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I have noticed this a few times where what I consider are decent quality articles getting repeatedly rejected. I know that reviewers are not supposed to take previous reviews into consideration when reviewing a new article, but it's hard to deny that seeing say 5 rejections must surely subconsciously or consciously affect the review of a new draft submission.

Often the initial article definitely had reason to be rejected, but over time improvements get made and in my opinion become fairly good, well written and sourced, but I feel as if the previous rejections often influence or bias the latest AfC submission. I don't want to list examples, but has anyone else had this experience, if so, what are some alternatives to AfC - that perhaps works like an AfD where there is more community consensus. Mr Vili talk 12:06, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I assume you mean declined NOT rejected, drafts are only rejected once, after which they are not considered again, when reviewing I always check to see if previous decline reasons have been addressed, if improvements have been made I will accept. Theroadislong (talk) 12:10, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Mr vili: I think you should list examples, otherwise this is just ranting.

Perhaps you could also enlighten us on what makes you more qualified than a reviewer to judge what is "decent quality"? I'm not for a moment suggesting that isn't possible, just wondering why you feel a number of reviewers are all wrong, and you alone are right.

Also, a technical point: it is highly unlikely that a draft gets "repeatedly rejected", because rejection is meant to be the end of the road. You probably mean repeatedly declined. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 12:11, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You say you don't wish to give a specific example of a draft that has been repeatedly and incorrectly declined, but it is difficult to judge such a claim without one. AFC is almost always a voluntary process(except in cases of things like topic bans/COI). If an editor in good faith feels that the numerous, more experienced reviewers have gotten it wrong(not impossible, but seems unlikely), they should move the draft themselves and roll the dice that it won't be nominated for AfD or other forms of deletion. 331dot (talk) 12:29, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@331dot @DoubleGrazing Was probably this version of Draft:Tristan Tate. It was moved into mainspace anyway after Mr vili took me to dispute resolution for declining it. PARAKANYAA (talk) 01:53, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you are confident a draft should be accepted, just accept it (if you're an AFC reviewer) or move it to mainspace (if you're not an AFC reviewer). Draftspace is optional. However I hope you are well-calibrated to the norms of AFD if you are accepting marginal drafts, else a bunch of drafts you accept may end up getting deleted at AFD. There is probably a reason that these drafts are getting declined, and that reason might not be "AFC is broken/biased". I would encourage you to post examples if you want to discuss this in more detail. –Novem Linguae (talk) 12:40, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is likely the result of me declining Draft:Tristan Tate (which was dragged into mainspace anyway after he took me to dispute resolution for declining the draft. Thanks!). Even if it was unrelated to notability, that article cited several unreliable sources and bringing it to mainspace forced other editors to clean it up for you. BLPs especially are a contentious topic and need to cite only reliable sources. That draft did not. PARAKANYAA (talk) 01:50, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The AFD related to that Tristan Tate article (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tristan Tate (2nd nomination)) is quite messy. There are several newer editors who aren't familiar with the nuances of WP:GNG claiming that various non-GNG sources are GNG. –Novem Linguae (talk) 02:38, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And then accusing me of bludgeoning for pointing it out! Argh. PARAKANYAA (talk) 02:39, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

good heavens. this whole discussion is a mess, and I don't want to be part of it. Speaking for us all. -- asilvering (talk) 11:46, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Mr vili I think I get what you mean. Personally, I saw that Dexerto was in the draftspace and had been declined a couple times due to not great sourcing. Probably discouraged the original creator. I improved it myself, added some WP:RELIABLE sources here and there and decided to move it to the main space. Notability was met for me. The fact that Dexerto is used as a source in many articles on Wikipedia also affirmed notability.

I think Tristan Tate should be kept, so I'm going to put in my two cents there. There is some iffy sourcing there though so I think cleanup is in place. TLA^tlak 03:26, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@I'm tla I don't want to bludgeon the discussion so I'm asking you here, but are you aware of WP:BLPCRIME and WP:PERPETRATOR? That's the secondary reason I declined the draft. While there are reliable sources that discuss him, it's all in reference to his and his brother's criminal case (almost exclusively his brother) and generally from a policy POV it is considered a very bad idea to make an article on a living person known for committing a crime when they have not been convicted yet. The sourcing exclusively backs up the crime conviction notability, even ignoring the fact that it's a duplicate of his brother info wise. PARAKANYAA (talk) 03:40, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, we'll have to be careful. But Tristan Tate is certainly not known only in connection with a criminal event or trial. I'm sure there are other reliable sources but requires a deep dig-up that don't hone in on the criminal case. TLA^tlak 03:51, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@I'm tla As far as I can see, no reliable ones discuss him outside of the court case, unlike his brother. A lot of sources have been presented to try to justify it and none have been reliable. PARAKANYAA (talk) 03:52, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't say completely non-reliable. Yeah there's a bunch of rando blogs and tabloid stuff, but from a quick search I see stuff from Hindustan Times and Dexerto outside of the criminal cases. These are WP:MREL, but they still somewhat contribute. TLA^tlak 04:08, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You can't really partially contribute to notability. It's either there or it isn't. PARAKANYAA (talk) 16:03, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I just want to mention, this was not specifically about Tristan Tate, I have noticed it in a few other articles in the past but anyways I didn't want to distract this discussion with the controversial nature of Tristan Tate. I was merely curious as to whether others have also experienced this issue. Mr Vili talk 03:56, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Mr vili Your statement makes sense. I think AfC reviewers wouldn't want to take a big risk accepting a possibly non-notable subject, especially BLPs. TLA^tlak 04:11, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In the context of BLPs I think it certainly makes sense to be a bit more cautious, which to me also highlights the need for a way to gain greater community consensus to avoid the issue of being overly cautious and just flat out rejecting an article which would otherwise be considered notable. Mr Vili talk 04:17, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A dedicated additional process like that would be nice, but it would probably very annoying and just make it all complicated. Also I think where we are discuss right now is a fine place to discuss on-the-verge drafts. I don't think the issue is that serious either, if a topic is notable it's most likely that one day an editor will come across, ensure it's properly cited, and get it accepted. TLA^tlak 04:25, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The way to gain community consensus is usually AfD. By itself, that wouldn't be a problem: AfC reviewers are encouraged (I hope) to accept borderline drafts even if they run the risk of being nominated for deletion, as this provides a way to get a large number of eyes on a new article and source editor opinions. However, this can be a stressful process sometimes for both the reviewer and submitter, which is why some reviewers might hesitate to accept some drafts without more solid groundwork. I'm not opinionated one way or another in this discussion, just sharing my perspective on why you may be seeing what you're seeing. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 04:28, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@I'm tla @TechnoSquirrel69 Perhaps in the AfC process, there should be an "official" mechanism in the workflow for an experienced editor (maybe uninvolved or 100+ edits) to nominate a declined request for dispute, perhaps within here. I may possibly be over-complicating it, but I much prefer the AfD process to gain community consensus over singular reviewers which may or may not have their own biases, or be influenced by previously declined reviews - anyways just an opinion Mr Vili talk 05:34, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I can already see UPE editors would want to take advantage of a process like that. Maybe something like 250+ edits could be okay. I wouldn't mind a process like that, though, you could take it to WP:Village pump (idea lab)? TLA^tlak 05:38, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not to shoot down your ideas out of hand, but I'm not immediately seeing the need for a new discussion venue in this case. As you mentioned, AfD is an option, as is asking at the help desk or the Teahouse. That's about it for official processes (I believe), but reviewers will often discuss possibly contentious or difficult reviews on this talk page or in the NPP Discord server. What additional benefit or opportunity for discussion would be provided with a new venue? —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 05:46, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It already exists. WP:DRAFTOBJECT. You can just move it to mainspace. Draftspace is optional and anyone (within reason) can switch a draft to mainspace and the AFD process at any time. –Novem Linguae (talk) 06:34, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Adding to what Novem Linguae said, there's also an in-AfC process at WP:AFCHD. -- asilvering (talk) 11:54, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Mr vili: Also, if we're discussing the relationship of AfC reviewers to demonstrating notability, there was also a recent discussion at § Ettrick and Northern that you might be interested in. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 04:34, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I can't speak for anyone else, but when I see a draft that has been declined a few times already it's either a) an open-shut obvious fail being repeatedly resubmitted by an editor who doesn't understand or doesn't care about the feedback or b) something an editor has been putting a lot of effort into, so previous declines are barely relevant because they were stamped on a draft that was so significantly different from the one I then end up reviewing. Rarely anything in the middle. If your article has 5 declines on it and you're still resubmitting, it's probably the former, sorry. You can always start a thread at WP:AFCHD if you want to object. -- asilvering (talk) 11:53, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To make a long story short, IMO in practice, on average, passing AFC is a higher standard than passing NPP/AFD. I've done a lot of NPP and later a small amount of AFC review. When starting the latter it was explained that theoretically, the criteria for passing AFC is having a good chance at passing AFD. In reality, the criteria for passing at NPP/AFD is "should this topic have an article?" (and 95% of the time that is "Does the topic pass wp:notability?") and not other article quality issues. I think that the de facto requirements for passing AFC is that the article does not have any other significant quality issues. I think that this is simply human nature.....what reviewer is going to want to put their stamp of approval on an article which has significant problems even if it would pass NPP/AFD? I'm not implying that this is good or bad, I'm just noting it and noting that I think that this phenomena is relevant to some of the types of discussions that often come up. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 15:28, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I know I said this when you made similar comments before, but for anyone reading this, if you see this happening - ie, someone declining an article that would pass NPP/AfD - please bring it up with the reviewer, because that should not be happening. -- asilvering (talk) 15:55, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. I saw a rejected draft today that 22 references, and most of them looked reasonable. Resubmitted it because that's just silly to reject (didn't have time to formally do a full review). Primefac (talk) 19:45, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

and I just accepted it. Theroadislong (talk) 19:52, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think that it's a bit ingrained. Often when people talk about "article improvement before it's ready for mainspace" (vs. the narrower topic of just including references to establish wp:notability) they are often talking about article quality issues which would not be a cause for rejection at NPP/AFD. Also, it's human nature to be cautious about passing something, doubly so if they are concerned that someone might critique them for passing an edge case article which would be 90% sure of passing AFD (and NPP) Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 21:07, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, and the way to deal with that is to bring it up with the reviewer, because that should not be happening. I'm not saying you have to go yell at them. It's perfectly fine to have sympathy. But we shouldn't be sitting on our hands saying "alas, it's just human nature to decline drafts without good reason" and acting as though there is nothing to be done. Reviewers who decline drafts incorrectly aren't going to get any better at it if no one tells them they've messed up. -- asilvering (talk) 21:42, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I took a look at a bunch of the ones at the help desk. There's another common situation, perhaps the most common one there. That is where the actual problem is wp:notability and a wp:ver type rejection reason is given. Then the author really doesn't understand what the problem is and exactly what needs to be done to fix it, or why fixing it will be impossible if the needed GNG sources don't exist. I might try helping a bit on some of those at the help desk to do what you say and to get more of an understanding. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 22:53, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Some of the decline template reasons aren't that great – either vague or some editors may not use the appropriate one. It might be worth striking up more specific decline reason templates for AfC revewiers too?

I think declining can also have something to do with potential WP:COI in regards to WP:BLP and WP:CORP drafts. Sometimes I look at Draft submissions at New Pages Feed that could meet notability but there is a hint of advertising or conflict of interest, judging by the username or the article's tone. I might take a stab at some declined drafts to see if I can bring them up to Wikipedia's requirements.

Also @Primefac I noticed on Sunday you replied to all AfC participant requests other than mine – are you still reviewing my case? I'm keen to get involved in this process via a probationary period of some sort. Thaks. TLA^tlak 02:09, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I am still reviewing. Your participation in various discussions here is helping that process. Primefac (talk) 07:31, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the update! TLA^tlak 07:46, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In regards to the 22-source decline draft, same thing. Reviewer had posted a COI notice on the creator's other draft that was interconnected (person & association). It's possible that caused a decline for the 22-source draft. TLA^tlak 02:24, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A COI is not a reason to decline a draft; a promotional page is a reason to decline a page, but COI editors can (admittedly rarely) write neutral articles. Primefac (talk) 07:31, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I guess it depends on how promotional it is. And fax, I see so many clearly use ChatGPT or an WP:CORP draft completely rely on the company's own website and press releases. TLA^tlak 07:48, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

fyi, if you see that a draft or article is mostly citing the company's own website and various press releases, this is a strong hint that running it through earwig might show obvious copyvio. -- asilvering (talk) 18:09, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So, if the wp:afc passage standard is intended to be a reasonable chance of passage at AFD, why are there "decline" templates for reasons which are not a reason for deletion of an article? Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 21:34, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I guess an example WP:NPOV. I think people just have higher standards with an AfC submission (it's like decline or accept) but at AfD people are lenient as it would "already" be in the mainspace which = opportunity for other editors to "fix" TLA^tlak 03:15, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Because AFC reviewers individually and collectively have requirements beyond WP:LIKELY to survive WP:AFD. WP:NPOV is the only one in the reviewer instructions but certainly not the only one in play. Reviewers seem to appreciate additional latitude to decline because you do risk the scorn of other editors for accepting a marginal draft. ~Kvng (talk) 22:04, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Kvng: (and to others) I think that you have accurately described the situation. Noting, you have described a situation which conflicts with the official AFC passage criteria. I'm not implying which one is a better idea, but wouldn't it be a good idea to reconcile the two? North8000 (talk) 17:28, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If it means changing the acceptance criteria to include a quality component, no, that takes us further from the Wikipedia way. Changing reviewer behavior to more closely match reviewing instructions will require a cultural change at AfC. I'm not sure where to start with that. ~Kvng (talk) 14:20, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Kvng: I think that the latter would be easier than you realize. I think that most reviewers doing non-AFC criteria rejections do it out of fear / obligation including for the reason described in your 22:04, 17 March 2024 post. AFC also gives mixed signals on this, including by having rejection templates for criteria which are not AFC rejection criteria. And easy start would be to get rid of non-AFC criteria rejection templates. And n the instruction directly say that it is OK to pass articles (and they should pass articles) with quality problems if the AFC criteria have been met. North8000 (talk) 20:07, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I concur with North8000 on his first point. I was also in the "apply quality criteria to avoid criticism" camp when I started reviewing, but after a short discussion with an experienced reviewer, I quickly switched my priorities to be more in line with meeting core policies than assessing things like prose quality or formatting. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 20:32, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Tristan Tate[edit]

Since we are discussing the Tristan Tate article, I would like feedback on whether what I did with that page was reasonable. As has been mentioned, the article was submitted to AFC, reasonably, and declined, reasonably. The originator then requested discussion at DRN. The author said that they wanted the draft moved into article space so that there could be a deletion discussion to obtain a rough consensus on individual notability.

DRN has not in the past been a forum for a discussion of draft declines, which are discussed at the AFC Help Desk or the Teahouse. Also, I had previously declined an earlier version of the draft, and so had become involved and would not be a neutral mediator. However, I was willing to ignore the rule that a reviewer should only accept a draft if they thought that there was a greater than 50% chance that it would be kept after AFD. I had no idea what the likelihood was that it would be kept at AFD, but I thought that it was in the interests of the encyclopedia to resolve the question of the biographical notability of Tristan Tate with an AFD. So I said that if the draft was resubmitted to AFC again, I would accept it for the purpose of enabling a deletion discussion. The originator resubmitted, and I accepted, and there was a seven-day AFD, which has now been non-admin closed as Keep. So my question is: Do other reviewers think that I reasonably applied Ignore All Rules? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:38, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I will also comment that I think that the non-administrative close was questionable because the AFD had been contentious, and the guideline says that contentious closes should be left to admins. But that is a matter either for discussion with the closer or for Deletion Review. It would have been a valid admin close, and I am very seldom inclined to criticize a non-admin close simply for being a non-admin close. But if it comes to Deletion Review, I will !vote to Overturn to Relist to allow an admin to close after another week, but that is only my opinion. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:38, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have accepted drafts knowing that they would probably be sent to AFD, so I don't think there's anything wrong with what you did here. Primefac (talk) 18:32, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The close was self reverted. But the afd is still leaning keep. I think that's your answer right there, Robert. You accepted a draft that is so far surviving a deletion discussion. Looks like a good accept to me. –Novem Linguae (talk) 19:02, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sometimes, when I am reviewing drafts that have the same titles as existing titles in article space, I review a draft that has a comment from a reviewer that it is good, but there is a redirect at the title. This implies that the reviewer would like to accept the draft but needs technical assistance. This in turn implies that the existence of {{db-afc-move}} is not well known. When I encounter such a comment, I give the draft a quick review to see if I agree that it should be accepted. If so, I move the blocking redirect to limbo, tag it as {{db-moved}}, and accept the draft. So my question is whether there should be some way that the availability of {{db-afc-move}} should be better known. Db-afc-move can be either applied via Twinkle or inserted by editing, but only if the reviewer knows about it. Does it need to be better known as part of the standard toolkit for AFC reviewers? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:04, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

When (on the relatively few occasions) I request Db-afc-move speedy on a redir that's in the way, I usually add a comment to the draft saying this is ready to be accepted, pending the speedy. Which sounds like what you're describing. Is that not the right way to go about it, then? -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 17:14, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think it might depend on the exact wording of the AFC comment; I can very easily see someone adding "oh but there's a redirect there" in much the same way you (Robert) add "this will need adding to the dab" comments; i.e. it's not a statement of problem but just a statement of fact. I do also see comments like DoubleGrazing's when I am evaluating {{db-afc-move}} requests. There is a feature request to add the db- template into the AFCH workflow, but who knows when that will get actioned.

I would also question why, if a reviewer is saying "I can't accept this because of a redirect", they don't know about {{db-move}} itself. So this might be a general-knowledge issue for new(er) reviewers. Primefac (talk) 17:20, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've not had (that I know of) any issues with this process, usually the speedy is carried out within a few hours anyway. What I could do, and will try to remember, is to also put the draft in question under review, so nobody else wastes time reviewing something that I've already accepted in all but name. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 17:27, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's what I do. I mark it under review then also add a comment that I am waiting for the redirect to be deleted. I think there are reviewers who do not know about the template though it is covered in the review instructions (bottom of Step 4: Accepting a submission). S0091 (talk) 17:57, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My whole point, maybe not clear, is that some reviewers are not aware of {{db-afc-move}} or even of {{db-move}}. In the case that I had seen, the reviewer had commented on the existence of the redirect, and said that the draft was good. If they had known about tagging the redirect, I am sure that they would have tagged the redirect. What I am saying is that we have a knowledge problem. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:57, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is hard. Of the many sources listed, most of them are not actually useful for notability purposes, but there are several album reviews that, while not directly showing notability for the person, make it seem more likely that otehr sources exist. I'm tempted to throw the dog a bone and accept, but what gives me pause is that:

A: The article has been repeatedly recreated and speedily deleted on itwiki, including twice by the draft author

B: If the draft author has been pushing to get this article created for years, they've likely scraped the bottom of the barrel for sources at this point.

Any of y'all have advice? Cheers, Mach61 15:23, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You have the option to accept and then immediately send it to WP:AFD to get a definitive read from the community on these questions. If we continue to decline this marginal draft, it will continue to bounce around in AfC purgatory which is not good for AfC or anyone else. ~Kvng (talk) 21:56, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

for possibly / marginally notable articles, i usually accept, but not press "patrolled". this is to leave it open for someone at new pages feed to AFD if needed. She was ^afairy 08:08, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, would someone cast fresh eyes on Draft:Tania Peitzker? The editor has removed COI and autobiography tags giving edit summaries that they are not Peitzker, yet on Wikipedia Commons, when they uploaded File:Cairns home selfie.jpg and File:Tania Peitzker in Strasbourg 2023.jpg they describe the images as 'selfies' and 'own work'. See also AfD from eight years ago. Needs a good sift through the sources to see if there are WP:THREE that are actually independent, secondary, in-depth coverage. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 17:30, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User:Curb Safe Charmer - I haven't reviewed the sources, but there is a conflict of interest. GreenJeans808 is not Peitzker, but appears to be an associate or employee of Peitzker. GreenJeans808 took the infobox photograph. The other two pictures are selfies taken by Peitzker, which means that she provided them to GreenJeans808. I have filed a report at the conflict of interest noticeboard and will put the COI tag back on the draft. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:03, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User:Robert McClenon. To be able to take a self portrait of Tania Peitzker one has to be Tania Peitzker. This is an autobiography. duffbeerforme (talk) 08:50, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have an open BRFA to replace EranBot's task of reporting potential copyright issues from CopyPatrol to PageTriage (NewPagesFeed) used by AFC at Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/CopyPatrolBot. — JJMC89 (T·C) 23:14, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Will someone please review this draft with particular focus on whether the discussion of Mitch McConnell is consistent with the policy on biographies of living persons? I don't like Mr. McConnell, which doesn't mean I can't review it, because I just have to remember neutral point of view, but if I think that the discussion of his health is questionable, I think that it is worth asking for another opinion, maybe from an editor who isn't an American. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:08, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the draft, I agree with you that it should be declined because it is too soon. Regarding the health issues, mentioned in more detail in Mitch McConnell, since he is a public figure and the sources are reliable and the matter is treated in a neutral tone, I think it is appropriate to mention them. Ruud Buitelaar (talk) 03:31, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

From an editorial perspective, I think there is too much detail about his health; "health scares" is editorialised, as is "frozen up". State that he has health issues, he refuses to resign, and that he's not running for office again. Three sentences without the detail.

Also agree that it's too soon to publish, especially since there don't seem to actually be any candidates. Primefac (talk) 07:18, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It would be good to have a subst'able response template to place on users' talk pages, when they make this mistake. It seems to be a daily occurrence that some person from India places a draft biography into WP:Articles for creation/Redirects instead of using a sandbox or draftspace. That in itself is very weird, why are so many people from India are writing bios at AFC/R? There should be a standardized response to these people to tell them to use the article wizard, draft space, or a user sandbox, instead of making an illegal request at AFC/R. Considering how common this has become recently, there should be a template response to this situation, just as we have template rejection closures at AFC/R for closing requests. -- 65.92.247.66 (talk) 07:31, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd be in support of this. It has slowed down a little bit but for a good while we were getting at least one draft attempt at really weird AFC-related redirect talk pages (like... in places where I am literally the only page watcher... who finds these things?). A note about the "right place" might help over simply reverting them with "wrong location" as the edit summary. Primefac (talk) 12:15, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I will note that we have {{Uw-draftfirst}} which theoretically could be used in these sorts of circumstances, though it's not perfect. Primefac (talk) 12:16, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I recently came across an AFC submission that was (in my humble but thoroughly considered opinion) incorrectly declined. Rather than leaving it to continue moldering away in draftspace, I would like to add some additional referenced content to remove all possibility of doubt as to notability, remove the AFC tags, and boldly move it to mainspace. As an uninvolved editor, am I at liberty to do so? Or since it has already been submitted to AFC, am I required to resubmit it? (This seems like it would be a very common question but for some reason all the documentation I'm seeing on AFC or WPAFC is addressed either to the original article creator or to would-be reviewers, not to intermeddling randos such as I. Apologies if I am overlooking something obvious.) Thanks! -- Visviva (talk) 00:22, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Unless an editor is under a community-enforced restriction to only be able to make drafts and not mainspace articles, AfC is entirely optional. Any editor can take any draft and move them to mainspace (and anyone can move mainspace articles into drafts, which is a lot more controversial). If someone doesn't think an article meets notability standards, then they'll take it to Articles for Deletion for the community to decide. Otherwise, you're free to do whatever you want. Though if you're moving someone else's draft to mainspace, it's considered polite to ask them first, unless they're no longer an active editor. Silverseren^C 00:36, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Silverseren. Draftspace is optional, which is codified in WP:DRAFTOBJECT. Any editor in good standing and acting in good faith can just move the page from draftspace to mainspace, even if the draft has been declined. –Novem Linguae (talk) 07:00, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is another discussion about how much control reviewers have over an article, and I am bringing it here, because I think that another experienced editor and I have a good-faith disagreement. An editor wrote a biography of a Taiwanese general, Tang Chia-kun. in article space, but it had no sources. A reviewer moved it to draft space. So far, there is no disagreement that the draftification was correct. Another editor made some changes and added two sources, and submitted the draft for review. The originator then copy-pasted the revised draft into article space. The question is what to do at this point. It looked to me like a case of objecting to draftification. I redirected the draft to the article. One question is whether there is any way to enforce draft review. My view is that there is not a way to enforce draft review, in the encyclopedia anyone can edit. Bypassing draft review is undesirable but permitted. The article can be nominated for deletion, but the subject does appear to be notable. So is there a way for enforce draft review, or is this a case where about all we can do is tag the article? Robert McClenon (talk) 16:19, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you want to "enforce draft review"? You say that the subject is notable and is sourced so no longer an unsourced BLP so tag for any other issues and job done - as far as AfC reviews are concerned. In this case I see that Cdjp1 improved the draft and the original author has taken this and recreated with no attribution so that is a separate issue. This could/should be fixed with a WP:HISTMERGE or if caught before the live version was further changed a round-robin move would have had the same effect. KylieTastic (talk) 19:08, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The "disagreement" is more just my ignorance of a process I don't interact with, so apologies for any difficulties this has caused. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 23:15, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User:KylieTastic - Maybe I didn't clarify things. I don't want to enforce draft review. It was User:Cdjp1 who wanted to ensureasked about ensuring that the draft was reviewed properly rather than just pushed into article space. I wanted to clarify that we don't enforce draft review, because the use of draft space is optional, except in a few cases, and Wikipedia is the encyclopedia that (almost) anyone can edit. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:46, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Cdjp1 you were right to be concerned and raising your concern got eyes on the subject which is a good thing. We want to discourage people doing this sort of thing but the policies do allow it (ish... as a DRAFTOBJECT would say move not copy and loose attribution/history). The authors talk page clearly shows they have issues understanding the policies and guidelines. Luckily we have NPP to fall back on so thus it's no issue anyway. Thanks for doing the actual work to add some sourcing. Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 10:17, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here is my view: Using draft space to draft an article does not obligate an editor to use the AFC process, any more than use of their sandbox space does. The AFC process is entirely optional except for COI editors, IP editors and new editors who are not autoconfirmed. I object to any editor trying to portray AFC as anything more than optional. Any editor who is not in those restricted groups can move their work in progress to the main space anytime they want, especially so if a more experienced editor has improved the draft. We have WP:NPP and the three deletion processes to deal with poor quality articles, as well as the normal editing process, which is all important. Cullen328 (talk) 08:16, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Draftification is either a new stage of the article creation gauntlet or a sneaky path to deletion. Why do we do this to ourselves? ~Kvng (talk) 19:47, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello,

2A02:560:5829:B000:74F7:8956:BE7C:7E36 recently left a comment on my talk page in regards to the section heading prefixes on WP:AFC/R and AFC/C, remarking that ""Category request" at the start of every section heading on the category requests page and "Redirect request" on the redirect requests page doesn't make much sense. It did make sense when there was a joint page for both, obviously, but now it's just clutter."

I agree, and would propose either dropping the prefix entirely, or at least shortening it to "Request:". If it is dropped entirely, it would probably be a good idea to add filler text for empty requests (which there seem to be a lot of for some reason) so it isn't just an empty header. Thoughts? ~ Eejit43 (talk) 21:54, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think they should remain. It provides a visual reminder to people who might post drafts to those pages, that they are for redirects or categories, through the mass of section header names. Though it doesn't prevent everyone from doing so, it may prevent some. -- 65.92.247.66 (talk) 03:29, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Primefac (talk) 07:49, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the ip's statement. I have seen people placing misplaced (auto)bios while not realising that the pages are for redirects/categories. I also makes sense to people on which type (redirect or category) to place on the respective page. I may also support "Request:" headers since the pages were split for simplicity. Toadette ^{(Let's discuss together!)} 09:11, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That is a good point, and something I hadn't considered. I guess it would make sense for the headers to stay, unless we can find a better way to discourage those improper requests... ~ Eejit43 (talk) 12:03, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, all,

I'm running into drafts that reviewers say are "blank" but if you look at the page history, there is clearly an article there, the new editor mistakenly put the content between code that hides it. I don't think that this should be a test to see how adept editors are at understanding Wikicode, just remove the <-- --> code and, voila, an article appears. Just take a second to remove the Wikicode and evaluate the article that they wrote, don't reject the article for being blank. Thank you very much for all of the work you do. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:10, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi all,

I just stumbled across Draft:Template: Campaignbox Dano-German Conflicts, which both Relativity and User4edits declined for only being an infobox and not being at WP:RT, respectively. (The latter followed this up with a post mentioning it at WP:RT.) This seems to conflict with what I've seen in some other cases (I've seen templates submitted and accepted through AfC), and WP:WikiProject Articles for creation/Reviewing instructions states, Articles for creation can also be used to submit templates, disambiguation pages and articles for deletion discussions. Is this something which should be clarified (in one direction or another) somewhere? LittlePuppers (talk) 06:59, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Templates can go through AFC, they just... don't really need to. Unless a template is useless, "bad" (coding-wise), or otherwise unsuitable for actual use in the article space, I would probably just accept it. Primefac (talk) 08:24, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

IPs still need to create via AfC as they can't create direct so they still have a need. KylieTastic (talk) 18:13, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also a good point. Primefac (talk) 20:04, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't RT just the ewuivalent of WP:Requested articles, in that you do not write the template, you just request one. Wherease if you write a draft template, it'd be in draft/sandbox space instead, which would need to go through the AFC submit process -- 65.92.247.66 (talk) 17:56, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yup KylieTastic (talk) 18:09, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As part of helping a bit with the implementation of WP:PIQA, I sometimes look at Category:Pages using WikiProject banner shell without a project-independent quality rating and noticed it's been getting bigger. In particular, I noticed edits like https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jesse_Fischer&diff=prev&oldid=1215194014 where the AFCH script sets the WikiProject ratings and a bot comes along and adds a banner shell. Some bots convert the individual ratings to the banner shell, some don't (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AJesse_Fischer&diff=1215308101&oldid=1215217683). I was wondering if it would be more efficient for the AFCH script itself to be modified to streamline things? Also pinging @MSGJ: for their awareness. Thanks. -Kj cheetham (talk) 15:48, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There was a similar discussion recently, and the AFCH maintainers are more or less aware of the issue. There's a ticket for it and we hope to have it implemented... someday. In the meantime, I'd recommend using the Rater tool to clean up the banners whenever you accept a draft. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 16:14, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the info, and good to know it's on the radar. -Kj cheetham (talk) 16:43, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have not been a fan of the ilc decline rationale for a while now. It is only valid in extremely specific circumstances, and yet I it gets widely and inappropriately used. My issue is that this decline code should really only be used in addition to something else. Not enough references? Use v. Notability issues? Use one of the half-dozen notability options. ilc in and of itself should not be a reason to decline, just like formatting or layout issues should not be a decline.

I will use Draft:Jacques Daudin as an example. In Special:Permalink/1129578762 by Curbon7, this is a solid decline but v should have probably been used as well to indicate that more references were needed. Special:Permalink/1149411051 by Majash2020 has three unsourced sentences in the whole draft - not the most egregious of issues but again I think a v decline would have been better. Special:Permalink/1215354794 by Johannes Maximilian is just flat-out wrong, because every single sentence has a reference - you cannot add more inline citations other than adding more references, which again v should have been used if that were the case (or a notability decline if GNG is the issue). I was actually in the process of undoing that decline but the creator resubmitted before I could do so. As a site note, Special:Permalink/1215170278 by UtherSRG should have used a custom decline of "no change" or similar rather than using an invalid decline reason with a comment contradicting it.

So I guess my example above is my long-winded way of saying that we should just remove this reason entirely. On its own it is not a valid decline reason, and it is misused more than it is used as a supplement, and really if we want it as a supplement we should just tack on an extra sentence to v saying to make sure there are inline citations. However, I am not a monarch, so I would like to get feedback from you fine folks as how best we should proceed. Primefac (talk) 21:02, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. It is hard to remember my reasoning for declining that submission as ilc since it was over a year ago, but whatever it was it could have been accomplished better with a comment. Curbon7 (talk) 21:17, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm having déjà vu with this one... should have been removed a long time ago. KylieTastic (talk) 21:34, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here is the previous discussion last year for reference. S0091 (talk) 21:50, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]