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A tag has been placed on Category:Affordable housing advocacy organizations in the United States indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and removing the speedy deletion tag. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:03, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, TheTranarchist,

I understand that you just created this category. But the policy is to tag empty categories. There is a week-long period where it sits in an Empty Categories category. If it is still empty in 7 days, then it is deleted. If it no longer is empty, which happens a lot, then the tag is removed. So, no reason to panic, in the case of CSD C1, "speedy" isn't an appropriate adjective. Thank you. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:06, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've fixed it, Liz. Silverseren^C 01:13, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Liz, thanks for notifying and explaining it to me and thanks @Silverseren for helping populate it! I was planning to create the subcategories by country/city then move everything in one sitting but the day got away from me lol, sorry for leaving it up empty so long. I'm about to sit down to finish the job and won't leave any categories empty less than the minute to populate it using hotcat! TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 02:22, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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Hello @TheTranarchist, please stop creating new categories in article space. Your recent creations such as High-importance Housing and Tenant Rights in New York articles, Low-importance Housing and Tenant Rights in New York articles, Mid-importance Housing and Tenant Rights in New York articles, NA-importance Housing and Tenant Rights in New York articles & Unknown-importance Housing and Tenant Rights in New York articles show that you were trying to create categories but you mistakenly created them in article space (without 'Category:' in the beginning). I'm nominating these pages for WP:CSD #G6. Please be careful with Namespaces in the future. Thanks. ❯❯❯ Raydann^(Talk) 22:04, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Raydann - sorry about that, I've been doing a lot of work with categories recently but am new to it. I made a list of the categories I needed to create and quickly went through it before realizing I'd left out the "Category:" prefix in the links. Requested they be moved to the proper namespace just before you left this. Regardless, won't happen again. Best, TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 22:09, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for fixing the categories! Sorry again about that, my most embarrassing wiki-blunder so far lol TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 22:15, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@TheTranarchist Totally understandable. I have now moved them to the Category namespace. Apologies for undoing your changes @Schminnte, I was on my way to fix the same. ❯❯❯ Raydann^(Talk) 22:17, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Understandable, thanks for alerting me. Schminnte (talk • contribs) 22:19, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The article Guardians of Divinity has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

Doesn't meet WP:ORG, no sources that cover this group in depth as required by WP:SIRS

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Denaar (talk) 01:59, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• I put this alert on the page before seeing your page... if you have topic ban, and you object, I'll remove the prod for you and go to AfD instead, it isn't fair to you otherwise. Denaar (talk) 01:59, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  @Denaar Thanks for notifying me! I am unfortunately indeed topic banned: at ~80% confidence I'm guessing that means I can't say whether or not I'd appreciate you taking it to AfD and/or object to deletion, so I'm going to hold my opinions on those unless an admin gives me a go-ahead to say them. If none do, I'm afraid I have no answer for you and it'll be up to you, since I don't want to get dragged to ANI or AN again - I've only recently started recovering from my past times there. Best, TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 03:54, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  The talk page lists wikiproject LGBT studies so I think not interacting with it at all is a good call on your end. I'm glad to see you give such a careful answer. --Licks-rocks (talk) 10:00, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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Hi again! While researching for the creation of Draft:1918-1920 New York City rent strikes I came across a kind of interesting slideshow of tenant history that I thought you might find a useful reference so I'm sharing it here. Tenant Movement History Timeline Slides - English.pdf

Of particular interest covered in it I think is the Draft:United Workers Cooperative Colony which was a socialist non-segregated cooperative housing project that was started by garment workers in the Bronx in 1925 with around 2,000 residents living there. There seems to be an entire PBS documentary on it surprisingly. Anyways hope its helpful! -- LoomCreek (talk) 07:13, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @LoomCreek, thanks for sharing it! Sorry for the late reply it's been a crazy week/weekend lol - had a short-term contract I'd been focusing on. Thought that link looked familiar and double checked the origin, I'd linked it on the resources section of NYHOUSING along with some shorter overviews and a cool interactive timeline project covering the same (they're under "Right to Counsel NYC"). Currently writing an article on Spanish Wikipedia, but when I'm finished with that I've been planning to finish collecting the sources for / write 1934 Harlem Rent Strike - if Draft:United Workers Cooperative Colony still needs work when I'm done with that I'll try and expand the article since that's really cool! Best, TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 16:47, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's no worries! I get that it can be very busy at times. The pdf is actually something I added recently under it after I recognized it was the same slides as the interactive timelines. Thank you for finding the previous sources they are very useful! The secondary sources you found for the rent strikes have been invaluable. Also agreed the cooperative housing is very cool, at the moment its just a place to gather sources. I suspect It'll probably still be unfinished when your done with the 1934 Harlem Rent strike. As the post-WW1 NYC rent strikes are bit of a beast to fully cover and because of that it'll probably be at least a couple weeks till I'm fully done with it given my other responsibilities. -- LoomCreek (talk) 23:11, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As an update, turns out the United Workers Cooperatives already existed! I just somehow missed it. Because of that I've just expanded some of it's history section. LoomCreek (talk) 12:54, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'd seen it while doing category and not realized it was the same lol. Glad you found it and thanks for expanding it! Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 17:54, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

np! - LoomCreek (talk) 18:41, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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Hi again! Its been some months since we contacted for the last time, but I surely hope that you are well! Also, I am not sure about the status of your topic ban from the GENSEX area; are you still under its sanctions, or its been lifted by now? In any case – stay strong, and stay away from any Wiki troubles! — Sundostund mppria ^{(talk / contribs)} 18:22, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Sundostund, thank you! I'm doing fairly well, sorry for the late reply I spent the last two days digitizing documents at the NYPL for commons with my friend and my gf and going out with them after, it's been lovely! Incredibly happy my suspicion the magazine would be PD paid off, and they found the materials they were looking for on Jewish NYC history. Going to upload a few more digitized documents to commons and add some finishing touches to an article on eswiki before coming back to WP:NYHOUSING, it's nice traversing the wiki-verse (and easier to avoid trouble) but I miss enwiki lol. Still banned I'm afraid though I'm allowed to appeal now, thinking of doing so sometime soonish when I muster the courage the go to AN. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 02:12, 8 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Btw, speaking of staying out of trouble, can any admins watching this page lmk if it'd be ok to replace this image on my userpage with this one? Found it while digitizing the documents at the NYPL and love it - while it's less ostentatious than the current one I'm assuming the source will earn me a block unless told otherwise lol. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 02:19, 8 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not an admin but I've made the change for you taking personal responsibility for it. If you are not happy with the change or wish anything more complicated than my simple change, I can revert but I can also remove any image which might be the best solution until your topic ban is lifted. Nil Einne (talk) 18:06, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Nil Einne, thank you!!! That means a lot to me and was a wonderful surprise to see, I'd given up hope of changing it until after my ban lol. Hope you're doing well and enjoy your Halloween! TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 20:57, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There's no need to be sorry for the late reply! Its far more important that you had a great time in real life, and that you've also done some great work for the Commons. I am very glad that you managed to find so many Wiki-related activities outside of the GENSEX area, and please stay on that track until your ban is lifted. I have no doubt that it will happen eventually; until then, focus your attention and productive work elsewhere, as you are already doing! — Sundostund mppria ^{(talk / contribs)} 02:30, 8 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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Hello again, comrade! It's been a long time, and I see neither of us have been that active on enwiki lately. As for me, I've been going through some major life changes, and have written a bit about queer topics in Nynorsk. It's a much more pleasant experience, though sadly feels much less social. :) I'm currently no longer active on the Fediverse; if you have tried to tell me something important, I'm always available on Wikipedia (I stay logged in even if I don't edit) as well as per e-mail.

I see you've been making progress on that topic ban of yours. You've clearly done a good job being "rehabilitated", even under a ban I would modestly describe as very unfair. I'm still ready to write that epistle I talked about in my !vote, should the tables show signs of turning so late in the discussion. In any case, I'm looking excitedly forward to seeing your great contribution to queer articless again soon. <3 -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 20:49, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Maddy from Celeste congratulations!!! I'm really happy to hear that, hope you've been received well. Likewise, eswiki was very enjoyable but not as social (though, their LGBT wikiproject is hella organized and I think enwiki could take some notes).

And thank you! Though it doesn't seem like it'll be necessary as it might even be a snowclose (inshallah lol). I must confess, if there's one thing I learned from my early appeal it's that epistles on the merits or lack thereof of my ban are not universally well received (which is why I kept this one so short and didn't mention the original case)! TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 23:44, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Congrats on the lifting of your topic ban! Loki (talk) 05:43, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@LokiTheLiar thank you! Sadly, I was expecting it to feel better, but it just feels hollow. I know I'm preaching to the choir lol, but a transphobic LTA followed me for weeks, kept insisting my articles weren't neutral, was laughed off like every other SPA who did that in the year I was documenting a hate movement, and the end result was I got banned from anything vaguely related to queer people (or feminism, or acknowledging wikipedia's gender-gap) for bias against far-right, anti-trans, and pro conversion therapy groups... People who literally march with neo-nazis and proud boys - who's sole notability is insisting trans people are sick depraved fetishists, brainwashed children, monsters undeserving of human rights, or all three... I was chastised for saying pseudoscience should not be on the encyclopedia and articles about QUACKS should stick to FRINGE, RS, and NPOV (this whole shitshow never would have lasted more than a day if I'd said the same about anti-vax nonsense). Like, I'm not sure whether it's funnier or more depressing or both that 1) only a minority have ever agreed that banning me was a good idea and 2) SPAs continued to call all my articles biased, and consensus continued to be "yeah this article's in full accordance with FRINGE, RS, and NPOV". I've lost track of the number of friends and family who've compared me still loving Wikipedia and wanting to edit here to stockholm syndrome or making excuses for an abuser. The whole ordeal has been, without hyperbole, the most degrading and humilating experience in my life

But hey, in addition to my lessons learned I mentioned in my appeal I also learned:

1. FRINGE POV-pushers in GENSEX will never face any consequence no matter how much disruption they cause as long as they're "civil" (a bar that's surprisingly low)
2. trans editors should absolutely be scared to edit here - any member of a minority documenting hate groups should be, the bar is higher for us. You edit for a year with a 99% perfect track record and an obvious troll launches a hit-job against you? Gotta go. All your edits in GENSEX are civil PROFRINGE nonsense? Untouchable.
3. my faith in Wikipedia's processes and ability to not give in to false balance narratives was severely misguided (at least in the WP:CESSPIT - in article space my work has stood the test of time)
4. a surprising number of editors see no difference between articles about hate groups, and, y'know, any article vaguely related to trans people.
5. these are by no means new problems, as my research into the history of GENSEX cases on enwiki disturbingly showed me
6. how to avoid kafkaesque POV-railroading in future and how to pass a show trial with flying colors...

It's been a lot. There's a few affairs I want to get in order then I'm taking an indefinite wiki-break - now my name's cleared it's refreshing that quitting, if I choose to, would be my choice. Of course, all of this is made funnier by the fact I documented the majority of the key players in anti-trans activism and so far all my articles have endured - I set out to document the anti-trans movement and succeeded - I was exiled but behind this mask is an idea (notable hate groups should be documented according to RS, NPOV, and FRINGE); and ideas are bulletproof. I can happily mostly fuck off from documenting modern anti-trans groups and focus on queer history instead because taking down my articles would require NPOV, FRINGE, and RS to be ignored by every single editor! Sorry for the rant lol, I've had my mouth stapled shut on enwiki for months and it feels good to be honest.

Finally, a quote from kiwi-farms I consider an incredibly touching tribute to my work (from this October, ie 7 months into my ban...): There is absolutely a cabal of troon editors on Wikipedia who push an extremely pro-TRA editorial slant on any article even tangentially related to their fetish lifestyle. That said, singling out one person in this respect seems a little myopic. If you're going to target a specific Wikipedia user then it should probably be TheTranarchist, who I've noticed is particularly prominent in writing hitpieces on various TERFs and has an outsized influence in directing the course of discussion on the topic. The articles they wrote about SEGM and Genspect (these are just two examples, there are many others) blatantly violate Wikipedia's guidelines on neutrality and their userpage and Mastodon profile indicate they enjoy antagonizing their targets. But again, it's more of an issue with the site in general than with any one person, and harassing them would merely enable them to wallow in their self-appointed victim status more than they already do. Take out the gratuitous insults, leave in calling articles on QUACKS with 2 years of consensus "hit pieces" that "blatantly violate Wikipedia's guidelines", leave in the revelation "it's more of an issue with the site [ie: NPOV, RS, and FRINGE] in general than with any one person" for the comedic effect of saying the quite part out loud and voila... TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 18:23, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Still, congrats on the lifting of your topic ban. I am both sorry that this happened to you, but also glad that you responded to the situation with insight about justice for LGBT+ people in wiki and elsewhere. You defended yourself. The several hundred people before you who experienced the same thing in wiki were unable to defend themselves, and they usually left quietly or sometimes protested only ineffectively. Likewise, countless people off-wiki having comparable experiences were also unable to defend themselves and instead had to accept whatever the world gave to them. I am sorry this burden is on you, but you are one of a handful of people who can imagine how to address this experience which routinely happens at scale to so many people in so many places, and cultures, and over decades. If you ever have insights to share with meta:Wikimedia LGBT+ then they are welcome and invited. That organization is not much, but I contribute to its organization as you know, and its collaboration is what I have to offer. Bluerasberry (talk) 19:02, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  @Bluerasberry thank you! We can discuss this more via email, but I have been hoping to partner with y'all to survey queer editors across wikis about their experiences, which would involve a combination of quantitative questions about general experiences and changes over time and qualitative open-ended questions for thematic analysis. Having some solid data to point to about the experiences of queer editors and how queer topics are handled should go miles towards improving things and seeing what areas need the most attention. Fwiw though, I very pointedly didn't defend myself this time. At my early appeal I wrote an epistle defending myself while being honest about where I did fuck up, was supported by a majority, but the ban was upheld. I called this a show trial, half-jokingly, because I was told by multiple people that the only way to get unbanned in any situation is to plead guilty to every charge and accusation, regardless of the merit of the accusation or my innocence. To just honestly say X, Y, and Z would not be issues going forward - leaving out the observation "and the majority agreed they weren't issues in the first place". TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 20:15, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I would also be very interested in such a survey. :3 -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 22:07, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• I'm very glad to see this topic ban has been lifted! I think the kind of person that went after you (especially offsite!) says it all, really. I've seen you doing good work, and the platform has improved by your presence. --Licks-rocks (talk) 20:09, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  @Licks-rocks thank you! There're a few relevant honorable mentions I want to include today before my break lol. I've been waiting to mention a certain far-right anti-lgbt group wrote a hilarious article about me and their wikipedia article! I actually counted, the majority of their "accusations" are them saying "this is true, so what" or "yes, it's true this group said this about us, but they're groomers". Of course, they may have a point about the "Lies, Fallacies and Fabrications", the long consensus the Wikipedia article's compliant with NPOV and RS notwithstanding - I was banned for bias against such groups after all :p TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 20:46, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Yeah, I saw that one, they seem to have a bit of an issue with understanding consensus, considering their talk page.¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Anyway, feel free to tag me in those surveys you talked about. --Licks-rocks (talk) 21:40, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

-- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 22:02, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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We didn't interact much, but I saw a lot of your editing. Welcome back to editing GenSex. I still liked your old username! it sure did get the attention of the anti-wikipedia Twitter mobs. Zenomonoz (talk) 09:16, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Zenomonoz Thank you! And likewise, seen and appreciate a lot of your editing though we didn't interact much. Wrt the username I'd been wanting to change it before the ban, partly because I'd grown to feel somewhat embarassed by it (I should've spent more than 10 seconds creating it lol) and partly the on-wiki response to it (such as at the talk page for Gloria Hemingway, the first time I experience RGW as a snarl word, though that made me want to keep it more at the time). When the ban came I decided to stick with it until it ended since I didn't want it to effect my unban in either direction and as a point of pride. I like the incredible New Yorkness of my new one. I have a feeling if we give it a little while, GAG will do their ~triweekly twitter complaint and probably alert the Twitter mobs my username has changed :p TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 17:59, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And that reminded me to update my signature lol. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 18:00, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah I don't touch the GAG article for a reason. It's kind of funny they're disputing the label "Anti-LGBT" by claiming they're only opposed to trans people. Their members make homophobic arguments all the time too. Zenomonoz (talk) 22:27, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Understandable and absolutely. Most of their fans are straight too, it's hilarious when they tweet and most of the comments left in support start with "I'm not gay but support GAG". Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 22:55, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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		The LGBT Barnstar
		For your commendable efforts to improve coverage of queer topics; for overcoming your sanction with grace; for pushing through with undiminished resolve; for your great work on Trans history in Brazil.

-- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 22:41, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Maddy from Celeste Thank you!!! <3 Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 18:22, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article History of transgender people in Brazil you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by ChristieBot, on behalf of Maddy from Celeste -- Maddy from Celeste (talk) 23:42, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The article History of transgender people in Brazil you nominated as a good article has failed ; see Talk:History of transgender people in Brazil for reasons why the nomination failed. If or when these points have been taken care of, you may apply for a new nomination of the article. Message delivered by ChristieBot, on behalf of Elli -- Elli (talk) 01:01, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This wasn't supposed to happen, I think it just got confused by the page move… -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 07:55, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Maddy from Celeste yeah I saw that last night and was worried about it before seeing it was a page move error. Anyway, sorry for dropping off yesterday, went to a girlfriend's, got back late, and was too tired to edit when I got home lol. About to start addressing the outstanding points on the article (including the Eli Erlick photos, she got back to me with the high quality photos and CC license specification)! Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 17:53, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A much better use of time than Wikipedia! Great that the photos are getting sorted too. -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 18:17, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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Hi Your Friendly Neighbourhood Sociologist :) I'm looking for people to interview here. Feel free to pass if you're not interested. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 19:11, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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Hi again! Hope you're doing well. I finished the 1918-20 New York City rent strikes finally. It was kind of a beast to try to fully tackle and integrate all the different sources, undoubtly there are also still some oversights even if the broad strokes are there.

Currently it's writing is still a bit messy, which I'll have to improve on in the coming months. But I decided to publish as it's still accurate & gives a fairly good picture. it just needs to have some smoother transitions between sections, some general wording cleanup and a couple paragraph consolidations. Let me know if I've missed anything in the article and any feedback would be greatly appreciated!

On an unrelated note, I think it might be useful to spin off the Wikipedia:WikiProject New York City/Housing and Tenant Rights Task Force to instead a general Housing and Tenant Rights Task Force. I think New York would likely still remain a focus because of it's deep history, but I do think it could be a good idea to make the criteria a bit more flexible and open to new wiki members. Please let me know what you think!

Thanks, LoomCreek (talk) 00:30, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@LoomCreek I am thanks! Likewise hope the same.

The article looks great on a first read! I'll try and and review it more thoroughly, copyedit it, and lyk my thoughts in the coming days!

I'm interested, but I worry it'll split many members attention. I personally like that the project has a relatively modest goal/scope which lends itself to systematic documentation (strikes, organizations, key people, etc) in such a way the project can be mostly completed, but I can't speak to other's thoughts.

I suppose a larger question for me is scope: where would we put it? If it's generalized to worldwide history, Wikiproject Housing and Tenancy might make more sense than a task force. Or if we create task forces for other regions, maybe link them at WP:LABOR or WP:URBAN. Linking to regionalized task forces there would be best in my mind as it would allow people to choose/switch between a generalized approach and focusing on their own cities/states. I'm also somewhat lazy and think that would be easier than modifying the task force itself lol, since it's under a NY page, ties into NY/NYC wikiboxes, and is tied to NY related categories.

I'd recommend asking a wider audience about interest first, posting at WP:NYHOUSING, WP:URBAN, WP:SQUAT, WP:LABOR, WP:COMMUNISM, WP:ANARCHISM, WP:HISTORY, WP:HR, WP:SOCIOLOGY, WP:HLWP, and WP:SHUK. Workshopping the pitch, lmk of what you think about something along these lines:

Hi! I'm LoomCreek and a member of the New York Housing and Tenant Rights Task Force where we've been documenting the history of land ownership and tenant advocacy in the state and city. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist and I want to guage interest in creating a larger task force for worldwide history and/or more regionally specific ones. If interested, please let us know at <a link to a sandbox page signup type page> about what your interests are and whether you'd prefer a regional task force, a world-wide wikiproject, or both. In ~2 weeks we'll start creating them based on requests (5+ for a regional task force, 10+ for a wikiproject). Best regards,

Best regards, Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 17:35, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I totally respect that! I'll be staying in the taskforce regardless. My focus personally is researching and then creating articles around tenant organizing & housing rights more generally, although focused primarily in the US.

I probably will eventually contact the groups you suggested to see if there is any interest in either a broad Housing and Tenancy Wikiproject or regional taskforces which I agree might be the best balance. I really greatly appreciate the help in drafting a pitch to gauge interest.

While unrelated I also want to thank you for your work in GenSex, and congrats on getting the ban lifted! I saw the talk page congratulations by everyone else, It's undoubtedly hard work, especially with the harassment. But just know it's greatly appreciated by many, myself included, and to not get too discouraged! - LoomCreek (talk) 04:07, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Glad to hear! IIRC I've not seen any resources on the US at large, but a few on different cities, but I'll keep an eye out for them. I'll also probably help out with other regions in the U.S. time to time, more so as NYHOUSING gets more complete. Happy to help with the pitch! And thank you, it's made editing a hell of a lot easier lol. Though I love NYHOUSING, I was there in exile from GENSEX broadly construed, the whole reason I joined WP in the first place, so I could never tell if I was truly there of my own volition and fully appreciate it - it feels amazing to now move fluidly between my home topics! Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 19:26, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@LoomCreek I've been reviewing the article (stellar work!) and come across a small snag, dyk where I can access Urban castles: tenement housing and landlord activism in New York City, 1890 - 1943? I thought I'd tracked down a copy at one point but checking libgen and the WP library I can't find it anywhere lol. I'm about to try and make some reference formatting edits for the heavily cited books in the meantime! Best, Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 19:42, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Beccaynr I hope you've been doing well! I'm pinging you to ask if you think Template:sfn would be useful here, particularly with references 2, 4, 5, and 7 since they're heavily cited books. I don't have much experience with it but you do iirc so I'd appreciate your advice! Best regards, Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 19:56, 9 December 2023 (UTC) (P.S. I changed my username lol)[reply]

Hi! I haven't used the sfn template, but after reviewing the article and how the sources are used, I think it will work well. Cheers and the happiest of holidays to you! Beccaynr (talk) 02:42, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks and likewise! Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 16:46, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry about the delay! I had a bit of an unexpectedly busy few days. Agreed it's great that you now have the freedom to move through between the two topics again.

And thank you! I really appreciate it. It was really rewarding learning about the history in more depth. I think one of the oddly rewarding aspects was recovering a bunch of the old photos, most were up until this point relegated to forgotten newspapers archives, I had to exclude a lot just for space. I'm up with the use of an sfn template given how heavily I used page citations.

For Urban castles: tenement housing and landlord activism in New York City, 1890 - 1943:

There is a incomplete google books preview online, which is probably where you remember encountering it. Which might be helpful for searching through to confirm some of the claims.

The only place I've been able to find the complete book is as a physical copy unfortunately.

I've searched everywhere online, and same as you I've had no luck, all I've encountered are journal review articles of it. For the full book, I'd go to a large library or request it through a library system.

Cheers, LoomCreek (talk) 08:11, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No worries and you're welcome! I know that feeling, in-depth research is why I love WP, and whenever I find a cache of historical public domain images it's fantastic. I'll try and factor in the sfn today. Thanks for the confirming that! I suppose I've gotta head to the library soon lol. Best, Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 17:00, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate the sfn formatting and good luck getting the book!, LoomCreek (talk) 04:22, 12 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No problem and thanks! Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 18:24, 12 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The article Transgender history in Brazil you nominated as a good article has passed ; see Talk:Transgender history in Brazil for comments about the article, and Talk:Transgender history in Brazil/GA1 for the nomination. Well done! If the article has never appeared on the Main Page as a "Did you know" item, and has not appeared within the last year either as "Today's featured article", or as a bold link under "In the news" or in the "On this day" prose section, you can nominate it within the next seven days to appear at DYK. Bolded names with dates listed at the bottom of the "On this day" column do not affect DYK eligibility. Message delivered by ChristieBot, on behalf of Maddy from Celeste -- Maddy from Celeste (talk) 08:02, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Congrats on the GA! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 15:26, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

First I've seen this; yes, congrats! In response, I've added an empty subsection heading to Transgender history § Brazil awaiting your input, if you're willing. Do you think you could add a paragraph or two there in WP:Summary style based on your new article? Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 12:32, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Mathglot thank you! I just had the time to add a summary, it ended up being 2.5 paragraphs but was as much as I could condense it - I broke it down into the loose timeframes following the article: 1) pre-colonization 2) colonization 3) the 50s until the dictatorship 4) the first half of the dictatorship 5) the second half 6) the post dictatorship period until 2000 and 7) the 2000+ (with a bit of overlap blurring the lines) and think it got to the crux of all of them. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 22:58, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's great. Can you have a look at S2 ("..were imposed upon the indigenous restructuing...") which has a typo, and maybe a missing word or something after indigenous, as I find it confusing. And if you want to rack up another three GA's, you could always spin off the sections there on § Chile, § Colombia, or § Peru into new articles. 😁 Thanks again! Mathglot (talk) 01:26, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No problem! I just rewrote the sentence to clarify it. And I'm certainly tempted and hopefully will one day, though higher on my list and related to the idea is translating the eswiki article on Trans history in Argentina lol. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 02:32, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Might be able to help with that, if I have time. Did you know you can watchlist items that don't exist? I just watchlisted Transgender history in Argentina (and the Draft) so I'll get notified, when you do. It's a very handy feature, and I've used it in the gender space to watch for articles that might get created (sometimes hoping they won't). It's a good way to stay on top of certain things, and if necessary, be there at the beginning to help guide them properly from the outset and help keep them from going off the rails early on. Mathglot (talk) 08:01, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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I've let an admin know about the IP editor. You were responding in good faith. Zenomonoz (talk) 22:27, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I would say at this point that Draft:Association for a Better New York is in good enough shape to be moved to mainspace. Unless you would prefer to keep working in draft, I would be happy to make the move. Cheers! BD2412 T 02:24, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@BD2412 Thanks! I would prefer to keep it in draft a bit longer though, it needs some final polishing (some flow, details, and a lead) I put off for today last night lol. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 17:02, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No problem. Just let me know when you're ready. There is no deadline. BD2412 T 17:23, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@BD2412 Finished! Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 20:07, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Done. BD2412 T 20:49, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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So I've noticed you in the past on the article talk pages of wiki articles talking about LGBT issues, and I've always loved what additions you've made to Wikipedia. Now, I'm even more struck by awe when I know that some organisations tried to rally together a lynch mob against a freaking Wikipedia editor with a straight face, and you just stood still in the middle of the trolls, continuing your efforts. But I've heard that you've been topic banned from articles talking about LGBT subjects. How did that happen? Why? How can I help? Can I help to bring you back somehow? I really wish I could see you back on there :3 So, if you or anyone could tell me why you've been banned and what's going to happen now, that'd be great ;3 Alwaysgonnaedit (talk) 19:03, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I can tell, YFNS/Tranarchist is no longer topic banned.

As for why it happened, I honestly couldn't tell you. If I had closed the exact same discussion, I would have closed it as no consensus for a topic ban. Loki (talk) 00:42, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, thanks for the info! I have trouble navigating the different logs of Wikipedia, so I couldn’t directly check ^^’ Alwaysgonnaedit (talk) 07:06, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Welp, my bad! I forgot to check her latest edits. Glad to see the community did its thing and she's back to making her amazing contributions!

Sorry for the inconvenience :P Alwaysgonnaedit (talk) 00:32, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for forgetting to respond to you, it's been a hectic few weeks between work and some personal drama lol.

Thank you for the kind words! I do want to clarify though:

1. Various anti-trans pseudoscience/hate groups have definitely complained about me and/or my work. However, that has never had any effect on my ban or any article content (though it's resulted in a few page protections, overfilled talk page archives, and sockpuppeting cases)
2. While I do not think the ban was an accurate read of the community's opinion or a proportionate response to the issues raised, editors didn't call to ban me out of the blue. While a majority did not believe a ban was appropriate, a majority did believe my behavior and editorial standards had not been up to standard and merited some form of sanction, and they were right as I often acted immaturely early in my wikipedia career.

Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 22:06, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist

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		The LGBT Barnstar
		I never knew her but the community of queer historians is small and the people who knew her in my circles are grieving hard. Thanks for taking the time to make this.Computer-ergonomics (he/him; talk; please ping me in replies ) 15:01, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Computer-ergonomics, no problem, and thank you for the barnstar!

I'm in somewhat the same boat, I'd seen her around various events and protests since I was 16 but never really knew her like that. I'd heard her name spoken often by across people the city without putting her face to the name - just a few weeks ago some friends were talking about the repeal of the walking while trans law and how she was the one we had to thank for that (and they then pointed out the Transmissions Fest she started). And I'm close with many people who knew her personally and/or even worked with her before. But it was awful to wake up and hear my roommate tell me the news and see posts from almost everyone I know paying tribute to her. Hell, I don't have a trans friend in New York who's life she hasn't impacted some way: personally, through legislation, or her organizations. When I realized she didn't have an article, despite all she's done for us and being a legend in own lifetime, I got mad and ended up doing a research/writing deep-dive for hours and didn't stop until I published. Idk, I feel like I'm rambling, she was an auntie to us all and she was taken too soon, I'm glad I helped write that article to help ensure she's remembered (and that multiple editors have come in to help, thank you @Funcrunch & @ForsythiaJo!). Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 21:46, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As someone who lives outside New York and hadn't heard of Gentili until yesterday, thank you for doing the research and writing the article! May her memory be a revolution. ForsythiaJo (talk) 21:58, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This was how I felt when I wrote the Johnny Science article, though he died in 2007. We have real power as Wikipedians to bring hidden figures into view! Computer-ergonomics (he/him; talk; please ping me in replies ) 00:49, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely! At some point I want to start drafting Transgender history in New York or Transgender history in New York City since the city/state has been a locus for trans activism for a while and I think there's enough coverage to merit a separate article. I'll ping you when I start if you're interested! Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 23:00, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm very glad to see that your topic ban is lifted! Of course, it shouldn't have been imposed in the first place at all. Please receive my (belated) congratulations for that, I wasn't aware of its lifting until today. Same goes for your new username – when did you change it? Anyway, I hope that you are well, and that now you'll be able to continue your important work in the GENSEX area, your prime focus of interest and expertise here. — Sundostund mppria ^{(talk / contribs)} 09:07, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Sundostund thank you! I changed my username shortly after my unban, I'd been wanting to do it before the ban but once banned my username became a point of pride lol. I'm doing fairly well and hope you are too, I've been busy with contracts and personal drama recently so haven't had as much time to edit as I'd like but I've been trying to get back into the habit. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 23:04, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm glad to hear that you are doing fine! I can say the same for myself. I hope that, soon, you'll have more time to edit as you'd want to... Just to mention – when it comes to the GENSEX area and the related issues, I really admire Celina Jaitly. She's and Indian actress, but is much more famous through her LGBT-related activism. Some years ago, I followed her involvement in activism to repeal Section 377, her role in the relaunch of Bombay Dost magazine, and much publicized discussion with an Indian cleric (in 2009 or so). I also created this userbox about her, a couple of years ago. — Sundostund mppria ^{(talk / contribs)} 23:18, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for letting me know about her! Pity her article doesn't mention more of her activism, I'll try and incorporate some more of that sometime. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 23:58, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I know, that's partly the reason why I mentioned her – beside the fact that I generally admire her, and that her activism is closely linked with your topics of interest. I know that you are an expert in the GENSEX area, and her article does need some elaboration on her activism. Whenever you find some time, try to expand it however you see fit. Anyway, I found out about her in quite a random way, like 15 years ago, when I saw her activism online – maybe it was this article that I first saw, or something similar. — Sundostund mppria ^{(talk / contribs)} 13:09, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh yes, I almost forgot to show you these articles (1 and 2); I'm sure you'll be really interested in them! — Sundostund mppria ^{(talk / contribs)} 17:47, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lost track of where I first heard of the History/rights table in your sandbox, probably at WP:LGBT, but anyway, I have some feedback for you at its Talk page. Mathglot (talk) 05:09, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Have a look at */sandbox/Trans articles by region2 and let me know what you think. (Check out the cool interwiki link in the middle cell of the India row.) I still have some more ideas, but I think this is getting close to being useful on the project somewhere; plus I had fun chasing down some templating ideas I've long wanted to explore, but never had the occasion to until now. Mathglot (talk) 11:34, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Mathglot, sorry the last few days have been a bit hectic and I'm hosting my nesting girlfriend's birthday party tonight so I don't have much time, but I wanted to let you know I think it looks great and I really appreciate the work you've done on it and the other templating work you've done the past few days! I've set aside some time tomorrow to look more in-depth, but I like what I've seen. The only thing that strikes me as a bit odd is the config file - I think that's mostly just a bit of surprise not having seen that format before lol. I feel like parts of the config might be better as just params and the loop may be giving up ease of individual customization, but that may just be personal preference. When we're done with it, I'd definitely like to build Template:LGBT articles in region and abstract some of the code we wrote out. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 22:19, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Re odd loop/config: I don't necessarily disagree, the loop and config was a kind of tradeoff against doing the whole thing in Lua (which I'm not capable of at this point) with the config as a Lua hash and the loop being driven off an easily modifiable country list (which the template forloop doesn't permit). However, pushing it all to Lua would mean even less ease of customization, so I ended up in this kind of middling ground, but I'm open to whatever adjustment is needed. The code in the tafr row builder is robust wrt looping iterator, in that you can replace the iterator elements in the main table, which currently use ISO-639-alpha2, with -alpha3 instead (e.g., USA instead of US, etc.) or even with the full country name and it will all work, so maybe we should do that for transparency, and change the loop iterators to have full name and one country per line, and then it will be much more easily modifiable. I guess I went with the alpha-2 iterators because I was worried about the table maybe one day having almost 200 countries (and what about states, provinces, cities even?) some day, and as long as that damn forloop iterator has to be explicitly coded in-line and not transcluded from a list-of-regions config, which was the first thing I did in the config file (see earlier versions if curious) but I could never get the iterators to work unless hard-coded; if you can, that would be a big win for modifiability, because that could just be one config page with a list of countries; no squirrelly template code to scare anyone away.

The config is kind of the same thing, being a workaround for a hash or other kind of Lua structure that would be even less modifiable. The config can even be done with no template conditionals at all, by setting up a config page with header sections containing single data items which are non-scary to non-template editors cuz no template code, but I didn't think it was worth going that far. I did something like that back when Leslie Feinberg was having wars and other problems with pronouns, and ended up with a config for a while, but I ended up userfying it because it was pretty non-standard for mainspace; you can see it at User:Mathglot/Leslie Feinberg/pronouns and it worked just fine in a test at the article, and it's pretty obvious how to modify the config (even though it would be a lot more compact as a #switch statement) but as you pointed out, less user-friendly for non-template editors; so that's a possible approach. Plus, I think the bar is just a lot lower on configs or other creative template (and Module) usage in Wikipedia space than it would be in mainspace; we just have to find the right trade-off between modifiability and power.

There was one other aspect that is only partially developed (see Draft:Aad) that isn't present in the current version (but is in the history of the /col2 template) that uses icons (or icon-like Unicode chars) to decorate the article titles in the tables. This is an extension of the Class/icon thing, and adds on file length, redirects that could possibly be notable articles, and article protection levels. This is still in Draft, but it's basically an abstraction which attempts to leverage the advantages of icons over lots of text. The icons are still too large and obtrusive, but maybe with the right size and placement could be useful.

One thing I forgot to mention: the 'T' abbreviation: I thought of going even shorter ("T hist Argentina", "TRights", etc., to narrow the table down further and make it better for smaller devices. For mobile users, we could use {{ifmobile}} and present them as alpha-3 codes e.g., "TH ARG" and shorten the column headers as well. But that's not my top priority.

About abstracting: although the tripartite division of the columns is probably unique to trans topics, I'm all for abstracting stuff out, and maybe providing a model so that this and other WikiProjects can build useful tables like this. I had one eye out on that the whole time, and even though it was lots of fun developing it, I wouldn't have done it if it were only applicable to this one table, so it was/is kind of a proof of concept and testing the practicality of it all. Would be fun to develop something with you, a set of tools, or building blocks, or conventions or whatever that would aid other projects in better tracking stuff so they could improve their own projects. Go enjoy your party (insert icons birthday cake, hat, noisemaker, clinking champagne flutes, ice cream, here); no hurry, look forward to your ideas when you get back. Mathglot (talk) 23:16, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, if you're not using sticky table headers, they're helpful for stuff like this. Go to preferences, and enter "sticky" in the 'search preferences' input box. Mathglot (talk) 23:22, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That explanation clarifies a lot, thank you! I think in the config is a pretty good solution, it just needs to be linked prominently on the page and have some extra guidance in the noinclude. I also really like the Aad template as I was thinking as I tried to cobble together the original icon display that it should be abstracted out lol. And the party went quite well!

I'll look at passing in the regions from the config because that should theoretically definitely be possible.

On narrowing, I agree, but was thinking more general/abstractable descriptive info about the article's state: Article exists, Article DNE, Redirects, and Draft exists for example (with all the additional bells and whistles we added).

I'd love to work together on that! After trying to fix the regions transclusion, I'll start drafting some templates. I think the basic order to further abstract this is:

• Article info template: {{Article info|Transgender history in Brazil|config=place/config}} - returning the content we currently have per column, possibly with the linked text I proposed above
• Some global config for defaults for regions (fixing region names, linking articles to their region's main language, region lists like states by country, countries by continent, etc)
• Regional article rows:
  • {{Regional article summary/row|Bolivia|Transgender history in REGION|Transgender rights in REGION|Transgender people in REGION|config=place/config}}
  • {{Regional article summary/row|Bolivia|LGBT history in REGION|LGBT rights in REGION|LGBT people in REGION|LGBT culture in REGION|config=place/config}}
  • Pass in a region name then variable number of rows where REGION will be replaced by the first paramter
• Regional article summary: {{Regional article summary|LGBT history in REGION|LGBT rights in REGION|...|config=place/config|regions=<region list name>}}

There will be more parameters to add and tweaks to make, but that's about the basic functionality on top of which it'll be easy for people to specify topics and/or build wrappers!

Also, thanks for the sticky headers info, it's a wonderful tweak! Best, Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 22:43, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Briefly:

I'll look at passing in the regions from the config because that should theoretically definitely be possible.

It is definitely possible (the original config listed all the countries) but I don't think it's possible using forloop, which seems to require an explicit, hard-coded iterator (or the range-type, which doesn't work for us, although you could make it work with a row-builder template that awkwardly numbered its countries, but that would be more opaque than helpful), so you kind of have to roll your own looper if you want to drive it off a ○onfig, something like the 'all' pseudo-type does at Draft:Aad via recursion. I tried a lot of ways to get the iterator to be transcludable and finally gave up. If you can figure out a way, that would be great! More on the rest of it later... Mathglot (talk) 23:34, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am pleased to report I got it working! I ended up having to make Template:For loop delimited to do so lol, but it's a handy enough function I'm sure others will find it useful in future. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 23:56, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent! Can't look at the moment, but can't wait to do so. Good work! Oh, your mention of Exists/DNE reminded me of a Draft:Aad icon I had planned to add and then forgot; you maybe know the mathematical backwards E and crossed out version for exists/doesn't—and I think I forgot a couple other file attributes I wanted to decorate as well. Mathglot (talk) 00:04, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

More on looping, if you need a comparison, see {{Contentious topics/table}}. There's also these. Mathglot (talk) 20:56, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Mathglot, sorry for dropping this, the last few weeks have been very hectic for me lol. Just wanted to give you a heads up I'm planning to find some time to put some more work into the Regional Summary templates and hopefully finish them this weekend! Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 23:04, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Mathglot, hope you've been doing well! I got the groundwork for Template:Regional articles done! Sorry it took me a while, this weekend my wiki-focus was stolen and drained by a certain controversial pseudo-diagnosis lol.

It's in a rough state (as are the helper templates), but I have to meet some friends now so won't have time to fix/document it further until I come home. The linked template includes 2 examples, one passing a list of regions, another passing the name of a preconfigured list of regions.

My next steps are various fixes to make sure you can pass the same # of article titles, extra fixes to the names/prefixed names, handling of categories, updating it to include REGIONAL XYZ people as that's a common title format (it currently handles XYZ in REGION only), and the ability to pass specialized config files for the additional notes per row.

I'm really happy it's beginning to shape up! Lmk any thoughts or input you have. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 23:41, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Am just starting in on this, and will have more to say later. Am I correct that this template is the generalization of what we've been working on, so that it could be used for more general topics, and that with the appropriate config or params, will generate the same table we have been talking about? First impressions is about the doc: can you add an objective/purpose statement above the ==Usage== section? "This template may be used for/to ... for example, to create a ... at a WikiProject (??) in order to ...". It generates a table of ... configurable by ... ". Second: in the Examples, expose the wikicode that generates the table. See {{tlg}}. When an invocation generates a large amount of text, you can embed the {{tlg}} in a {{cot}} or {{markup}}, such as at {{Reflib#Examples}}, or {{Sfnlink#Examples}}. Third, looking at the doc, it wasn't clear what is configurable. The number of columns? Or is that fixed? Their content? Also, in the last column, I assume all those 'Article DNE' red links are something you are still working on; but if not, what do they mean? More later. Mathglot (talk) 08:58, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I feel like we're getting close to something really useful. Do you? Mathglot (talk) 09:49, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Am I correct that this template is the generalization of what we've been working on, so that it could be used for more general topics, and that with the appropriate config or params, will generate the same table we have been talking about? Yep! The next big step is the regional notes, but I think I know a way to pass them as params to make the template usage simple (something like {{Regional articles|title|another title|regions=countries|UnitedStatesNotes=Some notes|BrazilNotes=More notes|...}} ), followed by handling languages in a similar fashion. I'll get back to you in the config section below after trying that out, but very brief response I think the current organization is good if needing extension, and if I can get that param passing working then it'll be easy to keep that behind the scenes for handling defaults and let people not bother with it.

I feel like we're getting close to something really useful Me too! I just cleaned up the doc per your notes and hope it better illustrates the current functionality, though it's going to have to grow as I add more features lol. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 22:58, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks; not sure I've grokked it all yet, but would handling a variable number of positional params (regions) be what you want? Think about how {{sfn}} works, where you say, {{sfn}}, or {{Doe}} where the param is content-defined; i.e., {{{2}}} could be year, or it could be author2, depending what's in there. Arguing against this, is that that approach is pretty rare (but seems to work well for sfn) and you have to make sure your 'content' is definitely identifiable, no grey areas trying to guess what the next one is. Or, just make all the regions positional, and everything non-region named; that's well-defined, and probably simpler. Mathglot (talk) 23:10, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just realized DNE is ∄ (U+2204). Funny, I just started a VPT topic about something related to that, that fizzled. Mathglot (talk) 23:16, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Speaking of that discussion, you're aware of expensive parser functions and the PP limit report, right? That came up at VPT, and may be relevant here, if we do a lot of exists/DNE testing, multiplied by R rows by C columns. Limit is 500 for expensive calls, doesn't sound like we would hit that, at least not in one table; but if some project page had multiple, or long tables, I can see that happening. Iirc, they don't get expanded if in a collapse section, so one way to protect against exceeding the limit, is by collapsing tables with {{cot}} / {{cob}}, and if there are multiple tables on a page, just open one at a time. Mathglot (talk) 07:13, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Display inline-block issue at Article length bar[edit]

Hi, YFNS, I've been working on a related decoration template for article size, because I think the icons emitted by {{alr}} are too opaque. It's at Draft:Article length bar, and it's emitting the right diagram, but it's displaying in block mode, instead of inline mode. The style at Draft:Article length bar/styles.css derives from {{Thermometer/styles.css}}, and may be the source of the problem; in particular, I think the first two divs can be combined. Be that as it may, you seem pretty good at this stuff; do you see how to update the draft template so that it emits the image in inline display mode? Mathglot (talk) 12:05, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, don't bother. I think I'm going to redo it entirely; I think the three divs inherited from Thermometer are overkill, and it can be done a lot more simply. Mathglot (talk) 19:50, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I completely redid the design; lmk what you think. Will respond later to the previous section update (thanks for that). You seem very good at programming; how's your css? Check out the last example for vertical mode; it goes down from the baseline due to the gradient; but if I flip it the other way, I have the opposite problem. Do you know how to make it grow upwards from baseline, with green at the bottom, and yellow/red (if needed, or empty if not) at the top? Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 00:12, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It looks great! I checked and saw you added vertical mode, so I made a quick fix to bottom align the text since the top-aligned text felt out of sync with the right-to-left and bottom-to-top mapping (feel free to revert if you prefer the previous styling though). Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 05:09, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's fine, thank you for that. Am still looking for a solution that would facilitate the bar growing up from the baseline, i.e., think bar chart, with multiple vertical bars all growing upwards from a common y=0 x-axis. (But maybe there's a better way to do that.) In the meantime, I've beefed up the doc considerably, and added sparkline support, making it easier to do this, in some Talk page discussion:

...comparing the articles for France , Germany , and Italy .

Mathglot (talk) 09:08, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ah gotcha, I was a little confused what you meant but bar chart cleared it up lol. I'll look into it this weekend, I don't think I'll have the time tonight and I want to sleep on it since a quick review shows the current code would have to be significantly modified to work with that (gradients won't work, the basic structure will be an inline div with divs of variable height/color for each bar). I think the current vertical display might be useful, so I'll add it as a new mode (bar) instead of rewriting vert if that's ok with you! Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 21:07, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Honestly, I wouldn't waste too much time on vert (unless you're just having fun doing it) until we know if anybody even wants it. If the current approach won't work for vertical bar, maybe it's easier/better just to strip out vert and be done with it. The one place I thought it might be possibly interesting, is as an alternative for narrower tables in mobile view, where maybe you would have a skinny column just for vertical length bars. But even there, that probably just eats up a bit more horizontal space that isn't necessary, because if we are going to have article names in the table at all, then the horizontal bar, appropriately sized, can just sit below it. So I don't really see much of a downside in just stripping out the vertical mode. Part of its raison d'etre was to see if it could be done, and I thought perhaps in bar charts or very skinny table columns, but now I'm not so sure we really need it. I'm fine with anything you want to do there: rewrite to keep vert; strip it out; leave as is; I'm leaning toward stripping it, but open.

The other thing I'm thinking about, now that it's basically working, is the colors. They are strong, primary colors, and I'm thinking about your table, and what it would be like with three of them per row for a couple dozen rows: it might be too overwhelming or feel like the inside of a kaleidoscope, so I'm thinking more towards having muted, or pastels. Still based on stoplight colors, which everybody understands so a legend is almost superfluous, but softer so it doesn't dominate or detract. Maybe small as a sparkline, as well, which still conveys the info well enough. As far as the technical end of colors: I don't see a way to get linear gradient colors into the /styles.css file, but it would be easy enough to put them into the config file, and even to add override params, if that was desirable. Mathglot (talk) 22:56, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, a future flash: I will have a template programming question for you (on a completely separate issue) regarding proper handling of defaults for missing pass-thru params in a template. Don't have the question well-formed yet, but if you want a sneak peak, see {{Smoke test}}, Template:Archives/testcases/Smoke test, Template:Archives/sandbox#Smoke test (not invoking right), Template:Archives/testcases#Smoke test (works, but only because it is not via the {{smoke test}} template, so not a solution), and the wikicode of Template:Archives/doc#Examples (search for '{{smoke test}}'). Something is wrong with the invocation of smoke test from the sandbox in preview mode, when the call to {{smoke test}} has no pass-thru params, is the trigger condition, I think. If you provide pass-thru params in Template:Archives/doc#Examples, then it works. I'll try and get a better statement of what's wrong together, but if I can get this working right, it will be a real productivity booster when developing templates in the sandbox. Mathglot (talk) 23:01, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

config[edit]

We talked about the config above, and I was also somewhat leery of using a config as I hadn't seen that kind of thing before here, but having thought over various approaches, decided to go with it. I was still hoping to find other uses of config files to have comfort in numbers and precedent, and now I have some examples: User:MusikBot II/TemplateProtector/config and Module:Footnotes/whitelist. They both look like JSON to me, though I'm not familiar with JSON commenting, so maybe it's some variant, or a plain vanilla Lua hash with Lua comments.

In any case, one is for a bot and the other is for the Footnotes module that deals with Sfn and all that, and it makes me more comfortable that the config approach here is okay; I have a hard time seeing how one could say it's okay for a Module, but not for a template. So I feel we're good to go now with a config, and needn't worry further about that approach; but I wanted to solicit your feedback about that. (I also just found {{Infobox element/symbol-to-term-symbol}} while writing this, which provides even more support; it's harder to find them when they don't have 'config' in the title, so there may be lots more of these.)

Secondarily—and of less concern, but as long as we're talking about configs—there's the issue of what language/style the config should be. I had considered JSON at the outset, because I see it being used in the WP:TemplateData sections in the /doc for many templates to drive the Visual editor users who want to use the template. But in the end, I decided that we write templates in "template language" (so to speak) and it seemed most natural to me to just continue that; after all, if we didn't have a config, that's how that functionality would have to be coded back in the template, and why search around for a JSON-parsing template just to grab config data via transclusion that didn't need any special handling? So just having the config as a big switch seemed like a natural choice to me, just as a Lua array/JSON might be natural for a Module. (I even considered other possibilities; a list of easily matchable key/value pairs; a page with separate sections where each section has one value and you do selective transclusion to grab the value, as in this edit at Leslie Feinberg supported by a subtemplate config, since userfied to here.)

I ended up going with a config also for the {{Article length bar}} (at {{Alb/c}} ) as well, with some override params, the idea being that the config establishes the sitewide defaults but is separate from the template to facilitate adjustment without mucking with the bowels of somewhat intricate template code, while the override params allow any editor who wishes to transclude the template to use different values than the config on a case-by-case basis. (And I know I still owe you a response above on the Alb template, and I'll loop back to that eventually.) Thoughts? Mathglot (talk) 08:04, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

aad released[edit]

Wrote this comment up and lost it, somehow. Anyway, {{Article attribute decoration}} is released from Draft and is now live. There was a fair bit of housekeeping, if anything is broken, I probably forgot something. I fixed one call in {{Article info}}, so hopefully that propagates, but if something is broken anyway, try purging the page. The 'all' subtemplate will dump several icons (or unicode chars), so you can have {{aad/all|Transgender history in Argentina}} → 18.8k (or the lightweight, character-based version: {{aad/all|Transgender history in Argentina|raw=y}} → ↳18.8kb Ⓝд ). Since I see you are using exists/DNE in the Regions template, should I add something to add for that as well? Mathglot (talk) 19:01, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! It looks good and nothing seems to be broken lol. I think so, I'm surprised we don't already have an icon for DNE used more commonly across WP. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 19:11, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

continuing[edit]

Have been away and mostly inactive for a couple of weeks, as you probably noticed, but would like to pick up on this again. I'd like to see this table development platform (or whatever we want to call it) get used in one place at least (Argentina? Templates that are not used end up at Tfd from an active group scouring for them) where it could then serve as a model for use elsewhere. Am happy to collaborate with you on this, but as you created the initial concept it makes sense for you to take lead on it. Am happy to assist further in whatever way you need. Maybe start with bringing me up to date where things stand now? Mathglot (talk) 22:02, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This was deleted from mainspace as an advertisement, and I have restored it to draft per a WP:RFU request. The organization is clearly notable, but the current presentation of the article is a no-go. Let me know what you think. Cheers! BD2412 T 19:52, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@BD2412 thanks for passing that on! Yeah the article as it stands reads hagiographical, but I've definitely seen the name before in my research. A quick google scholar search for the name brings back ~5000 results, at a glance a fair bit of those are irrelevant passing mentions and/or cruft but there should be enough. I'm probably going to be too busy to get to it for a few weeks (no rest for the wicked and self-employed lol), but it's definitely on my radar and I'll do some more research when I get the chance! Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 20:23, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent, thanks. No rush at all. BD2412 T 20:36, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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I do try to default-"they" any editor whose gender I've not researched, but I am an oldster and I slip in that from time to time. I shall continue to try to do better. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 23:26, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No worries, no offense intended none taken! Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 23:42, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Per your comments at Talk:Puberty blocker#Science based medicine. I've seen this before, where anything concerning trans matters from the UK is dismissed per "TERF Island" prejudicial comments. I strongly advise you stop that right now as that path leads to an Arbcom topic ban. It isn't even like the US is any better, so such an prejudicial attitude is liable to mockery, never mind having no place on Wikipedia. -- Colin°^Talk 15:37, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Colin, thank you for the advice and I hope you're doing well. I do believe you are misinterpreting my argument though.

1) I fully support inclusion of the NICE review.

2) I also support a short RS-backed statement that a FOI request for the authors was denied (a bit of easily verifiable sociopolitical content, not MEDRS content).

3) Some on the page keep arguing we can't use SBM for the latter since it's not a MEDRS source, but by their logic, one now needs a systematic review of puberty blockers saying "this systematic review's authors denied a FOI request" to include it, which is stretching MEDRS past the extreme (and manifestly silly, as that's not how systematic reviews work or what they report on). It also ignores that MEDRS explicitly states that non-MEDRS information in MEDRS article can rely on RS, not MEDRS.

Additionally, with regards to your note on the U.S. v. U.K., you are missing a key bit of context. The U.K. Government has been internationally criticized, even by the Council of Europe for it's demeaning attitudes towards trans people and failure to provide timely care. The U.S. varies state by state. The national organizations all support trans healthcare, and while there's been international criticism (medical and human-rights based) it has been directed towards the states rather than the country as a whole.

• For example, Florida released a report finding there's no evidence transition helps people, which was nationally and internationally medically and ethically panned. It was also made with the involvement of SEGM & co IIRC. We do not use that report, even though it was by a government agency, because of the context.

Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 16:21, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You wrote: If we would not treat a review by the Russian equivalent of NICE finding homosexuality to be infectious or etc to be infallible, then we shouldn't give a lot of weight to a review by anonymous authors criticized by leading international professional groups from a country a Council of Europe report found to have a human rights problem due mass vilification of trans people, rising anti-trans sentiment, and rollbacks and attacks on transgender civil liberties due to the rise in power of the gender-critical movement.[20] The United Kingdom's abyssal treatment of trans people is internationally considered WP:FRINGE. is the sort of comment that will make eyes roll and admins reach for sanctions. You might as well have gone full Godwin's Law and compared the UK to Nazi Germany. An all this FOI request stuff is insinuation that is not befitting a medical article on Wikipedia. Save it for a blog. Stop throwing that WP:FRINGE link around too. That's for flat earth stuff, not the medical guidelines from the experts of a country of 60 million. Please go examine some other NICE guidelines, pick a non-controversial topic, like epilepsy treatment in children, say. I think you'll find that NICE routinely report that medical therapies lack evidence. This review would be quite surprising if it did otherwise.

Seriously, if I see the Council of Europe mentioned one more time in a talk page discussion trying to dismiss a source from the UK, and a top-tier source like this, I will take whoever said it to the relevant forum for a topic ban. You cannot dismiss an entire democracy of 60 million people. It is outrageously offensive. I hope that is clear. -- Colin°^Talk 19:50, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a relevant peer-reviewed criticism of these specific NICE reports and the Cass Review in general in the worlds' leading publication on transgender healthcare.[1] Much better source than SBM, and they say who chaired the reports so the FOI point is moot, it was chaired by Cass. Y'know, I hadn't realized they straight up excluded trans people from the experts pool in their initial terms of reference and that they actually ignored the GRADE approach recommendation that low-quality studies can lead to strong recommendations. It's nice they also point out the evidence inequality in that the Cass Review has put a no-evidence non-affirmative approach on par with a low-quality (by GRADE) but evidenced affirmative approach.

not the medical guidelines from the experts of a country of 60 million raises the immediate question to "who chooses the experts?" and "what country". Is the position democratically elected or by appointment? Is the subject a minority group the government is internationally known to mistreat? You repeat the point, You cannot dismiss an entire democracy of 60 million people. It is outrageously offensive, but I am not "dismissing" an "entire democracy" as you put it, I am saying we need to consider all RS, including those saying a country's government and medical institutions have a bad track record with certain human rights. On that last note, I'm somewhat confused, are you arguing 1) that the UK Government and NHS haven't been internationally criticized for their treatment of trans people or 2) that they have but it holds absolutely no weight to the discussion?

On a final note (and any conversation has gone to far off the rails when I'm defending Florida), Florida is a democracy of 23 million people, was it outrageously offensive when I noted their track record and the fact their medical recommendations were political in that specific situation? Or is it only a problem when the UK's government is questioned? Which governmental medical organizations are OK to question as due and when? Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 20:39, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The UN also leveled criticisms of the UK govt for its treatment of trans people. [2] Snokalok (talk) 07:21, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

_{peanut gallery comment}I don't think mockery is a good solution here, and I don't think an Arbcom case based on the observation that UK politics is notoriously opposed to trans healthcare is warranted either. I think the statement attributed to SBM can be removed, but I think provided there are secondary sources, mentioning the FOI request is fair game, and it looks like SBM might count as a secondary source here. Whether that goes to notability seems like a matter for WP:RSN and not WP:ARBCOM to me. I think Xoreaster's !vote on the New York Post RfC might be helpful in that regard. --Licks-rocks (talk) 16:53, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

peanut gallery comment #2 It's very easily sourceable that the US is in fact better on trans issues than the UK. Admittedly, the US has gotten worse on this issue recently, but it's still the case that there are many places in the US where you can change your legal sex to nonbinary, which is not the case and has never been the case in the UK, as just one illustrative example. It's also, obviously, the case that it's way easier to get puberty blockers if you are a trans kid in the US than in the UK, and that US medical authorities are much more likely to recommend them in the US and the UK. The US press is also way more trans-friendly in the US then in the UK and if you don't believe me compare the coverage of trans issues in the New York Times to the Times of London. There's also plenty of direct sources on this point which have been brought up before; in short there's really no argument on this point.

I also think that taking YFNS to any forum for a topic ban over a bog-standard content dispute is so ridiculously tendentious that I would argue hard for a boomerang. Loki (talk) 22:16, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(talk page stalker) Colin, NICE reviews are not beyond reproach. Yes we consider them high on the MEDRS pyramid, but they can also be seriously flawed, and they can be wrong. In 2015 they were criticised for allowing political interference from the Department of Health in Westminster to remove certain references from its Dementia, disability and frailty in later life guideline, and as far as I can tell, no reforms to prevent future political interference took place. In 2017 a coalition of 35 health organisations found that draft guidance on adult depression was "not fit for purpose and, if published, would seriously impede the care of millions of people with depression in the UK". The paper by Cal Horton that YFNS linked in a reply above goes into a reasonable amount of detail about the criticisms made against the 2021 review into puberty blockers.

Threatening an editor with a topic ban because they are making hyperbolic comparisons based on strong reliably sourced criticisms of a country for their woeful human rights track record on a related topic is kinda an overreaction my friend. Now I agree those comparisons are wholly unhelpful and inappropriate to that discussion. YFNS' argument would be significantly stronger if she were instead sticking to the relevant sources and she should reflect upon that. I also think that the repeated invocations of FRINGE are not helpful, because while NICE can make mistakes, can release clinically bad guidance, and can be subject to external political pressure from the sitting government to change their guidance, without high quality sources making those points they are not something that we can really consider when drafting content.

But when it comes to lowering the temperature of that discussion, invoking Godwin as you've done here, or telling editors who are making arguments based on reliable sources that they should write a blog, I don't think is going to have the desired effect. I think everyone here would do well to reflect how they're approaching discussions on that talk page, and how they could change their approach to lower tensions and redirect it back to focusing on the content and directly relevant sources. Sideswipe9th (talk) 01:51, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn't the editor who compared the UK to Putin's Russia. No process is perfect and any health judgements that affect a population, especially one with a strong activist base is going to receive criticism from someone who is disappointed or disagrees. That's a healthy sign and entirely normal. It's how science and medicine work. And I'm sure there are criticisms of WPATH you just forgot to mention. On Wikipedia we absolutely have to rise above the level of Twitter nonsense where the clinical guidelines of a major liberal democracy are tarnished by xenophobic comments. Particularly not from someone based in the US, glass houses and all that. And no the US really is not better. These poll results are not greatly different to the UK.

It is not, absolutely not, the job of editors here to conduct original research on whether NICE or WPATH or any other consensus guidelines are correct or flawed or whatever. You can, I can see you can, do better, by citing sources that make the case for and against these guidelines. Doing it with xenophobic nonsense about the UK is not acceptable. At all. I really hope that is clear. -- 08:33, 20 March 2024 (UTC) Colin°^Talk 08:33, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You really come off as insulted about your national pride here. I hope that's not the intent. But yes we are absolutely required to evaluate a source's reliability critically in any situation! WP:RSN is one of our most heavily trafficked noticeboards for good reason. C'mon man, it's basic knowledge that the place for source quality discussions is the talk page and that those discussions do not count as OR. I'm not doing you the indignity of citing the guideline, since I'm not entirely sure you didn't contribute to writing it.

Also, I think it's pretty well established that most of the UK's alleged transphobia is coming from the establishment there, not the population. [3]

See also: our own articles on the subject --Licks-rocks (talk) 09:02, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well for a start, I'm Scottish, which hasn't restricted puberty blockers to clinical trials, though does have similar problems to E&W with infinite waiting lists. And I'm not really into national pride and cringe when any politician claims there's such a thing as "British values" when that politician's values ain't mine.

If you read the Puberty blocker article, you'll see other European nations have taken similar approaches. Are you going to start digging up xenophobic dirt on all those countries too. And what are you going to do when the orange bloke gets elected in November? Am I really going to see YFNS saying that now we have to deprecate WPATH as a source because it is based in the US, or will they not do that because they agree with WPATH?

The idea that we might deprecate NICE because it is for E&W is laughable and offensive. I'm well aware of RSN and we can't even deprecate The Telegraph, despite it posting anti-trans stories several times every day, so no. Please take NICE to the RSN and I'll bring popcorn. -- Colin°^Talk 10:21, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll take it to RSN and accept the ANI case resulting from that WP:POINT edit if you can link me to one instance about which we'll both agree that anyone, either here or in the [discussion on Puberty blocker] has said that NICE should be deprecated prior to 10:21, 20 March 2024 (UTC). That's how confident I am that it did not happen. --Licks-rocks (talk) 10:52, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The green text I quoted above. -- 10:57, 20 March 2024 (UTC) Colin°^Talk 10:57, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't even see where you think the call for deprecation is supposed to be in that segment. --Licks-rocks (talk) 11:02, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's convenient for you. -- Colin°^Talk 11:04, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:OR doesn’t apply to talk pages, they say that explicitly. Snokalok (talk) 12:30, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Snokalok, I didn't say "WP:OR", I said "original research", which was my disparaging opinion of the utterly novel and offensive idea of questioning whether NICE meets MEDRS by comparing the UK to Putin's Russia. -- Colin°^Talk 14:11, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

::::::::I mean, see point 1) from the second comment in this thread. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ --Licks-rocks (talk) 11:33, 20 March 2024 (UTC)_{comment struck (and originally removed!) by --Licks-rocks (talk) 15:17, 20 March 2024 (UTC)}[reply]

Yes, they fully support "inclusion" of the NICE review, relegated to the criticism section, where they can, in front of our readers, discredit it with insinuations about the authors. And use the talk page as a forum to disparage the UK's record on trans rights, and thus discredit anything anyone in the UK says about trans issues that they disagree with. And the text I quoted in green was in response to If the purpose of that sentence is to attempt to undermine a MEDRS source because it may have been written by a baddie, that’s even worse. and NICE are specifically named on WP:MEDRS as an example of widely respected governmental and quasi-governmental health authorities. Your attempt to redefine this as WP:FRINGE is misplaced. The whole purpose of that discussion is to discredit NICE as a source for whether puberty blockers are an evidence-based effective/safe therapy. Except, outside of I'm guessing some little twitter bubble, NICE's reputation is intact, as is the UK's reputation for evidence based medicine, which is world leading. Reputation is about the long term and multiple cases. This is what matters on Wikipedia. Editors cannot come here with their own opinions about what is the right or wrong treatment for one particular medical issue, and because they think X is wrong on this one matter, claim X's reputation must be bad, because, you know, Putin. That's not how "reliable sources" works. -- Colin°^Talk 14:11, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

thus discredit anything anyone in the UK where am I doing this????? A government != every british person... When I said the Florida medical board was politically appointed, was I criticizing a government and it's institutions or literally ever Floridian????

yes, they fully support "inclusion" of the NICE review, relegated to the criticism section - care to strike that? I explicitly supported moving it from the criticism section days ago [4]. I didn't put it in that section, but if you want to blame me for that go ahead I guess...

as is the UK's reputation for evidence based medicine except in trans healthcare, an internationally recognized problem...

Per the greentext you quoted. Florida's board of health said trans healthcare has no evidence. When we mention that, we mention the board was appointed by Ron DeSantis. We don't remove any and all political context sourced to RS because it might make them look less credible. I also think you missed that I removed MEDRS criticism sourced to SBM and have only argued we should use them for non-medical information in the article.[5]

Editors cannot come here with their own opinions about what is the right or wrong treatment for one particular medical issue,... You do realize I oppose the use of puberty blockers for trans youth in all but rare circumstances, right? But there's a difference between my own opinions and the international consensus, which supports them. One flawed review (and that's the opinion of multiple international medical organizations) doesn't change international consensus about whether puberty blockers should be used for trans youth. If I was editing by my opinion and not RS, the article would be a lot more critical of their use for trans minors.

Please friend, this is all shadowboxing. You're blaming me for things I didn't do, attributing opinions to me that are opposite my actual ones, and attributing xenophobia to me as if I'm saying literally all british people are unreliable on trans topics always and not we should consider the UK government's track record on trans rights and healthcare when writing about their recommendations. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 14:39, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relegated to the "UK" section then. Still relegated. Have you read the Council of Europe report? Don't recall it even mentioning trans healthcare. -- Colin°^Talk 14:42, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually it does give a brief mention, wrt some activists claims "Trans healthcare is also being erroneously portrayed as a form of LGB conversion therapy" and delays (though there are delays throughout mental health matters on the NHS). But these are matters for the individuals making such claims, not a report saying UK's healthcare is deliberately anti-trans and puberty blockers are being banned/restricted because hate. It is utterly irrelevant to our discussion as are references to Putin's Russia. -- Colin°^Talk 15:08, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

still relegated There is a separate discussion on how to include them in the lead, and I also supported including it there [6]. The criticism section was a recent addition (please, reflect on the Bipartisan nature of both me and Void agreeing it shouldn't be there), and it makes sense the UK guidelines would go in *checks notes* the section on UK guidelines. Still shadowboxing - I have pushed more for including the NICE report on that talk page than you have and you keep trying to argue I'm deprecating or relegating it...

The report says It is also becoming increasingly difficult for individuals and organisations to publicly affirm young trans people without being subject to hostility and disproportionate questioning from wider society, [the GC campaign] has been instrumental in creating a situation in which legal gender recognition processes still require a clinical diagnosis of gender dysphoria, and remain inaccessible to non-binary people and anyone under 18., There is also a concerning, growing account of parents who (due to difficulties in accessing timely public health care) pursue private health care on behalf of their child, being investigated by State authorities., Trans healthcare is also being erroneously portrayed as a form of LGB conversion therapy. The TLDR, the UK is not respecting the rights of transgender youth, making it difficult for them to access timely care and investigating those who get it through other means, and making ridiculous statements about trans healthcare. It also calls on member states to protect legal gender recognition, the bodily integrity of intersex people, the protection of rainbow families, access to trans-specific healthcare

For kicks, here's the UN report[7] which repeatedly mentions the harmful effects of lack of gender-affirming care for transgender youth in the U.K. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 15:10, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm well aware of the problems accessing transgender clinics in the UK. There are problems accessing childhood mental health facilities full stop. A record 1.4 million children and young people sought NHS help for mental health problems last year and 400,000 children are on waiting lists for health treatment. And as for general societal attitudes or statements from the more deranged ministers, the US is awful too. And your likely next president promises to lock up anyone providing gender affirming health care for children, branding it child abuse. Really, this "your liberal democracy is worse than my liberal democracy" stuff is a terrible argument. These kinds of documents are lists of faults and one can make lists of faults for really any country if one looks seriously. And one doesn't have to look hard at all for the US. -- Colin°^Talk 18:52, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I very firmly second Licks-rocks saying You really come off as insulted about your national pride here. I can't see any other point to this sort of whataboutism. Loki (talk) 20:06, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you want criticisms of WPATH, I have so many I don't even half RS for half of them (deadass, if you want to know, start a new talk page section and I'll just start listing the reasons I personally dislike them). I've actually been planning to update WPATH to include the reliably sourced ones for weeks. But, they are in no way beholden to the US government so that's a criticism that doesn't make sense. And poll results are immaterial (though they shouldn't be) to the actions of legislators. clinical guidelines of a major liberal democracy are tarnished by xenophobic comments They haven't actually released clinical guidelines. As a friend, I'm telling you you're shadowboxing a point I never made: The idea that we might deprecate NICE. I support inclusion of the report (and, it is a single review that was criticized by leading health organizations for ignoring relevant evidence, not an official guideline as you keep referring to it as). Questioning its weight in relation to other sources does not mean I am calling for removing it from the article, much less deprecating it.

The original thread that brought you here was entirely about can we include "a FOI request was denied". It was never should we include the NICE report because nobody is arguing we shouldn't. You've now left multiple comments on my talk page about the NICE report, and not the actual thing that thread was discussing (the FOI request).

you'll see other European nations have taken similar approaches. Please point me to the other European country saying RCTs are needed for puberty blockers? Only the UK has called for those, which is silly as even every other study in their report explicitly noted how unethical and infeasible those are. I actually had to spent a fair bit of time fixing up the PB article because it was full of misinformation portraying countries as banning care when they hadn't and their national medical organizations fully endorse it. The U.K.s treatment of transgender people continues to be a medical outlier internationally.

* CLARIFICATION (17:51, 20 March 2024 (UTC)): I've already gotten a confused DM about my stance on puberty blockers so I'll explain. International consensus is that puberty blockers are safe and effective for blocking puberty. Not just for trans kids, for kids in general. That's what they do. They work better than placebos. International consensus for the treatment of transgender youth usually recommends they be given puberty blockers after Tanner stage 2, until they're considered old enough to consent to hormones (globally usually ~16 years old). This is because they prevent further dysphoria (and permanent dysphoria) due to the development of secondary sex characteristics. I am opposed to the use of puberty blockers not because I think they're unsafe (they safely block puberty, they're internationally prescribed for that), but because I do not believe it is ethical that cisgender youth can start puberty at their leisure while trans kids, if they're lucky enough to get blockers, will spend the ages of 12-16 being told "yes, cis kids your age are going through puberty, and we believe you're trans, but you might change your mind so just keep waiting to start puberty, but hey this is better than forcing you through the wrong puberty right". Trans kids' puberties are blocked instead of changed because they might be cis, yet it would be self-evidently ridiculous to call for blocking cis kids' puberties in case they might be trans - there is a double standard and categorical denial of autonomy in how they prescribed and ideally I wouldn't want them in trans healthcare except for as requested (by questioning youth) on a short-term basis.

Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 14:11, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've already addressed the nuance between "include" and "accept" or even "acknowledge" as one of the significant opinions. Repeated claims that NICE are WP:FRINGE is not conducive to a longterm editing career. Please stop this. You know the rules, you've recovered from a ban already.

You can read the article as well as I can. A view that puberty blockers lack good evidence and should be treated with varying degrees of caution is "typical" in Europe. How to resolve that problem is a matter for clever people, not Wikipedian's or twitterati. -- Colin°^Talk 14:40, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am not saying NICE is fringe. I am saying the UK Government's treatment of transgender people's healthcare is fringe.

A view that puberty blockers lack [GRADE high-quality evidence] and should be treated with varying degrees of caution is "typical" everywhere. WPATH says the same. Nobody denies that more research is needed. Nobody denies we're basing it on observational studies instead of the normally more rigourous RCTs. But only the UK is calling for RCTs.

How to resolve that problem is a matter for clever people, not Wikipedian's or twitterati - And those clever people, such as those the NICE report reviewed, WPATH, EPATH, etc, have said the way you're proposing to do it is highly unethical. Only the UK has proposed the problem be resolved that way. RCTs are not unethical according to my opinion as a wikipedian, it's scientific consensus from decades of research into the topic (and, notably, they are even considered unethical for precocious puberty). Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 14:49, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Your comments at 18:15, 17 March 2024 (UTC) on Talk:Puberty blocker explicitly say that SBM are relevant on FRINGE matters, and there you are claiming "anti-trans "experts" like SEGM and co" and "the fact they may have been the one to write the [NICE] review".

Please read WP:FRINGE. You are losing me a bit. Is this NICE report with possibly dodgy authors saying PB lack evidence or insisting RCTs as the only means of accessing them? Perhaps you are conflating two arguments.

The healthcare approach of an entire liberal democratic stable country cannot possibly be FRINGE. The UK has approaches towards cancer therapy that are unique and involve trials, research, secret discounts, limitations on cost and so on. Other countries may strongly disagree with some of those. People disagree. The difficulties of organising trials are well discussed. Trans health is not unique in having such problems and believe me they get resolved if there is willing to do so. Scotland decided minimum prices for alcohol was a good approach to reducing health effects in its population and many other countries do not do that. Doesn't make Scotland's approach to alcohol WP:FRINGE.

Can you at least agree that your argument-per-Putin was unacceptable and will not be repeated. -- Colin°^Talk 15:24, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

1) The NICE report says PBs lack evidence using modified GRADE, they did not use all available evidence, just some of it, placing a premium on an unethical type of evidence (RCTs).

2) The Cass Review called for RCTs based on the NICE report which they commissioned

3) My argument with SBM was thus (please specify which point in my chain of reasoning is flawed)

• 1) GIVEN: MEDRS says the normal RS rules apply to non-medical information even in medical articles
• 2) GIVEN: SBM is considered generally reliable, particularly for reporting on FRINGE groups
• 3) GIVEN: SBM reported the fact that the FOI was denied, and raised concerns SEGM & co (known FRINGE groups) were involved
• 4) THEREFORE: We can use SBM for the following non-medical information

• 1) A FOI request was denied
• 2) SBM raised concerns fake experts may have been consulted

• 5) As can is separate from should, whether or not we include it is based on discussion of weight. Given the UK's track record discussed, and the fact NHS was inviting conversion therapy advocates to speak at panels just about 2 years ago [8], I believe it should be.

4) The healthcare approach of an entire liberal democratic stable country cannot possibly be FRINGE. - And yet, in the case of Florida, The healthcare approach of an entire liberal democratic stable state of 23 million can be WP:FRINGE. The GOP plan is to federally ban trans healthcare in 2025 on this side of the pond, and when they do, it'll still be medically FRINGE. Many liberal democracies require trans people be sterilized to change their ID, this is considered FRINGE from an international human rights and medical consensus. Nowhere, in all of WP:MEDRS, does it say a healthcare approach stops being FRINGE as long as 1 country endorses it. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 16:01, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I feel like, after this much explanation, we're solidly in aspersions territory with the things you claim were said in that discussion that weren't, Colin. I see you've placed back the comment I removed in order to reply to it. I would ask you not to mess with my comments again going forward, especially not without telling me you've done so! If I remove them, that's my choice. I thought replying to you would lead to more wasted editor time, and I was right. And for the record: No, I do not, in fact, have a twitter account. (addition after edit conflict:) Anyway, you'll be forced to agree that it being placed in a different section from where you'd like it is quite a far cry from being deprecated. --Licks-rocks (talk) 15:17, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The "aspersions " are per-Putin. That's my primary complaint. -- 15:24, 20 March 2024 (UTC) Colin°^Talk 15:24, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I apologize for the hyperbolic comparison to Russia which obviously inflamed the discussion. I should have noted the Florida example from the beginning as much more relevant and that was my mistake. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 15:31, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank-you. That really is what provoked this, as though the UK was as bad as Putin's Russia. The UK is bad. The US is bad. Lots of other EU countries are bad too if one bothers to look, plenty with far right or populist governments. Outside of that, is really really really bad. -- Colin°^Talk 18:55, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No problem. To clarify though, my original use of that comparison (while inadvisably hyperbolic) was not to say they're as bad as each other (and I regret it coming off that way), because the UK is certainly far ahead of Russia in terms of LGBT treatment. It was to highlight that we can and do take political situations into account all the time when weighing medical organizations by pointing to an obvious, if extreme, example. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 19:26, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think you need to be much more careful if you are going to go down the approach of "take political situation into account". Firstly, that Council of Europe thing is shite, steaming shite, if you, as an American (I assume from your location) are going to make comments about doctors and healthcare regulators in the UK, and why something from the UK "shouldn't give a lot of weight" simply because it is from the UK. To begin with, it is a document by an LGBTI (I'm using his label choice) activist whose purpose is to demonstrate the existence and increase in hate towards this group.... in Europe. So it is rather convenient, for your purpose that it doesn't analyse the US. If I do a quick Google, I find 53 transgender people were killed last year (2022) and globally 320 trans people killed in 2023 (look at the map on that page, compare US with UK) and I can't find stats for the UK as all the news is dominated by one death, but this factcheck from 2018 has one, on average. And it isn't like the US is 53 times bigger than the UK. And that's just one aspect of hate crime. My point really is if someone asked Fourat Ben Chikha to document the rise of trans (or wider LGBTI) hate in the USA, he'd likely produce something that made the UK look tame, and would be pages long rather than one long paragraph in a big document.

But also, neither such document would be entirely fair. Because they are lists of bad things, and one can produce lists of bad things on almost anything. I'm not saying they aren't real bad things but this approach has problems. I could, for example, produce a list of crimes and threatening behaviour conducted by Muslims in the Greater London area. And such a list could well be used by some right-wing commentator to feed into their conspiracy theories about there being no-go areas in London and having a Muslim mayor means we are all living under Islamic law. There are limitations to "lists of bad things compiled by someone who went specifically looking for those bad things and not other bad things and not any good things". I'm sure you are aware of those hate websites where people make lists of crimes committed by trans women, with the idea of generating fear of all trans women. Such an approach to statistics has big limitations.

But regardless of how one generates an "opinion that a country is bad", doing so in a way that appears to group a set of people into a homogeneous negative characteristic is intrinsically offensive. The obvious examples are all the -isms and phobias. But it can happen for countries too. Many people in the UK look at US and your politics, whether its school shootings, or half the country worshipping Trump, and think you are all completely bonkers. And in a light hearted way that's perhaps ok, but if one started to take that attitude seriously, it's really hateful. Can you imagine if I proposed you be topic banned solely because of what country you were from?

If you have direct RS evidence that the UK government (which is clearly anti-trans and well documented to be) interfered with NICE reports then that is one thing. But a Council of Europe list of woe, which you then use to say we "shouldn't give a lot of weight" to a review "from a country a Council of Europe report found to have a human rights problem" is an offensive way of tackling RS issues. Btw, the "Minister for Equalities" that the CoE document mentions is Liz Truss, which most people in the UK regard in a similar light to Trump. I'm sure most doctors in the US don't think injecting people with bleach or horse medicines is a good treatment for Covid, so why should the fact that Truss believes mad stuff and says offensive stuff have any relevance as to whether medical professionals in the UK are capable of analysing evidence based medicine. Don't group people like that. If there's a direct political link with evidence, then fine, but don't group people into nations as though we are all as bonkers as Truss. -- Colin°^Talk 08:32, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• I should clarify that "in a similar light to Trump" doesn't mean half the UK worship her. I mean we mock her with comparisons to lettuce and her infamous speech about cheese. She's off the scale, is what I mean. -- Colin°^Talk 09:02, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Mathglot I've had a fair bit of time to work on Template:Regional articles in the last few days. I got the notes handled (doc's updated to match)! But, I'm now stuck on a bug I was hoping you could help me with regarding languages (hence the name of this section lol).

If you check out Template:Regional articles, you can see that there's a Template loop error where the languages should be. What this should look like is at Template:Regional articles/row. Template:Article info uses a Template:for nowiki loop (through Template:For loop delimited) to generate the language links (Template:Regional articles/row/col passes the default languages per region as I defined in Template:Regional articles/config). However, this is giving a template loop error as the Regional articles template uses a for nowiki loop to generate the rows for each region. I think there should be a way to get nested for loops working, but idk where to start, I spent a few hours trying to fix it last night without any luck. Any thoughts? (question also open to talk page stalkers good with templating) Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 13:27, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Quick tip before I even look at this: I was bedeviled by a template loop recently; you can see my struggles with it at {{Aad}} in these 7 edits. I even wrote Draft:RecursionTester trying to understand it. (I'm done with that tester; feel free to play/alter it as you wish.) It turns out some of the doc at WP:TEMPLATELOOPs was misleading or wrong; I rewrote it here. I'll have a look at your issue, but the way I fixed mine was to use a subtemplate instead; the 'show all' feature of {{Aad}} cannot reside in Aad itself, so I just created {{Aad/all}} purely to resolve the recursion issue. Maybe something like that could work for you? I'll have a look. Mathglot (talk) 19:21, 20 March 2024 (UTC) And I forgot about Draft:Recur-A and Draft:Recur-B, too. Mathglot (talk) 19:30, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You're aware that even indirect recursion is out, right? A calls B calls C calls A is out. Mathglot (talk) 20:33, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I was able to fix it! {{For nowiki}} just calls a lua module tied to the page, so I made {{For nowiki2}} which calls the same and thus sidesteps the issue of recursing templates by them technically being different. I was thinking of making it a subtemplate of {{Regional articles}}, but I thought others might find it useful in the same bind. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 20:44, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You beat me to it. I was just starting to analyze it, starting from simpler steps (ie., one data column and |region_list=Argentina) but already had it in the back of my mind to suggest exactly what you just did, namely, clone the repeatedly called template. I'd add some kind of note that it should be kept in sync with the original (although, maybe it doesn't have to be, if the cloned piece does what you want, and you don't care about whatever changes happen to the original?). Anyway, glad you managed to fix it! Mathglot (talk) 22:43, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just wanted to say I've been browsing through the talk pages of a lot of transgender related pages and have seen you're name come up a lot. Your comments seem to always be useful and insightful. Having seen what you had to go through with the ban I wanted you to know I admire your fortitude and resilience as well as your dedication to making sure that Wikipedia pages accurately represent anti-trans groups and individuals. Your presence on Wikipedia has truly bettered my life. LunaHasArrived (talk) 16:25, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! That means a lot. I feel twinges of nostalgia for my old username quite often seeing it around lol. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 17:14, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You've been trouted! After making some changes to {{Translation request}} some weeks back and discovering that substing was broken due to upstream unsubsted template {{Sitelink}}, I hesitated to change Sitelink because I had never worked on it and only recently seen it for the first time. Eventually, after waiting a while, I did make some changes to subst-protect it so the {{Translation request}} would work properly substed, and all looked good. At least, for a while.

Today, I made some changes to {{Dual fluency}}, and once again, there was a subst problem traceable to {{Sitelink}}. It looked like I had missed subst-protecting one #if statement, so I went ahead and fixed that one, too, feeling rather abashed that I had missed one last time around, thinking I had tested it properly the first time, but apparently not. Upon further reflection, wondering how that one had snuck through, I had another look at {{Sitelink}} again. Turns out, my earlier update to add subst-protection was good, but another editor came along afterward and made an update to the code to add a new parameter, 'shortlinked', and neglected to subst-protect it. My subsequent edit and "Oops" comment blaming myself turns out to have been misplaced. Wh-a-a-a-c-c-c-k! You've been whacked by a wet trout! Mathglot (talk) 08:19, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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