Race and intelligence was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Article milestones Date Process Result June 14, 2005 Articles for deletion Kept June 24, 2005 Peer review Reviewed July 18, 2005 Featured article candidate Not promoted August 25, 2006 Good article nominee Not listed December 4, 2006 Articles for deletion Kept April 11, 2011 Articles for deletion Kept February 24, 2020 Deletion review Overturned February 29, 2020 Articles for deletion Kept Current status: Former good article nominee

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I'm not necessarily arguing that heritability has to be mentioned at all, but it is currently mentioned in the article. If the article is going to mention that environmental factors play a major role, it should be clear that IQ in adults is mostly hereditary. The article currently gives the impression that environmental factors are more important, or at least as important as hereditary factors, which may mislead a reader. The current state of this section of the article either needs to be removed entirely or added to as to not be misleading.Thespearthrower (talk) 20:03, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, so I read this pathetic outpour in the 'net about how wikipedia is wrong and blahblah. And also that it censores science. I wouldn't want to see Wikipedia censor science, so I decided to take a look.

In a deletion discussion (one of many), there was one very sound argument for deleting it: the same could be covered by Race and Intelligence, and should be, since not every fringe theory deserves its own page. All good. HOWEVER, this page doesn't mention the theory at all! So, on to find if the scientific sources listed in a late version of the article are found, here's four that seem prominent (peer-reviewed, published): ^{[1] [2] [3] [4]}

I think it would serve Wikipedia well to critique these sources, and salvage into this article what can be salvaged, about the clearly existing and notable "exceptional Ashkenazi genetic intelligence" theory.

-- Sigmundur (talk) 12:37, 19 July 2022 (UTC) Sigmundur (talk) 12:37, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You have linked a discussion from 2007, which closed as no consensus. I suggest you read the latest AfD discussion instead. [11]. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:54, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Quillette article you linked is, at the very best, dishonest. At worst, it's a steaming pile of bullshit used to advocate racism. Happy (Slap me) 13:12, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Quillette, per WP:RSP, is not a reliable source for facts. Obviously we're not going to change our articles in response to their opinions. The sources you've published are largely fringe - the first one is a book review that specifically describes the book as unreliable and controversial, summarizing its argument as limited and biased. The second barely intelligence, and only in passing. The third is the very book that your first source dismisses as trash. The final one is... Richard Lynn, most notable for his work at Mankind Quarterly, the journal of scientific racism. This is the sort of unreliable, unscientific nonsense you get when you search for sources to back up a culture-war-trash source like Quillette. If that's all you can drudge up in support of their nonsense, it's certainly not notable. --Aquillion (talk) 18:32, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  This is an example of gaming the standard for and meaning of "Reliable Source". RS isn't relevant here because the article wasn't being used as a source, it was shared with editors here because it's criticizing the handling of this entry. This "demonize and exile the source" mentality is exactly what the article was talking about.

  Further, RS needs to be applied to each topic and article individually - the concept of reliable source whose every article is blessed is a joke. Anyone can clearly see that the Quillette article is making easily checkable claims (specifically that the contents of this article have changed) and the burden of proof is vastly different than if someone was trying to use them as a primary source to prove the existence of UFOs. Less than perfect sources can be used, with consensus approval, when they're in a more reliable topic or when the material makes only trivial claims (ie about Wikipedia history).

  Wikipedia rules should not be quoted to shut down discussion but in a helpful manner that assumes good faith.

  InverseZebra (talk) 19:36, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oh god, I came here to talk about this very thing and it looks like someone was already doing it. Does anyone know why there is no mention of Ashklenazi Jews in this article? Also, in the section on test scores, I think we should differentiate between South Asians and East Asians. Asian is a term that is too broad, it encompasses everyone from Syrians to Koreans.TheHaberProcess (talk) 18:11, 7 August 2022 (UTC) striking WP:BLOCKEVASION. Generalrelative (talk) 15:05, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe you should not just check that somebody is discussing this but also read what they write? They write that the sources are crap. Without useable sources, we cannot mention the subject. The same holds for Asians. --Hob Gadling (talk) 18:51, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Just noticed that this was a bit unfair since the last contribution saying the sources are crap was newer than the "oh god" contribution. Still, there you have the reason. --Hob Gadling (talk) 19:01, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

When I added it I added it with this source^[5]. It looks OK to me. I also found it odd the article does not mention Ashkenazi Jews at all because our are widely debated by people who study this.striking WP:BLOCKEVASION. Generalrelative (talk) 15:05, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That's a passing mention in a book review (again). These sorts of sources just don't support the assertion that this is an important aspect of the subject. --Aquillion (talk) 20:34, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Originally I cited Forbes, I did not quite understand why it was not reliable in this context. But there is a plethora of sources, forgive me, I just put the links because proper formatting is too much work, but :

Also, it is important that we talk about Ashkenazi Jewish intelligence, because there are so many anti-semitic conspiracy theories out there based on the overrepresentation of the Jews high positions, but that is shown to be bonkers once you simply control for IQ. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheHaberProcess (talk • contribs) 20:48, 7 August 2022 (UTC)striking WP:BLOCKEVASION. Generalrelative (talk) 15:05, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Please read Wikipedia:Reliable sources. For content concerning scientific topics, we don't cite Vox, the American Enterprise Institute, or op-eds in the NYT. And no, it isn't even remotely necessary to 'control for IQ' to refute antisemitic conspiracy theories, any more than it is necessary to 'control for the non-existence of shape-shifting lizards' to refute similar theories concerning the New World Order, the Illuminati, or mind-control through 5G WiFi. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:05, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

But Vox and NYTimes are already cited in this article. And I think your example proves my point, it is precisely because shape-shifting lizards do not exist that those conspiracy theories are bonkers. I think your example is more about the fact that most people already know that those lizards do not exist, so there is no need to even mention it to show to most people those theories are silly. In the case of Ashkenazi Jewish intelligence, this is well known among ourselves, but the public at large is not so well informed. If they were though, they would have a retort when some nutjob comes to them talking about how X or Y percent of the bankers are Jewish. TheHaberProcess (talk) 21:37, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Jordan Peterson: https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/right-wing-personality-on-jewish-question-ashkenazim-have-high-iq-547159

Stephen Pinker: https://newrepublic.com/article/77727/groups-and-genes

TheHaberProcess (talk) 21:46, 7 August 2022 (UTC)striking WP:BLOCKEVASION. Generalrelative (talk) 15:06, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This article does not exist to refute conspiracy theories, especially ones unrelated or tangentially-related to intelligence, and it is an insult to our intelligence that editors would believe that is the reason it is proposed to include content about the intelligence of Ashkenazi Jews. Onetwothreeip (talk) 22:06, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I still do not understand why you guys are against inclusion of this content. The topic has been discussed in a wide range of sources, a lot of which seem very OK to me, some of whom are cited in this very article. And the topic is not tangentially-related, it is at the core of the issue. An article about race and intelligence should mention the most intelligent race, just as an article about dog breed intelligence would be remiss if there was no mention of the border collie.TheHaberProcess (talk) 22:22, 7 August 2022 (UTC)striking WP:BLOCKEVASION. Generalrelative (talk) 15:05, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Jewish culture is focussed on learning, thinking and discussing. It is known that actually using your brain increases your competence at using it, and therefore the consensus is that any higher intelligence of Ashkenazi already has a very good explanation.

The Pinker source you quote says, This does not imply that differences between groups are also genetic, since one group may experience a difference across the board, such as in wealth, discrimination, or social and cultural capital and CH&H's evidence is circumstantial and But all the hypotheses would have to be true for the theory as a whole to be true--and much of the evidence is circumstantial, and the pivotal hypothesis is the one for which they have the least evidence. So, you claim Ashkenazi Jews are the most intelligent race, but the very source you quote regards this as highly dubious. (I did not check Peterson because he is a crappy source - most psychoanalysts do not understand how science works, and Peterson definitely does not. He talks a lot of Dunning-Krugerish nonsense about evolution too.)

It is not enough that sources seem very OK to you. They must also seem very OK to the people here who are familiar with the subject, and the subject needs to be relevant enough. They have tried to explain why. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:29, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, I think the relevant factor is Jewish moms, have you heard you are only Jewish if your mom is Jewish? The status of the father is irrelevant. I can get the ref for you if you like, but I heard Paul Bloomn in his psychology lectures saying that the fact that IQ seems to vary more by social conditions, like, whether you were born to a Jewish mother or father, as an argument against hereditarianism. It is not what you would expect if it were genetic, given you get half genes from mom and dad. I am not endorsing Pinker's or Peterson's or Bloom's views on anything for that matter, I am just saying the topic is salient enough for lots of high profile psychologists and even geneticists to discuss it.

The evidence is less comprehensive for other groups in the US. According to a number of secondary sources, Ashkenazi Jews are have an average IQ that is between a half and a full standard deviation above the mean for white gentiles.(sources) However, the primary research on the topic is wanting and said advantage seems to be more associated with how individuals are regarded rather than their genetic make up.(Bloom source here) Indian Americans are also a group with high average educational and occupational attainment. There is some preliminary evidence that their average IQ is roughly on a pair with that of Ashkenazi Jews.(if not Forbes, maybe this book: US-India Forward Leap—The Partnership Building - Page 140, or both) This may be because only individuals with high educational and occupational status can migrate from India to the U.S. TheHaberProcess (talk) 07:45, 8 August 2022 (UTC)striking WP:BLOCKEVASION. Generalrelative (talk) 15:05, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Surely after the mountains of previous discussion on this topic, is there really anyone who knows the first thing about the topic who is still mistaking performance on IQ tests with actual intelligence? Or that the class of people who choose to leave their ancestral home to pursue opportunities elsewhere, are a true random sample of that population? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 09:03, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have any content you propose to include in the article? Onetwothreeip (talk) 09:42, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure how those two last comments are relevant to my proposed addition. The second half of Maynard's comment is right in that Indian Americans are a highly selected population. Perhaps we can mention that in the paragraph? Regarding the comment by Onetwothreeip, if it was addressed to me, then yes, the paragraph above TheHaberProcess (talk) 14:45, 8 August 2022 (UTC)striking WP:BLOCKEVASION. Generalrelative (talk) 15:05, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@AndyTheGump: I don't think I can revert due to 1RR but if you see material misrepresenting the claim of its alleged source, you have to remove/modify it. Given that you realized the source doesn't correspond to the claims made in the article whatsoever, you should have removed the content or found a fitting source. Unless somebody has done so, I will be removing the material tomorrow, as per policy.-Thespearthrower (talk) 17:12, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You altered data concerning the year 2017–2018, apparently based on data from the source cited, which now shows data for 2020-2021. Do you have access to the 2017–2018 data? Because otherwise, I can't see any evidence that anyone was 'misrepresenting' anything. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:30, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've found the 2017–2018 data. [13] I'll correct the link. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:38, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! Thespearthrower (talk) 17:55, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]