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The "Serious concerns with" section added September 27, 2005 does not pertain directly to Saddleback Church so much as the author's personal opinions about Rick Warren and the "Purpose Driven" movement. I have changed the title to "Opposition, concerns" do to the unduly prejudicial tone it invoked.

I do not believe this amount of editorializing is appropriate, and should be at the least reduced to a few relevant concerns. As is, the "opposition" section is as big as the general explanation.

Further, a section is already present in the entry for Purpose Driven Purpose_Driven I propose shorting the section to a reference (as it is in the Purpose Driven entry) instead of a list of redundant, critical links.

Please sign your posts on talk pages.

Agree this article needs work. The section of links to critics is actually longer than the text of the article! Ridiculous. It shows that some don't like this particular church, but I think we knew that. Andrewa 23:25, 5 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I can see how it would be entirely appropriate to have criticisms and debates within a Wikipedia article. I wonder, however, if the links section in this article goes too far. In fact, for the individual who is expressing his opinions through them, I think that s/he would find it far more useful to boil it down to one or two powerful links, thus appearing more neutral.

Just one user's thoughts... --Jelgie 18:42, 22 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I´ve put some new information concerning the subject purposed, that I think is give real information about this institution. Of course, everybody has the right to make critics, but both sides must be heard. Se ya, from Brazil!— Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.186.80.19 (talk • contribs)

The continuous references to "God" expanding this or that ministry in this (Saddleback) church is clearly POV by any reading of Wikipedia's policy. I have to wonder how many readers would even be offended by it.

If anyone argues that it is not POV but "fact", please consider this: What if I said that it was really Satan driving the expansion of this church? Wouldn't someone (rightfully) point out that that was POV?

On a personal note, I think it is foolish, dangerous, and disrespectful to ascribe the success of a particular church to "God". How dare you! InFairness 05:58, 11 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"How dare you!" seems a teeny bit extreme. I guess I'm just not that shocked at my fellow Christians (or Muslims or Jews for that matter) ascribing their church's success to God. Or do you see the only intelligent, safe and respectful view as one that is secularly based?;)

We Christians come at things from a different paradigm. And I think folks of different faiths who live in a pluralistic society are all mature enough to realize that us making claims of the God-based nature of worldly successes (just as they do) does not equal disrespect. It equals faith.

In any case, might it be better to remove and annotate what you believe is POV rather than remove the entire contribution of the author? Is there not any content that you felt could be kept in your revision of the article rather than a mass delete? I was tempted to revise it myself before you deleted. It just seems rather "unwiki-ish" to undo everything a contributor did. But I am new at this so this is newby feedback. It just seems more in-line with what I've read about how wikipedia works.

All the best!--Jelgie 07:08, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, really don't wanna get involved with this article, but... while it may be true that Left Behind does take place in the end times and does involve people getting shot, "Ties to violent end times video game" is still POV. Two reasons: (a) It's arbirtrary that you chose to draw attention to these two facts to the exlcusion of others. It could also be described just as accurately as "Ties to modern-era real-time strategy game", or even "Ties to video game which has lots of concrete." An anti-concrete activist would be particularly offended by such a game, and would want to make sure that everyone knows that Saddleback has ties to such a debacle. So, the fact that two particular aspects of the game are being highlighted displays a POV on the game itself. (b) "Violence" is a relative term. I'm sure Left Behind is less violent than, say, Grand Theft Auto. Actually, I'm sure it's less violent than the Bible. So, to use it implies a judgment on the game which is extraordinarily difficult to make objectively. Hope this helps. Korossyl 13:25, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• This is so totally slanted, and has no historical significance — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.32.247.221 (talk • contribs) 03:59, 20 September 2006

What is this about? I can't seem to find anything on it and I'm curious. Strawberry Island 07:54, 19 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This has been moved from the article for discussion.

Saddleback is currently one of the most well-known and influential churches in the world.http://www.inplainsite.org/html/saddleback_church.html

I don't think the source could be considered a reliable one. [www.inplainsite.org www.inplainsite.org] doesn't indicate in any way that it is anything other than one person's website.[1] A google search for the author of the piece, David Cloud, shows that he has nothing in his background to make this kind of claim valid. In fact, his writings are apparently controversial in themselves.[2] For this kind of claim, it requires a source with some editorial oversight and fact-checking. Pairadox (talk) 07:08, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There a still some problems with this statement. Currently the reference source is the website of the Saddleback Church [3]. NPOV? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.214.37.243 (talk) 17:26, 16 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think what the church teaches shouyld be discussed. This includes beliefs on science/evolution and creationism and that pastors incorrectly claim humans lived with dinosaurs.

On Saddleback Church website: he wrote the following on the evolution (mispellings in original):

31. Is evolotion part of God's plan?

Question: Why is it not OK for evolution to be part of God’s plan? I don’t understand what the problem is: couldn’t God have used the process of evolution as the way that He created the earth?

Answer: When I was a new believer in Christ, I had some very strong feelings about the issue of evolution. Much as you have expressed, I believed that evolution and the account of the Bible about creation could exist along side of each other very well. I just didn't see what the big argument was all about. I had some friends who had been studying the Bible much longer than I had who saw it differently. But they didn't push me or argue with me, they simply challenged me to take some time to look into the facts and study the issues carefully. I'll always appreciate them for that, because this was an issue that I had to really think through. Eventually, I came to the conclusion, through my study of the Bible and science, that the two positions of evolution and creation just could not fit together... that there are some real problems with the idea that God created through evolution.

I would encourage you to take some time to study this issue. I found that, although I'd understood the science side of the equation, I needed to take some more time to read what the Bible really had to say about this subject. Not having taken the time to really read the Bible, I was very ignorant about what it had to say. Let me give you one example. I discovered that the problem of sin, as addressed in the Bible, was much more serious than I had previously thought. When I realized that the world was clearly a perfect place as God created it, and that this perfection was ruined by the sinful choice of Adam and Eve, it really started me thinking. Did the Bible teach evolution or did it teach the creation of a first man and woman named Adam and Eve? If we evolved, which human being would have made the choice that brought sin into this world? If Adam and Eve were just allegorical pictures, why did the New Testament place some much importance upon them as responsible and real individuals? Since God clearly says that it is our sin that brought death into our world, how could there have been death for billions of years before the arrival of the first man who sinned on the earth? As I asked questions about this issue and studied what the Bible had to say, I found it to be one of the greatest times of learning in my life as a new believer. My prayer is that you will have this same experience!

...

If you want to study this further... Here's a web site that you might want to check out: http://web.archive.org/web/20051118164840/http://www.probe.org/content/section/13/67/ (One article that is especially thought provoking discusses "Darwin's Black Box").

On the website FAQ about dinosaurs:

30. What about dinosaurs? Question: How do they fit in with the idea that God created the world rather than the world evolving on it’s own? Why doesn’t the Bible talk about dinosaurs?

Answer: The Bible tells in Genesis 1 that God made the world in 7 days, and that He made all of the animals on the 5th day and the 6th day. All of the animals were created at the same time, so they all walked the earth at the same time. I know that the pictures we all grew up with in the movies were that dinosaurs roamed a lifeless, volcanic planet. Remember these are just pictures drawn by someone today! The Bible's picture is that dinosaurs and man lived together on the earth, an earth that was filled with vegetation and beauty.

What happened to the dinosaurs? The scientific record lets us know that they obviously became extinct through some kind of cataclysmic event on the earth. Many scientists theorize that this may have been an asteroid striking the earth, while many Christians wonder if this event could have been the worldwide flood in Noah's day. No one can know for certain what this event was.

Although it cannot be stated with certainty, it appears that dinosaurs may have actually been mentioned in the Bible. The Bible uses names like "behemoth" and "tannin." Behemoth means kingly, gigantic beasts. Tannin is a term that includes dragon-like animals and the great sea creatures such as whales, giant squid, and marine reptiles like the plesiosaurs that may have become extinct. The Bible's best description of a dinosaur-like animal is in Job, chapter 40. We don't know for certain if these are actually dinosaurs or are some other large creatures that became extinct. ...

In 2007 interview Warren said:

Do you believe Creation happened in the way Genesis describes it?

WARREN: If you're asking me do I believe in evolution, the answer is no, I don't. I believe that God, at a moment, created man. I do believe Genesis is literal, but I do also know metaphorical terms are used. Did God come down and blow in man's nose? If you believe in God, you don't have a problem accepting miracles. So if God wants to do it that way, it's fine with me.

This aspect of religion and opinion on science is important in describing their beliefs. Tgreach (talk) 02:54, 29 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is this belief notable though? Many evangelicals (especially pastors) would agree with him. He didn't come up with these beliefs. Its standard conservative evangelicalism. Ltwin (talk) 05:11, 7 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Malicious editors are adding in the term "Saddlebacking", which is not a ubiquitously recognized neologism, but rather a derrogatory sexual term made up in the past few days. It isn't notable, and it's not encyclopedic. The only reference (The economist) notes that, at the time of publication, the word didn't even have a definition. It needs to be removed, and the users blocked from editing this page.--Lyonscc (talk) 05:00, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]