Muhsin97233 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

WP:NOTHERE, user is on a nationalistic mission rather than improving Wikipedia. The vast majority of their (pov) edits (some direct examples [1] [2] [3] [4] [5]) have been reverted, as seen here [6][ if you Ctrl + F "reverted". They are obsessed with turning everything to anything "Arab", even spamming talk pages with their WP:SOAPBOX nonsense [7] [8] [9] [10]. This has been going on since they first started editing, in February 2022.

Their talk page is also full of warnings I have warned them multiple times, which they only addressed once with this comment (there's more in the diff); "...Conclusion We all know the English Wikipedia, most of them are run by racist Persians who falsify the facts in favor of their Persian nation..." --HistoryofIran (talk) 11:07, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

HistoryofIran, I won't comment on this as I'm not well versed in the subject, except only to point out that it's pretty misleading of you to say that "Their talk page is full of warnings", when in fact all those warnings come from you yourself. To avoid creating the wrong impression, please use the active voice in such situations, such as "I have warned them many times". Bishonen | tålk 13:00, 1 May 2023 (UTC).[reply]

You're right, my bad. I have fixed it now. --HistoryofIran (talk) 13:09, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, this is classic extremely one-sided ethnic POV-pushing. Basically, everyone of any note is Arab, not Persian or Berber [11][12][13]; [14]; [15]; [16]; [17]; [18]; [19][20][21]; [22]; [23]. Don't say 'Persian', say 'Muslim' Even the cookbook is not Arabic (=language), but Arab (=ethnicity)! Any pushback against this must of course be racist [24][25].

Muhsin97233's disruption is sparse but ongoing since July 2022, with little or nothing else in between (diffed above is almost every mainspace edit they made). I think a wp:nothere indef block would be helpful. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 17:07, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• I've reviewed the last several edits from this user, and it's a mixed bag; though nothing to me that says they need a block as yet. Maybe a topic ban at best. I mean, most of the edits are to talk pages, which we encourage, and is not really disrupting article text. Some of the edits, such as this one seem fine; the source doesn't seem to mention "Arabian" at all (at least, the little bit available online doesn't). Perhaps a topic ban on adding or removing ethnic or linguistic labels from article text would solve the problem? --Jayron32 17:40, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Only their most recent edits are to talk pages. In mainspace, it's been almost all disruptive (see the diffs in my comment above; the Camel urine edits are one of the few exceptions). That said, I've encountered this user during patrolling but did not report precisely because their most recent edits did not disrupt mainspace. If that is taken as a sign that they might be willing to reform, then yes, a topic ban on adding or removing ethnic or linguistic labels from article text would certainly also solve the problem. But there clearly is a problem, and I think that now that we're here it would be helpful to do something about it. I therefore also support a topic-ban as an alternative measure. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 18:11, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Muhsin97233 hasn't addressed this report yet, and I highly doubt they will. Per the diffs shown by me and Apaugasma, I think that Muhsin97233 should be indeffed, but I wouldn't oppose a topic-ban. --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:31, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Even if Muhsin97233 doesn't address this report, I think the wp:nothere POV pushing is clear. A topic-ban would help stop wasting more time with this in the future. ParadaJulio (talk) 10:33, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to report suspicious activity coming from this account @WikiEditor1234567123:. This account has been engaged in very long edit wars edits on several pages such as the Nazran raid page, which is my first encounter with him. He misrepresents his sources and does original research. I have elaborated on this in the talk page. Before I continue I will note that his account on the Russian wikipedia was notorious for edit warring on the very same article I am talking about (Nazran raid) and he was warned multiple times. He eventually got banned entirely on the Russian wikipedia due to him misrepresenting sources, as shown here.

One of the largest issues following my own investigation is suspicious behaviour that can only remind me of tag-teaming/meat-puppeting which I suspect is outright sockpuppeting with notorious accounts that have been banned already such as @Targimhoï:, @Niyskho: @MrMalaga: and @Malhuyataza: all of which are either suspected socks (mrMalaga, Malhuytaza) or confirmed socks (Targimhoi, Niyskho) of Durdzuketi a banned account that has over 10 confirmed banned socks. Targimhoi and mrMalaga were also involved on the Nazran raid article where I got involved with them. They made much of the same edits and the accounts have been subsequently banned for sock-puppeting. This is the long list of over 10 accounts that have been confirmed as sockpuppets for Dzurdzuketi and banned, including user:Targimhoi. I’ve been checking the recent history of these accounts and there are several reasons for my suspicion of @WikiEditor1234567123: being involved in tag-teaming/meat-puppeting/sock-puppeting.

• Incredibly consecutive editing. At several points has Wikieditor along with Targimhoi made edits in a very short time difference from each other. Here are examples of edits between Wikieditor and Targimhoi on articles that barely get 1 view per day. Some of these edits are minutes within each other. Note that there is no mention or tagging of each other. Wikieditor edits something on a 1 view per day article and suddenly 5 minutes after Targimhoi takes over.
  • Ex1, 1 minute difference
  • Ex2, 1 hour
  • Ex3, 7 minute difference
  • Ex4, 25 minute difference

The examples above are all on the same lines as the previous editor which you can see on the revisions, and there’s no explanation for the edits that are being done. This reminds of a joint effort.

• Wikieditor and Targimhoi seems to have been involved in numerous disputes and are seen to be backing each other. In my case on the Nazran raid article, they make the same edits and argue for the same stuff, with Targimhoi backing up Wikieditor only an hour after I edited the first time. On the same day my dispute with them was going on, Wikieditor was involved in a noticeboard incident. Targimhoi then appears out of nowhere to express his support for Wikieditor without having been mentioned or pinged anywhere.
• Editing a sandbox draft for a confirmed sockpuppet @Malhuyataza: of @MrMalaga: that make the same disruptive edits. I have no idea of where he found this sandbox draft or what led him to it. mrMalaga is also suspected to be Dzurdzuketi
• Here Wikieditor is seen editing/expanding on a draft at the same time as user Malhuyataza (confirmed sock of mrMalaga, suspected to be dzurdzuketi) literally under a day after the draft was created. Two other accounts were also seen editing on this draft, @Blasusususu: and @Iask1:. Both accounts have been banned for sockpuppeting.
• What seems like very targeted mass edits on Fyappi article. Wikieditor is seen editing with niyskho(another confirmed sockpuppet in the dzurdzuketi list), later on targimhoi jumps in. Looks like a mass targeting of the same page. Again they are not explaining their edits to each other, which further makes me believe they are connected. Edit warring for at least like 2 months.

More:

• Very long edit wars on articles such as 2004 Nazran raid, Fyappiy, Orstkhoy etc.
• After checking his revision history I also noticed most of the time he doesn’t explain his edits. This is often done when editing along with accounts that have been banned for sockpuppeting.
• Original research/misrepresenting sources. He was banned for this very thing on the Russian wiki. Keeps doing it on the English one.
• Blatant POV-pushing/nationalistic edits, heavy bias. Seems to be insisted on having Ingush written everywhere, evident by the articles I have linked. Very much in style for the 10+ accounts that are socks of Dzurdzuketi

Ola Tønningsberg (talk) 00:05, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I had previously made a post about this on WP:AN, but the post was auto-archived. This is a revision of the following comments made by the subject WikiEditor1234567123 on WP:AN and my replies after. Ola Tønningsberg (talk) 16:53, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• With respect to the socking accusation, on February 8, 2023, Wikieditor was alleged to be a sock at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Dzurdzuketi. Ivanvector made the following comment with respect to the allegation at the SPI: "I did not check WikiEditor1234567123 because I do not see sufficient evidence to warrant a check, but I can report that they did not show up in any of my checks."--Bbb23 (talk) 17:03, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Thanks for your input. Wikieditor has suspiciously close cooperation with Durdzuketi's socks. I believe enough evidence has been provided to at least warrant a new investigation, especially now that another close account to Wikieditor, Targimhoi (sock of dzurdzuketi) was recently banned. Ola Tønningsberg (talk) 17:21, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I believe I have the right to defend myself here. I don't have any cooperation with Durdzuketi's socks, which you mainly argument because of the diffs that you brought up which showed some time differences. Because I mainly edit on Ingush-themed or Caucasian-themed articles and am very active in Wikipedia for most of the part, when I see that an article in my watchlist is edited by someone - I sometimes go immediately "clean-up" the article or correct them. That's why there's sometimes these time differences that you mentioned. Regarding Russian Wikipedia, I was quickly banned there, due to my big mistakes in not providing a source for my claims, that however doesn't stop me from editing on other wikiprojects to make a good contribution. Also note that I was banned there 5 months ago, during this period people change! I immediately understood my mistakes and learned from them, and now I always provide sources for my claims. The other stuff you attributed to me is false as well, saying that I misrepresent sources and edit nationalistically etc. I hope this gives an answer to everything. WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 08:10, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Can an admin please take a look at this sock/meatpuppeting case? @Materialscientist:, @Liz:, @Maile66: Ola Tønningsberg (talk) 22:05, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This seems like it would be a better fit at WP:SPI. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:30, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Should I move it to SPI then? Even if it includes possible meatpuppeting too? Ola Tønningsberg (talk) 21:55, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I don't think SPI deals with meatpuppets, so it could probably just stay here. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:58, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any other noticeboard I can post this in? It seems like my post isn't getting any attention despite the heap of evidence provided. Ola Tønningsberg (talk) 18:50, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

SPI can handle meatpuppetry as well, and given that many cases involve a mix of the two it's worth sending there. I think that the evidence presented here is sufficient to warrant a checkuser investigation, and for that SPI is the place to go. If the results of a checkuser are negative or inconclusive, the behavioral evidence will be evaluated further and either actioned or referred back to ANI for discussion. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 21:34, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well in that case, we should probably close this and open a discussion at SPI. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:07, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, I'll open a case at SPI. Ola Tønningsberg (talk) 17:38, 20 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hey @Rosguill. This is the link for the investigation. Not sure if I did it correctly, could you take a look? Ola Tønningsberg (talk) 18:05, 20 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Ola Tønningsberg Looks good to me. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 18:17, 20 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Update for the time being.Ola Tønningsberg (talk) 23:18, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It was inappropriate for SN to make a drive-by allegation at that TP. It was not the place for same. The back-handed comment following the redaction was at least as egregious as that which was redacted - even without its own inaccuracies. As Ostalgia points out though, it is difficult to have a lot of sympathy for Michael. As Ostalgia evidences, there is a pattern of conduct that Michael will personalise discussions, misrepresent statements (by omission), cast aspersions and make pejorative comments. This is occurring in the CT of ARBEE, where there is implicitly a lower tolerance for inappropriate conduct and it certainly does not have a calming effect. What is evident from the OP is that Michael has an expectation of conduct by others not matched by his own. However, this is not a reason to excuse SN's conduct. Two wrongs don't make it right. We have clear policy and guidance on respect an civility. The message has been received? The only message being received is that in practice, WP has a high and inconsistent tolerance for disrespect and incivility. Elinruby's question is quite pertinent. What would be an appropriate outcome? A noting per Rhododendrites? I would also suggest a deletion of the disruptive material added by SN and, by necessity, the comments that directly relate to it, since they would no longer have a context. That would be an outcome with some substance. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:10, 23 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

My comment was drafted as the thread was archived and didn't create an edit conflict. Drmies, as the closer, deal with this in the way you think best, including a revert. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:16, 23 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Shahmaran (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Rojin416 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• HistoryofIran (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

There are constant citation mistakes, anytime I fix them the user HistoryofIran undos all my work. The book itself states it's from Kurdistan. Since this person has been on Wikipedia for along time, they're getting away with blatantly hoarding Kurdish pages and changed history. We tried to talk with this user on Talk multiple times, but they keep gaslighting and ignoring all our citations and books. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rojin416 (talk • contribs) 19:21, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Whether the info is right or not isn't the point here, it's the fact that you you asked for help off-wiki, which is a blatant violation of the canvassing guideline. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 19:28, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oh I didn't know that wasn't allowed. My bad. Rojin416 (talk) 19:30, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I guess you didn't know that removing/altering sourced info, using non-WP:RS, and casting WP:ASPERSIONS isn't allowed either? --HistoryofIran (talk) 19:31, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I was using reliable sources. Infact, I was even using the approved citations and reliables sources, that clearly state it was Yazidi's and Kurds from Kurdistan. Maybe if you took the time to actually read the citated resources, you wouldn't keep undoing "A Story from the Mountains of Kurdistan." to "A Story from the Mountains of Turkey."

The citation is right there. Infront of you. Maybe learn how to read and get rid of that vendetta you have against Kurds. Rojin416 (talk) 19:37, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have fixed the name of the title, that being the only constructive edit done by OP. I suggest that OP gets indeffed for WP:BATTLEGROUND, WP:NPA, WP:ASPERSIONS, WP:TENDENTIOUS, off-wiki coordination, and so on. This screams WP:NOTHERE. --HistoryofIran (talk) 19:43, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. Rojin416 (talk) 20:02, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

But there's still over 4 mistakes with that page. Rojin416 (talk) 20:03, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hold on, who is we? Is this account controlled by more than one person? QuicoleJR (talk) 23:40, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Reddit off-wiki coordination at Shahmaran

Rojin416 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Well, Rojin416 beat me to it. Shahmaran is currently being targeted by brand new users and IPs. One of them, Rojin416 was reverted a few times by me and Aintabli [39] [40] [41], which led him to ask for help at Reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/kurdistan/comments/13h03b2/i_need_help_with_wikipedia/). Two weeks ago, a similar thread about the same article was created [42]. --HistoryofIran (talk) 19:24, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

According to Reddit, this person has a vendetta against Kurds and is constantly censoring anything related to Kurdistan. The citations itself clearly say "Yazidi kurds", or "from Kurdistan", yet this person constantly undos everything. Rojin416 (talk) 19:29, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please, at least be creative with your WP:ASPERSIONS. This users activities here and comment on Reddit clearly demonstrates serious WP:BATTLEGROUND issues. --HistoryofIran (talk) 19:30, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not attacking you. You have a very clear political vendetta. It's very evident from your history regarding Kurds. Rojin416 (talk) 19:33, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I rest my case. --HistoryofIran (talk) 19:33, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

According to Reddit? Are you kidding me? Reddit is most certainly not a reliable source, and accusations should be made with hard evidence, such as diffs. QuicoleJR (talk) 23:38, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As a redditor myself, I gotta say: redditors love talking out of their asses. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 00:06, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

but you're an unreliable source for saying that "redditors love talking out of their asses" :) – dudhhr ^talk _contribs (he/they) 17:53, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Is it time for general sanctions on accounts with fewer than 100 edits that bring HistoryofIran to ANI? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:07, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  ...you're telling me this a thing that keeps happening? LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 20:27, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I've lost count on how many times I've seen ANI reports on HistoryofIran on my watchlist. Callmemirela 🍁 20:33, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  In the past 12 months? At least 15 times, and that's just a quick look at the archives. RickinBaltimore (talk) 20:40, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  ”Clippy” appears. ‘It looks like you’re a new user trying to report HistoryofIran. Would you like me to help by closing your browser?’ — Trey Maturin™ 20:43, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  And it's always some niche thing that few people are familiar with, so it languishes until three days before the next thread starts. Maybe a general sanction to just partial block any account with fewer than 100 edits that brings HistoryofIran to ANI from any page they're in conflict? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:48, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Not gonna lie, that would make things way more simple. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 20:53, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Can we vote on this? I agree that HistoryofIran has continuously been the target of many disruptive and libeling newcomers. Aintabli (talk) 21:12, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  It is rather wearying, isn't it? Actually, it would actually be quite a trivial edit filter to stop any new editor from starting a thread here that contained the string "HistoryofIran" ... Black Kite (talk) 20:47, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Yup, sounds good. I'm new to ANI and this already isn't the first HistoryofIran report I've seen. As for this specific report, I think this could safely be closed as a WP:BOOMERANG against the plaintiff, probably by indeffing them. QuicoleJR (talk) 23:26, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  So let me get this straight. You people aren't alarmed by the fact that HistoryOfIran gets reported constantly, but because he's been here a long time, you're all going to give him god level status and going forth ignore every report about him? He has issues with allowing edits, and continues to undo anything related to Kurds or Kurdistan. This isn't my cited source, it's a source that he keeps REVERTING TO. Which he accepts as a cited source:

  ^Nicolaus, Peter (2011). “The Serpent Symbolism in the Yezidi Religious Tradition and the Snake in Yerevan” Iran & Caucasus. 15 (1/2): 59. JSTOR 41430888. “Furthermore, the serpent

  Was, and still is considered a symbol of good fortune and power among Kurdish people and the “image of Shahmaran (the queen of serpents) is depicted on glass or metal work, seen hung on walls even today”.”Accessed 14 May 2023

  However, for some reason, he won't allow me to write "Kurds" nor "Kurdistan" on the page, even though it's our mythology. I'm not here writing war stories, writing a biography, nor essays, I'm just trying to edit the page to reflect my culture and heritage which is being suppressed by HistoryOfIran. Even using THEE cited source that he himself refuses to accept anything but.

  This is ridiculous. It's evident this user has constantly been complained about in the past, but everyone's solution is just to make it so he never gets reported again? Rojin416 (talk) 00:02, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  He always gets reported by new editors that end up indeffed for severe WP:NPOV violations, so stopping those reports would save time for everyone involved. As for this dispute, the Reddit stuff and allegations of bias do not reflect well on you. QuicoleJR (talk) 00:06, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What's ridiculous is that Rojin416 is still trying to justify their disruptive editing. That source doesn't say that the Shahmaran is of Kurdish origin, it just says that the Kurds believe in it too. And that's fine, the source is WP:RS (unlike some other ones.. [43]), it can obviously be used, and no one is denying that Kurds believe in the Shahmaran too; it's even mentioned in the article. But how did you use that source? Hmm.. let me see [44] (note: the Nicolaus citation was wrongly used on the Indo-Iranian bit instead of Sartori. Nicolaus should be used somewhere else, which is what Rojin416 should have done; I have fixed it now [45]) - you removed sourced mention of its Armenian, Turkic and Indo-Iranian connections, replacing all of it with "insert something Kurdish here". And thus you got reverted. And I'm not even gonna entertain the rest of stuff you wrote. I do think the Shahmaran article is in a state of mess based on some of the questionable citations, info not even supported by some of the citations, etc, but you did not improve its state. --HistoryofIran (talk) 00:17, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We've already talked about this in Talk section.

"That source doesn't say that the Shahmaran is of Kurdish origin, it just says that the Kurds believe in it too."

AND YET KURDS/YAZIDI/AND KURDISTAN IS STILL MISSING!

Why are we constantly going in circles? Look at your Armenian citation. It literally states it's the Yazidis that celebrate it.

"note: the Nicolaus citation was wrongly used on the Indo-Iranian bit instead of Sartori. Nicolaus should be used somewhere else, which is what Rojin416 should have done; I have fixed it now"

And the citation that you deleted, literally stated Kurdistan and Kurdish in it. Instead of updating Kurdistan and Kurdish, you delete it. AGAIN, for the millionth time, why you and another user are accused of vandalizing the page and denying Kurds and Kurdistan. Rojin416 (talk) 01:21, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[46]https://eprints.soas.ac.uk/29354/1/10731449.pdf

Here read for yourself. It constantly mentions Kurdistan and the Yazidi's. It does not state it originated from Armenia. Rojin416 (talk) 01:38, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This thread isn't for content disputes. That's the whole point of a talk page and other venues if no consensus is reached. This is about your behaviour. You can't spit out the word vandalism when a discussion doesn't steer your way. This is about your behaviour. Per WP:BRD, the next step would have been having a civil discussion and potentially reaching consensus. Callmemirela 🍁 03:30, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• I've indeffed as a WP:BOOMERANG. I would support more general sanctions as well. - UtherSRG (talk) 13:41, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   Oppose an indefinite block. Both Rojin416 and HistoryofIran need to work on their ability to collaborate, and I would support a two-way interaction ban, but indefinitely blocking a productive contributor does more harm than good.  — Freoh 17:15, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I disagree. With evidence of canvassing, PA, and edit warring, the indef block could have been warranted. Callmemirela 🍁 17:41, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Yeah, the moment Rojin wrote I'm not attacking you. You have a very clear political vendetta. It's very evident from your history regarding Kurds. was the moment an indef became inevitable because there is no way back from such an egregious attack on an editor. The canvassing and the edit warring – good god, look at their contributions – was enough but that was more than enough. Good block, UtherSRG. Thank you. — Trey Maturin™ 17:50, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I also believe that the personal attacks and Reddit canvassing warrant the user being indeffed. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:43, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Rojin416 said that they were unaware of the canvassing policy and owned up to their mistakes. Their attacks are somewhat problematic, but they seem like a good-faith newcomer with real concerns about HistoryofIran's potentially tendentious editing. Their complaints are in the gray area between personal attack and legitimate conduct dispute. They need time to cool down and learn Wikipedia's culture, not an indefinite block.  — Freoh 14:27, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

They didn't only violate the canvassing policy though, for example they kept attacking me despite being told of WP:ASPERSIONS/WP:NPA (though it goes without saying you don't randomly attack people, it's basic etiquette [47]). It seems you're the only one who consider this user to be a "good-faith editor" and "productive contributor," despite their actions, which is concerning. If you think I am doing tendentious edits, feel free to report me - right now you're just doing the same as Rojin416, accusing me of stuff with no evidence, i.e. WP:ASPERSIONS. Rojin416 has deleted all their comments in that thread now, but right after their block they went on another angry rant on Reddit, calling Wikipedia a cesspool or something alike and protesting over Shahmarans recent expansion by an uninvolved user - they clearly don't regret their actions. Don't expect another reply from me, and please don't ping me in this thread again. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:02, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I again disagree. Prior to the Reddit post being deleted, they were demonstrating POV-pushing, including possible in their latest unblock request. Callmemirela 🍁 16:32, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Rojin416 was a bin-fire in the making. Their edits were terrible, their personal attacks on HistoryofIran were awful in every way, and it's not a huge surprise for anyone anywhere on the internet to know that rounding up your mates on social media in order to bombard somewhere or someone is always unacceptable behaviour.

Also, Freoh: a cool down block for them? Really? Come on. There are good reasons why we don't do that. — Trey Maturin™ 16:39, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

with real concerns about HistoryofIran's potentially tendentious editing

I'm guessing you've not hung out on ANI much. Because I'll be blunt: HistoryofIran is one of our best resources for fighting against nationalistic POV warriors in these articles. The concerns about HoI invariably come from people trying to push "OUR nation created this, not THOSE people" types of edits. If anything, HoI deserves a medal for putting up with the lengthy battles against these types of accounts, and the number of times they've had to sit waiting on admin action.

Despite the OP's assertion that we're supporting HoI based on the age of their account, the truth is that we're supporting HoI based on the fact they've been right more often than not. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 17:38, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Speaking of waiting on admin action...cough cough scroll up cough ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 18:03, 17 May 2023 (UTC) [reply]

Which thread are you referring to? QuicoleJR (talk) 17:00, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Muhsin97233

Has been open since the 1st of May, pretty clear block candidate, no admin action. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 13:52, 23 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Volkish Kurden

Volkish Kurden (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Looks like another brand new user arrived from Reddit, with the same behaviour as Rojin416. I could go into more details (such as them inserting their own words/opinion into articles [48] [49], and thinking that they get to omit a (highly prominent) historian because they dont agree with them [50]) but I hope these diffs suffice;

"rvv, extreme pan iranic edits previously, dedicated to wiping out kurdic history, whilst the short explanation on the Corduene wiki about Carduchoi exists, it is insufficient." (This was their first edit, randomly reverting my half year old clean up edit, which I did in a number of articles at that time, such as Cadusii [51]. Apparently that warrants those random attacks. How did they even know of that edit? And why attack a random stranger like that? Also, including the Cyrtians as part of "Kurdic history" is on par with a Mexican saying that Aztec/Mayan/Spanish history is "Mexican" just because they can trace their ancestry to them)

"your edit completely destroyed the page, I had linked the article to the Carduchi hypothesis on the Corduene page however your claim that I had apparently attempted to diminish your reputation was mere tu quoque. As my reasoning for my edit summary was based on a posteriori considering your pan-iranic bias and subsequently anti kurdish nature"

"I decided to skim through your “contributions” to Kurdish articles and have found you constantly use the “right great wrongs” as a way to circumvent the removal of a kurdophobe from wikipedia, I would say that is a very smart move but it is fuelling the misinformation about Kurds."

"merely using your logic against you, plus abhorrent kurdophobia is clearly bannable"

Their userpage bio alone is already pretty concerning; "just a kurdish historian who believes in the truth and debunking any of our oppressors misinformation for good" Who are these "oppressors"? And who are they to judge what is "misinformation" and "truth"? --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:56, 21 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Indef block and checkuser/SPI Could be sockfarming. @HistoryofIran: As I said before, your username is one of the reasons why they target and harass you. I know that you want to keep your username, but can you really deal with all of this frustrating stuff? I think a new username would be helpful. At least, those users may stop writing nationalistic/racist rants and focus on the content of your edits. Regards. --Mann Mann (talk) 03:35, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Indef block and checkuser per Mann Mann. Clearly there's no good in regularly dealing with newcomers whose off-Wiki campaign is demonstrated by their parallel claims of prejudice, while in the earlier case of Shahmaran, what they did was basically remove or replace anything non-Kurdish. Aintabli (talk) 08:10, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

you’ve victimised yourself once again and when I used your wording against you, you instead rushed to report me because I had provided sufficient evidence against Asatrian being a literal racist ultranationalist, this isn’t about Kurdish nationalism at all, this is the same level as trying to use Hans Günther as a “reliable” source, nonsensical. Volkish Kurden (talk) 15:39, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Indeffed. If someone wants a checkuser to check if it's sock or meat they should start an SPI. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:42, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks everyone, I'll make the SPI shortly. --HistoryofIran (talk) 17:51, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn't sure where to ask about this, so I will try here. 22spears has added a link to the article Tom O'Carroll. The link goes to O'Carroll's personal blog. O'Carroll is a notorious pedophile who has been jailed multiple times and continues to advocate pedophilic relationships. Old conversations on Talk:Tom O'Carroll show that a different O'Carroll site was removed in the past.

Is this link is allowed on Wikipedia? MrPinkingShears (talk) 22:43, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

MrPinkingShears This is an article content issue that should be discussed on the article talk page. Wikipedia is not censored, but there needs to be an encyclopedic purpose for an external link. I'm not entirely clear on what link is problematic, but the only links I see seem to be used as citations. 331dot (talk) 22:51, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• I've indefffed the OP, an unusual new editor, for repeated personal attacks at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Minor-attracted person (2nd nomination). The OP also failed to notify 22spears.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:59, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  You can call them personal attacks, but there also some pretty serious accusations that should be addressed. We have an editor adding in an encyclopedia article a blog by a convicted pedophile and relaying this person's view that an 11 year old is "hot". If what the OP wrote is true this is not the block that was needed here. nableezy - 23:31, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I am beginning to believe the wrong new editor might have been indeffed here…. Someone (maybe me, tomorrow when I have my laptop out) needs to take a longer, critical look at 22spears editing. Courcelles (talk) 23:54, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  And their user page. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 23:56, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Sorry, but what's wrong with their userpage? GIF of dancing anime-girl? Or quote with d-word? USS Cola!rado🇺🇸 (C⭐T) 06:29, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Not so much "or" as "and". As in, the image and the quote and their choice of articles to edit. The combination is trolling at best. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 19:52, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  About that addition on Tom O'Carroll's article, nableezy, I added it primarily due to my notion surrounding the WP:UNCENSORED policy. I am aware that his comments regarding children were icky, but in my understanding they did merit being added in the article due to the fact that he was once reported on news outlets and social media accounts for making sexualized comments regarding a drag kid in his wordpress blog before it was banned. And if it is true that I added a link to his blog in the WP article, as the OP was saying, I'm almost sure that I did it to source the claims that O'Carroll's did indeed make those comments (this is a BLP after all, so sourcing in those articles is never too much, especially when it comes to potentially criminal/sexual harrassment accusations). 🔥 22spears 🔥 00:54, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Uncensored does not mean include the personal blog of a pedophile as though that were a usable source. The only source in the Drag kids section you added is O'Carroll's personal blog. We do not advertise a pedophile's views on how hot an eleven year old is sourced to his blog in the name of "NOTCENSORED". I find that justification incredibly weak to the point of questioning why it was even made. And there is no if about it, the internet famously being written in ink and Wikipedia having this nifty diff feature shows that you indeed did add that blog and that sentence. nableezy - 00:58, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Nableezy is 100% right. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 01:04, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Obviously. Our article was discovered by "pro-MAPs" within days of its creation, and that was followed by signs of canvassing at the AfD. According this academic book: several pro-pedophilia online groups want to make Wikipedia "more neutral" (in their favour), and to push traffic to their sites, which makes the O'Carroll edit look awful, as well as this edit by another SPA involved in the "MAP" article.

  There are also these personal attacks [52] [53], and this BLPvio through an MREL source[54] (see the new section at the end, and contrast with comment below about BLPCRIME). Different diff from GhostofDanGurney. DFlhb (talk) 03:38, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Then I was on the wrong there, and the reverd by gnu was right. Again, I'm new on Wikipedia, nableezy, be patient with me. Looking up this incident right now, I found this and this souces from online outlets, both of which technically tell the truth but are generally unreliable. This is were I was coming from with those edits, but the decision to source it with a blog post was clearly wrong and was probably made when I wasn't aware of WP's policies regarding reliable sources. 🔥 22spears 🔥 01:07, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Can't WP:ABOUTSELF be reasonably applied in an "Opinions" section, even for someone we consider despicable? small jars tc 01:28, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Possibly, but there is also the WP:BLPCRIME policy that should be considered, which says "editors must seriously consider not including material—in any article—that suggests the person has committed, or is accused of having committed, a crime, unless a conviction has been secured". It is possible that in some jurisdictions what O'Carroll did could be considered sexual harrassment, so it's better to not include anything about that anyway. 🔥 22spears 🔥 01:47, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  You think the reason not to include this is to protect O'Carrroll? nableezy - 05:12, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Please read point #2 of ABOUTSELF. Or the bolded part. DFlhb (talk) 03:40, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  In WP:ABOUTSELF, after the bolded part, is "so long as: (1) the material is neither unduly self-serving nor an exceptional claim;" see the last inclusion entry in WP:EXTRAORDINARY: "Claims contradicted by the prevailing view within the relevant community or that would significantly alter mainstream assumptions...". I presume calling ten-year-olds "hot" is 'contradicted by the prevailing view', otherwise we wouldn't set the legal age of consent higher than that. – .Raven  ^.talk 05:07, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Is it against mainstream opinions that a known pedophile would have the personal opinion that a ten year old is "hot”? 22spears' additions to the section did not at all take O'Carrroll's claims at face value, but only made claims about claims. (And not claims I imagine that any pro-pedophile POV pusher would like to see kept on the article!) I can appreciate that the child protection element seriously complicates things, but still feel that 22spears was acting roughly in line with normal interpretation of policy in these edits, though maybe the juxtaposition of the two contradictory claims in O'Carrroll's blog post, without secondary coverage of this contradiction bordered on WP:SYNTH, and the whole section seems dubiously WP:DUE. small jars tc 10:16, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  As I parse the texts at the two WP pages I cited above, "the material" at O'Carroll's blog was making that "exceptional claim" (="contradicted by the prevailing view") that a ten-year-old was "hot"; thus should not have been linked. But I may have mis-read, mis-parsed, or mis-interpreted those texts, or perhaps missed seeing other text that would result in a different conclusion. This is one reason to seek consensus: more eyes looking into a topic miss fewer things. – .Raven  ^.talk 10:39, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  WP:BLP also applies to the child here - we need to consider their privacy and wellbeing in this situation as well. WP:AVOIDVICTIM seems particularly relevant - if a child is being creeped on by a 70 year old is it really appropriate for Wikipedia to continue to spread the creepy and inappropriate comments around, based on a citation to a blog run by the person who said the creepy stuff in the first place? 192.76.8.85 (talk) 11:01, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I strongly agree that the content should not be in the article from this standpoint, as opposed to a WP:V-based argument, but which of the reasons we see as relevant has repercussions on our assessment of 22spears' overall conduct, which I would summarise as “insensitive” rather than “POV-pushing”. small jars tc 11:15, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Support block of 22spears. I share MrPinkingShears's concerns about 22spears's editing in the paedophilia topic area. 22spears added a "drag kids" section sourced only to O'Carroll's personal blog; I have removed it. gnu57 00:00, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Regardless of whether 22spears deserves to be blocked, the "comments" made by MPS are unacceptable. Here are some (without diffs):

"If you actually take the time to go through their contributions, it is clear that this user has been pushing a not very subtle pro-pedophile POV."

"This suggests to me that 22spears personally knows O'Carroll..."

"22spears Your use of someone's first name in your edits gave me the impression that you either know notorious pedophile Tom O'Carroll personally or are very familiar with them. That would explain why you refer to them by their first name, so familiarly. I didn't see you call Allyn Walker "Allyn" or James Cantor "James". It wasn't meant to be an accusation of wrongdoing. Since you seem very open to questions - do you know notorious pedophile Tom O'Carroll?"

---Bbb23 (talk) 00:31, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Bbb23 that these comments were casting aspersions and in effect personal attacks, even if I do have misgivings about 22spears' edits The swarm of SPAs surrounding this topic area more generally (especially at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Minor-attracted person (2nd nomination) suggests that there may be some off-wiki activity (which maybe includes joe-jobbing). Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:52, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Why did you change the OP’s signature in your previous edit? 2604:2D80:6A8D:E200:79A5:1681:C818:558E (talk) 02:40, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I would assume Hemiauchenia was on autopilot or something, considering their editing history on Opilioacaridae. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 02:53, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, that was a bizarre error. I have no idea it occurred and it was obviously unintentional. My apologies. Hemiauchenia (talk) 02:56, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It’s ok, it wasn’t my intent to accuse you of wrongdoing. Just couldn’t figure out what happened. 2604:2D80:6A8D:E200:79A5:1681:C818:558E (talk) 02:59, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Apparenrly MrPinkingShears recently showed up here again as this IP, though his reply was erased. 🔥 22spears 🔥 01:12, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Spears22, regarding those diffs you just cited (attacks on Bbb23 calling for de-admining) -- those have been coming from new users and Virginia-based IPs (range: 2601:5c2:200:21bd::/64) for several months - well before any of the controversies here and before you (Spears22) or MrPinkingShears started editing. I don't think that's MrPinkingShears making those edits you just cited. --A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 05:05, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Depending on the nature of that blog, there may be Wikipedia:Child protection considerations if the potential exists for an interaction between a young reader and the blog owner as a result of this link. I’d skip the link if in doubt. —A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 01:57, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A little creepy that 22spears’ edit refers to “Tom”, not “O’Carroll”. —A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 02:05, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I was waiting for this comment. Callmemirela 🍁 02:07, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Now, to be fair, it was brought up by MrPinkingShears earlier. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 02:08, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion that’s a serious enough concern to be brought up again, an editor with a history that seems to imply they have been generally trying to make pedophilia/pedophiles appear more favorably referring to a famous pro-pedophilia activist by first name is quite concerning. Googleguy007 (talk) 13:10, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Even creepier that it's not even "Tom", but "Thomas" in the edit summary. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  03:12, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I often refer to the people of the biographies I edit by their first name. You can navigate my edits relating to Allyn Walker (who I even referred as Allyson, which is their full (dead)name), and maybe even Tim Ballard if you want to confirm. I don't see how the fact that I refer to them by their first names means that I have a personal connection with them, at least in my mother language that is a common thing to do, even if the person we are talking about is a stranger (admins in this thread can see where I am from by looking at my IP's geolocation, but don't expose where I live). 🔥 22spears 🔥 03:15, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Using a first name like that is not our style on the English Wikipedia. Also, admins can't see your IP address; only check-users can (for sock puppetry) and they have to show justification. I suppose IP records may be accessible for legal proceedings but that's at the level of the Wikipedia Foundation, not Wikipedia editors. --A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 03:39, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Support block The creepy userpage. The creation of "minor-attracted person" over a redirect to Wiktionary and Stigma of pedophilia. The other points raised here by A. B. and Genericusername57 are just too many dots for me. The icing on the cake here for me is that their first edit (made less than two months ago) included BLP-violating wording about the founder of an anti-pedophilia group. This "unusual new editor" does not seem capable of editing from a NPOV in this topic area (which I would believe falls under the GENSEX CTOP). ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  03:12, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I checked out the blog post that started this argument. The content certainly fits within our WP:NOTCENSORED policy. However, per Wikipedia:Child protection, I am concerned about the opportunity for interaction between an underaged reader and one of the many people commenting on the blog post (there are 175 comments). I don't think it's worth the risk to underage readers. Besides, that link is the reference for a comment by O'Carroll that's of minor import - just how important is it that we include his opinion of child drag performer Desmond is Amazing? I say delete the Desmond is Amazing opinion and the blog link together. Dilemma resolved. --A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 03:37, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Clarifying since there are discussions on two different editors going on in here, that this is support of a block for 22spears. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  04:53, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Support block of 22spears per my reply above, and per my AfD arguments that Minor attracted person is a POV fork and unacceptably normalizes pedophilia (per Zaathras is right). DFlhb (talk) 03:45, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Attraction to minors includes more than just pedophilia, so Minor-attracted person cannot possibly be a POV fork of Pedophilia. Casdmo (talk) 04:00, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  This is the main counterargument to POVFORK, yet it's a technicality.

  This paper, highly-cited (380 citations), says For the sake of simplicity and convention, we refer to both hebephilic and pedophilic men as “pedophilic.” That's common even in scholarship. When papers treat them as interchangeable, it's not vandalism to do so. DFlhb (talk) 04:47, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  In this case "common" conflicts with "precision", an event also found in "Hindu terrorism" vs "Hindutva terrorism", "Islamic terrorism" vs "Islamist terrorism", "Christian terrorism" vs "Christian nationalist terrorism", etc. At a certain point, I think precision should win, otherwise we're helping perpetuate mistakes because they're "common" mistakes. – .Raven  ^.talk 05:16, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I deny the implicit premise that the topic of a POV-fork must be precisely coterminous with the topic of the forked article. The topic minor-attracted person might indeed be a strict superset of the topic pedophilia (though I do not grant this), yet nonetheless the former may still be a POV-fork of the latter. WP:POVFORK itself gives an example of a POV-fork that does not cover the precise topic area of any existing article. Shells-shells (talk) 05:08, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  To be more precise, minor-attracted person is a subset of the Chronophilia subject (because it emcompasses some chronophilias, such as pedophilia and hebephilia, but not others such as mesophilia and gerontophilia). The reason why I created that page was not for it to be a POV-fork, it was because of the of the recent controversies relating to the usage of this term by public figures and organizations (Project Horizon, Mermaids, etc; you can read about them in the MAP article, if it's still there). Since that term was covered by RS, I believed it would be fine to create a separate article just to address it. I had actually made some edits on the Chronophilia page just to address this term, but it felt a little off-topic, which motivated me to start a draft of an article dedicated just to that word in my userspace, which I then published in the mainspace in the beggining of this month. That article was sort of a WP:SPLIT from the Chronophilia and Allyn Walker ones. 🔥 22spears 🔥 06:15, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I would like to make it clear that @DFlhb has had a personal beef with me for days ever since I made a revert of his edit in the MAP article (I called it a "POV-push", and 2 minutes later he showed up to oppose me in the AfD and then called me uncivil in the talk page), so therefore any claim that he makes about me or I make about him is not coming from an unbiased party. About that edit, DFlhb, I wasn't trying to offend you, I was just being blunt. I understand that it feels shitty when someone dismisses your contribution as bad, especially in a revert, but calling for me to be blocked two days after that happened is in a level of bitterness that I have never had against anyone on WP. Actually, I almost invited you to discuss on the talk page of that article about the edit that you had made, but I felt like I didn't have to because I thought you would already knew how WP:Dispute resolutions usually work on WP. You're not the first person I disagreed with in the article, I have also called Sedan's edit SYNTH in the past and we were able to discuss the issue civilly in the talk page just fine. 🔥 22spears 🔥 06:02, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  The user is now blocked, but for the record, I started typing my AfD reply before that revert ever happened; it had no impact on my vote. DFlhb (talk) 09:12, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose block of 22spears. The only misstep 22spears has made was the aforementioned citation of O'Carroll. 22spears has admitted fault (see above) regarding the citation. The other stated reasons for supporting a block of 22spears pertain to personal discomfort (such as one editor's use of the word creepy above), which is too subjective to warrant a block. Casdmo (talk) 03:50, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Since you directly reference my support of a block, I will clarify that my support comes from the totality of reasons I stated, including their first version of Predator Poachers containing BLP-violating material about the founders political views, not just their interpretation of WP:UPYES to include a particular lyric placed beside a particular image. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  04:34, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose MrPinkingShears block - I disagree with indefinitely blocking MrPinkingShears. His comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Minor-attracted person (2nd nomination) crossed a line but nobody really warned him of our policies before dropping an indefinite block. I suggest trimming the block. I will also note that he has made some good comments about content. He just needs to understand we argue over content not other editors' intentions. I think a 24-hour block would serve that purpose just as well. --A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 03:51, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  What "line" did MPS cross? From what I just read, the only aspersion he cast was to accuse 22spears of pushing a pro-pedophilia POV. That's pretty harsh, sure, but a number of editors in this thread have made the exact same accusation. Ravenswing 08:29, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• I think it's pretty obvious what's going on here. You're never going to find a smoking gun on this kind of thing, but there really isn't any good-faith justification for the pattern of edits 22spears has made. A well-meaning neutral party with an interest in paraphilias might fall into some of the mistakes observed at the MAP article, but that wouldn't explain the other edits discussed here, which are much more decidedly "pedophile culture war"-y, nor would it explain the insistence on avoiding the word "pedophile". I would indef as NOTHERE, but I happen to have created the original redirect, which isn't actually involvement in this dispute but I suppose could be taken that way, so I'll just leave this as a strong suggestion that some other admin do that. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 04:18, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I didn't use the word "pedophile" in the MAP article because reliable sources that cover this term did not do so. They all say pedophilia is a subset of the minor-attracted person umbrella. You can read them yourself. 90% of what I did in that article was put "minor-attracted person" on google and google scholar and transcribe what reliable sources said about the topic to the article. Just to illustrate it, this generally reliable source states that "The concept of Minor-Attracted Persons (MAPs), which is perceived by some as part of the attempt to normalize pedophilia, is an umbrella term used by organizations such as B4U-ACT or The Global Prevention Project, an organization that addresses “risky sexual thoughts, fantasies, and non-contact problematic sexual behavior in adult men and women,” in order to prevent child sexual abuse, as well as some researchers, to define a variety of people attracted to minors. These include nepiophiles (attracted to babies and toddlers), pedophiles (attracted to prepubescent children), hebephiles (attracted to pubescent children and early adolescents), and ephebophiles (attracted to late adolescents)." All other RS's that you find on Google will tell you the same thing. 🔥 22spears 🔥 06:40, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Indef 22Spears and Unblock MrPinkingShears but give a final warning. Per GhostofDan Gurney, A.B. and Tamzin. The current situation - with the one account blocked and the other not - is really disturbing. DeCausa (talk) 06:39, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• I have indefinitely blocked 22Spears for what appears to be an uncomfortable pattern of pro-pedophilia POV pushing. I realize that these discussions are typically left open for 24 hours, but frankly with this kind of concern, I think we should err on the side of caution. I have deliberately not closed or hatted this discussion; if consensus turns against this block then so be it. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 07:14, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Thank you. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  07:21, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I came to the same conclusion as PMC and Tamzin before seeing this thread, but PMC beat me to the block. It's blinding obvious what 22spears is up to here and I'm astonished that Bbb23's response was to block MrPinkingShears for pointing that out. Anyway, I've started Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Stigma of pedophilia and I think we need eyes on the rest of 22spears' remaining creations: Predator Poachers, Allyn Walker, primary prevention of child sexual abuse and User:22spears/Todd Nickerson. – Joe (talk) 07:40, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm convinced that Allyn Walker passes WP:GNG and is a notable topic. The article doesn't seem to have any major POV issues as far as I can tell. No strong opinions on the others. Hemiauchenia (talk) 08:02, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Strongly Agree with a close review of all articles this user has created or significantly contributed to. Googleguy007 (talk) 13:15, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Good block of 22spears, but I add my voice to those calling for MrPinkingShears to be unblocked. BilledMammal (talk) 07:44, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Good block. Enough said. -- Euryalus (talk) 07:42, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• It is a Good block (maybe it should be a CBAN). But what abour MrPinkingSheers who got blocked for pointing it out? DeCausa (talk) 07:51, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Good block, and the block of MrPinkingShears was a bad one. I'm seeing a consensus forming for unblocking the latter. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:06, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Reverse block on MrPinkingShears: Having just looked over the discussion in question, unless there are revdel'd comments I couldn't see, MrPinkingShears was indeffed for accusing 22spears of nothing more than several other editors have done in endorsing his block. Seriously? If all the personal attack MPS issued was "this guy is pushing a pro-pedophilia POV," there ought to be multiple indefs handed out to participants in this discussion. Ravenswing 08:26, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Non-admin: this user has been pushing a not very subtle pro-pedophile POV -blocked for aspersions!

Admin: I have indefinitely blocked 22Spears for what appears to be an uncomfortable pattern of pro-pedophilia POV pushing. - not blocked for aspersions!

I'd put a laughing emoji here usually, except this isn't really very funny...  Tewdar  09:06, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Reverse block of MrPinkingShears – WP:AGF? Those are comments that could certainly be good faith, and they're not clear personal attacks. A warning is probably justified here, as the questions about knowing the pedophile personally are over the line, but a block is excessive.

As for 22spears' block, I'm neutral on it. I haven't done a deep dive into their contributions, but they did seem to be POV-pushing, and they were a single-purpose account over 1100 edits in 2 months – still, I'm not sure this is necessarily grounds for a block over a TBAN, when they have expressed a desire to edit Ancient Greek and Lusophone-related articles in the future. However, I might be taking AGF too far here, and I'm certainly not a regular around here, so I'm not too familiar with the ropes of this area. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 09:28, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

See WP:CHILDPRO re blocking the 22spears account as a matter of policy. -- Euryalus (talk) 09:53, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The MAP AFD is chock full of SPAs that need some attention. Courcelles (talk) 10:45, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Euryalus: I'd say WP:CHILDPRO justifies MrPinkingShears' ban more so than 22spears'. The idea of 22spears supposedly advocating anything is clearly subjective, but MrPinkingShears without a doubt did publish allegations against 22spears on-site rather than via email as the policy requires. --Pokelova (talk) 10:57, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well ... the rabbit hole THAT falls into is that lacking a blatant statement such as "I'm a proud pedo!" from an editor or a smoking gun link with a phrase like "Check this out!" to a NAMBLA webpage, an admin could indef an editor for violating CHILDPRO, but be in violation themselves for saying why. Ravenswing 15:29, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Ravenswing The policy doesn't even seem to say what Pokelova claims it does. The policy states that Editors seemingly pushing agendas can be referred to any administrator in exactly the same way as any other POV-pushing allegation. Treating it in exactly the same way as any other allegation would surely include the use of WP:AE, WP:ANI, administrator talk pages etc? The bit about using email seems to be related to identifying people as paedophiles, which seems reasonable given the Libel/Outing concerns. Asking if 22spears knew Tom O'Carroll was toeing the line, but they don't seem to have actually made accusations of anything other than POV pushing. 192.76.8.85 (talk) 16:32, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, and thanks for the ping. I don't believe the 22spears block is subjective. I haven't reviewed MrPinkingShears' block, sorry. Plenty of others have in this thread, so I'm confident it's getting appropriate attention. -- 11:07, 15 May 2023 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Euryalus (talk • contribs)

a desire to edit Ancient Greek and Lusophone-related articles in the future Without comment on anything else about the justification for either block, an apparent SPA with a history of POV-pushing on paedophilia-related topics wanting to edit on Ancient Greek history is not necessarily reassuring. Homosexuality in ancient Greece, pederasty in ancient Greece and related topics are a known ideological battleground for people with an axe to grind related to paedophilia. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 11:26, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like 86Sedan was just banned too as an AE action, which I support. See the edits apparently whitewashing an org that argues that if a child is "willing", no harm is caused. This edit summary is misleading: "minimize harm" is not an opinion but straight from the cited source, and there's no "controversy" about what the clinical data say, per the sources we cite. See also the insertion the self-description of a controversial group (a group which refuses to take sides pro/contra molestation). And just for fun, peep this other misleading edit summary. DFlhb (talk) 11:25, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Unblocked I have accepted MrPinkingShears' unblock request as I see multiple admins calling for it, and no objections. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 11:25, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Support blocks of 22spears and 86sedan. Definite POV pushing going here that could have severely damaged Wikipedia. --SouthernNights (talk) 12:11, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Support all current blocks (i.e. not MPS). Ugh. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 18:20, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think we can probably close this section of the thread, as it seems all necessary action has been taken, unless there's anything else. ‍ ‍ Helloheart ‍ ‍ 00:06, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Support current state of affairs (22spears and 86sedan blocked), PinkingShears unblocked. Obviously matters have already been set aright here, but I thought I would provide a little bit of extra context underlying the disturbing activities here and the fact that they go back a bit. I've previously (to my great distaste) become familiar with the situation at the O'Carrol article in the past: I can't recall if the first occasion was via RfC or in my capacity as a pending changes reviewer, but I do recall the circumstances were distressingly similar to those here: a small cadre of abuse apologists pursuing attempts to whitwash the article, legitimize O'Carrol's propensities as just a sort of sexual identity, and shift the article more towards discussing his views rather than independent RS coverage of his crimes and reputation in mainstream sources, all in pretty blatant violation of WP:CHILDPROTECT.

Now, I didn't face any ill-advised block or other blowback for my efforts to draw attention to this situation, but as I recall there was significant frustration of another sort in that I was met with mostly silence as I attempted to send up a flag at several different spaces. I will, reluctantly, poke through the new edits by these two new blocked users to see if the pattern of their edits rings any bells of familiarity and see if there is anything practical I can add to hopefully creating a bullwark against this community of O'Carrol boosters, but I really do think the fact that this situation has played out so similarly multiple times now suggests that we could be doing more to lock down that particular article and streamline and facilitate reports on violations of this nature. In the meantime, I wonder if it doesn't make more sense to advise anyone who runs into similar behaviour in this or other articles on such predators to simply take the matter directly to the Trust and Safety team. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 23:34, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Snow Rise: If you're looking for connections to past O'Carroll supporters, do note that I've blocked Doxastic1000 as a likely sock of one such user, Researcher1000 (as well as per CHILDPROTECT). -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 00:16, 20 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Tamzin: I appreciate the heads-up! SnowRise ^{let's rap} 00:49, 20 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, so I've looked through the recent edit history of the O'Carrol article and some of the contributions of the recently blocked pair of SPAs, and reviewed my filing at SPI for the then-most-recent socks of the Researcher1000 sockmaster--I eventually utilized SPI to get some administrative action because it was taking too long to get blocks implemented on WP:CHILDPROTECT criteria alone; thankfully the socking case was strong, even without technical evidence. I would be very surprised indeed if this is not the same user or set of users--it has been unclear from the start the number of bad actors, but I think it is just one or two.

I actually suspected O'Carroll himself as the sockmaster at the time, as an account using his name was one of the earliest and most problematic in the cluster, and the messaging of later accounts really followed the same blueprint of his arguments about how he was a misunderstood intellectual being "defamed" and that his assaults of children were being mischaracterized, because, according to his reasoning, "child rape" was an unfair label, in that we could not prove that the children did not consent to and enjoy sex with him... Yeah, dealing with this situation the last time around was easily the single least pleasant experience I've had on the project. Anyway, Berean Hunter, in blocking the then-active sock (belated note of appreciation for that, Berean) noted that they did not believe the other accounts were connected to the nominal O'Carroll account, but they declined to share the factors leading to that conclusion for purpose of WP:BEANS: I meant to follow up on more discrete channels, but I guess I was just happy enough for it to be done for the moment and let good enough lay, and I never did look deeper.

Anyway, the tone and particulars of this new pair are really close behavioural matches for the older sock clusters. I think that the IP that requested a removal of reference to O'Carroll's abuse convictions was probably related as well. JBW complied with that request, but on the goodfaith basis that it was not supported by the inline citations attached to that sentence, based on how the IP presented the facts. Thing is, I'm pretty certain that either those sources or others in the article support that description of the charges, because I believe (and I'll have to double check this later, but I'm fairly certain) the "conspiring to corrupt public morals" charge directly related to his sexual abuse of an extremely young boy (this was in the early 80s, so...). That or there were other charges represented in other sources; this was four years ago and not exactly a set of facts one's mind wants to dwell on, so the sources will have to be re-consulted. But my impulse is that the language removed should probably be restored, and I don't think it would require additional sourcing, but again, will have to confirm that.

Ok, that's all I have the time/energy/mental stamina for now, folks: I was already exhausted from the week and nearly a couple of straight days up, and stumbling towards well overdue sleep before I noticed that this ugly situation had resurge. And revisiting it hasn't exactly been a refreshing tonic. I'll try to tease out some additional details this weekend, but the long and the short of it is that I do think this is the same group of abuse-apologist activists; it is a very good thing that MrPinkingShears caught and moved to arrest their activities this time around; the article should probably be semi- or pending changes-protected indefinitely this time; and we need a more dedicated methodology for getting robust attention to WP:CHILDPROTECT violations more immediately. As for the rest, it will have to wait until my brain is rebooted. Thanks to everyone who acted to stop this malignancy this time, once it became clear what was going on. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 04:24, 20 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The article doesn't really qualify for protection at this stage: it's fairly low-traffic (around 20 edits this year) with no current vandalism, edit-warring, disruption or vigorous content disputes. It's a controversial topic to be sure, but semi-protection or ECP for fear of future negative edits seems unnecessarily pre-emptive. It also wouldn't have prevented the addition of the O'Carroll blog link back in March, as the editor who added it was extended-confirmed.

Other than that, appreciate the sentiment behind your post (and hope you get some sleep). -- Euryalus (talk) 05:20, 20 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid I have to vigorously disagree with that logic here: WP:CHILDPROTECT violations are not your garden variety POV pushing by any stretch of the imagination--the steps justified in keeping that content out of an article where a group of pro-child sexual exploitation advocates have made a longterm effort to get them in are much more substantial, especially in light of the fact that involvement from legitimate editors in that space is extremely limited--and understandably so, as the subject matter doesn't inspire one to keep coming back to check on it, with the exception of making sure these activities are not occurring, and even those eyes will always eventually fall off.

Add in the fact that the subject is a pariah, with no real notability outside his crimes and advocacy in the 70s and 80s (and thus that there should be little need to adjust the article much, absent new crimes) and the math I feel militates very, very strongly for protection. Actually, you could ignore everything I just said after "WP:CHILDPROTECT violations" and it still would do. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 18:26, 20 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't that the exact scenario in which pending changes is normally used? Skarmory (talk • contribs) 05:34, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Articles created by 22spears

• Allyn Walker
• Primary prevention of child sexual abuse
• User:22spears/templatedue
• User:22spears/Todd Nickerson

given the inappropriateness of the articles already at afd, the rest of this person's creations require scrutiny. ValarianB (talk) 14:12, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Call it IAR if you like, but I'm deleting the userspace pages on that list. Courcelles (talk) 14:15, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Im currently in the process of making some bold edits to "Primary prevention of child sexual abuse", it seems like the purpose it was created for was to push the idea that arresting child abusers is bad, but it also seems notable outside of that so im not going to AFD (right now) Googleguy007 (talk) 16:04, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You might be wasting your time, Googleguy007. That page starts "The primary prevention of sexual abuse consists of a set of measures taken to prevent child sexual abuse before it happens". Given that prevention of something after it happens is relatively unusual, and removing some other clutter, that sentence reduces to "The prevention of [child] sexual abuse is the prevention of child sexual abuse". That's not a promising definition of a topic. I'd consider redirecting it Sexual violence#Prevention or some better target, but AfD looks like a good option too. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 20:05, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That’s a good point, thinking about it a little more it doesn’t really have a purpose outside of describing punishing child sexual abusers as somehow worse than attempting to get them help. I do think it ~could~ make a decent article someday but that would have to be after a full rewrite. Googleguy007 (talk) 21:40, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I redirected it to Child sexual abuse#Prevention as a quick fix. XOR'easter (talk) 00:22, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I would parse that as "preventing even the *first* time someone abuses a child, rather than waiting until then to try preventing *subsequent* times" – the latter being admittedly how the judicial system (imprisonment, parole, abuser-registry) works, as actual criminal acts are what triggers it — merely *potential* criminals don't enter that system. But then all those "first victims" don't get protected. Something that prevents the *first* abuse thus protects those children, yet doesn't require imprisonment etc., works also to the benefit of the pedophiles, true... but in this case, NOT benefitting the pedophiles requires NOT protecting their "first victims". If I misunderstand that, please explain in what way. – .Raven  ^.talk 02:19, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Allyn Walker is based heavily upon post-2013 Newsweek and other unreliable sources. At best, it needs radical stubbification. XOR'easter (talk) 23:56, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Operation Underground Railroad was also substantially edited by 22spears, and needs scrutiny. DFlhb (talk) 00:16, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Cut this one back. The talk page has solid, experienced editors so I think it's in good hands. DFlhb (talk) 02:15, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I've cut Allyn Walker back to a point where the sourcing is respectable, at least. I'm somewhat concerned that we have a WP:BLP1E situation; an academic wouldn't likely be notable for a single book, and the controversy seems to have made a splash and then receded as people found the next thing to be angry at. XOR'easter (talk) 00:41, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Having worked on the article and having thought about the sourcing further. I agree there is a convincing argument that this is a WP:BLP1E. Hemiauchenia (talk) 02:27, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If there hadn't been a controversy, we'd have an academic with a single book to their credit, and the standard course of action would be to refactor the article into a page about the book. XOR'easter (talk) 02:48, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've taken it to AfD, see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Allyn Walker. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:16, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone speak Portuguese? 22spears was quite busy on ptwiki back in April, and focused on similar subjects. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 19:38, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wish I did. I only speak like 3 words Dronebogus (talk) 09:41, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not particularly familiar with the subject matter, so I'm a poor judge of fringe-pushing here, but I would draw to people's attention the creation of an article for Danilo Baltieri ([55]) that makes various claims about medical/scholarly topics but is cited solely to journalistic sources, the addition of similarly-cited claims attributed to Baltieri on the pt.wiki page for pedophilia ([56]), the liberal application of citation-needed tags at the same ([57]). I'm going to notify their AN-equivalent of this discussion. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 16:59, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Rosguill, Suffusion of Yellow, and Dronebogus: The content added or removed by the account on ptwiki significantly modified the structure of a sensitive article, a fact that already justifies the reversal of edits. In short, the feeling I get is the same as Rosguill. He removed information referenced by academic sources or entities/institutions by content referenced by journalistic interviews.

This subject is quite controversial on ptwiki. In the past, we even had suspicions of accounts practicing apology for pedophilia. I'm not an expert. But that article cannot be left unprotected. Edmond Dantès ^{d'un message?} 18:28, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Conde Edmon Dantès, for taking action here. Also pinging Isabelle Belato, an enwiki admin who's active on ptwiki, just for a second set of eyes there. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 18:34, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Making a note that I've seen the ping and will take a look later today, thanks. Isabelle Belato ^🏳‍🌈 21:50, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also regarding 86sedan

Two things that we should consider regarding the now-blocked 86sedan:

1. I just found out that the user was blocked on Wiktionary in September 2021 with the reason "Disruptive edits: advocating illegal activities". Going forward, this can be a reminder to myself and others to check cross-wiki permissions (e.g. [58]). But also: shouldn't the user have been blocked here as well? Is it policy when someone is blocked for such a reason? If not, perhaps it should be?

2. 86sedan claims to be a WP:SOCKLEGIT in the first sentence of their userpage. Personally, I've doubted this, and consider it to be an excuse to explain why they were familiar with Wikipedia and that the original was in fact a blocked account from years past. But given this admission, should we not run a CheckUser on the account to see who, if anyone, the master is, and block them as well? There is off-wiki evidence that they have made contributions on certain non-WMF sites that are extremely concerning, and that's all I'll say for now in case this is considered aspersions or something. If an admin prompts me to reply more here or to send an email I am happy to oblige.

Crossroads ^-talk- 19:49, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've seen a claim off-wiki (which might or might not be the same one) that connects 86sedan with another user account at a pedophilia-related site, but I didn't see any actual evidence to support the connection (other than the other identity mentioned the 86sedan Wiktionary block). Also, looking at all of 86sedan's Wiktionary contributions, I don't actually see any advocacy of any illegal act (though I guess something might have been deleted). I am disturbed by 86sedan's contributions here, but we need to be careful not to just believe allegations made against them without carefully checking. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 20:01, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think we did see the same off-wiki discussion, but personally I found the evidence compelling, and it also fits in with the user's repeated whitewashing regarding that very site, seen in the history here: [59] Crossroads ^-talk- 20:32, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, it sounds like we saw the same thing. And I hadn't checked those edits regarding that site, which does indeed make the connection seem more persuasive. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 20:39, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Crossroads: There's more at the same source now, though you may well have already seen it. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:07, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

On point 2, I think a CheckUser check might be warranted here. I think the SOCKLEGIT declaration on 86sedan's userpage satisfies NOTFISHING, as there is a reasonable suspicion of sockpuppetry if the other known account(s) are not blocked. Sideswipe9th (talk) 20:38, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I, too, find the LEGITSOCK claims to be dubious and enough on their own to warrant a CU. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  20:53, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I gotta agree with you there, seems like a CU check should be done considering the touchy subject and the generally dubious claims. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 21:37, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

CU was already run; results are  Inconclusive but indicate someone who is trying to cover their tracks. I actually doubt the account being someone’s actual alt; I believe that’s a cover for trolling. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 02:16, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please see my comments to Tamzin above for discussion and links indicating the sock master and farm most likely at play here, which may or may not include O'Carroll himself, but which do, with a high degree of certainty, involve members of some profoundly hideous community that attempts to lionize him and spread his philosophy of re-contextualizing sexual abuse as a healthy alternative sexuality and lifestyle. These activists have been dealt with here before, but I never did know from what dark corner of the internet they pustuled. I gather some here have now deduced some of those details, and we can put the old violations together with new information and maybe be a little better prepared for them next time. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 04:46, 20 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also Qirtaiba (Jeremy Malcolm) and R alvarez02

Both dormant account Qirtaiba (Jeremy Malcolm of the California-based "charity" Prostasia) and SPA R alvarez02 also indeffed for advocacy in violation of the Wikipedia:Child protection policy. Note: if anyone takes issue with these blocks, please post about it to my talk page as I might not be able to see pings for a few days. Thanks. El_C 05:05, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It might be worth revdelling the AfD's page from revisions 1155011353 to 1155094689, as it includes the same link that was on Qirtaiba's user page as added by R alvarez02. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 16:39, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Replied @User talk:El_C#User:Qirtaiba (diff). El_C 11:21, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Questions for Bbb23

(Bbb23) Related to this block, and only this block

To start, let me make it clear that I know you believed you were acting in the best interest of Wikipedia. But I'm still concerned that your action is going to have a chilling effect on anyone who wishes to raise similar concerns in the future. So I'd appreciate if you answered a few questions:

1. I can find no public apology directed towards MrPinkingShears. Have you done so, privately?
2. It was 13 minutes from MrPinkingShears's report to your block. To the best of your memory, how much of that time did you spend reviewing 22spears' edits, as opposed to MrPinkingShears' edits?
3. Why did you decide to block, instead of warn, or even offer advice, e.g. direct them to ArbCom?
4. Most importantly, what steps will you take in future, if a similar situation comes up? How will you ensure that users are not scared away from reporting potentially harmful editors, out of fear of a block?

Again, I know you meant well, and simply misjudged the situation. But I think a full reckoning will help you, and others, from making similar mistakes in the future. Thank you for your time. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 19:35, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I explained why I blocked right after, including quotes of the personal attacks by MPS, a brand new user. I thought the attacks were egregious and merited an indefinite block. In hindsight, perhaps I should have focused more on 22spears, but although personal attacks may be understandable, that does not make them acceptable. The user's block was overturned fairly quickly. Given all the positive comments by others about MPS's conduct, I doubt that the block had any kind of "chilling effect"; nor do I imagine any future new user will even know about it. This reponse may not be fully satisfactory to you, but it's all I have to say about the issue.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:49, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

One isolated bad block won't create a chilling effect. But a pattern of ill-thought-out BOOMERANG-ish behavior will lead people to mind their own business and not speak up. That's not all on you, of course; ANI would still be a toxic stew without your presence. But I think it would go a long way if you just straight out admitted that you were wrong this one time. That sort of apology can't be forced, of course. I still urge you to reflect. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 02:18, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Your position is contradictory. On the one hand, you're saying no harm done because the community acted swiftly to reverse you. On the other hand, you don't agree that you were wrong in the first place. The community can't possibly review every block you make; it has to trust that you're exercising good judgement. Here, during a very public discussion with many witnesses, you didn't exercise good judgement, and you're declining to engage. Do you see the problem, and will you reconsider? Mackensen (talk) 02:28, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Bbb23 made a reasonable action in the moment, that upon the presentation of further evidence, turned out to be not the correct decision, and it was undone. That further evidence later came out doesn't mean the incorrect decision was made in the moment. --Jayron32 11:49, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Bbb23) Other related matters

This isn't the first time this has happened; they are not a bad admin but they can be quick on the admin tools at times... I hope they will take your suggestions to heart. -- Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 23:10, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've only once ever reversed blocks over the blocking admin's objection, and it was Bbb23's blocks of Slowcolt and Xvixvi because he'd mistaken a group of fans editing about a YouTuber for a sock farm. The former is maybe barely justifiable if one assumes Bbb somehow didn't know that fans of online content creators frequently work together on (often very low-quality) drafts. The latter editor, though, had literally only fixed the formatting of a number on the draft for said YouTuber's associated publicity stunt. Every admin who blocks a lot will get it wrong from time to time (I know I have), but what stood out to me is that Bbb23 explicitly objected to unblocking either, without presenting any evidence of actual policy violation. That wasn't the first time he's done something like this; this won't be the last. He blocks first, asks questions never, and generally seems indignant that his decisions could even be called into question. Bad blocks are only part of a long-term pattern of assumptions of bad faith and hasty actions, which among other things has led to his loss of the CU tool for out-of-process checks, an adverse ArbCom finding of fact for prematurely closing a discussion of another admin's misuse of rollback, and an adverse XRV close for his own misuse of rollback. At a certain point something needs to be done. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 00:34, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've read this like 3-4 times, and the only word that comes to mind is "catty". Bbb23 is not on trial here, your dredging up piles of 3-4 year-old stuff completely unrelated to the simple question posed (which per WP:ADMINACCT, they answered) is conduct unbecoming. Should we start a sub-section about your missteps since becoming an admin, Tamzin? Zaathras (talk) 00:59, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Tamzin's not the admin who blocked a user shortly after that user reported pedo-advocacy, and if it's part of a pattern of short-sighted use of tools, I don't think it's unbecoming to bring the pattern up. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  01:36, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If you'd like more evidence of a pattern, Zaathras: Bbb23's insistence that "collaborating" with other editors is a problem, seen in the Smallcolt/Xvixvi case, is not a one-time thing, nor something that he's desisted from. In July 2021, he blocked Jebbles and Eswong as sox for working together on content; he was reversed, refusing to ackowledge any error. Last month, he blocked Pharmacystudent000 and IloveDPPH for, as best I can tell, collaborating on a userspace draft. He did not justify the latter blocks in response to inquiry, and both blocks were reversed per AN/I. Want more hasty blocks? TomatoBhutan, blocked for drafting a table in their sandbox. This is a persistent problem of poor judgment in use of the blocking tool, and failing to adequately respond to colleagues when queried about these poor blocks. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 02:06, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am concerned that this diff from January 2023 re: the TomatoBhutan block also shows a refusal to admit they were wrong. "I do not oppose giving the user a second chance." A second chance??? When all they were doing was making tables for baseball and professional wrestling articles? That lost them a "first chance"? Beyond My Ken is this really "quite good judgement"? ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  03:15, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

While I share some of Tamzin's concerns regarding Bbb23's approach to blocks, this specific example seems frivolous: off-handedly referring to unblocking someone as "giving a second chance" seems like a reasonable, colloquial expression that does not imply a lack of accountability or insistence on always being right. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 15:54, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I guess I just fail to see how anyone could interpret TomatoBhutan's editing as WP:NOTHERE. I very much appreciate your input here. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  18:38, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Beyond My Ken: I've reverted your close as "Asked and answered". While Bbb may have responded to SoY's question, there is an ongoing discussion here about whether Bbb23's use of the block tool has been in keeping with WP:ADMIN, which—ironically per the ArbCom finding that faulted Bbb23 in GiantSnowman—should not be closed prematurely. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 02:09, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Related matter, Qirtaiba unblock request

Seeing how this whole apple cart is teetering, may as well point out that User:Qirtaiba has had an as-yet-unanswered unblock request up for around 3 hours now. Zaathras (talk) 04:59, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've declined it. – Joe (talk) 08:52, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you both! Btw, I find it curious that the unblock request mentions misinformation by the far-right, seeing as the far-right attempted to soften their image, too, supplanting white supremacist → white separatist — similarly to this insidious pedo → MAP effort. And as they say: birds of a feather. El_C 11:18, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

While you're blocking one professional connected with Prostasia, You might also consider amending the block on Qirtaiba's colleague User:James Cantor to include child protection issues. You can see in this diff [[61]] that User:Qirtaiba manipulating the editors of Cantor's BLP into removing a reference to Cantor's tweet advocating that "P" for pedophile be added into the LGB... string of letters in close proximity to a mention of Prostasia as something controversial. Qirtaiba failed to declare his conflict of interest in wanting to remove the reference to his then employers in connnection with such a clumsy attempt at pedophile advocacy. The Media Matters for America article mentioned in the diff is at https://www.mediamatters.org/gays-against-groomers/florida-expert-formerly-slated-testify-favor-trans-health-care-ban-once and the tweet is included there with Media Matters' explanation of exactly what it is referring to. You can see confirmation at [[62]] that User:James Cantor is indeed James Cantor 82.45.168.246 (talk) 11:42, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That's right, Media Matters for America, a well-known far-right entity! Thanks for the info, IP. It is disturbing. @GeneralNotability: ping blocking admin. El_C 11:57, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but this is not a topic I want to go anywhere near. GeneralNotability (talk) 02:26, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, there's been a significant issue around User:Comp.arch ignoring the talk page consensus established on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Killing_of_Jordan_Neely and then making highly disruptive edits that require combing through the article. (and can't be simply reverted due to conflicts)

The main issue present is at this page they removed the name of the person who did the killing (in the medical sense, not legal) throughout the entire article. [[164]]

A consensus was already established by a 50+ comment length talk page (and another talk section). With consensus both before and after Penny was charged. With the overwhelming consensus to include the name. They had no basis to make these changes.

Right after this they also switched "Penny approached Neely from behind, placing him in a chokehold" To "approached Neely, placing him in a chokehold" [[165]] Removing a key a detail without basis and effectively hiding it behind the large edit that now had to be reverted.

They also broke WP:3RR today. Effectively they've been edit warring while others have been trying improve the article.

They've also made repeated edits around the use of "K2" by one of persons in the article that has had to be reverted several times by many different parties over the past week. [[166]] [[167]] [[168]] [[169]]

And this yesterday which was reverted twice, first by User:WikiVirusC and then by me due to NPOV [[170]] (Line 43, begining section & end)

Overall it's an issue of disruptive editing and WP:NPOV.

LoomCreek (talk) 21:48, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm involved as I voted in the RfC on whether to include the name, but I'm not seeing a particularly clear consensus (certainly not "overwhelming consensus") to include the name there. The more recent discussion has more clear support for including the name, but that didn't start until after Comp.arch's edit removing the name.

As for "removing a key detail" that Neely was choked from behind, the article still included that after Comp.arch's edit. Comp.arch removed it from the lead. Whether or not it should be in the lead seems to me a legitimate content question which should be discussed on the talkpage, not a matter for ANI. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 08:28, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As for the key detail they did in fact remove it from the article bulk with a second edit right after the main one which I had to reintroduce.LoomCreek (talk)

Thanks for reintroducing it, it was a mistake on my part. I was fixing a "bad sentence" I left behind in my other edit, I honestly felt like I was quickly fixing grammar, so I used minor edit checkbox. The part, "from behind" is for sure true, will most likely be brought up at trial. Stating it with his name, what I was getting rid of, per WP:BLPCRIME, makes him look very bad. Without his name in the article I fully support having that phrase in (so my mistake). With his name in the article, then yes it's the truth, but then I'm not sure what to say, we are naming a person doing such apparently bad behaviour. I don't know if it's taught to the Marines to restrain people. It may be the best way. comp.arch (talk) 13:13, 20 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And re. 3RR, the edit history of that page is pretty fast-moving at the moment, so it's even more important than usual that you provide diffs! Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 08:31, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Our policy is very clear: Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons#People accused of crime

This comment is independent of any opinion on Comp.Arch's behaviour; he/she may need sanctioning.

--A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 16:53, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Just to confuse things, there are now 2 separate sections on the talk page where editors are !voting

• the original 6 May RfC, never closed and still active - Talk:Killing of Jordan Neely#Name inclusion
• a new discussion at the bottom - Talk:Killing of Jordan Neely#Name of killer (again)

--A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 18:36, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That's my fault. In a bit of a rush to defuse what I sensed might become a heated situation, I acted too quickly. If any smarter folks have a good plan for combining or otherwise helping out, I would certainly be all for it. My apologies for the unnecessary confusion. Dumuzid (talk) 18:39, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

While I have recused myself from this for a while, since I have been arguing directly with comp.arch and didn't feel as though my opinions would be appropriate, it appears that in this edit, the user struck out another's comment because of, by their own admission, a dispute over policy interpretation. This, IN COMBINATION WITH their persistent inclusion of long swaths of policy/guideline/essay quotes and citations, a meaningful amount of which do not apply to the situation (though admittedly some could easily be misinterpreted) or have repeatedly been addressed and accepted, indicate a potential WP:NOTGETTINGIT situation.

Because of my closeness to the argument, I want to be clear that I am not accusing the editor of intentionally "not getting it" or text-walling to make replying to their posts difficult. I DO believe that they are being bold and adamant about their position, but possibly to the point of disruption. PriusGod (talk) 21:08, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"long swaths of policy/guideline/essay quotes and citation" is at least partially untrue. I make a point of only citing policy. I've read some essays, do not cite them, nor I think guidelines. If I did it even once then you need to jog my memory. I did quote "Resolution 1003 (1993) Ethics of journalism"[171], if you had that in mind with essay. I believe you are in good faith, so please (also others) overstrike what might be untrue, e.g. "guideline/essay". comp.arch (talk) 09:29, 24 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't believe you quoted any essays, but there were edit summaries and Talk comments in which you cited essays and guidelines. Regardless, policies and guidelines are not a strict hierarchy, and essays can be a useful way to demonstrate one's interpretation of a specific policy - treating them as though they are irrelevant, or that a policy is always stronger than a guideline and citations of essays have no place in policy disputes is a very effective way to build a lot of ill will towards yourself, and is the core reason why I characterize your behavior in this situation as wikilawyering. Once again, I believe that you have no intent to that end, but that is how your actions are coming across. PriusGod (talk) 15:47, 24 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The main issue is I think the killers name, that I removed once (per policies), got reverted (I hadn't read all of the former [non]consensus talk on the name on Talk (back then just one any many non-RfC entries), (after this discussion here, that I'm first now seeing), reported WP:LIBEL a more serious policy violation, some one took action since that was actually a serious BLP violation), and I notified Nemov then when I struck out his incorrect statement regarding policy, in an RfC discussion, to not mislead others, and help him, and talked with him on his talk page, where he responded: Nemov: "I removed that bit by mistake. You can restore the pre-strike version if you wish."[172] I want to be very careful about editing it again, or even better if someone does it.

In NY Times "spent 15 months in jail, the police said" was in the article as some alternative to incarceration, and it's one of the things I changed, quoting the source, and got reverted back to that supposed alternative. I believe I've been improving the article at every turn, I often back down and keep stuff left out or such (seeming) misinfo to persist, to not revert too much. I don't believe I'm the most trigger-happy with the reverts. I assume WP:good_faith of all involved, but that is not assumed by me, or was put into doubt in an edit summary. I'm not sure it belongs there, but I immediately took note of it. On 3RR I see WP:NOT3RR: "7. Removing contentious material that is libelous [..]". In my timezone, I'm not sure I did many reverts per day. I often use revert to actually notify the other person if I believe mistaken or violating policy to give them heads up, as a courtesy. Everyone makes mistakes, if I did I apologize. E.g. omitting "from behind" wasn't actually my intention. I didn't recall that one, [EDIT: I see I actually didn'tDID to that, as misreported above about me. Thanks for pointing it out.] I spent a LOT of time on that edit (summary; that I felt very important), and others, looking stuff up. comp.arch (talk) 21:54, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have no idea what's going on with this editor but this... I notified Nemov then when I struck out his incorrect statement regarding policy, in an RfC discussion, to not mislead others, and help him, and talked with him on his talk page. It's not comp.arch's role as an editor to strike other editor's comments because they disagree. This is bizarre behavior and I asked comp.arch to leave my edits alone. Nemov (talk) 21:58, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to note that you're citing #7 under 3RRNO, specifically the exception about "libelous" material - in terms of protecting Wikipedia from legal liability, saying the man's name and noting that he has been charged is not libelous because it is truthful. That being said, I don't feel as though you were warring over that, anyway, just that the specific way you scrubbed his name resulted in very clunky grammar (and at times as-of-then unsourced additions). PriusGod (talk) 22:06, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, yes, the claimed 3RR came before me reporting to oversight, but it was taken seriously (and the "murder" redirect dropped). I don't feel like the number of reverts in which 24 period is the most important matter (I realize it's a bright line), I'm not going to start counting, people will just need to be specific and I can look into it. BLP policy allows you to be bold when there is a violation, and I just believe I've been moving quickly. In some cases possibly too quickly, and BLP or NOT3RR may not always have applied, as any excuse. comp.arch (talk) 22:17, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comp.arch struck another editor's comments from the RfC yesterday (Sangdeboeuf's). I have restored and documented it here. This was three days after striking Nemov's comment and being warned about it.

I also believe that comp.arch's comments in this section and the associated edits to the main article are pertinent to this discussion. Combefere ★ Talk 19:03, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• I believe there's enough here to warrant some kind of sanction. The editor has been counting votes in that RfC, striking other editor's comments, and removing other editor's comments. It's clear there's a behavioral problem and I had hoped that this discussion would help deter future bad behavior, but apparently it's not happening. Nemov (talk) 21:31, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I tend to agree. The scale, scope, and contradictory nature of the disruptive edits — removing key information from the article incorrectly citing BLP, while at the same time persistently inventing POV-pushing derogatory language that violates BLP, without trying to build consensus, breaking 3RR, forcing other editors to create an RfC to respond to the disruptive edits, then flooding the RfC with wall-of-text and I-can't-hear-you type comments, and removing multiple comments of editors who disagree with them, after being warned to stop, all on a politically charged article about an ongoing event — stretch the limit of one's ability to AGF. But regardless of comp.arch's intentions, the disruption simply needs to stop. Combefere ★ Talk 23:31, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  "removing multiple comments of editors who disagree" is I feel the most serious untrue allegation here. I deleted ONE by accident, and struck out, i.e. overstricking, basically highlighted his comment, a disruptive comment because IT was disrupting the RfC process, while notifying that user. So how is two, multiple? "removing key information from the article incorrectly citing BLP", was that his name? Please be very specific in all allegations. comp.arch (talk) 09:29, 24 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Yeah, I was doing my best to be polite and genuinely did believe at the time that the editor's behavior was simply overbearing and not malicious and warranted only a warning - but a second talk page comment removal, ESPECIALLY an opposing vote on an RfC is frankly beyond the pale. Not to mention that they said on their talk page they were refraining from participating in the conversation, then continued on. I agree with Combefere, AGF is strained here and the conversation needs to be allowed to continue without being interfered with like this. Edit 15:16, 24 May 2023 (UTC): I've addressed in my comment in the "Discussion" section below that I'm aware the removal was not intentional. If anyone is going to use my statements as part of their rationale for a !vote or an action, please read that comment first, as it affects what I've said about AGF in this situation. PriusGod (talk) 03:57, 23 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I already explained here, the deletion of the second comment was (a glitch? ) my mistake.

Proposal: Temp block for Comp.arch

1. Bludgeoning discussion even after the ANI was filed.

2. Striking, modifying, and deleting other editor's comments.

Asking this editor to modify their behavior isn't working. I was leaning TBAN, but I'm not sure how it would be applied at this time. Given the number of edits that Comp.arch has made on that RfC a temp block would be wise for the editor to get the point. - Nemov (talk) 13:14, 23 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

• Support Editor doesn't seem to be learning a lesson and continues to ignore direction. Based on the comment below I'm not sure this is heading in a positive direction. Nemov (talk) 21:39, 23 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose I really don't want to spend time defending myself here more, just feel it might be part of the process. I want[ed] to edit; (e.g.) page on, presumed innocent, person, so he has a fair Wikipedia page (it still isn't). And I did, well still do, think the best way for a non-public/non-notable person to have a fair page, is to not have one in his name (well his name in it; before it named him basically in Wikivoice as a murderer), until found guilty (of his non-murder charge), where people are e.g. naming him a person doing lynching, from WP:UNDUE Twitter source. The news shouldn't have named him, but at least they do not include such an opinion, on their pages. Fo all I know they got his name from Wikipeda not the other way around. I'm thinking of the precedent. How low is the bar on WP: How minor does the charge have to be do add a person's name to WP? comp.arch (talk) 23:31, 23 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per my comments above and below. Combefere ★ Talk 23:43, 23 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Weak support but would prefer seeking a TBAN or maybe PB because look at their block log and contribs - looks (to me) like years and years of careful editing with a single, temporary, 3rr block 9 years ago. One taste of the proverbial blood in a BLPCRIME case and they are editing up a storm. I am concerned that any further escalation in comp.arch's behavior, or any severe administrative action, would lose us an otherwise very valuable contributor. Nevertheless, the conversation is being disrupted. PriusGod (talk) 00:13, 24 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

• I have not answered for all the untruths in the original unexpected ANI. I'm not even sure if I'm expected to answer here. And now for this Proposal from Nemov:

Nobody asked me to change behavior (one allegation of not acting in good faith, then bam ANI; I assume good faith of all in 10+ years, and others of me until now)?! Is that implicit in ANI? Not sure what TBAN is.

2. No modifying of editor's comments; except that one time when you claimed BLP was a guideline, and I edited it to policy (I stopped even editing other's others typos, such as yours above [EDIT: My point was I would have, help others that way, no longer dare to even touch those]. That was the same edit I struck out your comment to make it obvious to you, and others, by notifying you so that you could simply fix it. I deleted one comment by honest mistake. If we're going to do an RfC (or ANI), bringing up policy then it needs to fair, not lies about it (I didn't claim you were doing that intentionally, but seems disingenuous what you're doing now). I've never participated in an ANI before, in my over a decade of very successful Wikipedia editing, let alone mine, so do I need to read those policies too, or get a lawyer to defend, or just abandon Wikipedia?

Your incredible Support comment in an RfC with untruth that I struck out is here. I.e. "WP:BLP guidelines", no, they are polices. You point to an RfC with "No consensus to include for now." and you do not support doing the same, rather ignore that precedent, if you will, which was for a double murder of kids, rather than follow it for the non-murder (i.e. second-degree manslaughter; negligence), then following WP policies is too dogmatic! There's no consensus on including the name, there's actually non-consensus (3% against including by my last count), and also bias in the articlee.g. see here, I would claim I'm not the one with WP:NPOV, others are, and people, not just me, claim that.

1. I've participated in RfC, that was started after ANI (and almost stopped editing the article itself after ANI), there was no RfC or consensus before, none to ignore, I read all edit summaries and in case I'm reverted. Should I read talk pages before anyone reverts me? comp.arch (talk) 18:02, 23 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not really interested in further discussing your simple content dispute grievances. You're still justifying your behavioral problems which only strengthens the case for sanctions. Nemov (talk) 18:10, 23 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Pointed remarks such as I stopped even editing other's [sic] typos, such as yours above (emphasis mine) are very transparently bitter and serve no purpose other than to antagonize or insult other editors. This falls especially flat when that comment, pointing out the typos of others, has a typo in it. Someone proud of their over a decade of very successful Wikipedia editing should be aware how big of a no-no it is to modify another's talk page posts without permission. Without wanting to pick apart everything in this comment, I'd caution you that between your attitude and trying to get out of this squeaky-clean by only admitting the bare minimum fault, you're unlikely to get you the result you want. It's my belief that if you want to continue to constructively contribute to Wikipedia in the ways and places you want to, you would benefit greatly from a softened attitude and some humility. GabberFlasted (talk) 18:45, 23 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I will admit all of my faults here, if that's the point of the trial here. I want the trial to be fair, people not misrepresenting what I've actually done. WP:NOT3RR also has other exceptions, e.g. for "bias". I believed I was doing a good job editing the article until LoomCreek stated he no longer believed in my good faith (in an edit summary). Have I done a single edit on the actual page since then, he (or others) disagree with? He followed up straight away with ANI. I believed he did that in good faith (and I thanked him for it), and I still believe he did that that. But I didn't see him bring up a point that is valid (at that time), me breaking a policy; or if he thinks so, which wasn't allowed by exception, so he was simply mistaken. I believe I've always backed down on editing the page. For the Talk page, have I bean obsessive, YES! This ANI didn't help with that. comp.arch (talk) 23:12, 23 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Nobody asked me to change behavior" – I did, on 5/17. Nemov did, on 5/18. LoomCreek did on 5/18. PriusGod did on 5/18. A.B. did on 5/19.

After all of these requests to change your behavior, you have continued to overwhelm the talk page with walls of text full of misapplied links to wiki policies, and hyperbolic misrepresentations of other editors' comments. 72.14.126.22 had to ask you to drop the stick again today. Combefere ★ Talk 21:36, 23 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am willing to believe that it was an honest mistake to remove the other editor's talk page comment, but comp.arch, if you, a veteran editor with a decade's worth of experience and good contributions to the project, are getting so worked up that you end up accidentally deleting people's comments in an RfC, I don't think it is healthy for you to continue to be a part of this discussion. You've cited enough policy and made enough arguments for anyone who comes to the RfC to be convinced, if they ever will be. Do remember that much of (I am aware that that there some cut-and-dry rules) WP policy is not set in stone and not to be obeyed as law, and that the specific content policy that is in dispute at this article has a long history of being hotly debated and recognized as ambiguously written from both people who want it to be stricter and those who want it to be more lenient. PriusGod (talk) 23:55, 23 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Regretfully, I have opened a section on this page because User:MaranoFan has refused to retract lies they wrote about me and is falsely accusing me of acting in bad faith. I apologize for the length, but I need to clear my name.

23:19, May 14, 2023 MaranoFan opens Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Takin' It Back/archive1.

00:42, May 15, 2023 As I was on WP:FAC at the exact same minute adding comments at 23:19, May 14, 2023 to a different review, I noticed MaranoFan's nomination and made comments. (I wasn't stalking their edit history looking for their next nomination and how I could "derail" it). At the end of the review, I wrote that "Overall I wish the nomination was more prepared. For example, MOS:CONFORMTITLE has been brought up by three different reviewers in four of the nominator's last seven FACs, and yet it is mostly ignored again. I would have expected it to be addressed before nominating at this point." Having reviewed some of MaranoFan's previous nominations, I found it a bit odd for an experienced editor to nominate multiple articles with the same issues and fail to prepare future nominations based on previous feedback. Reviewers have limited time, and pointing out the same things every other nomination is frustrating. I could have written "oppose", but in good faith did not as I believed most of the comments could be addressed quickly.

07:31, May 15, 2023 MaranoFan addresses the comments.

09:59, May 15, 2023 I add two follow-ups.

15:47, May 15, 2023 MaranoFan addresses the follow-ups.

04:35, May 16, 2023 MaranoFan comments at Wikipedia:Peer review/My Man (Tamar Braxton song)/archive1 : "the Spotify/Apple Music refs do not seem to confirm to MOS:CONFORMTITLE. This should probably be fixed before an FAC, lest someone moan about it there, lol."

06:46, May 16, 2023 MaranoFan comments on my talk page: "Since your initial opposition to my nomination was strongly worded, I think it would be good if it was explicitly indicated in the form of a !vote that you are satisfied with the changes, so as to not turn away prospective reviewers. Thank you in advance."

To write on a reviewer's talk page asking them to !vote less than 36 hours after the review began is bizarre. I was about to support, but being basically guilted into making a vote offended me. There was never any indication that I wouldn't support, and I was mostly off Wikipedia at the time, so I really don't understand why MaranoFan felt the need to come to my talk page when the review was less than two days old and the nomination was less than two days old. It's not like my temporary lack of a !vote was "holding up" promotion. Again, there wasn't even an "oppose" to strike, and yet MaranoFan described my original comments as "opposition". I just hadn't written "support" yet because I hadn't come back to the FAC and checked if my follow-up comments were addressed. For that, MaranoFan felt the need to come to my talk page? No other editor has ever done that. This felt very over the top and points to their false belief that I have an agenda against them. I have never even opposed any of their past nominations, so I don't understand where their anxiety is coming from.

16:38, May 16, 2023 I had been tracking progress at Wikipedia:Peer review/My Man (Tamar Braxton song)/archive1 and planned on making comments as I had frequented many of that nominator's projects before (Again, not "stalking" MaranoFan's edit history). But combined with their comment there and the—in my opinion ridiculous—request on my talk page, I felt disrespected and wrote on Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Takin' It Back/archive1: "Everything has been addressed, but because the nominator has characterized my indication of MOS:CONFORMTITLE issues as "moaning", I am not in a position to support as this feels disrespectful to my time and the process." Given that the MOS:CONFORMTITLE "moan" comment came less than 24 hours after I noted MOS:CONFORMTITLE issues on their FAC, I logically inferred that MaranoFan was referring to my comments. I took that as a slight because I am simply reviewing to the WP:FACR criteria, which includes following the MOS. I expect others to have respect for the process and not consider noting MOS issues a "moan". Sorry if that sounds corny, but when I spend an hour reviewing an article, I expect a little respect for the process.

16:59, May 16, 2023 MaranoFan moves the entire review to the FAC talk page, writing in the edit summary: "Moved to talk to reduce page loading time as user has expressed wish to withdraw from the review process." Nowhere did I ever "expressed wish to withdraw from the review process". In fact, I said "Everything has been addressed", indicating that the review was complete, not that I withdrew. Just because there isn't a "support" vote doesn't mean the reviewer "withdrew" the review. MaranoFan blatantly lied that I "expressed wish to withdraw from the review process". I never said that explicitly nor implicitly. They moved the review to the talk page under false pretenses.

This is not the first time MaranoFan has lied that I have withdrawn from reviews of their FACs. 16:18, November 8, 2022 they accused me of "Abandoning completed source and prose reviews on my nomination". In fact, I had not come back to it (for one day... the horror) because they never indicated that my follow-up comment at 19:56, November 7, 2022 was addressed. In good faith, I then voted to support promotion and passed the source review after reviewing the nominated article's revision history. But nominators are supposed to indicate when changes have been made; it's not the reviewers job to go into the edit history for every comment and see what happened. Through their multiple lies about my "expressed wish to withdraw from the review process" and "abandoning completed source and prose reviews", MaranoFan has maligned my reputation at WP:FAC. They are implying that I randomly withdraw from reviews in bad faith, which is untrue. Their consistent language of "abandoning" and "withdraw" when I don't provide a !vote indicates that they fundamentally do not understand the WP:FAC review process. Nominations are not entitled to a !vote just because prose comments are addressed.

05:27, May 17, 2023 MaranoFan comments on FAC coordinator Gog the Mild's talk page, stating: "Hi, Gog! I wanted to ask if you could review my new FAC. I liked some of your recent reviews, and it would be a good confidence building measure after someone who seems to be competitive about Four Awards (my nom would be eligible for the same award) tried to derail it by starting political arguments." This is another lie and aspersion that I set out to ruin their nomination. They have a, quite frankly, worrying preconceived notion that I am out to "get them" and that my comments on their FAC are there to intentionally "derail it" because I am apparently in a Four Award rivalry with them and thus don't want it to pass. This is just so absurd. I have one Four Award, which I self-nominated two years after I was eligible (I would actually have two, but chose not to do a DYK for the other one). MaranoFan is casting baseless aspersions. Where is the evidence I am "someone who seems to be competitive about Four Awards" and that that influenced my review? They are apparently irked that I recently created and nominated Clown (Mariah Carey song) for DYK and GA (which they indicated they would review). MaranoFan is reading into things that are not there and are trying to create drama where none exists.

08:01, May 17, 2023 Gog the Mild comments on the FAC talk page.

08:32, May 17, 2023 MaranoFan replies, implying that I stalked them.

11:59, May 17, 2023 I reply, asking MaranoFan to retract their lies and aspersions about my edits and intentions.

13:29, May 17, 2023 MaranoFan responds.

14:47, May 17, 2023 MaranoFan comments on my talk page, saying I should defer to their talk page for comments.

14:50, May 17, 2023 I strike the comments implying a personal attack on me from the FAC review.

14:49, May 17, 2023 I indicate this on MaranoFan's talk page and ask that they reciprocate by retracting their lie about my purported withdrawal from the review and baseless aspersions about why I reviewed the FAC to begin with.

16:42, May 17, 2023 MaranoFan refuses and says that my actions "blatantly indicates malicious intent".

MaranoFan has put words in my mouth and refused to retract when given multiple chances, even when I did the same for them by striking certain comments. They have cast bizarre aspersions about me derailing their FAC nomination to win a Four Award competition to which I have no knowledge of. They seem to have preconceived notions that I continuously act in bad faith toward them as part of some secret agenda, which I find disturbing. Heartfox (talk) 02:45, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This user was not active on this peer review before my comments, and it is considered "too large to display" on WP:PR, there is almost no way they stumbled upon it through anything except going through my contributions. This comment was based on a misunderstanding, I just did not bother striking it since it was made on this user's own talk page. It, under no circumstances, "maligned [their] reputation at WP:FAC", as no one except them saw it. Heartfox, meanwhile, has pursued their outrageous aspersion based on a lie (which explicitly maligns my respect for the FAC process, and I have documented in the section below), at public pages like my nomination at FAC, which is currently transcluded right near the top of WP:FACGO and is amplified to the whole FAC community (pageviews: 312, 198). Pretending that this minimal amount of striking changes anything is ridiculous, since it is still clearly a bad faith comment. Yes, I have taken up a review of their current GAN because I wanted to thank them for their participation on my last few FACs. I took that up in good faith before they cast their aspersion on my nomination, not sure how that means I am "irked"... The above paragraph is just a bunch of random things thrown together to distract from their bad faith comment at my FAC, which they are fighting desperately to get restored for visibility at the main FAC page.--NØ 08:00, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Aspersions and bullying from User:Heartfox

Filing report I had been drafting as a subsection.

User:Heartfox produced a review for an article, slightly over an hour after I nominated it at FAC, which was unusually pessimistically worded and seemed off right away. Within the one hour of me having nominated it, they had self-admittedly gone through seven of my prior successful FACs looking for something that could be used to call my current FAC underprepared, which is an unusual amount of dedication as well. I addressed their decently lengthy review within a few hours. At this point, the nomination was going well and attracted a second review which was more positive. A while later, Heartfox was back and admitted their whole review had been addressed, but instead of supporting the nomination, they picked out a bit from a completely different peer review I had conducted recently (which did not involve or mention them whatsoever), and cast a bad faith WP:ASPERSION that would negatively impact future reviewer participation, that read: "Everything has been addressed, but because the nominator has characterized my indication of MOS:CONFORMTITLE issues as "moaning", I am not in a position to support as this feels disrespectful to my time and the process.". Since this included an admission that 100% of their comments had been addressed, and that they would refuse to further participate by indicating a !vote, I moved it to the talk page, something I had seen coords do before and that seemed relatively uncontroversial to me. They are now campaigning to get the aspersions restored on the main review page, despite it being pointed out again and again that my comment was not about them. They have now struck two words in their comment but it is still worded in a way which discourages reviewer participation on my nomination. They are now leaving passive aggressive messages on my talk page, and are still stalking my contributions and quoting comments I made on other users' talk pages. They have stated a bunch of times that all of their comments have been addressed, but they refuse to support my nomination which I think is indicative of their intentions. I am sorry but this seems like a dedicated campaign to embarrass me, which they concocted within minutes of me nominating this article. This user is an FAC frequenter, and I will not feel safe ever nominating another article if nothing is done about it. I apologize for bringing this to ANI but I have put in blood, sweat and tears developing my reputation at FAC over the years, and I think seeking an IBAN with this user to preserve it is worth it.--NØ 07:09, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not much to add, Heartfox seems to have ran to ANI because I had indicated I will start a discussion about them here if their bullying continues. This seems like an effort to beat me in time to add some sort of credibility to their defense. And by bringing up some interaction between us from November 2022, that I had long forgotten about, they seem to have confirmed they were holding a grudge against me during their initial review itself. Given that they have now started a discussion to embarrass me here, after attempting this on my review page and by pinging FAC coords on its talk page multiple times (and now here), I am now formally seeking an IBAN as this has become too much to deal with.--NØ 07:09, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It would appear that a two-way IBAN would be helpful for both of you. @Heartfox: Any thoughts? QuicoleJR (talk) 14:07, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This is getting crazy. MaranoFan is mad that I had the audacity to refer to their previous nominations and how they are wasting reviewers' time with the same issues. I was involved in those past FACs and was one of the previous reviewers; of course bringing up previous nominations is relevant. I simply did basic research to get the exact number so as to not cast aspersions with no evidence, as MaranoFan has done repeatedly over the past few days. They continue to feel entitled to a support !vote and that its absence somehow indicates I had malicious intent going into the review and "concocted" a plan to embarrass them. MaranoFan has still not retracted the lies they wrote about my edits and intentions, and are now casting new aspersions. An IBAN because this user cannot take basic criticism, which, again, did not even involve an "oppose", seems like an attempt to evade any criticism of their FACs. Heartfox (talk) 16:00, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No one is "evading any criticism of their FACs", all content-related comments at my FAC were met constructively and addressed. The last five paragraphs of essays written on my FAC have involved absolutely nothing related to the article in question. I am not sure why this user came to ANI if they are not seeking an IBAN. Seems to confirm that they are WP:FORUMSHOPPING to embarrass me on different pages and to get someone to validate their hatred for me. Everyone has not died. There are other people who can raise content-related issues on my future FACs. The fact that they are writing essays upon essays about how bad I am yet oppose an IBAN absolutely foreshadows such disruption repeating on my future projects. They had previously stated they would avoid me in the future, but they sought drama at another one of my nominations. This is a repeat habit with this user and they seem to enjoy publically bullying others to apologize. It is also worth noting they started an ANI discussion about me a few hours after I explicitly asked to be left alone. I am not sure how they want me to "retract" something I said in an edit summary... This blatant WP:ASPERSION intended to character-assasinate me to prospective reviewers is disruptive, it is not related to improvement of the article in question. I would be fine if they just did not support, but they left a comment to intentionally dissuade others from reviewing my FAC. If they had a problem with my comments at another PR it should have been brought to my talk page.--NØ 16:50, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Then what would you recommend? QuicoleJR (talk) 16:13, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That they be blocked for incivility unless they retract/strike their lie about my purported "wish to withdraw from the review process", their aspersion that I am "someone who seems to be competitive about Four Awards", their aspersion that I am "still stalking [their] contributions", their aspersion that "this seems like a dedicated campaign to embarrass [them], which [I] concocted", their aspersion that I am "bullying" them, and their aspersion that I "ran to ANI" because MaranoFan had indicated they might do so (As I said at the top, I did so because they refused to retract lies after being given multiple opportunities). I have now struck the entire "moan" comment. Heartfox (talk) 16:53, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Very well. I will leave this to an admin to make a decision. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:55, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Striking seems random. FAC pages get a lot of views so I want the offtopic comment removed entirely. Once that's done, I am ready to hear what the other user wants me to delete.--NØ 17:17, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's not random, I was following WP:RUC. Nonetheless, I have removed the stricken text per your request. Heartfox (talk) 18:45, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@MaranoFan: Is this an improvement? QuicoleJR (talk) 18:48, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

QuicoleJR, thank you so much for following this so closely and talking to me respectfully. I have never needed this more than in the past two days. Anyways, I have the same position about the IBAN.--NØ 20:00, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You are welcome, Marano. I know from experience how stressful the site can be at times, so I have been trying to counteract that for others. One question: Do you still support an IBAN? Your comment on that was a bit ambiguous. QuicoleJR (talk) 20:02, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. That is a necessary step to prevent disruption going forward in my opinion. I am firm on that stand. The fact that I have been badmouthed as much as I have been over here but a voluntary IBAN has been refused makes me seriously question what's in store for the future. I haven't slept at all since this discussion erupted, and I doubt anybody here wants a repeat of this. A long-term solution like an IBAN is necessary. This section is getting lengthy so I'll leave the discussion to third parties now.--NØ 22:27, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]