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Use of Trudeau's picture

I prefer the PM's picture. This scandal is about him, not the former AG who was allegedly pressured Legacypac (talk) 21:03, 7 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Editor preference does not matter. This is first, an allegation; that alone should give any Wikipedia editor pause. Wikipedia is not in the business of creating content which becomes a political soapbox. This is not about Trudeau but is an allegation which may include Trudeau. The main subject of this allegation and story is Jody Wilson-Raybould. Placing Trudeau's picture in the lead falsely places emphasis on Trudeau and this violates WP:UNDUE. But worse. It looks to me as if the content in the Trudeau article was changed from allegation to affair and then a new article created that links to "affair". Further there 's a good chance we have some meat and or sock puppets at work here. This is not a good scenario as far as Wikipedia is concerned and points to someone or someones trying to weight content against an individual. Littleolive oil (talk) 21:20, 7 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

User:Littleolive oil you appear to be well over 3RR on this article and you can not revert my talkpage comments on some nonsense BLP basis. Restore my comments. Legacypac (talk) 22:38, 7 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Even CNN is talking about how this could end the Trudeau PMship. These allegations are all about the PM and his staff not about the former AG. It is pretty obvious there is an "affair" which is a typical word in Canada to describe this kind of story. Legacypac (talk) 22:42, 7 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The page is well written and accurately describes what the scandal is about based on credible references. The scandal is about PM Justin Trudeau and his administration hence the PM's picture. The term SNC-Lavalin affair accurately describes the event, Canadian media, the general public use SNC-Lavalin affair or scandal or controversy even American media including the New York Times use SNC-Lavalin affair. User:Littleolive oil pointing to sockpuppets or meatpuppets for content that you disagree with or makes you uncomfortable doesn't work here. Are you from the PMO or sympathetic with the PMO? or both? that could explain things. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr.Gold1 (talk • contribs) 22:54, 7 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The number of newer accounts, SPAs, and IPs who appeared to undo edits is striking. BLP also refers to talk pages and there are a few good admins who will make that kind of call. I have no idea what PMO is but I am a long time editor and I see political POV here. There is a trail which clearly indicates POV editing and I will be happy to note its path. There is no scandal per the encyclopedia and that's the problem; there are allegations and an encyclopedia is not in the business of laying blame which you certainly are. Littleolive oil (talk) 23:10, 7 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

PMO = Prime Minister's Office. The advent of many different editors relates to the fact this scandal is in the headlines not just in Canada but abroad. The POV pusher here is Littleolive oil. Also restore my talkpage comments. Legacypac (talk) 23:28, 7 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm happy to take this to a Notice Board; we can track the changes. When an article is bombarded with SPA editors and IPs then several things can happen. One is page protection. I have no trouble in being blocked for bringing this forward in such a way that attention is placed on my edits. I generally stay with 1 RR but lost track here; that's my problem. I have RL issues to deal with but will look at this again tomorrow. Littleolive oil (talk) 23:43, 7 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• and by the way no, I have no connection to Trudeau or his office and cannot vote in Canada so I have no reason to slant the article. What I do have is a position on these topics which allows me to see bias when it shows up. Believe me I have no desire to get embroiled in this article but a path of crumbs led one step to the next and at the end when I did a little research was Trudeau and surprise, an election. Well! Littleolive oil (talk) 00:06, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

and further. No, this isn't about Trudeau. This is the problem with your comments here and with the way images have been positioned on the article page. This isn't about Trudeau yet and maybe ever; its about an allegation made by another person about the Prime Minister's office. And that is the scandal. No source says Trudeau is guilty of this. What the sources say is that an individual made an allegation about the PM's office. This means as I understand it, the Liberal party could be impacted in the next election and so too the PM. This is about Trudeau by extension at this point and yet here and on the article page with out sources you and others are trying to say this is about Trudeau rather than the allegation and the woman who this is really about. This is biased editing whether knowingly or not Littleolive oil (talk) 00:45, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hello everyone! I've done quite a bit of research for this article initially, especially around SNC legal proceedings, and read almost everything on the affair. I was more concentrating on legal aspects of SNC-Lavalin process, but if ask me about the picture, I think Trudeau's picture is most appropriate. It's about PM allegedly pressuring JWR to bend the law for SNC. He pretty much admitted it in the latest press conference. Butts is his closest friend and he resigned. And it's not only about pressuring JWR, there's a whole campaign here that started in 2015 and clearly led by Trudeau and his office, not the cabinet, to bend the laws and regulations in various ways to get SNC off the hook. Trudeau initiated DPA legislation, reviews of Integrity Regime, etc. So, this is a long-running affair to cover corrupt SNC, not just a single allegation, and Trudeau is at the center of it. (disclosure: I'm a Canadian interested in law and politics; don't work for any politicians or government, try to maintain neutral point of view.)PavelShk (talk) 01:11, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

CNN headlines: A political scandal surrounding Canadian PM Justin Trudeau. What's going on? [1] Trudeau: Crisis deepens as second minister quits [2] and from global "‘Canada’s golden boy loses his shine’: Headlines from around the world on Trudeau, SNC-Lavalin" [3] with a rundown of major media headlines all of which are about the PM. Legacypac (talk) 01:25, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As editors we have to have some ability to discriminate. It's clear to me that the impetus here is to implicate Trudeau in some kind fo wrongdoing. The sources do not say Trudeau was doing wrong what they say is there is a scandal which could by extension extend to him. Without the woman in this case there is nothing. However, I have no interest in repeating this argument nor do I have an interest in including anyone else in this. Given the IP who even reverted a compromised version on the article page and given that those here have dug in their heels, I'll leave you to it. Littleolive oil (talk) 01:43, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Trudeau's picture should not be included in the lede because it directly implicates him (as a person, rather than his administration) in the absence of evidence. It would not be consistent with the treatment of other Canadian political scandals listed on Wikipedia here, none of which have images of the prime minister (or other involved person) in the lede. The correct way to handle this is to add the SNC-Lavalin affair to the "Prime Minister of Canada" section of the Template:Trudeau sidebar and include the sidebar in this article. This is the way that political scandals under Stephen Harper have been handled. For evidence, see: Template:Harper sidebar Bueller 007 (talk) 14:35, 10 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I remember reading a recent article that SNC was charged in 2016 (?) with excessive illegal campaign donations, mostly to the liberal party. I believe it is relevant and provides context, but am not sure how best to include. Plus all the references I can find are columnists, and I believe an article would be better. Harris Seldon (talk) 04:36, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

- thanks to Mr.Gold1 for finding and adding this Harris Seldon (talk) 10:36, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

- thanks to Harris Seldon after seeing your post, remembered this story and researched it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr.Gold1 (talk • contribs) 19:52, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This is coat rack content. This is another issue altogether. If you want an article on this topic start another article but you cannot use this article to make connections not made in the sources. If there is some connection in a source, you can make the connection and add content per the weight the source mentions it in relationship to this topic. AS a note: columnists are not usually RS for Wikipedia. Littleolive oil (talk) 16:51, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Columnist from major newspapers are reliable sources and some of them are the best investigative jouralists around. Opinion columns (editorials) need to be treated more carefully. Legacypac (talk) 17:53, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP: RS "Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (op-eds) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact." Bold mine. Littleolive oil (talk) 18:04, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is that this and other articles related to this situation are subtly and perhaps sometimes not so subtly slanted towards a critical position on Trudeau and the Liberal government in Canada. There are multiple ways this is done and I've seen lots of it over the years. At this point in time the content in these articles is too established and convoluted for me to want to even touch and as I said above the number of editors SPA and IPs who suddenly appear to make sure Trudeau's position is viewed as negatively as possible is very clear to someone who has recently and unfortunately come onto the scene. I won't deal with this kind of editor; its a losing battle since as one disappears another takes his/her place. A clear indication of biased editing is that as long as the content is the way they -SPA, IP- like it they do not discuss and will continue to revert probably tag teaming until they have a preferred position. As a Canadian, although no longer a resident I find this sad, maybe deplorable and a black mark against us all. Littleolive oil (talk) 18:30, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Per this: "in a move(by whom? non encyclopedic language) (widely... non encyclopedic, weasel) seen as a demotion" True means nothing on Wikipedia for heaven's sake... it wasn't sourced in the source given... just source it rather than edit war. Littleolive oil (talk) 19:37, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Your POV pushing edits need to stop. The statement is both true, easily supported with many sources, and further referenced in the last sentence of the paragraph where the former AG and the PM came out denying it was a demotion. If it was not widely deemed a promotion like all the sources say, then why did the PM deny it publically? If you are going to edit this page you need to check your POV at the door and start reading and adding sources instead of just removing stuff you don't like on flimsy excesses. Legacypac (talk) 19:55, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I missed the actual quote in the article. You are assuming bad faith and have since I first entered this discussion accusing me of coming from the PMO. Further, Some of your other arguments are not supported by the way this encyclopedia operates... "True", is not an argument. As I said, the subtle POV in the article is noticeable to anyone not involved here. Littleolive oil (talk) 21:02, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

- for what it's worth, it is a direct quote from the original BBC source given (paragraph 16: "Ms Wilson-Raybould was attorney general and justice minister until January, when she was shuffled into the veterans affairs portfolio, a move widely seen as a demotion.") (emphasis mine). Harris Seldon (talk) 20:07, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, I missed that. Even so an over arching statement like this probably needs multiple sources to support "widely" Littleolive oil (talk) 21:02, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

So the claim it was not in the source is incorrect. I just went looking for more sources. Could have added 50. Legacypac (talk) 20:11, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Then maybe add more, or point out I missed something rather than accuse. I've removed these articles from my watch list. I have no desire to deal with the stuff going on here with you and the IPs, SPA, and if you decide to go to a notice board I doubt the IP action, SPA action, and the subtle POV editing will impress anyone. No interest in continuing. Littleolive oil (talk) 21:02, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Good glad my warning worked. Legacypac (talk) 21:04, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the articles from my watch list late this morning before your warning/threat and responded here because of a notice. Your warning meant nothing; it was ignorant, attempted to threaten and was patronizing and had I the time I would take you and the IPs and SPA to ANI myself. The overlap of the edits by all would give pause at ANI. Truth is I don't care to fight these fights anymore and especially with what is going on here. I have no need to support Trudeau as you seem to suggest. For heaven's sake if his position depends on Wikipedia he's dead in the water. Why would I waste my time dealing with a world leader here. That fact that what you see in my edits threatens what you are doing and is seen a somehow important to Trudeau may be something you should look at in terms of your own editing. I truly wish you well on these articles and hope they can be edited fairly. Littleolive oil (talk) 21:26, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This is overkill trying to make a point and so POV.

During Justice Committee hearings, Wilson-Raybould testified on what she claims was a consistent and sustained effort by members within government to politically interfere in her duty as Attorney General in an "inappropriate effort to secure a deferred prosecution agreement with SNC-Lavalin".[4]

• On multiple levels this, "inappropriate effort to secure a deferred prosecution agreement with SNC-Lavalin" added to the lead is a problem. First, quotes in a lead emphasize a single source which can create undue weight. The quote is a point of view position on what went on and is not appropriate in Wikipedia's voice. Added to "consistent and sustained effort" - more emphasis on the allegation - and we have a good example of WP:Undue Weight on that position and so POV first because a position on the allegation is being overly emphasized and second because this is a lead which should summarize in a neutral way. I'd add I have concerns with this article that although well written and some of the POV edits I was concerned with in the past have been adjusted, there is still a lot of coat rack content, that is, content that goes into too much detail on the auxiliary information on this allegation. I, as I said before, will not spend a lot of time dealing with this given ownership issues with some of the editors here but at the very least I hope there is an effort to try and keep the content itself neutral. Littleolive oil (talk) 16:02, 21 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I understand your comments, especially about the lede. I can assure you, this was a good faith edit trying to achieve the following:

• the phrase "by offering SNC-Lavalin a DPA" is not quite accurate, as it implies the concerns/allegations are about offering a DPA, when Wilson Raybould's testimony is about influencing / pressuring the attorney general to make a specific decision.
• to attempt a neutral perspective, I used the phrase "inappropriate effort to secure a deferred prosecution agreement with SNC-Lavalin" as this is a direct quote from Wilson-raybould's testimony, provides her POV and therefore less subject to distortion.

Reading it again, I acknowledge it may give undue weight, and so would propose the following as a compromise to address your concerns, and accurately reflect her testimony:

During Justice Committee hearings, Wilson-Raybould testified on what she claims was a consistent and sustained effort by members within government to politically interfere in her duty as Attorney General by pressuring her to offer SNC-Lavalin a deferred prosecution agreement. Harris Seldon (talk) 17:19, 21 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Consistent and sustained is what creates the the pressure so using the phrase beginning "pressuring" along with the words sustained and consistent is POV in my opinion. I would suggest, Wilson-Raybould testified on what she says was an effort by members within government to politically interfere in her duty as Attorney General by pressuring her to offer SNC-Lavalin a deferred prosecution agreement.

• "says" instead of "claims" per WP:MOSWTW. I'd like to use either "consistent and sustained..." or "by pressuring her..." but not both which is still overkill and makes a point which we don't want to do per NPOV. Thanks for your efforts to discuss this. Littleolive oil (talk) 17:41, 21 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• I think says goes too light, as this is testimony; 'says' implies a less formal discussion. And can be too vague - better to restructure the sentence to eliminate the word entirely?

• pressure can be either one time or multiple times. In this case, her testimony states there were multiple occurances over a 4 month period. Therefore I think we need to use something like e consistent or sustained, as it clarifies she is testifying there were many instances. 'Repeated' might be a more neutral option?

So how about the following:

During Justice Committee hearings, Wilson-Raybould testified regarding efforts by various members within government to politically interfere in her duty as Attorney General by pressuring her to offer SNC-Lavalin a deferred prosecution agreement.

Admittedly, this is a multifaceted topic, that generates a lot of controversy (and corresponding emotion). Glad we can talk about it. Harris Seldon (talk) 18:32, 21 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think your last version (above) is fine.

Change made Harris Seldon (talk) 19:26, 21 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The phrase "politically interfere" doesn't really mean anything with out explanation so I removed it. It's also redundant. If the AG's work was interfered with this might have political motives, and we have that information in the lead. Also, "politically interfere" is taken right from the source; its not a copy violation but runs close. This was an opinion with out proof, no matter who said it so I'd suggest it should not be included Littleolive oil (talk) 18:10, 23 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I would keep it as politically interfere. The source of this phrase is JWR's own testimony, which the reference copies word for word with no editorializing (other than the choice of which Q&A at the hearing to include). In her testimony, JWR states the reasons given to her included the unfavourable impact on both the upcoming provincial and federal election, and the need to get reelected. Her testimony indicates politically motivated interference (as opposed to personally motivated or an altruistic motivation). i believe adding that level of detail here for the reasons she calls it political would give it undue weight, and so keeping just the word political captures the thought without too much emphasis too early. Also, removal of the word political could have the opposite effect and not maintain NPOV by downplaying the significance of her testimony. (Which is why my preference is always to use the speaker's words/phrasing when practical.)

keep in mind, the objective of this sentence is to describe the content of the AG's testimony, and that testimony is given at a parliamentary hearing (which is not the same as a court of law). In any case, the next sentence in the article gives the government's response after JWR's testimony, which is their offset and counter balance to her statements. Harris Seldon (talk) 20:15, 23 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

also note this is a good faith reply to give some of my thinking and to help maintain a neutral pov for a complex potentially polarizing ongoing subject Harris Seldon (talk) 20:23, 23 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"...politically interfere" doesn't make sense grammatically. Politically is the adverb and adverbs generally follow the verb which in this case is interfere. The source is quoting but the grammatical use is weak no matter who uses it. If we want to say the interference was politically motivated we should say it in just those words and add "according to" because the topic is an allegation so we shouldn't making that kind of definitive statement in Wikipedia's voice and in the lead. We could also say, interfered politically, but its weaker and in and of itself doesn't have a lot of information. In the lead we want to be able to summarize the content succinctly so using content that we have to then explain is counter productive. Quoting in the lead is not a great idea; it places undo weight on the speaker and in this case since the speaker is alleging wrongdoing we shouldn't be supporting that position or any other by quoting. I'd like to emphasize that I assume good faith of editors. The subject is just another Wikipedia article; sometimes keeping that in mind keeps content neutral. Littleolive oil (talk) 21:55, 23 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There has been some editing back and forth on this one in order to keep a NPOV. It would probably be better to move this to the TALK page and try to come to a consensus rather than just changing the article back and forth.

I'll start:

There does not appear to be any disagreement over the supported facts that there was a leak and what information was leaked. Where the differences start is over the statement The CTV report suggest the Prime Minister could have had reasons unrelated to the SNC-Lavalin affair for moving Wilson-Raybould out of the Justice portfolio. The reference is a realiable source, but this sounds like an opinion of and an interpretation of the facts, as there is no proof that this was a reason and it conflicts with previous statements made by the PM and Butts regarding why JWR was replaced. Also, it was only reported by some news sources (CBC, maybe CP) and not others. Personally, I would remove this statement completely, let the facts speak for themselves and allow the reader to interpret as they like, but others feel strongly this sentence should be kept.

Therefore, in order to maintain a balanced view, a different interpretation of the same facts was added, from reliable sources such as Macleans, National Post, Globe and Mail. This interpretation is also consistent with the facts, but is a different conclusion. Yet these views have been removed as partisan opinion that has not been proven.

So I guess what I'm not clear on is why is the statement The CTV report says the Prime Minister could have had reasons unrelated to the SNC-Lavalin affair for moving Wilson-Raybould out of the Justice portfolio is considered a NPOV fact. But the statement Andrew Coyne questioned this conclusion, pointing out that Trudeau had original claimed Wilson-Raybould would "still be [Attorney-General] today" had Scott Brison not resigned and necessitated a cabinet shuffle. or Paul Wells of Maclean's suggested the leak was an attempt to damage Wilson-Raybould and as an excuse to remove her from the Liberal caucus in the future. are biased opinions that we should wait to see if it's proven correct.Harris Seldon (talk) 06:32, 1 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As an aside, the original CTV article does not include this suggestion, and the reference supporting it is a CBC article (which does make the suggestion) Harris Seldon (talk) 06:32, 1 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps a compromise solution would be to phrase it like this?

The CTV report suggests the Prime Minister could have had reasons unrelated to the SNC-Lavalin affair for moving Wilson-Raybould out of the Justice portfolio, although this is inconsistent with Trudeau's original statements that Wilson-Raybould would "still be [Attorney-General] today" had Scott Brison not resigned and necessitated a cabinet shuffle.Harris Seldon (talk) 06:32, 1 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This reasoning is WP: Original Research and is something we might discuss on a talk page but is not encyclopedic and cannot be added to an article unless we have a source which specifically makes this argument. The content in the CTV report is verifiable and reliable. Whether it is of appropriate weight is something I haven't yet checked but it is at the very least worth one line. If there are more sources making this position it is worth more. Further, beginning the statement with "says" is neutral "suggests" is not because within our content we are adding a word that questions the complete validity of the content in the source. I will readd says. Littleolive oil (talk) 14:48, 1 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I see the article has been adjusted; the content from the CTV report has been moved into another paragraph while content has been added to refute the statement. This is burying the content. Littleolive oil (talk) 15:28, 1 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I understand the CTV article is verifiable and reliable, but as far as I can tell so are the National Post and Macleans articles. They seem to meet the criteria of verifiable and reliable and WP:NEWSORG. Both are published, well-established news orgs considered reliable, written by well known respected journalists that can be considered primary sources. They have also been edited to show they are statements attributed to them. Harris Seldon (talk) 15:36, 1 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

moving the content from the CTV report to the following line is my bad... no intent to bury just to keep the disputed stuff together until this gets sorted out. Can reverse this one if you prefer.

The additional content you refer to are the original items that keep being removed and reinstated that led to this talk page topic. Harris Seldon (talk) 15:45, 1 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You originally removed the content which is why I wrote what I did concerning verifiability and reliability. Your suggestion above would have been OR. However, I see now that another user has added content to rebut the CTV report which with its placement buries the CTV content.

This is the problem I have with all of this. On the face of it we have content that reflects much of the press. But we are writing about an allegation. Wikipedia has become in this instance a summary of an allegation that is probably overweighted in the mostly Canadian Press against the PM in part because that's what sells, and a huge amount of what's in the press comes from the opposition parties, that sells too. Creating an article on an allegation gives that allegation substance it should not yet have. This allegation reflects indirectly on BLP content. We should never feel that Wikipedia has taken a position but it has when we write an article about one incident in living person's life and we weight that incident and content by creating a full article on the allegations. I note the number of editors without usernames and SP accounts, who have appeared quite suddenly (Trudeau article) and the accusations against me (Trudeau article) because I questioned POV. I don't have the time to fight this and there are too many accounts who would probably pop up to stand against my comments, but I am concerned. Wikipedia was not meant to reflect the positions of the popular press in real time as is happening with this article. This is a fundamental error, but one I am not prepared to fight. I am not questioning your integrity by the way just a mistaken direction, in my opinion, taken by many. I won't comment further at this time. I keep find myself in discussions these days with out the time to implement changes so best if I leave. Littleolive oil (talk) 16:07, 1 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The lead states: [SNC-Lavalin affair] is an ongoing political scandal in Canada involving alleged political interference and obstruction of justice by the Prime Minister's Office.

Can someone please provide a source that there was a credible allegation of obstruction of justice by the PMO, especially considering JWR says that no crime occurred? AdA&D ★ 00:12, 6 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think much of the commentary on this is that it is likely not "obstruction of justice" or "perverting the course of justice" as Justin Trudeau is Prime Minister. Most have characterize this as political interference in a criminal investigation (as opposed to obstruction/perversion). There does appear to be a debate among legal expert though about whether it amounts to criminal conduct (ie. obstruction). So it is probably appropriate for us to refer to it as "alleged" political interference and/or obstruction, as we now are. It could be obstruction, or it could not be, but some people are certainly saying the conduct could amount to obstruction if proven. See [4], [5] and [6] as examples of reporting considering this obstruction angle.--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 00:33, 6 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I would probably remove the obstruction of justice reference. I don't recall any article extensively calling it obstruction of justice, except in passing. Plus it implies the affair/scandal is more about SNC getting a DPA or not, when it is actually more about interfering with the prosecutor decision. Harris Seldon (talk) 03:14, 6 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I just looked at Darryl Kerrigan's links and see there are articles discussing it as obstruction. Still, I think most of the focus is on the interference. I would still remove it, but we could change it to "possible obstruction of justice" ? Harris Seldon (talk) 03:19, 6 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There has been a lot of editing back and forth in this section, so I thought better to create a TALK section, to discuss and hopefully find a consensus on the right approach. As far as I can tell, the edits relate to trying to achieve a Neutral POV, and how that works in practice with this topic, given its complexity, controversial nature, and the strong opinions people have on both sides. As it stands now, I think this section fairly reflects the current situation, but I am willing to listen to the consensus on this one.

To me, one way to keep a balanced point of view is to use direct quotes wherever practical to avoid misinterpretation, incorrect paraphrasing or potential dilution of the speaker's original meaning. This may of course result in some sensationalist phrasing, but I think the article makes it clear when it is the speaker's words, and not the editor's. Also, there are other quotes and reactions reported in the press which have rightly not been included in this section which I believe are more sensationalist than the ones which are included here or are not notable.

To help maintain balance, this section (like most of the article) also contains the perspective of the Liberals, the opposition parties and the individuals involved. It might however look like undue weight, but the reality is there 2 or 3 opposition parties and 2 individuals compared to 1 Liberal party.

Either way, those are my thoughts for now on the approach for this section (and others), but I am interested in what the consensus has to say. Harris Seldon (talk) 12:30, 6 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Its not our job to make sure that each party has a say on Wikipedia. Wikipedia's concern is not with Canadian politics. It is our job to make sure that the information on the affair does not judge or weight any argument presented which would give the reader a biased view of the situation. The article must not hang Trudeau either. This is about allegations and our BLP policy indicates we must take great care in how we both present the information so that the reader has a clear unbiased view while at the same time "doing no harm."

Per WP: BLP

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives; the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment. This policy applies to any living person mentioned in a BLP, whether or not that person is the subject of the article, and to material about living persons in other articles and on other pages, including talk pages. The burden of evidence rests with the editor who adds or restores material.

For that reason we must use quotes if at all, very carefully because quoting can place emphasis and can be sensationalist which weights content. We summarize, in a way, all content we add. And we do the same with quotes. We have a Canadian election 7 month away if what I read is right and there seem to be a concerted effort to make Trudeau look as bad as possible in this and other articles. This is being done in part by very new accounts some of whom are single topic accounts that are adding content that is pejorative towards Trudeau. POV editing is a serious issue. POV editing in instances where a human being's life is being fiddled with is worse. Worse than that is if editors are being paid to do so. I have been very uncomfortable with some of the editing here. We have new editors adding pejorative content who with very few edits seem to have an unusually good knowledge of Wikipedia without the obvious experience. I'm not accusing anyone, but in particular this last round of editing on the Expulsion section has made me very uneasy. I have to run off but will be back later. These are initial thoughts. Littleolive oil (talk) 15:30, 6 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Or maybe this page is attracting casual and new editors because the topic is complex and in the news all the time? [7] is worth a read for background. Legacypac (talk) 21:36, 6 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Your bias is showing. Littleolive oil (talk) 21:53, 6 April 2019 (UTC) And by the way, of all of the sources I'v read this is the most biased in what is a conservative leaning newspaper; the author is stating as fact what is only surmised. This is why I am uneasy with those editing this article. Littleolive oil (talk) 22:27, 6 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No my bias is not showing because I linked an opinion piece that lays out some of the issues. It is good background, not a source. Your bias has long been obvious from your edits to the page. You are obviously a Liberal supporter. Legacypac (talk) 22:48, 6 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I don't live in Canada; I can't vote so no I'm not supporting anyone or anything. The article you linked me to assumes guilt. It's not a good background piece; it shows a heavily biased position. That someone would think it's either a good background education or that I would believe it is, is a concern. It shows more than any other sources I've read, a very one sided view and does so as if it's fact.

It's a mistake to assume that because an editor doesn't support what is in this case the Conservative position but instead tries to keep an article neutral, they must be in another camp. A common error made on contentious articles is for editors to see neutral as their position–as what they believe. From that position the neutral line is skewed towards the opinion of one side.

So we have two women who have been made to look as if they are saintly even heroic. One leaked a taped phone call she should not have recorded. Both women are instrumental in causing divisiveness in a party. The other party is pretty excited about that and this whole mess sells papers. The issue in some papers is being seen as a gender issue but it's not, it's about politics. Trudeau has always been a feminist and still is. Had these two women been men they would still be asked to leave the Liberal party to avoid a split in the party and one at least behaved in a way that does not engender trust–recording a conversation with a civil servant with out his permission is poor and erodes trust. This is a situation which could have been handled better by all involved. Both sides feel they are right and the sources show that. We have to show both sides with out taking a position of our own. I'm not convinced that is happening here. Littleolive oil (talk) 23:37, 6 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, so much to reply to! First of all, I want to compliment Littleolive oil on your commitment to WP:Retention by not directly naming these very new single topic accounts. I don't see any, but I trust you that they're there! I also want to thank you for avoiding directly accusing anyone of bad behaviour. I note that you've avoided directly [accusing] [anyone] [no] [fewer] [than] [seven] [times] that I can see on this page, which shows admirable restraint on your part- such accusations, absent actual evidence in the form of diffs, would surely be violating WP:AGF. However, I note from edit summaries that you've been removing others' contributions on talk pages, as well as warnings left on your own talk page, so I'm unable to be sure that it's only been seven times. Finally, I want to thank you for complimenting me on my "unusually good knowledge of Wikipedia". My process is, I read the relevant policy/how-to pages and remember what they say; then, when I do something, I refer back to them. I do dispute that the edits I made were "pejorative"; first of all, none of it insulted Trudeau or anyone else. Nobody called him any names. The edits, in their entirety, are direct quotes from major political leaders across the Canadian spectrum, specifically about the major event being discussed. These quotes were cited as being by the people who said them, not given Wikipedia's voice, and they were reliably sourced.

I want to say again that this is a major section; the expulsion of two high-profile Liberal MPs is just about as serious as the governing party can get. Far from being WP:UNDUE, this section deserves some significant expansion to cover the expulsion leadup and process, the aftermath, as well as reactions from public leaders who aren't politicians.

Now, regarding the article LegacyPac linked you to, Littleolive oil, (is there a short form you prefer?) you may not know this not being Canadian but Andrew Coyne is one of Canada's most well-known and respected journalists, across the political spectrum. He's also the former editor-in-chief of the National Post, before stepping down because (wait for it) the owners wouldn't allow him to publish a column in the last election asking voters to vote against the Conservative government. He is an eminently reputable and reliable source. And in this case, he's exactly right. The scandal is the attempt to politically interfere in the criminal process, to hide that interference, and to normalise it once it could no longer be hidden. The scandal is not that a man and two women disagreed on something, or someone recorded a phone call, or anything of that form. This is the SNC-Lavalin affair, not the Jody Wilson-Raybould affair.Safrolic (talk) 00:46, 7 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]