Legality of Cannabis by U.S. Jurisdiction

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Revision as of 17:37, 20 April 2020

Template:Vital article

Former good articleThe Holocaust was one of the History good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
March 9, 2005Featured article candidateNot promoted
January 19, 2006Good article nomineeListed
July 5, 2006Good article reassessmentKept
November 16, 2006Featured article candidateNot promoted
May 3, 2007Good article reassessmentDelisted
June 11, 2007Peer reviewReviewed
October 3, 2007Good article nomineeNot listed
Current status: Delisted good article

Enumerating Non-Jewish Deaths

As evidenced in the archives of this talk page – see, e.g., Archives 19 and Archives 35 – there has been scholarly dispute in recent years as to how many non-Jewish people who died at the hands of the Nazis should be viewed as Holocaust deaths. The number 5 million was used for decades but there is dispute among scholars, including Deborah Lipstadt, as to its provenance and accuracy. She points out that it either grossly understates the millions who were killed by the Nazis – easily as high as 11 million – or greatly overstates the number killed in anything like the systematically genocidal approach the Nazis took towards European Jewry. Indeed, Lipstadt suggests that the number of 5 million non-Jewish deaths was a deliberate fiction created for noble, if possibly misguided, reasons that has been embraced by antisemites. See https://jewishreviewofbooks.com/articles/217/simon-wiesenthal-and-the-ethics-of-history/. My recent edits, mistakenly reverted by TheSunofman, attempt to bring this discussion to the page which appears not to have had any recognition of it before. I left the discussion mostly in footnote as a means of minimizing the modification rather than bringing the dispute into WP. Czrisher (talk) 20:49, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The figure of 11 million by the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum is counting the victim to Nazi persecution, it was estimated by a over a decade-long research to come to that number. It is saying that 11 million people are victims of Nazi persecution and that 6 million Jews were victims of the Holocaust, they separate the two like the info box. It was done by an academic Institute That is very reputable and the USHMM number has nothing to do with the other number that is mentioned in the news paper or with Simon Wiesenthal. Example from the article 'During the era of the Holocaust, German authorities also targeted and killed other groups, including at times their children, because of their perceived racial and biological inferiority: Roma (Gypsies), Germans with disabilities, and some of the Slavic peoples (especially Poles and Russians). Other groups were persecuted on political, ideological, and behavioral grounds, among them Communists, Socialists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and homosexuals. What follow are the current best estimates of civilians and captured soldiers killed by the Nazi regime and its collaborators. These estimates are calculated from wartime reports generated by those who implemented Nazi population policy, and postwar demographic studies on population loss during World War II.'https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecutionTheSunofman (talk) 21:25, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It does not appear you have read or engaged with my edits. They bring the page into accordance with the USHMM piece to which you cite, which it was not previously and is not under your reversions. The citations you keep removing are to one of the main experts cited on the page and the USHMM itself saying that the "11 million" non-Jewish victims number is difficult for the reasons I inserted. They suggest that edits such as those you are making are a tool used by those who wish to minimize the Jewish victims of the Holocaust. I would like to believe, your ad hominem attacks notwithstanding, that you are acting in good faith; I wish you would accord me the same courtesy. Czrisher (talk) 21:51, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I am not trying to minimize the Jewish significance of the Holocaust or do ad hominem attacks. But in United States Holocaust Museum online literature, it does state 17 million people were victims of Nazi persecution. That was put there (11 million) by an administrator who appears to have been working on this page for quite some time. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Holocaust&diff=932755779&oldid=932470551 Example from the USHMM About the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Some key statistics about the Museum’s collections (Archives and Photo Archives): More than 170 million pages of documentation related to more than 17 million victims; 85,000 historic photographs and images, of which 23,661 are available on the Museum Web site.https://www.ushmm.org/online/world-memory-project/pages/about-the-museum/. If you count all non-Jewish Soviet deaths like the USHMM does (including 1.3 Soviet Jewish civilians, who are included in the 6 million figure for Jews). It still reaches 11 million So there is nothing wrong with the article as it is in sync with the USHMM.TheSunofman (talk) 22:19, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Czrisher: Can you summarize the sources that state otherwise? François Robere (talk) 23:07, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
We have chosen long ago this is not the best source. In fact one editor was blocked for insisting its use. --Moxy 🍁 23:46, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@François Robere: The sources say that one should distinguish the systematic killing of European Jews from the Nazis' other killings, which were equally brutal but not part of a genocidal approach such as that taken against the Jews. Thus, they say that listing non-Jewish victims as Holocaust victims is inaccurate. They go on to say that the often cited number of 5 million non-Jewish victims was a pure fabrication of Simon Weisenthal, made to engender support for his anti-Nazi work from people he felt would not be sympathetic if it was all about the 6 million Jews who were killed. The US Holocaust Memorial Museum citation catalogs the ~6 million Jewish victims of the Holocaust and, on the same page, counts "victims of Nazi Persecution", such as "Soviet civilians" and "Non-Jewish Polish civilians", some of which include Jewish deaths. I am guessing @Moxy: is referencing a discussion in Talk:The Holocaust/Archive 32 which is the only place I have found of prior discussion of one of the sources I added, an article by Ron Kampeas. But I did not see there anyone being blocked, and have found no discussion of the Deborah Lipstadt pieces cited by Kampeas. My read is that the scholarly conclusion is that we should differentiate the Holocaust/Shoah from other Nazi brutality in a way that TheSunofman would not have the cite do. The USHMM on which TheSunofman relies distinguishes, in its header and throughout between the two sets of victims. To include 11 million "Victims...of Nazi Persecution" in an article on the Holocaust, without explaining that distinction, appears to be doing a disservice to the cited source and the readers.Czrisher (talk) 16:27, 28 January 2020 (UTC) (ETA: Contra TheSunofman, I did not "remov[e]" the USHMM citation, which I consider an excellent resource, or [replac[e] it] with a newspaper citation, I added citations to a top scholar's article and a newspaper article that explains in simpler and more accessible language what the scholarly research says.)[reply]
And the citations..? François Robere (talk) 16:48, 28 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Where there is legitimate disagreement on a fact, it's always better to identify the different contentions, and their sources, rather than for WP to declare a single "truth." If there are different accounts of the number of Jews/non-Jews killed by the Nazis, we can identify the different figures and any explanations offered by the sources. It's unfortunate that people have chosen to place such emphasis on segregating the atrocities of the Nazis by ethnicity in the first place. I guess that ship has sailed. We've now apparently lowered ourselves to questioning the motives of those who seek accurate accounting of those killed. I guess there are those who will attempt to maximize or minimize the victims by ethnicity for their own purposes. John2510 (talk) 17:27, 28 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It should be noted that the USHMM museum website cited no longer includes the 11 million figure. https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution 2601:643:8681:160:EC2F:5AA4:4F2B:D76 (talk) 04:24, 30 January 2020 (UTC)Austin Weisgrau[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 2 February 2020

In the section: "8 Other victims of Nazi persecution" 

   "8.2 Non-Jewish Poles"

it would make sense to change it to: 

   "8.2 Poles"

With same logic as other nations. In fact in first wave of Poles send to Auschwitz there were few Jewish people, but they were send there as members Polish intelligentsia. Germans were killing Poles for being Poles, not for being "Non-Jewish Poles".

Also there is very serious controversy in the section: "6.1.1 Einsatzgruppen, pogroms" In one line there are listed Jewish-Polish conflicts from before war (not state controlled pogroms), with June and July 1941, Lviv pogroms, where Ukrainian nationalist (with German administration permission) massacred thousands of Jewish. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lviv_pogroms_(1941) This cannot be confused with the incidents where Jewish tradesmen had conflict with Polish villagers, resulting with maximum of couple of causalities on both sides! Please note that the source is note from the newspaper. But we speak here about very serious things. I could spend some time to edit it, but I believe most of Wikipedia administrators, can do it. It is just a matter of good willing.

Best Regards Kojoto Kojoto (talk) 19:11, 2 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Minecrafter0271 (talk) 23:05, 2 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Clearly we recognize that the Holocaust affected more than 6 million Jewish souls. While the facts come later in this topic, the entry to the page is misleading and should be corrected:

The Holocaust, also known as the Shoah,[b] was the World War II genocide of the European Jews and other individuals deemed 'undesirable' to the Nazi state. Between 1941 and 1945, across German-occupied Europe, Nazi Germany and its collaborators systematically murdered some six million Jews, around two-thirds of Europe's Jewish population and over five millions others.[a][c] The murders were carried out in pogroms and mass shootings; by a policy of extermination through work in concentration camps; and in gas chambers and gas vans in German extermination camps, chiefly Auschwitz, Bełżec, Chełmno, Majdanek, Sobibór, and Treblinka in occupied Poland.[4]


Eurogil (talk) 12:53, 26 February 2020 (UTC)eurogilEurogil (talk) 12:53, 26 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Can Category:Holocaust survivors be used for non-Jews?

Ex. survivors of concentration camps that don't have a dedicated subcategory yet. (Context: I removed this from [1] per WP:OVERCAT and then I started wondering if it would be allowed if the Category:Buchenwald concentration camp survivors did not exist? Thoughts? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:20, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure why this was asked here instead of somewhere else where it's more relevant (category pages or a noticeboard or a wikiproject). The answer is going to be "it depends on what the sources call the article subject". If no sources call the subject a Holocaust survivor, the category wouldn't be supported. If sources do call them that, then the category is supported and should be used. --Ealdgyth (talk) 14:01, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Non-Jewish victims

If they are not going to be even mentioned in the lead ([2]) then the entire section on The_Holocaust#Other_victims_of_Nazi_persecution should be deleted, as it is off topic to this article. If it is relevant and kept, then the mention of other victims should be restored in the lead. Lead should summarize main sections of the article, or such sections are undue here, it's one or the other. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:32, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This has been repeatedly discussed in the past...check the archives. The inclusion is minority position and thus is discussed in the body, while it does not need mention in the very first paragraph of the lead as if it was a consensus view among scholars, which is what the edit that was reverted said. --Ealdgyth (talk) 04:57, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the lead should not adapt said minority positions, but correct me I am wrong, right now it does not summarize this position anywhere? WP:SUMMARY is quite clear that if something is important enough to warrant a section it should get a sentence or so in the lead. So either this info should be added to the lead somewhere, or this entire section is undue and must go. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:39, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Um, it is in the lead. The fourth paragraph. I’m assuming that you read the entire lead before bring this up on the talk page? --Ealdgyth (talk) 10:40, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Canvass for opinion

I'm canvassing for opinions of editors on a Request Move [name change] at Rescue of the Bulgarian Jews. The discussion (with explanation) is here: Talk:Rescue_of_the_Bulgarian_Jews#Requested_move_17_April_2020. GPinkerton (talk) 23:12, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@GPinkerton: I suggest using a different term, as WP:CANVASSING usually has a negative connotation on Wikipedia. François Robere (talk) 10:32, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@François Robere: Thanks, I checked there earlier and WP:APPNOTE suggests a note on a related talk page is within bounds. I'm not campaigning; the discussion is self-explanatory. GPinkerton (talk) 15:02, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@GPinkerton: It is indeed, I'm just suggesting you use a different terminology so as not to be associated with that particular meaning. François Robere (talk) 16:30, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AThe_Holocaust&type=revision&diff=952121961&oldid=951922112