Council
This page relates to the WikiProject Council, a collaborative effort regarding WikiProjects in general. If you would like to participate, please visit the project discussion page.CouncilWikipedia:WikiProject CouncilTemplate:WikiProject CouncilCouncil articles

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I stumbled upon Wikipedia: WikiProject Black Women Creatives which seems to have been created in 2016, but never listed anywhere. Can someone go about an regularize this WPP? (ie. list it, add it to the category tree, check activity status, etc) -- 67.70.33.184 (talk) 07:15, 24 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What a coincidence! I also recently stumbled upon that page. I posted at WikiProject Women in Red since I hoped that would be the active group most interested in helping out with the project. Also the page has {{Project}} at the top, which categorizes it into Category:Active WikiProjects. It's not in the manually updated project directory yet, but I'm hoping to go through and update the (seriously outdated) directory in the next few months. Thanks for bringing it up here. Feel free to post at other talk pages to try to drum up support for picking up where Wikipedia:WikiProject Black Women Creatives has left off. Ajpolino (talk) 15:58, 24 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It hasn't got a WikiProject banner template. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 19:49, 24 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hello all! I'm writing a WikiProject Report for the Signpost, and I was wondering if there is a place I can view recently created wikiprojects, as I would like to write about a new one. Thanks! (BTW, please respond here and ping me. Thank you all! Puddleglum2.0 ^{Have a talk?} 02:46, 1 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Puddleglum2.0: See WikiProject List and sort by the Created column. --Bamyers99 (talk) 14:35, 1 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

so there is an archived wikiproject that was never officially created but the person who was making it has left wikipedia and I would like to start it up again and continue it is there a way to do that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Carri796 (talk • contribs) 03:36, 29 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Carri796, a WikiProject is our jargon for a group of people that like working together. It's not something that needs to be "officially" created. WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:08, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Following a successful proposal, WikiProject A Cappella has begun work! If you are interested in joining, please do! You can read the instructions on our main page. Thanks! Puddleglum ^2.0 19:32, 8 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

sounds terrific. thanks for your note, Puddleglum2.0. will take a look. --Sm8900 (talk) 16:07, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi everyone. I am a new coordinator page admin at WikiProject History. I took that role simply by vounteering for it. none of the other past coordinators are active there any more. I have posted the notice below on the project's main page, and a similar one on the project's talk page. if anyone here would like to get involved, help out, or else simply say hello there or let us know what you're up to, please feel free to drop by and write a note. We'd welcome your comments, and would be glad to hear from you. I welcome everyone's input. and you can feel free to reply here as well thanks!!

Message posted:

Hi everyone. I am writing to ask for any volunteers who might like to help out, or to get more involved here at WikiProject History. Right now, we would like to get WikiProject History up and running again. A number of people have signed up in the past, and indicated their willingness to be involved. If you're still here, we need you!!

You can reply here in this section, or else on on the project's talk page, even if it's just to say hello. If you want, you can reply simply let me know what you are personally working on right now. or also, if you want, you can let me know what your interests are, what topics you find interesting, what you;d like to do, or how you'd like to be involved. whatever it may be, we'd like to hear from you. we appreciate it. thanks!! --Sm8900 (talk) 14:55, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Feel free to write back. thanks!! --Sm8900 (talk) 15:41, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Sm8900: Sounds cool, I'm in! Puddleglum ^2.0 00:51, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Puddleglum2.0, thanks!! I hope to move ahead with a few efforts in this area at once. Also, please feel free to look at and comment on my idea below. thanks!! --Sm8900 (talk) 05:28, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have added WikiProject History to the directory of active WikiProjects. thanks. --Sm8900 (talk) 05:35, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have reverted my own edit to the directory of active WikiProjects, to show the correct current status of WikiProject History as semi-inactive. thanks. --Sm8900 (talk) 15:19, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• I am surprised to see WP History is not listed as active. I am not too sure how activity is measured but it seems to me people are still frequently including the WP History template on their talk pages. Indeed, it looks to me that any wikiproject with over 50,000 articles is pretty active (especially as well over 1000 are GA or higher). May I suggest it may be useful to consolidate ties with Women's History which now contains almost 47,000 articles, many of them biographies of women who were active before 1950. Members of WP History might be interested in collaborating on improving some of these up to GA.--Ipigott (talk) 11:18, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi everyone. I would like to suggest that we think about creating a list of active participants here. there are a few reasons for this.

1. the whole point of a "council" is to be an actual, active functioning group of individuals.
2. the best way to make this council a real resource is to make it easy to find people who are actually active, involved, and willing to help out.
3. given that some wikiprojects are highly active, some are only slightly active, and some are not active at all, it makes basic sense that this WikiProject Council would be able to point users to the wikiprojects that are most active, including some information on their individual coordinators.

I hope to move ahead with this in the near future. I will keep you posted. feel free to comment. thanks!!! --Sm8900 (talk) 05:26, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

ok, moving ahead. thanks. --Sm8900 (talk) 03:30, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think that the point of this group is for people who are active in other WikiProjects to have an easy way to talk to other people who are interested in WikiProjects. Think of it more like "active WikiProjects should ask a couple of people to watchlist this" than "we should try to be active here for its own sake".

There's not necessarily much point in sending people to the most active WikiProjects. The biggest handful are easy to spot, but (a) not everyone wants to join a big group and (b) most editors care more about the subject area than the group size. If you're into food, then it doesn't matter if WikiProject Food isn't one of the most active groups; it's still the best place to meet people who are also interested in food. WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:13, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

thanks, but sorry, I disagree. there are many possible reasons an editor might want to know which WikiProjects are most active. for one thing, we are here to help people with the process of building WikiProjects, not the process of writing about any particular topic in itself. so therefore, if someone is simply trying to find out how to build a successful WikiProject, one great way to get some information is to look at any existing WikiProject that is highly successful, and well-managed, even those for different subject areas. the point of having a council is to be a central clearinghouse on the topic of WikiProjects themselves, as you know. I appreciate your ideas on this. thanks! --Sm8900 (talk) 23:25, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Have you looked at Wikipedia:WikiProject Directory? It is periodically updated by a bot with metrics of activity within the associated articles, and on the corresponding WikiProject pages. isaacl (talk) 23:37, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

good point, isaacl, I will take a look there. this talk page is providing some good ideas. thanks. --Sm8900 (talk) 23:45, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This is part of what concerns others, I think. If you're making extensive updates without knowing what resources are already present on the page, I strongly suggest working in a sandbox instead of making live updates. isaacl (talk) 23:47, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Radio check:

hi there!! is anyone actually here? Please reply, if you are. thanks!!! --Sm8900 (talk) 01:41, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Watching --Bamyers99 (talk) 02:49, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Also here. Glad to hear of new life being breathed into WikiProject History. Ambivalent on an explicit participants list. Glad to see you're interested in livening up this page! Ajpolino (talk) 03:15, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Me too, watching. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 08:40, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In the last few hours there have been something like 75 changes to the main page. I have concerns about some of these changes, particularly from an accessibility standpoint (leaving blank lines in lists is just one instance): but I don't have time to properly review them all, so am unwatching this page. Sm8900, you may consider yourself to have driven me out. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 19:33, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Redrose64, I'm very sorry to hear that. I hope you will reconsider. i am open to discussing or any or all of the changes. if anyone wishes to discuss, please feel free to let me know. thanks. --Sm8900 (talk) 19:37, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Another watcher. Been thinking about this Council lately. Jusdafax (talk) 03:32, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

And me.--Ipigott (talk) 10:49, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

thanks for all your replies! Appreciate it. --Sm8900 (talk) 04:09, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

On the list of most active wikiprojects, WP Council does not appear among the first 100. I would be interested to see where it would be placed if the list was presented on the basis of the no bots count. It seems to me that with 708, it would be much higher on the list. Maybe it would be worthwhile relisting them all on this basis.--Ipigott (talk) 10:56, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ipigott, that query only measured how often a WikiProject's pages got edited three and a half years ago. I don't think anyone cares how often WikiProject Council's pages get edited. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:23, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

WhatamIdoing: Thanks for your explanations. SM's efforts seem at least to be reviving some interest. I was surprised to see the Council project was listed as semi-active. That, for me, is an indication that it is probably not worthwhile investigating further. I can see from recent discussions that in fact there are several dedicated contributors who consider the project is both important and active. As one of the more active members of WikiProject Women in Red, I frequently consult lists of active wikiprojects as a means of seeking collaboration on WiR topics of potential common interest. Until now, I have unfortunately never included Council although I recognize now that on occasion it may have been useful to do so, for example in connection with the revamping of many of the main wikiproject pages to match the Project X format. It simply seems to me that the current method of deciding whether a project is active is not the best way to go about things, especially as bots seem to be responsible for many of the higher ratings. In the case of WP Council, the fact that you get around 120 page views a day is significant - far more than WP Women writers which is considered to be active. Finally, as the query in question is dated, it would at least be useful if it could be rerun to reflect today's situation.--Ipigott (talk) 08:03, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've asked J-Mo to re-run the query, so you can have current data, and also to rename it, if he can think of something a bit clearer about what it represents. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:23, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sm8900: I have just noticed that WikiProject Women in Green does not appear to be included in the lists. I have just created Category:WikiProject Women in Green but don't know whether that is sufficient to have it listed. If is isn't, please let me know what more I should do. It's a pretty active and successful project, its main aim being to improve women's biographies (and other articles about women) up to GA class (i.e. green) and beyond. The project is closely related to WP Women in Red.--Ipigott (talk) 11:40, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Because Women in Green is structured as a task force of Wikipedia:WikiProject Women (which does appear), it will not show up on the lists. Feel free to move it out, to Wikipedia:WikiProject Women in Green (currently a redirect) UnitedStatesian (talk) 13:49, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

well, that's a great point, from both of you. @Ipigott:, if you do want that listed, we'd be glad to do so; we can simply list it as a sub-item under the main WikiProject. would you like us to do so? thanks. --Sm8900 (talk) 19:18, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I would first like to see what the project coordinator Alanna the Brave and perhaps SusunW think about it. For the record, Women in Red also used to be dependent on WP Women but we decided it was much better to become a separate project. It looks to me that with the increasing interest in Women in Green, the time has come to make that a fully fledged wikiproject too.--Ipigott (talk) 07:11, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I am not remotely sure even what this means. As everyone is aware, I am not technically inclined. I don't understand what list the project would be on. Am assuming there is a list of WikiProjects somewhere, but the search engine we have (which is never intuitive to me) does not make that easy to find. Literally, if I want to find a WikiProject, I find an article name that I think would be in that realm and look at what projects it has listed on its talk page. For example, I just finished a biography of a woman who worked in coffee production, I went to coffee production to see what projects it had listed. As to how it should be listed, I would think as a sub-project of WikiProject Women, since it is only one facet of our work on women, i.e. like Women in Red, Women in sport, Women writers, etc. My second thought on it is that separating it, makes it harder to obtain metrics on all women, as then one must know which separate projects are related. Keeping them all as sub-projects seems to me the easiest way to obtain usable data, as the connections are clear. But, if it is possible to separate them and keep the connections clear, it really doesn't matter. As ever, I bow to whatever consensus is reached. SusunW (talk) 14:30, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

From your comments, SusunW, it looks to me as if one of the priorities for WP Council is to create an up-to-date list of wikiprojects with summary details of scope and activity. The list I was looking at was Wikipedia:Database reports/WikiProjects by changes which is 30 months old. Unfortunately there does not appear to be a list of activity by page views or by the number of tags added to talk pages.--Ipigott (talk) 15:56, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Having Women in Green listed as a sub-project of WikiProject Women sounds fine to me for now -- the possibility of upgrading it to a full WikiProject is something we'll have to talk about with other WiG members. :-) I'm interested in seeing what WP Council might have to offer, but it seems like WP Council's members are currently in the midst of discussing big changes to the project, so it might be prudent to wait a little while until things have settled down. Alanna the Brave (talk) 17:30, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

User:Sm8900, it appears that you are boldly re-writing the group's page. Can you explain what you hope to accomplish?

So far, it appears that you have:

• made relatively minor wording changes,
• created a list of participants (which I blanked, because this group previously decided not to have one),
• hid the decorative headers (why?), and
• added a section Wikipedia:WikiProject Council#WikiProjects information that probably belongs at Wikipedia:WikiProject, if it belongs anywhere. To give some examples of problems with this section's content, it seems that you have misunderstood what the Quarry query is measuring (also, it does not update automatically), and you are emphasizing WikiProjects with formally identified coordinators, which is a very unusual model (even if we were willing to overlook the fact that some of these alleged "active coordinators" haven't edited at all during the last year or longer).

WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:38, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

WhatamIdoing, thanks so much for your helpful questions above. yes, I have been making some revisions. I feel that this page has a lot of potential; it would be worthwhile to revise in order to get this valuable resource restored, and revitalized, in order to start using it as an active forum and resource. I greatly appreciate and admire, the forthright and helpful way that you have opened this up for discussion.

I will be glad to answer your excellent and helpful questions.

• made relatively minor wording changes,
  • Reply: true
• created a list of participants (which I blanked, because this group previously decided not to have one),
  • Reply: I appreciate your note, but I disagree with this. the lack of a list of participants has not promoted activity here; on the contrary, activity has greatly declined. I'm willing to wait on this, and would like to seek some consensus to restore this.
• hid the decorative headers (why?),
  • Reply: the decorative headers were simply impeding active editing of this article; clicking the "edit" link only opened the text of the header template, not the section beneath. I did retain the initial header, though.
• added a section Wikipedia:WikiProject Council#WikiProjects information that probably belongs at Wikipedia:WikiProject, if it belongs anywhere. To give some examples of problems with this section's content, it seems that you have misunderstood what the Quarry query is measuring (also, it does not update automatically), and you are emphasizing WikiProjects with formally identified coordinators, which is a very unusual model (even if we were willing to overlook the fact that some of these alleged "active coordinators" haven't edited at all during the last year or longer).
  • Reply: okay, fair enough, but some of that data is definitely current; other data may not be. I can provide attribution to indicate which ones are current.

my goal is to make this page into an active resource; and also, a functioning body. the name "Council" implies that we do serve some purpose. I'd like to help to make that an active reality.

I appreciate your helpful questions, and would be glad to discuss further. Thanks!! --Sm8900 (talk) 20:47, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Activity has declined because the need for activity has declined. It took years, but we've settled most of the internecine wars between WikiProjects. "The rules" (e.g., about who decides what's in scope for a group, and what WikiProject advice pages are allowed to do) have been largely accepted.

Lists of participants are an endless ugly maintenance problem for groups that usually have more important things to do. The most valuable editors often don't bother to sign up, but the useless hat-collectors are always keen to get their names posted in as many groups as possible. There is no benefit of making a list to this group, which welcomes people who know how to organize groups, regardless of whether they want to show up for one comment or one decade. To put it another way, if someone needs to make his mark on the front page to feel like he belongs, he's really not the right kind of person for this group. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:51, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Section break 1

(feel free to add any comments in this section)

I certainly appreciate the desire to remove cobwebs from a Wikipedia function. My concern is that, as with many WikiProjects, projects overhauled by a single editor tend not to be sustained once that editor's interest/time wanes. Currently, despite the lofty name, the WP Council pages have a minimal role in WikiProject operations. They basically serve only to host a WikiProject guide, task force guide, and the project proposals page. Maintaining a current directory of WikiProjects is a goal, but has become an unsustainably large task to do manually (encouragingly, the Reports bot-maintained automatic directory recently sprung back to life after a brief hiatus, and Bamyers99's list updates automatically). If there is interest in expanding the scope of this page (you mention the page having a lot of potential and of a council that serves some purpose), then I think we should discuss what that role would be. My personal feeling is that for the current narrow scope of this page (basically, as you point out, it's not a "council" in any meaningful way. It's more like Wikipeda:WikiProject WikiProjects) the smaller maintenance-requiring overhead we have, the better.

So I'd prefer we minimize or eliminate lists that need regular updating (e.g. current members, most-active projects, current coordinators). If there's a group of editors interested in expanding the scope of this page and forming an actual council that takes a more active role in WikiProjects, that's fine by me and I have no objection to the expansion of infrastructre to support that group; however, I probably wouldn't have the time/interest to meaningfully participate. Ajpolino (talk) 21:51, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ajpolino, I appreciate your reply. just to respond, there is a group of editors, who are wiling to actively update and maintain this page. there absolutely is. that is why we do need an actual list of active participants, right here on this page. we already have some interest in creating such a list, eg from Ipigott, and Bamyers99. thanks. --Sm8900 (talk) 21:55, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think "council" is a legacy name and I highly doubt there is any consensus for there to be an organizing group of the type that the word "council" implies. I disagree with making plans to overhaul this WikiProject along those lines without such a consensus in place first. isaacl (talk) 21:58, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

hm okay. I am open to discussion. one note, I do think the existing consensus, based on existing pages, templates, discussions, etc is that this body that is named "council" is actually what its name implies. I don't know of any other basis for naming an object, other than what it is.

Also, I assume you are not opposed to maintaining and updating this page. if the specific updates are desired to be discussed, that seems doable. --Sm8900 (talk) 22:16, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The actual activity on this talk page belies the idea of a "council" taking on any guiding role in the creation and maintenance of WikiProjects. If you're just trying to make this page into a better resource, I don't have any issues with that, but I do object to trying to bring a council into existence where none actually exists today. I do think you should carefully consider if the changes you introduce are sustainable should your interest wane (as mentioned above). Adding something that needs ongoing maintenance is essentially handing a recurring bill to this WikiProject that someone has to pay.

A few suggestions: rather than making many, many edits to the main page, could you perhaps work on them in a sandbox, and then make an update all at once to the main page? I'm not saying you should only make big bang changes to the main page, as that would probably be disconcerting as well, but minimizing the amount of rework being done live would be helpful. Additionally, could you avoid leaving extraneous blank spaces between list items on this talk page, as this turns into multiple lists which adds extra burden to those using screen readers? (I removed the ones in the immediately preceding comment, as well as changed the list level to indicate that you were replying to my comment, as I believe you were.) Thanks very much. isaacl (talk) 22:30, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

isaacl I think those suggestions are very fair, and very helpful. yes, I'll try to lessen the incremental edits here. that is very fair-minded of you to express in that forthright and constructive manner. thanks!! (and yes, sorry for all the trimming around the edges.) thanks!!

here is a link to a sandbox. I'll try to use it a little more often. thanks. LINK: User:Sm8900/WIkiproject council sandbox --Sm8900 (talk) 22:35, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You've subsequently made these three edits which to me are good candidates for making in a sandbox, letting you examine them and decide if you seem happy with the results, or even ask others for their opinions, and then making a single batch change to the actual live page. If you do want to collaborate with others on these changes ahead of their going live, then I suggest making the sandbox a subpage of the main page. (You also left a blank line between list items in your last edit, which I have removed.) isaacl (talk) 22:47, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In the last hour you've made 37 updates. It really would be helpful if you could batch up your changes, and use edit summaries. Even better, get some feedback before submitting. isaacl (talk) 23:02, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

hm yup, makes sense. sorry, just trimming things a bit. I agree with you though, too many incremental adjustments can start to get a bit excessive. I'm going to take a break pretty soon anyway. but you do make some good points. I'm glad to have your ideas here. thanks. --Sm8900 (talk) 23:08, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

My comments apply to any kind of edits, "trimming", copy editing, re-arranging, or what not. If you can update a common sandbox with batches of changes that have a common theme and ask for feedback, it'll be much easier for other editors to understand what is being done and collaborate. isaacl (talk) 23:14, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

yup, makes sense. I do hear you. will try to keep that in mind. thanks. --Sm8900 (talk) 23:26, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hey guys, some folks are trying to use this page below, to, ya know, I guess propose ideas or something, and try to get feedback. I know, I know, I tried to tell them not to, but you know how these folks can be. lol just kidding!

if you want to help me knock some sense into these intractable folks who insist on actually trying to propose stuff, add your ideas, comments, or input, feel free to join the discussion at the link below. thanks!!! --Sm8900 (talk) 23:04, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's not necessary to replicate the contents of the proposals page; a link to it suffices. isaacl (talk) 23:11, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

well, it may be not necessary; however, I am not trying to replicate anything. I am providing a list of links to active proposals. the fact that the proposals page does so as well, doesn't reduce the value of occasionally providing a small reminder, imho. again, I'm not replicating the content of a page; I am seeking to promote links to active individual pages, some of which might be of relevance to some specific editors here, if they see a list posted visibly of the current items that are currently available to discuss. I do appreciate your input. thanks! --Sm8900 (talk) 23:16, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Again it's important to think long term: is it more important to promote the specific proposals at the moment, versus trying to get comments for all proposals going forward? (Also, Ajpolino already mentioned (and linked to) the proposal page above as one of the active areas; it's not a big revelation.) Given the small audience, it might be worth considering moving all the proposal discussion to this talk page, for instance. isaacl (talk) 23:29, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

List of proposals

• Main page: Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals
• Current proposals
  • January 2020
    • National Science Policy Network
  • December 2019
    • Taekwondo
    • United States of Indonesia
    • Choral Music
    • Malware and Computer Virus Improvement
  • November 2019
    • Smaller Indian cities
  • September 2019
    • H. P. Lovecraft
  • August 2019
  • Technical standards

Changes to the Proposals page itself

@Sm8900: I'm sorry to be a negative voice here. I appreciate your interest in making positive changes. However, on a particular change you've made to the proposals page, I don't see the value. Over a few edits you changed the beginning of the page from old version to new version. Basically you've added a new request that proposers add their signatures (which as far as I can tell has never been requested before) and moved the old introduction to a section called "Instructions". My opinion (for what it's worth) is that having the proposer's signature on that page is not helpful, and I preferred the older version (i.e. I prefer to read a page with fewer sections and fewer words). Am I missing some aspect of this? Opinions from anyone else would also be helpful. Thank you. Ajpolino (talk) 01:13, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Ajpolino:. No problem, your questions seem fair enough. I appreciate your positive and congenial way of phrasing your questions above. based on your remarks, I have restored the previous section breaks, and the other things you refer to above. thanks!! --Sm8900 (talk) 02:04, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We've talked about shutting down the proposals process entirely before, and I'm still slightly inclined in that direction. People don't use it as a resource to find new groups (=its point), and most of what gets proposed shouldn't get started.

Successful WikiProjects – which, in my definition, are a groups that continue to work together for more than a year or two – require the presence of multiple long-time, high-volume editors. The people who are making proposals tend to be relative newbies. I see, from the links here, proposals by editors with 138 edits, 183 edits, 5401 edits, 215 edits, 230 edits (also, he's been blocked by the Checkusers), 4 edits (yup, four), 130K edits, and 4818 edits.

Previous analysis has convinced me that only the groups that involve editors with thousands of prior edits have any chance of surviving, so that means five of these eight proposals are doomed right off. One of the three proposed by relatively experienced editors is, as User:BrownHairedGirl pointed out, a proposal for a WikiProject about fairly narrow subject that has been deleted (so that attempt is probably doomed), and the other two are failing to attract attention. Zero of them have, or are likely to have, the half-dozen solid editors that are needed to sustain a WikiProject. It is so rare that a good proposal is made that I really don't know why we keep that page open. Experienced editors know that it is optional, so they don't need it, and inexperienced editors can't make a viable proposal, so why not shut it down? WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:37, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the ping, @WhatamIdoing. I have similar concerns, but prefer the opposite remedy.

In my view, the main issue here is that most of the existing WikiProjects are flagging. The number tagged as inactive or semi-active is a huge under-estimate; the vast majority are blowing tumbleweed. So what en.wp really needs is a massive consolidation of WikiProjects, rather than any more of them. There may very exceptionally be a good case for a new project, that is extremely rare.

I therefore support anything which might slow or divert the creation of new projects. Ideally, I would like to see the Proposals page becoming a compulsory pre-approval process: any project created without that approval should be speedily-deleted. Sadly, I don't think the community is quite ready for that. In May 2018, WP:WikiProject Parenting was kept at MFD, even though it predictably never got off the ground. In Sept 2019, there was only a weak consnensus to delete the absurdly narrow, pointily-created WP:WikiProject H. P. Lovecraft at its MFD.

However, in the meantime, the proposals page does serve a useful purpose, which is hinted at in WhatamIdoing's observation that inexperienced editors can't make a viable proposal. The gain is that they come here to make their non-viable proposal, where it rots ... and that's much better than having them charge straight into creating a new project. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 08:25, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that currently the proposals page serves mostly as a void for inexperienced editors to shout into and get the message that there's not broad interest in starting a project on their pet topic. Is it worth keeping a page open for that purpose? I'm not sure. It's valuable in that it cuts down on the formation of ill-fated projects (which as BHG points out are hard to delete, and clutter up directories, making it more challenging for editors to find active projects). But it also feels cynical to keep a page open primarily for that purpose. If we decide to keep it, we should consider doing something to make maintaining that page easier. The current system of new pages and templates for each proposal is a pain to manually curate, and easily falls behind when someone isn't actively maintaining it. Ajpolino (talk) 17:03, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ajpolino, we could dump the sub-page system and move (back?) to a post-and-archive approach. That's a "bold move" option for the group.

We could also set firmer rules: No proposals unless three editors have previously discussed it elsewhere and all think that it's a good idea (because "user projects" work better when only two or three are involved). If we expected this to be enforced, would require an RFC to demonstrate site-wide consensus.

BrownHairedGirl, have you ever done any WikiProject merges? They're a bit tedious but generally effective. Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Guide/Task forces#Converting existing projects to task forces has the usual steps (it's pretty much the same process even when you are just redirecting one, instead of making it a task force). Step #1 ("Get consensus") is the step that people complain about the most, and also the most important. In practice, as long as you post ample warning to both affected groups of people, and nobody in the to-be-merged-away group objects, then anyone can merge defunct WikiProjects up to larger subjects. It just takes time and patience. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:41, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Ajpolino, I disagree that there is anything cynical about encouraging editors to test their idea before going live. On the contrary, I think that we could do with a lot more this "discussion first" approach. I reckon that it's particularly appropriate for WikiProjects, where most proposals don't stand up to scrutiny and where WP:BOLDness leads to a huge mess to clean up.

@WhatamIdoing, I haven't tried project merges, but I'd like to see hundreds of them. However, my main concern at this stage is to stop making the problem worse. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:31, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Agree dead process ....lets mark historical.--Moxy 🍁 06:34, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have restored the page. A discussion should take place before the nature of the page is changed. I personally belive the the recent changes that made this a recruitment page rather than a authoritative page and a jumping off point is detrimental and shows bias towards certain projects that we don't want. Original intro should be restored as the majority will not read beyond it. The most important links have now been regulated to subsections.

Why are we recruiting on this page for specific projects... we should be giving the appearance of arbitrators rather than recruiters. Overall not sure about the huge change that seem to ramble on rather than being precise and direct.

Why are we listening people's names did they agree to be listed here.... do they even participate in the council?--Moxy 🍁 03:22, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate your thoughtful note above. A number of people here have commented here on this talk page, about these changes, and on various aspects of these changes that they felt they wished to address or to discuss. so these changes have actually received input from various editors here. thanks. --Sm8900 (talk) 03:51, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I really not seeing much support at all for your changes nor a reply to my concerns. So let's start over....pls address. And best. We should also use a stable version. Thank you.--Moxy 🍁 04:05, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

that version was stable. you are the only person reverting it. --Sm8900 (talk) 04:19, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Pls read over the talks above.....all have raised concerns about different aspects of the changes. Some changes were fine...however finding those is hard because we have no indication of what edit was for what change in a flurry of edits. So step by step....why list people who have not put their name here on purpose ( do they wish to represent the council?) and hightlight projects doing well? ...will talk about walls of text and listing redirects after.--Moxy 🍁 04:32, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

again, that version is stable. discussing details is fine. but there is no basis for reverting to a version that reverses all of the recent edits. I appreciate your note above. thanks. --Sm8900 (talk) 04:58, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Rationale stated above.....trying to move forward. WP:BRDDISCUSS.--Moxy 🍁 05:06, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

reverting edits is moving backward, not forwards. --Sm8900 (talk) 05:07, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There have been about 150 edits made to this group's page in about 26 hours. That is more edits to that page than were made in the entire previous decade. There is absolutely nothing "stable" about the undiscussed and mostly unwanted edits you've been making. An editor with even your experience level should be embarrassed to make such a claim. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:22, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Section break 1

I was asked to weigh in, so here we go.

1. Thanks to Sm8900 for your eager assistance.

2. The old version of the Proposals page was a lot more concise and precise, with the new version, I get where Sm is trying to go, but I don't know if they are exactly improvements persay. SM's version is a lot cleaner, but it was also a bit wordy, and I had to read through it twice to understand it. Overall, I believe that the new structure is better, but the way it is worded leaves something to be desired. So here's my propossl. If we kept the organization, but improved the wording, I think that page would be greatly improved. (Was this even the issue we were talking about? This whole thing is rather unclear to me, I'm not even a member of the Council.) Anyways, thank you to Sm8900 for your enthusiastic efforts, I and even the people who revert you do appreciate your enthusiasm! Thanks, Puddleglum ^2.0 05:10, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We are talking about Wikipedia:WikiProject Council not Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals.--Moxy 🍁 06:33, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Puddleglum2.0:, that sounds fine. so below is a link to a draft version of the entire article as I edited it. could you please go to the talk page for that draft, and add your comments as to what wording you would like to see revised? thanks!!!

• Link to draft version of page: User:Sm8900/council draft

thanks. --Sm8900 (talk) 05:15, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sm8900, I appreciate your commitment to stop edit warring on our WikiProject page, but you're not winning friends and influencing people right now. The message I'd like to hear from you would feel more like "I know WikiProjects are groups of people (not 'resources' or 'pages'), and I know I'm still the new guy in this old group. I have some ideas, but I actually don't know much about this group's history, purpose, or shared goals. Is anyone interested in hearing one of my ideas?"

Also, please go read WP:LISTGAP before you edit anything else. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:16, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

WhatamIdoing, I appreciate your comment. thanks!!! --Sm8900 (talk) 05:17, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Section break 1a

As per @WhatamIdoing:, and others, I know WikiProjects are groups of people (not 'resources' or 'pages'), and I know I'm still the new guy in this old group. I have some ideas, but perhaps I don't know much about this group's history. I feel that I do know a solid amount about the purpose here, and the shared goals, based on my years of experience of editing Wikipedia. Is anyone interested in hearing some of my ideas? I truly appreciate it. thanks. --Sm8900 (talk) 05:30, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You claim to know what the purpose and goals of WikiProject Council are. I have my doubts, but there's an easy way around that: Tell me why we exist. What's the point? Feel free to give a few examples. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:55, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) best read over Wikipedia:Canvassing as well.--Moxy 🍁 05:59, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@WhatamIdoing: ok, fair enough. as the "What do we do?" section currently says explicitly, this page is here to assist editors who might need some help with building a WikiProject, to document some of the successful efforts and practices in current WikiProjects, and to help editors with finding their way to current WikiProjects, i.e. by providing links and a current directory. is that somewhat correct? --Sm8900 (talk) 06:02, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's the version that's designed for public consumption. More bluntly, we stop fights between WikiProjects with overlapping scopes, we are (part of) the institutional memory about the who/what/where to ask when WikiProject infrastructure breaks, and we try to reduce the overall maintenance burden by discouraging people from creating pages when they don't actually have a WikiProject (=a group of people) to use those pages. In our "ample free time", we provide advice to people who come here to ask for it, but providing that information "off campus" in discussions such as this and this and this (all old enough that hopefully nobody will be offended at being 'made an example of') is more important than what we say here. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:44, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

section break 2a, reply to Moxy

• Reply to comment above. I appreciate your thoughtful points above. I will answer each of your valid points in turn, below.

• why would this project recruit here for just a few other projects or any project?

my assumption is that the people visiting this page for guidance will include some neophytes, who are looking for basic elementary information on the whole area of WikiProjects. one way to enable them hit the ground running is to let them know, firstly, that some WikiProjects that appear to be major may be totally inactive, while others are very active indeed.

So to enable them to navigate through the thicket, this Council can help to serve as a central place where links to some actual WikiProjects that are fully active and shaping Wikipedia are full identified here. in addition, providing resources that can help users to distinguish the active WikiProjects from those that are less active or inactive, might be highly useful to some of the newcomers who might visit this page.

• why list non council members when we don’t even have a list (did they agree to this)?

If you're referring to the list of active participants, the answer is, yes; not only did they agree to this, they posted their names themselves; however, since that only applies to two people, you are probably referring to the list of project coordinators.

the reason for providing such a list of project coordinators is that right now, omitting such a list is not causing more activity; on the contrary, because we don't have any specific data on who is actually involved, anyone coming here is not sure who is available or willing to assist them. by the way, I thought they would get pinged when I used the template {{user|user name}} to list them; however, perhaps that did not ping them, so will change the tag for that list.

that is also why I have the section "radio check" above on this talk page; my goal here is to promote discussion and participation. I am not trying to exclude anyone from this process; quite the contrary, I have been trying to attract as much input and activity from others as possible. On that note, I am glad to hear your views, and to have your valuable input here.

If you're referring to the list of WikiProject coordinators, the answer is that is publicly-posted information. anyone coming here for help might benefit from the knowledge that there are experienced project coordinators who occupy a public role, and are therefore available to answer any questions needed.

• why have long convoluted paragraphs just to link to another page?

I’m not sure which paragraphs you mean. You are welcome to specify any passages that you have in mind, and I will be glad to discuss. However, in general, my reason for adding text to point to other resources was under the assumption that neophytes might come here looking for guidance, so therefore we should provide some words of explanation in offering info and resources to them.

• why list redirect ?

because since, supposedly, we are the Council, one valuable function might be to enable other Council participants, and active WikiProject coordinators, editors, etc, to get some historical sense of the overall shape and nature of WikiProject Council in a historical sense. The redirects provide some insights into how this Council project has evolved and developed over the years. The article redirects are not that old; they’re just a year or two old.

So anyone coming here after a long hiatus might wish to get a sense of what was here before, or what we have now. This is especially true because some folks here might have been involved in developing those older pages.

• why does the "What do we do?" section no longer have what we do?

Actually, if you look closely, the revised version of this section contained all of the same links and resources that it did before. I only changed the text, in order to be easier to read for the average visitor to this page. Also, I don't know that we still do any of the things that section says we do. I'm not sure whether WikiProject Council is still carrying out these functions as a council at all. Most of the WikiProject coordinators whom I've spoken to have little awareness or perception of WP Council functioning as a council, or as an active group.

However, in deference to your important concerns, and valid insights, I have restored the text of that section, as you alluded to above.

• why move main links from lead?

I'm not sure which links I moved from the lead. You are welcome to restore them. In general, perhaps some links were moved simply to streamline the article, and make it more accessible to the general reader.

• why the same links in every section?

is that right? I did? I will try to review the material for this aspect. If I really posted the same links in every section, then yes, perhaps that is a bit redundant. I'll be glad to winnow down any links that are repeated in redundant fashion.

• did copy some facts to our info page

you did indeed. I saw your edit. in all seriousness, that's terrific, and very appreciated! That demonstrates your positive approach to this process and to improving Wikipedia. I appreciate your positivity in doing so. This is what Wikipedia is all about. Your willingness to use my ideas in a positive manner, even during our debate here, demonstrates a real sincere desire to improve Wikipedia. I do appreciate your positive gesture in this manner. thanks.

phew, well, that's a lot of typing, but my goal was truly and sincerely to address your valid points above. I have restored the text of the "What do we do?" section, based on your request above. I hope my replies above are helpful. I look forward to hearing more of your views, and discussing further. I appreciate all your insights here. Thanks!! --Sm8900 (talk) 14:53, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

At this point best you ask for an RFC because as of now the project has rejected most of the changes. Pls don't waste our time having to edit war with you. As a participant of the council your supposed to try avoid conflict. I simply see no need to link the same pages in every section or list projects here as we have 2000 of them thus why we have sub pages for them.--Moxy 🍁 17:20, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have been following with interest Sm8900's efforts to make this project more effective. As a result, I have looked into the project's background in some detail and am impressed to see the high number of page views the project's main page constantly receives. This obviously indicates that it has been serving as a useful reference for those interested in embarking on new wikiprojects or perhaps simply wishing to improve those that already exist. I believe one of the reasons Sm felt the project needed to be "revived" was that it is listed as semi-active, a rating apparently based on the number of edits on its talk page. This misleading rating obviously needs attention. I also think it would be useful to enlarge the scope of the project to accommodate more general views and difficulties encountered with wikiprojects. One aspect which could receive attention is the reformatting of the main pages of a number of wikiprojects in line with developments under Project X. Another is the development of more effective coordination and linkage between wikiprojects covering a given area of interest, for example all those relating to women or those to do with history or with science. I hope therefore discussion can continue on constructive developments and that the efforts of Sm and others who have offered assistance will not be completely overruled.--Ipigott (talk) 12:04, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Ipigott: thanks so much for your helpful remarks above. I quite agree. thanks. --Sm8900 (talk) 14:23, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

reply

• Reply to suggestions above.I would like to reply to Ipigott's helpful suggestions above individually , as per the list below.

• I believe one of the reasons Sm felt the project needed to be "revived" was that it is listed as semi-active, a rating apparently based on the number of edits on its talk page. This misleading rating obviously needs attention.

exactly. This WikiProject Council does appears active to some, based its navboxes at many or almost all WikiProjects; however, as you note, it is actually inactive, based on its current designation. Other users may presumably come here, hoping to find this to be an active resource; we should try to do what we can to make it active and useful, based on the input and ideas from everyone here.

• I also think it would be useful to enlarge the scope of the project to accommodate more general views and difficulties encountered with wikiprojects.

One aspect which could receive attention is the reformatting of the main pages of a number of wikiprojects in line with developments under Project X.

I totally agree. One useful aspect of a group labeled "Council" is precisely to hear ideas, proposals, etc, like your idea above, to discuss them here, and then to find ways to get them done, and make them to useful to others, based on input and ideas from everyone here.

In the case of this idea, if we can get some input on your idea for reformatting the pages as per Project X, and get some support and participation for this, then we could look at some ways to make this happen. getting this page up and running as an active resource is a good starting point for this.

• Another is the development of more effective coordination and linkage between wikiprojects covering a given area of interest, for example all those relating to women or those to do with history or with science.

I totally agree. Since we call ourselves a "council," and since in fact that function is explicitly listed as one of our functions, it only makes sense to try to find some methods to promote some greater participation here, and then to work on some ideas to implement your idea above.

In the case of your idea above to group similar WikiProjects and to promote them for people interested in that area, that was one aspect of my providing a list of active WikiProjects in the first place. once take that as a starting point, we can then use that list to group some active WikiProjects by topic, and thus help users to find active WikiProjects in the specific topical areas they might find interesting.

• I hope therefore discussion can continue on constructive developments and that the efforts of Sm and others who have offered assistance will not be completely overruled.

I do agree with you on that, of course. My goal is to provide some useful edits here, and to open them up for discussion, in order to continuously seek ways that others here might like to offer ideas, get their proposals accepted and implemented, or find ways to make this great council into the great active resource that it has always been anticipated to be.

I would like to move ahead with these ideas, and also to continue discussion here, to continue to get some ideas and input on ways to make this better. I appreciate your input and ideas on this.

Well, those are all my thoughts on your great ideas above. I hope that's helpful. I really appreciate your great ideas on that.

Please feel free to reply further, to comment further on the above, or to offer any other ideas, comments, etc, that you may have. Thanks!!! --Sm8900 (talk) 15:29, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Just for clarification: my reference to Project X above was because after many key members of that project left, Women in Red together with many other wikiprojects began to experience difficulties. It would have been useful, perhaps, if we had been able to pool our concerns and take a common stand on maintaining the most useful aspects of the Project X approach while abandoning others. It looks to me as if WP Council could have been the right place to discuss these difficulties but we never went further than Project X itself.--Ipigott (talk) 16:04, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure what is being said above ....when was this project marked semi-active? We do maintain a list of projects in groupings. Perhaps best to participate in the project for some time before suggesting changes. It's great you guys are trying to promote other projects but this is not the place for recruitment of individual projects.....as we cover all of them.--Moxy 🍁 16:55, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is from the mix-up about the Quarry query. It counts how many times a WikiProject's pages (the group's main page, talk page, any subpages) are edited. So if you post a message on your group's talk page like "Let's go fix up Article", and then your group makes a thousand edits to that article, then you're "inactive" and bad. But if you spend a lot of time bickering in the group's talk page, or shuffling around the list of participants, or making lists of articles that you might like to write some day, and never actually improve a single article, then that's "active" and good.

It's a Map–territory relation problem. The metric rewards edit volume in the projectspace, so let's have a high volume here! It is better to do the thing that matters, and find a different metric – one that measures what matters. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:59, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The Wikipedia:WikiProject Directory shows activity in pages tagged as being associated with a WikiProject. It's not a great metric for a meta-WikiProject such as this one, but a reasonably good indicator of activity in a topic area for projects related to mainspace content. isaacl (talk) 20:10, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That counts all edits by anyone, though. "WikiProject WhatamIdoing" could pick out a hundred high-traffic pages, stop editing entirely, and still look like an active project under that metric. I've thought about WikiProject metrics before. So far, I haven't thought of any great ones. A time-to-response metric (which we don't have, and which isn't very easy in MediaWiki) might be my best idea. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:14, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

OK this is out of hand.....stop reverting until people agree to changes. Not a good start to someone who is planing to coordinate any Wiki project.--Moxy 🍁 17:11, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

with respect, your edit was the one that made the revert. I am simply trying to restore the article to its current version, which, includes edits and items made by other editors, not just by myself or my own edits. i.e., your most recent revert removed edits by other individuals that were made today, not just by me; specifically, there were edits today by Izno.

with that said, I am totally willing and glad to discuss your important points about the various aspects of this article. --Sm8900 (talk) 17:22, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Just a note to say that I prefer the old version of the page (though I agree with Sm8900 that the decorative section headers should go, with the exception of the first header). It seems several people who have chimed in above (myself included) are resistant to a piecemeal re-envisioning of this page. I'd echo the advice of others above that if you'd like to boldly re-envision this page, do your piecemeal edits in a sandbox then bring a clear proposal here that we replace the current version with your version. It's clear you're driven by good intentions, but your style of rapid-fire changes makes it hard for myself (and I assume others) to follow, and seems to be rubbing some editors the wrong way. Also this discussion has become incredibly hard to follow. If we could cut down on the new section headers and arbitrary section breaks, I think that might help. Alternatively, if there are specific changes you'd like to discuss, I'd be happy to do that in distinct sections. Happy editing all around. Ajpolino (talk) 17:26, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ajpolino, I appreciate your positive note. as you note, some parts of the old article might be fine, but some of the recent edits did serve a useful purpose for various people here. I appreciate your specificity above about your requests. I have a draft page at my user page now, that I've been using to make edits. based on your comments above, I will try to make all the edits you requested, at my draft page, and then will ping you at that draft page for comment. thanks. --Sm8900 (talk) 17:34, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

To increase the sense of collaboration, I strongly suggest to use a sandbox that is a subpage of the WikiProject Council page, rather than a subpage below your user page. isaacl (talk) 17:41, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly urge you to slow down and take into account the advice I have given. Please don't edit the live page any more and instead work on a sandbox that is a subpage of the WikiProject Council page. Working out an agreed upon version is the best way to collaborate, rather than flipflopping the live page between different versions. What someone else does isn't under your scope of control, but you can choose to pursue an approach of gaining agreement on new changes. isaacl (talk) 17:39, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Isaacl:, I agree completely. I will do so completely at once. I have a draft copy set up now at my user page, that I have been using. I will ping you there, if I make any further changes, before revising this page further.

your points above are highly valid. I agree with you, and will proceed the way you request above. I appreciate your help. --Sm8900 (talk) 17:51, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In order to foster greater collaboration, I strongly suggest you move your draft page to be a subpage of the WikiProject Council page, and to post any requests for feedback on this talk page. Also, can you please stop leaving blank lines between your paragraphs that are prefixed with colons, number signs, or semi-colons, assuming you are using the wikitext editor? This causes additional overhead for those using screen readers. isaacl (talk) 18:09, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

OK let's rstore the page to its decade long version and see what edits are valid to save. We may have to wait as Sm8900 is blocked. I have several problems with the new version...main links removed from the lead...links repeated in every section...listing of non members...listing any project giving the impression of biased in favour of a project on our part.... rewording of the what we do section... listing all the redirects to this page.... basically I objected to changing of the page as being authoritative to recruitment.--Moxy 🍁 18:21, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

hi everyone. okay, I am back now. I truly appreciate the insights and input of everyone involved. yes, i was blocked, but it was reversed by some highly patient admins,once I explained the underlying context, as well as my own prior sincere understandings of this. I also let them know that I unequivocally apologize for over-stepping 3RR in any way. I appreciate the admins who wrote to me, and who took the time to let me know of some highly-useful ways to deal with any such situations in the future. they also gave me links to some of very valuable and and helpful guidelines that provide help with handling such processes here at Wikipedia. I would like to thank everyone here for their input and insights. I would also like to thank Moxy for their thoughtful and interesting comments above, here on this talk page; as I already said, prior to all of this, I do truly appreciate the valid points that Moxy took the time and effort to make, here on this talk page; I have never said otherwise about our discussions here. In addition, Moxy was open-minded enough to let me know that they found some of my edits useful, and had added them elsewhere; as I told Moxy above, I truly appreciate this positive gesture on their part, and see that as an illustration of their sincere desire to improve Wikipedia.

again, I genuinely appreciate the input and insights of everyone here. thanks so much! looking forward to future positive interactions. thanks. --Sm8900 (talk) 19:54, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

by the way, the prior version has now been reverted back to, by an entirely different editor. I don't agree with the revert, obviously; but I will stick to the talk page for now for any thoughts I may have. as I said, I feel there was some support for some of these changes, while others do need further discussion. I do appreciate the insights here at this talk page. thanks. --Sm8900 (talk) 20:04, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

14+ years with Wikipedia & I didn't know (until today) that this WikiProject existed. GoodDay (talk) 18:29, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Would love an editor of your calibre to join us. Welcome to the project.--Moxy 🍁 18:47, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Whoever's adding section breaks here (and at related ANI report)? please stop doing that. It's being done too frequently & should only be applied if a discussion becomes extremely too long. GoodDay (talk) 20:09, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn't aware of this project either until Sm8900 posted a message on the Women in Red talk page a couple of days ago. When I responded, I was hoping to be able to collaborate constructively but unfortunately I have not yet been able to detect any progress. I must say I also sympathize with Sm. I had never had occasion to read the pages cited about reverting and blocking either but then I don't think I have ever had any serious conflicts on Wikipedia and have never "reverted" anything. I have always found the most reasonable way to have things changed back to where they were is to provide explanations on the talk page of the article in question and/or on the talk page of the editor who made what appeared to be an unreasonable change. In almost all cases, this has worked very smoothly. It's a pity the same approach could not be adopted here.--Ipigott (talk) 21:14, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

thanks, Ipigott. I appreciate your helpful comment above. I quite agree. thanks. --Sm8900 (talk) 22:46, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Well this has been a bit of a mess. For anyone who tuned out as this discussion got spread over several sections, I believe here's where we're at: This page has been restored to how it was a month ago. Sm8900 would like to propose revitalizing this page, possibly(?) expanding its role. They're drafting a sandbox proposal to replace this page here. If you have comments on that, I'm sure Sm would love help. At some point, that sandbox draft will be brought up here for discussion. During the discussion above, a few editors commented on the proposals page as well, suggesting we find a way to streamline it or abandon it completely. We can continue that discussion here or a few sections above. If folks could stop making new sections and sub-sections unless they have a new topic they wish to discuss, I would be much obliged. Fragmented discussion is challenging for a slow-poke like me to follow. Thanks all for your comments. I'm hopeful that this is the start of a quieter phase of productive discussion. Happy editing! Ajpolino (talk) 21:03, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

from Ajpolino's comment above: "I'm sure Sm would love help." yup. that is well said. I appreciate, admire and agree with Ajpolino's well-written comment above. I appreciate your input and insights on this. thanks!! And yes, I can set up a sandbox draft, for comment by anyone interested. I appreciate everyone's help on this. thanks. --Sm8900 (talk) 22:14, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think more experience is needed before you jump in and change a project that you just found. There is a lack of the basics that is needed in changing and coordinating a Wiki project. It's great you want to help....but a vast knolage of our basuc protocols is essential if you want to help with rewriting or leading a project. Best give it some time then come back when knolage of our goals and protocols are understood.--Moxy 🍁 22:35, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I do hear your point. However, I would disagree somewhat. I think that changes here are open to discussion by all, can be proposed by anyone with knowledge of Wikipedia, and are open to discussion based on the needs of Wikipedia, and what the community of editors here feel would be most helpful to all of them. with that said, I am glad to let discussion here proceed and develop. thanks.--Sm8900 (talk) 22:45, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

At this point the disruption to the project has been substantial and has resulted in a back lash to your proposal and resulted in you being blocked. Best give it some time as project members are a little perturbed right now thus it might be hard to convince anyone. You must be aware that it's always going to be hard to jump in to a project and change its purpose.--Moxy 🍁 22:55, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose you would like a continuous discussion of this to go on ad inifinitum, where we can continue our byplay. to do so, you would need a response from me. ok, here it is: I appreciate your great comments at the proposed draft that I posted. your comments were useful, on-point and very insightful and helpful. this is what Wikipedia is all about. the ability to get insights and input from experienced editors like yourself is what allows this encyclopedia to grow, to flourish, and to develop here. I appreciate all your work and effort here. thanks.

okay, there. I lobbed one right back at ya. your serve. cheers!!! --Sm8900 (talk) 23:02, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"I think that changes here are open to discussion by all..." Not really. This isn't about "the page". It's about "the group". There are important humans-work-this-way social dynamics involved. Newbies don't get to tell the long-standing members of *any* social group how they ought to be running the group. I don't want you to imagine that you're proposing a change to a wiki page. I want you to imagine that you've found a group of people who have been hanging out over coffee every morning for years and years. They look like they're doing nothing. Would you sit down in the middle of that group and just announce to them that their group's composition, purpose, and self-description needs to be changed right now? WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:59, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

this is not a social group. this is wikipedia. everything here is subject to review and discussion by others. but yes, anyone can come to an existing article and propose changes. which is actually the actual scenario that you are describing. --Sm8900 (talk) 03:46, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Section break

I see another edit that has again removed all the main sub pages from the lead. .. like our guideline and frequently Asked question page.....as mentioned above this is contentious edit. We like having our FAQ and guidline linked in in the lead as most will not read more then the lead.--Moxy 🍁 23:54, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The current version is the version from December 14, 2019, a month before any subsequent changes. isaacl (talk) 00:00, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Correct one edit before big changes. ...but it's a point brought up here above a few times. Why would we delegate our FAQ page to s sub section way down the page? If it had been in place perhaps all this would not have happens....as other would have seen what us covers.--Moxy 🍁 00:08, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, you've mentioned it, and as far as I can tell, you made the change on January 15. With the discussion starting from scratch, though, it's probably better not to leave specific cherry-picked changes in place. isaacl (talk) 00:15, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

When one makes sudden changes (such as at this WikiProject) to any area on Wikipedia, which has a lot of interested parties? It's best that one propose those changes on the talkpage & see if it's accepted. Otherwise, one risks peeving a lot of editors, with the results being poor for the proposer. GoodDay (talk) 00:19, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We link and metion the directory in ever sub section.... we just keep repeating ourselves. Having our main links in the lead will assist people in understanding the project.--Moxy 🍁 00:37, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I made the December 13th edit with the intention of clarifying what the WP Council actually does (this was the previous version which didn't reflect the reality of what happens here), replacing links to obsolete tools, and making the page more clear to navigate. The link to the 2013 Signpost Article that offers WikiProject FAQs isn't really about the WP Council pages, it's about WikiProjects generally. So I moved the link from the opening paragraph to a section called "More on WikiProjects". I'm not convinced that having the FAQ in the intro would've prevented this flurry of activity. The WikiProject guide and task force guide are the second and third links on the page, so I don't think they're buried too far to find. If folks prefer the old version, this would be a good place to say so and we could go back. Cheers. Ajpolino (talk) 00:41, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I was thinking if they had seen the FAQ page they would have realized that project activity was already cover at that page. Think that because the link we not in lead cause them to think it was not already covered.....or the fact we assist projects not recruit for just a few projects....as we are a project ourselves looking for participation. Now that it's way down the page it seems that it's being missed.--Moxy 🍁 00:53, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm less concerned about the "recruiting for a few projects" thing (it's not good, but it's not my topmost worry) and more concerned about promoting the "coordinators" model, because it's wildly inappropriate for most WikiProjects and unnecessary for others. It makes me think of the O'Rourke quotation in Wiktionary. Status and leadership are not the same thing. WikiProjects need more leaders and fewer people with titles. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:09, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Participants

I know the project says "there is no list of participants, just watch the talk page," and that's cool and all (and it looks lilke it goes back >10 years), but I think the recent issues are strong evidence that is a bad idea (especially since the current version of an archived talk page gives a pretty narrow view of any project: in our case we also now have 27 archived pages to go back and look at to get a complete view). Two (of many) values of listing WikiProject participants are: 1) increasing the social aspect of participation: when you see a fellow participant elsewhere on WikiPedia, you think "cool, they work on the WikiProject council with me too."; and 2) showing how active the project is: if a bunch of very active editors are on the participants list (as would definitely be the case here), it gives the project extra weight (and may give someone pause before they BOLDly make undiscussed changes). Accordingly, I propose we restart a participants page for this project. Thoughts? UnitedStatesian (talk) 03:23, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Seems logical. ..I would put my name. Would also be good that others see that most here have been editing for over a decade --Moxy 🍁 04:01, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]