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Current disputes

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

– Discussion in progress.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Bengali Kayastha (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Satnam2408 (talk · contribs)
• Ekdalian (talk · contribs)
• LukeEmily (talk · contribs)
• Chanchaldm (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

The dispute is regarding the addition of the Bengali Karana connection as described in the two most essential scriptures (that enlisted castes, local to Bengal) in the Bengali Kayastha article. According to most sources, there was an unavoidable connection between these two. Some schools of thought regard these two as identical and claim 'Kayastha' is a remolded appellation of 'Karana,' Some other schools of thought claim that Karana merged themselves into the Kayastha. But these all scholars accepted that in epigraphic evidence as well as in the earliest scriptures of Bengal which enlisted these caste groups had taken both synonymously. Currently, the complete information is missing in the Bengali Kayastha article.

Sources:- I prepared a Draft version regarding the origin of the community. Reliable sources are already cited there. However here I am providing some other reliable sources 1. quote- "Whatever the case in early times, in Bengal up to about the ninth or tenth century Karana and Kayastha were considered to be synonymous. In Bengal, the Karanas gradually became subsumed under the name Kāyastha, although we have noted that in the Bengali inscriptions of about the Gupta and post-Gupta era the word Käyastha was used as frequently as the word Karana. Generally, it can be said without doubt that in the inscriptions of this period Käyastha is not a word denoting any caste or sub-caste, but one signifying a profession; the Kāyasthas had not developed in this period into the caste or sub-caste which they comprise today." Ray, Niharranjan, History of the Bengali People, p. 175. 2. quote- "Figuring repeatedly in copper plates of Bengal from the 5th century CE onwards, the Kayastha emerged to immense prominence in the early medieval Bengal society. The Kayastha, often synonymous with the term Karana in Bengal inscriptions, is known since the early historical times as the scribe or the clerk."- Furui, Ryosuke (2018). "Social Life: Issues of Varṇa-Jāti System". In Chowdhury, Abdul Momin; Chakravarti, Ranabir (eds.). History of Bangladesh: Early Bengal in Regional Perspectives (up to c. 1200 CE). Vol. 2: Society, Economy & Culture. Dhaka: Asiatic Society of Bangladesh. p. 62. However, He is silent about the Kayastha-Karana connection. Apart from these reliable sources are cited in the draft version. Quotes if needed would be provided here. Sanyal, Sharma, and Ralph W. Nicholas have taken Karana and Kayastha identical. Majumdar claims Karana merged themselves with Kayastha, however, he accepted that in epigraphic evidence and literary sources both are synonymous.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

• Talk:Bengali_Kayastha#Karana_connection
• Talk:Bengali_Kayastha#Origin_Section
• Talk:Bengali_Kayastha#To_do_list

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

The missing information is essential and should be included in the article. One of the experienced and neutral editors LukeEmily, a specialist in editing Indian caste-related articles has fixed goals in To do list section to improve the article. The Karana-Kayastha connection is also present in this. However, Ekdalian is opposing (at least a section) it by providing a previous consensus. The dispute should be resolved as early as possible by providing a reasonable solution to this. thanks.

Summary of dispute by Ekdalian

Summary of dispute by LukeEmily

Summary of dispute by Chanchaldm

Bengali Kayastha discussion

First statement by moderator, Kayastha

Three of the four editors have responded. Discussion can be conducted with two or more editors. I will act as moderator. Please read the usual rules. Then read the rules, again. If there are any questions about the rules, please ask them now rather than guessing. Be civil and concise. Overly long statements make the poster feel better, but do not communicate as well as shorter statements. Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion. Address your comments to me and the community. The purpose of discussion is to improve the article, so we will try to define exactly what the content issues are. If there are questions about the reliability of sources, they can be stated, and then asked at the Reliable Source Noticeboard.

I will ask each editor to state, in one or two paragraphs, what they want changed in the article, or what they want left the same that another editor wants changed. Also, separately, state any questions about the reliability of sources. After we have identified the article content issues and source reliability issues, we will decide how to proceed further. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:33, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

First statements by editors, Kayastha

Statement by Satnam2408:- As I mentioned earlier, I want to add the information regarding the Karan and Kayastha connection in the relevant section of the Bengali Kayastha article. I want to bring the attention of the Moderator to this Draft. I want to incorporate the specific section starting from the line:- In the eleventh century, Bengal was in the grip of Brahmanism. The Kayasthas had evolved into a caste over the preceding centuries [.....] And ending by the line [....] Ralph W. Nicholas associates Kayasthas with Karanas, claiming that 'Kayastha' is a remoulded appellation of 'Karana,' as recorded in the Brihaddharm Purana. The section is highlighted. The section has demonstrated all relevant Theories as propounded by different scholars. The sources and corresponding page numbers are already given there. Thanks.

Proposed paragraph:-

In the eleventh century, Bengal was in the grip of Brahmanism. The Kayasthas had evolved into a caste over the preceding centuries. The Brihaddharma-Purana, a 13th-century Sanskrit text, contains the earliest comprehensive chronicle of the constitution and structure of the cast system of Bengal.[5] The Brahma Vaivarta Purana, significant for a relatively late Bengali recension (c. 14/15th century), gives a caste structure but differs from the Brihaddharma-Purana on caste description. Traditionally, the Hindu society of Bengal was divided into two categories: Brahmin and Shudra.[5][10] The Brihad-dharma and Brahma-vaivarta Puranas explicitly note a caste group called Karana of mixed descent, from Vaishya father and Shudra mother, classified under the Sat-Shudra/ Uttam-Sankar-Sudra category.[11][12][13] Vaijayanti (11th century A.D.), a lexicographer, appears to consider Kayastha and Karana to be synonymous and depicts them as scribes. This reference is consistent with the Brihaddharma-Purana, and epigraphic evidence proves the identification of Karana and Kayastha.[14] According to Jyotirmoyee Sarma, perhaps the term Kayastha didn't persist as a proper caste name; the Karana was the prevalent caste name when these Puranas were composed.[5] According to Sanyal, the Kayasthas are indistinguishable from the Karanas and were classed alongside some trading and artisan castes in the Brihaddharma Purana.[12] Majumdar observes that, After the conclusion of the Hindu period, the Karana caste, whose members performed the same vocations as the Kayasthas, steadily dissipated from Bengal. The Kayastha caste became prominent from this period. According to these observations, Majumdar concludes that Karana merged themselves into the Kayastha, and these two castes were ultimately fused in Bengal as in other parts of India.[14] Ralph W. Nicholas associates Kayasthas with Karanas, claiming that 'Kayastha' is a remoulded appellation of 'Karana,' as recorded in the Brihaddharm Purana.[11].

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

– New discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Lavender oil (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Alexbrn (talk · contribs)
• Zefr (talk · contribs)
• PaleoNeonate (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

The article on Lavender oil as I found it claimed there was no evidence that Lavender oil could treat anxiety or insomnia. The citation for this was a "drugs.com" article that didn't actually make any such claim, so I edited the article to reflect "drugs.com"'s actual content.

However I then noticed that the "drugs.com" article only cited very old articles, the newest of which was from 2018. So I added the findings of a 2019 meta-analysis to the Wikipedia article. This was then immediately removed as an "unreliable source" despite being from the 7th most cited journal in the world.

Attempts to engage in conversation with the user who reverted the changes was simply met with more unexplained requests for a "better source" and also conceding that the current "drugs.com" citation is not a good source for the claims being defended either.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

[1]

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Provide guidance on if any of the multiple peer-reviewed research articles I mentioned on lavender oil (and others that exist), as well as the "drugs.com" article should be included in the Wikipedia article.

Help decide which sources discussed thus far should be considered appropriate for this article.

Possible help in finding a new source if none of the existing ones are up to standard.

Summary of dispute by Alexbrn

Summary of dispute by Zefr

Although a meta-analysis, the 2019 source suggested by the IP editor covers weak primary research in 5 studies, 4 of which were by the same German author in journals of dubious quality. A review of weak research is still a weak source for the encyclopedia. The original edit by the IP was far too detailed and overstated from such a weak review. The previous version concerning the use of oral lavender oil for anxiety was There is no good evidence to support the use of lavender oil for treating dementia or anxiety, which is true and supported by the Drugs.com review (updated in Oct 2021), which stated concerns about the research on oral Silexan for anxiety: the presence of significant heterogeneity, lack of blinding, small sample sizes, and small number of studies (4 of which were by the same author) limit extrapolation of the results. Overall, the 2019 review by Yap et al. is unconvincing as a source, and leaves us with the conclusion there is no good evidence for using oral lavender oil to treat anxiety. Further, there is no WP:MEDSCI source to indicate any clinical organization recommends such treatment. Zefr (talk) 20:42, 26 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Zefr, as you have thus far not posted on the Talk page and only have reverted my changes or posted here, I will copy-paste my response from the Talk page to be here but feel free to reply on the talk page:

It is not an encyclopedia's job to do a peer-review of research. If you don't think the conclusion of these papers are correct because of bad methodology then you should reach out to the journal itself to see if you can have it removed.

In any case, at least the methodology and findings are clear and the publishers' names are known for these papers. The "conclusion" of the drugs.com article is simply anonymous and not peer reviewed, and many many papers are missing from their page in the first place (most papers on their page are older than 5 years too).

Perhaps a middle-ground: find all relevant papers published in the last 5 years on the topic, no matter what their findings are, and write up a summary of what was found. Example, "Some studies show effectiveness[1][2], while others do not[3][4][5]" or "There is some evidence of effectives[1][2][3]", etc etc whatever we find gets summarized. 50.45.170.185 (talk) 19:16, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Lavender oil discussion

• Volunteer Note - There has been discussion at the article talk page, but it has only been conducted for a few hours. The discussion should continue for at least 24 hours. If discussion continues to be inconclusive, a volunteer can open a case for moderated discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:39, 26 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your prompt reply! Discussion between Alex and I have somewhat continued now that a new user User:PaleoNeonate has entered the discussion to again simply claim that the source is bad without much justification. This time though, Alex has acknowledged that there are multiple sources pointing to the same conclusion like https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33638614/ 50.45.170.185 (talk) 19:15, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• I noticed that I was added here but I don't intend to spend much time on this. The discussion at the talk page is likely enough. Moreover, it seems to be an WP:1AM issue and it's perennial essential oils claims... Conflicting studies means no reliable evidence. —PaleoNeonate – 09:03, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  The problem is that there are no recent conflicting studies, that was just an edit I made to better reflect the contents of the original (bad) source, "drugs.com". Every meta-analysis that I can find in the last 5 years all point to the same conclusion: lavender oil capsules taken orally is effective in reducing anxiety symptoms in people with anxiety disorders. 50.45.170.185 (talk) 15:45, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Also sorry if I wasn't supposed to add you to this. I saw you comment on the Talk Page so I figured you became part of the "Users involved". Feel free to remove yourself if that's not how DRN is supposed to work. 50.45.170.185 (talk) 16:56, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hello again, Robert McClenon.

I'm not sure if here or "request for comment" is a better place for this now as Alexbrn and I have somewhat reached a consensus on a good meta-analysis source, but Zefr has now finally joined the Talk Page and has brought up one of the original issues/questions that I mentioned in this DRN entry. "Provide guidance on if any of the multiple peer-reviewed research articles I mentioned on lavender oil (and others that exist), as well as the "drugs.com" article should be included in the Wikipedia article. Help decide which sources discussed thus far should be considered appropriate for this article."

Basically, he insists that the not peer-reviewed, anonymously authored article on "drugs.com" is in-fact superior to the multiple meta-analyses of randomized controlled trials published in peer-reviewed journals. My best effort of understanding this comes down to the MEDRS article, which includes this image:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources_(medicine)#/media/File:Research_design_and_evidence.svg

From my understanding, the new sources would be considered "2nd best" and "drugs.com" would be considered "2nd worst". I feel it has no place on this article, and all instances of it being used for medical claims should be replaced by secondary sources from reputable peer-reviewed journals.

Thank you. 50.45.170.185 (talk) 16:33, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Another example of Zefr reverting findings he disagrees with https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lavender_oil&type=revision&diff=1095480708&oldid=1095476822

Note his claim of "Not a reputable clinical publication" is contradictory to Alexbrn's position on the journal: "Phytomedicine seems a reasonable, relevant journal (impact factor ~5)", as Zefr continues to push for "drugs.com" as the only good source.

From what I can tell, both of these users are long-time editors that know much more about Wikipedia policy than I do, so I'm curious how they reached such different conclusions and how we should go forward from here. 50.45.170.185 (talk) 16:52, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

User Zefr has now launched an investigation into me being a sock-puppet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:50.45.170.185

Until yesterday I actually didn't know Wikipedia had higher standards for medical sources than for other types of content. And I totally understand why and I think it's really cool that the community considers things like the safety of the readers. However, this just seems overly aggressive against me in the face of content of the peer-reviewed meta-analyses I'm trying to add to the Wikipedia article in favor of "drugs.com" ... Sorry if this is veering into too much focus on a user vs the content, but I feel like this is part of why we need more eyes looking at like user User:Pyrrho_the_Skipper who recently joined the discussion to support the addition I made. 50.45.170.185 (talk) 17:26, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

First statement by moderator on lavender oil

Slow down. I will act as the moderator. Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion. Address your comments to me and to the community. These ground rules will be in effect. Read the rules a second time. If you have questions, ask them rather than guessing. Be civil and concise. Overly long statements often only make the poster feel better but do not communicate effectively. Now, it appears that there are two intertwined sets of issues, about article content, and about the reliability of sources. This noticeboard discusses article content. If there is an issue about the reliability of a source, we can put the content discussion on hold while we ask the Reliable Source Noticeboard about source reliability. It also appears that the issue has to do with a statement about whether lavender oil (or its aroma) can be useful in relieving anxiety. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:31, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Each editor may post three paragraphs. The first paragraph should state what they either want changed in the article or what they want left the same. This is about article content. The second paragraph should state any questions about the reliability of sources. The third paragraph should ask any other questions. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:31, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

First statements by editors on lavender oil

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

– General close. See comments for reasoning.