Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Cla68

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Mathsci (talk) 02:57, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested

Cla68 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

WP:ARBR&I: [1] Cla68 (talk · contribs) is indefinitely prohibited from commenting on, or interacting with, Mathsci (talk · contribs), broadly construed, anywhere on Wikipedia, per AE thread.

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. [2]
2. [3]

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I accept the closing advice, as summarised by Future Perfect at Sunrise, for how to handle these matters, if they ever arise in the future. I have asked him to clarify whether by "private communication" he means by wiki-email or on a user talk page. Either or both is fine. Mathsci (talk) 18:24, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion concerning Cla68

Statement by Cla68

Admins, could you please do something about this? I think this is the third or fourth enforcement action Mathsci has filed against me. Do you need the links? Admins User:Timotheus Canens and User:Future Perfect at Sunrise, I'm especially interested in what you have to say. You helped make this mess. Cla68 (talk) 03:12, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

My comment was referring to Mathsci and to whoever this banned editor is that he has been fighting all over Wikipedia for the last three years. They are both clearly obsessed with their pursuit of each other, so much so that Mathsci was, by his own admission, dueling with this guy from a hospital bed. As far as I'm aware, I'm allowed to comment on the subject in related dispute resolution forums such as here, ArbCom admendments, and ArbCom case requests, etc. If I'm not, then that's news to me. Cla68 (talk) 03:47, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Admins, if you look at Mathsci's contribution history over the last few months, you will see that 90%~ are dedicated to sock puppet investigations, blocking IPs, and filing AE requests or AN notices against editors or admins who comment negatively on his behavior in pursuit of this (admittedly real) boogeyman. In my opinion, your actions in the past have facilitated or encouraged Mathsci's behavior. Could you please do something to stop it, at least as far as it is affecting other editors? Cla68 (talk) 04:50, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Future Perfect, you're an admin and this is your interpretation of the rules? Good grief. To say that I'm not allowed to comment on the complaining editor in the AE thread he opens against me is one of the craziest things I think I've seen one of Wikipedia's administrators utter, and I've seen a lot of foolishness in my six years of participation in this shite shindig. I notice that one of the admins below has said that Mathsci is now "trying his patience." Imagine how it must feel for the rest of us who have gotten in the way of the Mathsci steamroller, including Nyttend and Collect, as well as myself. Notice, Future Perfect, that you were the one who "warned" Collect because he objected to Mathsci's obsessive behavior. You helped create this monster, Future Perfect, and to try defend your bad decision-making you threaten to block me? Future Perfect, compare mine and Mathsci's editing contributions for the past month. Just do it, then explain which editor is doing what they're supposed to be doing, and which editor you should be helping instead of threatening. Again, good grief. You have made some really bad decisions on this issue. Will you insist on making more? Cla68 (talk) 07:19, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by others about the request concerning Cla68

As an administrator who doesn't frequent AE I'm commenting here. It would have been better if Mathsci hadn't filed this request. It would also have been better if Cla68 hadn't responded to this request.

Cla68 is of course entitled to comment on Arb motions that name him as an affected party, but that doesn't mean he has carte blanche to make snarky comments against Mathsci, especially ones that refer to medical conditions. As far as I can see, Mathsci's editing affects Cla68 only insofar as Cla68 chooses to make it an issue. If Cla68 would decide to ignore Mathsci's posts to Arbspace, and ignore Mathsci's removal of sock posts, would there be an issue? Similarly, if Mathsci would decide to ignore Cla68's posts to Arbspace, annoying as they may be, would there be a problem? --Akhilleus (talk) 05:55, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As Akhilleus says. Both Mathsci and Cla68 are at fault here. Mathsci shouldn't cry foul about edits in unbanning requests, and Cla68 shouldn't use every opportunity to publicize his opinions about Mathsci. --Enric Naval (talk) 12:31, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@Mathsci. They don't need to modify the ban, it's implied by default in all bans, and this type of exception is mentioned in WP:IBAN#Exceptions_to_limited_bans. Mathsci, your interpretation of bans is too restrictive, you are hurting you own position.

@Cla68. General comments about how other editors are not helpful. You are supposed to explain how you don't deserve an iban. --Enric Naval (talk) 12:37, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

From all the solutions available, Fut.Perf's solution seems the most likely to reduce drama and collateral damage. Hopefully Mathsci will take the lue and he will stop reacting to Cla68's comments. --Enric Naval (talk) 19:55, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Cla68 can comment in arbitration amendment about him, and Mathsci suppose to know it, given his experience. Therefore, this request by Mathsci is inappropriate use of one-way interaction ban with Cla68. Of course if this request by Mathsci was legitimate, that would be a completely different matter. The only reasonable solution is to make this interaction ban mutual because one-way interaction ban is obviously not working. Sorry, I am not really familiar with history of the conflict My very best wishes (talk) 14:51, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Mathsci now withdrew his request. However, filing this request will have negative consequences for people who asked to lift their sanctions at arbitration page (including Cla68). I guess none of their sanctions will now be lifted. I am not sure if it was Mathsci intention, but this actually worked. My very best wishes (talk) 20:38, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by uninvolved A Quest for Knowledge

I've been watching this sorry mess for the last few months with dismay, and this constant disruption needs to end. Sadly, this RfE is another example of Mathsci's battleground conduct. I don't know if this is best handled at AE or by ArbCom, but I don't see how this is going to end without a topic ban for Mathsci and an extension of the 1 way interaction bans to both ways. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:53, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Cla68

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• Cla68, for clarity, are you denying that the comment in question was in regards to MathSci? If so, an explanation of what its intent was would be very helpful. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 03:43, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm in general agreement with T. Canens, after reviewing the surrounding context. It would be extremely rare to prohibit someone from appealing sanctions against them (in fact, I know of no such case where that has ever been done), and comments in the context of an appeal in the proper venue (which ArbCom is one of, for an AE sanction) is broadly and generally considered an exception to a topic or interaction ban, since disallowing the sanctioned editor from discussing the matter in the appeal would essentially prohibit them from appealing at all. What are they going to say? "I'm appealing something I can't name, on grounds I can't discuss"? This is essentially a frivolous request given that, and I would support the restrictions proposed on future enforcement requests. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 04:30, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Erm...FPAS, you went ahead and blocked? That seems a bit off to me too. I think given the disagreement here, we should've discussed it some more before applying any sanctions. I don't intend to unilaterally reverse you, or anything like that, but perhaps a bit slower on the trigger? Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 07:44, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • The block was only for his actions right here during this thread, i.e. this [4] posting in direct defiance of my immediately preceding warning [5]. It's not meant to prejudge the overall outcome of this thread. But now that another editor has actually removed that last offending post, I have no problem with unblocking him again, as long as he agrees to keep it off. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:47, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • I'd unblock him anyway, seeing as there's absolutely no consensus here for your actions—or any consensus to remove that comment, considering the positions of Seraphim and Timotheus—but that's just me. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 07:50, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
          • FPAS, now that the comment has been restored by others rather than by Cla68, do you have any objection to an unblock? Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 08:17, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
            • I'd like to first hear him commit to respecting the spirit of the interaction ban during these proceedings. He can of course comment on any proposed sanctions and defend himself, but he cannot make accusatory comments about Mathsci that go beyond this narrow scope. Since it wasn't Mathsci but Cla himself who first chose to interact with the other party in this instance, he cannot cite a generalized "right of response" as if it was a waiver of the interaction ban. An AE thread is not a self-produced get-out-of-jail-free card. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:21, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
            • To answer to your concrete question: (If they are still bound to the interaction ban, then) "what are they going to say?" Well, he could of course have said (in the Amendmend thread): "Yes, I believe our restrictions should be lifted, because I don't think they are achieving anything and I don't plan on pursuing any conflict with the other parties anyway." Or, he could of course have said (in this thread): "I was only commenting on an Arbcom page, which I believed was exempt from my restriction, so I don't think this was a violation". What he did instead say were things like: Mathsci is obsessive, Mathsci has not been making encyclopedic contributions, Mathsci's behaviour is a monster, etc. No, he is not entitled to say things like that, not here, not at Arbcom, nowhere, and he needs to stop. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:50, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
              • I can see where you're coming from, as far as right of reply not being a carte blanche, but I also see that line being very difficult to draw. I'm especially hesitant there in the case of one-way interaction bans, where the conduct of the other party might necessitate a modification of the sanction. (Not saying that's the case here necessarily, just as a general principle.) I'm also very hesitant for AE to get involved with cases of conduct at ArbCom. ArbCom and the clerks are perfectly capable of warning, sanctioning, refactoring/redacting, etc., if someone gets out of line there, and I don't think getting AE involved is either necessary or helpful in such a case. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 09:09, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
                • I'm afraid I must contradict you about the point of Arbcom being able to police their own pages. Of course, yes, they ought to be able to do so. But experience shows they never do. Clerks feel afraid of "censoring" participants, and arbs usually reserve their intervention until their final judgment, and leave participants to fend for themselves until that point. Arbcom is notoriously incompetent at preventing its own pages from becoming uncontrolled mud-fests. As for the difficulty of drawing the line, yes, the exact line may be difficult to draw, but there can be no doubt in my mind that wherever the line is, "ongoing, personal, years-long feud between an obsessive, established Wikipedia editor and an obsessive, established banned editor" was beyond that line. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:24, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
                  • In that last sentence what is it that takes it over that line? Other than the characterisation of "obsessive" I don't see anything apart from fact. I'd probably skirt around directly calling Mathsci obsessive, but his actions do have the appearance of obsession about these trolls. The vast majority of his recent interaction seems to relate to them - and this is in the middle of a serious illness, which was able to tear him away from much of his other editing but not this. Which is what is most deeply concerning, and the core reason I think the one remainign portion of this issue is Mathsci himself. --Errant ^(chat!) 12:23, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
                    • Is that characterization as "obsessive" not enough to stamp it as beyond the line? It's a personal attack, period. Cla68 is prohibited from commenting about Mathsci, period. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:09, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• I can't speak for Fut. Perf., but my patience is wearing thin. The amendment request at issue does request that Cla68's interaction ban be lifted. Cla68 is therefore allowed to comment in that thread unimpeded by the interaction ban. (I voice no opinion about the accuracy of Cla68's characterization of the overall situation, as that is irrelevant to the question whether the interaction ban applies.) Moreover, AE generally does not interfere in arbcom's own pages.

  I think Mathsci's enforcement requests are doing more harm than good, and I propose that we direct him

  1. to seek enforcement of the interaction bans at issue arising out of edits on any page whose title begins with Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests only from arbcom clerks or arbcom itself, and not from any other venue, including AE; and,
  2. to not seek enforcement of the interaction bans at issue arising out of edits on any other page by means of an on-wiki posting, unless he has obtained permission for such posting from any uninvolved administrator by email. T. Canens (talk) 04:06, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• I have to say I disagree with my colleagues above, and I stand by the principles I have expressed elsewhere on similar matters: we must stop people from abusing Arbcom pages to circumvent their restrictions. If the community imposes interaction bans, it means: "person X is not allowed to pursue conflicts with person Y", anywhere, in any form. It does not mean: "person X is invited to escalate their conflict with Y to Arbcom". Of course Cla68 is free to comment on the idea of lifting his restriction. But he could have done so without using it as an opportunity for taking yet more cheap and unprovoked potshots against Mathsci. So, no, even when answering on an Arbcom page, he is not "free to comment in that thread unimpeded by the interaction ban". Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:37, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oh, and before I forget: to avoid another weeks-long blowup like we saw last time, this same principle goes for this thread here too. Cla68: on this page, you are allowed to talk about yourself. You are still not allowed to talk about Mathsci, and I will block you if you do (the way you did in your second and third posts in your statement above.) In return, Mathsci, please make absolutely no further posts in this thread. You've made your position clear; now please leave the rest to others. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:43, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • So, two admins comment in favor of Cla's position... and then a third admin unilaterally blocks him without consensus? I'm not an AE admin, but that seems a bit, erm, off. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 07:39, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• As I said last time, I think action is needed here to limit MathSci. Good judgement appears worryingly absent from this request, and it is time to stop the cycle of comment - AE - comment - AE. I struggled to see a firm basis for Cla68's Iban in the first place as much of his criticism of MathSci (on my examination) seemed fair - he is obsessed with these trolls and constantly feeds them. Our role as administrators is to limit disruption to Wikipedia; I think T. Canens suggestion is sensible and is the first step to take, short of active sanctions like topic bans or blocks, to try and convince Mathsci to step back. (FWIW I vaguely support the block of Cla68 for feeding fuel on the fire here too, although we shouldn't even be in this situation). --Errant ^(chat!) 09:09, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Another option, which I am considering, is asking Arbcom to look broadly at the whole Mathsci issue (harassment, IBans, admin actions et al.) in a new case as the matter is a sprawling mess and needs some tidying up. --Errant ^(chat!) 09:15, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • A new case was considered just a month or so ago, and rejected. This is just a rehashing of the same thing. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:49, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • Ok, so we should take the advice of arbitrators and, as admins with remit to protect Wikipedia from disruption, seek to end this matter for good. Which takes us back to T. Canens interesting proposal. Barring that probably a topic ban for Mathsci talking about or interacting with the banned sock on-wiki. Also a clear explanation to Cla68 that whilst commenting on the lifting of a restriction has widespread acceptance, it must be done in a seemly way. i.e. not used as a platform to lay into the other editor again. What does concern me about this is the long list of people Mathsci has managed to seek IBans against, some of whom it appears largely because they were critical of him... which is a bad precedent. It is clear to me, from reviewing significant portions of the recent history, that Mathsci is utterly unable to detach himself from this root conflict and has found a venue to very quickly silence people getting in his way. It is our responsibility as admins to end the cycle of disruption. -Errant ^(chat!) 12:18, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • Wait, now you're mixing up the issue of Mathsci seeking enforcement of the interaction bans (against other established editors such as Cla68) with that of Mathsci seeking enforcment of the ban against the sockpuppeter. Two very different things. I could agree to something along the lines of T.C.'s suggestion regarding enforcement of the topic bans, if it is coupled with the reminder to Cla68 you speak of. I certainly would object to any restrictions about anti-sock actions. The banned sockpuppeter is still very much around; reporting him and disposing of his socks has become pretty routine and noiseless, and it certainly continues to be necessary. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:29, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
          • I'm trying to take a broad spectrum here and address the core issues that are continuing to lead to problems; and that runs back to the banned sock-puppeteer. I'd agree that our first step should be to try T.C's suggestion and see if that has an effect (at least it will reduce the amount of essays we have to read through :S). But I feel that my restriction from last time (restricting Mathsci to requesting action against the banned editor only via private methods) would end all of the problems for good. A key part of the reason that banned sock is hanging around is because he is obsessed by Mathsci, and by continuing to respond to the individual Mathsci is merely persisting this interest. I suggest that without us to break him out of this cycle, even with T.C's restriction, we will be back here with more essays and more discussion. Since suffering from a severe illness Mathsci's main contributions here appear to be the contimuation of old battles, and that is something we need to address. --Errant ^(chat!) 12:49, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
            • Other alternatives; Mathsci takes a x month voluntary break from Wikipedia, which will help his recovery and possibly deter the sock. Or he takes the option of a "fresh start" to evade the sock's scrutiny. Sucks, but there are few options left. --Errant ^(chat!) 12:52, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
              • Nope, sorry, but that's an absolute non-starter. Suggesting a "voluntary" break in this context is nothing but a euphemism for a project ban, and that really means penalizing the victim and is completely out of proportion. Mathsci's actions regarding the banned sockpuppeter are not at issue in this thread at all; no disruption has occurred because of them. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:05, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
                • My sympathy for the Mathsci is limited every time I dig further into this sorry debacle. But fine, we can discuss solutions to the wider issues in a more appropriate forum at another time. I see Mathsci is back on the "feed the troll" game so I agree this should be closed out quickly with the agreed sanctions. --Errant ^(chat!) 16:31, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• I cannot agree with the notion that Arbspace should be a exempt zone from interaction bans, particularly in cases where the request in question is not an appeal of said ban. If this were a case where Cla were appealing his interaction ban, I could see a case that he needs to be allowed to mention Mathsci, but when it's another user seeking to have a topic ban lifted, there's no reason such a comment is necessary, and in this case, I can't see it as anything but potshots and an example of the very behaviour that leads to interaction bans in the first place. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 12:39, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is potshots (which I why he is at fault), but in fairness Cla68's IBan is included in the request so I would consider it reasonable for him to make a comment. --Errant ^(chat!) 12:41, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Even if he did need to make a comment about Mathsci, which I can't really see that he needed to (since he his comment didn't seem to at all address his ban, just make general comments), the way in which the comments were made seems clearly against the spirit of than ban (and, I would submit, the letter, too). I do tend to agree that there's a need for Mathsci to disengage in this case (from those who've been banned from interacting with him, not from the banned sockmaster), and that after this many requests, it may be necessary to make that happen rather than just hoping it will. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 12:53, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • On this understanding, and in the interest of reducing conflict, shall we just close this quickly? No further action, instruction to Mathsci to seek advice before making further iban enforcement requests, no-further-potshots reminder to Cla68 (WP:IBAN#Exceptions_to_limited_bans provides only for a limited exemption narrowly restricted to discussing the appealing editor's own sanction), and with that reminder I'll lift the block as being now obsolete? Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:01, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Right. In the interest of getting this over with, and (I believe) in consensus with most of the other commentators here, I'll close this as follows:

• Cla68 is reminded that he is expected to stick with the spirit of the existing interaction ban even while engaged in an Arbcom process. Per WP:IBAN#Exceptions to limited bans, he may appeal the ban and "address legitimate concerns about the ban itself", but may not use that as an opportunity for unnecessarily levelling criticism against the other party.
• Mathsci is instructed to refrain from posting further enforcement requests regarding the interaction bans in question on-wiki without prior private consultation and permission from an uninvolved adminstrator. In the case of complaints arising from edits on Arbcom pages, he is instructed to seek enforcement only from Arbcom itself or the Arbcom clerks.

Did I get that right? If somebody feels the wording should be tweaked, let me know. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:25, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Sounds good to me, with perhaps a change from "permission" from an uninvolved administrator to "agreement" or "consent" of an uninvolved administrator, because I think "permission" has a few unfortunate connotations that might be best avoided. John Carter (talk) 17:28, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Sounds good to me as well. T. Canens (talk) 18:40, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would agree to the phrasing changes suggested by John, and otherwise would agree with this as the resolution. I also would add that Mathsci should preferably contact an admin involved in this request for such approval if any are currently active, as others may not be familiar with the situation, and that if Mathsci disagrees with a refusal to provide such approval, he should privately refer the matter to ArbCom rather than contacting a different admin with the same request. Seraphimbladepublic (talk) 18:40, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]