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Adding back deleted comments. --[[User:Bizso|Bizso]] ([[User talk:Bizso|talk]]) 03:32, 16 February 2009 (UTC) |
Adding back deleted comments. --[[User:Bizso|Bizso]] ([[User talk:Bizso|talk]]) 03:32, 16 February 2009 (UTC) |
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== About non-existent Kingdom of Croatia == |
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In order to get a good understanding of the Croatian history - here are very good references showing clearly that Kingdom of Croatia existed only 16 years and namely from 1075-1091!!! |
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* Kings, Bishops, Nobles, and Burghers in Medieval Hungary by Erik Fugedi, Janos M. Bak, Erik Feugedi Published 1986 by Variorum Reprints |
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* The Realm of St Stephen: A History of Medieval Hungary, 895-1526 By Pal Engel Published 2005 by I.B.Tauris |
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Nobility, land and service in medieval Hungary by Martyn Rady Published 2000 by Palgrave Macmillan |
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* A History of Hungary's Nationalities By Ernst Flachbarth Published 1944 by Society of the Hungarian Quarterly |
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p 708 Hungary in the late fifteenth century - a map showing Wallachia, Hungary and Turkey and Ragusa '''- no clue about 'Kingdom of Croatia'''' |
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* The Medieval World By Peter Linehan, Janet Laughland Nelson |
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p 80 Figure 5.1 Map of medieval Hungary showing areas of Cuman settlement (times of King Bela V (1235 - 1270) '''- no clue about 'Kingdom of Croatia'''' |
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More interesting ... |
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* The Early Medieval Balkans: a critical survey from the sixth to the late twelfth century by John Van Antwerp Fine - Published 1991 by University of Michigan Press |
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Page 248 |
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Sources on Medieval Croatia |
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Early medieval Croatian history fits the concluding line to the old jingle: the more you study the less you know. When I was and undergraduate studying Balkan history I thought I knew quite a bit about Croatia; but as I study more about Croatia, one by one "facts" that I knew before turn out to be dubious, based on questionable sources or no sources at all. Most of the existing literature in western languages on medieval Croatia is extremely poor; and frequently it is marred by nationalistic bias. |
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Much of the information about medieval Croatian history comes from later (seveneenth- and eigteenth-century) narrative histories. These were written by enthusiastic people but ciontain a mixture of fact and legend; and since many of the documents they based their works on are now lost, it is extremely difficult to judge wheter their information came from reliable source or not. |
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* The Realm of St Stephen: A History of Medieval Hungary, 895-1526 by Pál Engel - 2005 I.B.Tauris edition, Translated by Tamas Palosfalvi |
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Pages 33-34 |
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One of Ladislaus's most significant achievements was the occupation of Hungary's southern neighbour, Croatia. ... The small kngdom, born in the tenth century, streched from the Kapela mountains to the Adriatic sea, its center being Biograd, located on the coast. |
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... |
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King Demetrius Zvonimir, who, not being a member of the ruling dynasty, obtained his throne throug election, asked Pope Gregory VII fo a crown in 1075, and, in return, declared his kingdom as a papal fief. After his death, Ladislaus laid claim on his realm by the right of his sister, Zvonimir's widow, and had no difficulty in taking possession of Croatia in 1091. He bestowed the new kingdom, together with royal title, on his nephew, Almos, son of Geza I ... |
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'''I further entertained myself reading yet another great discoveries of contemporary Croatian historians (soc.culture.yugoslavia) ....''' |
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The exclusive revelation is the result of "scientific" research by Croatian historian Dragutin Pavlicevic, and found its place in history books. The Split newspaper "Feral Tribune" reveals that Pavlicevic authored a chapter entitled "Croatian Indians", included in the second grade history textbook, shedding new light on the history of native Americans and their ties with Croats, "one of the oldest nations in Europe". He affirms that in North Carolina "a tribe has been living for more than 4 centuries differing in the color of skin, hair and facial features from other tribes". According to the same historian this is not surprising because the members of these tribe "have the noble blood of ancient Croats from Dubrovnik in their veins". Mr. Pavlicevic also speaks about the Mateo Indians, named after their ancestor Mateo - a Croat named Mate. "In his work, Dragutin Pavlicevic stresses that he estimates that presently there are more than 2 million Croatian descendants throughout the United States", states the Split newspaper. |
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'''...and this one form soc.culture.europe''' |
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Croats Sailed To New World Before Columbus And Vikings |
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Andrija Zeljko Lovric bases his theory on recent archeological finds of Islamic coins and Glagolitic writings in Paraguay |
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A theory that Croatian sailors, in the service of the Moorish caliphs, probably reached the coasts of the Americas not only before Columbus, but also before the Vikings themselves, may be corroborated by exceptional findings. One of the chief adherents of this theory is Andrija Zeljko Lovric. He presented his paper on the latest finds of Islamic coins and Glagolitic writing in Paraquay on the second day of the symposium called The Islamic World in the Twentieth Century, held in the Zagreb Islamic Center, in Croatia. The paper speaks of 61 plates with inscriptions written in the Glagolitic alphabet which have been found during the past decade on the cliffs of the Amambay massif in Paraguay, dating back to pre-Columbine times, from the seventh to fourteenth century. Previous explorers did not understand the script and believed it to be Viking runes. |
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Lovric lists numerous data contributing to the theory that the traces lead to Croatian sailors. First of all, among all Slav peoples that used the Glagolitic alphabet, only the Croats were renowned as sailors and, technically speaking, were the only ones who could have reached America. In addition, the Glagolitic script was used the longest by Croats. Second, American anthropologists believe the writers of these plates to have participated in the construction of the first early American town of Taiwanaku, where the statues of Guarani rulers bearing Croatian coats of arms on their chests were found. |
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--[[User:NovaNova|NovaNova]] 03:57, 16 March 2007 (UTC) |
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== Hungaro-Croatian reign == |
== Hungaro-Croatian reign == |
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In order to response some historiographer who deny existence of Kingdom of Croatia I qupted some veryfieable sources |
In order to response some historiographer who deny existence of Kingdom of Croatia I qupted some veryfieable sources |
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Revision as of 16:16, 1 March 2009
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I would like to ask everyone that do not censor neither the article nor its talk page!! Adding back deleted comments. --Bizso (talk) 03:32, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
Hungaro-Croatian reign
In order to response some historiographer who deny existence of Kingdom of Croatia I qupted some veryfieable sources
The time history of the world, 5th edition, ISBN:953-6510-62-6 pages 138,142,143, 145,147, 150-151, 186.Name Croatia is displayed on the maps.
The World book Encyclopedia volume 4, 1994
ISBN:0-7166-0094-3
Pages 1148b-1148c
" In 1102, Kalman, the king of Hungary, also became king of Croatia, thus creating a political union between Croatia and Hungary that lasted for more than 800 years.
Despite this Union, the Croats always kept their own parliament , called the Sabor "
Encyclopaedia Britannica , 15th edition , vol.3
"Croatia became a kingdom in the 10th century, and in the 1091 Ladislaus I (Laslo I) of Hungary assumed control; the ensuing union with Hungary lasted for 8th centuries. During the union with Hungary, Croatia retained its own assemble, the Sabor, and was legally an independent kingdom."
[u]Digital edition of Britannica 2007 Ultimate reference suite[/u]
"Croatia retained its independence under native kings until 1102, when the crown passed into the hands of the Hungarian dynasty. The precise terms of this relationship later became a matter of dispute; nonetheless, even under dynastic union with Hungary, institutions of separate Croatian statehood were maintained through the Sabor (an assembly of Croatian nobles) and the ban (viceroy). In addition, the Croatian nobles retained their lands and titles. "
So, mr. GiorgioOrsini/NovaNova/Purger (or however you call yourself this time)and your companions (user:Giovanni Giove) I do not where have you picked those "historiographers" who deny the existent of Kingdom of Croatia. Are they experts like Arrigo Petacco ???
Or you just fabricated your own quotes??? --Anto 18:13, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Croatia-Slavonia in the Kingdom of Hungary
Apart from the previously mentioned sources here are some more:
An encyclopedia of world history, ancient, medieval and modern, chronologically arranged By William Leonard Langer, Geoffrey Bruun Edition: revised Published by Houghton Mifflin Co., 1948 p.245
- "In 1091, Ladislas conquered Croatia and Bosnia but left these regions self- government"
The New Encyclopaedia Britannica By Encyclopaedia Britannica, inc, Jacob E. Safra
Edition: 15, illustrated
Published by Encyclopaedia Britannica, 2002
Original from the University of Michigan
Digitized 21 Dec 2007
ISBN 0852297874, 9780852297872
p 93.
- "Ladislas extended Hungary's frontier in Transylvania and occupied Croatia (1091) to protect the rights of his sister, the widow of Zvonimir"
Europe in the Middle Age
By Oliver Joseph Thatcher, Ferdinand Schevill
Published by John Murray, 1911
Original from Indiana University
p 681.
- "Croatia was added to Hungary (1091)"
Encyclopaedia Britannica , 15th edition , vol.3
- "Croatia became a kingdom in the 10th century, and in the 1091 Ladislaus I (Laslo I) of Hungary assumed control; the ensuing union with Hungary lasted for 8th centuries. During the union with Hungary, Croatia retained its own assemble, the Sabor, and was legally an independent kingdom."
The Encyclopedia Britannica: A Dictionary of Arts, Sciences, Literature and General Information By Hugh Chisholm Edition: 11 Published by The Encyclopedia Britannica Co., 1910 p. 474
- "Ladislaus I., king of Hungary- Ladislaus took possession of the country [Croatia] in 1091"
The Encyclopedia Britannica 1911
- "HUNGARY (Hungarian Magyarorszag), a country in the south-eastern pertion of central Europe, bounded E. by Austria (Bukovina) and Rumania; S. by Rumania, Servia, Bosnia and Austria (Dalmatia); W. by Austria (Istria, Carniola, Styria and Lower Austria); and N. by Austria (Moravia, Silesia and Galicia). It has an area of 125,402 sq. m.(=325.111kn2), being thus about 4000 sq. m. larger than Great Britain and Ireland."
- "It is almost exclusively continental, having only a short extent of seaboard on the Adriatic"
- "the terms Cisleithania and Transleithania, applied to Austria and Hungary respectively"
- "General Division: The kingdom of Hungary in its widest extent, or the " Realm of the Crown of St Stephen," comprises Hungary proper (Magyarorszdg), with which is included the former grand principality of Transylvania, and the province of Croatia-Slavonia. This province enjoys to a large extent autonomy, granted by the so-called compromise of 1868. "
- "CROATIA-SLAVONIA (Serbo-Croatian Hrvatska i Slavonija; Hung. Horvát-Szlavonország; Ger. Kroatien und Slawonien), a kingdom of the Hungarian monarchy"
- "The Croatian Kingdom: c. 910-1091"
- "Hungarian Supremacy: 1091-c. 1526. - Amid the strife of rival claimants to the throne, Helena, the widow of Stephen,. appealed for aid to her brother Ladislaus I., king of Hungary.. Ladislaus took possession of the country in 1091. He founded the bishopric of Agram and introduced Hungarian law. His. death in 1095 was the signal for a nationalist insurrection, but after two years the rebels were crushed by his successor Coloman. This monarch reorganized the administration on a system which has been maintained, with modifications in detail, by almost all subsequent rulers. He respected the existing institutions of the conquered territory so far as to leave its autonomy in domestic affairs intact; but delegated his own sovereignty, and especially the control of foreign affairs and war, to a governor known as the ban (q.v.)"
The Realm of St Stephen: A History of Medieval Hungary, 895-1526 by Pal Engel, Tamas Palosfalvi, Andrew Ayton - 2005 I.B.Tauris edition, Pages 33-34
- "One of Ladislaus's most significant achievements was the occupation of Hungary's southern neighbour, Croatia. ... The small kingdom, born in the tenth century, streched from the Kapela mountains to the Adriatic sea, its center being Biograd, located on the coast"
The Early Medieval Balkans: A Critical Survey from the Sixth to the Late Twelfth Century By John V. Fine, John V. A. Fine, Jr. Edition: reissue, illustrated Published by University of Michigan Press, 1991 ISBN 0472081497, 9780472081493
- "Hungarian intervention in Croatia in the 1090s
- The Hungarian king quickly intervened to protect his sister's interest (a fine excuse for what were porbably his own ambitions) and occupied much of Croatia, including part of Dalmatia."
Britannica 2009[1].
- "Hungary conquered Croatia in 1091."
Britannica actually mentions the fact that the document is disputed here [2].
Encyclopedia Encarta 2009
- Croatia and Slavonia were formally part of Hungary, although a large portion of their territory remained under direct Austrian rule until the late 19th century as part of the Habsburg Military Frontier (Vojna krajina)
- After the invasion of Hungary, the two kingdoms united under the Hungarian king, either by the choice of the Croat nobility or by Hungarian force, in 1102.[3]
- Ladislas subjugated Croatia, Bosnia, and part of Transylvania; his successor, Koloman, obtained part of Dalmatia
- The treaty of Trianon stripped about two-thirds of Hungary’s territory, including Transylvania, Croatia, and Slovakia [4]
- Croatia and Slavonia were formally part of Hungary, although a large portion of their territory remained under direct Austrian rule until the late 19th century as part of the Habsburg Military Frontier (Vojna krajina)
Although the status of Croatia in the Kingdom of Hungary is still disputed; according to all sources here: Whether you call it conquer, annexation, addition or union; the important thing is that
Hungary had control over Croatia, but gave her some extent of internal autonomy within the Kingdom of Hungary and in this relationship Hungary and Croatia were not equal parties. --Bizso (talk) 22:01, 16 February 2009 (UTC)