Bhatt, both were suspected of harboring extra-national loyalties and became illegitimate presences in an organic nation. It remains unknown whether Savarkar withdrew his support for Nazi Germany after the Holocaust became common knowledge. However, in 1961 he had spoken favorably of Hitler's Nazism.

    Fwiw, I don't deem Savarkar to be an anti-semite either. Nuance etc.
    That being said, closers are requested to not consider my comment to be in support of preserving this article. See my !vote below. TrangaBellam (talk) 10:15, 17 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @TrangaBellam: The book I quoted is a primary work of Savarkar, and it's solely used to show that he himself was not anti-semitic, specifically - the only purpose it serves. Be it Nazism or Neo-Nazism, the literal ideology is centered around antisemitism and white supremacy. I'm aware of the nuances, but thanks. WikiLinuz🍁(talk) 19:40, 17 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge - a short summary to Nazi_chic#Asia - GizzyCatBella🍁 09:21, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Oppose merge to Nazi_chic#Asia - This article has nothing to do with "the use of Nazi-era style, imagery, and paraphernalia in clothing and popular culture,".
    Merge relevant parts (below extract) to Nazi chic#Asia

    In 2006, a restaurant named Hitler's Cross was opened in Mumbai, it was later renamed after protests by the Indian Jewish community.[1] 'Nazi Collection' Bedspread was launched, by a Mumbai-based home furnishing company in 2007.[2] In 2007, in Gujarat a men's clothing store named Hitler was in the news. After the outrage owners claimed they did not know Adolf Hitler.[3]

    In 2011, a pool parlour named Hitler's Den was opened in Nagpur. It included Nazi insignia and Swastika. The Israeli embassy in India expressed displeasure with the naming. Simon Wiesenthal Center, an international Jewish human rights organisation called for the parlour to be renamed. The owners of the establishment refused to rename their parlour.[4][5]

    @Piotrus: Rockcodder (talk) 11:01, 16 February 2022 (UTC); edited 13:12, 18 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Mumbai's 'Hitler's Cross' Restaurant to Change Name After Uproar". Haaretz. Retrieved 12 February 2022.
  2. ^ "'Nazi Collection' Bedspread Outrages Indian Jews". Haaretz. Retrieved 12 February 2022.
  3. ^ "'Hitler' Clothing Store in India Asked by Jewish Community to Change Name". Haaretz. Retrieved 12 February 2022.
  4. ^ Choudhari, Abhishek (22 March 2011). "'Hitler's Den' angers Israeli embassy | Nagpur News - Times of India". The Times of India. Retrieved 10 February 2022.
  5. ^ "Jewish rights body demand renaming of 'Hitler's Den' in Nagpur". NDTV.com. Retrieved 10 February 2022.
  • Oppose merge. The editor seems to have mixed up the usage of Swastik in Hinduism to the usage of Swastika in Nazi propaganda. Not surprising given the amount of misleading statements and images in the article drawing false parallels to Hindu imagery. Pointed out by FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me before.Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 12:20, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Oppose merge; as I discuss above, any scholarly material currently featured in the article compares and contrasts Hindutva and Nazism; it does not establish the presence of literal nazism in India. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:14, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, not merge, this POV fork. Binksternet (talk) 21:46, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. This article relies upon WP:SYNTH and WP:OR, and thus should not be merged. Regards, Yamaguchi先生 (talk) 22:06, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Nothing in this article is actually about neo-Nazism in India. About half the article talks about the 1930s and 40s, which is not "neo". Then there are mentions of school textbooks, but the article does not claim that these textbooks are connected to neo-Nazism. Then there are mentions of various incidents, which again the article does not claim are actually connected to neo-Nazism. The only thing left is the section about trads, which is primarily a Western phenomenon that has gained some traction in India; only three sentences are actually about trads in India as opposed to trads in general. And to top it all off, everything in those three sentences is already in Neo-Nazism#India. So this article is pointless. Mlb96 (talk) 08:39, 17 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per Vanamonde. TrangaBellam (talk) 10:15, 17 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per WP:SYNTH. I don't think I can add much else to what Vanamonde has already said. Tayi Arajakate Talk 14:43, 17 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge the tiny relevant fraction to Nazi_chic#Asia then redirect this there or disambiguate between that article and Neo-Nazism#India. Despite what has been suggested above, there is some relevant content, as shown by references such as this, this or this. Quote:
This IS Nazi chic stuff. Although I concur that majority of the current article is NOT related to Nazi chic and not mergeable, my point is that those few sentences are relevant and should be preserved by merging before the rest of this article is deleted or redirected. I think User:GizzyCatBella was right. @Rockcodder, Timtrent, and Vanamonde93: --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:25, 18 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This has been added to the Asia section by Tayi Arajakate, thanks.Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 14:45, 18 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If anyone wishes to salvage that tiny piece of content, I don't particularly care, but the incidents in question are only reported on as incidents; not a coherent whole. There's still a synthesis problem. Furthermore, a redirect would be utterly inappropriate; redirecting "Neo-nazism in India" to an incident about bedspreads is trivializing the issue. The title shouldn't exist, because it's not received treatment in reliable sources; but if we're concerned with it as a search term, it should go to the relevant section of Hindutva, not to Nazi-chic. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:53, 18 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Neo-Nazism_in_India