The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus‎. There is not a particular consensus as to whether this article should exist in its current form, but there is similarly no consensus to remove it. Several editors have suggested renaming the article to broaden its scope, but this is a discussion which can take place outside AfD. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 03:07, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Murder of Michalis Katsouris[edit]

Murder of Michalis Katsouris (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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WP:SENSATION. Hard to make heads or tails of this as written. jps (talk) 16:53, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Crime, Events, Football, Croatia, and Greece. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 20:47, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 23:34, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete – Michalis Katsouris is not a notable individual (Michalis Katsouris redirects to the article up for deletion), and this is not a notable incident. It is unfortunate that he was killed during a sports riot, but it is not terribly uncommon. Concur with nom that this seems WP:SENSATIONAL. — Jkudlick ⚓ (talk) 00:47, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename and refactor – I am striking my previous !vote to concur with expanding the article's scope to cover the riot as a whole rather than focusing on the murder of a single non-notable individual. — Jkudlick ⚓ (talk) 15:40, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• I wonder if it would be better placed under a different title. The riot itself was certainly front page news for days. SportingFlyer T·C 09:12, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - Comments Nominator is too focused on the title and not the whole picture, the title of the article and a redirect of the current title needs to be addressed. The basis of the article is okay, but in essence the focus has been taken away from the hooligan event to which the murder happened. This is an imbedded event inside an already greater event in Greek football history. I suggest that this will need to be partially rewritten and examined. I don't think a TNT is in order. A title rename to something like August 2023 Nea Filadelfeia hooligan riots and expand into that. Regards. Govvy (talk) 10:08, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I put this up for deletion precisely because I could not determine its notability owing to the writing and the bizarre sourcing. I would be thrilled if cleanup resulted in an article that was kept, but the article as written looked very nearly like a bizarre political screed to this poor, uninitiated reader of articles about soccer riots. jps (talk) 12:25, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Why would you call the sourcing bizarre? It incorporates articles from basically every major Croatian news outlet. SportingFlyer T·C 13:13, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Some text did not align with the sources. jps (talk) 15:34, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep, clearly significant coverage that passes GNG. Should be cleaned up not deleted.--Ortizesp (talk) 19:01, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Rename to broaden the scope to the riots. Like most murders, this one is not notable, but the riots might be. We should also wipe most of the "reactions" section, which as usual has attracted an indiscriminate collection of statements. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 04:36, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. Soccer riots, even those where people get killed, are unfortunately nothing out of the ordinary. And as this only happened a few weeks ago, there's no way of knowing whether there will be sustained coverage my hunch is "no"). Also, WP:NOTNEWSPAPER. --Randykitty (talk) 12:44, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Plenković talked about it at his press conference just this week, so the coverage is already starting to be sustained. SportingFlyer T·C 13:27, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  @Randykitty: For starters, you're completely wrong, we do record most riots on wikipedia. Just take this template as an example.

• And that is just a collection of the riots in England. What you call NOTNEWS and not sustained coverage is completely wrong. Because if you analyse the events we will see there is sustained coverage and it's still on going. These riots have in fact result in the Greek people persecuting Croatians further from the event, but related too. Govvy (talk) 14:19, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Forgive me for not being impressed with 3 weeks of coverage, that's not really what "sustained" means. And your template more or less makes my point by listing notable riots, but few (or even none) soccer-related riots. --Randykitty (talk) 21:58, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep - Clearly notabl topic with ramifications. Thanks, Das osmnezz (talk) 15:59, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep as above - article needing re-writing/re-naming is not an issue. GiantSnowman 16:57, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete – questionable encyclopedical notability. But even if meeting standards for notability, language isn't unbiased and the article is written tendentiously. Motifs are still unclear and some information are media speculations.--Mudroslov (talk) 20:36, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Elements like renaming or editorial improvements can happen if it is decided to Keep this article.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 19:46, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment it would be nice if one of the people who commented here would show us what an article that focused on the riot would look like in comparison to this current piece. I tried to write one myself, but found a lot of the sources were difficult to use in light of verifying what actually happened (there appear to be contradictory stories in some of the sources, for example). This is far outside my wheelhouse, so I'm not sure if my inability to figure out how to write about this is due to my inexperience or due to systemic issues that mean it is impossible to write such an article. Oh, and if there could be consensus for what the renamed article should be, that would be welcome too. I see one suggestion above, but it is not clear to me if the other !voters like that name (I must admit calling something a "hooligan riot" doesn't pass the knee-jerk WP:NPOV test in my mind, but if that's what these things are called, that's what they're called). jps (talk) 15:56, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong Keep, per all the sources that this article has makes this very infamous. Davidgoodheart (talk) 03:48, 8 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete: WP:NOTNEWS, there is nothing showing this will have any WP:LASTING impact.  // Timothy :: talk  23:27, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - with all the sourcing this article has of different sources of course it should be kept ((User: Suncheon Boy]] 8:38, 11 September 2023 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Suncheon Boy (talk • contribs) — Suncheon Boy (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• keep - and why not, this article has 38 good sources and that is surely keep worthy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.81.183.250 (talk) 20:43, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.