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It's ridiculous, and the onus is on the people making that claim to show it to be true. If the Quranic Rum (in which the Arabo-Turkish term is rooted) comes from Persian, show us the evidence.

The Arabic Rum (RWM) has been attested since the 330s AD in the Namara inscription. That's hard fact. Is there a Persian text where Rome is mentioned that is older than 330? I'm not sure, I can't find it. But that would be one way to get closer to proving the Persian theory. And are we suggesting that the writers of the Namara inscription, who were client kings of the Roman Empire, and closely tied to Roman culture and the Roman people, had to learn how to call Rome in Arabic, from the Persians out East? Wouldn't it make more sense from the Arabs to have taken the name from the names by which the Greeks and Latins called themselves? And is there linguistic evidence? Arabic RWM from the Greek/Latin 'Rom(a)'. Why is the Persian link (or the interference of any other language) needed? I don't get it.

And random Iranian historians shouldn't be enough. Those quotes don't address the core of the issue: that there doesn't seem to be any evidence of a Persian influence. And for every Iranian historian, I can offer up two dozen historians who make no reference at all of a Persian involvement in the forming of the name. You have a situation here where overly enthusiastic Iranian contributors bite down on quotes in the works of random historians, and use that to legitimize the content they like. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A458:447B:1:2055:8FF6:E836:1031 (talk) 16:14, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I am not an Iranian contributor(battleground comment), but the reference and the note you removed state;

• "It was the Parthian and Aramaic form that subsequently was borrowed by the Pahlawi, Armenian, Georgian, Arabic and finally Neo-Persian and Turkish languages."^[1]

Hmmmm. Parthian? When did that empire exist? (247 BC – 224 AD). Wonder what language they used? Weird. Odd how you removed all of this while stating this information does not exist.

~Followed by continued rants of "Iranian nationalists", while removing referenced information.~

"Why is it that foolishness repeats itself with such monotonous precision?" --Leto II, God Emperor of Dune. --Kansas Bear (talk) 16:37, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• • Shukurov, Rustam (2020). "Grasping the Magnitude: Saljuq Rum between Byzantium and Persia". In Canby, Sheila; Beyazit, Deniz; Rugiadi, Martina (eds.). The Seljuqs and their Successors: Art, Culture and History. Edinburgh University Press. pp. 144–162. ISBN 978-1474450348.

• • • 'It was the Parthian and Aramaic form' - My point is: what makes the Arabic Rum a Parthian/Persian form? How is the Arabic 'RWM' a Persian form? The Middle Persian word for Romans was something like 'Hromayig'. How is the Arabic 'Rwmi' relate to that and not directly to the Greek 'Rhomaioi'? That's the question. The Arabs interacted with the Romans much more intensely than did the Persians. The northern Arabs shared the same political and religious space with the Romans. Why would the Arabs need Persian, all the way East in Iran, to offer them a name to call the Romans by? That makes no sense. But again, Iranian historians flat out stating that the Quranic term comes from the Middle Persian isn't evidence. Historians make stupid statements all the time. And how do you weigh the mountain of historians who never mention a Persian link, but don't take the effort to address the claim of a Persian link? Is the absence of the mention of a Persian link evidence that the Persian link doesn't exist?

Your point is irrelevant. We base our information on sources, not your personal opinion/feelings - take this to a forum. Btw - "The Arabic and New Persian languages inherited the Pahlawi hrōm with the omission of the aspirated component in the Ancient Greek rho." - From the same page. --HistoryofIran (talk) 19:45, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You are an Iranian nationalist who is concerned with inserting a Persian claim all over the space. Everything under the sun becomes Persian. I've seen it all. It's not healthy, HistoryofIran. One (Iranian) historian does not set aside the multitude of sources that make no reference to a Persian link. It's one of those subjects. Iranians will make a big deal of it, trying to lay claim on anything they can. But the average historian doesn't even take the effort to address that claim. Is that silence evidence of the one side or the other. You can make both claims.

The term Rum comes from the Quranic usage of the term to mean the Byzantine Empire and its people. How the term came to be we can speculate. We can speculate about a Syriac influence, which makes much more sense than a Persian influence. For one thing, Syriac was the dominant language in the Persian West, and it was the dominant literary language of Persia. The Syriac name (Rwma) is also very similar to the Arabic name (the two languages are closely related and follow similar rules), unlike the Persian. You can even speculate about a Persian origin. But don't make such bold, unfounded claim right in the first sentence. 2A02:A458:447B:1:95CA:A546:8549:B60A (talk) 20:11, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Showing your true colors I see. Enjoy the upcoming block. --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:18, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The man has an Iranian name, I assumed he was Iranian.. Sorry for that. My point remains: what is the evidence for the idea that Arabic took the name from Persian specifically? Why would Arabs turn to Iran to get a name by which to call the Romans? And not take it from the Arameans or the Greeks? 2A02:A458:447B:1:B0C0:DD73:8871:1CA1 (talk) 16:25, 24 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

And fyi, Rustam Shukorov is Russian, not Iranian. Not that there is anything wrong with having an Iranian historian. HistoryofIran (talk)

Regarding this edit summary, the source is discussing the origin of the Chinese word "Fu-lin", which, according to the source, has its meaning based on what we know as Rum. Thus the source starts discussing the origin of the word "Rum". The source mentions the Old-Armenian form "Hrom" (alongside Pahlavi form), which, according to the source, has been derived from the Parthian form "From". Then it states that the Parthian form has been passed by Sogdians, who were Iranian people based in eastern Persia near china, as the prototype for the Chinese word "Fu-lin".Premitive (talk) 20:31, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The source is forced to discuss the Arabic RWM because it is the used form in New Persian. It eventually discusses the Arabic form and states that it traces back to its usage in the Quran, without making any claims about the origin of the term. The point remains: what is the evidence that the Arabic is derived from a Persian usage? And not from the Aramaic form, for example? Or directly borrowed from the Greek? Show me the evidence for that. Why would the Arabs have to turn to the Persians to get a name to call the Romans by? It's an absurd notion. 2A02:A458:447B:1:B0C0:DD73:8871:1CA1 (talk) 16:22, 24 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

And I repeat: the vast majority of sources make no mention of a Persian origin. A minority of sources making that claim shouldn't override the majority of sources. The page was edited a month ago to have it claim that the word is derived from Middle Persian. Why didn't you stop that from happening? Why are you now suddenly so interested in protecting the integrity of this page?

What is the evidence for the idea that Arabic took the form from Persian? These types of claims are made often on Wiki. On the Farang page, it is claimed that Arabic borrowed that term from Persian as well. Why would the Arabs borrow a term for the French from Iranians? Iranians didn't border Europe and had barely any understanding of Europe, while Arabs did border Europe and had a much better understanding of what was happening there. Turns out that Arabic used its form, al-Farang, long before the Persian Farang was first used. After being banned, I couldn't dare delete the claim. So instead I just added a sentence pointing out that a Persian-to-Arabic loan is impossible and illogical. 2A02:A458:447B:1:B0C0:DD73:8871:1CA1 (talk) 16:36, 24 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Take this to a forum. Next time you will reported (again). --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:04, 24 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

IP: And not from the Aramaic form, for example? This is a valid point. I think "or from Aramaic" should be added as a possible source for the Arabic term per Shukurov 2020, p. 145 (as quoted above). Wiqi⁽⁵⁵⁾ 03:01, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We certainly should not add original research to the page. There is no such mention of Arabic word being possibly derived from Aramaic in the source. Premitive (talk) 06:40, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Shukurov states that the Arabic term was borrowed from a "Parthian and Aramaic form" (emphasis mine). The lead ignores Aramaic as a possible shared origin. Wiqi⁽⁵⁵⁾ 08:15, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That is not true. Quote from Shukurov-2020: "The Arabic and New Persian languages inherited the Pahlawi hrom with the omission of the aspirated component in the Ancient Greek rho". Premitive (talk) 08:27, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I wasn't aware of that quote. I added it to the article as it's more relevant. Wiqi⁽⁵⁵⁾ 08:41, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Welcome.Premitive (talk) 08:58, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

According to the source, Arabic and Modern Persian have borrowed it from Middle Persian. Middle Persian itself has borrowed it from older languages. That is Parthian/Aramaic=>Pahlavi(Middle Persian)=>Modern Persian/Arabic.Premitive (talk) 08:38, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The idea that Arabians, who have had contact with the Mediterranean world and the Greeks since before Persians even existed in the Middle East had to turn to Iran in the East to learn how to call the Romans, is absurd. Persian wasn't even widely spoken anywhere near Arabia and it wasn't a literary language, so it isn't as if a written Persian form could have reached Arabia and spread there. That's why I can understand a Syriac origin much better. Syriac was a powerful literary language, a language that was read and written in parts of Arabia as well. Syriac makes sense, a Greek origin makes a lot of sense. A Persian origin makes least sense, yet overly enthusiastic Iranian contributors have edited the page a month ago to suit their nationalist feelings. Now it's set in stone and readers are told that the Quranic 'Rum' is from a Middle Persian term (Rhomayig?). And not from the Syrian Rawmi or the Greek Rhomaioi.

And you people being outraged at me. Where were you when the Iranian contributor changed the page a month ago to have it claim a Middle Persian origin? You weren't outraged when he just flat-out inserted this nationalist claim. 2A02:A458:447B:1:6CE0:5E0A:1D27:2EF9 (talk) 11:15, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The page should never claim a Persian origin for the term. The term became widespread among Arabs and Turks because of its use in the Quran. That is fact, and we try to deal in fact here at Wiki.

In another chapter, we can speculate about a Persian or Syriac or Martian origin. But this speculation shouldn't be presented as evidence. Based on a minority opinion of a few historians. 2A02:A458:447B:1:6087:C68A:BDD7:9CFD (talk) 07:55, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

'Shouldn't be presented as fact' I meant to say. I really hope someone with authority can edit this page to have the claimed Persian origin removed from the first sentence, and instead create a chapter further on with specualtions about its origins. 2A02:A458:447B:1:6087:C68A:BDD7:9CFD (talk) 07:58, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What forum are you talking about? We can't talk in the talk corner? 2A02:A458:447B:1:6087:C68A:BDD7:9CFD (talk) 07:49, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Edit warring to remove mention of certain languages under the guise of "adding sourced information" is disruptive editing.[1]
"Nevertheless, Rûm corresponds to the Greek term Ρωμιοί (Roman) used in older times to define the subjects of the Byzantine emperor..." -- Nationalisms vs Millets:Building Collective Identities in Ottoman Thrace, Paraskevas Konortas, Spatial Conceptions of the Nation: Modernizing Geographies in Greece and Turkey, ed. Nikiforos Diamandouros, Caglar Keyder, Thalia Dragonas, page 164. --Kansas Bear (talk) 02:30, 10 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The etymology of this term should be for sure given in the article. Anyway, according to the source given in the article, Rûm does not correspond to Ρωμιοί, as it was implied in the former version. Its usage in the muslim world is quite different. (pg. 21-24) . So, one could write "Rûm from Greek Ρωμιοί", but not "Rûm (Greek: Ρωμιοί)".Alex2006 (talk) 12:53, 10 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Since the word, Rûm, was used in the Namara inscription(per Encyclopaedia of Islam, Vol. VIII, page 601, C.E. Bosworth, "Rûm occurs in Arabic literature with reference to the Romans, the Byzantines and the Christian Melkites interchangeably. This issue of nomenclature is the first problem that confronts the reader of Arabic literature. Most often, however, the reference is to the Byzantines, which is the meaning followed in this entry. The sources for the pre-Islamic times include the important Namara inscription. All the literary sources were written in later Islamic times, deriving from the historian Ibn al-Kalbl. In the Islamic period, the first reference to Rum occurs in the Kur'an (Surat al-Rum, XXX, 1-5", the opening sentence clearly needs to be changed. --Kansas Bear (talk) 00:02, 12 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

If there are Arabic pre-islamic sources using Rum, then what you write is correct. Alex2006 (talk) 03:33, 12 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Beshogur what are your thoughts about the illustrations that have been this article? Piledhighandeep (talk) 20:50, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Two illustrations show historic Rum culture (underground churches) that are now popular with tourists. The third shows a mosque in the capital of the Sultanate of Rum (a medieval state discussed in the article and named for the Rum subjects/region), which was built by an architect from the community, showing the coexistence and interactions of the community. Piledhighandeep (talk) 20:59, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What's Rum community? Hearing for the first time. Checked the pictures, nothing tells about "Rum" there. What does Greek underground cities has to do with that article? Beshogur (talk) 21:29, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Rum community are/were the remaining christians in the Arab and Ottoman world dating to before Arab and Ottoman rule, when those regions were ruled by the eastern roman empire, at which time all groups living in those regions were still christian (eg. before Muhammad, see the references in this article's intro for much more detail, as discussed in the article, the name Rum comes from this Roman identity and is used in the Quran). Some of the Rum community spoke Greek dialects like Rumca (the name comes from Rum), since Greek had been the official language of the eastern roman (byzantine) empire, although most did not speak the Greek dialects used today in Greece. Others spoke only languages that became official and widespread during later empires, like Arabic (Antioch, Palestine, Syria), or Turkish (Karamanlides), and some spoke Armenian (Hayhurum) or Laz (around Trabzon), but all were members of the former eastern roman church, dating to when it was the official religion of the whole area (in ancient and medieval times), so all used Greek at times as a ritual language in their churches, just as the Western Roman (Catholic) churches once used Latin throughout all of Europe as a ritual language, regardless of what local language was being spoken in each country (Ireland, France, etc). In the Middle East, and in Turkey away from the immediate Mediterranean coast, few of the Rum community had any relationship to what is now called ancient Greece (and none called themselves Greek until the late 1800s, they would call themselves Romios, that is Rum/Roman as discussed in the references, or Rum in Turkish and Arabic). Nowadays, however, especially for those who were resettled in Greece, many descendants (even those coming from communities that originally spoke only Laz, Turkish, or Armenian) identify as Greek and speak only Greek. Others have resettled in Russia, or the US, and have become integrated into those cultures. However, since the article is about the Rum community as it exists (and existed) in the Middle East and Turkey, the illustrations focus on that original culture. Speaking specifically about the underground cities, they are referred to in the contemporary Arab sources as Rum cities, and the inhabitants of those towns continued to be referred to as Rum when later conquered by the Sultanate of Rum, which took its name from them when it began to rule over them. Rumi, who lived in the Sultanate of Rum near to some of these underground cities, gets his name from this word (Rum) also, and he mentions the local Rum in his poems, including a local Rum girl he had taken as a servant. The word/identity (Rum) continued to be used by the local christians of these underground towns through Ottoman times (early 20th century). Since they are related to so many applications of the word Rum discussed in the article (Rumi, Sultanate of Rum, Rum Ortodoks church), these underground cities in central Turkey seem a worthwhile illustration. Piledhighandeep (talk) 22:57, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Türk dilinde "Rum" veya Rûm kelimesi coğrafi anlamda Balkanlar ve Batı Avrupa'yı anlatmak için kullanılır. Mesela; İstanbul'un Asya yakası Anadolu'dur. Avrupa yakası Rumeli veya oriinal şivesiyleUrumelidir. Bunun karşıtı Anadolu veya Anatolia'dır. --3210 (talk) 14:40, 21 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Please provide an English translation of the above, as this is the English language Wikipedia.Blue Riband► 20:21, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]