I do not emphasize failures at all. 90s years conflicts have affected economy, and should be included in the section. Your version ignores this. Why? If you think it is shameful that's not a reason . The only thing I removed is the inflation thing. 10% is nothing extraordinry for Georgia. You write in 2006 inflation spiked to 10, but how could it "spike" when usualy it is 7-8% (8.2 in 2005)? Also how was it reset when we still do not have 2007 data, if you speak of annual inflation (?). Although maybe there was a little "spike" somewhere by end 2006, but that did not have a great impact on the country, neither was that something unusual for Georgia's economy.Tamokk 00:20, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I don’t really think that a wholesale and somewhat a prejudiced ban on Sosomk’s changes is helpful. We can integrate both versions into a compromise one. I concur that Chavchavadze’s quotations are excessive in the economy section and the impact of the 90s conflicts should be mentioned, but Soso’s edits do have merit. Why should not we mention that Russian embargo contributed to the inflation rate but was outbalanced by foreign investments? Why the country’s Corruption Perceptions Index is being repeatedly deleted? Also, it is very strange that there is no mention of Georgia’s participation in the major Eurasian energetic projects such as the BTC pipeline.--Kober^Talk 05:15, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, energetic projects should be mentioned. I was not deleting corruption, just moving it to the government section. It would get lost through overlapping edits. I think corruption index should be in the gov section, but put it in the economy section if you insist. From Sosomks stock we can also add GDP growth. About 10% inflation I remain sceptical per the above. Tamokk 06:45, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

About E/A issue: I know that after independence Georgia's governments have pushed the idea that Georgia is a European country, not only politically but also culturally. But the boarder between E and A remains through the great Caucasus range, and Georiga is to the south of Caucasus. Although there are other geographical definitions, which may place significant portion of Georgia in Europe. I think the compromise here would be Georgia's "transcontinental" location and that mention of the cultural or socio-political stuff. I see that technically the other version does not imply that Georgia is necessaryly in Europe too, but agree that it is clumsy and still partial. Tamokk 07:05, 21 May 2007 (UTC) is that right![reply]

First, it would be really great if everyone could calm down a little. I've just found out about this dispute, and it seems to me that there really isn't very much disagreement about citable facts, just about how Russia, in particular, is presented.

I think it would help if we could agree on some things, in the context of the economy section:

• say what has happened, not what is happening - whether it's economic growth, moving up or down various index ranks, or just becoming a more service-based economy, all of those things are somewhat hard to establish until a year or two after the fact.
• say what has happened, not why it happened - in particular, in this case, I'm not sure at all how a high inflation rate is "offset" by a high investment rate; that those two things coexist might be rare, particularly in Europe, and should be mentioned.
• focus on the undisputed facts, and the basic numbers; don't assume that readers are aware of the size of Georgia's population, for example.

That said, what appears to me, and do feel free to disagree with me here, to be the basic data is this:

1. Georgia's economy is in post-Soviet transition to a market economy.
2. praise from the World Bank
3. very low per-capita GDP
4. unemployment rate
5. high inflation rate, by Western standards, of 10 % p.a.
6. 8% trade surplus.
7. GDP growth of 10% p.a./8.8% p.a. - high (which number is correct?)
8. flat income tax rate - and it's working out for them.
9. dispute with Russia over (economically significant? what's the number?) wine imports.

I think those can be spun into a short, and working, economy section that should be acceptable to everyone. Pre-Soviet statements might be more appropriate for the history section. The pipelines probably should be mentioned. I'm not sure what the point of mentioning "median income" is - compared to (other) European countries, Georgian incomes are low by any measure. Similarly, the government budget appears as an isolated number with no obvious value to the reader.

I don't think this section should focus on the political issues - that it was parliament that introduced the flat income tax rate is hardly relevant; mentioning the Rose revolution as a temporal point of reference is unnecessarily difficult for readers who can't place that event. If the wine business is to be treated as a full-blown economic crisis, it needs much more expansion; my understanding is it's primarily a political crisis.

In summary, I don't get what the dispute is about - the facts are not seriously disputed, the economic causation statements that might be disputed just shouldn't be there, and the sections also read about the same.

The straw poll below, though, is hardly worth anything. It's set up very clearly to be more about the editors than about the article's actual content.

RandomP 11:42, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is hard to say what will be acceptable to the political POV editor Sosomk, when even the trivial issue of geographic location of the country was nothing but a political issue for him. Let us just improve the current version. The poll below does not make sense. Tamokk 05:36, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wine dispute is of course rather political. Economically it is less significant. Tamokk 05:40, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I decided that the only way to resolve the dispute is voting. I think the economy section that I wrote is really good and the one offered by User:Tamokk is inappropriate because 1) Has limited citations and incorrect data, 2) Is not written well: meaning that it does not explain facts from the point of view of economics, as a social science (for example, when it says n 2006 Russia banned imports of Georgian wine. Russia has also occasionally cut natural gas supply to the country, harming its economy. does not explain how it affected the economy and its supply & demand. It just shows the claim and does not explain the fact. and 3) Simply is misleading.

The version which was very well liked by the Administrators like User:Aecis:

Archaeological research demonstrates that Georgia has been involved in commerce with the majority of the world's historical empires largely due its location on the Black Sea and later on the historical Silk Road.^[1] Throughout Georgia's history agriculture and tourism have been principal economic sectors, due to the country's climate and topography.^[2] For much of the 20th century, Georgia's economy was governed by the Soviet command model. Since the fall of the USSR in 1991, Georgia has seen major structural reform designed to transition to a free market economy. In 2006 Georgia's real GDP growth rate reached 8.8%, making Georgia one of the fastest growing economies in Eastern Europe.^[2] The World Bank dubbed Georgia "the number one economic reformer in the world" because it has in one year improved from rank 112th to 37th in terms of ease of doing business.^[3]However, the country has high unemployment rate of 12.6% and has fairly low median income compared to other European countries.

2006 estimates place Georgia's GDP (adjusted for purchasing power parity) at US$17.79 billion. Georgia's economy is becoming more dependent on services (now representing 54.8% of GDP), moving away from agricultural sector (17.7%).^[2] After the Kremlin banned imports of Georgian wine to Russia, one of Georgia's biggest trading partners, and severed financial links, the Georgian lari's rate of inflation spiked to 10% in 2006.^[4] However, the high inflation rate was offset in part by a high investment rate (30% of 2006 GDP) and the country maintained a solid credit in international market securities.

Georgia is becoming more integrated into the global trading network: its 2006 imports and exports account for 10% and 18% of GDP respectively.^[2] Georgia's main imports are natural gas, oil products, machinery and parts, and transport equipment. However, the country also has sizable internal energy hydropower resources. In 2004, the Georgian Parliament voted to introduce a flat income tax pegged at 12%, which significantly increased tax collection, thereby reducing the government's formerly large budget deficits. Experts estimate that Georgia has in the past few years significantly reduced corruption, because Transparency International places Georgia at joint number 99th in the world in its 2006 Corruption Perceptions Index (with number 1 being considered the least corrupt nation).^[5] This is a significant improvement on Georgia's 2005 Corruption Perceptions Index, where Georgia was rated joint 130th.

The version offered by User:Tamokk:

In the 20th century Georgia's economy was concentrated on Black Sea and Caucasus mountains tourism, cultivation of agricultural products such as citrus fruits, tea and grapes, mining of manganese and copper. There was a small industrial sector producing wine, metals, machinery, chemicals and textile.

After the downfall of Soviet Union Georgia like other successor states of the Soviet Union underwent an economic collapse. The civil war and military conflicts in South Ossetia and Abkhazia deepened the crisis. The country suffered from hyperinflation and industry output diminished. From the mid 1990s with financial help from the West Georgia began economic recovery. Centrally planned economy dominant in Soviet Georgia was replaced by market economy.

There are visible positive developments in the economy of Georgia after the Rose Revolution. The government budget has grown from 350 million to 2.1 billion USD. In 2004 a 12% flat income tax was introduced, and tax collection increased significantly. In its report "Doing Business 2007" the World Bank praised Georgia's economic reforms. The country was able to improve its standing on the Ease of Doing Business Rankings from 112 to 37.^[6] Goeriga is developing into an international transport corridor through Batumi and Poti ports, an oil pipeline from Baku through Tbilisi to Ceyhan, the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline (BTC) and a parallel gas pipeline, the South Caucasus Pipeline.

By 2006 estimates Georgia's GDP (PPP) is US$17.79 billion. The country's GDP growth of 10% in 2006 was one of the highest in Europe. Georgia's economy is becoming more dependent on services (54.8% of GDP), and moves away from the agricultural sector (17.7%).^[2] 2006 imports and exports accounted for 10% and 18% of GDP, respectively.^[2] The country has unemployment rate of 12.6% and considerable underemployment. The median income remains low compared to other European countries.

In 2006 Russia banned imports of Georgian wine. Russia has also occasionally cut natural gas supply to the country, harming its economy.

Voting

Please cote below:

Support User:Sosomk's version:

1. Support SosoMK 10:19, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
2. Support- Very good idea to have a chance to vote rather than have senseless confrontation. I like Soso version, it also includes sources and i think is more suitable for the article both in terms of NPOV and more informative. Ldingley 14:37, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
3. Support - Well written, very informative and well sourced. --VartanM 06:33, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
4. Support - informativeץ Geagea 23:12, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
5. Support-i reviewed both versions, Mr SosoMk version is better and sourced. Thanks. Euskera 17:07, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Support User:Tamokk's version:

1. Support Tamokk 01:20, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
2. Support I have a slight leaning towards this version; when able, integrate historical elements from other version into this one. Corticopia
3. Support. Voting is evil, however. --Ghirla^-трёп- 08:54, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Discussions

Please leave my name out of this dispute. This is a dispute between you, and you are gonna have to work it out. I don't favour any side or any version of the article, and I will not have people using my name and my adminship to claim support. Everything I have ever said here, I said as an editor, not as an admin. Aecis^Brievenbus 12:23, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

1) My version was based on the one now proposed by S. And I left the citations unchanged except that I removed links to the commercial webpages. Like this ^[7] btw misleadingly captioned. What is incorrect? 2) I think the section should not try to explain facts. Explanations of "facts from the point of view of economics, as a social science" is a complex problem, and can not be dealt in the section the aim of which is to give a short account of nation economy. Moreover, such "explanations" sometimes are driven by POV, and should be avoided. 3) What is misleading?

My arguments: As I already said my version is based on the other one. I only made the following changes:

1. Language simplifications, clearifications, order etc.
2. Removed invalid citations.
3. Removed judgemental statemens.
4. Added info about early 1990s economic colapse. This is relevant, the country still has not recovered from its impact. Also see above.
5. Removed 10% inflation thing. See my arguments above.
6. Added Georgias participation in the energetic projects.
7. moved corruption index thing to the government section. Although I do not mind it staying in the economy section too.

Everything else is unchanged. Also let me note, that Sosomk is a POV editor, blocked several times over this article for incivility and violations of other wikipedia rules, and has been warned by several administrators to be permanently blocked. Tamokk 06:28, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The only POV pusher and editor here is you. And don’t downplay on some blocking threats. You behaviour here and communication with other editors is disruptive and despicable. You also vandalize the article, of which i have been a witness before. Also you have very strong POV (admirer of Beria and Stalin) which sometimes seem anti-Georgian in nature. Your intentions are very clear, you are just here to wage edit wars, and attack other editors. This kind of approach to the Wikipedia process is unacceptable. Your personal attacks on Soso are just another indication of your disruptive behaviour and rigid POV pushing Ldingley 15:13, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Refrain from personal attacks. I was accused of POV only by you and Sosomk. And Sosomk was accused of POV by almost every editor who has edited the article. And administrators have not warned me of being blocked, because of my behaviour here. Tamokk 01:02, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, look at the latest inflation rate according to the CIA world factbook[2]: 10% (during the last fiscal year). As for the energy projects (investments that are not Greenfield), I could incorporate those in the section if you discussed it before totally changing my work. SosoMK 15:01, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And what? I know that inflation was 10% in 2006. I just do not think it is necessary to include this detail in the artiicle. In 2005 inflation rate was 8%. In early 1990s we had hyperinflation, and another, although less severe, by end 1990s. Even today it remains high. Why should we stick to some 10% inflation? I suspect the only reason is to magnify Russias ban on Georgian wine (btw I doubt that the ban could have caused the inflation rise, wine export to Russia does not account for so much for Georgias economy). Also I do not understand why do you want to exclude economic downfall of early 1990s, which was by far more important then this 10%. You are fact selective. This is why I blame you of POV. Tamokk 01:02, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And is this your idea of voting? Putting your version in a favorable position, as if a version approved by an administrator. That administrator could have spoken for himself if he wanted. Tamokk 01:17, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The admin has already spoken in the very beginning of the discussions section. Alæxis_¿question? 06:26, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Tamokk: Let me note that Sosomk is offering his version as some kind of Soviet propaganda issue, where even minor edits will not be tolorated [3]. I made some edits to the section, against which he can not put a single argument, but political ones, and that's what this poll is all about. I am not offering my last edition as some kind of final version. Both versions are far from being perfect, and no polls are liable to restrict wikipedia editors from editing it. Tamokk 03:25, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Could you clarify what is a Sovet propaganda in my section? As for the inflation statistic, when we are writing about the economy of a country in 2007, we must use the statistics of the last fiscal year, rather than the skeptical summary of last ten years. Note that the other countries of E Europe have not had the best statistics as they are transforming. 17:02, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Why can't the article have both the last year inflation and the overview of the situation with it in the past? Alæxis_¿question? 17:29, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I could do that but to summarize last ten years we have to write a book. Please look at the economy sections of Czech Republic, England, USA, Canada, and etc. SosoMK 17:54, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Today most mainstream economists emphasize the short-run rather than the long-run and as John Maynard Keynes would say in the long-run, we are all dead. SosoMK 18:03, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've added the inflation rate to the economy section. I hope nobody will argue about it. Alæxis_¿question? 18:26, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sosomk, you can't have 66% consensus. Check what does it mean - it could either exist or not. Alæxis_¿question? 13:55, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No polls

Assume good faith. I just made some edits to the section. If you want to add or remove something, we can discuss. Reverting the whole section is Soviet style attitude. We don't need it.

1. I question your explanations about inflation. Russias ban on Georgian wine could not have caused significant inflation. And, as also indicated by RandomP, it is not obvious that high investments offset inflation. For the first, as far as I know inflation is still high in Georiga.
2. You want to explain the tax collection increase by new tax scheme, what also is inccorect. That was because of political, rather than economic mismanagement that tax collection was low.
3. Georgias per capita GDP today is very low, comparable to those of African countries. The reader should know that unlike African countries, the current state of Georgias economy is not some natural historical legacy, but caused by the economic collapse of the early 1990s, before which Georgias economy was comparable with those of eastern European countries. Tamokk 00:46, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sosomk you better answer these arguments. No 3 or 4 for votes can restrict anybody from editing. Tamokk 02:42, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, your section argued that Russian ban of Georgian wine depressed economy and caused the inflation and I also mention that in the section but I am portraying that from more economic point of view, where I identify more cause-and-effect relationships, meaning that I am being specific why and how it caused the inflation. Not to mention that it is like 2 times 2 = 4 for an economist that trade barrier is going to cause inflation and depression for any country.

Just give sources for that that the inflation was caused namely be the Russian ban. Tamokk 05:22, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

[4], [5] SosoMK 19:15, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Neither of these sources says anything about inflation caused by Russian ban

GDP growth rate is not directly related to inflation: in fact, the economic growth is one of the causes of inflation. What the artcle says is that all else being equal, excess supply will cause the inflation. Tamokk, I would just advise you to relax. SosoMK 16:45, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I quoted here what IMF has reported. IMF gives reasons other than Russian embargo for the inflation, if you can read. So I recommend you to remove the inccorect informaiton from your section. Anyway, soon I will find time and write the section anew. Tamokk 06:10, 16 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There is another source right here, buddy, Mainville, Michael. "Sour grapes.(Russia's ban on Georgian wine exports)." Canadian Business 79.23 (Nov 20, 2006): 28(2). and we will have to change the section after the fiscal year of 2007. As for my literacy, the literacy rate of Georgia is 100% and I edit here Kakhetian style and if you don't like it, you can take a hike. SosoMK 13:45, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The article is available online here. The inflation is nowhere mentioned there. What is this source supposed to prove? Alæxis_¿question? 15:36, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No connexion is made here.

It's the only place in the second source where Russia is mentioned and again nothing is said about these strained relations causing inflation. Alæxis_¿question? 19:38, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Of course Sosomk can not find references. It is just inccorect what he has written. According to the CIA World Factbook, the inflation in Georgia in 2005 was 8.2% and 10% in 2006. That is, through 2006 inflation increased by 1.8% (although there has been some "spike" in mid 2006). In 2005 Inflaion rise was more drastic 2.7%, and inflation in Georgia has been on rise since 2004. [6]. These figures show that Russias embargo can not explain the inflation rise. Tamokk 01:16, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

[7]

Form October 2006 IMF report:

Only Georgian politicians have blamed the inflation on Russia's embargo alone.

IMF reports should be useful [9] [10] Tamokk 04:14, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Secondly, flat tax has increased the tax revenue in Georgia[11] and I will also cite that sentence.

This mentions Georgia only once, along with other countries, as a coutnry were flat tax was introduced, and nothing more. Flat tax can not on its own cause the increase of tax collection.

Tax revenue increased, perhaps because tax collection increased, and not because flat tax was introduced. Tamokk 05:22, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As for your third arguments, most of the vandalism, that the article has been challenged by, argue that the country is in Asia rather than in Europe, so Georgia is definitely not an African country and the total GDP tells nothing more than the size of the economy: for example Pakistan might have higher GDP than Georgia but it does not mean that people of Pakistan are more better off than Georgians. What we can look at is GDP per capital and I also mention something about that in the section.SosoMK 10:19, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

For the first I was talking about per capita GDP. And my point was not to compare the country to the African countries or Pakistan, but rather to show the scale of the economic collapse which Georgia underwent. Tamokk 05:22, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sosomk, thanks for adding reference. However I'll reinsert the fact tag because it's the connexion between inflation and investment rate that needs proof. Alæxis_¿question? 17:00, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please provide your qualification in economics: are you an economist? Why should you teach me what to write? Why would I trust a guy who has a KGB logo on his userpage? SosoMK 18:03, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Why don't you add Lavrenty Beria and Rudolf Hess there, man: that will make it look cool. :) SosoMK