I'm going to assume you're familiar with the Finnish symphonic metal band Nightwish. Do you like them? -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 03:33, 3 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Nope, can't stand em! But I'm just tickled pink to know that at least you know who they are. I'm really more of an Arch Enemy circa Gossow type. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 03:45, 3 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Full disclosure: I am an actual and old-school metal fan, so unless I explicitly state otherwise, it is safe to assume that anything I say about any metal band, good or bad, is insanely hyperbolic and should not be taken at face value. In this case "can't stand them" means "I wouldn't complain one bit if you put them on at high volume in a car in which we were both travelling, but after the first album ended I would insist on listening to a different band." ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 03:48, 3 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Love it! I can't say I've ever been a die hard heavy metal fan, just a sixties rock'n roll guy. Led Zeppelin, Pretty Maids, Metallica, etc. Lars Ulrich is Danish, so he's okay with me. He was young when I first moved there. BTW, what's the story behind the two usernames, MjolnirPants and MPants at work? -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 05:41, 3 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Replied via email re usernames. As for music, I'm not exclusively a fan of metal. I've been a musician (piano, guitar, violin, viola, bass guitar, contra bass, sax and a few others) for several decades, so my tastes run wide. But metal was something I discovered entirely on my own, and introduced to my friends when I was younger, so it will always hold a special place in my heart. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 05:53, 3 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Awesome, I'm also a multi-instrumentist. In the last decade I mostly specialized on guitar though (although I was playing guitar less virtuosely when younger). But then again I collected a number of guitar styles so variety is present... As for metal, I can appreciate very well produced albums such as Cathedral's Forest of Equilibrium, Alice in Chain's Dirt, etc. I tend to rarely play my own metal compositions these days. As for Led Zeppelin, that's classic rock to me. I like select music from every genre. —PaleoNeonate – 06:33, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Damn good stuff there, though AiC isn't metal, but Grunge. Which I also love because I was a teen when it first appeared. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 16:17, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Nightwish is no longer Nightwish without Tarja. O3000 (talk) 10:13, 3 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Amen! -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 15:33, 3 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the below list is dark. I won't add this to your list, but I get a kick when hard bands switch genre. Here’s a cut where early metal guitarist Lars Johan Yngve Lannerbäck AKA Yngwie J. Malmsteen starts with an acoustic version of Air on the G-string based on Bach (missing notes here and there), and then switches guitars 4.5 minutes in and lets loose. I just enjoy the contrast.[1]. O3000 (talk) 01:36, 5 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I’m going off track here. But, saw your mention of folk in your edit summary. Most Simon and Garfunkel fans (of which I’m one) would be appalled by metal band Disturbed’s version of The Sound of Silence. But, they may have never thought about the darkness hidden under the harmony in so many of their songs: suicide, isolation, purposelessness, war. (Even the sweet sounding Scarborough Fair has the anti-war song Canticle in the background.) Disturbed simply exposed some of the darkness. [2] O3000 (talk) 14:06, 5 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(This is a user talk page, Off track is fine.)

Well, I was referring to traditional folk (sometimes called ethnic or world music), which is generally defined as music that arose within a particular culture in isolation from other cultures, in a pre-modern setting. Meanwhile, S&G is contemporary folk music, which is generally definable as folk music (itself defined by contrast to formal or classical music) from a contemporary time period, or as music that arose from the Folk revival in the 1960's US. It's a much looser definition, even though it has an easily identifiable sound in the modern Western world (John Denver, S&G, etc.). Even with ethnic flair (Israel Kamakawiwoʻole anyone?), it's still part of a single genre. Compare that to traditional folk music, which ranges from Tuvan throat singing to Scottish jigs to Meso-American ballads, and that's just the form of traditional folk that incorporates modern instrumentation and song structure! It could, quite rightly, be divided into a different genre for each ethnicity it draws from, and then additional genres.

So how does any of that relate to metal? Well, I'm glad I asked. Metal is and always has been about defiance. Politically, defiance is often associated with ethnic traditions and even nationalism. As a result, just like with political groups defined by defiance, it frequently looks to the past for inspiration and ways to define itself. Hence you get genres like African Metal, Brazilian Metal, Japanese (Folk) Metal* and perhaps most famously, Viking Metal. These groups are all not only influenced by the same traditions and cultures as the traditional folk musician, but share the same categorical structure; they're all part of an identifiable genre that could rightfully be split upon ethnic lines.

But then, with things like the cover you provided (which was cool; I'd never heard it before), what we have is a reflection of modern society. The influence of western culture is all over it, from the structure and melodies (part of the original song) to the neoclassical/symphonic instrumentation. It's certainly folk (even the neoclassical instrumentation is done in a way that's clearly a folk appropriation of classical instrumentation), and it's by a metal band. But I don't think it's actually metal. It's reflective of modern society, modern musical norms and -like any cover song- it's a sort of virtue signal that Disturbed is a S&G fan. It's a rock song. While Rock and metal are certainly related, they're related in the same way that a Satanist and his Catholic father are; neither one really wants to admit it, though the elder will sometimes try to appropriate some aspects of the younger's style, and the younger will unconsciously embody many traits of the elder.

Still a cool cover though. I never much liked Disturbed, but I have to admit that their cover game is strong. (Compare their version of Land of Confusion to the version by In Flames, normally a far better band. Disturbed wins that one by a fair bit. Contrast that by comparing the cringe-worthy weakness and pretension of Disturbed's big hit single to the similarly-melodic Clouds Connected by In Flames, which is so much better that it almost hurts to compare them.) ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:43, 5 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

^*

I added the designation of folk to this because Japan is one of the places generally associated with non-folk metal, along with the US and Scandinavia.

O3000, I really appreciate your observations about Disturbed's cover. My thoughts exactly. My wife is very conservative, musically speaking: soft rock, classical, etc. When I first presented Disturbed's version for her appraisal, and described how the original is actually a rather dark and dystopian song, she then listened to it and was blown away. She said "It's different, but really better." Bingo! Both versions are good, but Disturbed gets to the soul of the song. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 03:43, 12 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I guess you need to know how to view the video. With Simon and Gar, the volume is low. With Disturbed, turn up the volume. With Arianna Grande, mute the volume and just watch. O3000 (talk) 19:31, 13 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That was Anna Kendrick, not Ariana Grande. And since this is the video for it, I'm going to suggest also closing your eyes before watching it. That being said, I could watch Ariana Grande with the sound off all day. Just don't tell my wife. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 20:16, 13 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Music

For anyone watching this thread (or commenting in it), I'm going to occasionally post a great or interesting metal song, or a song related to metal in an obvious or interesting way. Feel free to add your own.

Metal

• Behemoth - O Father, O Satan, O Sun!
• Yngwie Malmsteen - Black Star (live)
• Mick Gordon - BFG Division
• Lamb of God - Redneck
• In Flames - Crawl Through Knives
• In Flames - Cloud Connected
• Disturbed - Land of Confusion
• Amon Amarth - First Kill
• Sepultura - Roots, Bloody Roots
• Wagakki - Ikusa
• Skinflint - Dipoko
• Kittie - Brackish
• Slipknot - Psychosocial
• Dimmu Borgir - Progenies of the Great Apocalypse
• Behemoth - Conquer All
• Dethklok - Face Fisted
• Dethklok - Murmaider 2 The Water God
• Metallica - The Call of Ktulu
• Pantera - Cowboys From Hell
• Meshuggah - Rational Gaze
• Mushroomhead - We Are the Truth
• Arch Enemy - We Will Rise
• Metallica - One
• Mushroomhead - Sun Doesn't Rise
• Mastodon - Oblivion
• Slayer - Seasons in The Abyss
• Dir En Grey - Obscure (Low quality, but definitely NSFW.)
• Dir En Grey - The IIId Empire
• Fear Factory - Shock
• Infant Annihilator - Decapitation Fornication
• Fleshgod Apocalypse - Epilogue
• Korn - Shoots and Ladders
• Mudvayne - Death Blooms
• Black Kirin - Oh Soldier
• Behemoth - Bartzabel (NSFW: full frontal nudity)
• Devin Townsend - Kingdom

Metal Related

• Heilung - Krigsgaldr (live)
• Raga Bhairav
• Gorillaz - Clint Eastwood
• Queen - Bohemian Rhapsody
• Lordi - Hard Rock Hallelujah - When metal took over Eurovision. See Live version.
• Junkie XL - Brothers In Arms
• Marilyn Manson - SAY10 (This video is NSFW.)
• Katatonia - A Premonition (IMHO one of the best songs ever written by man.)
• Melt Banana - Shield for Your Eyes, a Beast in the Well on Your Hand
• Tenacious D - Tribute

Other cool music

• Miles Davis - Kenny Garret sax solo
• Live under the sky - Four sleepers
• Live under the sky 88
• Smokey Robinson - I Second That Emotion
• Beth Hart - Am I The One
• Beth Hart - L.A. Song (Out of This Town)
• Joe Cocker - With a Little Help From My Friends
• Come - Power failure
• En Vogue - Hold On
• The Pros and Cons of Hitch Hiking (full album)
• Sultaniyegah Saz Semai
• Victor Simon - Tangoriental
• Skrillex & Damian "Jr. Gong" Marley - Make It Bun Dem
• Eminem & Nate Dog - Shake That
• Maroon 5 - This Love
• Childish Gambino - This is America
• DMX - X Gon' Give It To Ya
• Pink - Trouble
• JJ - Still (I Got Summer on My Mind)
• Awolnation - Sail
• Jesus loves the acid
• Die Antwoord - I Fink U Freaky
• Sonic Youth - Schizophrenia
• The Beatles - While My Guitar Gently Weeps
• John Grant - Pale Green Ghosts
• David Bowie - Black Star
• Union Jack - Papillon
• Petra & Co - Just let go
• How about some loud electronica: Aphex Twin - Come to Daddy, Atari Teenage Riot - Speed, Autoclav1.1 - This Is Untitled (Broken by Wast3), Tactical Sekt - Beslan, Crystal Castles - Alice Practice
• Jesse Cook - One night at the metropolis (especially @ 28m)
• Veracocha - Carte Blanche
• Stevie Wonder - Superstition
• Gladys Knight & The Pips - Midnight Train to Georgia
• Fleetwood Mac - The Chain
• KLF - What time is love
• My way - drummer steals the show
• Scotch - Disco band
• Le bain de Cleopatre (remix)
• Raga Bhairav - disco/acid house implementation
• Mediterranean Sundance
• Unknown error - The yearning
• Ed Rush Optical Matrix - Flightpath
• Dave Spoon - At night
• Soundstorm - Iris
• Takis Gritzovalos - Gypsy
• Noisia - The Distance
• Eisenfunk - Pestilenz Note to self: The ability to make music that appeals to my 19-year-old self and the ability to make a music video that isn't unintentionally hilarious are not in any way related. Note to others: This band made several videos and they're all like this. Or worse.
• Chuck Mangione - Feels so good
• Eric Idle - The FCC Song (fuck you very much) (Wikipedia article, new version played live)
• Tim Minchin - Dark side
• Kevin Bloody Wilson - Cunt Of A Day
• Reggie Watts - Fuck Shit Stack
• The Avalanches - Frontier Psychiatry
• Primus - The Antipop
• Chinese Man - I've Got That Tune
• Lorn - Anvil I just discovered this on YouTube and I am positively in love with this video
• Jeff Beck & Tal Wilkenfeld - Cause We've Ended As Lovers
• Am I Ever Gonna See Your Face Again : The Angels Live Melbourne 1988
• David Hasselhoff - True Survivor
• Stan Bush - Fight for love
• Corrupt Souls - Broadcast
• Corrupt Souls - Dropzone
• The Jimi Hendrix Experience - All Along the Watchtower
• Habib Khan Indian Jazz Ensemble - Waterfall
• The Pod dance (The Dark Crystal - Podling's Village)
• Avram Kartal - Lutvu Kartal
• Paul Van Der Valk - Turbo Imploder 4 (intro music of Amiga utility)
• Şirin Pancaroğlu - Nihâvend Peşrev
• Hyper - Spoiler
• Tim Minchin - What if House wrote a love song
• Tim discovers religion, and alternative medicine (long intro)
• Tim Minchen - Confessions Must watch past the double fake ending with a touch of Ayn Rand, followed by a takeoff on a love song made famous by Whitney Houston that was actually written by Dolly Parton about being fired by Porter Wager. Supposed internal conflicts of an SJW.

Further discussion

Both of these were beautiful, and I'd heard neither. Turrentine was one of my favourites, thanks to Taxi (TV series) Roxy, the dog. barcus 08:07, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm adding the festival compilation from which the sleepers were taken, with other memorable performances... —PaleoNeonate – 11:32, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• I'm not a Jazz fan myself (most people who know me IRL are shocked by this, given my love of progressive and experimental genres), but I can certainly appreciate it. And once in a while, I feel the need to put on something different and just soak in it for a while... ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 12:58, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If you’re going to add MoTown, try this for rock blues. This was Beth Hart’s heroin period, which she is over. Guitarist borrows from Hendrix. Mr. Hyde peeks out at 1:20 and she switches back and forth between Jekyl and Hyde. Hyde wins in the end. As I said, I like contrasts. [3] O3000 (talk) 19:52, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You know, I had no idea who Beth Hart was when I read your comment. I liked the song a lot, so I looked her up, and found her big hit which I remember my DI in bootcamp really liked (I liked it to). Dude used to listen to it like every night after lights out. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 20:10, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

She cleaned up her drug problems and performed for Obama at the Kennedy Center Honors, same year Zep was honored. Since Joe Cocker was added, I had to mention an interesting video. This is a live performance at the Apollo of "You are so beautiful" with Cocker singing and the author, Billy Preston, at the piano. The interesting part is when Patti LaBelle appears from stage right and shakes the timbers. I wouldn’t add it. I just like the contrast between Cocker’s bronchitis voice and LaBelle’s soaring vocals. [4] Now, if you want to hear a serious gravelly voice, there’s Tom Waits doing "Tom Traubert's Blues", with apologies to any Aussies watching.[5] O3000 (talk) 01:03, 12 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I've added Roger Waters' The Pros and Cons of Hitch Hiking to the list. It's a whole album (42 minutes), and an absolute classic. Kind of a concept album with a story running through it, and if you've never heard it before you're in for a treat. Enjoy! nagualdesign 22:47, 13 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(talk page stalker) @Nagualdesign: one of my shifts on the railway started at 05:01...guess the solo whistled  :) —SerialNumber54129 ^{paranoia /cheap sh*t room} 23:12, 13 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ha! I haven't heard this in years. I listened to it for the first time when I was 15 or 16, and the cover caught my eye. Damn good stuff. Damn good. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 23:59, 13 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, the album art's quite an eye-popper, especially when you're that age, which is exactly the same age I was when I first heard it too - a quarter of a century ago! Good times. nagualdesign 00:05, 14 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ahh, Roger Waters. Thanks for the link as I'm not familiar with it. I took someone I’d just met in NYC to the wall concert in Berlin after the wall fell. We got there early, hung around and enjoyed the camaraderie. But, we left before it started, took the subway to what was East Berlin, walked down the main Straße (which was papered with porn shop posters – even the opera house), took a taxi to the Moscow Café and watched Waters on TV. O3000 (talk) 00:23, 14 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

My favorite Waters/Pink Floyd material is Dogs (Pigs song especially)Animals (Dogs song especially), then Dark Side of The Moon, I think (although all is good, of course). —PaleoNeonate – 01:17, 14 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• There's a lot of music that I absolutely love that I doubt would go down well among metal fans. Frank Zappa's my favourite recording artist of all time. Radiohead are my favourite living band (I expect everyone likes at least a handful of their stuff). I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest something by John Grant... nagualdesign 22:08, 16 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

...That link (above) is to Pale Green Ghosts, the first JG track I ever heard, and it's also the title track to his second album. The link is the first of a full playlist of the whole album. If you don't want to listen to the whole thing then just try track 3, "GMF" - another one of my favourites. Warning: explicit lyrics. nagualdesign 22:18, 16 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Listening to the link above now. You can really hear the retro influence that's so pervasive today. There's a lot to unpack in it, though, so I can't say much beyond that until I hear more. Good stuff, though. Fun to listen to. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 22:44, 16 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, it's kind of '80s style, but with arguably better production values, mixed with '90s dance music and other stuff. It's the Icelandic electro-pop influence, apparently. There's a remix of PGG called "Pale Green Ghosts (NO CEREMONY /// Remix)" that you might like if you've got a kick-ass sound system. nagualdesign 22:55, 16 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• I have only one thing to add to this discussion : https://archive.org/details/GratefulDead - their take of "Dancing in the Street" (as heard here) puts all other versions to shame (yes Mr Bowie and Mr Jagger, I'm looking at you....) particularly after the verses at 2:30 when they shift gear into kick ass jamming. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 00:16, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That was a tour de force. I love a track of epic proportions. Okay, I wasn't going to post any Zappa but as long tracks go, this is one of the best: Yo' Mama. nagualdesign 00:44, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, that takes me back to high school. Not that I was in high school in '79, people just used to sing that song to me a lot... ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 03:22, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well, you should never smoke in pyjamas.^[FBDB] nagualdesign 03:38, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I was in primary school in '79, at that point I recall being more interested in The Goodies. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:48, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I turned 2 in '79, so you're both old gits from where I'm standing! nagualdesign 10:57, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I was born in '79, so stick that in your pipe and smoke it, geezer! ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:09, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Touché. nagualdesign 13:11, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Good Lord. In ’79, I had already been working as a programmer for 12 years. My GF about that time was taught to drive a shift by Jerry Garcia (before he became an ice cream). O3000 (talk) 13:21, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That... Actually makes me feel much better, thanks! ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:30, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

My sole purpose in life is to age to allow others to feel better about their age relative to mine. Thus far, I’ve been highly successful at ageing. O3000 (talk) 16:21, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Speaking of ageing, and music, it’s interesting to see how some artists change over time. Here’s Mark Knopfler, rather mellow compared to days in Dire Straits. Your DI might like it if he ever indulged in mellowocity. Nice fingerstyle. [6] O3000 (talk) 18:12, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

About "Papillon" above, with edit summary "try to guess what the letters mean :)" (not sure if anyone noticed) I'll answer: the sequence of letters is a frequency-sorted list of letters in French. —PaleoNeonate – 16:02, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Those damned French with their stupid baguettes and their silly accent... ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 16:49, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Now I want baguette with cheese and red wine (I know French but am not French, BTW, poutine is more stereotypical). —PaleoNeonate – 17:53, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Came across this thread, saw a few tracks/bands I very much like, and decided to take the invitation above to add a few. Fear Factory in metal, Melt Banana for metal related, and some various loud electronic tracks (when I'm in the mood for something loud over the past decade or so, it's been decreasingly analog). — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 16:56, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That Tactical-Sekt song gave me a flashback to drinking scotch in a goth club in Raleigh, SC at age 21, feeling completely out of place with my shaved head, gub'mint issued mustache and BDUs while hoping like all hell that goth girls like a man in uniform, too. (Looking back, I can say with assurance that they do indeed.) ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 17:19, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Did not know there is (was?) a goth club in Raleigh. When I lived there the only place [that I knew of] playing anything unusual was Kings (unless you venture to the other parts of the Triangle). — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 17:45, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm pretty sure it was more of a "goth night" than a dedicated goth club. I seem to recall there being a line-dancing thing there one night. If I'm not mistaken, the club was called The Church. Don't ask me where in the city it was though, I never drove to it, just caught rides (which we spent bragging about how many girls we'd take home). If you need any evidence of this, note how I put it in SC instead of NC because yeah, apparently, my sense of geography (and memory) really is that bad. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 17:59, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ahh, I see you’ve added The Chain. Carried it on my iPod for years. Not as dramatic, but I always liked Landslide. Doesn’t say so in the WP article, but I’ve heard it was written with her father in mind. For some reason, the song seems particularly important to her. Many artists get attached to particular pieces. Like Ainsi soit je to Mylene Farmer. I liked Buckingham’s guitar work a lot. But, there exist better. O3000 (talk) 00:35, 20 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to say that all you kids have ruined this Jazz related thread. Humph. Also, I appear to be at least twenty years older than the oldest of you. -Roxy, the dog. barcus 09:06, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If you’re talking about physical age, I’d say that’s highly unlikely. I just need to listen to recent music to stay young at heart. But since I’m here, another piece (definitely not jazz) with a strident woman. The woman stalking the stage is Alison Mosshart. Jack White lays down his guitar and returns to his first love.[7]. O3000 (talk) 11:38, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm standing with O3k on this one. Listening to music from a metal duo young enough to still think pretending to hump each other is the height of physical humor makes me feel like I'm not as old as my joints keep telling me I am. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 12:21, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Age is thing. You have to work on a thing. Or, it controls you instead of vice-versa. I posted this on my own forum on the death of Chester Bennington. [8] O3000 (talk) 00:09, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Really? Psychosocial is your "best" of Slipknot? Their self titled album was my workout music for like two whole years. It got to the point where I could take a PT test and play the record back in my head by memory as I ran. GMG^talk 02:05, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@GreenMeansGo: I love Psychosocial too, but I think MjolnirPants linked the wrong video. Alexis Jazz (talk) 07:54, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well GMG, Alexis is right in that the Nyan cat version is the far superior one, but I meant what I said. There was a bit of a rivalry between Slipknot and Mudvayne back in the day, and I was best friends and bandmates for a while with the guy who used to sell Mudvayne their pot back even further in the day. So I just never really got into Slipknot. By the time they released Psychosocial I'd gotten to the point of apathy with respect to that sort of thing. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 12:38, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• All of you need to watch that Hasselhoff video. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 14:17, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Just to keep the thread going, non-metal version of Rage Against the Machine’s Ghost of Tom Joad. Tom Morello keeps it raw.[9] O3000 (talk) 15:08, 3 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• New TV commercial came on today and the background music sounded familiar. Drove me crazy trying to figure it out. Few hours later I remembered it was a Portishead tune. I like sounds that cross genre. This is a trip hop/electronica band; only it has elements of jazz, blues, and rock as well. Besides, I like strong female leads. Also, elements of Jekyl and Hyde that I enjoy. [10]. O3000 (talk) 23:51, 23 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oooh, I love Portishead. I first learned of them when I downloaded an MP3 of Teardrops by Massive Attack which was wrongly attributed to them. I loved that song so much I bought a Portishead album. Very different sound, but no regrets. None at all. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 19:29, 24 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Interesting cover by Garbage and the Screaming Females of the Springsteen/Smith piece that Patti Smith made famous, ‘’Because the Night’’. Marissa Paternoster starts a lengthy guitar solo at 3:34 that suggests one reason they’re called the Screaming Females. Decent break down at the end.[11] O3000 (talk) 01:25, 19 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Objective3000: "Interesting" my ass... That was fucking epic! And the next song in that playlist has been one of my favorite grrl rock songs for a long time. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 01:40, 19 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Weirdness

I listened to one of the metal videos here on youtube, and let it continue autoplaying for a while. This was the sequence:

1. Behemoth - O Father, O Satan, O Son!
2. Behemoth - Ora Pro Nobis Lucifer
3. Fatback Band - I Found Lovin'
4. Cheryl Lynn - Encore

I have no idea what is going through YT's "mind", but it's funny as hell and I hope it's doing the same to other metal listeners. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:47, 21 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe there's somebody who really likes both Behemoth and vintage R&B and YT is assuming that duo is... common. I mean with how I ping between folk metal and Gorillaz I'm sure I'm giving YT weird ideas about taste mapping too. Simonm223 (talk) 13:50, 21 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe there's somebody who really likes both Behemoth and vintage R&B Well, to be fair, that's me. But YT usually is smart enough to realize when I'm listening to metal vs when I'm listening to R&B, and I rarely do the latter on YT anyways since I actually own the albums I like. And you're not the only one who bounces between The Gorillaz and folk metal. Most of the folk metal fans I know have said something like "Some pop music is okay. Like The Gorillaz." at some point. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:56, 21 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You have been blocked from editing for abuse of editing privileges in relation to information which has been removed from Wikipedia's public records.
If you think there are good reasons why you should be unblocked, you should review the guide to appealing blocks, and then email the Arbitration Committee at arbcom-enwikimedia.org.

---

Administrators: Information which has been oversighted was considered when this block was placed. Therefore the Oversight team or the Arbitration Committee must be consulted before this block can be removed. Administrators undoing oversight blocks without permission from an oversighter risk having their administrator rights removed by the Arbitration Committee (per this announcement).

 -- TonyBallioni (talk) 16:38, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have every sympathy with your position, and I am just replacing this message, deleted by over zealous admins I presume. -Roxy, the dog. wooF 17:41, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A section of this page has been deleted by an admin, after I restored it. Their edsum reads " I've left your note, but the rest was removed by an oversight process. Please do not restore it. " Tis a fucking joke. That was not an oversight deletion, and just appears spiteful. -Roxy, the dog. wooF 18:20, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

When you see a "...removed from Wikipedia's public records..." edit by an admin, it is best to leave it be. Something went on that they can't tell us about. In the past I have inquired about these sort of blocks, and have been assured by people who I trust that any action that they can't publicly give a reason for gets a lot of extra scrutiny from multiple uninvolved admins. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:25, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's all very well, but the content I restored was not oversight deleted, and remains in the edit history for all to see. I urge lurkers to take a look. -Roxy, the dog. wooF 18:32, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There is a reason why an admin might oversight some things and delete other things as part of oversighting. Sometimes the part that gets oversighted makes the rest invalid. Somebody writes something. I respond. The bit I responded to disappears. Now my response is out if context. It doesn't have to be a direct reply either. Somebody writes something. I write something else without mentioning X because somebody has already covered X. The bit that discusses X disappears. Now it looks like I purposely avoided discussing X. And it is far from obvious from the history that deleting my comment was a good idea. Seriously, we have to trust the admins in this case. We simply do not have the information needed to determine what should and should not be restored. I don't like it any better than you do; I regularly review admin decisions and ask questions if they seem a bit fishy. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:51, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Admins are not omniscient arbiters of interpretation and are not immune to WP:TPG; if someone objects to their non-oversighted material being removed, and there isn't a policy-based reason to remove it (doesn't contain attacks, copyvios, etc.), the admin isn't acting in an admin capacity if they stubbornly re-remove it again, they're just an editor editwarring against TPG.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:10, 23 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Yes, for the record, all {{OversightBlock}}s are subject to immediate review by the entire oversight team once they have been made. After changing Ivanvector’s block to an OS block, I immediately emailed the list for review. The content Roxy is discussing was not suppressed, but another OS’r felt it best to remove from the live page. I can’t really say anything else at this time. TonyBallioni (talk) 18:47, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Since we're doing this, let me just clarify that my blanking of the text was not intended an oversight action — indeed, it was not oversighted — but rather for the reason I stated in my edit summary. Even ignoring the content, what remained was a screed-like abuse of the talkpage while blocked, and such disruptions are routinely blanked, in particular for indefinite blocks. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 19:33, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Amorymeltzer: The reason people are "doing this" is because you removed the material in the first place. First place; but not first class. ——SerialNumber54129 22:45, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Suicide by admin? You know, I was kind of expecting that. All the best, Thunderbritches. Bishonen | talk 20:51, 21 February 2019 (UTC).[reply]

• Folks, I've restored this talk page so that all the material MPants himself removed stays removed, and what was added since remains. If you did not see the oversighted content and don't know who did what, please don't try to guess at it and and attempt to restore it to a version that you didn't even see. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 21:00, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • If any of that is directed at me, then please don't try to guess at it and and attempt to restore it to a version that you didn't even see is utterly counter-factual. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:04, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • It was a general comment, as I have seen a number of people apparently making assumptions of who did what and why. At this point, I suggest leaving any more excisions or restorations to oversighters if anyone thinks they need doing. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 21:12, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• For what it's worth, since we're all weighing in, the reason I restored Amorymeltzer's original removal of what was not oversighted was specifically to avoid the exact drama-fest which is currently playing out on this page, after having speedy-closed the long ANI discussions for the same reason. Everyone, please, remember that we're all on the same team here. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 21:11, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Retoring Amorymeltzer's removal seems fine to me, but Tryptofish's restoring of MPants's earlier removals was not. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 21:14, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • It was removed by two different administrators for reasons completely unrelated to the oversighting, reasons which strike me as fairly obvious. I don't see a good reason for you to have restored it in the first place. ~Swarm~ {talk} 21:21, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • At this point, I've lost track of which removals and restorations we are talking about, but I stand by what I did entirely. If one looks at what I actually put back – here, oh horror, is the diff: [12] – there is nothing wrong about it. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:29, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
        • There's nothing wrong with that content, no, and your motivation was honorable. But MPants himself removed it from his own talk page, and he had the right to do that, even if he was angry. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 21:34, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
          • I'll take your revision of your comment, in which you acknowledge that my "motivation was honorable", along with your original acknowledgement that there was "nothing wrong with that content", as good enough for now. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:42, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The way you have ALL behaved here in the last hour or so is actually a disgrace. You should all take yourselves off to ANI. Just remember the guy who's page this actually is probably watching. Leaky caldron (talk) 21:17, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

And you are actually trolling, Leaky caldron. Bishonen | talk 21:21, 21 February 2019 (UTC).[reply]

Trolling does not necessarily equate to untruth. Dumuzid (talk) 22:39, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

MPants, please be aware that you can get the block lifted when you feel ready to come back to editing, by following the instructions in the template above. And I know that I speak for numerous editors when I say that I hope that you do! Really, this entire mess got way out-of-hand. I tried to put back some comments from some of us that I think you might have removed in anger, but was overruled. I do hope you will get the opportunity to read what I previously said here: [13]. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:12, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to second this. After skimming the most recent ANI discussion, I have a fairly good idea of what probably got you this block. Don't let the harassers and trolls get to you like this, because that's only granting them a "win" and making the whole project even more toxic than it was before. Ignore them, don't talk about them, don't post about their off-wiki activities and don't do anything that could be perceived by someone who hasn't looked into the context as "calling them names". There's a reason your user essay was snow-kept and the admin who blocked you had less than 24 hours earlier been one of the editors who !voted to keep it; Wikipedia can be weird about this kinda stuff. We just have to live with it and work within the system -- 90% of the time it does work, after a fashion. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:39, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Y'all might also be interested in signing this aka User:MjolnirPants/nonazis

-Pokerplayer513 (talk) 00:34, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm stopping by to make a few comments that I hope MPants will see. I've decided that I will not sign the nonazis page, and I'd like to explain why, in part because it might be useful to think about when considering a request to come back. I agree with the idea that Wikipedia should not tolerate hate speech. My problem is with calling it "fucking". When people like the trolling sock (or was it a socking troll?) who started all these dramas show up, it's entirely appropriate to shoot down their arguments in terms of content and policies, not to mention common sense, and to show them the door. But it gets tricky to personalize it, even for Nazis. And in particular, using the curse words that trigger a lot of people here, shifts the attention off of where it should be.

Also, I've seen a couple of editors referring to "suicide by admin". I'd prefer that editors not do that, because you probably don't know what was in MPants' mind. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:30, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The ban against you was unjust. You being upset at blatant pov pushing and a condescending attitude is understandable. That guy was an obvious sock. Get back to editing soon. - Pokerplayer513 (talk) 22:40, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Just pointing out that MjolnirPants is not banned. The idea of banning them has never been suggested. At the most extreme end of proposed sanctions they might have been blocked for a while until they acknowledged some suggestions from other editors, but an outright ban has never been on the table. The current oversight situation is an unfortunate side show. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:01, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the issue at ANI and "that guy" is not the reason for the indef block. The block is because of comments here which were oversighted and which we cannot now see. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:37, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Given the history here (and with the caveat that I cannot see the oversighted edits) the possibility exists that MJP did the Wikipedia equivalent of Suicide by cop and committed "Suicide" by administrator.

It would not surprise me if MJP emailed the blocking admin and requested that his user pages be courtesy blanked and possibly protected. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:18, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I remember the edits in question, and (without saying exactly what they were) I could imagine a user seeing the edits as a statement of "either this problem needs to be fixed or I need to go." (Both happened).

The original block disabled his email, so I don't think he emailed a request for a courtesy blank. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:24, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If you're referring to me, they did not. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 17:25, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't say that he did, but rather that he might. I know I would ask for a courtesy blanking if I blanked a page, had TPA revoked, and my comments re-appeared. Technical question: Does revoking email mean that he can't send emails to an admin who otherwise accept emails? Does it mean that he can't receive emails through Wikipedia? I just checked, and the "Email this user" form still comes up (I didn't try actually sending, because I don't want to bother him with a test email). --Guy Macon (talk) 17:44, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Guy Macon: When it became an Oversight block, his email was re-enabled, probably because the only way to appeal his block now is through the Oversight and/or Arbitration Committees. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:47, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The setting prevents sending email through the "email this user" form. I don't know if it prevents access to the form (I suspect not) but disables its functionality I'm assuming on the server end, so probably you could still type out an email in the form, you would then get an error message and your email would not be sent. It does not, for example, prevent a user from opening their mail app, typing in the known email address of an administrator (or other user), and pushing send. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 17:48, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I just want to clarify something that comes out of Guy Macon's observations. If hypothetically anyone had communicated onsite that MPants had made an additional request via email to an admin or oversighter that his talk page be kept blank, I would never have put anything back. That's an entirely different kind of situation than what actually appears to have happened. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:59, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• I re-enabled the email function when I took over the block as an OS block because email is the only way to appeal them, and I wanted to enable appeal via the system email function. I’ve also stated this on the list, but I’ll state it here if MPants is watching; he is also free to email any individual oversighter about this block (including myself as the blocking one, and I’d forward to the list). I have not received an email from him, but can’t speak to anyone else. TonyBallioni (talk) 17:57, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Butting in, like everyone else, but: Can ya'll just stop? There is no reason to be going over all this stuff on a blocked user's talkpage. Butting out. Arkon (talk) 19:25, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ditto, oh and MP, for real though, come back soon. Pokerplayer513 (talk) 00:17, 23 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah. EEng 00:31, 23 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What a senseless drama fest! I confess I just came here to enjoy your red page notice one last time before its predictable demise. Be big, be bold and be back! — JFG ^talk 01:50, 23 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed on "come back soon!" I say that as the one who MfD'ed the editnotice, not expecting all this weird shitshow, like the oversighting and indef stuff. The MfD wasn't a hostile action, it's simply not possible to raise an issue with you about that editnotice's effects – when the editnotice itself demands no criticism of any kind except at a noticeboard – other than by taking the matter to the noticeboard for editnotices. I was actually trying to comply with it even while objecting to it! Was also fully expecting you back within hours, since your short-term block was almost up – and it was bogus to begin with, being punitive rather than preventative. Blargh.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  06:24, 23 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I just noticed the recent events. I also hope that you come back, MjolnirPants, but that you take all the time off you need. —PaleoNeonate – 08:39, 23 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

So sorry to see this. I too would like to see this user come back, but since he's indefinitely blocked, how is that supposed to happen? Jonathunder (talk) 02:42, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. What he would do, if he wants to, is to privately email ArbCom, asking for an unblock. In case he is watching here, I'll add that I would hope that he would read and think about WP:AAB before making that request. --Tryptofish (talk) 02:47, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have opened a discussion at WP:AN#Review of re-block. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:48, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

For the benefit of any talk-page watchers: the outcome of this AN discussion from Feb. 2019 can be seen at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive307#Review of re-block. A further thread on Tryptofish's user talk page (discussing the result) is at User talk:Tryptofish#Post-ANI, re MJP. EdJohnston (talk) 03:53, 14 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hope you're having a happy new year so far. Hopefully the weather down there is better than it is up here, and I trust you and your family are doing well. GMG^talk 15:14, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If you're out there anywhere, my friend, I hope that you will see this: [14]. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:01, 30 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

And this: [15]. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:29, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've unblocked this account and MPants at work. I know there's some other declared alts I've missed, so let me know here and I'll get to them when I'm back online (or any admin can lift them as having the consent of an oversighter to lift the block.) TonyBallioni (talk) 20:12, 20 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Welcome back! --Tryptofish (talk) 21:36, 20 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• 💃🍻🎉🥳 Yay!!! Glad your back!! Captain Kirk says hello!! Atsme 💬 📧 00:28, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Woohoo! If I knew you were coming I'd have baked a cake. It's great to see you're back! nagualdesign 00:35, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The strawberries and chocolate look delicious, along with a couple of packs of fags just for decoration. nagualdesign 23:00, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• @TonyBallioni: you win :) Glad to have you back, MPants! Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 01:04, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Wow, world famous editor MjolnirPants aka MPants at work aka Yeshua AKA Jesus is back? What a throwback Moneytrees🏝️^{Talk/CCI guide} 05:16, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Wikipedia needs editors like you. Welcome back! — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 08:39, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Welcome back! I would not have baked you a cake, but you can have some of my home-smoked ham. Only in death does duty end (talk) 15:15, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Great to have you back! Anarchyte (talk • work) 16:02, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hey - great to see you back MP. Nice to come across a bit of good news for a change. :) GirthSummit _(blether) 16:31, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(Actual serious response for anyone interested) I saw things were getting a bit better in terms of less crossover between the motivated bad political actors and the editing of conspiracy theory/pseudoscience articles, so I made my promises not to dox any more pedophile Nazis. I figure that's a promise that should be easy enough to keep. Not that there's any shortage of them, it's just that most aren't smart enough to need doxxing; they'll get themselves indeffed soon enough without my help. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 16:45, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• +1 GMG^talk 17:08, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

wild garlic

• +1 - if you don't like cake how is this? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:50, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Pretty, and tasty. I recommend blending them with rapeseed oil, walnuts and vintage cheddar for a delicious pesto. Mmm... GirthSummit _(blether) 18:49, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No basil? Well, I think I've just found a pesto I can finally get behind. (I hate basil.) ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 19:15, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Basil? No way. I love basil, but it would be completely overshadowed, this packs a real kick in the (M) pants. GirthSummit _(blether) 20:32, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Its because you are using Cheddar instead of parmesan. Cheddar would fight with the basil but parmesan complements it. While I can forgive the replacement of parmesan with cheddar (if you are not using basil, you could theoretically use any mature hard cheese of preference) I cannot, under any circumstances, countenence the replacement of virgin olive oil with rapeseed oil. Its an abomination. Only in death does duty end (talk) 22:57, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

An abomination it may be, but it's a damned tasty one. You get some really nice rapeseed oils these days, very nutty and subtle. GirthSummit _(blether) 10:07, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Welcome back. Refreshed I hope, and just the right amount of reinvigorated. 😉 SPECIFICO talk 20:33, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  +1. --Hob Gadling (talk) 21:49, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Welcome back! -- Valjean (talk) 22:53, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Welcome back indeed, and a pop-tart: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EErY75MXYXI —PaleoNeonate – 23:56, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Welcome back! Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:48, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Me too! Doug Weller talk
• Good to have you back! Ian.thomson (talk) 22:52, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• I also am glad to see you back. Cardamon (talk) 02:24, 23 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Woah. Welcome back! Grayfell (talk) 07:42, 23 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• A pleasant surprise to see your username again. Welcome back! BlackcurrantTea (talk) 15:00, 25 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who welcomed me back. I honestly expected my return to go mostly under the radar as it were, and it's heartwarming to see so many people happy to see me. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 16:43, 25 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Seeing your username in my Watchlist was heartwarming. I hope to see The Quixotic Potato there one day too. nagualdesign 17:25, 25 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• I was delighted to see your name on my watchlist today, welcome back! GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:47, 26 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Welcome back. I don't believe we've interacted directly, and my motivation is broader than just welcoming you, individually. It's also to say that it cheers me that the verbiage about an indefinite block not necessarily being an infinite block, actually works out sometimes, and therefore might also apply to a couple of others, who I hope to see back as well, one day. Enjoy your welcome party! Mathglot (talk) 22:29, 26 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't believe we have, though I've seen your handle and my hind brain tells me it was on some good edits (templates? I think). Thanks, I'm glad to be back. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 22:39, 26 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• One needs a strong stomach to see how sausage is made. Don't let it change you. O3000, Ret. (talk) 00:19, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Precious

understanding of metal

Thank you for quality article The Dresden Files short fiction, for edit summaries for posterity ("the lead is short, but it hits every point in the article, which is also quite short") and understanding, for resilience and metal music, - you are an awesome Wikipedian!

You are recipient no. 2582 of Precious, a prize of QAI, aka the cabal of the outcast. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:42, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Would you be so kind as to share the diffs to support your wild accusations of misrepresentation, bald-faced lies, and racism? Stonkaments (talk) 21:59, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Stonkaments: Oh, those accusations were anything but wild. If you have a problem with it, go ahead and complain at ANI, at which point I'll come with dozens, if not hundreds of diffs and links to WP:NOFUCKINGNAZIS and WP:CRUSH for all those uninvolved admins to ruminate on. But do not post this kind of crap to my talk page again. In fact, don't post anything to my talk page again. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 22:51, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(talk page stalker) Conspiracies, wikiracism and bald-faced lies!

Sorry what was the question again I forgot — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 22:22, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• We have plenty of pictures of cloudless sunny days. Still possible we could redirect this article. Like...remember when e-cards were a thing? Your great-aunt just got dial up and she wanted everyone to know. GMG^talk 22:43, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@GreenMeansGo: The more I browse through that talk page's archives (looking for consensus discussions and RfCs), the more I think you've got the right idea. We should redirect it to Special:random. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 19:25, 29 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Well, I just went back over MPants' edits (from both accounts) over the past several days, and (not seeing any diffs in the OP's post here), it seems to me, that if we're speaking of accusations, then there really ought to be something to back up the accusation being made against MPants here. I see this: [16], which does not strike me as incorrect, and I'm really only seeing a WP:BOOMERANG here. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:15, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• The "accusations" (it was only one, and it was addressed at Stonk's comment, not stonk themselves) in question happened here, in which I characterized Stonk's description of their months-long push against the consensus at Race and intelligence as somewhere between "gross misrepresentation of what happened" and "bald-faced lies about what the sources and other editors said". And I absolutely stand by that, as there's at least one claim in the edit I referred to which Stonk has previously admitted was false. Stonk also has months of refusing to accept the consensus, constantly re-litigating a claim which Stonk claims not to actually believe and going out of their way to endorse and support disruptive editors under his belt, as well.

I really wanted to avoid heading to the drama boards so soon after coming back, but right now, if I want to actually improve this project, I need to at least give serious consideration to asking that Stonk be topic banned in response to their constant sealioning. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 23:46, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

huh? — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 10:28, 29 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You know, I actually saw that, and I didn't think for a minute that it was an accusation that matched the opening post here. Saying that someone else's statement is misleading, even in the extreme, is just how users with opposing views agree or disagree at AE. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:32, 29 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Can one of you guys explain the connection? Call me dumb (you won't be the first), but I'm not seeing how that ANI section relates to this. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 18:38, 29 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'll try to explain if you can tell me which one I am: a leftard, or a libtard. (I wanna be both.) That was an IP who was edit warring to make brain size to say that brain size varies with skin color. (I guess size matters.) The IP was also saying that the scientific consensus was being challenged by lots of new re-surch. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:45, 29 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Tryptofish, your answer sounds much intelligenter than how I would've explained the connection. Cookie for you. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 19:06, 29 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yummy! --Tryptofish (talk) 19:13, 29 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(ec)So it was just a comparison of a similar (if less civil) POV pusher. Got it, you libtard leftard. Speaking of which, anyone want to create a new usercat:Libtards? ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 19:16, 29 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Fish no like cats. But I can just imagine the resulting WP:CFD. Don't mess with the category nazis police! --Tryptofish (talk) 19:20, 29 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Last I heard, the category popo lost their leader. A little fish told me. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 19:25, 29 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

But little cat-tards keep popping up like dandelions or zombies or something. You know the cliché about "those who can, do, and those who can't, teach". This is like "those who can create content do, and those who can't police Da Rulez^TM." Probably on the spectrum or something... oh, wait a minute, sorry... --Tryptofish (talk) 19:31, 29 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• I absolutely agree that Stonkaments' disruption has reached the level where a t-ban would be appropriate. For context though, you might want to be aware that they have been getting encouragement from a more experienced editor, Ferahgo the Assassin, who was previously topic-banned from R&I. According to this talk page thread, where the most recent update occurred just yesterday, Feragho is planning to launch another RfC on race and intelligence soon, in coordination with the publication of a paper she thinks will turn the tide. Generalrelative (talk) 02:09, 29 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm honestly starting to wonder if it isn't time to take this to Arbcom. This was a problem 2 years ago. It's still a problem, and it's stemming now (as then) from a small group of editors who are determined to undermine the consensus of not just WP, but of the scientific community. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 02:48, 29 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Realistically Arbcom are not going to do anything other than sanction the obvious socks and worst offenders as a short term solution. Actually getting a long term resolution for the topic would require banning the scientific racism proponents, but it would require them to take a position on the content of the article. And if they started to do that, it would be open season for every topic area where you have miniorities to the generally accepted consensus pushing their fringe views. We are talking politics, gun control etc. And with the exception of maybe Beeblebrox, I doubt any of the current Arbcom, like their forebears, are willing to stick their neck out that far. Arbcom seems to have forgotton its job is to resolve disputes that the community is unable to handle. Its job isnt to sweep it under the carpet until a later time. Which is what almost always happens with content disputes. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:19, 29 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That tracks with my expectations of Arbcom. I imagine it as sort of a tactical nuke: they'll destroy the deployed forces on both sides, and completely ignore the reserves.

I imagine that the worst of the PUV pushers will be banned, along with the editors who've been most frustrated by them, topic bans handed out to 1 or 2 others (including to editors who've been defending the accuracy of the article) and 1 or 2 more editors will be "admonished".

And there's the issue of the nature of the problem, as you pointed out. Arbcom will apparently need to take a side on a topic matter, which carries a whole host of problems. But this is also where I'm wondering if this situation is different, because the sources are quite clear (the APA commissioned a publication specifically to address the core content question here of "what is the scientific consensus" and no-one has ever presented a source that argues with that which has anywhere near the weight of it), yet one side is determined to minimize or alter what we say about the same question. It's less of a content dispute and more of a content policy dispute. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:12, 29 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

My advice to anyone considering ArbCom is: don't. There are existing discretionary sanctions for Race and Intelligence, so make use of those. (If the situation gets bad enough, consider a structured RfC on the issue of scientific consensus, modeled on WP:GMORFC, where the outcome will be "this is what the community already decided, so stuff it".) But if ArbCom takes a case, they end up slamming the hammer down on anyone who has said anything intemperate: if the opposition can find the right diff, that will be taken out of context and used against you. Too much collateral damage. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:40, 29 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't much mind the thought of being sanctioned myself. Hell, I've considered getting myself re-blocked on and off since about the second day after I came back.

But there are good editors on that talk page who've expressed very understandable frustration at the non-stop POV push and repetitive arguments. This is why I'm torn. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 19:16, 29 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Don't. Put the mouse down, and step slowly away from the keyboard. Take anyone who makes trouble to WP:AE. Don't ask for ECP. Ask for a topic ban. Rinse and repeat. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:23, 29 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]