The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. A Weak Keep but Keep it is. There is already an article at Ante Pavlović and it's arguable whether or not this Ante Pavlović should be moved to that title in its place. I'll leave the Move decision to a discussion that can occur on the article talk page. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 03:35, 29 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Following of Ante Pavlović[edit]

Following of Ante Pavlović (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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Now this, I promise you, is interesting. Ante Pavlović was a self-proclaimed 'chiropractor' and sometime psychiatric patient, whose unpleasant erratic, extreme, violent and anti-social behaviour got him some passing notoriety in the more lurid Croatian press - including TV shows and even appears to have gained him some sort of following. So we have coverage and some degree of notoriety, but we're hardly Charles Manson and more of a public nuisance. Outside of Croatia and the complaints of his long-suffering neighbours, he is unknown. Do we need a page about the 'Following of Ante Pavlović'? The fact of that following is not the focus of the media and is not in itself notable other than a passing commentary on human culpability. So I would argue that no, we do not need this article and so this would duly be deleted. We might argue about a short biography being appropriate, but this is not that article. We could move the page title to Ante Pavlović but then this would all have to be rewritten to be biographical and it leaves me with the question - does a psychiatrically unbalanced man whose only media attention is for complaints about his awful behaviour in a foreign country merit an article in the English Wikipedia? Even if it DOES, technically, pass WP:GNG. Over to you, good people. Alexandermcnabb (talk) 11:19, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Medicine, Psychiatry, and Croatia. Alexandermcnabb (talk) 11:19, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Move and reorganize How on earth did you find this? After reading comments below, I've changed my !vote from delete to move. As long as he wasn't just a local nuisance, he deserves (reluctantly) a page. The paragraph on "The Following" should be at the end of the article, and the title should be something like: Ante Pavlović (cult leader)".— rsjaffe 🗣️ 11:38, 15 October 2022 (UTC), edited 17:38, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  New Page Patrol! It's a route to many wonderous things! :P Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 12:14, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Without going knee-deep into non-English sources, I'm at this stage making a judgment based on the page and what Alexandermcnabb says above. It sounds like the guy is notable and that there are enough sources to meet the GNG. That said, I'm not sure about the title or the way the content is written - given there appear to have been victims of what appears to have been some kind of cult, maybe we want to be more circumspect about the details. So I think I'm a very weak keep but stubify (if that's a word) the page to remove the tabloidy details. I won't be crying if I lose this !vote JMWt (talk) 11:41, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Just to add @Alexandermcnabb:, please don't take this the wrong way, but I wonder if you might think a little bit more carefully about the language you use: we here are an English language encyclopedia. It is very possible that we have Croatian colleagues who work to improve en.wiki in English who are no more foreign than anyone else. There is no more or less notability in something that happens in Croatia simply based on location than if it happened wherever you live. JMWt (talk) 11:49, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

My intention is certainly not to belittle anyone - but a local event, or series of events, covered entirely in Croatian language media and with no impact other than purely locally within Croatia, strike me as being of arguable relevance to Enwiki. That was my only point - and certainly your thoughtful comment is in no way taken in the wrong way! Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 12:14, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The general notability guideline explicitly states, Sources do not have to be available online or written in English. (Original emphasis.) Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 02:37, 16 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not arguing that Croatian sources are invalid, I'm arguing that the brief and misguided following of an unpleasant local nuisance is not notable and that, additionally, we may consider the nuisance itself to not be notable, even though technically there are secondary local sources to meet GNG. Or do we cover every violent, sadistic thug that made local news anywhere in the world? Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 06:57, 16 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

To me, "purely locally" refers to a region the size of a city or slightly larger. If he's notorious within Croatia, I wouldn't call that local. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 17:40, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Move. The article title is inappropriate, as it is mostly about Ante Pavlović himself rather than his "following". However, I'm not sure what the proper qualifier for him would be as it is unclear whether he was legitimately a chiropractor, and terms such as "healer" and "cult leader" would be non-neutral in opposite ways. Therefore, move Ante Pavlović to Ante Pavlović (footballer), and then move Following of Ante Pavlović to Ante Pavlović. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 04:49, 16 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Well, I have to object to this last part - this Ante Pavlović isn't the primary topic for his name, as it's a reasonably generic and common Croatian name, and it would be a fair bit bizarre if we short-circuited navigation towards this peculiar one. Indeed on the Croatian Wikipedia there's actually eponymous articles on two completely different people that would not be unlikely to get translated into English at some point, too, so that's already 4 known eponymous notable people. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 16:54, 20 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm open to the possibility of a different move, as long as we can find a neutral qualifier for his name. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 18:38, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: To allow time to reach consensus, which is pretty evenly split at the moment.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Onel5969 ^{TT me} 12:30, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Weak keep but rename. I'd expect this to be a fork from an Ante Pavlovic article... It seems well sourced, unsure how many of them are RS, but I'd give it a pass.Oaktree b (talk) 14:57, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• I will offer Weak keep but rename that might need reorganizing. @Alexandermcnabb:, This one is a little better than the one where notability is supposedly evident because the "subject" "almost won" and in 2022 was "the lowest ranked person on the ATP singles ranking." -- Otr500 (talk) 03:40, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.