Not only this this user consistently violating WP:MOSISLAM by replacing the word "Muhammad" with "Prophet Muhammad" like here: 1 he has also done other serious violations similar to what Jagged85 did

Please add comments below

Please add comments here--Misconceptions2 (talk) 16:05, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

TLDR Amortias (T)(C) 17:55, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

So you will ignore until a cleanup tag is needed to fix all the mess he created and created in the future like the Jagged 85 cleanup tag ?--Misconceptions2 (talk) 18:00, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

It would help if you removed the text following all the here links. It would make it easier to read and people can follow the links as nessecary. Amortias (T)(C) 18:12, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

I will say that although the OP appears to not have a good handle on how ANI works, and how to best formulate a complaint, it does appear that there may be many problematic edits involved here. I am somewhat surprised there isn't an active arb or DS in this topic area that can be applied (I checked, as far as I can see there isn't). Gaijin42 (talk) 18:14, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

• There is a warning template for "intentionally adding false information", and adding fake data is of course eminently blockable. I'll have a look. Thanks Gaijin. Drmies (talk) 19:54, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
• Well, this is not a clearcut case of "fake data"--at least not to me. I see problems with possible POV or unverified information, and an utter lack of edit summaries and talk page edits, but these are topics I have no experience with. I see that CambridgeBayWeather has "tidied up" some of their edits, and I wonder if they have anything to offer. Drmies (talk) 20:06, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Not much to add but I would point out that they have only made two edits since 25 February. This in March, which was later removed, and this in June, which still stands. In other words this seems to be fairly stale. Also unlesan edit is really obvious vandalism I wont make administrative edits because I edit a lot in this area. CBWeather, Talk, Seal meat for supper? 20:24, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

The fact that he is being disruptive is clear here . He removed references for data like "Muḥammad knew when this caravan had departed from Mecca and encamped there for about a month for this caravan to arrive at the ambush point. But the Meccan caravan had already passed some days before when the Muslims arrived" and "They expected to ambush that caravan there" and then added a "citation needed tag". Removing references and adding citation needed tag is clear disruptive editing--Misconceptions2 (talk) 20:53, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

This user has been harassing me in and off site over the Gamergate controversy article.
After discussion with users Masem, The Devil's Advocate, Diego and others, we were agreeing Intel pulling off ads of Gamasutra had to be mentioned [1]

For some reason only half of it was in the article at the time. That there was a thing called Operation Disrespectful Nod, a boycott of sorts to advertisers

I decided to include a phrasing by Masem with proper sourcing of the Intel matter, only to get reverted in no less than 10 seconds by Ryuolong [2] He stated "check the talk page to see why it isn't included", I did, there was nothing, I asked him on his talk page. He reverted my comments. [3]

To top it off, he HIMSELF decided to add the Intel mention some minutes later, this he disagreed with no less than 5 minutes before [4] He kept including a quote by a The Verge author when no agreement nor even a MENTION of it was discussed on the talk page, so I deleted this, only to be reverted seconds later [5] At this point I realized I was being part of an edit war so I quit. But this is the least of it

User Ryuolong has been constanly uncivil to new editors and people he calls "Gaters", he told me on social media to "learn to fucking read" https://twitter.com/Ryulong/status/516651395512950785
Since then I've seen his twitter account (since he mentioned me, I had no interest in looking up his name as he did with me), where he has called GamerGate supporters

"gamergate douche" https://twitter.com/Ryulong/status/515077120431628288
"gamergate fags" https://twitter.com/Ryulong/status/515077648251224066,
"toxic people" https://twitter.com/Ryulong/status/516529858176761856
"shitnuggets" https://twitter.com/Ryulong/status/517046919063814144
"priviliged white guys" https://twitter.com/Ryulong/status/516814925444825088
"fucking middle class straight white men" https://twitter.com/Ryulong/status/516811560560234496
He calls the Vivian James (the GamerGate "mascot" of sorts) drawing "nice shit avatar" https://twitter.com/Ryulong/status/516528138159792128
And countless other examples

On wikipedia he called me "wannabe Upton Sinclairs" [6]

He says "And your mouth is still writing a check your ass can't cash when it comes to the stuff you're spewing" here [7] to another user

In a quasi doxxing remark to user Torga, he says "when the shit hit the fan and there was a thread on reddit calling out for people with existing accounts on Wikipedia to get the GamerGate page skewed in their favor, you answered the clarion call". This user never linked to his reddit account After discussing with Torga over if it was doxxing or not, Ryulong tells him to "put up or shut up" in yet another example of his uncivil and rude behaviour [8]

When he's not insulting people he finds ways to swear for no reason, like here he tells me "don't pull this shit" [9] Or here [10] "Would you gaters stop kvetching about Leigh Alexander and how you think she's biased? Jesus fucking Christ" in an unproductive form of arguing

Also, as you can see above after I posted a screencap criticizing Wikipedia as a site, he looked up my twitter and reddit. He posted on ANI for this in an attempt to get me topic banned, yet knowing this was ONLY offsite behaviour, he tried to state I'm a SPA He then posted on the GamerGate talk page "so basically it's time we showed LoganMac the door" [11]

It's worth noting, this is a person who already got desysopped for "inappropriate off-wiki behavior" [12] and whose uncivil behaviour has been remarked by several other users

And as I've come to find out this user has a long history of abusive behaviour which begs the question how is he even allowed to keep his account [13]

He's been warned by several other users like Titanium Dragon [14] on his uncivil remarks, just one example user PseudoSomethinghere [15] states his rudeness.

"Should Ryulong be found to be seeking any user's real life identity, he may be banned from Wikipedia." [16] Loganmac (talk) 08:34, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Loganmac is one of several dormant accounts who have come to Wikipedia for the express purpose of pushing a point of view on Gamergate controversy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), an article that is an area of contention in the video game playing community. I have been terse with him and other editors of this type due to the constant disruption that the article has come under. In addition, my behavior on a completely separate website that has nothing to do with Wikipedia (rather than several IRC channels that are loosely affiliated with Wikipedia) has no bearing on what is happening here, because I was being harassed for several days by the pro-Gamergate crowd because of what I was doing here, and I unfortunately decided to respond to them. Also, I do not see how that "real life identity" thing is of any relevance here. And I did not look up your Twitter and reddit accounts. Someone on the talk page posted links to them after he found out you were purposefully misconstruing what he said him offsite, which is the whole subject of the thread higher up on the notice board. And I did not "dox" anyone. I used the global contributions tool built into the Mediawiki software to see what other accounts Torga possessed on other projects. I have no idea if he possesses an account on Reddit. I was making a blanket statement concerning the several disruptive single purpose accounts that sprang up. This is a frivolous request and a blatant attempt to have me silenced on a topic that Loganmac wants me eliminated from and it should be shut down.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 08:56, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Ryulong, you need to be careful here; this thread is about you, not Loganmac. Casting aspersions on other editors will look bad on you rather than help you. You need to answer for your actions here, and you've been less than distant and calm. Please read again WP:COOL and start following it to the letter for a while, it will help everybody involved. Diego (talk) 11:40, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Are you new here? The behavior of editors who file complaints at ANI can and will be scrutinized just as much as the person they're complaining about. Maybe a boomerang has come back and hit the person with unclean hands. Tarc (talk) 12:47, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

What I meant is that there's an open thread above for Loganmac above, and there's where Ryulong should place his comments on the other editor's behavior. At ANI, attacks are not a good defense, and neither is "...but, but, I've been provoked" a reason for misbehaving. Diego (talk) 13:32, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

P.S. And it certainly doesn't help that Ryulong is the one who filed the thread against Loganmac to begin with. If there are merits for a boomerang, it should be other editors who push for it, not the one being subject to the ANI. This goes for Loganmac too, of course. Diego (talk) 13:52, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

• Coping with the WP:SPA activists at the Gamergate articles is beyond human endurance—Ryulong and a handful of others are trying to maintain WP:BLP and WP:DUE and WP:RS but they have to repeat every argument ten times, and then repeat them another ten times when a new enthusiast arrives. Breaches of WP:CIVIL are regrettable, but they would not occur if the community were to topic ban several of the SPAs. Johnuniq (talk) 10:10, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Ryulong is one of several users who has come to the Gamergate controversy article for the express purpose of pushing a point of view on an article that is an area of contention in the video game playing community. He has referred to users who has disagreed with him as /v/irgins on more than one occaision, and has shown some major issues with ownership of the article. Even while the article is undergoing dispute resolution, Ryulong has steadfastly refused to allow any implication that the article might have neutrality problems, reverting attempts to tag the article despite ongoing dispute resolution over this issue - dispute resolution he has characterized as a farce and refused to participate in, claiming, despite my and others repeatedly pointing out that sites including Forbes, The Telegraph, Tech Crunch, and even Taiwanese paper Digitimes noting that the point of view he advocates for is not the only one on the issue. Given that there have been issues with harassment of people reporting on this, frequently by people using similarly derogatory language, up to and including harassment of Wikipedia editors on this issue (the Wikipediocracy doxxing incident), it is a bit of an issue. He claims that it is a "minority viewpoint", despite the fact that an enormous number of editors have come by noting the issues with WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE. He has some ownership issues over the article, and reacts aggressively and derisively to people who question the neutrality of the article.

He needs to participate in the DRN, which is the appropriate avenue for this discussion. Titanium Dragon (talk) 10:23, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Titanium Dragon was previously banned from the article due to the fact he could not keep within the bounds of WP:BLP. This is just him piling on due to a current content dispute with him on the page because of his insistence that the article lacks a neutral point of view or that it is giving undue weight to one side of the debate and not the other when this is not something that Wikipedia can correct due to our own policies and guidelines. I am not participating in the WP:DRN thread because it is simply an attempt at forum shopping by editors who are attempting to POV push. I am not exhibiting WP:OWN on the article. And this is just Titanium Dragon extending the content dispute into another venue. The fact that he rewrote what I initially wrote concerning Loganmac is really childish. His claim of me using "/v/irgin" is ridiculous; it's what the users of 4chan's /v/ board call themselves on their own, just like you have "/b/tards" or "/pol/acks" or "/fit/izens" for other boards. And for fucks sake, you are just repeating the same shit that was said to me constantly over the past week on Twitter when I was harassed time and time again by new gamergaters on this issue: I am not advocating any fucking point of view. Simply because I have noticed that the misogynist harassment is an aspect, as is described by multiple god damn sources on the article itself, means I am an SJW or whiteknight and do not think that the ethics concerns have any merit. That is what you are insinuating and that is a fucking bold faced lie. That is what everyone who went out of their way to find my god damn barely used Twitter account said to me. I should not have to deal with this garbage anywhere. Not on Twitter. Not on Wikipedia. If anything comes out of this discussion, it better be topic bans or site bans for the bulk of the single purpose accounts (either newly created or dormant accounts who have turned into single purpose accounts) who are insisting that Wikipedia is wrong despite the fact that so many other editors have pointed out that their insistence is incorrect but it has to be said every day because someone else comes along and makes a new thread on a topic which was discussed hours before.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 10:38, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Neither me nor Titanium Dragon have ever stated GamerGate has nothing to do with misogynism, my few edits on the article prove that on Wikipedia I'm neutral about it, yet Ryulong has stated several times against the journalism ethics aspect and generally diminishing its nature as just a harassment campaign orchestrated by evil sites like 4chan and reddit. Still what I'm really arguing about here is not his bias, he could be the most fervient anti-GamerGate editor, I don't care, if only he behaved in a civil manner and learned to disagree in a proper way Loganmac (talk) 11:17, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

I most certainly have not done anything of that sort. I acknowledge both sides of the debate, but one side can't be written about as easily as the other due to Wikipedia's policies.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 11:25, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

• If, as Loganmac has already said, "It's twitter, he can tell me whatever he wants, I really don't care" and "Remember that we're not accountable to what we do outside Wikipedia", why bring all that up? Woodroar (talk) 10:53, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

To show that he made the effort to find me on twitter and insult me, and to show his general uncivility to GamerGate supporters, both on and off site Loganmac (talk) 11:04, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

That is a load of shit and you know it. Bosstopher posted your Tweet and your Reddit comment here. I shouldn't have said anything to you on Twitter but I did, and you already dismissed it as Woodroar points out. And I was contacted offsite by multiple Gamergate supporters and harassed for days. You can see I spent hours on Twitter when I rarely ever use it because people kept messaging me about this shit and how I'm the big bad Wikipedia editor. At least the toku fandom on /m/ is more consistent and tolerable for why they hate me.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 11:25, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Don't you see a pattern here man, it's not an organized campaign to harass you, look it up, Twitter has archives, KotakuInAction has archives, IRC has logs, noone decided to "harass you", they're simply looking at your actions and having an opinion. And as you say, this is not the only "fandom" you've struck a nerve of. Also as a rule of thumb, you don't have to reply to anyone on twitter, SJWs insult me there too, I just laugh it off Loganmac (talk) 11:40, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

I shouldn't be fucking contacted on my personal Twitter account for my behavior on Wikipedia. And one group of nerds' opinion on translating Japanese into English is a different situation.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 11:45, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

There's a lot of off-site chatter about this topic area, do we really care? They talk about me too in a lot of places. Don't sweat the petty things. Tarc (talk) 12:52, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Looks like a force 10 in pottery. When did skins get so thin... Blackmane (talk) 13:22, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Experience in the past shows me that Ryulong does tend to get worked up on topics they have a strong interest in and become short on words and edging on edit warring - what is a common urge for most when dealing with the incoming SPA/IP accounts due to off-site canvassing to "fix" the apparent bais on the article. But that said, I have cautioned them that they are being perhaps too terse and rude, presuming accounts are SPA or the like without evidence, jumping at reverting edits that other editors have discussed on the talk page, and the like. There's no immediate ANI that I can see, but there definitely needs to be caution given that continuing that type of behavior can become disruptive if not checked. --MASEM (t) 14:40, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

The Devil's Advocate took part in canvassing on the Escapist forums here [17], be wary of (other) new editors --5.81.52.21 (talk) 14:43, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Loganmac are you serious ? Wikipedia can't do anything about something that happened off-wiki. We may as well close this up, since anything off-wiki is out of bounds in wiki. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 16:03, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Editor says stuff on twitter: film at 11. Protonk (talk) 18:17, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

There is considerable off-site chatter going on about making the Gamergate article more 'neutral,' and a lot of it centers around trash-talking contributors who are trying to keep the article free of outright policy violations and prevent it from being whitewashed by the scores of SPAs and POV pushers who are descending on it in response to that offsite canvasing. Ryulong is getting extra-special attention from the mob on twitter, for some reason, and I can't blame him for losing his patience. -- TaraInDC (talk) 20:05, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

In all fairness, there is an ongoing campaign of harassment against people who report on the subject matter, ranging from DDOSs, doxxing, to syringes being mailed to journalists reporting on GamerGate from the perspective of it being legitimate, so it is hardly surprising that people are concerned when people who come on Wikipedia and start calling users who are editing the article virgins and misogynists - the same sort of abusive language used in an attempt to silence people elsewhere. The fact that Ryulong has had action taken against him in the past as relates to threatening to (and actually) blocking users, back when he was a sysop (before he lost it as a result of his behavior), probably plays a role in the additional scrutiny directed towards him when he advocates for banning users he disagrees with. Titanium Dragon (talk) 21:25, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

For fucks sake, Titanium Dragon. I have not called one person a misogynist or a virgin in regards to anything that's happened. I've used "/v/irgin" (with the forward slashes) as that is what users of 4chan's /v/ call themselves. Anyone who goes to 4chan knows this and a good portion of the Gamergate social movement comes from 4chan. And the events of my arbitration case have no standing on whether or not I can tell if someone is being disruptive on an article. Stop using this against me because you should still be banned from the page and not unbanned on a stupid cop out technicality. The only people who have been accusing me of doing any sort of wrong in this situation and that I should be punished for it are you pro-Gamergate editors because I've been made out to be a scapegoat, as was evidenced from the constant harassment I'm dealing with through my Twitter account (someone messaged me within the past few hours with some garbage pro-GG link). I'm not going to stand for this garbage from you either.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:33, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Although there have been several editors who want to use the Talk:Neil deGrasse Tyson page as a soapbox, one in particular Moynihanian has been disruptive and wholly unproductive. See for instance, diff, or diff. Several editors there have tried to collapse his rants, see diff, for instance, or diff, only to be undone, see diff. I warned him on his talk page to stay on topic diff, which he simply deleted diff and add this to the Neil deGrasse Tyson talk page. These arent the only examples. If an uninvolved admin could take a look, that would be appreciated. Please note that the Tyson talk page is listed as being under discretionary sanctions. Thanks in advance. Bonewah (talk) 17:26, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Without knowing anything about this editor. Wikichecker shows exactly 2 of his 191 edits so far have been to article space. WP:NOTHERE comes to mind. Kingsindian ♝♚ 17:33, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

There's no point in editing Wikipedia's articles. You run a site that doesn't believe in facts; that is full of propaganda and advertising; that is dominated by roving bands of Wikilawyering, Wikicensoring flashmobs; that is actively hostile to expertise of any kind; and which is banned by academic institutions worldwide for its unreliability, lack of neutrality, inconsistency, and continual bias. I am familiar with plenty of Wikipedia articles with plainly incorrect information, and that violate your own rules, and that have gaping holes. But Wikipedia doesn't want help; it wants to repel help. The ONLY proper way to deal with Wikipedia is to make sure that the "editors" and "administrators" know that, each time they're caught in the act, people are going to notice. But even that would seem to be too much for the lot of you. Moynihanian (talk) 19:17, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

• NOTHERE is correctly invoked by Kingsindian. I read over various talk page discussions in The Human Stain, an article not devoid of wiki controversy, and the same sort of ranting occurs in Talk:The_Human_Stain/Archive_2. I hatted a thread/rant they started on the deGrasse Tyson talk page, and there's more material there that could/should be hatted. Though I note that this editor is not the only one with a soapbox, they're certainly the most...vocal one. Drmies (talk) 17:46, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

The user in this case has harassed me on my Talk page twice, in violation of Wikirules. Of course, because he's part of a Wikiclique, you won't enforce your own rules. It's no wonder that Wikipedia has a terrible reputation, and suffers from drastically declining participation among serious people, all while being flooded with advertising and propaganda. Have it your way, children. You know you will, anyway. Kick me out of your sandbox. Moynihanian (talk) 18:59, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

This is not harassment. No one is oppressing you. You are free to play elsewhere, in another sandbox. Drmies (talk) 19:41, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

I think my real sin is not attending Wikihigh's online pep rallies and student council meetings. Dang, no school spirit! In fact, he's even rooting for the other team! Moynihanian (talk) 19:55, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

• In related news, I removed a "remark" by Moynihanian from the deGrasse Tyson talk page, which was reverted by Andvphil, again removed, now by Black Kite, and reinstated again: you guessed it, "censorship". In addition, Black Kite is a vandal, and I am, I think, a "moral moron"--see User_talk:Andyvphil#Overweening_Admins. What is this world coming to? Tsk tsk. Drmies (talk) 20:35, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Ha ha! I'd say that when you delete an entire section as "off topic," while making your own comment in the deletion notice, therefore blocking out all comments but your own, that's about as clear as an example of Wikicensorship as it gets. Tell us, what made your comment so vital, while deeming all others "off topic?" I guess when you're part of a Wikiflashmob, you're entitled to inflated self-regard? Moynihanian (talk) 20:49, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
• I've blocked Moynihanian as WP:NOTHERE, Andvphil for 24 hours for disruptive edits/personal attacks that are ongoing, and I've closed TheFederalist.com AfD as keep. Can the drama level please go down now?--v/r - TP 21:07, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Brooklyn Eagle (talk · contribs · count) started a discussion at Talk:Thomas More a year ago after a series of reverts. I told them "It is not the job of editors to philosophize about St. Thomas More" in December. They took offense to that comment.

Since then, Brooklyn Eagle made several exceptionally long-winded arguments on Talk:Thomas More about some perceived bias in the article with a few other editors including Johnbod and Tlhslobus, to no effect. Since it was apparent to me Brooklyn Eagle was not here to build an encyclopedia I chose to ignore the situation. Brooklyn Eagle went to my talk page to incite my response. I made a good-faith effort to bury the hatchet saying "In conclusion, if you felt I claimed you were writing original research, consider that rescinded." I replied on Talk: Thomas More and explained I didn't want to be part of the discussion anymore. The issue more or less dropped in January 2014.

Last month, Brooklyn Eagle showed up at my talk page again raving about my issue with their original research efforts in the previous year. I made it abundantly clear I wanted them off my talk page as I'm not arguing it any longer. They persisted. At this point, I can only assume I'm being trolled. I had intended to take this issue to WP:RFCC but the process seems to require the other editors to get re-involved when this process works just as well. Chris Troutman (talk) 01:09, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Regardless of anything else, posting "you make people's blood boil" and "grow a pair" to Chris Troutman's Talk page can in no way be viewed as acceptable behavior. Still, considering BrooklynEagle only averages 2 edits per month, I don't really see how the maximum sanction realistically possible for a first transgression of this type (what, maybe a 24 or 48 hour block?), would accomplish much. I have posted a message to the user's Talk page asking he better police his behavior in the hope that voluntary intervention might yield positive results and alleviate the issues with which CT has to deal. DocumentError (talk) 01:25, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

As DocumentError has suggested, their infrequency of editing makes sanctions difficult to apply. I suggest just taking the high ground and reverting and ignoring them unless something more serious appears. At this point, it's just venting. Blackmane (talk) 05:40, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

But it seems, at least to my admittedly biased self, that the symbolic and possible educative value of officially telling him he has been wrong is potentially immensely important and useful for both him and the rest of us. The point is that quite likely he doesn't even realize that his behavior has been inappropriate (as I assume it has, and in more ways than just those explicitly mentioned here, though that could of course be unfair bias on my part). Tlhslobus (talk) 06:21, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

I think you bring up a valid and reasonable point that merits further discussion, Tlhslobus! DocumentError (talk) 06:28, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, DocumentError. There's also the point that if he persists in offending after that, it becomes a second offense (presumably making him eligible for heavier penalties), instead of remaining forever a first offense that is only punishable by first offense penalties. Tlhslobus (talk) 06:51, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Excellent point, Tlhslobus. On second consideration and based on the reasons you've outlined, I think I agree with your approach. DocumentError (talk) 06:53, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, DocumentError.Tlhslobus (talk) 07:04, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your kind validation of my suggestion, Blackmane! DocumentError (talk) 06:41, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

It's simple pragmatism, one can't do anything about someone who only stops off every now and then. However, a sufficient history of it and even a sporadic editor like Brooklyn Eagle can be dealt with through longer than normal blocks. Blackmane (talk) 13:10, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

• A block right now would be the least useful solution for an infrequent editor, a long block needs justification on its own merits--saying "we'll block six months since they rarely show up" is not yet valid, in my opinion. If the problem is personal attacks on Chris Troutman's talk page, that's fixable: I just left them a note telling them to stay away and a future offense can be met with a block--this thread should be warrant enough for a long block. In fact, an indefinite (not infinite!) block is a possible option since, in that case, they refuse to abide by clearly established behavioral guidelines, and we can easily say "you don't come back until you address this behavior".

  Problems on the article talk page can be handled with some diplomacy as well. Off-topic content can be hatted or removed, personal attacks can be deleted: we don't need ANI to enforce that since it's covered under the regular talk page guidelines, though if such action is necessary one can always link back to this discussion. Drmies (talk) 17:15, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

HiLo48 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), whose behaviour keeps coming up here...

...and whose block log speaks volumes, is at it again. After starting the thread Talk:Queensland rugby league team#POV editing by User:Gibson Flying V (which, by the way, results in the words POV editing by User:Gibson Flying V flashing up on an untold number of lists every time someone comments on it - some form of low-effort, high-yield personal attack?) where he failed to impress anyone, he started another thread at the neutral point of view noticeboard where he similarly failed to get support. Once that was archived he decided put his toes right up to the edge of the WP:3RR line at Queensland rugby league team (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) and when I called him on it his response was to start the thread Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Australian sports#POV pushing at Queensland rugby league team by calling me an "AFL hating editor". When I called him on the blatant WP:FORUMSHOPPING and raised the topic of his incivility he responded with more ad hominem remarks to which I responded by providing a link to Wikipedia:No personal attacks. Incredibly, HiLo48 then started two more similar threads both entitled "Anti-AFL POV pushing at Queensland rugby league team" at Talk:Australian Football League[18] and at its Wikiproject's talk page[19] where his remarks about me were repeated. An uninvolved editor, Macosal (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), echoed my warning about forum-shopping and posted a notice about inappropriate WP:CANVASSING on HiLo48's talk page. HiLo48's response in the face of this other user's continued civility was to abuse/attack them a few times before deleting their notice (and his abuse/attacks). HiLo48 then made this edit, which is as perfect an example of Wikipedia:Do not disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point as you'll ever find, basically admitting as much once I reverted it when he started another thread: Talk:Queensland rugby league team#POV wording again. Until this point I'd resolved to ignore HiLo48's personal attacks (whilst continuing the discussion) but here gave a clear warning that no more would be tolerated (with diffs and explanations of what is unacceptable), explaining that his next personal attack would result in this report. His response was 100% ad hominem and contained accusations of avoiding discussion, holding "obviously non-neutral" views and POV-pushing. So here we are. --Gibson Flying V (talk) 10:35, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

The summary of this recent diff nicely summarizes Hilo's attitude.--Ymblanter (talk) 10:49, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

I can't even be bothered reading all of that from Gibson Flying V. To make it easier for others to understand, this is a content dispute. It's all about an editor who wants to say that when two of his favourite players in his favourite sport, Rugby League, choose to play Rugby Union, that's fine, but when they choose to play Australian rules football, they are "poached". "Poached" is obviously a non-neutral word. In Australia, rugby league is pretty much in direct competition with Australian rules football for fans, so some antipathy can sometimes exist. I suggested alternatives and compromises, such as using "recruited" rather than "poached", but he won't agree. That is POV pushing, and stubbornness. I AM a person who won't give up fighting POV pushers. It's one of the biggest blights on Wikipedia. That's really all there is to this story. Now, I regard AN/I as a disaster area for justice. Editors who dislike an accused can say what they like about the accused, virtually never with any consequences, and little chance for the accused to defend himself against such nonsense. The raising of a long past block log is simply part of that, and irrelevant to the merits of this case. I won't take any further part in this discussion unless it becomes absolutely necessary. HiLo48 (talk) 11:02, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, breaking my promise already. In posting the above I had an edit conflict with ymblanter. What a surprise that he turned up! He is a perfect example of the problems with ANI that I mentioned above. He is a Putin hating POV pusher who brought me here some time ago because I was getting in the way of his POV pushing. He lost. I embarrassed him, and he has been after me ever since. (Do we actually ever do anything about badly behaved Admins?) His is not a good faith post. HiLo48 (talk) 11:09, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Um. Wow.--Gibson Flying V (talk) 11:11, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

If you're trying to prove long-term behaviour, try WP:RFC/U the panda ₯’ 11:29, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Nope, it's pretty much about the past week alone. There's just a lot! Sorry if it seems verbose, I've never done this before.--Gibson Flying V (talk) 11:37, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

You're providing links to archives from ages ago to try and prove currency? RFC/U. Your WP:BATTLE mentality is returning if you think otherwise the panda ₯’ 11:45, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Not to provide currency at all. But to provide context. I suspected repeat offending might mean something in cases of personal attacks.--Gibson Flying V (talk) 11:49, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Wrong. You're throwing a bunch of shit against a wall, hoping something will stick. I reviewed 3 of the links you claimed contained personal attacks and ad hominem, but found nothing of the sort. False claims of personal attacks can lead to flying sticks the panda ₯’ 11:53, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

There is no rule that is objective and not open to interpretation on what constitutes a personal attack as opposed to constructive discussion...Insulting or disparaging an editor is a personal attack regardless of the manner in which it is done. Which three?.--Gibson Flying V (talk) 11:59, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

• This is from 2011, apparently no action; this is from 2012, plaintiff warned and then blocked; this is from 2012, HiLo gets an ITN block; this is from 2013, "nothing actionable"; this is from 2013, with HiLo unblocked and the plaintiff topic-banned. So at best there's one with serious consequences for HiLo, but they are hardly from this past week. Drmies (talk) 14:03, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Well, Hilo48 just does not know how to behave. He is one of the users who make Wikipedia a horrible place to work, and he is doing this consistently for many years. In particular, this year he is stalking me, with the initial claim that my English is so bad he can not comprehend me, than that I am a hater of Russia, and now that I am a hater of Putin, and next time he will invent smth else which is going to have as little ground as these claims. I am convinced he is a net negative for Wikipedia, and since he shows no sign of understanding his problem - which is that he consistently assumes bad faith of the others and refuses to see any problems with his own behaviour - I believe the only long-term solution is to have him indefinitely blocked. How many people can he demotivate by his "fuck offs" and "I decide here" before he finally gets indeffed, remains to be seen.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:16, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Oh, and now he accuses me in POV pushing. He is probably sick. What he is saying about me is blatant lie.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:34, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

In case anyone missed it... the middle sentence by Ymblanter is indeed a personal attack. Check the cleanliness of thine own hands before launching mud the panda ₯’ 13:23, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

• Hmmm...I'm not that convinced that it is a personal attack, though it may well be an exaggeration. Sorry to disagree with you. Drmies (talk) 14:05, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

A very nice tactics: To completel ignore what is in the thread, but to stat with a boldface against someone who has not been taken to ANI. If Hilo still believes I am a POV-pushe, he should not continue throwing mud but start action against me for POV-pushing. Nobody managed so far to prove I am a POV pusher. If he believes my behavior is not acceptable, he should start a ANI thread. I do not see why he is allowed to lie all aound, and I have to shut up and listen to his lie. I tried once, which led him to believe that I accept all bullshit he has against me. And please DangerousPanda, when he called me a "fool" and I have taken it to ANI into a thread you were in, why did not you react then?--Ymblanter (talk) 13:44, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Where did I suggest that I had ignored anything in this thread? I advised that I reviewed 3 of the links provided as evidence, and found all 3 of them did not show any such NPA's. Now, returning to your own dirty hands, is there a valid reason why you're referring to me using an old, intentionally retired username? I usually find myself on your side, Ymblanter, but this bullshit tactic of your own is entirely unacceptable the panda ₯’ 15:33, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

I apologize, I was under impression that in the thread #6 cited above you used that username. Now I checked, and you used another one. I amended my comment above.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:50, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Good, if anyone opens an RFC/U against Hilo48 I will certify it.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:43, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

I have to say that I would too. Last week I did nothing outside of Wikipedia's suggested behaviours in regards to a textbook case of canvassing by HiLo, only to be told three times in quick succession to "Fuck off" (with varying levels of capital letters and exclamation marks) and have my motives reduced to some kind of personal grudge rather than responded to reasonably at face value. (here). I do not regard this as acceptable behaviour on Wikipedia (especially given that this was in response to a clear cut case of canvassing which HiLo seemed reluctant to accept) and this attitude genuinely did effect me as condescending, dismissive and frustrating as well as a personal attack. Over a longer term I have witnessed numerous discussions in which I personally felt that HiLo unnecessarily introduced conflict or escalated what were previously relatively civil discussions (the latter half of this discussion comes to mind).

He also seemed not overly concerned regarding any breach of Wikipedia guidelines, saying re my suggestion of canvassing "He didn't give a rats what I thought" (not in itself very civil) and rejecting numerous requests and reminders to remain civil and avoid personal attacks. Macosal (talk) 13:59, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

• HiLo is not a net negative. I wish he had better manners, of course--there's a hell of a lot of fuck offs there but, as we have established often enough, "fuck off" on one's own talk page (including edit summaries) is allowed. It's not great, it's not indicative of collaborative spirit, but it's allowed, though a plethora of it does not reflect very well on the editor. And I say this having known HiLo for quite some time, and in at least one of the linked threads above to ANI archives I have criticized him for his comments. But overall I deny that he is a net negative. Yes, RfC must be the way to go if much of the reporting on this recent incident, or string of incidents, goes back to 2011--that can establish a pattern, but not the severity of an incident. Drmies (talk) 14:10, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

This seems like a content dispute disguised as a personal attacks claim. And if the OP really did say "poached", he ought not be editing the article. Eggs and wild game are "poached". Athletes are recruited, and if the offer looks superior to what they currently have, they might switch teams. The fans might be unhappy about it, but a professional will do what he thinks is in his own best interests. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:49, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

I can see what you mean, but at the same time, it seems to me that there genuinely are strong cases for HiLo having breached WP:CANVASS, WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA and WP:POINT on multiple occasions all in a short space of time (see above examples), and showing little to no willingness to acknowledge or discuss this when brought to his attention (and even continuing in some of the behaviours). I understand that he felt frustrated by this discussion but that doesn't seem to justify the range and quantity of breaches. Macosal (talk) 15:01, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Accumulated frustration from such never-ending battles is why I don't edit articles much anymore. Maybe HiLo should consider vacationing from article editing also. That could mean the fanboys will win, at least this time. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:09, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Article-editing is what gives the project's usual gang of bad behavior actors cover for their actions, though. Quite a Catch-22 we're setting up here; either be a content creator and deal with massive egos & thick skin vs. being accused of "not here to build an encyclopedia", which is what they toss at the likes of you and me. Tarc (talk) 15:24, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

This is a false dichotomy, which unfortunately becomes more and more popular. I am a content creator as well, and I have more overall edits than Hilo has, and three times as many edits in the article space as he has made in the article space.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:29, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

If you're not here to create content, what's the point? Are these non-content creators self-appointed Wikipedia police? Are they judging those of us who create content? HiLo's got a record of ongoing whinging but doing nothing. I could bring up a dozen diffs in the last month, but nothing that quite compares to all the "fuck you"s I've seen on other pages he's edited. I was "surprised" that he tried to obfuscate his bad behaviour by calling it "a content dispute", clearly the original complaint relates to a serious of personal attacks. Having said that, and in agreement with HiLo himself, this venue is highly selective over what constitutes a personal attack. Given that many editors are given a free pass to tell others to "fuck off", the precedent has been set and this is a non-discussion. Non-creation pseudo-Wiki-police rule! The Rambling Man (talk) 15:43, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

I have difficulties understanding how you conclude that I am not here to create content from the fact that I have 40K edits in the article space.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:59, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Maybe the indentation works better now. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:01, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) Again, with every one of these threads, the issue should not be "should or shouldn't a person behave this way" (the discussion never goes that way anyways), but rather "Do you honestly expect any outcome from this discussion." @Ymblanter: if you do have three times the article edits of HiLo48, you must surely have been at Wikipedia long enough to recognize the futility of these discussions. Without regard for what should happen, we need to start recognizing what will happen, and just stop having these discussions altogether. If article editing is your desire, go do that; stop dropping by ANI stirring up drama against people. Whether or not HiLo deserves to be "sanctioned" for his "behavior", you should recognize he (and really many other people: it's not unique to this one) is not going to be, and stop yourselves from starting these threads in the first place. You already should know how this is going to turn out, stop trying to believe it would turn out differently, shut down the thread, and go on with your lives. --Jayron32 15:45, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

  I did not start this thread. I only started one thread against Hilo in my life, in January 2014, and I got so much shit thrown on me in that thread (which is linked above) and later that I had to unwatch the article I was editing and I was really feeling badly for weeks. This is not really an experience I would wish anybody.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:55, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

• HiLo's behavior on the Chelsea Clinton talk page and a related discussion at BLPN is less than ideal as well. His refusal to listen there is considered a form of disruptive editing per WP:LISTEN. I apologize for not linking to individual comments but you really need to review the whole discussion to get the gist of it. -- Calidum 15:47, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Someone there labeled him a "troll", which is usually considered a personal attack. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:55, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
    • That's true but it doesn't mean we should ignore several days of disruptivs editing by Hilo that took place before the comment was made. -- Calidum 16:01, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
      • [I screwed up an edit-conflict, second try] I was the second editor who called him such. (The first hid it under a pipe to WP:DFTT.) When HiLo48 says he's there for the "fun", and has completely given up any pretense of trying to work for consensus, and responds to serious arguments with a brief phrase and runs on to something else, then insults everyone for not noticing his "refutations", he's being uselessly, time-wastingly, disruptive. Choor monster (talk) 16:18, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, as Baseball_Bugs pointed out, it's hard to weigh-in on one side or the other of a WP:CIVIL discussion when the word "troll" is being thrown around by the accusing side; it's a charged word designed to provoke a reaction. Our editors are, in fact, human and react as such. And, I suspect, HiLo is human as well. Sounds like we all just need to move on. DocumentError (talk) 21:53, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

• Make the personal attacks irrelevant. Let's consider Jayron's point above. So, let's give up trying to restrict HiLo48. A better way is for everyone who considers HiLo48's behavior to be less than ideal to not be provoked when he goes over the mark. Instead, let's all be extra nice to HiLo, and respond to any provocations by staying cool without giving a flinch. Then if there is canvassing and he does not repond constructively to queries about that, take that up with the other involved editors. If HiLo has an outburts of anger, then consider that to be mostly a problem for himself (it's not good for his health). Count Iblis (talk) 17:17, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

  Yes, let's all allow HiLo48 to tell other editors to "fuck off" etc, he's clearly very proud of it as it continues to do so, like a "big boy", because clearly HiLo48 needs us to do that for his "health". You're right. We should forget what others say to him and allow him to outburst however best suits him, regardless of the collateral damage. After all, I regularly tell my colleagues to "fuck off" at work, despite their or my social and mental disabilities. Not. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:58, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

  He is not your colleague. Here on Wikipedia you don't have a boss who has assigned HiLo as your co-worker with whom you have to share your office. If HiLo doesn't communicate well, you are free to ignore him and continue to collaborate more with other people. If HiLo behaves like a 5 year old throwing tantrums when he doesn't get his way, nothing stops you from actually treating like a 5 year old child. Give him a candy and move on. Count Iblis (talk) 18:29, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

  Yep, you don't understand that we're working collaboratively here. If someone suddenly tells someone else to "fuck off", that's highly inappropriate. Now, as I've mentioned above, many editors here are able to do that with exemption, as they massively increase the encyclopaedic contents of Wikipedia. I'm not sure the same is true here, by any means. But yes, if I could, I'd "give him a candy". Problem is, he just keeps coming back for more and keeps the swear festival going. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:32, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

  Saying these discussions are not productive is not the same thing as saying that we should condone telling people to "fuck off" or anything else. The issue is so much not "should people be allowed to tell others to fuck off" and so much more "have we ever seen a discussion where we get mad at someone telling someone to fuck off result in anything useful being done." I don't want HiLo to tell people to fuck off, but I also don't see how discussions like this stop him from doing so. It's pointless. Being opposed to these sorts of exercises in futility is not the same as being in support of treating people badly. --Jayron32 19:48, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

• And meanwhile, he's seriously wasting everyone's time on the CC discussions with hit-and-run and liar-liar and general sniping. Really, consensus has been reached, a dozen or two other articles doing the exact same thing without a peep of complaint for years have been identified, policy is absolutely clear, and it's being dragged on with the spectre of a completely pointless edit-war hovering in the background until someone drops a hammer, stick, or whatever. Totally disruptive, totally worthless. Choor monster (talk) 18:06, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

• I recommend that, when you want your claims to be taken seriously, claiming that "consensus has been reached" on an article that clearly still has numerous good faith editors debating an issue is not the best strategy.--Yaksar (let's chat) 20:32, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

• WP:CONSENSUS has been reached. You are thinking of unanimity. The responses of the naysayers are lacking any coherence, relevance, and they dodge and weave everywhere. They are not "debating" the issue. They are not applying anything based on policy. I see no effort made at good faith in their contributions to the discussions. Choor monster (talk) 22:48, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

• How is his behavior not disruptive? Of course it is, just look at this thread and the insanely long thread on BLP/N. He is wasting editors' time on stuff we shouldn't. I find it incomprehensible that some here are advocating for others to develop thick skins, instead of telling this editor to stop the bloody nonsense. - Cwobeel (talk) 20:41, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
• I recall being treated very badly by HiLo48 - to the point I want no contact with him and dropped off Wikipedia for a while. Just happened to spot this while looking for something else. Legacypac (talk) 21:29, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
• HiLo48 has always seemed like a proactive, civil editor each time I've observed his interactions (we haven't actively edited together but I've watched several pages he's active on). After reading the diffs provided it seems like this is just a content dispute that maybe doesn't belong at ANI. Unless I missed something, I don't see anything remarkable in any of HiLo48's comments or edits. Please remember, ANI is the place to bring major incidents, not to kneecap one's editorial "opponents." DocumentError (talk) 21:48, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

• Regardless of any civility issues with HiLo48, he is completely justified in objecting to the use of the word "poaching" in reference to recruiting people from one sporting code to another. A neutral term is available, but Gibson Flying V reverts any edits. In all of the many discussions on the term, Gibson Flying V is more or less in a minority of one. It's got to the point where a topic ban comes into consideration. MaxBrowne (talk) 16:20, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
  • By saying, "Regardless of any civility issues with HiLo48..." you admit that nothing coming after that belongs in this thread. The great thing about having provided links to those discussions you mention is that I save myself the trouble and embarrassment of attempting to sway other editors by describing their outcomes here. --Gibson Flying V (talk) 23:31, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
    • Did you actually argue for using the term "poached"? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:38, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Admission that content contribution excuses incivility[edit]

This is one of those unwritten rules of Wikipedia that we're all familiar with, but I do not recall it ever being stated so plainly. Here we have an editor accused of a pattern of rudeness, culminating in a recent "fuck off" retort. "If only he wrote more Featured Articles or contributed to more Good Articles, and so on, then he could be rude "with exemption" due to his "massive" contributions. Am I the only one that sees a "rules are for thee but not for me" dichotomy here? Tarc (talk) 21:51, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

GREAT point, Tarc. It sounds like we all need to just move-on. I don't think this ANI is really accomplishing anything except to derail valuable edit time. DocumentError (talk) 21:57, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

"This is one of those unwritten rules of Wikipedia that we're all familiar" There are a lot of a legitimate "unwritten" rules I suppose, but this isn't one of them. This is simply a perception that has been propagated. But anyone, regardless of content creation, is subject to civility guidelines and crossing the line enough times or showing a pattern is likely to garner sanctions. How long those stick depends on the community. There is a general, rough consensus that prolific content creators should not just be automatically blocked unless the offense is quite severe. Discussion, however is generally closed quickly. Most of the time the discussions are more heated then enlightening and people tend to be more passionate about a sanction being imposed by the anger that is natural from being the one on the receiving end of incivility, but such reaction is why most discussions about civility enforcement go wrong. That...and a good portion of the time the issue is not as much civility but not approving of cuss words on the editor's own talk page.--Mark Miller (talk) 22:28, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

"...but this isn't one of them". Sorry, but that's either hopeless naiveté or willful avoidance. Tarc (talk) 00:41, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Over a supposed "unwritten" rule? Well....I'm not just smiling over the above...I'm giggling just a bit.;-)--Mark Miller (talk) 00:46, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Mark Miller: There is a general rough, consensus that prolific content contributors should not just be automatically blocked unless the offense is quite severe. Discussion, however is generally closed quickly.

Can you please clarify what this means and who you' re speaking for? Lightbreather (talk) 01:50, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

I am not speaking of or "for" anyone in particular. But the general consensus over a broad range of discussions on AN, ANI, WP:WER and many other locations indicates a general, rough consensus that editors with a high content count should not be blocked automatically in regards to civility complaints without community discussion, unless these are very obvious and egregious violations. The reason is that civility can be ambiguous. Of course...I could be wrong. I am not "Super Wikiman". ;-) However, I have spent a good deal of time reading through a good deal of these discussion from the past two or three years.--Mark Miller (talk) 02:09, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

By the way, this "admission" is not endorsed by me, it's a plain statement of fact, I have observed it many times here. Stating it doesn't mean I agree with it. The Rambling Man (talk) 05:48, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Nope. It's a plain statement of opinion. If you feel it is fact I would need a demonstration of this. This will most likely be added to the current arb Com case as evidence. Sorry....but you have absolutely no right to claim this as fact without proof. --Mark Miller (talk) 01:59, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm fully aware that this might be interpreted as circular reasoning, but if HiLo's behavior is not an issue for other editors, why in God's name does he keep popping up on ANI on a monthly basis for incivility issues? Someone file an RFC and get this over with.--WaltCip (talk) 15:52, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm going to answer that one. I get in the way of POV pushers, perhaps more than most other editors on Wikipedia. I do it firmly. The POV pushers hate it. They will try anything to get rid of me. This is certainly the case this time. Sometimes my firmness has been more successful than I dreamed, when the event of them bringing me here has led to them being blocked. BTW, these POV pushers have included Admins on more than one occasion. Of course, they never get blocked. HiLo48 (talk) 23:17, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Graemekahn (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This editor is adding references to a blog despite warnings to stop. [26] Judging from this link added here the blog posts are copy-pastes from other sources including Wikipedia articles. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:50, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Sorry this is my first time using Wikipedia and was trying to find missing citations for a computer lesson. Sorry my teacher has told me wrong instructions how to do. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Graemekahn (talk • contribs) 15:56, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Interesting set of articles you or your teacher has chosen. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 16:00, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

• I don't see any attempts to engage User:Graemekahn on his talk page, just a set of templated warnings followed by a report to ANI. Is that really the best you can offer by way of helping a new user who is making mistakes and doesn't know his way around? (That question is directed at User:NeilN, who raised this report, and at those who templated Graemekahn's talk page). Neatsfoot (talk) 16:03, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

  No, strike that, with my apologies - after an (edit conflict), I see that this guy has been adding links to sex-related sites, so the school teacher thing doesn't wash. Neatsfoot (talk) 16:06, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

  • I also replied to his edit requests. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 16:08, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

There is a discussion, Should a "High content contributor" subsection be added to "When blocking may not be used", at WT:BP for Wikipedians interested in the WP blocking policy. 18:37, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

• For those who like participating in this kind of thing, the thread exists, but note that I've removed the RFC tag. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:20, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

I created a serious RfC [27] and the tag was quickly and unilaterally removed.[28] I would like it restored, as well as the notices that I posted to publicize it. Thank you. Lightbreather (talk) 19:36, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

• According to Floquenbeam, "I don't care if this thread is left here to fester or not, but I've removed this from the list of RFC's. You are not going to hassle people who sign up for the WP:FRS with a pointy bad-faith RFC. Volunteers who are actually willing to help solve actual disagreements deserve better". Seems fair to me. Sorry Lightbreather. Drmies (talk) 19:45, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

It's a dead serious RfC, and there is no rule that says one must respond to every RfC they are notified about, is there? I used the rfc|policy tag - not rfc|bio or rfc|reli or some other, inappropriate rfc tag - for people who are interested in commenting on policy-related requests. I am asking a second time for the tag to be restored, so that we may discuss this policy on the policy talk page... Or would others prefer that it get discussed here at ANI again for the umpteenth time. It is a policy that comes up regularly, and it needs to be discussed. Thank you. Lightbreather (talk) 20:00, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Why is this issue constantly swept under the rug? So much drama could be avoided if we simply made a decision on this issue and stuck to it. Chillum 20:08, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Because the result is what we have no. We evaluate it on a case by case basis. We do not need hard and fast generalized and sweeping rules that lock us into uninformed, unintelligent, and irrational decision making.--v/r - TP 20:15, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Have you looked at the proposal? What is generalized about it? (If the RfC isn't restored there soon, I will copy the proposal here - since it looks like it's going to get discussed here again.) Lightbreather (talk) 20:21, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

The proposal isn't generalized. The rule that you are trying to get written in stone is.--v/r - TP 20:25, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

I hadn't thought of it this way before, but maybe this is a case where the admins are using undue influence to effect a policy that they like to interpret a certain way. (For whatever reason, which I'd rather not have the discussion devolve into.) The fact remains, the community at large should vote on this. If the community says, "Yes, high-content creators should be blocked by different standards," then put it in writing and quit letting the admins decide (via some unwritten rule) that's the standard for this "special" population of editors. Lightbreather (talk) 20:17, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

That's a pretty big change. Besides, it's going to amount to some serious opposition, given that there are dozens of high-content contributors who are liable to get blocked a lot. – Epicgenius (talk) 20:30, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

I surely think discussing it on that page makes more sense. For instance, what do you mean by "That's a pretty big change"? If it's already an unwritten rule, it's no change at all. We only need to put down in writing what is currently unwritten. There are a lot of smart people on Wikipedia, who have handled all kinds of real-life workplace policies. THIS CAN BE DONE. Lightbreather (talk) 20:40, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

In my opinion, the RfC might have been viable with the question: "Should the extent of a user's contributions be a factor in decisions regarding possible blocks of that user?", or something to that effect. Your wording was pointy because it didn't stand a snowball's chance of passing and you knew that. ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 20:36, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

I am restoring the RfC so that the discussion may continue there, instead of clogging up ANI. Lightbreather (talk) 21:00, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

• There is no consensus in this thread (which I was not notified of, by the way) for reverting the RFC closure; indeed, while it's probably too early to call it, I'd say the "preliminary" consensus is pretty clearly to leave it as a normal thread, not an RFC. It is unethical to come to ANI to request something, and then when people disagree, you do it yourself anyway. "Clogging up ANI" doesn't matter; nothing productive happens here anyway. But treating WP:FRS volunteers like pawns in your civility war game does matter, and makes your claim to care about how we treat other editors ring pretty hollow. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:30, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
• Right. And Lightbreather, first of all this is not good tactics, and second, you keep saying "discussion", and for a discussion you don't need an RfC tag. Why ANI? Why not the Village Pump or something like that? Copying the proposal here would be seriously disruptive: this board is already dysfuntional enough. And nothing is being swept under the rug here: it's pretty clear that the very terms used in the RfC are arbitrary and undefinable, and it will close as...let me check the winds...there are winds...leaves are rustling...water still flows downward...yes, no consensus it is, at best.

  Besides, I'm about to offer my own RfC: that admins with low content contributions need to hand in their bit. Discuss. Drmies (talk) 21:36, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

  • Adminz 4 life! ‑Scottywong| chat _ 22:58, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

The Rfc-in-question, should be allowed to run its course. Assuming there'll be no consensus for what the Rfc is proposing, what harm could it do? GoodDay (talk) 23:02, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

It ran for about 3 hours, and got 7 opposes and one support (and the one support was by the same user that started the proposal). Anyone who has been here for a significant period of time can easily predict the result of such a discussion. ‑Scottywong| chatter _ 23:05, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

I know. GoodDay (talk) 23:09, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

YAPECCT[edit]

Yet another pointless Eric Corbett Civility Thread

This is convenient. When I saw the pointy Rfc thread -- and the link to the totally improper close of the recent ANI Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive855#Personal_attacks_and_incivility_by_Eric_Corbett, I was tempted comment somewhere, but didn't want to start a thread here, and the blocking policy talk isn't as widely watched as other places, and Eric's been Jimbo banned (last I knew) from the Founder's talk page, so it would be rude to post there.

Eric and I have been onwiki about the same amount of time. We disagree over what proper conduct is. From my perspective, we get along fine -- I mostly ignore him and he mostly ignores me. If Eric were violating the Wikipedia civility policy, I'd be more than willing to rat him out. Unfortunately, we don't have a policy, we have pillar-meme which some of us use to guide our own behavior, many of use to address the obvious trolls and vandals. But a policy? No. A policy is something we mostly agree on and act accordingly. As Arbcom 2012 stated:

Throughout the project, breaches of the expected level of decorum are common. These violations of the community's standards of conduct are unevenly, and often ineffectively, enforced. (1,2)
— English Wikipedia Arbitration Committee

Subsequent to that Beeblebrox attempted the Sisyphian task of actually having a policy Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Civility enforcement, but it ground to a halt... (See also my three year old essay User:NE Ent/Notes on civility).

Anyway, people (e.g. Black Kite in the prior close) keep bringing up arbcom. Arbcom's (at least past editions, not sure about Arbcom 2014, but I suspect they'll have the same opinion) have made it clear they are unlikely to take a case unless dispute resolution procedures have been followed. Specifically Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Eric Corbett remains a redlink. So if you think corrective action is required "screw your courage to the sticking point" and write the RFCU (warning: be prepared for a whole slew of Ad hominem attack, best ignored per Other duck). But please do not file ANIs, RFCs, ACs, LMNOPs .... NE Ent 22:32, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

For the record, I don't have a problem with Black Kite's closing of that thread, and I appreciate him mentioning me as one of the editors in his closing of that thread. I provided the links that I provided to give context to the matter. By that, I mean that I often don't like it when we are speaking of something and yet don't name what we are speaking of, but I also don't think that Lightbreather was focusing on one editor. She has been on a mission to make Wikipedia more civil for some time now, as currently shown at the WP:No personal attacks talk page, where I have consistently disagreed with her on her proposals. Like I've told her, I'm used to incivility on Wikipedia and have developed a thick skin regarding it, though I can fall for the WP:Bait at times. Sometimes, I am less than civil on Wikipedia, but I will be trying harder to make sure that doesn't happen. Though I often disagree with Lightbreather, I admire her attempts to make Wikipedia more friendly. Flyer22 (talk) 23:17, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

I probably wasn't clear -- closing the ANI thread was good, suggesting arbcom as a next step was not. NE Ent 23:26, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

You're perfectly OK with invoking ArbCom when it suits your purposes. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:36, 3 October 2014 (UTC)