Barnstars The Barnstar of Diligence I, Agnistus award this Barnstar to Kwami for his invaluable contributions to the Origin of hangul article. The Anti-Flame Barnstar I think you deserve a golden fire extinguisher for helping me deal with that misguided revolutionary Serendipodous 10:47, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply] The Graphic Designer's Barnstar For your wonderful moon mass charts, I offer the Graphic designer's barnstar. Serendipodous 12:24, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply] The Original Barnstar For transforming Rongorongo from a sketchy, unhelpful mess into a tightly organized family of articles covering the entire Rongorongo corpus in a manner both scholarly and accessible, I award you this Barnstar. May it bring you much mana! Fishal (talk) 02:10, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply] The Working Man's Barnstar For getting all the EL61 links changed to Haumea (dwarf planet), I think you deserve the working man's barnstar. Must have been tedious as heck. Serendipodous 09:40, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply] The Original Barnstar Presented for your creation of the Malagasy IPA pages and your tireless transcription efforts. Thank you! Lemurbaby (talk) 11:44, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply] The Graphic Designer's Barnstar For your contributions to File:IPA chart 2005.png (better seen in the English Wikipedia logs since the move to Commons). In taking linguistics courses as an undergraduate, having a printout-size and easy-to-find IPA reference was indispensable. I will probably be finding printouts of this file mixed in with my college papers for decades to come; that's just how often I used it. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 22:31, 7 December 2010 (UTC)[reply] The Tireless Contributor Barnstar I, Stevey7788, hereby present you the Tireless Contributor Barnstar for your tremendously prolific work on languages and linguistics. Excellent articles, wonderful images, and impressive contributions overall! — Stevey7788 (talk) 23:17, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply] The Editor's Barnstar For your continued good work in articles on languages. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 00:55, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply] The Teamwork Barnstar I hope the script story will have a happy end :-) Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 21:47, 3 August 2011 (UTC)[reply] The Original Barnstar Hi there, I noticed that you edited an article that I created (Chay Shegog) and edited the pronunciation. I am a Shegog myself. I'm not bothered about your change at all. The emphasis is how you wrote it so shi-GOG. I noticed that you have done some stuff related to American Indians on Wikipedia. Are you of Native American descent? I've done some research and there is some evidence to suggest that the name Shegog is taken from zhigaag (so like Chicago with two g's and no 'o') which means skunk in the Ojibwe language. But all Shegog's I know pronounce it with a short -og similar to dog. Thanks, Shegan AGirl1191 (talk) 04:16, 6 March 2012 (UTC)[reply] The Tireless Contributor Barnstar Thanks for your recent run of newly-created language articles, and for your efforts to improve the encyclopedia. Northamerica1000(talk) 17:28, 17 March 2012 (UTC)[reply] The Original Barnstar thank for contributing us... Liansanga (talk) 00:23, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply] The Admin's Barnstar For your past excellent service as Administrator, and a sad reminder that sometimes ARBCOM can blow it - big time. HammerFilmFan (talk) 01:33, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply] Guardian of Hamari Boli Most sincere gratitude for your invaluable contributions to Hindi-Urdu related articles on English Wikipedia. Forever indebted to you -and wikipedia of course- for telling it like it is.. Amazing how you never gave up and went thru all the troubles dealing with zealots. Bravo! You're one of the inspirations that led to the genesis of http://www.HamariBoli.com edge.walker (talk) 22:01, 11 August 2012 (UTC)[reply] The Instructor's Barnstar This Barnstar is awarded to Wikipedians who have performed stellar work in the area of instruction & help for other editors. For your contributions to the Wikipedia:Manual of Style and especially for your contributions to Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Text formatting. Moreover, in providing examples of how to implemented the Manual in text editing and your great cooperation with me! Magioladitis (talk) 22:54, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply] The Resilient Barnstar For your WP rules following Saraikistan (talk) 18:41, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply] The Barnstar of Diligence For your linguistic contributions. We will carry on this professional discussion later because I will be off now. Regards Maria0333 (talk) 07:59, 7 February 2013 (UTC)[reply] The Original Barnstar For all-round good work, but especially this edit. Keep it up! Green Giant (talk) 09:12, 8 January 2014 (UTC)[reply] All Around Amazing Barnstar Dear Kwamikagami, thank you for all of your amazing contributions to language related articles. Your contributions are making a difference here on Wikipedia! Keep up the good work! With regards, AnupamTalk 21:25, 9 April 2014 (UTC)[reply] The LGBT Barnstar For your work over at Public opinion of same-sex marriage in the United States, the article looks vastly improved and I am happy to see there was an agreement made on the results. =) Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:46, 25 April 2014 (UTC)[reply] The Brilliant Idea Barnstar Good job Sit1101 (talk) 01:53, 30 December 2014 (UTC)[reply] The Multiple Barnstar These are just some barnstars for some of the many amazing things you do here on Wikipedia, I don't know what this site would do without you. Abrahamic Faiths (talk) 21:06, 27 April 2015 (UTC)[reply] The Original Barnstar For working to help close RfCs and reduce the backlog. Wugapodes (talk) 00:54, 5 August 2015 (UTC)[reply] The Tireless Contributor Barnstar For great, expeditious and lynx-eyed reviewing and correction of all Aboriginal articles,Nishidani (talk) 16:37, 14 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] The Papua New Guinean Barnstar of National Merit Thank you for your many years of tireless work on articles of Papuan languages! Here's something to add to your long list of barnstars. (Although admittedly, this is just for "East New Guinea Highlands languages" and other Papuan languages on the eastern half of the island.) — Sagotreespirit (talk) 09:56, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply] The Original Barnstar Because you do an incredible amount of good work, and I am more or less in awe at how much you know. Also, I think you do not have enough barnstars. ^_^ Double sharp (talk) 05:06, 22 August 2020 (UTC)[reply] The Special Barnstar For creating the Tyap language article. Thanks! Kambai Akau (talk) 20:22, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply] The Mathematics Barnstar For getting Kaktovik numerals to good article status. Thank you Akrasia25 (talk) 18:22, 6 March 2021 (UTC)[reply] The Reviewers Award By the authority vested in me by myself it gives me great pleasure to present you with this award in recognition of the thorough, detailed and actionable reviews you have carried out at FAC. This work is very much appreciated. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:33, 18 September 2021 (UTC)[reply] The Editor's Barnstar Thanks for your tireless editing and ability to recognize the nuance most miss, do not understand, or fail to research regarding parliamentary law vis-à-vis a supreme court’s jurisdiction specially regarding Nepal Quaerens-veritatem (talk) 06:10, 24 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The colubrid Telescopus semiannulatus in an acacia, central Tanzania.	Archives 2004 Aug – 2005 Nov 2005 Dec – 2006 Jan 2006 Feb–May 2006 Jun – 2007 Dec 2008 Jan–Sep 2008 Oct–Dec 2009 Jan–Mar 2009 Apr–Aug 2009 Sep – 2010 Mar 2010 Apr 2010 May–Sep 2010 Oct–Dec 2011 Jan–May 2011 Jun–Aug 2011 Sep–Dec 2012 Jan–Apr 2012 May–Jul 2012 Jul–Sep 2012 Oct–Dec 2013 Jan–Mar 2013 Mar–Jun 2013 Jul–Sep 2013 Oct–Dec 2014 Jan–Mar 2014 Apr–Dec 2015 Jan–Jun 2015 Jul–Dec 2016 Jan – 2018 Jun 2018 Jul – 2019 Jun 2019 Jun – 2020 2021 2022 2023 most recent (automated)	This user is one of the 40 most active English Wikipedians of all time. This user is a former administrator on the English Wikipedia (verify). Quotes: Only an evil person would eat baby soup. To shew that there is no tautology, no vain repetition of one and the same thing therein. In this country we treat our broads with respect. Words of the day: anti-zombie-fungus fungus

This user is an administrator on the English Wikipedia. (verify) This user is one of the 100 most active English Wikipedians of all time.

Hi!

I was wondering if I could ask for your help with updating the map on the Female Heads of Government and Female Heads of State articles? I saw that you've made modifications to it earlier, and thought that I might ask since I don't know how to do it myself. It is about Dilma Rouseff; the President of Brazil is both Head of State and Government, and thus Brazil should be colored light orange on the map. It would be great if you could change it :).

Thanks --Darthdyas (talk) 23:54, 8 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

José Sarney is the president of the parliament. Wouldn't that make him the head of government? Or is that not equivalent to a PM, as a presidential republic? — kwami (talk) 23:55, 8 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Never mind. Changed. — kwami (talk) 02:05, 9 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Taht IS the government, Kwami, it's not a "tribe" in the lower-case sense, i.e. "a people" ,but rather comprised of several peoples who share the common government/reservation. I tried to revert but for some reason can't/ this and certain others of the same kind should NOT be changed; they are not ethnographic peoples, they are "Tribes" only in the legal-mandate/government sense.Skookum1 (talk) 21:17, 1 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, that wasn't clear to me. Do we have an article on captital-T Tribe to dab our links with? — kwami (talk) 21:24, 1 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Was gonna edit that list some, but don't see how to get to it here; even though it displays - ? Snoqualmie Tribe is a government, should be capital-T; not sure there was a Snoqualmie people at all; I think they're an amalgamation of various tribes in the ethno sense. And no, linguistic unity did not mean political/social unity - this is something of an issue in BC where the provincial government wants to stop dealing with 110+ separate "nations" and reduce it to a list of 23 or so, based on linguistic affiliations; but that doesn't always work well; the Wet'su-wet'en are Carrier, or a subgroup of Carrie, but have been tied to the neighbouring Gitxsan for centuries; the various divisions of the Kwakwaka'wakw were and are distinct tribes, despite the common language; Kitsaoo is a Haisla-Tsimshian alliance, also predating Contact. The Tahltan, Kaska and Nahanni are all the same language, but different tribes/peoples/governments. Some Kwak'wala bands use "Tribe" (capital-T) in their names, one t hat comes to mind is Tlowitsis Tribe....coastal peoples are organized by clan, more than they are by language; see Ganhada, wherever that refers to, which is about one of the main clans, which are cross-language-group and cross-"tribal". Much like "chief", "tribe" is an imposed concept; places like Masset or Squamish/Capilano had more than one chief; in Coast Salish peoples siyam, usually translated as "chief", is really the noble class, and each community has more than one family with that appellation; the idea of a monarchical chief is an outside concept; likewise the notion of "tribes".....each village in BC was its own country, virtually, and within languages there were often bitter enemies, centuries-long in rivalry.....anyway I'll look over that list further; but make sure to read the article; if they were assembled on a reservation they are not a "people", and "Tribe" would refer to the post-conquest government/legal charter. The Okanagan National Alliance homepage lists "bands" in the Colville Reservation, by the way, which are really (in WP Wash) actually towns within that Reservation and SFAIK not chartered as "bands" as such, but as town governments somehow; e.g. Nespelem.Skookum1 (talk) 23:25, 1 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

To edit the list, see User talk:Kwamikagami/top. Comments there or here as you like. For the original list, see my Oct-Dec archive. — kwami (talk) 23:43, 1 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Somewhere out there, User:Uysvidi and I are discussing the same thing; I'll try and find that discussion; it may be, or one part of it, on the NorthAmNative talkpage....Skookum1 (talk) 04:20, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thought I'd toss this request over to you....if User:Old ManRivers were around he could supply it (He's 'Namgis (Nimpkish) on one side....I know those /kw/ phonemes are some particular back-guttural, not just like "kwah" in English...many white people pronouncing this make it sound rather, um, vulgar/pornographic......Skookum1 (talk) 04:20, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I can only guess what the allophony might be, but I gave it a shot. — kwami (talk) 06:44, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Would you cast an admin's eye over Talk:Mad Hatter? Discussion about a proposed move (by me) to The Hatter has been frustratingly stonewalled (in my opinion) to the detriment of accuracy. -- Evertype·✆ 10:54, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hey,

I agree with your POV, but that isn't an administrative issue. It is frustrating to argue about each article rather than having a set convention, and it is the quality of the arguments that's considered, but there are valid arguments on both sides here. As at starfish, for example. I think it's poor form to have it under that name, since it isn't a fish (at least not since the 20th century), and I once moved it, but that is the common name, from the days when turtles and cowries were fish, and I was reverted. I can add my opinion, but I don' see what I could do as an admin, unless I can judge one argument unconvincing. — kwami (talk) 13:26, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Kwamikagami! I have a favour to ask you. I took a look at the contributor statistics for the Wikipedia:IPA for English page and I see that you're the biggest contributor on there, so I reckon you're probably the best person to approach with my request. I'm currently working to get The Byrds article ready for a GA review but because of the unusual way the band spell their name, I want to add a bracketed IPA pronunciation guide to the opening sentence, using the {{Pron-en}} template...as has been done in the Metallica and Devo articles. However, I have very litle idea of how the International Phonetic Alphabet works and I don't want to mess it up. Would you be kind enough to do this for me? Many thanks in advance. Oh, by the way, in case it's not obvious, Byrds is pronounced as Birds. --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 19:43, 8 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think your best bet would be to say just that: "pronounced as birds" or some such. That would be the most accessible to the widest audience. If you really want the IPA, though, it would be /ˈbɜrdz/. — kwami (talk) 21:28, 8 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

OK, thanks for your advice and help. It is much appreciated. --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 01:11, 9 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Would you mind clarifying where you sourced the English pronunciation for the word "Tamazight"? (I'm not sure what you meant by "random house".) /ˈtæməzaɪt/ seems dubious; the word is not English and thus a phonetic rendering such as [ˈtæməzɪgt] would seem to be better than a spelling pronunciation ("ight" being pronounced as in "fright", etc.). Thanks, Mo-Al (talk) 03:25, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Here. I haven't checked the print version of the Random House dict, though, and it isn't listed in the OED. Webster's III is another place to check. — kwami (talk) 07:00, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This seems highly dubious to me. I doubt anyone knowledgeable enough to use the term "Tamazight" rather than "Berber" would pronounce it that way (note its pronunciation in French, by the way). However it's not a big issue, I guess. Mo-Al (talk) 02:32, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I'm not so sure myself. I think if we're going to use it as an English word, we should supply an English pronunciation, but that's all I could find apart from /ˈtæməzɪərt/ for the French spelling. — kwami (talk) 07:36, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Around the Linguistic Data Consortium of the University of Pennsylvania where we've been developing a Language Resource wiki for researchers in poorly resourced languages, we pronounce it [tɑmɑˈzɪɣt].

Random House is the name of a large publisher whose product line produces dictionaries. If they say */ˈtæməzaɪt/, they're wrong: that could only be an uninformed English spelling pronunciation, dollars to donuts automatically generated.

If you're looking for a purely English pronunciation, I'd suggest [tɑmɑˈzɪgt], changing the [ɣ] to a [ɡ]. Thnidu (talk) 04:37, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

[tɑmɑˈzɪɣt] is not English, and [tɑmɑˈzɪgt] is just made up. If we're going to claim this word is English, we should at least have an English pronunciation. — kwami (talk) 07:20, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think you misunderstand. I work at the LDC, and have worked with Tamazight speakers. This is a loan form that we have observed and use in borrowing the endonym [tɑmɑˈzɪɣt] into English. We didn't "make it up", any more than anyone "made up" the pronunciation /ˈtæmɨl/ [ˈtʰæmɨl] for the endonym of the Tamil language, [t̪ɐmɨɻ] (substituting an aspirated alveolar stop for an unaspirated dental one and going on from there). Another loan pronunciation would be /tɑmɑˈzirt/ (or /tæməˈzɪərt/), as English-speakers often hear a non-strident [ɣ] as a type of /r/.

Random House's /ˈtæməzaɪt/ is sheer nonsense, a spelling pronunciation no more defensible than */fræŋˈkeɪz/ would be for "français". I would call either a ghost pronunciation, generated from the spelling without reference to any pronunciation ever uttered for the word. It would be better to offer no pronunciation at all than such a bogosity.

So, I conclude, we are in agreement: "If we're going to claim this word is English, we should at least have an English pronunciation." I'm deleting this so-called English pronunciation, with no replacement. See Talk:Central Atlas Tamazight#English pronunciation of the name "Tamazight" Thnidu (talk) 05:17, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The article Yi language is being discussed concerning whether it is suitable for inclusion as an article according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Yi language until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. ––虞海 (Yú Hǎi) ✍ 11:50, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hello again. I wasn't sure if you'd checked Talk:Ainu languages recently, but I've (finally) gotten around to responding. --Limetom 20:02, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is Standard Mandarin and Standard Chinese and posisbe inapproiate use of tools. Thank you. Dpmuk (talk) 15:00, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I see you're on a disambiguation page-creating rampage. So far, you've created at least 7000 new dab links - they're most of the entries at the top of the list here. Now, you aren't required to clean up after yourself per WP:FIXDABLINKS - and if past history proves anything, you won't - but I have to say, it's pretty disappointing to see an editor of your experience willing to create such a huge mess and leave it for others to fix. --JaGa^talk 16:56, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not creating the mess, WP is already a mess. Funny how calling anyone's attention to that, or starting to solve it, makes it my fault. I find it disappointing that you'd rather blame someone than actually do anything about it.

If, of course, you determine that e.g. Telugu is nearly always used for, say, the language rather than the people or script, then you're welcome to revert me. — kwami (talk) 17:01, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not opposing the change. I'm opposing dumping a ton of work on others. It will take many many hours for the DPL project to fix all of these links, and it would be nice if you could give a hand. --JaGa^talk 17:12, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate that, but if they need to go to various articles, then it was an even worse problem before I created the dab page, because many were going to the wrong page rather than to just a dab, and I'm not creating any work that didn't already need to be done. If it's too much work, then just revert and bury the problem for some future editor to deal with. I'd like to be able to help out, but I'm backlogged as it is with rd problems that make it difficult to find pages; a dab page just adds another mouse click. — kwami (talk) 18:20, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We'll fix it. If you feel OK with doing the 15 seconds' worth of work to create a disambig, and leave the hour's worth of dabfixing work to others, that's up to you. I just wanted to make sure you're aware of what you're doing. --JaGa^talk 18:46, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it was good for me to see the consequences. For a well developed article like Telugu, I'm sure our readers can figure it out if you revert. But as you like. — kwami (talk) 18:54, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not reverting you, Kwami. I, along with a handful of other editors, will roll up our sleeves and fix the mess you've created. If you'd like to help, you could take a stab at Marathi. It's not difficult work, just time consuming. It can even be enjoyable, if you're willing to give it a try. --JaGa^talk 19:04, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I am going to revert some of these. I commenced with the sleeve-rolling-up previously mentioned, and after a while, I noticed that for most of the articles, almost all of the links were intended for X people, not X language. That is a WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. What's more, these dabs you've been creating have only two entries. So now we're into WP:TWODABS territory. That is, when there are only two entries on a disambig, and one is a primary topic, the proper thing is to redirect to the primary and put a hatnote on the primary for the second article.

So, I'm going through this list of new dabs, evaluating, and redirecting to the primary when necessary. Still a mess, but it cuts down on the workload somewhat.

If you have still more dabs you want to create, please review WP:TWODABS before proceeding (and give us a chance to clear the present backlog first!)

Cheers, --JaGa^talk 05:14, 16 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hadn't seen that before. Still, I'm not sure that's what "primary topic" means for WP. You're saying it's whichever topic that has the most links, while the WP page you linked to says it's the one most likely to be entered into a search engine. With people vs language, I don't know how you'd decide that: is the random reader really more likely to be searching for French people than the French language? And for obscure peoples vs obscure languages? When I've created X people vs X language articles, other editors have complained when X was a redirect rather than a dab, which is why I've been going through them. — kwami (talk) 06:34, 16 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is hugely disruptive of you to create all these dablinks and then not make any attempt to fix the incoming links. Please stop creating them and start dabbing. DuncanHill (talk) 14:20, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If you don't want to clean them up, then don't. It's hardly a problem to have readers click on a dab page now and then. It's more disruptive to take them to the wrong article. Or do you prefer appearance over substance? We could have a pretty encyclopedia with no actual content--would that make you happy? — kwami (talk) 21:37, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If you're the person who has actually identified that the links are wrong, then you are better placed than anyone to actually fix them. Instead you create masses of dab pages byt don't actually fix the links. I would note that at least one of the dab pages you created managed not to include a link to the page which used to occupy the space. DuncanHill (talk) 22:55, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm responding to complaints that we have X as a redirect to either X people or X language when both articles exist. I've gone through what links to several of these redirects, and seen that the links are often mixed, so that readers really are being taken to the wrong articles. Turning X into a dab page solves that problem. It may not be as elegant as correcting all the links, but a quick fix is better than nothing. I'm backlogged on hundreds of these improper redirects; fixing all the links as well would mean not having the time to fix what's actually wrong. (And BTW, I have fixed several thousands of such links, though not much recently.)

The choice, as I see it, is to direct the reader to the wrong article, or to a dab page. It's an obvious choice.

If I've screwed up, which you've alluded to but not linked to, by all means let me know and I'll clean it up. Or just revert me: misdirecting a few readers is less important than getting the rest of these done. — kwami (talk) 23:02, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Zuni. You left a link to Zuni instead of changing it to Zuni people. I fixed it already, but as it was you left the dab page without a link to the commonest intended meaning. That helps no-one. DuncanHill (talk) 23:24, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Darn. That was meant to be a helpful screw up. I'll try to improve the quality of my oversights. — kwami (talk) 00:06, 19 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

On this topic, please don't leave a redirect behind for the talk pages of these newly-created disambiguation pages. I have had to replace the redirect with the disambiguation project tag multiple times. Logan _Talk ^{Contributions} 21:01, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your comment, indeed there are more macro-gê language maps in: Category:Macro-Je languages

Ah, thanks. All added to the articles. — kwami (talk) 01:21, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I have changed the workings inside Template:IPA vowel chart, now visible in the sandbox. Could you give it a check? The trick is, that I use a subtemplate "Template:IPA vowel chart/vowelpair", which does the presentation & links for the pairs. -DePiep (talk) 03:48, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Looks fine to me. The only question I have goes for the original chart too: why do we have [e̞] but not [ø̞], [o̞], or [ɤ̞]? and why ‹e̞› instead of ‹ɛ̝›? — kwami (talk) 05:48, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The answer to that is simple: someone with "time and/or ambition" still has to bother to split these off from their respective close-mid vowel articles like [e̞] has been. As for the symbol, I think it's simply because ‹e̞› is more common. --JorisvS (talk) 11:22, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

First, we could put the symbols in there. But they should have a link to an article (through {{IPAsym}}). When there is no article (yet), linking to a sort of dab-page is imo not adding much wiki-wise. Now here's the new catch: the change now proposed in the sandbox ... does not allow for unlinked symbols ;-). Current links: [ø̞], [o̞] or [ɤ̞] -DePiep (talk) 12:44, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: copied the essence to Template talk:IPA vowel chart#Mid vowels. Sandbox now is into live template. -DePiep (talk) 13:46, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Linkfixes. No errors left. -DePiep (talk) 22:58, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you revert to the old and false information about kurdish peoples figure in turkey? Can't you face the truth that there are 20 million kurdish people in turkey as the article source I have given tell you too??

Here are the source: "There are perhaps up to 20 million Kurds in Turkey with a population of approximately 70 million."

Source: http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=sv&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=sv&tl=en&u=http://www.dn.se/nyheter/politik/kurder-besvikna-pa-eu

damn00 (talk) 16:04, 20 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, you did not give a source. You just said it's from a Swedish paper, but did not provide a link. Second, as we've told you, newspapers are not WP:reliable sources. Which source did the Swedish paper get that figure from? Find that source, and we'll be able to judge whether it's reliable or not.

(I have no idea if there are 10M Kurds in Turkey, or 20M, or 30M, but whichever figure we use, we need to be able to defend it against those who would challenge it.) — kwami (talk) 01:44, 21 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

For your contributions to Wikipedia and humanity in general, you are hereby granted the coveted Random Smiley Award.
(Explanation and Disclaimer)

♠TomasBat 00:43, 19 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! I like the 'random' part. Counterbalances the random trolls. — kwami (talk) 01:48, 21 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for uploading File:ChuShogiPromotions.png. I noticed that the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you did not create this file yourself, you will need to specify the owner of the copyright. If you obtained it from a website, please add a link to the website from which it was taken, together with a brief restatement of that website's terms of use of its content. However, if the copyright holder is a party unaffiliated from the website's publisher, that copyright should also be acknowledged.

If you have uploaded other files, consider verifying that you have specified sources for those files as well. You can find a list of files you have created in your upload log. Unsourced and untagged images may be deleted one week after they have been tagged per Wikipedia's criteria for speedy deletion, F4. If the image is copyrighted and non-free, the image will be deleted 48 hours after 13:09, 21 January 2011 (UTC) per speedy deletion criterion F7. If you have any questions or are in need of assistance please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Magog the Ogre (talk) 13:09, 21 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Added the info. — kwami (talk) 01:38, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In case you are on right now fellow Usonian, I have responded with the information you asked for at Talk:Press-up. Cute snake btw. AerobicFox (talk) 05:13, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Kwami, I'm afraid I accidentally overlooked your stated intent to close the Press-up WP:RM request. Please feel free to re-open it if you wish. All the best, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:13, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No problem. I was considering wider policy which I thought supported a move, but wanted to be sure I wasn't missing anything before I closed. I'll redo it. — kwami (talk) 03:41, 23 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Wrt this edit: is the text in the earlier version of the Hindi article just lost? For instance, that version had a section on writing systems, a section on literature, etc., which the current article doesn't: surely these sections make sense for an article on the language? Is it ok to just copy over those sections, or something? Regards, Shreevatsa (talk) 08:20, 24 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There was general agreement on the talk page that when people say "Hindi", they generally mean the national language of India, and not the various other varieties that also go under the name Hindi. There weren't many participants, though, so feel free to start a discussion if you think the redirect should be reversed. Or if you just want those sections merged into Standard Hindi or Hindi-Urdu, you can go ahead and do that too. The literature section could be split between them; the writing system is already covered. — kwami (talk) 08:51, 24 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) I wasn't arguing about reversing the redirect… I too think that when people say "Hindi", they mean the national language of India, however defined. I was just saying that the article Hindi (or whatever it redirects to) ought to contain (brief) text on how Hindi is written, literature in Hindi, etc. Such sections existed in the old article, and I was wondering if it's ok to start adding such sections to the current article — asking you because you've followed the discussion and are aware of the several articles on the subject, which I'm not. [Added after edit: Ah fine, thanks; I'll merge them sometime.] Regards, Shreevatsa (talk) 14:02, 24 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I moved the stub to MSH, and added a section header to HU. It would be nice if HU would introduce the Hindi and Urdu lit articles. — kwami (talk) 18:08, 24 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ali Pasha and his IPs seem hell bent on removing even the smallest traces of Serbo-Croatian on Croatian related articles. [1] -- ◅PRODUCER _(TALK) 16:59, 25 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

...and the nonsense continues with suspicious user Hammer of Habsburg [2] -- ◅PRODUCER _(TALK) 12:08, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I saw you have been really active lately and I clicked on over to your user page and was pretty impressed. Would you be interested in helping with the WP:Online_Ambassadors program? It's really a great opportunity to help university students become Wikipedia contributers. I hope you apply to become an ambassador, Sadads (talk) 23:44, 25 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the offer, but I'm afraid I won't have a reliable amount of time to devote to it. — kwami (talk) 08:39, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Our friend strikes again [3]. Would you kindly block him and/or semiprotect the article? Thanks. No such user (talk) 07:32, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No, I'm not going to block someone for something like that. I did warn him over edit warring. — kwami (talk) 08:40, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I see. Yeah, 3 years is a bit ridiculous for edit warring. Blocked. — kwami (talk) 09:09, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Kwami. The many edits you have made, -- [[Māori people|Māori]] -- are creating redirects because your article title changes were reverted. Moriori (talk) 00:20, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A ref to the Maori language or Maori culture should link to our articles on the Maori language or the Maori culture. They should not link to our article on the Maori people. Thus "Maori" should be a redirect; links to the redirect can be cleaned up later (and as I have been doing today), as that's not a big deal. — kwami (talk) 00:27, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You are doing this -----> [[Māori people|Māori]] but as there is no Māori people article you are creating a redirect from the articles to a page which is a redirect page. Moriori (talk) 00:40, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but the article should be at Maori people, in which case the links should be redirected. Internal redirects to not create any problem. Linking to the wrong article does. — kwami (talk) 00:41, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Kwamikagami. I notice that you do a lot of IPA fixing. I wondered if you could help with the Camille Paglia article? Seed of Azathoth (talk) 06:59, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, if you can tell me a bit more than just that the gee is silent. First syllable like pale or like pal? I assume that's also the syllable that's stressed, which would most likely make it either /ˈpeɪliə/ or /ˈpæliə/. — kwami (talk) 07:52, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's pronounced PaHleAH, with the stress on the H and AH. So it should be as in "pal" rather than "pale." Seed of Azathoth (talk) 15:16, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's the English pronunciation?? That would be odd indeed: /pɑːliˈɑː/, rhyming with hurrah. (And I don't understand how you could stress the H, unless you stress both a vowels, in which case it would be pronounced Pa-lee ah, with pa as in father. It wouldn't even be possible with the A's as in pal.) I'd want to see a ref or hear a recording before I'd be confident enough to put that in an article. — kwami (talk) 15:50, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Pa-lee ah" looks correct to me. The a definitely is not pronounced like the a in Sarah Palin's second name. Sorry if I'm not explaining it properly. Seed of Azathoth (talk) 16:03, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As in this video (0:20)? -DePiep (talk) 16:08, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That would be /ˈpɑːliə/, unless it sounds like Paul for those who make the cot-caught distinction, in which case it would be /ˈpɔːliə/ (which I believe Philadelphia does, and it didn't sound like Paul).

So, Azathoth, does it sound to you like either "Pa" plus -lia or "paw" plus -lia? Any one in particular? — kwami (talk) 16:18, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It sounds exactly like Pa plus lia to me; I don't hear a "paw" there. But listen to it and decide for yourself. Seed of Azathoth (talk) 16:22, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I pronounce them exactly the same, so I have to imagine what it would sound like if spoken by someone who doesn't say them the same, but that is the conclusion I came to. Which is /ˈpɑːliə/. — kwami (talk) 16:27, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

OK, so should I add that to the article? Seed of Azathoth (talk) 16:43, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sure. Just link it to the key with the {{IPA-en}} or {{pron-en}} template. — kwami (talk) 16:51, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Worth also adding the Italian pronunciation, which I think would be ['paʎa] or conceivably ['paʎja] (just two syllables in either case)? --Trovatore (talk) 20:58, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Does she ever use an Italian pronunciation? [ˈpaʎʎa], I suspect. — kwami (talk) 22:18, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The gemination of medial ʎ mentioned on the IPA for Italian page is news to me. But then I did live in the North.... --Trovatore (talk) 23:35, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is /ˈpɑːliə/, and definitely NOT /ˈpɔːliə/. And no, she does not affect an Italian accent.μηδείς (talk) 06:51, 31 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please seek consensus before carrying out potentially disruptive edits such as your move of Māori, and your change of the guideline at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people) in support of your position. You should be aware that an article which has existed at its current name for many years, and has a large number of links to it, should not be moved without a discussion. Despite this, you moved it without such discussion, and proceeded to change a substantial number of links, even after your move had been reverted (not by me). Your explanation was that you were not aware that the move had been reverted, although you were advised on your talk page. I note that you did stop making such redirects one you replied to the advisor.

Your explanation for the move was "vs. language", and later said on the talk page it was "per the MOS for ethnicity vs. language", and still later "Sorry, not the MOS, but naming conventions", but the guideline for language naming conventions appears to be fully adhered to for Māori language. It would appear that you did not have the MoS justification for the move that you thought you had.

You changed Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people), again without any attempt to seek consensus, and despite that the guideline applies to individual people rather than groups. When I pointed out that your edit was inappropriate, you decided to remove my edit twice, rather than to address the issue. You also gave me a block warning for pointing this out.

I think your edits on this issue are unbecoming of an admin. I do not think you are trying to harm the wiki, but you appear to have lost touch with Wikipedia's principles.-gadfium 07:58, 31 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Gadfium, you've been here since 2004, so I'm rather puzzled that you are so unfamiliar with the way things work here. Inadvertently or not, you're also misrepresenting the situation.

As for discussion before editing, read WP:BOLD. Summary: make a major edit; if someone reverts it, discuss. That's exactly what happened here. BOLD was created so that edits don't become impossible because every correction has to go through committee before being implemented. I mean, look at the nonsense brewed up in this case: you can't move a page if that would leave redirects, but you can't fix redirects without moving the page.

I did not change the naming conventions to support my edit. The convention already existed, and has consensus. What I changed had to do with the use of the word "tribe", which is irrelevant to this case.

As for the guideline being in the wrong place, you have a point, but AFAIK the right place does not exist. Again, BOLD. But you don't deface pages with personal comments. I find it hard to believe that you've been here 7 years and don't know that's what the talk page is for. Of course I warned you for that, and especially for edit warring over it: that's the kind of behaviour that will get you blocked. (And no, that's not a threat. I wouldn't do it myself.)

Anyway, I think I've had enough with Māori. I'm taking it off my watchlist. The people there are just too weird.

— kwami (talk) 08:14, 31 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps you should actually read Wikipedia:BOLD, and specifically the section Wikipedia:BOLD#...but please be careful. You moved the page Māori but according to your subsequent edits you had no idea of the policy behind the move. My point was that you should have used the talk page to discuss your move and your subsequent attempt to modify the guideline, but you threaten me with a block for pointing this out. I suggest that you remove your post to that page if you agree that the talk page is more appropriate.-gadfium 08:29, 31 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps you should read it a little more carefully yourself. The caution is for disruptive edits, like deleting a template that transcludes to hundreds of articles. My edit disrupted nothing important: all it did was create links to a dab page, which can be taken care of easily enough, and which don't cause any real inconvenience, and which of course could be easily reverted, as it was.

Do I really need to say this a third time? I didn't threaten you with a block, I warned you that disruptive behaviour may get you blocked, which is true enough and which you still don't seem to understand. (If you had kept it up, I would have requested to have you blocked, and it would have been up to someone else to determine whether you deserved it.) And it wasn't because you disagreed with me, or because you pointed out something that enraged me, or because I'm part of some government conspiracy that involves black helicopters, but because you edit warred to disrupt the page. Do you honestly not understand that signing comments in articles, guidelines, & the like is not acceptable? And I should move which post to the talk page? I didn't make a post: you do understand the different between editing a page and commenting on it, don't you?

Anyway, I feel like I'm talking to a wall. I've never encountered anyone who refused to understand the basics of editing here like this, certainly not someone who's been here as long as you have. So, unless you have something constructive to say, please stop. — kwami (talk) 08:39, 31 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I would love to stop. Please retract your edit to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people) and seek consensus first. If it is not approriate for me to post to a Wikipedia namespace page, why is it appropriate for you? Posting disagreements to article namespace is not appropriate, but you seem not to understand the difference in namespace. Telling me that you would have requested another editor block me rather than doing so yourself is so reassuring.-gadfium 08:50, 31 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, you clearly don't understand the difference between editing a page and commenting on it. The difference between articles (mainspace or not) and their talk pages is one of the fundamental concepts of any wiki. I'm posting the 'welcome' links on your talk page. Please don't take that as an insult: there is some good material in there, including some that may have changed since the last time you took a look at it, or perhaps some that didn't make sense at the time, and since you've been here since 2004, it's quite possible no-one ever posted it on your talk page, since you weren't a newbie when it was created. — kwami (talk) 09:08, 31 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There are too many Igbo subdivisions to list right now. Some are tribes (e.g Izzi), some are remnants of old states (e.g Aro), some are citizens of a county (e.g Onicha), some are 'clans' and families (e.g Ubani), others are village groups (e.g Ngwa). The most simplified divisions are seen through the language dialects which the articles relating to this topic use. All the indicated groups use 'Igbo' in one way or another to identify themselves and their community, this is usually secondary to their subgroups identity. All of them have a strong underlying Igbo culture. Ukabia - talk 19:32, 31 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Ukabia. I'll keep a lookout for any references. — kwami (talk) 21:44, 31 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I noticed that recently you moved some guarani related articles for an appropriate naming without diacritic, I also tried to move Guaraní mythology to Guarani mythology (without diacritic), but I couldn't do it because a bot added some categories on the redirect page. Could you delete that redirect to make way for move? That word only has diacritic in the Spanish orthography, but not in the own Guarani writing system, neither according to Portuguese or English orthographic rules (Portuguese words ending with i or u mark stress on the last syllable), we should not use the Spanish orthography in the English Wikipedia.--Luizdl (talk) 00:28, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Moved. — kwami (talk) 00:37, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for bothering you again, but could you please do the same with Guaraní Aquifer?--Luizdl (talk) 00:39, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Luizdl (talk) 01:11, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If you really wish to save time, be careful when piping for a term (i.e. "Putonghua") that already is a re-direct to our little battleground article, such as this edit. Just some advice --HXL's Roundtable, and Record 03:08, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, if we ever split that off as a separate article, it might be good to have a direct link. My AWB script isn't that sophisticated. — kwami (talk) 03:11, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Ever"? I see little reason to split it off, as "Putonghua" largely refers to the standard...i.e. this summer when I heard the term vs. Shandong dialect, which to say doesn't really exist as far as I have read --HXL's Roundtable, and Record 03:16, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

But if we think we're never going to split it off, why bother with the redirect? What's wrong with piping? — kwami (talk) 03:19, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing particularly wrong, but we are advised not to pipe when the re-direct exists. Whatever. Simply a matter of personal view. I am simply advising you to save time if you can, but apparently your AWB script won't be better for you. --HXL's Roundtable, and Record 03:22, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, but that guideline is there because we might want to split the rd off as a separate article, which probably won't happen here. (That is why I'm piping 'Standard Cantonese' in the links: if the Cantonese page ever moves again, it will be useful to have links to redirects.) — kwami (talk) 03:27, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

But note I am not commenting on Cantonese. Which reminds me that speakers may not necessarily speak "Standard Cantonese", but another dialect of the entire language/variety, which, in that case, requires linking to the article on Yue. --HXL's Roundtable, and Record 03:29, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

True. I've changed it to Yue where I've noticed that. — kwami (talk) 03:30, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

On a side note. (Apart from translation), Do you have the knowledge necessary to help me with the article I started on the Chengdu dialect, and in the future the Chongqing dialect? --HXL's Roundtable, and Record 03:33, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately no. I don't even have sources on those any more, not that they'd be anything you don't have anyway. — kwami (talk) 03:37, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

See if you can't find A Government phonology Analysis of Chongqing Mandarin Chinese by Hayden Windrow. That might be helpful. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 03:43, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Also this thought of mine only emerged a couple of days ago, but you could also consider replacing "Standard Mandarin" with "Putonghua". I have already done so on the PRC page, because that is what the Government officially says, and since so many non-Mandarin dialects are written in the City_hua form anyway, replacing with "Putonghua" shouldn't hurt in many cases. --HXL's Roundtable, and Record 02:36, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't read all of that, but the issue is a simple one: if you write something that is challenged, it's up to you to provide the citations to demonstrate it. It really doesn't matter what you know, because we can't judge your competence. All we can judge the quality of your references.

But in the end you're right: if I doubt extraordinary claims that you present without evidence, it can only mean that I'm a racist. There's no other possible explanation. — kwami (talk) 07:02, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Cultures in standard cross-cultural sample has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Uyvsdi (talk) 07:08, 1 February 2011 (UTC)Uyvsdi[reply]

Well, I see you've resumed your mass undiscussed moves. I notice most of these are North American tribes, many of which seem primary over the languages. Considering how controversial these moves have proven, I would have thought you would start discussions before plowing ahead. But you aren't, so I'm asking you to stop, and start using WP:RM first. Otherwise, I'm going to have to start a report at WP:ANI, because I just don't see any other option. You've got one goal in sight, and are ignoring everything else to achieve it, to the detriment of the encyclopedia. --JaGa^talk 21:37, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If you don't like a move, revert it. 90% are uncontroversial, and don't cause any inconvenience. And if you think most of them are North American, you haven't been paying attention. I'm not going to post a request and wait a week for all of these articles when it's so easy to revert per WP:BOLD. — kwami (talk) 21:39, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, forget it. I'm tired of dealing with this. Feel free to restructure WP any way you want, although I'm really interested in the 90% remark. If you were a responsible editor, you'd start a discussion for that 10% based on your new-found knowledge of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. But I see your philosophy is to make drastic changes and let other people clean up after you - not just dablinks, but also ill-chosen pagemoves. Well, OK. That's how it will be then. --JaGa^talk 21:57, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I can't predict which 10% some unknown editor might object to. You're saying that a responsible editor would never make an edit that anyone else would modify. If I could do that, we would never need discussion, because I could determine consensus on my own. Hardly how things work in the real world. — kwami (talk) 22:52, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Telling us to undo the moves is patronising and unhelpful. As you would know if you had any knowledge of pagemoves, we can't do them without admin tools when there have been subsequent edits to the original title page. DuncanHill (talk) 22:06, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Most of the time there haven't been, so you can undo them. And it's hardly patronizing, it's simply following basic WP guidelines like WP:BOLD. — kwami (talk) 22:52, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I do appreciate that you have never previously been wrong about anything at all (to judge from your responses to various editors on this page), but please do try to open your mind to the possibility that you are wrong about pagemoves and dabbing. You certainly are doing nothing at all to promote a collaborative atmosphere, rather the opposite. DuncanHill (talk) 23:18, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm wrong all the time, of course. I just can't predict when I'll be wrong. If I could, I'd never be wrong. I can't predict which page moves will prove contentious. Some I think will be, and which I do start discussions for, turn out not to be, and some I assume will be unproblematic cause people to go ballistic. But moving a page to a more specific name is not disruptive, so it doesn't matter: if the move is a problem, undo it, just like any other edit on WP. — kwami (talk) 23:23, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• I intend to undo any and all moves/changes you make to create dabpages from now on, because you have caused significant disruption to other editors by your actions in this area. It would be easier for everyone if you simply refrained from editing in this area, or even better entered into discussions bout the changes you want to make, but as you have repeatedly refused to do either of these things, I am left with no alternative. DuncanHill (talk) 23:30, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This isn't even about creating dab pages. That's not what JaGa was complaining about, and not what I've been doing today. Also, following people around undoing moves which are not problematic is itself disruptive. If you undo moves, it needs to be because the move is undesirable, not because you have a personal problem with the editor. — kwami (talk) 23:34, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have a problem with your edits. You have been repeatedly asked to desist, and you have repeatedly been asked to discuss first rather than going ahead with vast numbers of moves. You have repeatedly refused to do either. DuncanHill (talk) 23:37, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm following WP guidelines. If you don't like it, get the guidelines changed. A few have proven contentious, and those have generally been reverted. The rest aren't bothering anybody, so what's your problem with them?

If I had a problem with some of your edits, and demanded that you clear everything you wanted to do before you did it, would you comply? But if you can convince the WP community that this is the way to do things around here, I will go along. — kwami (talk) 23:43, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oh forget it - I was just now trying to fix the mess you made of Blackfoot, but the trail of moves and redirects is too confusing. When you leave histories that make it hard for anyone to understand just what you were trying to do, you make it impossible for anyone to "just undo" you - and you make it much harder for the editors who actually do want correct links instead of dablinks. There's a whole fucking wikiproject of people who actually enjoy fixing dablinks, but instead of engaging with us and getting our help you seem intent on antagonising and exasperating us as much as you possible can. DuncanHill (talk) 00:04, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that must be the motivation: antagonizing a wikiproject I wasn't aware existed.

Blackfoot is a mess, that's for sure. We had two articles, 'Blackfoot' and 'Blackfeet', on different topics, and the links to them had little to do with which was which, so it's completely screwed up. You won't find many like that, though, and anyway, it was screwed up before I got to it. Yeah, I'm trying to fix it too, but it's a headache. (Oh forget it. It's generally impossible to tell which 'Blackfeet' are intended. Linking to the dab page may be the best bet.) — kwami (talk) 00:09, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well, you have been referred to the wikiproject before, so unless you deliberately weren't reading the comments on this page, you should have been aware of it by now. You woulf also have found out about it by looking at the talk pages of many dab pages, which have a nice template linking to it. Or, indeed, by reading the guidelines about dabbing, which I do elieve mention the project. DuncanHill (talk) 00:49, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, fair enough. — kwami (talk) 00:51, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• I've asked at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America for help fixing the incoming links to Blackfoot. I found out about the wikiproject by looking at Talk:Blackfoot. I've also added the dab project template to talk:Blackfoot. DuncanHill (talk) 01:01, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• • I've also made this edit to Talk:Blackfeet. It is rather unhelpful for the talk page to be redirected to a different article than the main page attached to it. DuncanHill (talk) 01:06, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Seriously, Kwami, don't you see what you're doing? WP:BOLD wasn't written so you could do a half-assed job and say "meh, if I did something wrong, someone else will fix it". It's intended as an encouragement for new, uncertain editors, not administrators with over 100,000 edits. You're just hiding behind BOLD to justify lazy edits.

Sure, we'll fix your screw-ups when we find them. But we won't find all of them, so some mistakes will sit around indefinitely. How does that improve the wiki? Do it right the first time. Stop using WP:BOLD to justify the easy way out; do due diligence, think about the changes you're making, make sure another disambig doesn't already exist, make sure you format your disambig properly, apply WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and if you aren't 100% certain put it at WP:RM. It may take longer but it will avoid some of the messes you've been piling up of late. --JaGa^talk 04:47, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What makes you think I'd find all of them? That's the thing with screw-ups: If I noticed them, I wouldn't make them. And the only mess I've been notified of is that a page move failed to carry the talk page along with it (happens occasionally, I still don't know why), and that I fixed, not you. — kwami (talk) 06:19, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I fixed several talk pages which your move-fest left pointing in the wrong direction, you only fixed the one that you had made too much of a mess of for me to do - and then only after it was pointed out to you, as you hadn't bothered to check your moves after making them. And as for "that's the thing with screw ups" - if you were more willing to discuss changes first and ask for help, you'd be less likely to make them. DuncanHill (talk) 11:04, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As I said, I forgot that the talk pages don't always move as they're supposed to. If you had told me, I would've been happy to do it myself. — kwami (talk) 11:07, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Talk:Blackfoot Confederacy now this is a real mess - it currently redirects to Talk:Blackfoot, but there is an article at Blackfoot Confederacy. Is there any content that should be at Talk:Blackfoot Confederacy? The history of pagemoves and redirects is far too confusing for me to work out, though I suspect that the content currently at Talk:Blackfoot is what should be at Talk:Blackfoot Confederacy. DuncanHill (talk) 01:16, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I forget that the talk pages sometimes don't follow their articles. I'll take care of it. — kwami (talk) 01:20, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Your suspicion was correct. That should do it. — kwami (talk) 01:26, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. DuncanHill (talk) 01:54, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Your usual problem with the talk page. Please fix. DuncanHill (talk) 12:20, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No, not a usual problem: there are two talk pages for one article. Either one can be left on a redirect, or one needs to be archived. But agreed that it should be addressed. — kwami (talk) 12:31, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A merge would be in order. DuncanHill (talk) 12:35, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Done. — kwami (talk) 12:43, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please do not leave the talk pages of your newly-created dab pages as redirects to the talk page of wherever you moved the article content. The talk page of a dab page should be tagged with {{tl:WikiProject Disambiguation}}. See, for example, Talk:Haida. DuncanHill (talk) 12:28, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Got it. — kwami (talk) 12:31, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've asked if anyone could give you a masterclass on moving talkpages properly, as it does seem to be causing you difficulty. DuncanHill (talk) 12:35, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Usually they move without a problem; I'm unclear why that sometimes fails. Usually when a talk page can't move automatically there's some notification of the fact. — kwami (talk) 12:42, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Some editors like to check after making a pagemove to see if the talk page has moved too. DuncanHill (talk) 12:46, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Just a comment about some of your moves of standalone indigenous names to "+people"....in some cases this will be redundant....I'm not actually sure what "Haida" means in the Haida language, it could include the meaning "people". Nuu-chah-nulth doesn't (it means "along the outside (of Vancouver Island) and in its proper state in that language would have the -aht suffice, meaning "people". Kwakwaka'wakw already implies "people" as it means "speakers of Kwak'wala". But names like Nlaka'pamux, St'at'imc, Skwxwu7mesh and Secwepemc and Tahltan and Tsilhqot'in already include morphemes meaning "people", likewise Skokomish and Duwamish (-mesh, -mish, -imc, -emc in Salishan, -tan and -t'in in Athapaskan are all "people" suffixes). Not that English convention doesn't habitually attach "people" to these names....so far "we" have made a point (among NorthAmNative members) of not adding them; the convention so far has been to use the native name for the ethno article, the anglo name, more often than not (with some exceptions, such as St'at'imc Nation vs Lillooet Tribal Council, which are both official names for the same body), are used for the government names, and since...someone...came along, also for their languages e.g. Lillooet language instead of St'at'imcets. We really need to come up with a NativeMOS guideline, however....hopefully you noticed the CfR about "Native American" categories which shouldn't be called that...(in the Feb 1 CfDs).Skookum1 (talk) 18:47, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We already have a Wikipedia policy for naming these entities--common English usage per WP:NCON. Since common English usage is Lillooet for the language (at least), that is the name that should be retained for the article. --Taivo (talk) 19:56, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A policy of "X" for the people and "X language" for the language would be fine, even if that means that Amerindian languages are treated differently than Eurasian langs. Is there a discussion where that was contemplated? We do generally have the convention of not appending 'people' or 'language' to names which are used for specifically one or the other.

Whether or not X̣ayda contains the meaning of 'people' in Haida, Haida doesn't in English.

One reason for moving is that links are commonly made blindly, and if "X" is a dab page, all future blind links would end up there, where they belong. Of course, in the case of America that may well be an acceptable trade-off. — kwami (talk) 21:21, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Pre-main star" and "Post-World War II" and similar things do NOT warrant an ndash by any stretch of the imagination. It's gonna take a while to clean up your mess. Please stop it now. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 07:06, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You change the guideline, and then berate me for following it? Screw you. — kwami (talk) 09:04, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, but what you're doing with these dashes is just grammatically wrong. Please stop. Johnlp (talk) 10:29, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

How is it wrong? Check the Chicago Manual of Style or any of many many others: the CMOS even gives "pre–World War II" (or is it "post–World War II"?) as an example. En dashes for prefixing open compounds has been standard for a century or more. — kwami (talk) 10:34, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid I've worked in these areas for the best part of 50 years: US usage of dashes rather than hyphens is different, but it is not a world standard. In most of the rest of the world, a dash would be used only to imply an extent or connection between two items, as in 1904–05, where the dash might be replaced by the word "to", and not the simple joining of two words to form a compound or to add a prefix. To impose a US style on articles written outside the US and with no US connection is not right. Johnlp (talk) 10:45, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's hardly the same as being "grammatically wrong", as you put it. I was under the impression that it wasn't just a US standard. However, if it is, you might want to provide some refs for the MOS discussion.

(How would they handle "the anti-conscription–pro-conscription debate" is the UK?) — kwami (talk) 10:49, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"The anti/pro conscription debate", or even better "the conscription debate". DuncanHill (talk) 13:40, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

On second thoughts, "the pro/anti" rather than "anti/pro". For always wants to come before against in my experience. DuncanHill (talk) 14:29, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, but if someone said "the anti-conscription–pro-conscription debate", and you were transcribing it, how would you punctuate it? — kwami (talk) 14:01, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"The anti-conscription/pro-conscription debate". DuncanHill (talk) 14:21, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. That makes sense. — kwami (talk) 14:24, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the relevant sections from the Oxford University Press style guide, as set down in the Oxford Writers' Dictionary.

Dashes:

(a) The en rule (–) is used:

1. To join pairs wherever movement or tension, rather than co-operation or unity (for which use hyphen) is felt, e.g. ‘1914–18 war’ (but ‘from 1914 to 1918’), ‘current–voltage characteristic’, ‘the Fischer–Spassky match’, ‘the London–Horsham–Brighton route’, ‘the Marxist–Trotskyite split’ (but ‘the Marxist-Leninist position’ (hyphen)). Note also ‘Franco-Prussian War’ (hyphen, because ‘Franco-‘ is a prefix which cannot stand alone).

2. For joint authors (hyphen would lead to confusion with a single double-barrelled name), e.g. ‘the Lloyd–Jones hypothesis’ (two men), ‘the Lloyd-Jones hypothesis’ (one man), ‘the Lloyd-Jones–Scargill talks’ (two men).

[There are other sections about the use of em dashes and two-em dashes, which OUP uses even more sparingly, mostly to indicate omitted or repeated text in, for example, bibliographies.]

Hyphen:

This is used:

1. To join two or more words so as to form a single expression, e.g. ear-ring, get-at-able, and words having a syntactical relationship which form a compound, as weight-carrying (objective), punch-drunk (instrumental); and in a compound used attributively, to clarify the unification of the sense, e.g. a blood-red hand, the well-known man, but prettily furnished rooms, the man is well known (predicative).

2. To join a prefix to a proper name, e.g. anti-Darwinian.

3. To prevent misconceptions by linking words, e.g. a poor-rate collection, a poor rate-collection.

4. To prevent misconceptions by separating a prefix from the main word, e.g. recover, re-cover (an umbrella); (a footballer) resigns, re-signs.

5. To separate two similar consonant or vowel sounds in a word, as a help to understanding and pronunciation, e.g. sword-dance, Ross-shire...

6. To represent a common second element in all but the last word of a list, e.g. two-, three- or fourfold.

As usual with OUP thoroughness/pedantry, it also has specific styles for particular words: so in the dictionary part it specifies "pre-war" and "post-war" with hyphens and no capitals (though if the "War" was capitalised, it would be a hyphen under the second point of the "hyphen" section quoted above anyway). I'd be pretty confident other UK/Australian/Indian style guides would be similar on this: with the "post-war" example, they'd if anything tend to have no hyphen in preference to any en dash, which I have simply never seen in standard usage except under the conditions outlined above. Feel free to transplant this into the MOS discussion if you want.

For what it's worth, what User:DuncanHill writes above makes perfect sense to me: I'd never use an en dash in these circumstances, but I just might use an oblique. Johnlp (talk) 21:44, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for that. I've found some variation in US style guides: some only list these functions, some only list the compounded compound type (generally these are the more basic or introductory guides), and some list both. I found an Oxford guide that described the compounded compound usage as well, but it may have been intended for the US.

BTW, "pre-war" and "post-war" are US usage too: the en dash only comes in with open compounds, "pre–World War" and "post–World War", to show that we're talking about before/after the war, and not before/after the world. — kwami (talk) 21:57, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps on this side of the Atlantic we rely a little more on the commonsense of the reader! Johnlp (talk) 22:08, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe! ;)

But with more obscure, technical, or ad hoc compounds, parsing can get difficult without some way of disambiguating. In speech, prosody takes care of it, so people may use spoken expressions that writing-style guides would advise against.

(Personally, I find it easy to parse the scope of a prefix if it isn't capitalized and the open-compound stem is, but when everything is capitalized I've sometimes found myself puzzled. Can't think of a good example offhand, though.) — kwami (talk) 22:14, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please stop this now. This is not English, not helpful to the encyclopedia. These are rules of thumb; not to be followed blindly against usage - as you are doing. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:25, 5 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm reverting that (Comox-Strathcona Regional District); the reason it wasn't included in the RM (and RM2) at Talk:Alberni-Clayoquot Regional District is because it was already properly hyphenated, as per all sources and because it's a hyphenated name. I thought you were one of the good guys, dude.Skookum1 (talk) 10:39, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, if I screwed up, sorry. I was going on the other compound BC districts. If they aren't a valid comparison, then revert it, or ask me and I'll revert it. Don't have a cow, man!

I wasn't aware of that discussion, but many of the participants seem to have no idea what they're talking about. They're using govt web pages as a source? Ridiculous: html punctuation is grossly simplified and should not be used as a typographic guide. — kwami (talk) 10:42, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

BCGNIS and CGNDB are records of official names, they're not merely html; they also use French characters, and often special FN characters. Hansard, which is typeset (and on-line, reproduced according to the style guides of the Provincial Secretary - or Speaker of the House, not sure which - and the Queen's Printer - use the hyphen, as do the publications (including PDFs) of both the provincial government and the regional districts themselves (the RDs are "creatures" of the provincial tier of government, not federal btw), use the hyphen. They're also all geographic proper names, not "and/or" constructions as they people who really don't know what they're talking about averred in the first RM (note the support tally in the 2nd one), and as proper names and being hyphenated, they should remain hyphenated (and should never have been dashed just because some typography-happy twit some countries, even oceans away, decided that they were "and" constructions, which they're most definitely not. I just went through 10-12 pages of the move log to revert it, and can't find it. The reason I'm testy about this is because it was from the Alberni-Clayoquot RM that the Poland-Lithuania one in all its inanity and arrogance and time-consuming nonsense grew, and the related MOS debates. "Consensus" of the uninformed is just that; uninformed; that WP:MOSFOLLOW was ignored throughout is most aggravating; using the excuse, as you have again here, that they're "only" HTML discounts the - gee, what do you know - the possibility that government systems people (BC Systems, which sets standards for BC government websites, and BCGNIS itself) were typographical imbeciles incapable of being sophisticated like holier-than-thou MOSites in Britain or wherever the lot of them came from; they're hyphenated names just like Henley-on-Thames or Baden-Baden; someone also tried to change provincial park names recently, for the same bad reason, but they also are mandated by legislation, typeset legislation (available variously online in PDF and in HTML) and in all government publications as hyphenated. One dash-happy twit said "we don't do official names, what we do is typography" - which is a crock of shit.Skookum1 (talk) 10:53, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well, those sound like good refs. There's a difference between attributive usage (X-Y Z) and not-attributives like the MOS example of Guinea-Bissau, but if there are no examples of professionally typeset publications which use en dashes in these names, then I concur that we shouldn't use them based solely on a superficial reading of the style guides.

There is one I pointed out, though, where do I think the en dash should be retained ("Regional District of Fraser-Fort George"), because using a hyphen produces a misparsing of the name: it makes it look as if "Fraser-Fort" is an element of the name. The same is true of "Ed Bird-Estella Lakes Provincial Park"; that looks as though it's named after some guy named "Ed Bird-Estella". That, of course, is regardless of whether the other names should be hyphenated. — kwami (talk) 11:09, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

that's a garbage argument, based in some notion that your deconstruction of a proper name has anything to do with reality and with MOSFOLLOW or CANMOS or COMMONNAME. Fully-capitalized names are proper names and when parts of them are hyphenated, they're still proper names. Unless as a linguist you somehow are going to claim that "Lakes" is a name all by itself and not connected to either the word before it or the word after. You may know your IPA but you clearly have no regard at all for normal syntax or with what is used by the local govenrment which established these names. Here is a link to the Ministry of Forests Library search window which includes links to other government libraries, and also will search the whole of the BC Govt database, go look for regional districts, and for that park, and limit it to Hansard (which is typeset) and PDFs and DOCs (which are typeset); if you want write the Queen's Printer in Victoria, or call up BC Systems, and tell them you know better than they do. You're rattling on about nosense and it's really really disruptive; we were finally getting close to having the proper usage restored, and you had to come in and play spoiler. someone piss in your cornflakes or what?? You don't know better than the sources, or someone actually from the place you're passing judgement on what's best for us "because Wikipedia knows best" etc...typography is given WP:UNDUE weight over reality in Wikipedia, far too much, and by creating new paradigms you are re-inventing reality rather than reflecting it. I'm shocked at your behaviour, and your asinine arguments over this. I really don't know what's come over you, frankly.....Skookum1 (talk) 11:21, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's 3:22 am in my timezone (PST) and I would have been in bed an hour ago if not for your friggin' nonsense.....what a waste of time Wikipedia is turning into because of inane arguments by ill-informed and pretentious people!!.Skookum1 (talk) 11:22, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, here I am agreeing with you apart from one remaining concern, and again you fly off the handle. Come back after you get some sleep.

(Speaking of which, I should go to bed myself.) — kwami (talk) 11:24, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I noticed you moved An Post–Sean Kelly on the basis of WP:ENDASH. On a previous occasion, it was decided that cycling team names don't meet the requirements of WP:ENDASH - see the discussion here. Thanks, Severo^TC 12:11, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This wasn't a case of 'disjunction' vs 'conjunction' (an unfortunate choice of words), or, more relevantly, a junction of two names as opposed to a single hyphenated name, but due to the spaces in the names: An Post–Sean Kelly means [An Post]+[Sean Kelly], which is what we intend, whereas An Post-Sean Kelly would suggest a single person with a middle name of "Post-Sean". (Well, not too hard to figure out, but it makes it difficult to read, which we don't want.)

A lot of the linking articles also used hyphens with spaces, which is just a quick substitute for en dashes.

Anyway, I've gone through almost all of the links, so I might as well finish up for consistency; they can be reversed if the article is. — kwami (talk) 12:20, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This is a genuine problem but simply replacing a hyphen with an endash does not solve it. Some people will accept An-Post–Sean-Kelly with two different marks; but that is only acceptable in some forms of English. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:03, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, AFAIK it does solve it. Dashes work the same for open compounds as they do for hyphenated compounds. Also, AFAIK there's general agreement on not hyphenating proper names for things like "An-Post–Sean-Kelly". — kwami (talk) 21:03, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't matter whether you want to call it a sandbox page or an old article; either way, it doesn't belong in articlespace. If you don't want it in your own userspace, then perhaps you can find a WikiProject that will adopt it — but it has to be kept out of articlespace regardless. If it's left in articlespace, then it'll merely get redirected back to the parent article, because we don't keep multiple forks of one article in active production and no page can ever, ever be left sitting in articlespace without a content category on it. Bearcat (talk) 03:31, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So what do we do with article history we don't want to delete, but can't merge?

It certainly doesn't belong on my user page. — kwami (talk) 07:16, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I see that you have been moving many pages to a hyphenated form. This is not appropriate. This webpage (PubMed) lists medical journal articles with "small-cell carcinoma" in the title. You will see that the overwhelming majority are not hyphenated. Similarly for basal cell carcinoma. Axl ¤ [Talk] 10:35, 5 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but WP is a reference work, not a journal. Medical journals assume that their readers know the terms, and in such cases hyphens tend to be dropped. Reference works cannot assume that, and so need to be precise; you'll notice that among reference works, hyphens are much more common. One of the primary concerns here is that we not rely overmuch on jargon, and logical hyphenation is one small step in doing that. (Similarly, our guidelines specify that we use logical punctuation with quotations, even if that contradicts the national style the article is written in.) — kwami (talk) 10:38, 5 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am taking this issue to WikiProject Medicine. Please comment there. Axl ¤ [Talk] 10:52, 5 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A number of us request that you move these terms back. The hyphens do not look good. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 01:55, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Looking good" is not the point: a huge number of reliable sources use logical hyphenation, and this helps our readers. These terms are difficult to read without hyphenation unless you are already familiar with the subject, and we need to assume that our readers are not familiar with it. Even COMMONNAME states that when several names are in use by RSs, we need to consider clarity and precision, not just percentages. — kwami (talk) 02:02, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If you think you're going to carry out your own vendetta against WP's established style, think carefully before proceeding. It will cause a lot of trouble if you continue. Tony (talk) 12:09, 5 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't. This is established style: precision, as befitting a reference work. We should say what we mean, not what only initiates to the field will understand us to mean. Besides, the en-dash thing is up for discussion, and I haven't been doing anything with it while that's proceeding. — kwami (talk) 12:39, 5 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to know how you can make so accurate pronunciation guides. Especially I would like to know how you can tell when the vowels /ɨ/ and /ʉ/ should be used, as most dictionaries don’t include them in their pronunciation guides. I understand that these two vowels are not used in all dialects of English including American, but are nevertheless recommended to be used in Wikipedia’s pronunciation guides to make them more universal. An example of a pronunciation guide including the /ɨ/ vowel can be found in for example the article of the Adriatic Sea /ˌeɪdriˈætɨk/.

Thank you for answering in advance.

Nxghzt (talk) 14:02, 5 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Related, just now: Wikipedia_talk:Canadian_Wikipedians'_notice_board#CanEng_IPA.2Flinguist.28s.29_needed.Skookum1 (talk) 19:06, 5 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nxghzt, there's certainly some variation in the transcriptions, and sometimes it's a judgement call. Some dictionaries would mark the i in -ic with secondary stress if it weren't reduced, so the lack of a stress mark indicates it's reduced /ɨ/. Similarly, an American dictionary which marks final /i/ with secondary stress may correspond to a British dictionary with /iː/, while American final /i/ without stress may correspond to British final /ɪ/. But usage of 2ary stress to mark unreduced vowels in American dictionaries seems to be somewhat sporadic. Also, if an Australian dictionary has /ə/, then it's clearly a reduced vowel and should be /ɨ/ rather than /ɪ/ (as in the 'California' example you had). This might be something we need to hash out more explicitly.

Sookum, I answered your post there. I'm afraid it turned into a bit of an essay, and even so I'm not sure I gave my opinion (and what I've seen across thousands of articles) on all of your concerns rather than on peripheral issues that often come up in such discussions, but which you might not have intended. — kwami (talk) 22:55, 5 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A couple of points:

• "Not necessary to include" does not mean "necessary to exclude". I seen nothing in WP:NOT that would apply directly here.
• "Fix" does not mean "remove", and so an edit summary of "Fix IPA" is directly misleading when applied to an edit which removes the IPA outright. You did this twice ([4], [5]). Please read Wikipedia:Edit summary carefully; it contains a number of salient suggestions.

Perhaps your arguments would be better received if you gave some details. If you wish to assert that the source (the OED, of all things) has been misinterpreted, then you need to provide some details in order to be taken seriously. In this instance, the source seems pretty straightforward. I trust you will revert your edits and replace a perfectly valid piece of well-cited information that was needlessly removed. --Stemonitis (talk) 09:23, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, WP is not a dictionary. We don't include pronunciations of everyday words such as this. Second, while the OED pronunciation is fine, it uses a different pronunciation key than you linked to. E.g. your British pronunciation included an undefined vowel, one different from the CAT vowel; the reasonable assumption would be that it's the FATHER vowel, which it is not. Also, there is no difference between the UK and US pronunciations apart from accent, so it is misleading to give them separately as if they were different. If you really need to give a pronunciation, you can use what my copy of the OED has, /ˈmætək/.

As for the edit summary, I'm scanning 12,000 articles. Usually they only require a minor touchup, but occasionally I delete incorrect pronunciations when they are unnecessary. If I were to change the summary for that, I'd likely forget to change it back, and tag a hundred minor corrections as deletions. — kwami (talk) 09:30, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NOT does not specifically exclude pronunciations. Wikipedia is not paper, and does not have limited space. The pronunciations I included were far down the article in a specific etymology section, not in the lead, so their presence cannot be considered distracting. "Mattock" is not such an everyday word for most people; there could reasonably be doubts about pronunciation (stress on the second syllable, perhaps?), and giving only a single IPA representation would be to bias the article towards either British English or American English. What reason do you have, other than a dogmatic assertion that "we don't include...", to believe that their presence is in any way harmful? Since you have a correct version, why not simply include that, rather than deleting them?

Number of edits does not excuse misleading edit summaries. If you cannot keep up with your rate of editing, then you should probably slow down to a level where you can give meaningful edit summaries. --Stemonitis (talk) 09:51, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No, giving a single transcription is less biased. You exclude everyone but Brits and Yanks; the single transcription includes nearly everyone. (Well, maybe not Scots.)

As for WP:NOT, it is frequently cited to remove pronunciations that can be found in a small dictionary. But it's not the pron so much as the fact that it was wrong. — kwami (talk) 10:06, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If it's wrong and you have a version that is not wrong (as you profess to have), replace the wrong version with the right one! Do not simply remove it. And no, providing transcriptions in the two major variants of English is pretty inclusive; including only one is by definition less inclusive. Regardless of what WP:NOT is frequently purported to mean, it does not appear to actually contain anything of relevance here. I see no reason not to include a pronunciation for an unfamiliar word, particularly in a section devoted to etymology, and the source I cited from is perfectly reliable as an authority on the English language. If you have no further reason for your mislabelled deletions, I will restore the information. --Stemonitis (talk) 18:17, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

One is by definition more inclusive, but that doesn't really matter. I gave you the correct transcription if you wish to use it. — kwami (talk) 23:25, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

And then when I use it, you remove it with, again, no good explanation (cf. WP:1RR). What are you doing? --Stemonitis (talk) 13:14, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I see. You labeled it a reversion, but you did make a partial correction. I didn't notice that. I've reverted myself and fixed the rest. — kwami (talk) 13:25, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"I gave you the correct transcription if you wish to use it" is an evident invitation. Snubbing someone for acting on it seems needlessly spiteful. Please try to explain further if you can, but if you have no further arguments to present, then I can only asusme that there is indeed no reason for the deletion, and that the IPA can be restored. You cannot both insist on deletion and fail to satisfactorily explain the deletion. (And no, what you have given so far is clearly not satisfactory.) --Stemonitis (talk) 13:26, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)

No, this still isn't right. You state that "it's pronounced that way everywhere", which is patently untrue. The OED gives two pronunciations, clearly indicating that two pronunciations exist. I trust the OED more than a Wikipedia edit summary, and I do not understand why this is so troublesome for you. A very reliable source says something straightforward; why are you contesting it? --Stemonitis (talk) 13:31, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, the OED website, today, gives

Pronunciation: Brit. /ˈmatək/ , U.S. /ˈmædək/

I think that's pretty clear. --Stemonitis (talk) 13:33, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, if we were to use their IPA conventions. But we don't. The OED is giving the pronunciation in two different accents, but it's the same pronunciation. Here on WP we ignore such details. This is explained at the top of the IPA key you linked your transcription to. — kwami (talk) 13:58, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I can't help thinking that explanation would have been useful a few days ago. Problem solved. --Stemonitis (talk) 14:11, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thought I did. Sorry I wasn't clear. — kwami (talk) 14:15, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Just wanted to drop you a note because I saw you moved Mark Harrington (anti-abortion activist) from pro-life to anti-abortion, I agree with you that its more precise, but unfortunately consensus seems to be against it per the move discussion currently in progress at Talk:Pro-life. Just wanted to give you a heads up that you might take some flack for that move, particularly if the move discussion at pro-life is unsuccessful. _WikiMan^One 02:45, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the link. — kwami (talk) 02:51, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

kwami, this may be a strange question :), but would you happen to know where or who I can ask for assistance with the Template:Infobox military conflict? It seems no matter what I do on Croatian War of Independence the right column always takes up 2/3 of infobox width (instead of 1/2). --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 03:10, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'd ask on the talk page of the template. If that doesn't work, on the talk pages of the people who've recently modified it significantly. (Going to dinner, so I don't have a minute right now myself.) — kwami (talk) 03:24, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. Can you look at the the IPA and respelling for Irymple, Victoria please It is pronounced EYE-rimple. -- Mattinbgn (talk) 04:07, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sure. There was just an extra pipe in the respelling template. — kwami (talk) 04:39, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You do realize that the definition "fins and scales" is the kosher dietary one and has no basis in science - it would make sea turtles and penguins into fish, as a matter of fact. I have been trying to come up with a definition myself, there really isn't any objective one. In the meantime, trying to fix that article piecemeal is like putting lipstick on a pig.μηδείς (talk) 04:58, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I was trying to at least get rid of the self contradictions.

Perhaps the OED definition will help:

In popular language, any animal living exclusively in the water; primarily denoting vertebrate animals provided with fins and destitute of limbs; but extended to include various cetaceans, crustaceans, molluscs, etc. In modern scientific language (to which popular usage now tends to approximate) restricted to a class of vertebrate animals, provided with gills throughout life, and cold-blooded; the limbs, if present, are modified into fins, and supplemented by unpaired median fins.

Except in the compound shell-fish, the word is no longer commonly applied in educated use to invertebrate animals.

As a start, I'll remove 'scales' and add 'gills'. — kwami (talk) 11:14, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A solution needs to be found quickly, please re-join discussion at Talk:Kurdish people#Turkish Propaganda. Kermanshahi (talk) 08:40, 8 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Whats you're thoughts on this edit? I don't know enough about this stuff to know if its accurate or a vandal screwing with us. Thanks! Heiro 02:37, 9 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's reasonable. The tie bar just means liaison: the /z/ is part of the previous word but is pronounced as part of the following word. However, that's really a phonemic concept, or a typographical one, and we've provided a phonetic transcription; it's hard to argue how [z] (in brackets) behaves that way. Another solution would be to just remove the spacing between the words altogether. But I'm not too familiar with how liaison is transcribed in phonetic vs phonemic transcriptions. — kwami (talk) 02:45, 9 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi kwami. I don't know if you're watching this page, but if you aren't, you might be interested in the move discussion going on there. --JorisvS (talk) 16:36, 9 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I think Category:Newark_Pepper should be restored, Category:Newark_Peppers should be deleted, and then Category:Newark_Pepper should be moved to Category:Newark_Peppers. Minor detail, but the page history was lost on the wrong category page. No biggie, but that was the purpose of fixing the c&p move. Rgrds. 64.85.214.196 (talk) 18:28, 9 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not able to move categories. I don't know if s.o. else is, but the only thing in its history is a quick creation by a bot. — kwami (talk) 19:52, 9 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Kwami, there appears to be a bum or confusing reference. Looking at the on-line journals from my university, the Journal of Asian and African Studies is only at volume 45 and contains no such article as the Heine et al. article you cited at Kx'a languages. --Taivo (talk) 16:38, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know what's wrong. De Gruyter lists it,[6] and I linked to an online pdf. — kwami (talk) 23:05, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I see the problem now. There are two Journal of Asian and African Studies. The one you've linked to is (Tokyo) and the one I looked at is (Leiden). This needs to be specified. --Taivo (talk) 23:55, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Done. — kwami (talk) 00:04, 11 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have no idea how to find it in the move log, it's a couple of weeks ago now; can you change Comox–Strathcona Regional District to its proper form now please? I'm about to start the speedy-category change, since Good Olfactory hasn't done it yet.Skookum1 (talk) 18:49, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, don't know why I missed that. Done. — kwami (talk) 22:43, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, here is a pronunciation of her name: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYOe4sHAX-U — Preceding unsigned comment added by WPray20 (talk • contribs) 16:08, 11 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Can you take a look at Karen, Karen (name) and Karen (disambiguation)? The consensus on the talk page at Karen is that the article should not be a hodgepodge and the name should not be given priority. If you would make Karen a redirect to the disambiguation page and put the relevant material from it about the name under the article Karen (name) this would execute the consensus view. Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 22:37, 11 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Put the people first on the dab page. — kwami (talk) 23:47, 11 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Kwamikagami , could you take a look at the Antonio Arnaiz-Villena page? User Symbio04 has reverted all my edits, without justifying his actions. There were several reverts by other editors to Symbio's edits. I do not want to get involved into edit waring and I do not know what to do in this case. Since you have issued a warning to Symbio04 in the past, for this particular article, I thought I could tell you. GoingToPluto (talk) 22:00, 13 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Reverted. — kwami (talk) 00:49, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you GoingToPluto (talk) 00:51, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's a little hard to follow, but it looks like you restored the article back to here. I'm assuming you did it to back out many improper edits, but at the same time, you also backed out reasonable edits (like mine). Do I have to redo them, or is there an easier way? I don't really have any special interest in the article, but it's never fun to lose work.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:55, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry if I deleted your work. Once I accounted for the COI edits, the rest seemed relatively minor, so I didn't pay them much attention. If you don't want to redo them (they're still there to copy, after all), I'll try to do it. — kwami (talk) 01:59, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'll try to do it tomorrow. I'm tired and am about ready to sign off. You don't need to worry about it. I just glanced at them, and, you're right, it won't be that hard.--Bbb23 (talk) 02:10, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hm, I did not know this. I guess there is no way to just revert an older bad edit and keep a good but more recent one. GoingToPluto (talk) 11:13, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not if they overlap. Then you need to correct manually. — kwami (talk) 21:02, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Kwami. Nice catch on Gerund, but I think this is a step too far. I think there is a school of traditional grammar in which "subject" and "verb" must each be one word, but pretty much since the days of phrase-structure grammar (c. 1950s) NPs have been identified as subjects, and that is the standard analysis today. I think you had it right in the previous edit: the subject of "Eating this cake is easy" is the non-finite clause NP "eating this cake". Do you disagree? Cnilep (talk) 14:03, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know. We're imposing categories which might or might not make sense in other contexts. Basically I'm saying the head of the clause is the subject ('eating is easy'), but sure, you could argue that's a different sentence and so only the clause as a whole is. Feel free to revert. Or maybe we could use 'eating is easy' to illustrate why the clause is the subject. — kwami (talk) 21:05, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've very briefly summarized this at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Linguistics#Gerund. You may want to verify that I haven't misrepresented your point. Happy editing, Cnilep (talk) 00:16, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. I was interested in your edit to the pronounciation of York on the page of that name that relates to the place in Yorkshire, England. I was wondering if you had a reference to support the claim that a rhotic R is present in the pronunciation of the York? In my reasonably extensive, though not comprehensive, experience, the R is pronounced neither by the locals nor in an RP accent. Unfortuntately, I do not have a reference to support my opinion. Yours, almost-instinct 22:49, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, there was no need for that edit. Everyone knows how to pronounce "York", so there is no need for a pronunciation apart perhaps for the local one. AFAIK, the local pronunciation has been non-rhotic for half a century or more. I've reverted myself. — kwami (talk) 09:05, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for that! almost-instinct 10:32, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The reason for deletion is that the categorisation should be at Commons, and removal of the local description page (the image will still show up), helps separate images on Commons and thus acceptable from a licensing perspective, from those images locally that are not.

I have asked about this at least twice, and was told there was no problem in flagging up locally categorised commons images. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 08:32, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for all the work on the General Chinese article; can I encourage you to do some more? I still cannot find a publicly available copy of the book. The Hong Kong Polytechnic University has a copy but they won't let me look at it. m.e. (talk) 13:33, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The part I have yet to do is much more involved that the rest, and I don't know if I'll have time to get to it. Do you have any specific questions I could answer? — kwami (talk) 23:03, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The link requires a 会员名 and a 密码 unfortunately. One obvious question, is the book in English or Chinese? m.e. (talk) 06:53, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There are extensions that can get around that sometimes, but I don't have anything in Chinese.

Bilingual on facing pages, or in tables. — kwami (talk) 07:37, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Kwami, I proposed this move a week ago and no one has objected. I can't move it myself since Shoshoni language already exists as a redirect. Thanks. --Taivo (talk) 17:57, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sure. Also moved Shoshone to Shoshoni people to match. — kwami (talk) 22:56, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Moving the people article wasn't necessary because, perversely, the language is spelled "Shoshoni", but the tribal names are all "Shoshone". Unless someone gripes, however, the people article can stay at Shoshoni people since each of the tribes has its own page. --Taivo (talk) 23:29, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

They're close enough in spelling that it won't matter if we move it again. — kwami (talk) 23:36, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The growing convention would be that the most common English form is used, not a native-"custom spelling" rooted in modernized orthography for that language (as is any romanization for any such language). Ethno articles and language articles already follow different paradigms for that (partly established by kwami), e.g. Nlaka'pamux and Thompson language, Secwepemc and Shuswap language etc. Not always cf. Okanagan people where the Okanagan language redirect goes to Okanogan-Colville (or is it Colville-Okanogan?); the ethno-correct version of the ethnonym is Syilx but this is not well-established in local English as are Secwepemc and St'at'imc etc. NB all three of Nlaka'pamux, Secwepemc and St'at'imc include "people" in their morphemes so adding "people" would be redundant except it's true that constructions like "St'at'imc people" and "Nlaka'pamux people" are common. I'm not sure what's become of Wuikyala, which might redirect (now) to Rivers Inlet language, its better-known-in-linguistics form. Do we need a standard/convention? Maybe - but in English the regular most-common construction for the item in question would seem to be "Shoshone language", though maybe that's changed in recent years....Skookum1 (talk) 01:10, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We try to stick to a common name for the people and language where possible. I'm not convinced the Shoshoni move was warranted, but that can be taken up on the talk page if anyone objects. — kwami (talk) 02:46, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Skookum, Shoshoni is the most common, indeed the only, form used in linguistic work over the last 40 years and is the form used by the two publishing linguists who are native speakers. I don't really mind whether the "people" article is at Shoshoni or Shoshone since that's not my interest area. But "Shoshoni" is the modern and most common spelling for the language. --Taivo (talk) 04:35, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Kwami, it seems that the discussion on renaming the aforementioned article has been decided in our favor - 4 supporting votes, and 1 opposing vote from a user who does not appear to be engaged in any further discussion. I think it is time to request that the move discussion be closed but I do not know how to place that request. While I realize that you as one of the parties of the discussion cannot close it yourself, I wonder if as an administrator you may know better on how to proceed from this point on. --ComtesseDeMingrélie 04:41, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If I hadn't voted, I'd move it myself. But someone will be along to take care of it soon. The RfM will expire in a few hours. — kwami (talk) 07:42, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Done by User:Maunus. --Taivo (talk) 13:31, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I started a requested move discussion at Talk:Heartbeat International (Christian organization) -- would you care to chime in? --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:42, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Kwam. Wondering if you can explain this edit? Don't misunderstand, I'm not wanting an argument, just curious why the altered pronunciation is marked as 'cleanup'. The new pronunciation is wrong in Scottish English. This makes it sound like the number 5, and if you said it like that in Scotland that's what people would hear unless you had an accent. I'm guessing there is some kind of accent or allophone standardization going on, but if you would explain it to me as someone not familiar with this practice on wikipedia that would be helpful (similar issue with this). Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 04:54, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sure: it wasn't marked as Scottish. Unless stated otherwise, we assume transcriptions are generic ones for everyone who reads WP, not just for a targeted audience. Also, the IPA key that that template links to does not define what [əi] means: it's a bit like defining an English word by linking to a French dictionary that doesn't have it listed.

There's a newish template IPA-endia for regional variants of English that aren't covered by the generic-English IPA key. It's not finish yet, and for now it just links to the complete IPA key. Since "Fife" is such an easy name (apart maybe for some of our non-native-English readers), there really isn't any need for my changes; we can just change the template. — kwami (talk) 06:46, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for clearing that up. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 10:56, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

One of "those" again, sorry. SOme new editor unilaterally moved Álava - the consensus form we established last year - to Álava-Araba. Since it has to be moved over a redirect, I don't think the chap can do it himself and I was wondering if you could spare a moment? Cheers Akerbeltz (talk) 10:46, 18 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oh sugar, he also moved San Sebastián... Akerbeltz (talk) 10:50, 18 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, a whole lot of them... Special:Contributions/Jaume87 I left a note on his talk page. Akerbeltz (talk) 10:52, 18 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

More problematic are the cut&paste moves, which can be a pain to clean up if let go for too long. I've reverted some (it's late & I'm not terribly alert), & left a note for other admins to review.

Pls let me know of specific cases I may have missed. — kwami (talk) 12:07, 18 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think you got them all - many thanks! Akerbeltz (talk) 13:24, 18 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I apologise about my moves. Kwami, there is not a debate about San Vicente del Raspeig should be San Vicente del Raspeig or San Vicente del Raspeig/Sant Vicent del Raspaig, or is there? IMO I haven't done that many mistakes on my corrections: Fageca is not Facheca, Bossòst is not Bosost, etc. I clearly missed few consensuses, like Villarreal, Xaló Álava and San Sebastián, so i apologise again, i never meant to cause any trouble, plus unnecessary work. Jɑυмe (xarrades) 19:49, 18 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No problem. This isn't my topic, so if I undid some moves I shouldn't have, please let me know and I'll restore them (if you can't, or you do it, or whatever).

Properly done moves can always be reverted. The only real problem are the cut&paste moves, because then the article history is split, and starts growing in two locations, and it's a pain to splice them back together if they're left for too long. I'm thinking you got that already? So if you're prevented from actually moving the page, just ask someone like me to do it for you rather than copying it over. — kwami (talk) 22:34, 18 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I would suggest you bring it up on Wikipedia:WikiProject Catalan-speaking Countries. They might already have had that debate and either way, it will save you having to debate it on every talk page. Akerbeltz (talk) 22:55, 18 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Or even Portal:Catalan-speaking Countries Akerbeltz (talk) 22:56, 18 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, I will read them properly.

I just have a doubt, how long does someone need to wait to bring up new requested moves to discussions? For example, on Jalón and Villarreal there have already been made some requested moves, which seem didn't success. I'd like to know if it is possible to revive them.

One more thing, when I moved Jalón to Xaló, I created Xal without any intention, you can delete it if you want. Sorry again for the mess i did :) Jɑυмe (xarrades) 01:58, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The mess isn't a problem as long as you're willing to work with others, which you obviously are.

There's no set policy on when to revisit a page move. If some aspect was not properly addressed, it may be revisited immediately. Say, if people objected because some other page was not moved, and the names should all follow the same convention, you might make a 2nd proposal to move all those pages; or if the guideline or similar articles that would have affected the outcome have been changed, it might be appropriate to revisit the move. What gets people upset is an attitude of screw you, I'm going to keep making a scene until I get my way. It's the in-between situations that are hard to judge, and I don't have any answer for you there. — kwami (talk) 02:09, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks kwami, you are very helpful. I will read how stuff works and then I'll see if I can do anything. Could do something like:

-Jalon (disambiguation page) → Jalón~Xaló village, Xaló (river)~Jalón (river) (also called Gorgos) in Alicante and Jalón (river) in Aragon-Castile and León. Jɑυмe (xarrades) 03:02, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ugh! San Vicente del Raspeig was a mess, not because it was moved, but because the page history was split (the content was copied back & forth several times). I think it's fixed now. I don't know which name is correct, so I put it at the most recent stable version and started a move discussion on the talk page. (The article itself is protected from editing right now, since some anon IP started cutting & pasting again, but that's only for an hour.) — kwami (talk) 04:44, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I paid attention to that, I won't move pages without letting you know :D

I replied you here and started some other move discussions (La Nucía → La Nucia and Peñíscola → Peníscola/Peñíscola)

What about Elche? Could I suggest moving it to official form Elx/Elche? Current name do not match with Misteri d'Elx. Jɑυмe (xarrades) 20:55, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well, UNESCO uses the Spanish form Elche. (The Mystery Play of Elche).

You don't need to come to me for page moves! It's not a matter of getting permission (who am I to grant permission?), just a matter of politeness to ask first (on the article talk page, not here) in case it's already been discussed. You only need to come here if you can't move the page yourself.

I have no advice on Elche. Personally, I dislike double names. IMO, it's better to pick one, either because it has wider international recognition, or because it's truer to the local form. I think double names should be a last resort, or a temporary solution until a decision can be made. But that's just me ;) — kwami (talk) 21:04, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I started a discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Article_titles#Spanish.2FCatalan_double_names. — kwami (talk) 21:29, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Kwami,

Just a heads up that I have reverted your two page moves of Kinyarwanda and Kirundi. I don't regard these moves as uncontroversial, so if you really want them to go ahead, they should be listed at WP:RM. I have listed my reasons for opposing this at Talk:Kinyarwanda#Name change if you wish to contribute to the debate.

On a personal level, I lived in the area for many years, and in all the time there I never heard anyone use the terms "Rwanda language" or "Rundi language", plus the CIA and BBC do not use those terms, so I think this fails WP:COMMON right out, no matter what ethnologue thinks. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 10:48, 18 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Rundi" is even used in the Encyclopedia of Language and Linguistics. — kwami (talk) 11:01, 18 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, just go ahead and move it back, since I barely expected my movement can sustain.

I just don't know why, when most of the world don't call this language/dialect "Hakka Chinese" (well how many linguists on earth call it this way in their studies?), and when the name "Hakka" is far more accepted in the world and appears everywhere in the article itself already, you guys still insist to suffix it with "Chinese". It's hard not to link that mandatory but strange, affected "family name" behind the name of the language/dialect to some kind of "Sino-centric" or "One Big Chinese Language" view. If you can tell me how reasonable that "Hakka Chinese" is more NPOV than using "Hakka" only, then I'll be more persuaded and less non-conformative. Even if Hakka is regarded as merely a dialect of "the Chinese language", wouldn't it be ridiculous to call every dialect "XXX Chinese"? Or if you guys live in a country where such things are common and reasonable, then be my guest, since unfortunately the rest of the world does not seem to care for this oddity either.

Finally, many disambiguous pages on Wikipedia add "(language)" to refer to the languages mentioned, and I don't see the reason why this practice is unapplicable to Chinese languages/dialects. Even "(linguistic)" should be far more acceptable. But when people use a rare term of "Hakka Chinese", then it's showing the implied classfication and orientation already, and this is NOT NPOV. --Roberto Carlos No.3 (talk) 08:36, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As I've said, if you can come up with a better suggestion, I'd be delighted. I agree that, out of context, people would expect "Hakka Chinese" to mean the people rather than the language. But what else is there?

"Hakka dialect" is not acceptable because it's a language.

"Hakka language" and "Hakka (language)" are not acceptable because it's a dialect.

"Hakka (linguistics)" is not acceptable because it's not a linguistic topic.

Just plain "Hakka" is of course used as much for Hakka people as for the language, and is rightfully a redirect.

Again, come up with a good solution and people will jump all over it. But we've gone around and around with this, and no-one's been able to think of anything.

You said, many disambiguous pages on Wikipedia add "(language)" to refer to the languages mentioned. Really? Any examples? I don't know of such a page. The only thing I'm aware of is cant (language), which is something quite different: a kind of language called a "cant".

As for people who call it "Hakka Chinese", true, it's uncommon. Writers generally just call it "Hakka" and use context or circumlocution to dab. In a title, of course, the first does not exist and the second is awkward (though perhaps you can think of something). But there is McBride-Chang (2003) Reading development in Chinese children, Brown & Ogilvie (2008) Concise encyclopedia of languages of the world, Greenberg (1978) Universals of human language, Finegan (2007) Language: its structure and use, Char & Char / Hawaii Chinese History Center (1983) Chinese historic sites and pioneer families of the island of Hawaii, Republic of China (2003) National Science Council Review.

I'd prefer something a little clearer. Perhaps you're smarter than me and can think of it.

Anyway, if you think you can make a good argument for Hakka (language)—or anything else, for that matter—make a move request or otherwise bring it up for discussion. We work off of consensus here. — kwami (talk) 08:55, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• User:Jaume87 has made a fair number of cut&paste moves. I think I caught them all (at least back to Xmas), but it's late, I'm tired, and it would be a good idea for s.o. to review the account. — kwami (talk) 12:05, 18 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Please when will you be able to list all these needed history-merges? See also Wikipedia:WikiProject History Merge. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 23:36, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know which ones do. I caught one after I posted that note, but repaired it myself. I'll need to take another look. — kwami (talk) 23:57, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In most cases, it was only Jaume's edits which were lost, or sometimes a bot or automated cleanup (iw bots, commons delinker, etc.) which will be repeated anyway. I've notified Jaume that some of his work may have been lost, and to see if there's anything he wants to redo. I don't see anything else that IMO is worth the effort of a history merge.

Ah, caught one more, La Vall d'Alcalà. Merged. — kwami (talk) 00:18, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You found Fageca? ~ Thanks i didn't touch any in Valencia province lol. Jɑυмe (xarrades) 03:22, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, Gallinera → La Vall de Gallinera. I think those should be all, or most, i am looking. Jɑυмe (xarrades) 03:37, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Those aren't problems, Jaume, because you moved them properly. When you use the 'move' tab, the page history is carried along with the article. People might argue over the name, but there's no maintenance work that needs to be done. La Vall d'Alcalà was different: there you deleted the article in one place, and pasted it in another. When you do that, the page history is left stranded at the old name, and the new article starts building up a separate history. Then if it's ever moved back, it gets to be a real mess. — kwami (talk) 03:40, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A file that you uploaded or altered, File:ChuShogiPromotions.png, has been listed at Wikipedia:Possibly unfree files because its copyright status is unclear or disputed. If the file's copyright status cannot be verified, it may be deleted. You may find more information on the file description page. You are welcome to add comments to its entry at the discussion if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. --Magog the Ogre (talk) 07:35, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, just curious... but what's the problem with it? I by no means meant to make any mistake... if I had, please point me in the correct direction? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.152.77.133 (talk) 02:02, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It just seemed unlikely. Might it be pronounced like war with an n at the end? — kwami (talk) 02:05, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

well, I'm not sure where I could "prove" the pronunciation.... but I'm from the town in question... everyone says worn. (rhyme). In fact, if you were to look at the town motto on the website for the community center, it says "Where your welcome is never 'Warne' out" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.152.77.133 (talk) 01:40, 23 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please before touching the article again go to the talk page - edit summaries are one thing - an intelligent response would be not to dismiss and revert - but to explain yourself at the talk page - even if it might seem obvious to you SatuSuro 23:05, 23 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It was factually wrong. Discussion is for opinion, or for substantiating facts, but this was s.t. no-one would disagree with. — kwami (talk) 00:57, 24 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Facts? hahaha - show me a large area where there is total consistency amongst all academics about a whole range of linguistic arguments in southeast asia ... hmmm, I think fact is acceptable with your specific edit - but a lot more of the southeast asia area is potentially contentious and needs care in placing any claims - rather than 'facts'

however your later edit at Indonesia is accepted - SatuSuro 02:20, 24 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I seriously doubt that anyone would defend the idea that a "sultanate" is a "dialect". Yeah, I think that's rather unambiguously a fact. — kwami (talk) 02:27, 24 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, a Sultanate is not a dialect. But let’s not obfuscate any further: as I previously pointed out in my edit summary, that was a typo. Indeed, that it was a grammatical/syntax error was fairly clear, in my opinion.

Typo or not, I don’t think it justifies the hard revert of a number of other changes. However, I agree with SatuSuro that this most recent edit of yours is good. cheers --Merbabu (talk) 04:15, 24 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry if the revert was upsetting. I simply didn't see much difference between a fix and a revert. — kwami (talk) 06:01, 24 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A possible point to consider is that many of the Indonesian/Malay distinctions in articles across the range of south east asia have been regularly contested and created many edit wars in the past - when I saw the info box placing of malay as the language of Indonesia - the immediate thought is that many seeing that diff would consider that an invitation for serious edit wars and arguments - regardless of the intent of the change for linguistic truth or clarity - the concession in this case for encyclopediac clarity (as opposed to truth or fact) is to allow indonesian language for the indonesians and if you wished to make an issue of the origins - then it is either a separate part of the article or other article to prove or establish the fact or truth - I was not in any way focused on the other part of sultanate/dialect SatuSuro 09:09, 24 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm fine with the way the wording is now. The article is not intended for Indonesians, but for those who know little of Indonesia, and I wanted to make it clear to them how close the languages are. I was always amused when Indonesians objected to me calling the language I was speaking with them "Malay", despite the fact that I'd learned it in Malaysia, out of "Malay" grammars, and had a "Malay" dictionary. I know some Usonians who call their language "American" rather than English, and find that similarly amusing. — kwami (talk) 09:18, 24 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm I would never tell my indonesian friends i was speaking malay - thats simply impolite and innapropriate - unless you are speaking javanese - that is another matter - in Yogyakarta in the deep dark past I was told I was speaking malay (I had started at a university where they specifically were teaching malay rather than Indonesian) by a javanese - as he could detect the bhs malay inflections and word usage vs the local javanese affected indonesian which he was using - I think you have to be very careful with claims of knowledge about language with speakers of Indonesian or Malay - or you can end up in some rather awkward situations - unless if you can joke with them about the situation in their mother tongue (ie javanese etc) SatuSuro 10:36, 24 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, people didn't appreciate it, so I didn't do it much. But I was actually speaking "Malaysian", or perhaps it would be better to say my language skills were basic enough that it didn't matter which I was speaking. It just struck me as odd that I was speaking a different language when I crossed the border, even though I spoke the same. — kwami (talk) 10:49, 24 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I see from this talk page you seem to have trouble with moving pages. Please do not move gyros again; there is not support for the name you moved it to. Jonathunder (talk) 03:58, 24 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There is plenty of support. No reason has been given for not following the MOS apart from I don't like it. Posted a RfM. — kwami (talk) 06:00, 24 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Dunno whether you want to get yourself embroiled w/ him again, but your Worcester nemesis is up for admin status. I thought he was an obtuse jerk in that exchange, but I don't have the inclination to devote myself to a big WP argument against his elevation. --Atemperman (talk) 06:43, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You can just say what you said here; you don't need to stick around for an argument. If you don't say something, you can't complain if he's made an admin! :) — kwami (talk) 08:23, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I only saw this section as I watchlisted your page for the above. As for your oppose comments, they sum up my thoughts fairly well, but that's based on (as far as I know) a single episode. Your concerns seem to be rather long standing. So, I'm reluctant to provide a similar comment, however, if the kudpung uses the tools in the same boorish manner he "dealt" with me, then that would be no good at all. --Merbabu (talk) 08:36, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

WP is in general not a democracy, but elections for adminship are. If you don't participate, you'll get a govt that reflects that. If it's just me railing against him, it could be that I'm being unreasonable, or have some grudge. He is, after all, a very good editor apart from his personality, and dealing with him was so unpleasant that I really don't want to revisit it by digging up edit histories. When several people say the same thing, however, it strikes readers as more likely to have some substance. — kwami (talk) 08:50, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You have email SatuSuro 09:07, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No such information available. I was trying to find out some info about it, but I couldn't. As far as I know, the Macedonian law describes it as separate language for communication in Macedonia equal to the spoken Macedonian. On the web site of the Association of deaf people in Macedonia, there some general information about the language, about the basic phrases and about the alphabet. I hear about the Yugoslav language for the first time. Regards, --MacedonianBoy (talk) 18:46, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! In the SLs of E. Europe, they say that they had no info on Macedonia. I wouldn't expect a truly separate language, & somehow I doubt they use Bulgarian SL (which might be a variety of Russian SL?). — kwami (talk) 20:55, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

OK, let me ask the Association and I will inform you about their response. If they say it is part of the Yugoslav languages then we should state like that. As soon as they respond me, I'll inform you.--MacedonianBoy (talk) 21:22, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have sent them an email and I wait for the response. I asked them whether the MSL is separate language (if it is which language family is member to) and if it is not, whether it is a dialect of the Yugoslav languages such as Slovene. Best--MacedonianBoy (talk) 21:30, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The book is very good and it is valuable. I went through the book and as you said it is about the history of the language, the basic principles of the language, the alphabet and the teaching and training interpreters. In many instances, the author recalls the situation in Croatia, Slovenia and Serbia and the situation in ex-Yugoslavia association. So far, I did not find even one word about the classification of the language and about the MSL. --MacedonianBoy (talk) 11:31, 26 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting fact of omission. Let's see what the association has to say. — kwami (talk) 20:29, 27 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I closed the requested move discussion on the Māori topics and made the requested moves. It's time to start the cleanup that you said you were itching to undertake! --Orlady (talk) 15:57, 26 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Okay. I had the time then. Let's see what I can fit in now. — kwami (talk) 21:17, 26 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I got to about a thousand, and then s.o. else finished up the job. (There are about 80 that are now 'Maori people' that come up as obvious choices for 'Maori culture' or 'Maori mythology', so I'm going through them.) — kwami (talk) 08:03, 2 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Kwami,

In spite of the consensus reached at Talk:San Vicente del Raspeig, the page was moved back by a Spanish Wikipedia user: Imperator-Kaiser (talk · contribs). He was aware of the proposal and of the conclusion, as well as the other moves such as Talk:La Nucia, where he voted against it, saying in Spanish, b/c he refused to write in English, that the proposal was "another absurd measure of radical nationalists [sic] (i.e. regionalists)".

I do not wish to start a "move" edit war, so I did not move it back. I don't know if you are familiar with Spanish-related articles (especially those related to those autonomous communities in Spain that speak another native language besides Spanish), but I wouldn't be surprised if an edit war ensues, with Spanish Wikipedia users reverting back to the "Spanish-only" version.

-- dúnadan : let's talk 19:26, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

I moved & messed up the redirect history so that he can't revert. Hopefully that will be enough. — kwami (talk) 19:55, 27 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Kwami, we need to get more neutral editors involved in this discussion. Posting to the food and drink project doesn't seem to have helped. How can we do that (without, of course, violatingWP:Canvassing)? --Macrakis (talk) 20:20, 27 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'll post on one of the editing boards. — kwami (talk) 20:27, 27 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please do not add or change content without verifying it by citing reliable sources, as you did to Mudra. Before making any potentially controversial edits, it is recommended that you discuss them first on the article's talk page. Please review the guidelines at Wikipedia:Citing sources and take this opportunity to add references to the article. Thank you. Yworo (talk) 22:37, 27 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi kwami, You've removed Slrubenstein's changes to the Ritual Decalogue article 4 times in under 24 hours. As you know, this is an obvious WP:3RR violation. I recommend you revert yourself, and work things out on the Talk: page, before you are blocked for violating 3RR, which none of us would want. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:17, 27 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

And you are also edit warring. You should know better by now. In this last edit, I removed the offending phrase. — kwami (talk) 23:19, 27 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps you did, but you also removed Slrubenstein's additions, quotations, etc., so it's a revert regardless. And it's pretty ironic when someone who has just violated WP:3RR admonishes someone who has not for "edit warring". Jayjg ^(talk) 23:32, 27 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I did lose count. But you are violating WP:BOLD: when an edit to a stable article is reverted, you should take it to the talk page, and not resort to edit warring. You should know better by now: you're not a newbie. — kwami (talk) 23:34, 27 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You shouldn't be counting at all. The only important and indispensible part of BRD is the D.·Maunus·ƛ· 23:46, 27 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't make the edit though, someone else did. And I was commenting on the Talk: page too, unlike you; in fact, you reverted three times before deigning to show up there. Also, given your own lengthy Wikipedia experience and recent behavior, continued admonitions that I should "know better by now" are (as stated before) at best, ironic. Now, please think this through: in our recent interactions, what has worked best for you; edit-warring and belligerence, or calm non-personal Talk: page discussion? I think you'll have to admit that the latter has gotten you much farther than the former. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:48, 27 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Whereas edit-warring has gotten you further, which is evidently part of the problem. You revert without consensus, but expect others to convince you before they revert. — kwami (talk) 23:53, 27 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What are my religious views? Slrubenstein | Talk 14:00, 28 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

See Talk:Shawarma#Proposed merge -- it looks pretty hopeless. See also User:Mgreenbe/Shawarma merge This issue exposes some structural issues around Wikipedia.... --Macrakis (talk) 20:01, 28 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's not been posted, so no-one's monitoring it. The discussion they'll be watching is at gyro. Also, this isn't a democracy: if it's obvious that the people voting against don't understand that the names don't correlate to the regional variations, then their voices won't count for much. WP policy is part of the consensus too, representing those who aren't part of this particular discussion. It depends on how well each side convinces whoever closes the discussion. — kwami (talk) 20:15, 28 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Those are old merge discussions, no longer 'live' -- but I thought worth comparing with the current dynamic. --Macrakis (talk) 21:32, 28 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please go to that page's talk to give your input, before enough users who are not knowledgeable enough chime in. Thanks. --HXL's Roundtable and Record 06:27, 1 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ive noticed your edits on Central Plains Mandarin and Lan–Yin Mandarin, would you mind adding your input to the conversation taking place at Talk:Xiao'erjing#Footnotes, it appears that User:Babelfisch is skeptical of either the existence of xiaoerjing and massive parts of the article, which i sourced earlier, i checked the article and the facts in it appear to be sound and sourced, variations of spelling do exist, as you noted it is used to write two different dialects of mandarin, Babelfisch complained allegedly that the article says only one variant of xiaoerjing is in use, and i don't see why that is a problem, i'm getting more of the feeling of hostility toward the article, looking for any excuse to destroy it, rather than a genuine concern for facts.ΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ (talk) 20:33, 2 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Kwami, you've reverted Ritual Decalogue 3 times again. The next time you revert this article, regardless of when or what you revert, I am taking you to WP:AN/3RR. Jayjg ^(talk) 06:38, 3 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]