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Use of Trudeau's picture

I prefer the PM's picture. This scandal is about him, not the former AG who was allegedly pressured Legacypac (talk) 21:03, 7 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Editor preference does not matter. This is first, an allegation; that alone should give any Wikipedia editor pause. Wikipedia is not in the business of creating content which becomes a political soapbox. This is not about Trudeau but is an allegation which may include Trudeau. The main subject of this allegation and story is Jody Wilson-Raybould. Placing Trudeau's picture in the lead falsely places emphasis on Trudeau and this violates WP:UNDUE. But worse. It looks to me as if the content in the Trudeau article was changed from allegation to affair and then a new article created that links to "affair". Further there 's a good chance we have some meat and or sock puppets at work here. This is not a good scenario as far as Wikipedia is concerned and points to someone or someones trying to weight content against an individual. Littleolive oil (talk) 21:20, 7 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

User:Littleolive oil you appear to be well over 3RR on this article and you can not revert my talkpage comments on some nonsense BLP basis. Restore my comments. Legacypac (talk) 22:38, 7 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Even CNN is talking about how this could end the Trudeau PMship. These allegations are all about the PM and his staff not about the former AG. It is pretty obvious there is an "affair" which is a typical word in Canada to describe this kind of story. Legacypac (talk) 22:42, 7 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The page is well written and accurately describes what the scandal is about based on credible references. The scandal is about PM Justin Trudeau and his administration hence the PM's picture. The term SNC-Lavalin affair accurately describes the event, Canadian media, the general public use SNC-Lavalin affair or scandal or controversy even American media including the New York Times use SNC-Lavalin affair. User:Littleolive oil pointing to sockpuppets or meatpuppets for content that you disagree with or makes you uncomfortable doesn't work here. Are you from the PMO or sympathetic with the PMO? or both? that could explain things. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr.Gold1 (talk • contribs) 22:54, 7 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The number of newer accounts, SPAs, and IPs who appeared to undo edits is striking. BLP also refers to talk pages and there are a few good admins who will make that kind of call. I have no idea what PMO is but I am a long time editor and I see political POV here. There is a trail which clearly indicates POV editing and I will be happy to note its path. There is no scandal per the encyclopedia and that's the problem; there are allegations and an encyclopedia is not in the business of laying blame which you certainly are. Littleolive oil (talk) 23:10, 7 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

PMO = Prime Minister's Office. The advent of many different editors relates to the fact this scandal is in the headlines not just in Canada but abroad. The POV pusher here is Littleolive oil. Also restore my talkpage comments. Legacypac (talk) 23:28, 7 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm happy to take this to a Notice Board; we can track the changes. When an article is bombarded with SPA editors and IPs then several things can happen. One is page protection. I have no trouble in being blocked for bringing this forward in such a way that attention is placed on my edits. I generally stay with 1 RR but lost track here; that's my problem. I have RL issues to deal with but will look at this again tomorrow. Littleolive oil (talk) 23:43, 7 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• and by the way no, I have no connection to Trudeau or his office and cannot vote in Canada so I have no reason to slant the article. What I do have is a position on these topics which allows me to see bias when it shows up. Believe me I have no desire to get embroiled in this article but a path of crumbs led one step to the next and at the end when I did a little research was Trudeau and surprise, an election. Well! Littleolive oil (talk) 00:06, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

and further. No, this isn't about Trudeau. This is the problem with your comments here and with the way images have been positioned on the article page. This isn't about Trudeau yet and maybe ever; its about an allegation made by another person about the Prime Minister's office. And that is the scandal. No source says Trudeau is guilty of this. What the sources say is that an individual made an allegation about the PM's office. This means as I understand it, the Liberal party could be impacted in the next election and so too the PM. This is about Trudeau by extension at this point and yet here and on the article page with out sources you and others are trying to say this is about Trudeau rather than the allegation and the woman who this is really about. This is biased editing whether knowingly or not Littleolive oil (talk) 00:45, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hello everyone! I've done quite a bit of research for this article initially, especially around SNC legal proceedings, and read almost everything on the affair. I was more concentrating on legal aspects of SNC-Lavalin process, but if ask me about the picture, I think Trudeau's picture is most appropriate. It's about PM allegedly pressuring JWR to bend the law for SNC. He pretty much admitted it in the latest press conference. Butts is his closest friend and he resigned. And it's not only about pressuring JWR, there's a whole campaign here that started in 2015 and clearly led by Trudeau and his office, not the cabinet, to bend the laws and regulations in various ways to get SNC off the hook. Trudeau initiated DPA legislation, reviews of Integrity Regime, etc. So, this is a long-running affair to cover corrupt SNC, not just a single allegation, and Trudeau is at the center of it. (disclosure: I'm a Canadian interested in law and politics; don't work for any politicians or government, try to maintain neutral point of view.)PavelShk (talk) 01:11, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

CNN headlines: A political scandal surrounding Canadian PM Justin Trudeau. What's going on? [1] Trudeau: Crisis deepens as second minister quits [2] and from global "‘Canada’s golden boy loses his shine’: Headlines from around the world on Trudeau, SNC-Lavalin" [3] with a rundown of major media headlines all of which are about the PM. Legacypac (talk) 01:25, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As editors we have to have some ability to discriminate. It's clear to me that the impetus here is to implicate Trudeau in some kind fo wrongdoing. The sources do not say Trudeau was doing wrong what they say is there is a scandal which could by extension extend to him. Without the woman in this case there is nothing. However, I have no interest in repeating this argument nor do I have an interest in including anyone else in this. Given the IP who even reverted a compromised version on the article page and given that those here have dug in their heels, I'll leave you to it. Littleolive oil (talk) 01:43, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I remember reading a recent article that SNC was charged in 2016 (?) with excessive illegal campaign donations, mostly to the liberal party. I believe it is relevant and provides context, but am not sure how best to include. Plus all the references I can find are columnists, and I believe an article would be better. Harris Seldon (talk) 04:36, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

- thanks to Mr.Gold1 for finding and adding this Harris Seldon (talk) 10:36, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

- thanks to Harris Seldon after seeing your post, remembered this story and researched it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr.Gold1 (talk • contribs) 19:52, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This is coat rack content. This is another issue altogether. If you want an article on this topic start another article but you cannot use this article to make connections not made in the sources. If there is some connection in a source, you can make the connection and add content per the weight the source mentions it in relationship to this topic. AS a note: columnists are not usually RS for Wikipedia. Littleolive oil (talk) 16:51, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Columnist from major newspapers are reliable sources and some of them are the best investigative jouralists around. Opinion columns (editorials) need to be treated more carefully. Legacypac (talk) 17:53, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP: RS "Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (op-eds) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact." Bold mine. Littleolive oil (talk) 18:04, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is that this and other articles related to this situation are subtly and perhaps sometimes not so subtly slanted towards a critical position on Trudeau and the Liberal government in Canada. There are multiple ways this is done and I've seen lots of it over the years. At this point in time the content in these articles is too established and convoluted for me to want to even touch and as I said above the number of editors SPA and IPs who suddenly appear to make sure Trudeau's position is viewed as negatively as possible is very clear to someone who has recently and unfortunately come onto the scene. I won't deal with this kind of editor; its a losing battle since as one disappears another takes his/her place. A clear indication of biased editing is that as long as the content is the way they -SPA, IP- like it they do not discuss and will continue to revert probably tag teaming until they have a preferred position. As a Canadian, although no longer a resident I find this sad, maybe deplorable and a black mark against us all. Littleolive oil (talk) 18:30, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Per this: "in a move(by whom? non encyclopedic language) (widely... non encyclopedic, weasel) seen as a demotion" True means nothing on Wikipedia for heaven's sake... it wasn't sourced in the source given... just source it rather than edit war. Littleolive oil (talk) 19:37, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Your POV pushing edits need to stop. The statement is both true, easily supported with many sources, and further referenced in the last sentence of the paragraph where the former AG and the PM came out denying it was a demotion. If it was not widely deemed a promotion like all the sources say, then why did the PM deny it publically? If you are going to edit this page you need to check your POV at the door and start reading and adding sources instead of just removing stuff you don't like on flimsy excesses. Legacypac (talk) 19:55, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]