User:Asilah1981 with consistent erratic, irregular behaviour on summary lines and personal attacks, especially on sensitive Spanish articles related to national matters, like Basque Country related, or Gibraltar, and Spanish history, where he adds emotional, inflammatory comments in accusatory ways. After being blocked two weeks ago [1] in Gibraltar for personal attacks, he came back to a sensitive article to continue with his pursuit inviting another Spanish regular editor with like views and a very short record in the EN WP to come to the article [2]. After insisting in adding comments skipping community input,[3] and having his own way again with an irregular false summary line [4][5], [6] (WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT). He is sometimes accompanied by ghostly editors. [7]

The last straw, he comes back to his old habits, with a straight libel and misrepresention of mine [8]. This comes from a long history previously, of intimidation by using very sensitive vocabulary to do so (see below), citing victims of ETA of which I have said nothing (they have all my respect for their suffering) but arrogating for himself some kind of representation, sometimes using the Spanish language. The editor seemed mildly to mend his way after he was warned in an ANI for his confrontational way months ago, but is not subsiding, set in his ways, see history here with a variety attacks and libels to discourage me from editing [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14], [15]. After two years of account, a clear case of recurrent and continuous litigating ways, and confrontational, toxic editing. Iñaki LL (talk) 19:01, 23 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I have a few comments here.

First, I am involved in the Gibraltar dispute, but not in the Basque or Catalan ones. I am not a disinterested party.

I note that multiple editors, including both Asilah and Iñaki, have broken 3RR at Basque conflict over the past few days. I note that this is a clear WP:CANVASS violation, that the canvassing should be taken into account when determining consensus on that page.

Asilah was blocked on 9 December for one week following this discussion, in particular the issue was his repeated accusations of racism. He has since removed all mention of his block from his talk page (which he is, of course, allowed to do), but it may be instructive to look at it here. He is now accusing people of being terrorist apologists. I suggest that this is repeating the behaviour that saw him blocked two weeks ago and that escalating blocks are now appropriate.

Second, I have had my suspicions of sockpuppetry from this editor, but nothing concrete enough to bring it to WP:SPI. But this from this editor is frankly taking the piss. Suggest we should also be dealing with both per WP:QUACK. Kahastok talk 21:43, 23 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Iñaki LL Addressing you specifically: you accuse me of Personal Attacks. Look, when you are deleting sources from an article written by Basque intellectuals who are outspoken against ETA violence as "dubious" and only accepting sources from ETA´s ecosystem, then yes, you are editing in a way which is pushing the pro-ETA narrative and POV on the article. This is not a personal attack, it is an opinion regarding the nature of your edits which I am free to express. It is indeed an emotional topic, particularly to those of us who have lost loved ones to terrorism. But I have (recently at least) showed restraint and have focused on Wikipedia policy. We both violated the 3RR rule, but there has been no recent Personal Attack against your persona. I did go over the top last march, I concede. Nothing over the past couple of days merits me being discussing this on ANI.Asilah1981 (talk) 22:21, 23 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding Sockpuppetry, this is the third time I am accused of Sockpuppetry by this editor, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Carlstak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Pablo.alonso Perhaps my "sockpuppets" User:Carlstak, User:Pablo.alonso, User:Sidihmed, User:Johnbod and User:asqueladd have something to say?Asilah1981 (talk) 22:31, 23 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Iñaki LL Also one last thing. You are Spanish, so I have addressed you a couple of times in Spanish. I speak it to a near-native level but I am not a Spanish citizen. So it would be wrong to say "I invited another Spanish editor to do so and so". Spanish editors involved in this dispute are just you and User:asqueladd . I happen to be Moroccan in heritage as you should have worked out from my user name and my earliest edits on Wikipedia. My ethno-religious background may also explain my sensitivity to perceived apology of terrorist groups (in general).Asilah1981 (talk) 22:43, 23 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As I have been summoned... I have some things to put in here:

1. With due respect, I am not exactly a user with a "very short" record in EN WP.
2. Neither Iñaki LL nor Kahastok know "my views" as I haven't ever disclosed my views here.
3. Have I been formally accused of being a sockpuppet?

--Asqueladd (talk) 22:55, 23 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Just to make a few points, maybe this isn't the case in Spanish (and some of the diffs are, so I can't really comment on those), but in English, Libel is a legal term, and accusing someone of making libelous accusations may very well be construed as a legal threat. That's likely not the intention, but it's a good idea to avoid it. The same goes for accusing someone of defamation, which is also a term of legal consequence in English.

When it comes to calling something terrorism there is actually official guidance on that, and a redirect from WP:TERRORIST to guide you there. Furthermore, accusing someone of sock puppetry, especially repeatedly and without evidence, may be construed as a personal attack in its own right.

So given that no one involved appears to be 100% on their best behavior, has anyone actually tried any of the steps in the dispute resolution process? TimothyJosephWood 23:04, 23 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Re: Asilah1981, yes, accusing someone of pushing an agenda is absolutely a personal attack, and a consummate failure to assume good faith. TimothyJosephWood 23:15, 23 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Re User:Asilah1981. This is just adding to your personal attacks to the conscience of others. For a start, I should ask you not call me Spanish, since I am not, except for administrative purposes. You had that horrible experience no one deserves and others have been tortured by the state's forces, etc. Now that does not give you more reason, if you are unable to edit in the WP because you cannot refrain, have your own blog. I make also a very big effort to edit in these circumstances.

I came here for suffering frequent personal attacks from the editor in question, but I could have posted equally for Sockpuppeting or Disruptive editing to be honest. The editor in question every time I bring up his irregular editing cites those two cases, which indeed are frustrating. The first one was a technicality, since I was not familiar with the resource, posted also another report failed for another technicality (oldest account...), and the third, User:Pablo.alonso, a sleeper/dormant account, I used the Checkuser and told that was not the case (IP alteration devices? There are), I do not think the administrator went through WP:DUCK. Evidence is extensive per WP:DUCK: topics, kind of language, timing, outlook/viewpoint, spellings, aggressive attitude but accommodating. I do not know who 83.213.205.100 is. However, this post seems to be only about only one kind of irregularity.

The 3RR, well I did indeed, Asilah1981 always pushes the limits and the patience, I just restored it to the regular version, since the editor did not respond to any input whatsoever, a complete WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT and WP:JDLI) with self-entitled edit summaries contradicted by the very content (check reference) [16], [17] and altering the sources [18], it was a circus... Iñaki LL (talk) 00:02, 24 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User:Timothy Well, I did add evidence in the cases cited above. Iñaki LL (talk) 00:02, 24 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I went through the diffs in your original post again, and I may have missed something since I'm holding a fussy baby, but, where...exactly...did anyone do anything in the dispute resolution process? I'm afraid, with my handicap, you may have to point to specifics. TimothyJosephWood 00:14, 24 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

To be clear, by dispute resolution process, I mean things like requesting a third opinion, input from related WikiProjects, opening requests for comments, and appeal to the dispute resolution noticeboard, not simply continuing a dispute on the article talk. TimothyJosephWood 00:24, 24 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Well, yes it could have been so had it been a very specific case, and your links are appreciated, and that may have been the most correct way altogether, but it was a full range of straightforward violations of WP policies (concerted with the other User:Asqueladd) and, above all, just including another personal attack, which bears witness to a way of operating in the WP for a long time, disruptive and daunting, see diffs above. As it happens, on a previous section, just above the latest ones, we find also this malicious comment [19], also discouraging User:Adam Cli from creating and editing the article Talk:Basque National Liberation Movement Prisoners with all kinds of personal and legal intimidations, see ANI [20] and here [21], basically do it my way of you will suffer the consequences ("piss him off"), some school memories?). Of course the newbie hardly comes back to the article now. The record is too long to overlook. Iñaki LL (talk) 11:09, 24 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Iñaki LL Yeah, not just intimidation, "psychological torture". I must be an agent of the State abusing your human rights - online waterboarding. Btw, considering a majority of Basques feel Spanish (and many have been murdered for expressing their feelings)... considering the Basques are pretty much the founders of the modern Spanish state, the drivers of the Reconquista and subsequent Inquisition, as well as being by far the most important architects of the Spanish empire... considering they have been the most privileged region of Spain for centuries, since being granted, in the 16th century, "hidalguia universal" (race-based universal nobility) due to their supposedly pure untainted "Spanishness" to currently having a privileged tax status while simultaneously being the wealthiest part of Spain... Considering Spain´s financial sector is largely run from the Basque Country and the Basque region has received the most investment per capita under every pre-democratic regime in the last 300 years... then forgive me if I continue to consider you VERY MUCH Spanish. If you were from some other region of Spain (probably much further south), I might have been able to accommodate for your self-perception as an oppressed minority. I hope you do not consider that a Personal Attack.Asilah1981 (talk) 12:15, 24 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Well, this is the category of the editor I am talking about, a POV rant with self-entitled monopoly on ideas in a imposition tone, a total inability to engage in constructive and collaborative editing. Have your own blog! I added above the evidence for consideration, self-explanatory, I expect protection to edit in a collaborative and safe environment, so nothing more to say. Iñaki LL (talk) 15:05, 24 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

But you've hardly helped matters, have you? You got to 5RR in the 24 hours from 9am UTC on 22 December and only stopped when people stopped reverting you. That's a block straight off in principle per WP:3RR. You have gone beyond the bounds of WP:NPA and WP:AGF at times, have used anti-vandalism tools for content reverts and have altered Asilah's talk page posts without permission (in future, get permission or ask an uninvolved admin for help).

Don't get me wrong, I stand by what I said at the beginning. Asilah came back from his block and straight off repeated the behaviour that got him blocked. And that revert is still WP:QUACKing at me. But there are certainly areas where your behaviour could use some improvement. Both of you need to discuss this more calmly and dispassionately, and use WP:DR tools as needed if you can't reach consensus on your own. Kahastok talk 15:26, 24 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think the talk page talk of Iñaki and his use of the reversion tools were far from acceptable. Blatantly violating WP:AGF and WP:NPA (calling me "envoy" [22]and "campaigner"[23] and claiming I have intervened in a "concerted" way[24] and telling me to go back where I came from[25]), and dismissing an academic source as dubious[26] just because WP:IJDLI, acting like he owns POV. I concur, as both have kind of admitted[27][28], Iñaki and Asilah are under severe emotional stress regarding the topic of the Basque Conflict. Additionally to not having disclosed "my views" around here, I don't recall having disclosed my citizenship either. Merry Christmas to everyone.--Asqueladd (talk) 17:07, 24 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Being under "severe emotional stress" in a topic area is not considered an excuse for poor behaviour on Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not therapy; if you are not able to edit an article without severe emotional stress, may I suggest that it might be better not to edit it at all?

You single out Iñaki's use of "campaigner". Do you condemn Asilah when he makes exactly the same allegation against others? Kahastok talk 17:28, 24 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I have singled nobody as "campaigner" regarding the Basque Country yet. Iñaki did[29] single me out as campaigner.Sorry, wrong reading.I would be moderately offended too if Asilah1981 self-righteously revert my edits (addition of content based in state of the art input in the basque conflict) per WP:BATTLEGROUND and as the act of a "campaigner" (taking into account its placement in the article may can indeed be discussed based on WP:LEAD in the talk page), yes, if that is what you ask.--Asqueladd (talk) 17:50, 24 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Asilah has routinely been calling people not just campaigners and activists, but terrorist apologists and racists (the latter as per the last ANI), for quite a long time now. This, for example, goes far beyond a single use of the word "campaigner". This is a clear accusation that another editor is an ETA apologist. Do you condemn those personal attacks, as you condemn Iñaki's use of the word "campaigner"? I'm not defending Iñaki, but he is not the bigger problem here. Kahastok talk 18:11, 24 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Asilah's contributions to that page have long been problematic. Accusing editors he disagrees with of being "being ETA sympathisers" for example or suggesting bad faith. It is a controversial topic and he needs to tone it down. Besides the canvass issue noted above, this diff looks very much like quacking. However, he hasn't been the only offender. Some of Iñaki LL's contributions to the talk page are unhelpful, for example accusing editors you disagree with of "verbal incontinence" and telling them to "go back to where they came from, the ES:WP" are also hardly likely to create an editing atmosphere which will enable us to overcome disagreements. I'm willing to work on that page to reach an acceptable version, but as I've said before there's too much commenting on other editors' supposed motives, which achieves nothing productive. After the holidays, we can get input from related Wikiprojects like Spain, Basque, Military History, Terrorism, Politics etc, but until then we need to stay focused on the content, not contributors. Valenciano (talk) 22:37, 24 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Valenciano, you were yourself attacked by the editor in question Asilah1981. With re "verbal incontinence", it is an informal representation of breach of WP:ETIQUETTE and WP:CIVILITY, is that so bad really? Furthermore, "What the fuck" is even a censored word in English speaking media, nothing to comment about that? For the rest, your attitude and input is appreciated. Iñaki LL (talk) 11:03, 25 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Valenciano Agreed.Asilah1981 (talk) 01:15, 25 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Re Asqueladd I should apologize for what my inexact comment on the history length of Asqueladd due to an oversight, he has done not many but significant edits in the EN WP, many of them related to national matters (Catalonia, Basque Country, etc.) [30]. I do not understand your answer to Kahastok, just be clear if you want to reply to the question. Secondly, you may have made a point, the use of campaigner is not right, but you just tell me what this is about [31] if not a call to continue with "the cause". The other comments are just noise, still you did not read. Again, per my own conscience I said that [32] and then I said this to make clear my position [33], still you keep coming back to me with the same thing as if you wanted to escalate. "State-of-the-art" is your own opinion. POV owning has nothing to do with what I did, just the opposite, I am defending from a ideological monopoly stated above by Asilah1981 of what an official truth must be, instead perhaps it is POV owning and apparent animosity citing in the lede of the article certain authors that need to be ostracized without going to details of such reasoning.

You kept reverting [34][35] even when User:Valenciano had just pointed the problems with Asilah1981's intervention [36][37], reminded and reverted straight by me later (diff cited above) per WP:BATTLEGROUND, WP:LEAD and WP:UNDUE (yes I rushed to reverting finally in my own detriment but the sequence of irregular editing was all too evident) seeing that your intent was not to contribute smoothly and total disregard to the input added in the edit summaries before, just after Asilah1981 left the message in your page [38]. For the rest... more and more noise. Please do not compare me with Asilah1981's serious attitude problem (check each ones history), I will remind I am not telling anyone what a content must be of their contribution or conditioning their edition, otherwise calling me unacceptable abuse per WP:LABEL plus intimidating me with ultra-sensitive (legal) vocabulary that is having consequences on the Internet in Spain, affecting selectively only people who show opinions different to positions officially held by the Sp Govt.

Re @Kahastok:, thanks for your input, yes I did add this [[39], but it is on the article's talk page and removed as provisioned by WP rules WP:RPA, not on Asilah1981's talk page. "Campaigner" was probably not the good word to use, but this is just a detail in comparison to the rest of evidence affecting Asilah1981, starting from one of his main problems, misrepresenting the sources I added above on the NYT article (and insisting on it!, even in the face of direct text evidence on the contrary). It is not the first time I identify manipulation of the sources also in other topics (for which I can add evidence here if requested) and I consider it a clear confrontation with the WP community and altogether a very damaging factor to the WP since it erodes trust on WP. Iñaki LL (talk) 10:40, 25 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

1) Really, Iñaki, what part of a) I have been openly asked about my opinion on a topic which I don't recall having edited before in my talk page. b) I openly give my take on the controversy in the talk page of the user who asked about it, including my disapproval of using letters-to-the-editor as source anywhere. c) I identify reliable sources on the matter. d) I edit the article adding content based on quality sources (I call monographical scientific works specifically on the topic published in 2016 having received good reviews in academic journals being indeed called by them an "advance in the understanding of the topic" "state of the art"), get reverted on the basis of being a "campaigner" and "battlegrounding" (we can work in the WP:LEAD part, and I was engaging in positive discussion with Valenciano before you stormed in there ranting about Asilah, about the "official version that should be quarantined" and whatnot, just before of telling me to go back where I come from, proving you just don't like what the source says and that both you and Asilah need to let it go). e) I manifest my surprise to the recent developments in the talk page of that user (not yours) with a "what the fuck has just happened". you think it is that reprobable put into context that you need to be fickle on my doings in the administrator's noticeboard?

2) Kept reverting? I only undid you one time. Not 2. Don't make false claims to blame shift your violation of 3RR in that page.

3) Although you have self-righteously conceded "you may use that source", you have still not provided any valid rationale about why it is a dubious source and should be put "in quarantine" [sic] other than your refractary dismissal of sources as "the official version" from the "Sp Gvt" per you "own experience" [sic] Surprising, given you have self-righteously (again) proclaimed no user is "deciding absolutely anything on POV".--Asqueladd (talk) 09:32, 26 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Bla-bla-bla, I can hear your music, not your lyrics. The history is there for anyone to see, so in your favour or mine anyone can see it. Good night Iñaki LL (talk) 00:41, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Refractary indeed. Your honour, I rest my case.--Asqueladd (talk) 13:46, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• We all better watch out. Asilah'sSomeone masquerading as Asila is trained in gorilla warfare [40]. I didn't know the Navy Seals take illiterates. EEng 06:09, 24 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I have only read the surface of this discussion but as I have been mentioned I have something to add. This post seems to follow on long and lasting disagreements between Asilah1981 (talk) and Iñaki LL (talk). Whatever is the quarrel I am not interested about, but in defense of Asilah1981 I have to point out that editor Iñaki LL (talk) has a long term history of launching sockpuppeting investigations based on fake facts and unsupported speculations on anyone who dares to disagree with him. Not only that, but in my case he even created an anonymous account to add modifications in a page that was subject of controversy and tried to make them pass as if they were made by me, trying to give further fuel to his quarreling. Pablo Alonso (talk) 17:47, 25 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Pablo.alonso: I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but your personal edit warring and WP:GRUDGE against Iñaki LL are irrelevant to a thread about two constructive, experienced editors at loggerheads with each other. The are a lot of socks traipsing around Wikipedia, and it does not reflect badly on an editor for reporting them. A lot of us don't bother out of laziness and chose to waiting around until they get themselves blocked again for the same behaviour that got 'em blocked in the first place, or for them to give up. Every editor handles things their own way. I'm not particularly impressed with how you've handled yourself with the few edits you've made, but I'm not about to step into a thread about you and use it to create a demon of you. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:01, 25 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Iryna Harpy: I stepped into this thread because I was explicitly mentioned, otherwise I won´t bother. But I see editor Iñaki LL (talk) repeating the same abusive and threatening behaviours that he is keen to use and that a lot of people seems to let him get away with. Editors are free to report socks, but a different story is to make up sockpuppetting cases against anyone that dares to disagree with you as a tool for harassment, and on top of it fabricate evidences. And my personal edit warring with Iñaki LL is relevant as long as it was him who dragged me into this mud with Asilah1981 in the first place. Pablo Alonso (talk) 23:57, 25 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Yryna Harpy for your comment. A quick look to the history of Pablo.alonso is revealing enough, so I am not elaborating. Plus I do not think I did any of the coarse accusations this username states in his talk page. Sure he is entitled to blank pieces of his talk page, but alter the thread and misrepresent me? (Including violation of WP:AGF) Iñaki LL (talk) 00:11, 26 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Iñaki LL: You are equally entitled to blank pieces of your talk page, as you did deleting my entries. On the other hand, what is exactly the thread you say it was altered? I quick look to your history of quarreling with a long list of editors is revealing enough, so no need to elaborate. It is already the time for you to stop behaving like a bully and like the sheriff of Wikipedia, you don´t own this site. Pablo Alonso (talk) 00:18, 26 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Pablo.alonso: Actually, Pablo Alonso, it was not Iñaki LL who pinged you, it was Asilah1981 who did so... as well as many other 'editors' as he could muster (all of whom quack). Unfortunately, it's another display of WP:CANVASS by Asilah1981 as being part of his regular behavioural pattern. It's a shame because, in general, I've had a reasonable working relationship with him despite his gruffness. Personally, I'm not concerned as to whether you're sock, fish, or WP:MEAT: all of these accounts smack of being NQR, including yours. Strange that you appear to be lucid in English in edit summaries, yet you suddenly write as if you struggle with English. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:28, 26 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Iryna Harpy: Just to enlighten me, may you point out to me in which part am I struggling with English? Could you please explain why now my English is of relevance in this matter? Pablo Alonso (talk) 00:32, 26 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Iryna Harpy: And by the way, it was indeed Iñaki LL who dragged me into this mud, read above: "and the third, User:Pablo.alonso, a sleeper/dormant account, I used the Checkuser and told that was not the case (IP alteration devices? There are), I do not think the administrator went through WP:DUCK. Evidence is extensive per WP:DUCK: topics, kind of language, timing, outlook/viewpoint, spellings, aggressive attitude but accommodating. Iñaki LL dixit. [[User:|Pablo Alonso]] (talk) 01:04, 26 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Pablo.alonso: Please read through this thread in sequence again. He did not ping you, he mentioned your account as opposed to WP:MENTION your account. It was Asilah1981 who pinged you in. And, yes, the internet is rife with software that bounces signals from server to server so that the originating IP can appear to be another IP, and emanating from anywhere in the world. That's why the DUCK test can't be proscribed to the signal emanating from the same region. Given the number of new editors suddenly acting as WP:SPAs working on the same range of articles, there is good reason to be A) suspicious; B) compare activity times and do a little linguistic profiling for patterns. This is not done out of prejudice, but as a matter of comparing the one individual against an editor suspected of being one and the same person. I won't profess to be someone willing to do this, nor to make decisions: that's where sysops who specialise in this area, and have access to the tools needed to make assessments come into the picture. I'm sorry if you are an innocent caught up in this, but I've had some comprehensive dealings with Asilah... and, in going through your editing history, you are highly reminiscent of him. Of course it could be a coincidence, but I've worked on enough highly controversial articles to have become very suspicious of 'coincidences' where there is edit warring and highly provocative commentary going on. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:00, 26 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your patience Iryna Harpy and bringing your knowledge on the field. Suddenly Asilah1981 is gone, but an apparent animosity and litigating remains, rings a bell? If the WP is not able to work out these situations, I am really concerned for the fate of WP and its productive editors. This time wasting is taking a toll on me and is a win in itself for toxic editors.

Pablo.alonso is patently attacking me on his talk page, User_talk:Pablo.alonso, that is clear, with violation of WP:AGF in the face of which I am defenseless since it is his talk page. For the time being neither Asilah1981 nor Pablo.alonso have brought up any evidence, except for fuss. Pablo.alonso's talk page and summary lines [41], [42], [43]. As for Asilah1981, I add further evidence of events 8 months ago including legal threat ("if you automatically revert all my edits", check also history as follows) [44]), [45], [46], [47].

I may not have used all the resources available in the WP, but evidence and the confrontational approach of the editor is there for anyone to see, not subsided. User:Xabier Armendaritz, User:Wee Curry Monster, User:Thomas.W, or User:JesseRafe may want to add something on dealing with Asilah1981. Iñaki LL (talk) 10:34, 26 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Iryna Harpy: I don´t care who pinged, I would have not got into this if Iñaki LL wouldn't have started again talking about me in terms of "WP:DUCK", "sleeper/dormant account", "aggressive attitude but accommodating" and so on, so it was him who brought me into this conversation. You like to talk a lot about ducks, but it seems obvious to me that regardless you saying that my editing history is reminiscent of Asilah1981 you have not spent a single second checking that out. Because if you would have done so, you would have realized that indeed Asilah and myself never commented in the same article. We don't even collaborate to wikipedia in the same themes. We are only related thanks to the unfounded and unwarranted accusation from Iñaki LL. As far as I am concerned, Asilah is Moroccan and I am Asturian, and indeed if you would have bothered to check my editing history you would have seen that I mostly comment on articles related to Asturies and Asturian culture, a topic where Iñaki LL, without sound knowledge and following an interested reinterpretation of history, started a warring edit deleting all my editing without explanations and/or justifications. The funny thing about all this is that you mention "edit warring and highly provocative commentary" when indeed Iñaki LL is the first one that falls into this type of behaviour, but about him you don't seem to say anything which for me could be also suspicious of WP:CANVASS, don't you think? On a different topic, you still haven´t clarified me what is wrong with my English. Pablo Alonso (talk) 12:39, 26 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

??? Asilah edits in just about everything related to Spain and beyond, and especially in anything related to the period of Al-Andalus [48], [49],... Stop pinging me, it is annoying. Thank you Iñaki LL (talk) 00:41, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, your records shows you edited in Reconquista, a favourite topic of Asilah1981 though not editing straight there but in Umayyad conquest of Hispania, Morisco, etc.

@Iñaki LL: Stop lying and confusing editors. The only thing I deleted in my talk page from you was a quotation about edit warring you put there at the beginning, because it was nonsense, it didn't add any value, and it was ONLY a copy-paste of wikipedia rules: there wasn't any original comment made by you on that thing, so stop saying BS about misrepresenting. Indeed, in my talk page, every absurd accusation (and consequently rejected) that you have made is there for anyone to see, I didn't delete anything. On the contrary, you deleted the following entries made by me in yours: [50], in [51] and in [52]. So please, don't embarras yourself accusing me of misrepresenting you when I never deleted your comments and you did several times with mine. You "are not defenseless" in my talk page because your comments are in there for anyone to see, contrary to mine in yours. And you want evidence, there you are: in those links above to sections you deleted in your talk page there were references that proved your disrupting editing and your fabrication of evidences through anonymous accounts, check them out. Again, stop lying and confusing people. Pablo Alonso (talk) 12:39, 26 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Confrontational... Your talk page is a personal attack. For the rest, no comment. Iñaki LL (talk) 00:41, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Iñaki LL: On the other hand, in all those events you mention these past months ago I have nothing to do with them, because contrary of what you may think I don´t care about you. I just commented now because you brought me back, talking explicitly about me, so don't be ridiculous and stop talking about how suspicious is that Asilah is gone and I am back. Pablo Alonso (talk) 12:39, 26 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Pablo Alonso, Im back. Although these days I´m not very active on wikipedia. Btw, I don´t even remember in which context we were accused of being the same editor. Good you are from Asturias its a beautiful place. Iryna Harpy I would not have pinged these guys were it not for the accusations of sockpuppetry by Iñaki which piss me off since I have gone through sockpuppetry investigations a couple of times as a result of this editor. Upon a third accusation, I deemed it relevant to have them in the discussion. Look, yes I have been out of line in the past. I have specifically been out of line with Iñaki in March 2016 (I think thats the date) because he pushed sources which are deemed non-credible in the western world - basically emerging from the ETA PR and support network (this is a fact, not a personal attack). "Basque Conflict" is a politically charged article, which would not be allowed to exist on the Spanish wiki in its current form. None of you want to get into the details, but the fact is that we are dealing with a Israel-Palestine type situation. The way to deal with it is discussion, not conflict or personal accusations. It is something I have finally worked out after a time delving into controversial wikipedia articles. There is no point calling people out on their intentions, even if they are patent. Iñaki holds a grudge because some time back I openly discussed the nature of his political views and the potential legal consequences of certain statements (in Spain they could qualify as a criminal offense). It was a big mistake and I shouldn't have taken this avenue. But that´s it. Nothing I have done recently qualifies as a personal attack.Asilah1981 (talk) 21:08, 26 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Asilah1981. Okay, I do actually trust you enough to take your word on the matter. As I noted earlier in the thread, I've encountered your being gruff in the past, but on the ball. We've certainly collaborated without problems, but editors get (justifiably) hot under the collar on contentious topics. I've been around long enough to have not forgotten the ETA and Basque separatist issues, and I spend a lot of editing time and energy on Eastern European articles. When it's yesterday's news for the majority of the West, it's still very much ongoing in reality. I also know how easily WP:GOADed editors become when they encounter each other over and over. Hopefully, any content dispute can be resolved formally. DRNs don't usually work out for these types of topics, but it's worth a try. Anything is a better prospect than an ongoing scuffle behind the scenes. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:29, 26 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

With all my respect Iryna Harpy..., you are intelligent, diligent and have experience. This is all tacky, confrontational rhetoric in very bad taste attacking me w all the negative words that come to their minds. The last time I had a scuffle with Asilah1981 (must have been Pablo.alonso's case) a similar stage took place. After the short-time username kept attacking me, Asilah1981 showed up saying he had been placidly in the beach. See also striking statements by Asilah1981 here (I am an "occasional editor", sic!) [53],[54] (alteration of sources, check the attitude of Asilah1981), [55] (conspicuous absence of summary lines, an experienced editor?), plus this sequence, [56], [57], [58], [59] (information nowhere to be found) which cannot be more revealing to this moody editor's approach in WP, and I do not know how to make it clearer without being reprimanded for saying this or that. I will not elaborate here on the topic for my own safety if you follow the news in Spain and the evidence I provided on threats. I have provided a long record of evidence. Good night, I won't be coming back. Iñaki LL (talk) 01:02, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Are you really willing to accept that it isn't a personal attack to call someone an activist, to call someone racist, to call someone a terrorist apologist? Asilah has done all these things this month alone. Indeed, his insistence that an editor was "racist" and "xenophobic" earned him a week-long block - that finished on 16 December. This is why I come down harder on Asilah. His personal attacks are worse, and he has form. He came straight off a block for calling people racist and started calling people terrorist apologists.

Even in March, while Asilah accepts his behaviour was bad, he says it was because Iñaki did something. It was not Iñaki's fault that Asilah called him a terrorist sympathiser, not in March, not in December. Asilah must take responsibility for his own actions. If he cannot edit without making these kinds of personal attacks he should be prevented from editing completely for the benefit of Wikipedia as a whole. The fact that he does not even recognise that it is a personal attack to call someone racist, or a terrorist apologist, suggests strongly that he cannot. Kahastok talk 21:57, 26 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Kahastok for bringing this thread back to track, the basic fact for which I started this. Iñaki LL (talk) 06:40, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Asilah1981: Welcome back.Pablo Alonso (talk) 22:52, 26 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Kahastok: I am out of this conversation, but as a last remark to your words and in defense of Asilah, I would like to point out that Iñaki LL is not an objective editor and his editing in the themes aforementioned is significantly biased by his political views, so I could understand some of Asilah´s reactions. Bye. Pablo Alonso (talk) 22:52, 26 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Very telling a username that has done just about nothing in the WP, but suddenly engages with such a vehemence and animosity against a long-standing editor whose work anyone can see. By the way, bizarrely with very good knowledge of WP rules and syntax. There are no POV editors, there are POV edits, and adding POV comments (change of sensitive wording with no WP:VER), WP:OR or misleading summary edits is. And again based on evidence, Pablo.alonso's short talk page is also a blatant (coarse) personal attack on me WP:NPA, for your consideration to sanction. At that point I did not know I could not delete information, albeit inflammatory or personal attack, from someone's talk page. Pablo.alonso escalated yesterday, instead of toning it down, with new provocative, noisy statements against me [60] (note the appalling quality of the evidence, self-incriminatory), [61] (I removed gross personal attack from my own talk page), [62] (again ,removed from my talk page per WP:HUSH]], etc. Thank you Iñaki LL (talk) 06:40, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I´m out too, guys. Happy New Year.23:07, 26 December 2016 (UTC)Asilah1981 (talk)

Well, Asilah, it's not actually quite that straight forward for you. My apologies to all for allowing the discussion to be derailed by the question of whether Pablo.alonso is your sock or not. Kahastok has set this thread back on track, and my experience with you has been virtually exclusively on Hispanic America related articles. Personally, I can hope for improvements in your behaviour by means of a DRN until the cows come home but, in the end, I'm not the one who's been on the receiving end of some serious abuse. I'm very much aware of the fact that you've just come out of a hefty block as I was following that ANI as an observer. Returning and launching straight back into the same behavioural patterns that got you blocked (and bearing in mind that the fact that it was not a longer block was an exercise in 'by the skin of your teeth') is not acceptable by community standards. You're well aware of the fact that blocks are not punitive, but are imposed in order to allow you time to think on how to improve your behaviour... and I'm laying my cards on the table about being biased in your favour due to prior positive collaboration between us. Iñaki LL is, however, a good faith editor, even if sometimes stumbles around a bit due to his English proficiency being of a lower calibre than yours. Allowing your personal perspectives (which you alluded to earlier in the thread) to affect how you interact with other editors, and to the content of an article, makes for a bad editor regardless of other positive input into Wikipedia's content. I'm wondering whether mentorship might not be an option before it's too late. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:43, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Iryna Harpy thanks for you input and thoughts and vote of confidence, I will answer briefly:

• 1) Yes, I would very much enjoy having some kind of mentor, I don´t know 90% of Wikipedia policies (I had to look up the Canvass thing, had never heard of it).
• 2) I really do have the right to go away despite the ANI thing. I´m taking 8 days holiday from a very intense job and would like to enjoy it with family and friends.
• 3) It is unfair to say Iñaki´s English is worse than mine. In Spain, only a certified translator can have his level of English. 99% of Spaniards really suck at the language (sorry guys, its true) and he is not one of them. The dearth of Spanish editors is one reason why there is a lot of issues with articles relating to Spain, a lot of mistakes, excessive focus on amateurish and English language sources and some bias. I consider myself quasi-Spanish (on some level) so I´m involving myself lately in this rather broad area of Spain related stuff (mainly history).
• 4) I think Iñaki is a good faith editor, too. He belongs to the Abertzale left, which is fine (they don´t support murdering people for their beliefs anymore since ETA decided to stop killing). The problem is pushing of false narratives and the use of dodgy sources to rewrite history. I have full faith in the (Nationalist) Basque government as a source, or even the PNV (Basque Nationalist Party). But not ETA´s ecosystem. Iñaki does. Does that make him an apologist? Probably not. That term was not warranted, since maybe he did not agree with the abertzale left´s complicity and involvement in ETA´s political assassinations and the constant threats on a sector of Basque society. I have no right to judge, I don´t know him. But, in Spain answering the question "were you against the killing of that village Councillor?", with "I am against all forms of violence, including the State´s torture of our political prisoners", is considered apology of terror.
• 5) Good Faith editors can still be problematic. An editor who is convinced that the Jews were responsible for 9/11 and wants Wikipedia to fully and convincingly reflect arguments explaining this theory, and minimize or "quarantine" sources which debunk them (due to an editors "experience with the State´s lies") is also a good faith editor. The problem lies elsewhere. We still have to find a way of confronting the narrative, even if Iñaki is a good faith editor who tries to follow wikipedia´s rules.
• 6) That is more than I can say for Kahastok, I don´t think Kahastok should be involved in this discussion at all. He has a bitter feud with me and is quite keen to get me blocked since I stumbled on his past username together with his years of activist behavior and long-term topic ban on Gibraltar-related articles. He is basically a Falkland-Gibraltar editor since 2008, which qualify as single-topic editor IMO and I feel no compulsion to assume Good Faith (I don´t anymore). Hopefully, we will not have to interact much during the coming year.

Anyways, I really am off for a few days, as I think you should all. Wikipedia is fun and fascinating but, for most of us, now is the holiday season and we should all wind down a bit.Asilah1981 (talk) 09:11, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, going on vacation... What is this latest rant about? How the hell is this editor entitled to say what I am or what I am not politically, when the situation in Spain for certain political views is of criminalization, especially for the Basque Country and Catalonia? How do you dare? How do you dare??? Still learnt nothing? Absolutely nothing? Why this urge to obstrazise and alienate editors??? And with extremely sensitive vocabulary??? I could have classified you long ago many things, and very clearly so, still I haven't out of civility WP:CIVILITY I am more convinced now than ever that you are unable to cooperate in the WP. Indeed you are behaving like Pablo.alonso. Iñaki LL (talk) 11:08, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Iñaki, Spain is one of the most liberal western democracies in the world and your right to freedom of expression is enshrined in your constitution. The successor party of ETA´s political wing Bildu, is now legal and even in government at local level in a number of places, since it explicitly condemned violence and terrorism. It is even a coalition member of government in Navarre, if I´m not mistaken. As in most democracies in the world, freedom of expression is constrained by certain basic common values society shares - in this case the right to life. As a result, apology of terrorism (i.e. supporting or glorifying killing/extorting/threatening with violence for political reasons) and humiliating victims of terror (normally Basque victims btw) remains illegal. If you feel that this tramples on your rights and is a "sword of damocles" whereby you can't say what you think, you are classifying yourself, not me. I am simply observing and hopefully finding a way of reaching some common ground with you, from now on, in a peaceful and constructive manner. Again, Happy New Year.Asilah1981 (talk) 11:55, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I was mentioned above about my dealings with Asilah1981 whom I found to be a very combative and a WP:ICANTHEARYOU editor on White Puerto Ricans. While most of our conflicts were eventually settled, and with a lot of outside help, his issues on that page were eventually settled and it is now left alone, but the experience was largely sour, such as Asilah's complete disregard for others' comments and facts so he can push his own narrative, such as the use of the term "Caucasia" which he pushed heavily on the above article, despite Wikipedian and scientific distinction between white people and Caucausian, articles which he was repeatedly and 3RRly asked to simply read instead of continuing to edit war adding the disfavored link. I have no evidence or claims about him using a sock or other harassment, just that Asilah1981 often needs to calm down and read the arguments and edit summaries of other users and also try to improve his tone and civility. JesseRafe (talk) 15:51, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Iñaki LL: The problem with editors such as yourself or Iryna Harpy is that you seem to believe that you belong to some kind of Olympus of Editors, just because you edit much more than the rest of us, something that you, Iñaki, have pointed out in several occasions with sentences like “a username that has done just about nothing in the WP”. This turns you into arrogant editors that think they’re better than the rest of us and don´t accept or tolerate criticism. Anyone who dares to challenge you becomes automatically a “toxic editor” (sic), “ill-mannered” (sic) or “acerbic” (sic). Apart from dropping all kind of adjectives on those editors, the next step is to recite all kind of WP:rules and delete those comments that contain criticism to your behaviours and your words. For Iryna it is enough to stop there, but you Iñaki, and talking about escalation, tend to go one step further by instigating unfounded sockpuppettry investigations or starting threads like this in the Administrators' noticeboard. This behaviour, as I have reminded you in several occasions, is that of a bully because your only purpose is to intimidate disagreeing editors in order to silence them.

Iñaki, you might be a productive editor, as you define yourself, but for what I see you are also a polemical and controversial one that engages in a lot of quarrels and disputes with a number of editors. This should already ring a bell.

Finally let me just remind you something: Wikipedia does not belong to you and your selected friends from the Editor´s Club, it belongs to all of us. It is a global effort, from those who contribute a lot and from those who contribute less. If you haven´t understood this, then maybe you should go and create Iñakipedia where you can freely censor and silence people and picture there your own reality of things. --Pablo Alonso (talk) 16:38, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Asilah1981. I'm not sure as to whether you've started your break, but as you expressed interest in having someone mentor you, I can recommend Irondome (who has acknowledged that he would be prepared to take on that role). Iñaki LL and Kahastok, would you be satisfied with this as an outcome? I'm sure you're aware, Kahastok, that I also have great respect for you as an editor, and want to ensure that this thread doesn't just get archived with no recognition of there being real issues to address, and that an opportunity to turn this into a positive outcome for all concerned before any repetition of distressing incidents for all concerned was missed. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:26, 28 December 2016 (UTC,

Hi Iryna Harpy, thanks for bringing this to the conclusion stage. I think I have brought here more evidence of irregular editing, manipulative demeanor, personal attacks and legal threats than any editor can, with a big distress on me during these days, long hours spent searching for detailed evidence I provided, having to alter my normal everyday agenda to deal with this, for a straightforward case of calling me a terrorist and other like things. Only after the editor in question comes from litigation in a like case, less noisy and much more conclusive, straight down to the point: he is calling another editor 'a racist', and here even worse, 'a terrorist'. Crystal-clear. For all his personal circumstances, which I obviously understand, there is no place on the WP for emotional pleas or special cases. We all have our grievances in the Basque conflict, and some very serious ones. Anything less than an incremental block plus an apology will fail to be satisfactory, per a criteria based approach (check previous Gibraltar case). A mentorship is good after that as far as I am concerned.

Plus there is the case of User:Pablo.alonso (please check his contribution history) with a conspicuously confrontational and abusive approach, a new username with striking animosity against me and no respect, refusing community input, and breach of WP:AGF (explicitly stated on his talk page) and a string of [gratuituous but noisy) personal attacks on me. I provided my evidence, he has provided a WP:GRUDGE with erratic rethoric. Does this need another entry? I think it belongs here after all.

This should have concluded much earlier w less noise, just based on evidence. Regards Iñaki LL (talk) 09:38, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

For my part, so long as mentor and mentee agree, I think mentorship may be a good way forward in the circumstances. If a mentor can help guide Asilah away from these kinds of problems, then the disruption is prevented without further need for blocks and bans, and that can only be a good thing. But we should be aware that on his current course - i.e. if mentorship does not work - Asilah is heading for an indef block sooner or later. Kahastok talk 12:01, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Kahastok, it is then a different treatment from the previous case in the Gibraltar case, despite being a more serious one, which raises seriously my concerns, for all editors should have the security that a certain type of WP violation entails a clear-cut, more or less rapid resolution to it, and not running this gauntlet of 5-6 days, which is in itself discouraging, daunting, and a punishment. More so seeing that he keeps until the end with his gratuitous, judgemental and accusatory rhetoric per his POV. Very serious attitude problem, plus I will not elaborate refuting topic, per WP:FORUM, etc. An apology could improve things, although we know from the Gibraltar case that it led nowhere (well, was it an apology, really?). Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Iñaki LL (talk • contribs) 13:11, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Suggest you make sure you sign your posts, your ping did not work and this looked like it was part of Pablo.Alonso's post below.

Indeed, sorry. That is was I was doing in edit conflict. Iñaki LL (talk) 14:12, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I am looking for a good and useful outcome to this ANI that will prevent further issues. Blocks are preventative, not punitive. We aren't about punishing Asilah for his past misdeeds, we're about preventing new ones. Blocking for a week didn't work. There's nothing to say blocking for two weeks will. We do try to avoid indeffing people if we can - but as I say, Asilah will have to change his attitude if he is to stay here long-term. He was nearly indeffed already this month and an indef is not off the table now. Mentorship is a good option for everyone, in that it will help Asilah see why people are objecting to his tone and attitude, and it will hopefully allow him to become a more constructive editor. If it doesn't work, we can bring this back to ANI - having exhausted this option. I hope it doesn't come to that. I hope that Asilah changes his attitude.

Demanding apologies is almost never helpful. It almost never actually gets you an apology and turns it into me-against-you (though this is already evident in many of Asilah's comments). Better for the editor to accept that they have done something wrong and change their attitude in the future.

In terms of the socking, there is no reason why it cannot be brought up at WP:SPI. It is not generally harassment if there is a good case to be made and if the same rejected case is not being made over and over again with no significant new evidence. For my part I think the case is pretty solid and some of the socks are new. I am not normally quick to assume socking, so when I do get that instinct - as I have here - I tend to trust it. But I would suggest you wait and see. If it doesn't happen again, then problem solved. If it does, take it to WP:SPI, and make it clear that there is behavioural evidence that needs to be investigated: Checkuser can tell you a lot of things, it can rule socking in and it can rule it out. But it isn't perfect and there are other ways of demonstrating the point. Kahastok talk 14:05, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

However, my experience in this case with Checkuser is very frustrating. By experience, I know there are devices to circumvent them, although I do not know how they work. Yes it looks like a purpose-only account. However, this time, is WP:NPA per evidence showing presently on his talk page.

Well, Asilah1981's second last intervention was not an apology, it was an Ok, but again back to judgemental accusatory language, almost tantamount to the same. I was disgusted, it confirms serious attitude problems. If he feels that he can get away with it and in some way he has deterred me from editing, he will come back. Iñaki LL (talk) 14:33, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Iñaki LL: I should remind you that you initiated this by addressing me here in the very first time in terms of sock, sleeper/dormant account, etc. even after a previous investigation rejected your allegations. So I would ask you for a bit less of hypocrisy when you talk about animosity, disrespect, etc...

Moreover, you make a lot of accusations that you should accompany, at the very least, with specific examples. Because I have the impression that you have an extremely victimized interpretation of what a personal attack is. So go ahead, put together all your evidence (because so far you have brought none), and open another entry. I wonder at what point people is going to start to be fed up of you personal akelarres against other editors. Pablo Alonso (talk) 12:22, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

More grudge, deprecation and load for the cannons, plus just mirroring words I used, confrontational to the end, the attitude says it all, etc. Self-explanatory, everything has been said. Iñaki LL (talk) 13:10, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Iñaki LL , before talking about others, you should check out what you do yourself. Because coming back to the arrogance I talked about before, you show an evident lack of self-criticism. In all your interactions with other editors you seem to follow the funnel´s law: "the broad edge for me, that narrow edge for the rest". So don't be so quick in pointing out attitudes to others that you yourself embrace vigorously.

What I see is that you like to talk a lot, but mostly is fuss, noise and accusatory gibberish. Now you do one of these two things:

1. Get all your (supposed) evidences and orchestrate another (akelarre) case against me.
2. Shut up, leave me alone and don't ever drag me again to the mud of another one of your many quarrels.

Pablo Alonso (talk) 13:26, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing to add. Self-explanatory Iñaki LL (talk) 14:33, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

What part didn't you understand, the part about opening another case or the part about shutting up if you can't do the first one? By the way, the "self-explanatory" thing seems to work only inside your head; as it doesn't provide any useful information to anyone else, my friendly advice is that you refrain from repeating it so much. Pablo Alonso (talk) 15:15, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Iryna Harpy yes thanks for proposing someone, I´m not sure exactly what mentorship entails but it sounds like something positive, someone who can maybe help me navigate through policies and advise on how to handle oneself on wikipedia. Irondome sounds perfect, if you think he is a good fit. Kahastok I have had harsh words for you, but I honestly cannot do anything but stick by them, even though for a while I really hoped our disputes were the product of a misunderstanding and you were acting in good faith. You know I just can´t assume good faith with you anymore on Gibraltar-related articles and you know why. It´s not just your history with these articles, its the hours wasted confronting ludicrous circular arguments. Now we are not currently embroiled in an edit dispute we can discuss our past interactions on either our talk pages, if you like. Bu I think my response to your rewrite proposal of Disputed Status of Gibraltar was fair and my grievances with you and WCM are still very much legitimate. I would like to have something on the basis of which to change my opinion. So far I have nothing. I´m still annoyed, but I don´t have a personal grudge and I still am trying to understand why you two have turned Gibraltar articles into the Battle of Stalingrad. Asilah1981 (talk) 16:37, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Iryna Harpy, Kahastok I still think a week block should be good for consistency with the previous sanction (making it incremental). Failing that, the relevant section should at least reflect the outcome of the incident, no matter what he decides to do with it later, so that it is clearly registered in his talk page and further dissuades the editor in question to come back to old habits. Thank you Iñaki LL (talk) 20:34, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I mean week block plus mentoring of course. Iñaki LL (talk) 22:41, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Iñaki LL: I don't have any control over the blocking issue, and this thread has been all but abandoned. Irondome will make contact with Asilah1981 and lay down some ground rules (including a 'safe place' for Asilah to discuss edits). I'm of the understanding that Asilah is intending to take a short break anyhow, so any editing activities on his behalf won't resume until they've worked out the strategy. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:32, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I would suggest to the closing administrator that we use mentoring as an alternative option to any further blocks at this stage. This would require Asilah1981 agreeing to certain mentoring criteria, for an initial period of three months so we can get this colleague and perhaps others, back to productive work here. I have left an intro on A's talkpage. The parameters of the mentoring will be discussed on my T/P. To be honest, no party is looking good here in this shambolic mess, with a couple of honourable exceptions, who have attempted to keep focus. Irondome (talk) 00:57, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Irondome I already agreed wholeheartedly to Iryna Harpy's kind suggestion of proposing someone to act as a mentor. I do not think you should present it as something punitive or an alternative to a block.Asilah1981 (talk) 09:20, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed no Asilah1981 and this is not an "either, or" situation. I would like this mentoring if agreed (which you have) to be in some sense a seperate development. I genuinely think it would help you. A lot of this appears to be in your interactions, where you have no neutral individual to check the implications of things said, either by you or to you, before over hastily and sometimes unwisely replying. That is not just you, as far as I can read from the monster thread above, but at least we can help chill your behaviour. Frankly I would like to get to the stage where you can communicate usefully and productively with all the posters above. Irondome (talk) 16:31, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Irondome Agreed. I have two long term fronts open: Gibraltar-related and with Inaki, the latter being the minor of the two, Inaki having more beef with me than I do with him. Besides that my interactions on Wikipedia tend to be quite placid. To be fair both these fronts were open long before I was involved, so it would perhaps be wrong to consider me a source of conflict as such. I tend to go ballistic only where I perceive (or I have no option but to conclude that) discussions are not being held in good faith. This may explain the widely diverging opinions on the nature of my contribution to the wikipedia project. Asilah1981 (talk) 18:46, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Picking up from Irondome's thoughts on the nature of mentoring, I understand mentoring to be a stand-alone alternative to a block (whatever form it may have taken), even though a block may still be the end result should the mentoree fail to address/curtail their problematic behavioural patterns. To impose a block when mentoring has been agreed upon is unjustifiably punitive. The mentoree's activities are already being restricted and stringently monitored by their mentor, and the option of mentoring is certainly not offered to the majority of blocked editors where it is evident that they are hopeless cases who have no sense of their behaviour as being disruptive to the community. It is in no sense a short-term refuge for those who think they can game the system. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 19:45, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@WCM: My apologies for not pinging you in when I made the suggestion! The thread had become so long and arduous that I'd quite forgotten that you were one of the editors attacked (and that's not to say that you're not memorable... in a positive way). Yes, I know that it often fails. If it does, however, there will be no question as to the nature of the 'agreement' as being by all parties as it is not simply an informal agreement between the mentor and mentoree. Should it fail, the agreement would be terminated (i.e., an undisputed block) as evidenced by this thread. Cheers for your agreement. P.S. And, yes, I'd noted that myself, which is why I chose to disregard that comment and resume on topic. We'll see how it works out soon enough. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 20:18, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Wee Curry Monster that means a hell of a lot to me, take my word for it. Both you and Kahastok I admire to a great extent for a variety of reasons, academic qualities not least among them. I have taken note of both your concerns, and I will create a system with Asilah1981 as part of the mentoring plan which will attempt to mitigate WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour and to increase self-responsibilty. (Asilah, a crucial first gauge for me is how you react to this post. I would expect you to exercise self-discipline and not to comment) We have an interesting situation in which a mentor has good relationships with key parties. I would like to exploit that to an eventual position where parties can actually let go of past issues, and actually work constructively together (again). Irondome (talk) 20:28, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As I said I have confidence in you Irondome, all I'm really looking for is for my edits to be considered on merit nothing more, nothing less. WCM_email 20:45, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

While I'm about it, I'll ping JesseRafe as s/he has responded in this discussion, plus Thomas.W and Xabier Armendaritz who may not be available at this time in order that they are aware of mentoring having been put in place. I'll finish up adding to this thread and wish everyone an early Happy New Year should I not encounter you prior that change in dates. Uff, 2017. Space-age stuff when I was growing up. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:23, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Well, remember Blade Runner was set in 2019, so science had better get a move on. Still can't get an android in PC World. Bugger. Irondome (talk) 21:39, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm fine with whatever resolution was come up with, as the distance from this ping to the "edit" link was far too far for me to concern myself with. Whether Asilah makes strides in not being so hostile or not, or on other articles I don't frequent, I hope for the best. I merely, on request, exchanged one remembered notable (-ly frustrating) interaction with the user in question and have no lingering issues or concerns. JesseRafe (talk) 21:32, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks all for your comments and bringing this unpleasent incident to a close and taking notice of the dimension of the issue. Also, as Iryna Harpy has pointed, this is an alternative to a block as a result of the editor's dysfunctional attitude to the purposes of WP, otherwise an incremental block or similar would be expected per consistency with precedents. As pointed by Wee Curry Monster, personally I am not at all confident he will improve his ways, since in that case he would just be a different, brand-new Asilah1981, but I fully appreciate Irondome's offer to mentor him, let's hope for the best. Luckily this incident is coming to a close, happy new year to everyone Iñaki LL (talk) 09:35, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Irondome Yes, well I'm not sure how I'm meant to react here. I guess silence would be the wiser option. I do find you admiring WCM for academic reasons slightly worrying considering the | surreal historical innacuracies he / Kahastok have defended in the recent past. Spending weeks on Wikipedia pushing (to the death) a position equivalent to Mexico winning the American War of Independence is, to say the least, symptomatic of there being some issue requiring attention, if only limited to this group of related articles. Your experience with him maybe different to ours. I hope mentorship will draw attention (or perhaps limit) such crazy exchanges, even if by proxy. The more attention is drawn to these group of articles the better. Lack of attention is what has allowed for these ludicrous situations to arise in the first place. Anyways, looking forward. Asilah1981 (talk) 00:07, 31 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Any question of bias towards any party is unfounded. All here show excellent intellect and fluency, and of course an ability to use sources adroitly. The nub of the issue is as always interpretation and an NPOV approach to sources. Hopefully these pre-requisites to any work here can be achieved through close discussion between parties with the help of a non-involved colleague. I have good relations with many editors, some of whom have radically different POV's on certain issues to myself. That should not be an impediment to good working relations i.m.o, although sometimes strong disagreements can arise. That's par for the course. The trick is to keep it civilised. I hope to get to know you better also Asilah1981, and develop a good-natured working relationship. When this massive thread is closed, I will present to you some guidelines to the mentoring programme. I would like it to be inclusive, and hopefully some of the animus that has developed here can be lessened. Regards Irondome (talk) 02:32, 31 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Irondome That is the issue. My problem with the <redacted> continuum is not that I disagree on the opinions of these 2 editors (I disagree with 99% of the world on their opinions). The issue is that, my review of their 8 years of edits and interactions on Gibraltar-related talk pages and my own extensive interactions with them during 2016 have led me to the conclusion that (within the scope of Gibraltar related articles) they do not edit/discuss in good faith. WCM even has the unique skill of | launching an RfC in bad faith , only this month. Note this is not something I will say lightly about anyone. Not about Inaki, who started this ANI, not about pretty much anyone else I have interacted with on Wikipedia. Too many times I have approached these two editors seeking to build bridges or mend fences - every single time responded with silence or outright hostility. I just hope your expectations from mentorship do not include further grovelling to editors who I have witnessed first hand do not respond well to civility or attempts at reconciliation.Asilah1981 (talk) 09:14, 31 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately not a great start Asilah1981. "Grovelling" is seriously off-base, and actually rather a grotesque choice of wording. I "grovel" to no one, either here or in real life. I give credit where credit is due, no more, no less. The post above is unfortunately phrased, lets just say that. You appear to be unable to be bigger than your baser instincts, and perhaps lash out without thinking. You will have to make renewed attempts to reach out to the other parties, as part of the mentoring. And no, it would not be perceived as "grovelling", but honestly facing up to your behavioural glitches, which you yourself admit to. Irondome (talk) 16:44, 31 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Asilah1981: I'm seriously concerned that you haven't grasped the fundamentals of why this report was opened, and why you were offered mentorship as an alternative to being blocked. The last couple of comments you've left seem to indicate that you are labouring under the illusion that mentorship is a method of better arming yourself with policies and guidelines in order to launch a renewed assault, and have no interest in understanding that you have displayed unacceptable behaviour... and that Simon is some sort of soft touch. I hope I'm wrong about this uncomfortable impression that you're only paying lip service to the process and wasting quite a number of editors' time. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 09:22, 1 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I fully agree. Note that in the latest block when asked by Drmies to some kind of apology, he replied with 'I will have to change my strategy' which does not sound very reassuring. Plus in his own words, he was off for a break, right? Well, he is still around adding personal thoughts. Iñaki LL (talk) 11:07, 1 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi everyone, Irondome Iryna Harpy Kahastok (whomever else this may concern) I should call to get this episode over and done with, open for too long a time, stating the outcome of it, attempted monitoring period ultimately overridden by indefinitely block. Best regards Iñaki LL (talk) 12:08, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Nope, sorry Inaki LL. Asilah is now undergoing a 3 month mentoring period under my guidance. Due to the holidays, a set of firm proposals that Asilah will unconditionally follow will be posted on my T/P in the coming hours. I have had experience of this and A. realises I am deadly serious on this and the regidity of the terms. I should expect a closing admin to close this wretched thread with the understanding that A. is now under mentoring, and that any breaches will involve escalating admin action. Irondome (talk) 23:49, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Let me bring the latest evidence, the log is all too clear. As much as I appreciate your disposition to find a way out for this case, there are just recurrent infringements piling up one after the other against the editor, with the latest one being an indefinite block. Not that I am impressed by his changes of mood, which makes actually his continuation in the WP all the more disquieting, but check his talk page to see how happily he takes his punishment(s), looks like a trip to the countryside for a child. What is going on? What is going on? Iñaki LL (talk) 12:21, 5 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Close? User:Asilah1981 was indefinitely blocked by User:Boing! said Zebedee on 31 December and is still blocked. Though it's unclear if the reasons for the block are the same as the issues raised above, there is no reason to keep the thread open longer. If Boing's block of Asilah1981 is lifted for some reason, and the problems reported here continue, I suggest that anyone could open a new ANI thread and link to this one. EdJohnston (talk) 16:21, 6 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• I agree this should be closed now. Asilah1981 is blocked, Drmies is going to speak by email too, and if there is an unblock then it will be under the watching eyes of Irondome, Drmies, and me. I won't close it myself as I issued the block, but I think any uninvolved editor could safely do so now. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:31, 6 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Erzan (talk · contribs) is an occasional editor who makes changes to people's nationalities in BLPs seemingly through personal preference, then seems prepared to edit war if these are changed back, and refuses to compromise and just wants to argue the toss by providing links that make passing or tenuous references to the subject. Currently they are seeking to prove that the singer Adele is British by providing links to a passing comment she made at the BRIT Awards a few years ago. Yet, if you Google this topic, there are other sources available that contradict the statement. The British v constituent countries argument is an old one on Wikipedia, and they can be highly disruptive. I tend to think they should not be changed without a very good reason, and have pointed this out to the editor concerned, both tonight, and when this issue occurred some months ago. I raised this matter at the helpdesk, and was advised to bring it here for some extra pairs of eyes. Thanks, This is Paul (talk) 01:20, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This is Paul (talk · contribs) any reason why my comment on your talk page was deleted? And how are references of Adele calling herself 'proud to be British' on the Brit Awards weak? Does she have to edit her Wikipedia account herself to make it stronger? To be proud of something you must first identify it, this 'it' is her feeling a great pleasure of the fact that she is British. Could you please tell me what else she would need to say to make it less tenuous? Are references from the BBC, Guardian, Telegraph, Vogue, Daily Mail weak references? Very confused. Erzan (talk) 01:26, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Deleting comments from one's own talk page is allowed. And she was born in, and lives in, England. Hence, she's English. And hence also British, by definition. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:06, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

What's up, Doc? that goes against Wikipedia guidelines that explains edits regarding a person's biography should respect their own self-identification.Erzan (talk) 02:59, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Erzan, if you're referring to WP:BLPCAT note the limited application: "Categories regarding religious beliefs (or lack of such) or sexual orientation should not be used unless the subject has publicly self-identified with the belief or orientation in question..." --NeilN ^{talk to me} 03:31, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like they edit war quite often if you take into account their block log and warnings on their talk page. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 04:12, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Ezran has now created a thread at WP:DRN#Talk:Adele discussion, which I personally think was opened way too soon. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 04:26, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to hear Ezran explain how someone could be English and not be British. And unless she has a corresponding statement saying she's ashamed to be English, then this is pointless. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:11, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand the logic either. Isn't English the official term used anyways? Someone would have an English passport and not a Bristish passport, no? Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 05:18, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

British passport, so nope, not an English passport. Presumably because Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are part of Britain and would have the same passport as an English man. For that matter, you can be British without being English, I just don't know that it is possible for it to be the other way around. Mr rnddude (talk) 06:32, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note that the so-called "British" passport is actually issued by the UK. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:57, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The distinction between GB and UK being Northern Ireland? since I included it within the context of the "British" passport figuring that Northern Ireland(ers) would have the same passport as well, as I am aware it's UK of GB and NI in acronymified form. Hence, the British passport actually extends a little beyond Britain in this sense. I think that is what you're referring to. Mr rnddude (talk) 13:12, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I take "British" to be an abbreviation, although "UK" would be more accurate. The basic problem with this edit war is that trying to claim she "identifies" as British implies she doesn't identify as "English", and there's no evidence for that. In fact, during her "car pool karaoke" with James Corden, it was raining, and she said, "Your viewers will think England is rubbish!" Note she said "England", not "Britain", and certainly it rains a lot throughout the UK. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:48, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note she refers to being English here (as well as being descended from a whole bunch of other nationalities) which kind of contradicts what she said at the BRIT Awards. As I've said previously somewhere else, I really don't care which one we use, but I do think we should have some kind of consensus on the matter because it does lead to disruption. This is Paul (talk) 14:55, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There's also the matter of context. She was talking about "waving our flag" and so on. Then Corden was forced to interrupt her before she could say anything else. So drawing conclusions about her self-identity from that one comment is called "original synthesis". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:39, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If an American said they were from California but also said they are a 'proud American'. Would it not be sensible to put American? After all they have an American passport, have legal American citizenship and also stated they are proud of their national identity. Should the same logic not apply to Adele? she has a UK passport, a British national, has said she is proud of her British identity and has been described as British by plenty of sources. Her being from England is stated in her birthplace. Her being British and proud of it could at least be demonstrated by editing her summary intro as 'British' with a reference to her speech at the Brit Award? Also can a volunteer please confirm or deny, that the suggestion that the BBC, Guardian or Telegraph make 'weak' sources? thank you. Erzan (talk) 17:33, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

They are sources for her having made that statement. They are insufficient for proving that she self-identifies as British rather than English. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:42, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

So she has a British passport, a legal British citizen, plenty of credible sources describe as British, she is proud to be British according to the sources and her being from England is already stated in the article. So what is the matter with changing the intro from English to British? She has made a positive claim to her self identity, waiting to acknowledge that in case she claims to be proud of being a,b,c means you cannot edit someone being American in case they say they are proud to be a Black American. Is that not inconsistent? Also can someone please confirm or deny, that the sources used like the BBC, Guardian and the Telegraph are strong? Because that was one of reasons for this dispute to even occur. Thank you. Erzan (talk) 17:47, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There is nothing that says she "self-identifies" as British rather than English. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:53, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That is a weak argument. There is no such thing as Black American. Black is a race and American is a nationality. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 17:54, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

And comparing "American" to "British" is a weak argument. Crabapples and oranges. And a good portion of this should be moved back to the article talk page. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:09, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Huh? Being Black (or African) American is a thing and that is why pages like Barack Obama have in his summary that she is the first Black American. It's an identity, there's literally a massive article on wikipedia about Black Americans. Yes being American is also an identity too, which also in Obama's summary. Look at this way, if a previously unknown celeb who came out as Transgender on stage and declared 'I am proud to be Male". Are you seriously suggesting to wait for them to confirm or deny they were not also proud of being once sexually a Female? because that is what the logic implies. Erzan (talk) 18:08, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• In the UK's case - biographies will generally follow a combination of nationality (British) where no preference or self-identification used the rest of the time where they have made a clear statement. Sean Connery is a Scottish actor, Shirley Bassey is a Welsh singer etc. It doesnt come up with English notables as much because they are far far less likely to make an issue of being English (rather than British) than the Scots, Welsh or Irish are. Less of a chip about it. Theoretically if an English notable made an issue of being English rather than British, their biography would reflect that in line with all the other biographies of UK nationals (which regardless of their personal preference, all carry UK passports) but I cant think offhand of anyone who has, but I am sure there must be one. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:29, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I concur with Only in death, if you are a UK of GB & NI citizen, you are British unless you are predominantly described otherwise. Self-identification would only be a contributory factor. Nor does place of birth matter much, (Lloyd George was born in England, Tony Blair in Scotland, the former is usually seen as Welsh, the latter as British). So unless sources predominantly describe this person as 'English', she isn't. There are some silly arguments above, I'm sure there are many Scots and Welsh and NI-ish, who, in different contexts would describe themselves both as being proudly 'Welsh/Sc/NI-ish' and proudly "British', but unless sources mainly describe them as 'Welsh/Sc/NI/English', they are British, and people and sources don't often emphasise, (or even mention?) 'English-ness'. Pincrete (talk) 13:32, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• JFK said Ich bin ein Berliner so I guess he was German. Will you people put a lid on it? EEng 17:45, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A donut to be more accurate. He was a donut. Mr rnddude (talk) 16:46, 31 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Please, not that old chestnut. EEng 13:43, 1 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

To be sure: see here, here, here, and here, among many other citations, for confirmation that Kennedy said exactly what he meant to say, and that, indeed, there was no other concise way to phrase it to convey the connotations of JFK's message to the citizens of Berlin. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:09, 1 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, BMK I already knew all of that, though I was under the impression he could omit the "ein" and just say Ich bin Berliner. I just couldn't resist the opportunity. Even my old German teacher used to make the same joke. Bist du ein Berliner BMK? Ich komme aus Augsburg und wohne in Australien. I know only very limited German so I hope that's all correct. Mr rnddude (talk) 05:34, 2 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm just getting up to speed here, but it seems to me that the questions here are simply has Erzan done anything wrong, and is there any admin action that can help resolve things. The content can be fine and the edit still problematical, or conversely, the content can be problematical but the edit can be completely blameless (we all make mistakes, and are encouraged to be bold).

It's fine to bring such issues here for other pairs of eyes, and good to try to answer them rather than be legalistic about which forum is correct. My call is we've done that and the content dispute now needs to go elsewhere. Happy to discuss this (maybe on my talk page).

But I'd like to invite User:This is Paul to rephrase the question they want ANI to answer, trying not to judge one way or another whether Adele is British (or not), either here or (again) on my talk page if they'd prefer. Andrewa (talk) 23:47, 1 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

^[FBDB]I want to protest your bland exclusion of persons with only one eye from the population of potential observers. Very callous of you. EEng 17:05, 5 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

As I've said previously, I'm not bothered whether we say Adele is English or British, but the problem with the British v Her constituent countries debate is that it is disruptive because someone changes it from one to the other out of personal preference, then someone else does the opposite at some later date because it's their personal preference. This kind of thing happens across a lot of articles concerning people from the UK, and I raised the matter at the helpdesk in this particular case as it had previously been debated on the talk page with a consensus being reached, and Erzan seemed unwilling to engage in further discussion about the topic. I was advised to come here, which is what I did. Andrew, not sure how you want me to rephrase the question so perhaps you could elaborate a little. This is Paul (talk) 00:42, 2 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Some links and diffs would help... I'll provide a start since you don't seem to have done so.

For a start this is your attempt to discuss on their talk page, is that right? The following edit then is your notification of raising the issue here at ANI, and the next (and last to date) is Erzan blanking the page.

I can understand them not wanting to discuss with another who tells them to go away and find something else to do, and leave Wikipedia to the grown-ups. But we all lose our cool from time to time, and it doesn't excuse their behaviour prior to this post.

You mention a previous consensus, but again didn't link to it. Do you mean at Talk:Adele/Archive 2#She is British where the two of you express your different opinions, or is it one of the subsequent relevant sections from Talk:Adele/Archive 3? Or somewhere else? Andrewa (talk) 05:25, 2 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

So, my first attempt at discussing this can be found in this thread which I started in May 2016, and was archived on 27 December, and initiated by edits such as this and this (evidently it had been an issue before I became involved). The outcome of that discussion seems to be 'let's stick with the status quo', and I think it was me who inserted a hidden note in the article stressing that the nationality should not be changed without first gaining consensus from others. Erzan is an occasional editor, but has returned from time to time to periodically continue to make the change (see here for example from June 2016 and thes most recent ones from December here, here and here). Attempts to discuss this with Erzan have failed (see here for example; there's also an allegation of 'making threats' in my talk page archives here). I also drawer your attention to the following series edits from another article (here and here), which I believe demonstrate a latent tendentiousness. My comments here were borne out of frustration over this. It wastes everybody's time when we could be getting on with something more constructive. This is Paul (talk) 17:42, 2 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry to have to say it, but if you really need all of these links to back up your claim of consensus, I have to wonder whether the claim is completely bogus. Is there one where you think consensus is clear? Andrewa (talk) 23:48, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If this question is for me, I did say the outcome of the particular discussion I started was 'let's stick with the status quo'. I guess a more accurate description might have been 'we really can't decide'. In truth there's no consensus for one above the other. My argument is changing these things just for the sake of it is pointless. I've lost count of the number of arguments in BLPs over, for example, Scottish versus British. Someone's always going to disagree with whatever is says in such cases. As I stated at the beginning of this thread that I tend to revert to whatever the text originally said unless there's a very good argument to change it. Providing a bunch of links where someone makes a vague comment isn't enough. Maybe we need some kind of policy on this topic, as otherwise this issue will present itself again in other articles. This is Paul (talk) 01:17, 5 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Recently I came across a dispute at Albert Cashier between Roscelese, a long time Wikipedia editor, and Lgbt.history.ig, an editor who created an account only quite recently. The dispute concerns whether the subject of the article should be referred to as a woman who dressed as a man or as a "transman", and some edit warring between Roscelese and Lgbt.history.ig took place over this issue. I stated on the article's talk page that I agreed with Roscelese's view, and I reverted the article to the version prior to the edit war. My edit was then reverted by Mlr78731, a brand new account started today that has so far made no other edits. This is disturbing because Lgbt.history.ig had made comments on the talk page about getting people who agree with their views to support them at the article: "I am the creator and co-administrator of @lgbt_history, an Instagram account with just under 60,000 followers; if Cashier is misgendered on Wikipedia again, I will make sure that our followers are made aware of your efforts at queer erasure and let them know how to remedy it." Based on that comment, and on the appearance of a brand new account supporting Lgbt.history.ig, it would appear that a serious violation of WP:MEATPUPPETRY has occurred and that administrator intervention is required. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 22:17, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Eh, Mlr78731 is definitely a puppet made of either fabric or meat, but I left a talkpage warning earlier, and you pointed Lgbt.history.ig to the relevant policies on the article talkpage - I'm not sure this needs to be an ANI case unless the account continues editing or more puppets appear. It might happen, given Lgbt.history.ig's comments, but this seems premature. Also, dude, the scarequotes are uncalled-for and rude. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 22:30, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sock blocked indef and Lgbt.history.ig blocked 1 week by Ponyo for abusing multiple accounts -- samtar ^{talk or stalk} 22:37, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Mlr78731 is  Technically indistinguishable from Lgbt.history.ig. I've blocked the sock account indefinitely and the master one week. If, based on discussion here, there is consensus that the block needs to be modified please go ahead and make any changes without need of notifying me.--Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 22:38, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Why are we so easy on sockmasters? This is about the worst thing someone can do. Why isn't the block six months? A year? Indefinite until they humbly demonstrate an understanding of what they've done? EEng 23:02, 29 December 2016 (UTC) Frankly, and only 1/3 seriously, if it were up to me I'd issue an indef simply for using a stupid term like queer erasure. Give me a break.[reply]

Having used sockpuppets myself in the past, and having been given a second chance by Bbb23, who blocked me for only a month for sockpuppetry when he could instead have blocked me indefinitely had he wished to, I think it is reasonable that Lgbt.history.ig should be given a second chance. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 23:56, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hijiri88 (聖やや) here. Don't ask. I agree with FKC in general here (I too have "socked" in the past, although under very specific circumstances). That said, if there is any hint that Lgbt.history.ig doesn't recognize that what they did was wrong or denies that the account was them, their block should be extended. 106.171.73.133 (talk) 06:23, 3 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• A further question is why (at least) two seasoned editors cannot expend the same effort they spent on sourcing a single word in the lede to sourcing the rest of the article. Can anyone provide any good reason why ~half of it should not be removed as unsourced material...? O Fortuna!^{...Imperatrix mundi.} 07:18, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • It would be better to discuss this issue at the article's talk page. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 08:43, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Half my question at least was regarding behaviour, and that is firmly within the purview of this board. O Fortuna!^{...Imperatrix mundi.} 09:06, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• • As a matter of policy, as it is not a BLP - unsourced material is not due to be removed straight away as sources may be found (in a BLP it would be removed until sources were presented) unless it is controversial or unlikely in some way. It could be removed, but in many cases that is counter productive. Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:56, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely- I think it's called- imaginatively!- WP:BDP. O Fortuna!^{...Imperatrix mundi.} 18:50, 31 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

One-hundred-and-one years ago is not *recently dead". --Calton | Talk 02:09, 2 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Meatpuppets now being recruited on tumblr

http://lgbt-history-archive.tumblr.com/post/155182034892/recently-we-did-a-post-on-albert-cashier-a-civil If actual semiprotection is premature, can some admin keep an eye on the article? EEng 00:30, 1 January 2017 (UTC) Also, who came up with a stupid name like tumblr, anyway?[reply]

We've had at least one meat puppet editing the article in coordination with Lgbt.history.ig now: [63]. LeGarde-Chiourme insisted on the talk page that he was unaware of the issue at hand and that his edit was just incidental, but...: [64]. Snow ^{let's rap} 21:57, 1 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It's always a hoot the way these types think no one will notice what they're up to. EEng 15:57, 2 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Has this been going on longer than we think? About a month before lgbt.history showed up, there was Special:Contributions/Queerasarainbow and Special:Contributions/LeGarde-Chiourme is another super-fishy new account (although not technically an SPA, it was clearly created by either lgbt.history or someone they contacted off-wiki). 106.171.73.133 (talk) 06:49, 3 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Good catch. LeGarde-Chiorume is a known meatpuppet in this situation (technically they had a pre-existing French Wikipedia account, but they came to this project in response to Lgbt.history's general social media meat puppetry call; I've saved a copy of a dialogue in which they discuss these activities on tumblr, though Lgbt.history has now deleted the initial post).

I had not seen Queerasarainbow's edit before now, but I decided to see if the name matched a named account on tumblr, and sure enough: [65]. I think you're probably correct; it does seem as if this is not the first time that Lgbt.history has coordinated meat puppets to support their view, and I dare say at this point that there are probably additional socks as well. It's worth noting also that Lgbt.history has now deleted the 'call to arms' tumblr post, so I suspect they have grown wise to discussing this kind of behaviour out in the open, so to speak, and that any further coordination will be conducted through private/closed group channels on social media. Snow ^{let's rap} 20:39, 3 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, having noted now that all three of these users have edited only this one article, and considering the fact that they all three used their common social media handles to do so, I would guess that this is their first foray into this kind of canvassing (and probably Wikipedia in general). That is, we are not looking at a complicated, nuanced or long-standing effort to control content. So we can cross our fingers and hope these folks have learned from this episode what will and will not fly here and that they will apply themselves to working within policy. Of course, it could just as easily go the other way--they will simply rededicate themselves to the disruption through other accounts, not realizing that we have the tools to readily catch such activities. We'll just have to wait and see. I still support an indef for Lgbt.history though--at least until they have shown some indication that they understand what needs to change here with regard to their behaviour. Snow ^{let's rap} 20:53, 3 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

(Still Hijiri. Still unable to log in. Still no idea why.) Meh. The wording of the off-site canvassing message indicates that they were already aware that what they were doing was wrong and were trying to game the system by canvassing followers who already had Wikipedia accounts. They probably won't learn from this unless it is explicitly stated, so I will. Any one of their Tumblr/Instagram followers who already had a Wikipedia account and was a regular contributor would respond to them posting that by reporting them for off-site canvassing, not by doing what they wanted them to do. 182.251.141.136 (talk) 07:55, 5 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I agree; you have to think that the overwhelming majority of editors with even a sliver of experience would see the need to report this, and certainly would not respond the blatant effort at canvassing/meat puppetry. In fact, that may very well be what happened here, since this tumblr post was brought to our attention by an editor who had previously been uninvolved in the article. As to whether the parties will learn the right lesson here, I agree there is reason to be skeptical, but I'm just not prepared to assume either way. It could be that the tumblr post was taken down to be more surreptitious about circumventing process, or it could be that Lgbt.history realized this was a losing strategy that no good could come from. Again, kind of doubtful, given their earlier behaviour, but I've seen other editors turn around and become productive members of the community after worse. On the other hand, Lgbt.history has not appealed the block in any way, so this may just be the end of their interest in the project. In any event, there's been no further attempts by SPAs to subvert consensus on the article since this thread began, so hopefully we've seen the end of the disruption from this group, whether they continue to participate here or not.

On a side note, have you considered describing your login issue at WP:VPT or WP:HD? Between them, I bet there's one guru or another there that could tell you what's going on. In fact, VPT currently has a thread that may or may not be related to your issue. Snow ^{let's rap} 11:54, 5 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Two-part proposal

First off, I take it for granted that Lgbt.history.ig needs to be indeffed at this point. Not only did they respond to Ponyo's generously light sanction for socking by immediately reaching out to their thousands of followers and encouraging mass disruption of the article, but every indication given in the discussion on the talk page suggests that this user is WP:NOTHERE to build the encyclopedia, but is in fact an SPA on an ideological mission. They have apparently made no effort to study up upon this project, it's policies and how to effectively generate consensus and have given no indication that they will. Numerous editors (most sympathetic to LGBT.history.ag's view to varying degrees) have made good-faith efforts to reach out to the editor to try to bridge the gap between LGBT.history.ag's goal and the approach community consensus demands of us here. Those editors have now been slurred as "transphobic" on a public forum as part of the effort to whip LGBT.history.ag's twitter/instagram audience into a frenzy to spam the article with edits consistent with their view. As this user demonstrates virtually zero probability of coming around to understand the Wikipedia process, let alone working within it, I don't see any option but an indef, backed by strong administrative monitoring of the article to deal with the likely further socks.

Second, though it pains me to say it, its very likely we will need some page protection (semi or possibly even full) for a time, in order to fend off a potentially large number of meat-puppets. However, I would like to request that this protection be postponed until the disruption manifests; a number of us, notwithstanding LGBT.history.ag's unacceptable tactics, believe that the article could stand with some alterations to better contextualize the trans theory (which is sufficiently sourced). There's a middle ground approach here which would serve both our policies and the reader, and I think it would be best to try to make those middle-ground changes before the article gets locked down. In other words, let's not toss out the baby just because one disruptive user has sullied the bathwater. I would be surprised if we don't eventually have to impose page protection here in the next day or so, given the scale of the meatpuppetry campaign under way, but let's see what we can't get done in the meantime. Snow ^{let's rap} 02:15, 1 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Support extension of block for User:Lgbt.history.ig, as that Tumblr post was effectively a call to arms with the intention of circumventing the community. Agree with the stuff and substance of the second half of the proposal, but we should hold off on any action until we see the actual extent of the meatpuppetry, if and when it occurs. O Fortuna!^{...Imperatrix mundi.} 12:06, 1 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Support - under conditions advanced by FIM above, to wait and see how effective the call for meatpuppetry was. So far, only regular WP editors have worked on the article recently, but if we see a march of puppets...wham! Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:34, 2 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment: I'd just like to note that the Tumblr post [66] is explicitly canvassing existing Wikipedia editors, rather than recruiting new meat-puppets. One new meat-puppet seems to have appeared, but that was not the stated intention of the Tumblr post, rather its intent was off-wiki canvassing. This means that semi-protection may not be effective. Andrewa (talk) 15:33, 2 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Support both. As someone who's having some trouble logging in on my main editing device at the moment (my laptop is extremely slow and my phone isn't ideal for editing Wikipedia) it sucks that I wouldn't be able to make edits like this without switching devices, but yeah, this user's behaviour is completely inappropriate and this is the only way to prevent it for the foreseeable future. 106.171.73.133 (talk) 06:53, 3 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Just confirming while able to log in that the above is me. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:17, 3 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• I have indeffed Lgbt.history.ig based on off-wiki canvassing and noting the supporting comments here. BethNaught (talk) 20:56, 3 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• As a gay man I'm ashamed not so much by the attempt to disrupt, but by the transparent incompetence of it. If you're gonna be all in-your-face militant and shit on others' behalf, please know how to not fall on your face. EEng 22:20, 3 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

They do not appear to be contributing positively in this area. A couple of recent issues:

1) Invicity per "I don't know if you're meaning to be an insufferable little prick, or if you're just drunk or on drugs. Whatever it is, I suggest you go and have a lay down somewhere and decide which one it is." on Jan 2nd 2017

2) Closing discussions in which they are the primary person involved such as [70] and [71]

Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 01:33, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This thread is a classic tactic of someone trying to derail another thread by starting another. Yes, I did call the IP an "insufferable prick" as they were trolling and warring the Kubrick talk page and then socking everywhere else that I had been. Still, that's acceptable, isn't it. I see that Doc James didn't mention that in his post above. Funny that! And while we're here, and to mirror Doc James' well-oiled tactic, where is Doc James's admonishment for blocking SchroCat after SchroCat posted an innocent talk page message entitled "Coward" after the subject, Noel Coward. Further, what gives Doc James the right to alter my comments? Cassianto^Talk 07:42, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose While I'm not condoning the tone or language used, it appears that Moxy's foibles are being swept under the rug with the opposition of a topic ban for him, yet one is suggested for Cass. Moxy has admitted that the opposing editors will burn out in time and that after stirring the pot, watching the mayhem is fun. He's also made inferences that UK editors are not as well educated as those from the US and Canada.

To me this is a slur the same as saying that all people with dark skin are ignorant. Not understanding why it's OK for one person to engage in Civil POV pushing for fun and insult those not living in North America, but Cass' actions aren't acceptable, unless there's some favoritism being shown here. If one is wrong and should be topic banned, the same holds true for the other. We hope (talk) 02:38, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Support for the same reasons I brought an amendment request to ArbCom involving Infoboxes as well as previous issues with Cassianto's Civility as brought to ANI. This is not the first time we have been here. It seems like Cassianto goes in and out of retirement to avoid admin action based on the prior ANI incidents. It's time we take action against the incivility. -- Dane ^talk 02:42, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I go "in and out of retirement" because of people like you. I fail to see what benefits you bring to this project at all. Cassianto^Talk 10:30, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@We hope: I have not made any type of comment regarding Moxy's actions. My response is only regarding Cassianto based on Doc James' section which I noticed while monitoring my watchlist. I agree with you - if the Arb's had taken action, the discussion here would likely not be happening. -- Dane ^talk 03:46, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose - I don't favor zapping editors out of discussions. No vandalism, no banishment. GoodDay (talk) 05:08, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose one-sided, Moxy appears to be out to bait people, although it is hilarious that someone claiming to be "educated" would write something like Most likily becasuse there better educated, thus have a better ubderstanding of ... Pot, meet kettle. The Rambling Man (talk) 05:59, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose Unless we are about to start zapping all the infobox warriors on both sides. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:37, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose Per above, not impressed by the "Canadians stick up for Canadians" approach from Doc James either and refusal to accept that it is wrong for an editor to enjoy seeing conflict.♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:40, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose The way to stop Cassianto from boiling over is to stop baiting him. People unaware of the infobox background (which has been a running sore for years—see case) should not attempt quick fixes. The tactic used by pro-infobox people is drip-drip-drip with baiting. That should not be rewarded. Johnuniq (talk) 10:41, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

How would people unaware of the infobox background know not to jump in and add one in good faith? Whenever this happens it should be a simple "ahem, please see the history." Instead what we're getting is "sad and desperate" and "delusional bullshit" and being told to "fuck off." Mr Ernie (talk) added this comment at 09:52, 4 January 2017.

They don't know, you're right, that's why I'm courteous to them when they first add an infobox. Diffs? The trouble comes when they don't like it and they then troll me and drama monger everywhere where they see fit. Believe me, I'm not at all liberal with my "fuck off"'s, and only use them when the occasion arises, and in particular, when they troll my talk page and then drag me here. I will not stand for angry IP's who sock their way about in order to get what they want, or people who refuse to come to a compromise based upon their own POV. The comments you quote above are steeped in background dressings; Mabbett has restrictions not add info boxes, and Ho has restrictions not to stir up trouble, so please do your research first. Oh, and Mr Ernie, please try and sign your comments. I know it's a bit embarrassing being attributed to them, but for someone who's been here for 10 years, you really should know better. Cassianto^Talk 16:12, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not embarrassed by what I write, and I don't appreciate that insinuation. It's quite sad to see an adult behave the way you do, but I can't say I'm surprised. Mr Ernie (talk) 17:50, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

And I don't appreciate the insinuation that I'm a child. But hey, thanks for the slice of irony there; victim-crying for something I've said while in the same sentence, patronising me with something you've said. Are you a Canuck too? I only ask because if you are, then congratulations, you've just been ironic! If I've learnt anything over the past 36 hours it's that the Canadians don't understand irony. And as for being sad! Well, what's even more sad is someone whose been here for 10 years and who's not even managed to complete 800 edits. Imagine being embarrassed 800 times? Cassianto^Talk 18:54, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose and respectfully request that Doc James withdraw his call for a topic ban. It's a bad look.--WaltCip (talk) 15:27, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose This seems like a very odd thing to do during a discussion about a completely different editor. That said, Cassianto doesn't seem to be able to insert a filter between their brain and their keyboard, as evidenced above - but this proposal is just a piece of ill-timed provocation. Exemplo347 (talk) 16:49, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • And, it appears,, you don't quite know when to shut up. I mean, I'd have stopped at the first edit rather than made another one. Why make two edits to be uncivil when you can make one? Pop over to my talk page and learn from an old pro ;) Cassianto^Talk 19:23, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

An IP user has been systematically removing wikilinks from the above article. I believe it is well-intentioned, at the same time an attempt was being made to sort the entries alphabetically; hence I have not raised this at AIV. Several different IPs have been used: 5.80.113.163, 5.80.114.82, 5.80.114.37 and a couple of others. Since a different IP is used each time it would appear pointless to use talk pages to feedback the problem. Could the page be semiprotected for a short while to combat the removal of the wikilinks please? Thanks, Martin of Sheffield (talk) 16:37, 2 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ask at WP:RFPP. Regards, Jonathan A Jones (talk) 22:40, 2 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

OK, thanks.  Done Martin of Sheffield (talk) 22:54, 2 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]