Template:Archive box collapsible

Just to let you know: I plan to remove clear talk page violations from the AIDS denialism page. After being away from Wikipedia since August, I'm amazed that certain denialist agenda editors continue to waste so much of your (and everyone's) valuable time with fruitless debate. Please object and discuss if you disagree with my position, but I strongly oppose the abuse of Wikipedia as a publicity tool for extreme fringe ideas and feel that a hard line on violations is warranted. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 20:18, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I closed the section once, I have no problem with it being closed again. The consensus is quite clear, no-one is supporting the AIDS deniers arguments. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 20:41, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hello friends. Let me start by saying that it is a pleasure to talk with both of you. But, as this is WLU page, I'll direct to him our nice coffee and cigarettes chat.

First of all, I'm not an AIDS denialist or someone from Rethinking AIDS or places like that. In my user page you can find a glimpse of who am I, if you want to believe it.

This AIDS denialism subject is a bit of controversial. Many stupid guys claim themselves as Denialists, while they cannot even understand an abstract of a scientifc work, and they publish every kind of nonsensed paper. But there are many respectable and important scientists which have important dissident points of view and researches about this matter. I gave you many of this works (some of them in pdf.) as I consider them scientifical and good enough to be taken in count.

For instance, Jean Luc Montagnier's position. Since the beginning he was claiming the multifactorial aspects of HIV infection (with many information available in the web about this. But neither here or in the official AIDS page we can find that.

But I think what we should discuss is: which sources are reliable and which are not? Can you explain me, as you are a far more experienced editor than me, how should I define that...

I think we can collaborate each other making this a better article (what doesn't means necesarily a "pro-denialist" article). Just one better, for the sake of Wiki. And about Kalichman: I've read his book in september of last year, it is quite interesting from a sociological point of view.

And, if you allow me, can I ask you this? Please, you should all stop threatening with "erasures" and stuff, I think is not the best way. We can always have a nice neutral chat. Milikguay (talk) 20:00, 11 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't matter if you are or are not an AIDS denialist, your actions will have the same result even if your intentions are good. There is no debate - HIV causes AIDS, this is the mainstream opinion. Wikipedia is not the place to debate this (there is no debate). I'm not interested in reading unreliable sources supporting fringe points of view - and this includes the opinions of individuals who don't work with AIDS publishing in unreliable sources. Despite Montagnier being the discoverer of AIDS, his opinion does not determine the mainstream position on AIDS - and the fact that 12 years ago he published a book doesn't mean the mainstream position suddenly changed. Not to mention, have you seen what he's advocating these days? Homeopathy. Not to mention - not very active with the AIDS research these days. Science isn't a religion, no one cares what the founder said unless it's supported by current data. The fact that he thought AIDS had more to do with cofactors than HIV is meaningless since HIV has found to be causative, while cofactors only accelerate the disease's progress. AIDS denialism is not controversial, it is pseudoscience, and the "controversy" is manufactured by denialists trying to win public relations points. The fact that you are attempting to portray the AIDS denialist point of view as if it has merit means you either haven't read up on the evidence that HIV causes AIDS, didn't understand it, or have and believe it is wrong. AIDS denialism isn't a scientific debate. The science is settled. It's a sociological issue - why and how do people come to believe irrational things, like HIV not causing AIDS.

If Montagnier has a genuine point to be made about AIDS research, that should go on AIDS, not AIDS denialism. On the other hand, if his point exists explicitly exists to promote the idea that HIV doesn't cause AIDS, then his opinion should only appear here to be discredited. That is the neutral approach. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 22:37, 11 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Est not quid volumus videre, verum quid videndum est...

When you say "there IS NO debate", what do you mean with that? Perhaps you are talking about USA, because in Europe, specially in Germany, France, Italy and Russia, i'm quite awared that every day the debate is larger and bigger. Then you are saying "HIV causes AIDS, this is the mainstream opinion", well, I think we are agree with that. But, then, why we don't just erase the AIDS Denialism page, since its content is worthless and useless? Obviously, mainstream believes that HIV causes AIDS, so we do no harm nor damage by improving the Denialism article (if we do not need to erase it).

WP:NPOV, WP:MEDRS, WP:N, WP:FRINGE, WP:REDFLAG WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 21:17, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've read that one million times. So, if this guidelines and all Wiki guidelines should be taken seriously, we should start erasing right now half Wikipedia... Milikguay (talk) 18:15, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

When you say "I'm not interested in reading unreliable, fringe, pseudoscientific sources..."¿does that make you the final opinion for that? ¿Is your criteria grander or better than other editors criteria on this subject? I'm a Chemical Engineer, MSc. in Industrial Thermodynamics Process, PhD. in Biotechnology for Chemical Engineering (you are free to believe it or not, as I would like to keep my privacy). I've been in the world of science since I entered the University and I've been reading and regarding scientific papers for almost 25 years, so when you say to me, or to other editor, that my sources are fringe pseudoscience, you are insulting my intelligence and my criteria as well as other editors's. So why, instead of bunching those guidelines, which all over Wiki are free interpreted, as willed by some guys neglecting other editors's important contributions, don't we achieve an agreement on which sources can be considered "reliable", which scientific opinions or criteria should be considered "reliable" and which others cannot. It would be quite better, for the sake of us all.

WP:OR, and I'll note that you're alleged qualificatios do not include doctor or AIDS researcher. Incidentally, if you wouldn't advice from a cancer researcher regarding chemical thermodynamics in chemical engineering, you might understand why it's a bad idea to take advice from Peter Duesberg about AIDS. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 21:17, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Can you tell me in which university of the world you should study or in which college of the planet should you enter for becoming an "HIV Expert"?? Where is that cathedra?? I've never heard of it... By your logic, I (and everybody) should have an "PhD. in HIV" for being capable of understanding AIDS related scientific papers?? Hilarious!! So, being PhD. in Biotechnology or PhD. in Cell Biology or Emeritus Professor of Pathology and Virology is not enough (as many AIDS denialists are)... Really Hilarious!! And as you've mentioned Duesberg, well. I've never met him personally, but I've heard about his works and books. His cell biology and virology investigations are groundbreaking and in Europe, at least, his opinions are very respected. So, if he thinks that "HIV is harmless" (that's what he thinks, is it?) ¿why should his opinion be less relevant than Fauci's or Ho's opinions? Once again, please enlight me here, as I can't find a good answer... Milikguay (talk) 18:15, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, this was hilarious, my friend (I think we are friends, don't we, or we can be friends...): "Not to mention, have you seen what he's (Montagnier) advocating these days? Homeopathy." Well, fine. We all have our issues, don't we?? Are we going to discredit him because he likes Homeopathy (even if that discipline is pseudoscience)? No! Let me put you a syllogism:

I am uninterested in being your friend. WP:SOAP, WP:FORUM. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 21:17, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Fine for me, my scientific world won't melt because of it. Milikguay (talk) 18:17, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Homeopathy is a pseudoscientific discipline...

Montagnier likes or practice homeopathy...

Montagnier likes or practice pseudoscience.

Is that a logical conclusion?? Are we going to judge him for that?? I myself cannot. It is not logic to think that! Same thing, for instance, happened with brilliant german composer Richard Wagner. Adolf Hitler loved Wagner's music and used it as propaganda. Therefore, several years (specially in USA and Israel) Wagner's music was considered (by an absolute nonsense) as "pro-nazi music", regardless that the composer was not a Nazi (he died in the XIX century) and his works are, simply, masterpieces, like it or not, and his influence goes beyond music. That's just an example of how prejudices can affect dramatically our perceptions. As I know there are many idiotic dissident pages and opinions, also there are many dissident's important works with a great scientific basis, ergo, not pseudoscience, as most guys claim.

There may be many researchers who do great work, but I've yet to see an AIDS researcher or clinician who is also an AIDS denialist. Being an AIDS denialist is about denying evidence in a field where you have no expertise. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 21:17, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You are proposing a paradox. There is no AIDS researcher that will be denialist because he is indeed an AIDS resarcher!! Do you know someone who investigates in something and says "I'm looking for this virus that does not exists"?? Please, man!! There is no "HIV Expertise Field". There are Chemists and Biochemists, Biotechnologists, Biologists, Medic Doctors, Virologists, Pathologists or, in few words, biosciences experts. If you can show me someone who is an "HIVist" or an "AIDSist" from Oxford or La Sorbonne the MIT or any university, I'll further emit no word about this again. Milikguay (talk) 18:15, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No, no AIDS researchers are AIDS denialists because they have no doubts that HIV causes AIDS. The people who deny AIDS do not work with it, but they often claim to have cures. All those fields do indeed do work on AIDS. You may even find people who work in those fields who deny AIDS. But those same people will not have "AIDS researcher" as their professional identity. It's not up to me to defend the uncontroversial assertion that HIV causes AIDS. It's up to you to show me that there is debate in the peer reviewed literature. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 18:37, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Montagnier does have a genuine and important point of view, like many scientists, about AIDS. Why "mainstream" do not accept it? I can't figure out, believe me. Because scientifically, there is nothing wrong with Montagnier's or other scientifics views... Perhaps there is another answer, but beyond science... Maybe you can enlight me here. Frankly, I can't figure it out...

Milikguay (talk) 20:18, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please provide a recent, peer-reviewed publication where Montagnier claims that HIV does not cause AIDS so it can be integrated into the appropriate page. Please stop posting notes on my talk page, I am uninterested in debating this. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 21:17, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Scientific papers do not have a "deadline time of worthness". Cholera is caused by the vibrio cholerae and this is known since the XIX century. Do you need a peer reviewed XXI century work for accepting this? But even so, I gave you several links, not just from Montagnier, but from other highly qualified experts, but you and other editors just keep on neglecting that, shielding yourself in a free will interpreted guidelines, even if my and other guys information does not violate specifically any of your points and even if I made clear several times that I'M NOT an AIDS denialist. Milikguay (talk) 18:15, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No-one is asserting that cholera is not caused by v. cholerae, but you are attempting to say that Montagnier is an AIDS denialist. The idea that cholera is an infectious disease with a bacterial cuase is uncontroversial. The idea that HIV does not cause AIDS is. So much so that suggesting it runs afoul of our policy on the biographies of living persons. The balance of proof is placed on the person asserting the fringe position is not a fringe position. You have presented sources published in fringe journals. Medical Hypotheses and the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons are your "top tier" sources so to speak. Neither is acceptable for reasons found in their wikipedia pages. Do you have anything from AIDS and behavior, or the Journal of Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome that suggests HIV does not cause AIDS? There is a reason the only sources discussing AIDS as if it were anything but a syndrome caused by a specific viral infection are non-specialist, non-medical, non-acceptable sources. The idea that HIV does not cause AIDS is considered batshit insane. Still think the editors opposing your suggestions are a selective group of meanies? Bring up your idea at WP:ANI, or WT:MED or WP:FTN. See what kind of reaction you get. You claim you are not an AIDS denialists, but your edits only suggest you are denying being a denialist. HIV causes AIDS. Worldwide medical consensus of the relevant experts. As far as wikipedia's concerned, case closed. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 18:37, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hallo, I've just looked at your comment here and was intrigued by your idea that "now it's filling in the gaps for small towns in North America, states and provinces elsewhere, and new items appearing in pop culture or the news." Did you really mean that small towns elsewhere don't have the same right to a place in Wikipedia as small towns in America, or was it supposed to be a comment on the demographic of Wikipedia editors (who seem to be an increasingly international bunch, rather than biased to small town USA). PamD (talk) 19:18, 12 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No, I meant realistically nearly any small town in the US will have someone who is literate and has intenet access, therefore is able to contribute to en.wikipedia and has the motivation to write an article about their home town. But in Bhut-phuk Gnowhar, North Korea (pop'n: 325 including water buffalo), it's less likely there is an English-writing person with internet access. Outside of that town, it's unlikely there is someone willing to put in the time and effort to write out an English wikipedia article on the town. Ideally we'd have an article on every single small town in the world but realistically the number of people who can write that article and want to for a town outside of North American and/or the UK is extremely small. It's a throwaway comment, were I my druthers I'd erase most of the small town articles irrespective the country, but I'm a deletionist. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 21:40, 12 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, WLU. You have new messages at PPdd's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

re TB Absurdity and RIdiculousness at my talk page. PPdd (talk) 17:19, 13 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, popping in to say hello and to let you know about something that might be of interest to you and your talk page stalkers. There is a new policy, guideline etc, not sure exactly which it's going to be, at Wikipedia:Town sheriff. I personally think that editors need to be aware of this since it is going to go to the village pump to see if it can be tested or acted on. I just want to bring this to other's attentions since I think this could be a big change. I'm not sure how or even if this is going to be advertised so that editors are aware of it so I think word of mouth is needed to make sure that editors keep an eye out. Anyways, I thought this would be of interest to you and I hope you will watch list it and keep an eye on the discussion and where it moves to and so on. We have to be involved in new policies and guidelines that are being suggested, even if it's just so that we are aware of them if they are in fact enacted.

On a personal note, I'll send you an email soon with the latest from here. I got out of the hospital yet again about a week and a half ago (not sure anymore, time and days are blending together these days). I've got a bad case of bronchitis which of course is what put me into the hospital. I was there again for four days but of course I had to share it with my beloved husband who is now battling with it too and so the sharing is going on again. I see the doc Monday and this time I will have him treat both of us so we can get rid of it. I can't afford nor stand going to the hospital again. Anyways, I'll fill you in on this garbage and some fun things in an email. (Disclaimer: My emails to WLU do not talk about the project, it's personal, ty). Talk to you soon, going to go lay down for awhile. Be well my friend, CrohnieGal^Talk 13:27, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have a possible home for parts of User:WLU/Pharmanoia at the newly created Wikipedia:Conflicts of interest (medicine), which I would love to have on your watchlist. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:55, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]