The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

To whom it may concern:

Hello. I was banned from en.wp back in the summer of 2020 ( § ) after an ill-conceived tussle with El C about a temporary block from the Edward Colston page. At the time, it was suggested I come back in six months. When I did, I didn't stick out my appeal until the end. Since then, I've waited about two years to ask again, to be sure that any trace of annoyance had disappeared, at least on my end.

In the time I've been away, I've made roughly 5000 contributions to non-en.wp wmf projects:

• 2500 Commons (including about 400 photos)
• 1500 fr.wp
• 650 wdata

I've also made minor edits to other projects ranging from haitian to latin.

The disruption to my en.wp contributions also gave me the chance to do some work on my own mediawiki for which I sincerely thank all those involved. I've also worked a bit on the French version of one of the last en.wp articles I created before I left. It's about the Gère river. (fr | en)

It will probably come up that I frequent WPO. Since joining over there in Dec. 2016, I've never to my knowledge caused any serious problems, nor have I ever been thrown out, which suggests I may not be such a bad egg as all that. Here and there things I've said there or that have happened to me have led to changes at en.wp (in articles, policy) or have caused an occasional ripple.

I would say that what I've learned is that things on wiki go fast. Too fast. What starts out at as a minor thing can quickly be escalated into something that wastes a lot of time and leads to disrupted work. Sometimes, as I mentioned above, disruption can be productive, but most of the time it isn't, and it's better to always strive to deescalate. I'm not here to test boundaries. I know I can't edit GMOs, Am-Pol or WP:AE. Best practice will be to keep away from those who might tend to rile me up. I do think that the past two years of on-wiki production at data, commons, fr.wp show that I'm able to colloborate, as well as contribute.

The immediate impetus to this request was a request for file-mover tools at Commons, during which my en.wp ban was brought up as a reason to be circumspect. So, it seemed to me like perhaps the time has come to resolve this.

How about we get out the calumet and agree to peacefully co-exist? :)

SashiRolls (talk) 14:12, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Copied from c:Special:PermaLink/719472438 per utrs:67199 — JJMC89 (T·C) 01:07, 25 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• First! 👍 P.S. I think I was first in the last appeal, too. But I can't immediately find it. Whatever I said then, though, still. El_C 01:48, 25 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Special:PermaLink/1000836596#Ban_removal_request_of_SashiRolls. 97.120.124.88 (talk) 08:29, 25 December 2022 (UTC) Fixed link, pretty sure this is where it should be pointing. Primefac (talk) 13:56, 25 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Is everyone else seeing that red gg+ button in the mobile thingy? It takes you to your notifications for some reason! El_C 21:58, 25 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  You seem to be referring to the notifications icon. Everyone logged in on mobile should see it and should go to their notifications when they click on it, as has been the case for ?~8 years. However not everyone will have 99+ "unread" notifications so their number will vary. The colour will also vary depending on whether the mobile site considers there are new notifications, somewhat akin to the desktop site but their newness is handled different. Nil Einne (talk) 23:23, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Hm. I find myself looking at [1] in an inability to personally desire the described person's return to a community I'm a part of. A request for an "agree[ment] to peacefully co-exist" sounds as if the community had denied this opportunity to you. That's probably not correct. They threw you out because you weren't able to do so. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 17:48, 25 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• I find it concerning that the request doesn't contain a single hint of acceptance of responsibility for any behavior that led to the ban. Schazjmd (talk) 18:06, 25 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Reply to @Schazjmd:: some expansions on text included in my appeal with more straightforwardly mea culpa formulations

  ill-conceived tussle

  I shouldn't have done it.

  things on wiki go fast. Too fast.

  I should have known that, recognized my limitations, and acted with more kindness. I apologize.

  I know I can't edit XYZ

  I had problems there before, so I won't be going back.

  keep away from those who might rile me up

  I can be riled up. This is one of my limitations. I am here on the projects to build an encyclopedia and must not let myself get distracted by that limitation.

  it's better to strive to deescalate

  I shouldn't have escalated with El Commandante, he's a good egg. Or with anyone else, whether big-, middle-, mixed-, or little-endian. I will strive, again, for kindness and calm.

  I am able to collaborate.

  I gave some people reason to wonder about this.

  Revisiting the specific disputes and the snark that, in part, got me thrown out, or the modifications to policy that resulted from it, strikes me as being mostly a bad idea. Other than my sincere apologies to anyone I offended and the analysis of my errors above, I don't know what good resassing the past will do. Except to remind me, I guess, that I shouldn't be snarky.

  Wiki moves fast. Being bold in a land full of complicated templates means that things break when you forget a pipe, a field, a tilda, a closing </spanner>, or put a semi-colon where the parser expected a colon. You can usually fix things with patience though.

  Proposal: 3-month review at AN, renewable. I would accept having a parole officer. If anyone is willing to keep an eye on me, I hereby promise you it will be very boring as far as PvP-drama goes.

  SashiRolls (talk) 22:17, 25 December 2022 (UTC) Copied from c:Special:PermaLink/719762216 — JJMC89 (T·C) 05:04, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm not sure how big of a requirement 'accepting responsibility' is. The only thing that's required is that problematic behaviour not repeat. People aren't really required to drop their pride and accept wrongdoing, or even to honestly feel that they acted improperly; they only need to convince that the same behaviour won't resume. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 22:12, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  You raise an interesting point. Strictly speaking, that's true, in that future conduct is, indeed, what matters. As I see it, this isn't about policing thought, but rather it's about the confidence that the community can have in the request. It's all too easy to promise that one will stay away from trouble, so it becomes important for the community to have some insight into how credible such promises are. When the unban request contains a well thought out acknowledgement of what the past concerns were, that enhances confidence. But when, as I believe is the case here, the request seems to deflect any suggestion of personal responsibility (and this has been a pattern over numerous previous appeals by this user), then it becomes reasonable for editors to be skeptical. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:27, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  That's a really good point. Part of an appeal is demonstrating there is no longer a WP:PREVENTATIVE need for the sanction. Deflecting, not acknowledging, etc. behavior issues that led to the ban, is usually an indication that preventative sanctions are still needed for the future. It's not a matter of penance with your hat in hand begging for mercy, etc. KoA (talk) 22:43, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  ProcrastinatingReader says above: People aren't really required to drop their pride and accept wrongdoing, or even to honestly feel that they acted improperly; they only need to convince that the same behaviour won't resume

  I agree wit this and also with what Tryptofish says in reply: Strictly speaking, that's true, in that future conduct is, indeed, what matters.

  The only thing we need to determine here, as a community, is whether we think SashiRolls will act like this again, within any stone's throw of reasonable likelihood. Bans aren't punitive, yada yada. I think this person has waited a long enough time, in proportion to the initial infraction, that we can be reasonable sure they won't disrupt the project again. And all we risk is coming back here to reinstate a ban.

  To help guarantee that, I agree with GizzyCatBella on Conditional Support with a 1-way IBAN with Volunteer Marek and a TBAN from Russia and Eastern Europe (including Poland). These particular sub-sanctions can be revisited in time, when and if the user shows themselves capable of behaving appropriately on wiki. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 15:13, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Obviously, I appreciate that you agree with what I said, but I've been thinking about it, and I want to clarify what I meant, because the way that you quoted me gives my quote a meaning slightly different than what I intended. I'm not looking for policing thought, as I said, but in evaluating what to expect from future conduct, I believe it's entirely fair to look at how an appeal is framed. And the opening appeal strikes me as being like I'm really not such a bad person, and I hope that WP will realize that now. Subsequent promises have been worded much better, but, after so many prior bans and appeals, it feels to me like this has been coached. In the end, it looks to me like editors who support the appeal are persuaded by the work on other projects and editors who oppose are persuaded by the long history of repeated harassment and sanction violations, and someone with a paygrade higher than mine will have to figure out what the consensus is. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:18, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. As someone who was frequently the target of unpleasantness from this user, I feel very strongly that this is not something where the community should give the benefit of the doubt and give another chance, but instead it is something where it is entirely the responsibility of the user to demonstrate, without coaching, that they truly understand their own responsibility for the ban and that they have a clear idea of how to become a net positive. This is all the more important because this was made very, very clear by the community in all of the previous unban requests. What I see above is, instead, something like I'm really not so bad and I hope that WP will agree with me about that. That's not OK. (Also, I look at WPO from time to time, and what I see there is this user posting stuff that's just kind of strange, and the other WPO people ignoring it and talking around it. When you get to the point where WPO people treat you with WP:DENY, it's time to look for another hobby.) --Tryptofish (talk) 18:29, 25 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Point of information. (Sashi, I see you still don't have talk page access here, but I assume you're watching here and that if you respond on Commons or Meta or some other place, someone with more gravitas than I will copy it over.) The disputes that led to your being banned were off my radar or before my time. I'm doubly ill-equipped to express an opinion since despite defensive Latin and adequate French, I frequently can't follow what you post at WO, and just had to look up calumet. I quite understand that you're more concerned these days with editing at Commons and (ugh) Wikidata, and that may continue to be the case even if your ban here is vacated; I note your statement above about avoiding problem areas and editors with whom you have had disputes; and I understand you're subject to various topic restrictions ... but I'd like to see what you say in response to a simple question: what kind of editing do you envisage doing here on en.wikipedia if the ban is ended? Yngvadottir (talk) 02:19, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I’ve restored talk page for the duration of the appeal, so they can answer your (and others’) questions. Floquenbeam (talk) 03:13, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Reply to @Yngvadottir:

  Hi again! First off, happy Yule tidings!

  You are right to assume that I would not be very likely to abandon fr.wp, commons, and data to become an exclusive en.wp editor. One of the things I most appreciated about this time while blocked is that it convinced me to dare to edit fr.wp (French is not my native language.) I've found people to be very helpful and forgiving over there concerning gender mistakes and grammar matters.

  The coverage in English Wikipedia of the area where I live is not very good. I talked about this a bit over at WPO, mentioning some problems with Anne-Sophie Pic's bio over here. They got fixed. (Thanks, again!)

  Chances are very good that I will find pages to improve about French cities, mountains, regions, and river valleys (the Gère valley and the Rhône valley in particular). I see that a few of my photos were added to the Vienne page while I was gone, for example. There being no page for the ViaRhôna at all I could probably create one... :)

  As a jazz fan, I may occasionally also be able to translate information about local artists, e.g. Camille Bertault or Naïssam Jalal.

  If I get particularly ambitious I could translate some of the truly excellent work Zythème has done describing Rabelais' Book Four and its critical reception. (no page on en.wp)

  In short, there is no shortage of gaps in the English-language encyclopedia's coverage of Francophone letters, geography, and culture. I believe this would probably be my primary mission, with music and linguistics as likely other areas of interest. (I wrote a short article about Pierre Vernet, for example, before leaving en.wp. I see that the English article on en:Antoine Culioli could use some significant work.)

  And you know, as an active reader, things are always coming up. One of my favorite recent reads was John McWhorter's ("English is not normal"). Maybe there's something of value to pull out of such articles.

  Outside of the high-pressure topics that Iridescent pointed out at the time I'd been working on, I had little trouble. Even on some pages where potential for heated disagreement was high (e.g. Yellow vests movement, Algerian / Haitian / Sudanese protests) I luckily managed not to have too many problems at all. So, really as long as I stay away from AmPol and GMO, I think it's pretty likely there shouldn't be any problems... that said, I'll probably avoid much of anything likely to stir up great passion.

  This is a first look at your question. I also like smoothing translations, working on page layout, cleaning up references, and trying to find new ones when needed, e.g. one quick example --> Ken Burns does not even mention Theo Croker, much less source the entire first en.wp paragraph of his early life. These are the sorts of things I find on a regular basis. I could fix some of them (though not all of them) if unbanned.

  — SashiRolls (talk) 04:35, 26 December 2022 (UTC) Copied from c:Special:PermaLink/719815580 — JJMC89 (T·C) 05:06, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Support - It's no secret I think the ban was a mistake, but in any case, Sashi's productive contribs to other projects for years demonstrates the ban is no longer preventing anything except productive contribs. Levivich (talk) 06:02, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose - So first let me say that I have stayed out of all the Sashi blocks, unblock requests, reblocks, appeals, reappears, denials of appeals, provisional unblocking, unprovisional block reinstatements and what have you. Last I recall interacting with them was when they were, I think, in between their indef blocks, and it seems they sought me out to, um, “edit alongside me”. It was not a constructive experience. Other than that, since their last blockin’ I guess they were busy at other wikis but I don’t follow those so can’t comment. I have however been engaged by Sashi over at Wikipediocracy, one may even say, “relentlessly”. If I comment there, or if someone comments about me there or even if someone writes a word that starts with a “V” on something completely unrelated there, Sashi is sure to show up there and post their latest insights and gleaned revelations they’ve acquired about my person. Usually something somewhere between “pointlessly petty” to “aggressively nasty”, all with the usual side of esoteric bizzarness. To put it transparently and curtly - judging by their behavior THERE, there’s no way in hell they’ve “reformed” or are ready to come back to editing HERE. Volunteer Marek 06:28, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Support - I opposed the ban, partly because I think malice was being attributed where I'm sure there wasn't any. SashiRolls is, in my view, someone who has been afflicted with too much enthusiasm and too little patience in subject areas that pushed his buttons. If he can keep away from such topics, then I think the project could welcome back a positive contributor here. The edits to other projects while banned here convince me that can happen. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:04, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose from my oppose rationale from the last appeal: SashiRolls was unblocked in November 2018, with "considerable skepticism of unblocking" and subsequently racked up five blocks in less than two years (two of which were undone by the blocking admin), plus four other sanctions, until the ban was reimposed in June 2020. It's clear that unblock was a mistake which wasted plenty of time from constructive editors.. There's a high chance the ban would have to be reimposed if it was lifted. Giving yet another last chance to banned editors is not an effective use of editor time. Hut 8.5 11:47, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose (on hold see below) - per Hut 8.5. - GizzyCatBella🍁 14:29, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  @SashiRolls You wrote --> Best practice will be to keep away from those who might tend to rile me up. Who are those? - GizzyCatBella🍁 19:08, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  (@SashiRolls - please respond on your talk page) - GizzyCatBella🍁 19:09, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I would be steering well-wide of anything even remotely to do with the war in Ukraine, in addition to the other Arbitration Enforcement areas alluded to above (I forget the acronyms for them all, but in general I'm not interested...). I did not come here with a calumet to battle or to say mean things about people. I came because I see en.wp's coverage of the francophone world could use work. Best to you GCB, -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 19:31, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  @GizzyCatBella: Copied from Special:Diff/1129711020 –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 19:46, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  [2] - GizzyCatBella🍁 20:19, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Conditional Support - only under the condition of additional one-way IBAN with Volunteer_Marek (see --> [3]) and a Topic Ban from editing articles related to Russia and Eastern Europe (including Poland). (If all these conditions aren't met, then consider my voice as Oppose) - GizzyCatBella🍁 22:11, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per Lev and Boing. Their edits would be closely watched and I’m sure someone would report any potential issues quickly (though I don’t expect there would be any). Mr Ernie (talk) 18:22, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose, with a caveat. I had a couple of interactions with SashiRolls in the past, and they were not so negative. That was a fair ban in the past, and I do not see what has changed based on the comments and responses by SashiRolls. Perhaps she/he could be unbanned if one of the admins takes a responsibility of observing their future editing and re-blocking SashiRolls again at the first sign of trouble. However, after looking at the very long block record of SashiRolls, it seems such approach had already been tried, so that the chances of success are slim. Based on their comments, SashiRolls is planning to voluntarily stay away from a number of different widely defined subjects and a number of contributors (an equivalent to multiple topic bans and interaction bans). Will it work in practice? If SashiRolls is going to be unbanned, the lists of such topics and contributors should be explicitly defined. This all seem to be problematic. My very best wishes (talk) 18:29, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is something for admins to decide because they will be responsible for enforcement. According to Yngvadottir (see below) there are 4 active topic/interaction bans for SashiRolls. If admins think this will not ensure waste of time and drama in the future, then yes, let's unban. My very best wishes (talk) 17:41, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The in practice comments are really spot on here for unban considerations. Those are some wide topic ban areas, so if they cross the line there again or start it up in a new topic, how much sniping and denials are editors who try to bring the issues up going to have to deal with? How would that past problem be alleviated? I don't know of a good answer considering past history where it's likely for someone to just paint editors either being pursued by SR or trying to deal with problems as just out to get SR. That's really the can of worms I'm worried about. KoA (talk) 19:44, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yeh, the ability of SashiRolls to stir conflict, even between admins, is definitely a factor here. My very best wishes (talk) 18:26, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Support per Levivich and Boing!. François Robere (talk) 20:04, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • As an aside, I find it somewhat disingenuous for one to object to the appeal on the grounds of posts made to WPO, when elsewhere they claimed it as a "safe space", writing that "[the] whole point of WPO is that you can say things plainly and directly without genuflecting to the gods of hypocrisy the way you do on Wiki".[4] François Robere (talk) 14:22, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• That block log is pretty terrible; it's not that hard to not rack up a lot of blocks, or heck, to not rack up any blocks. It's fair to assume you probably didn't have the most enjoyable editing experience here? So a blunt and genuine question: why do you still want to participate here, verses just finding another hobby? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 22:21, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  A number of the early blocks are related to a bad actor Sashi and others like me tangled with, who turned out to be a exceptionally skilled former admin socking to avoid a topic ban. These blocks were frequently brought up in later cases and should be considered in the context. If you set the clean slate post the Cirt stuff I don’t think a site ban would ever have been considered. Mr Ernie (talk) 02:56, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  In fairness, the point about needing to look past Cirt is a very valid one. For easy access, here is a link to that block log: [5]. The unblock on November 5, 2018, is the unblock resulting from recognizing the Cirt problem. So everything after that, from June 4, 2019 onward, is really what we should consider relevant to the present discussion. And it's still pretty awful, even after making that correction. Again and again, personal attacks, battleground, harassment. Not trivial stuff, and not isolated instances. And violating existing restrictions ([6]). Consider what that means: where some editors argue here that we should unban while setting restrictions, past experience demonstrates a tendency to break those promises. I wasn't exaggerating when I talked (below) about a time-sink. There needs to be a lot stronger case than saying that one opposed the ban in the last discussion, or it's just too much enthusiasm, or at least there's been no socking, or this is a good time to try WP:ROPE because there will be lots of eyes on him. We are ridiculously beyond the point where the WP:ROPE ran out. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:06, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. As others have mentioned, their appeal is filled with WP:NOTTHEM language, which is a pretty strong indication they're going to continue the tendentious behavior that got them banned and continue the time sink they created for the community when they were here. We also definitely can't give weight comments calling a ban to correctly prevent community-wide disruption a "mistake" either. One needs only to look at their block log and especially the last straw ban proposal by TonyBallioni [7] and the close by MastCell there. That attitude is just a repeat of what I remember dealing with back when they were here.

Volunteer Marek also makes a good point on relentlessness. SR would often pursue editors on-wiki, and I among others ended up having to try to cleanup major disruptions in the GMO topics because of SR doing that. When folks mention SR's off-wiki activities after the ban especially I'll echo Volunteer Marek that SR was often pursuing editors off-wiki that they had hounded on-wiki. This appeal falls pretty flat after seeing that. The trouble with the relentlessness that I'm seeing revived here again is targets of SR were often hounded and victim-blamed/gaslighted by SR or others. That often complicated cleaning up the disruption or just simply getting action on sanctions because you'd often have people rushing to say it was SR's target that was causing the problems.

Mix that with NOTTHEM comments, they were just getting "riled" up, etc. like I'm seeing in this appeal and we have a recipe for being right back to the situation we were in before the ban. For the amount of disruption they were the center of, the bar for an unban is much higher a general lack of acknowledgement appeal like this. Too much of a time-sink for the community with this apparent attitude continuing. KoA (talk) 22:36, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Support per Levivich, Boing! and Mr. Ernie. I haven't followed the off-Wiki drama so I won't evaluate that. Opposers fail to convince. I do feel that SR has followed the procedure that leads to reconsideration of an unban. SR obviously knows they are going to be watched, and if SR keeps it clean, the 'pedia wins, and if not, gets rebanned. Simple. Jusdafax (talk) 23:04, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

For background, a frequent problem at admin boards often were editors such as Jusdafax, Mr. Ernie, and Levivich jumping in to defend SR regardless of the disruption SR caused. The AE where we had to modify SR's GMO ban is a good example of that.[8] Generally you'll see various forms of denial there claiming no disruption by SR despite admins still determining the sanction was needed (and tweaked to clearer language). Similar things happened at SR's site ban thread too despite plenty of evidence.[9] There's also usually bits where those of us who were hounded due to SR's actions were portrayed as just out to get Sashirolls peppered in some of those discussions too.

Denials of SR's behavior have been a recurring issue from vocal minorities, so for those who are entirely uninvolved, I do advise reading the closes, evidence, blocks, etc. where simple denials don't really match up with reality. Those of us who were directly affected by SR's antics had to deal with a lot from SR themselves, but also their supporters muddying the waters or outright lashing out when we tried to get help. While I personally shouldn't have to deal with Sashirolls much due to their topic bans if they came back, I sure wouldn't wish others having to go through what myself or others did. Just punting the buck along to a new topic each time is in part why the community decided on the site ban instead, and crafting an appeal for that needs something pretty substantive rather than merely following unbanning procedure. KoA (talk) 00:31, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I am continually surprised that people can hold grudges like this over such petty reasons for so long. I wondered why you came after me at an unrelated AE case a few weeks ago when I didn’t even recognize your name or know we had interacted, but now I understand. The topic bans should handle the areas where there were concerns as you acknowledge so why not let’s give that a try on this volunteer project? Mr Ernie (talk) 03:05, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is exactly the kind of gaslighting multiple editors had to deal with, and you've been repeatedly cautioned about hounding editors like at that AE you mention. Yes, I noticed your behavior issues during the Sashirolls stuff and at that AE, but trying to claim anyone who notices behavior issues from you or others as just having a "grudge" is a tired old WP:BATTLEGROUND tactic. That just disrupts admin boards.

With that, the sniping at those who tried to deal with Sashirolls and related behavior issues clearly hasn't gone away. That is why it's being brought up because it contributed to the issues resulting in SR's ban and is yet another hurdle to navigate in a potential unban. The whole point above was that topic bans didn't help the behavior since it just moved to whatever topic SR moved on to, and whoever got stuck dealing with it had harassment and wikilawyering to deal with. The serious question to answer is why should we burden other parts of the community (yet again) with that likely scenario even in a WP:ROPE situation? There needs to be really good justification rather than talking past it that we've seen from SR's appeal so far. There's a lot of red flag language in that regard. KoA (talk) 18:47, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Accusing editors of gaslighting and lying about sanctions they’ve never received is poor form at the admin boards. But par for the course I suppose. I don’t expect anyone to defend me, but maybe this type of behavior will color uninvolved reviewers perspectives on this issue. Mr Ernie (talk) 20:28, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I trust that uninvolved reviewers will follow the evidence (diffs and links) in order to gain a perspective, per Dorothy Gambrell, perhaps 🐈. ---Sluzzelin talk 20:44, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. We even needed to craft a new WP:ASPERSIONS principle in the GMO case because of unsubstantiated claims, though that was before SR's involvement. Either way to be clear, the AE section Mr Ernie was referring to earlier[10] is where their previous sanction related to hounding was recently discussed, specifically that they had been banned from WP:AE for a time for hounding/aspersions and that it was a concern again. They were already aware of their past sanction though (and they even referenced that AE I just linked despite the flourish above), so it's really odd that they go on a tangent about an easily verifiable thing being a lie here when it wasn't even in my initial comment. That's a confusing tangent.

My focus was on the links I gave in my main reply above on interactions related to Sashirolls at admin boards with editors repeatedly dismissing SR's issues or things like we're seeing here now accusing others of grudges. There is a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality that seems to follow SR, in part because of their own actions, but also what we see playing out here from other editors. It just makes an unban appeal even trickier to navigate and why some of us who had to deal with SR are so cautious. KoA (talk) 22:13, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It had nothing to do with hounding. Please stop lying. You are the only one who has mentioned hounding, and now you just fait accompli refer to it as that. When you are wrong about something, referring back to it doesn’t make it any more right. Mr Ernie (talk) 23:24, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I want to respond to that point about supposedly holding petty grudges. For me, this is no more about holding a grudge, than it is about being an enabler when editors who have long memories about past disputes over GMOs or AmPol come here to support the request on behalf of someone they perceive as having been on their "team". And an awfully high percentage of the editors who have commented here fit that description. So we can go back and forth calling one another grudge-holders or enablers, or we can look at what would be in the best interests of this project. And there's nothing petty about wanting to spare the project the highly predictable time-sink that would result from bringing back someone who has long been a time-sink, and has never, even at their best, been a particularly helpful contributor. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:54, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Support I was against the ban when it was first imposed and I'm still against it now. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 03:56, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. I have read the statements above by editors who don't trust SashiRolls because they have been hurt in the past. I cannot judge anything SashiRolls has written in the non-public areas of Wikipediocracy, because I'm not a member there, so I hope I'm not slighting the concerns of Volunteer Marek, in particular. So I spent some time reading and re-reading the June 2020 siteban discussion (also linked by SashiRolls at the top of this discussion). And I searched ineptly for restrictions to which they're still subject. It is my understanding that these are: (a) an interaction ban with Tryptofish (whether one-way or two-way has been a subject of some disagreement and/or change); (b) a GMO topic ban; (c) a post-1932 American politics topic ban; (d) a prohibition on commenting on AE requests to which they are not a party, imposed in 2016. Are there any others? It seems to me that the core question is whether these restrictions are sufficient. SashiRolls has pledged to keep away from those who might rile me up and strive to deescalate. I don't think they should be judged harshly for not listing the names, especially since they have an IBan with at least one, and the emphasis in the appeal is on how they intend to stay out of trouble, so I don't find the mention of their own thought processes—getting riled up—to be inappropriate. I also note that their statement I know I can't edit GMOs, Am-Pol or WP:AE corresponds to their edit restrictions; so I see no truculent "I wish I could ... " in it. If there are indeed no other edit restrictions or IBans in place, given that SashiRolls has named several areas where they plan to make edits, has been editing productively on several other projects, and has responded plainly and levelly to questions so far in this appeal, I'm inclined to support. I will add that on my reading, that 2020 ban discussion was very divided; MastCell's key point in closing it was: While there is no numerical threshold for consensus, it would be inappropriate to close a discussion like this—with >2/3 of commenters supporting action—as "no consensus". There has since been a withdrawn appeal, followed by 2 years. Consensus can change in that time. Wikipedia can change in that time, and I have a tiny, inexpert suspicion that after 2½ years, we might today be less inclined to siteban an editor after a discussion that shook out the way that one did (including El_C's attempted intervention). Anyway, we're here now. If the ban is rescinded, it will of course be a WP:ROPE situation, with many eyes on SashiRolls' editing. Perhaps, in addition to the topic bans, the concerns of some of those in opposition could be allayed by addition of some more IBans? Volunteer_Marek, for example? And I would suggest the IBan with Tryptofish should be made 2-way, if it isn't, in order to simplify matters. Yngvadottir (talk) 10:55, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A topic ban from Eastern European topics, including Russia, would also be a minimum since I’m not the only one they’ve “followed around” in that topic area. Volunteer Marek 18:39, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

And I would suggest the IBan with Tryptofish should be made 2-way, if it isn't, in order to simplify matters. One thing we absolutely should not be doing is re-harassing one of SR's old targets from past disputes by doing that, especially since the original 2-way I-ban on appeal was considered a throwing the baby out with the bathwater situation and very uncontroversially changed to 1-way.[11] KoA (talk) 19:44, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

KoA just beat me to saying what I was going to say, thanks. Yngvadottir, if you're going to say stuff like that about me, please get your facts straight first. There's nothing close to a subject of some disagreement and/or change about it. I suggest that anyone who wants to know what actually happened go to the link that KoA just gave, and open the collapsed AE section to see more than just the closing statement in the header. You will see that the original 2-way version was explicitly designated as having been "no-fault" with respect to me, and you can read for yourselves the admin discussion by Newyorkbrad, Thryduulf, and TonyBallioni. It's worth seeing what three highly trusted admins determined about the merits of the situation. And it's worth noting how they were quite able to see through and dismiss the same kinds of WP:2WRONGS diversions that are being offered again here in this discussion. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:07, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough, Tryptofish; in researching the situation, I missed that discussion. Some of your talk above of editors ... jumping in to defend SR and of vocal minorities strikes me as unpleasant, but you're entirely right, I am not aware of the extent of the disruption SashiRolls has caused in the past, or of the suffering you and others are referring to. Volunteer Marek, I think a lot of editors are also at a similar disadvantage to me in judging whether SashiRolls might be disruptive in the area of Eastern Europe / Russia, since you appear to be basing that judgement on non-public forum posts? I haven't seen anyone mention that as a problematic area in the previous discussions? But then again, there's a new war this year. However, it appears to me that between their pledge to stay away from editors who "rile them up", and the innocuous topics they say they forsee editing here (it seems that apart from my error about the basis of the IBan, I've got it right that those are the 4 in force?), new restrictions shouldn't be necessary. I find myself persuaded they will be a net positive if unbanned. But I admit that's partly because I find the argument that they never were to be exaggerated; respected editors at the banning discussion, when the dispute was hot, made that point. More importantly, it's now two and a half years later; people can change; their appeal is calmly couched and lists good contributions on multiple other projects; they appear to have sensible plans for proceeding (including not being fixated on this particular project). Yngvadottir (talk) 04:13, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for that. However, the "unpleasant" comments that you now attribute to me are not things that I ever said. It was another editor, not me. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:46, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Also, one thing that I did say is relevant to the argument about not needing new restrictions. I linked above to blocks for violating existing individual restrictions ([12], also [13]), and I think that history gives pause to being confident about accepting promises on face value. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:06, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Just for the record...I strongly oppose a 2-way iBan naming Tryptofish, and believe the one-way should remain as a show of good faith on SR's part that they truly have started a new chapter in the book of WP. Atsme 💬 📧 21:01, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Support - If there's been no socking, during the ban. GoodDay (talk) 17:44, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Neutral, with a proviso - As one of their victims, I won't !vote. But, if they are unblocked, they should be TBanned from all DS articles and all admin boards. A promise has little meaning. O3000, Ret. (talk) 22:14, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose unban. Even though I'm not familiar with the history of the case, I am confident that a person with this kind of block log is not going to return as a collegial and productive editor. Sandstein 17:11, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  🤦🏼‍♂️ Levivich (talk) 17:44, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Support - last chance saloon, and beware of controversial areas. starship.paint (exalt) 13:16, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose guys, this isn't a second chance request. SashiRolls has had multiple chances throughout their involvement on the English Wikipedia, and every time it comes back to one thing: they view every disagreement as a battleground, make up enemies in their head, and relentlessly focus on showing how their enemies are out to get them. Then when people get tired of having to deal with that and point out the problems, they claim it is evidence that what they have been saying is correct, without pausing to consider if whether the objections to their behaviour might have some grounding in facts.
  If we unblock them, there will be another dispute. That dispute will follow just like all the others had. And we won't be able to do anything about it because we just unbanned them and an unban is a get out of jail free card where no admin is willing to take any action against you for 3-6 months. I'm around a lot less these days, so this isn't anything personal against SashiRolls or something that I think will have that huge an impact on me. But I do absolutely think an unban would be a firm net negative to the project and would increase the amount of disruption that admins who work in controversial areas have to deal with. TonyBallioni (talk) 22:24, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose My thought in supporting or opposing lifting the ban is simple: Do I feel like we will be right back here again in a relative short period of time. In this case, I do. SR has shown that they are going to go bull in a china shop to get their way. The ban WAS the last chance, and if we are back to this again, are we going to be arguing this all over? RickinBaltimore (talk) 22:29, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per Levivich's current (see above) and previous comments: "the incivility from Sashi is narrowly focused at very few people, who frankly aren't blameless themselves. I would support two way IBANs all around, but not a site ban". This would have made much more sense then...it makes even more sense now. The site ban should be lifted, but all other restrictions should remain.

Also of note: the comments about "a person with this kind of block log" seem unnecessary. If you read, most of the recent ones are blocks and unblocks to allow for appeals/ArbCom proceedings. If you feel that something in particular is a problem, please specify. I'd much rather place trust in someone with 30 traffic tickets in 40 years of driving than a one-time murderer (even though the former's "rap sheet" is longer). Buffs (talk) 22:41, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Frankly, it's getting pretty old to keep hearing that those of us who have been harassed by SR are the ones at fault. And there are a ton of blocks (post-Cirt) that were not mere adjustments for appeals, but were for personal attacks, battleground conduct, harassment, and violation of existing individual restrictions. I'd say that that's something in particular that's a problem. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:49, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Then please point it out vice a vague claim. Buffs (talk) 16:22, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've already provided that here: [14], [15]. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:56, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I never said you were to blame for SR's block. I stated that you weren't blameless regarding your own actions. Each one stands on its own. We will agree to disagree here. Best of luck in the future. Buffs (talk) 22:50, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What?? If you think that I'm "not blameless for my own actions", then start a separate section about it, and provide diffs. But you are just moving the goalposts and playing WP:IDHT. You asked me to back up what I said about problems in SR's block log: what you called "a vague claim". I gave you two diffs of what I had already said in this thread, and those previous comments of mine provided the information you seemed to be asking about: problems with his block log. All of that is plainly visible just above. But now, you jump back to where I said that I was tired of being told that those of us who were harassed by SR are the ones at fault. And you're wikilawyering that you didn't say that we were at fault, just that we were "not blameless". And that's what's been going wrong over all the repeated time sinks created by SR's repeated appeals and the shameful conduct of his enablers. SR harasses good-faith editors. And gets blocked for it, and it's in the block log, post-Cirt. And his enablers respond by saying that the people he harassed are themselves bad actors. Victim-blaming. Rinse and repeat. Again and again. And heaven forbid that anyone point out that it's victim-blaming. Because that's met with the crying of schoolyard bullies who got punched back by the bullied. Shame on Wikipedia if this appeal is granted. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:33, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• (edit conflict) For those claiming there is no victim-blaming going on in this thread in past ones, this is a "great" example of such a personal attack by Buffs directed at Tryptofish where they cast what is called vague WP:ASPERSIONS about Trpytofish "not being blameless". In reality, we had an AE awhile back related to the interaction of SR and Trpytofish where admins were in agreement with statements such as no administrator has found serious or repeated fault with Tryptofish's behavior among others.[16] If anything, those claiming Trpytofish was at fault were politely chastised for not having any real evidence at that AE. That's how aspersions like Buffs is making now become commonly so disruptive in Sashiroll topics. KoA (talk) 23:37, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  @Tryptofish: Then let me be succinct and clear: your actions are not 100% in line with WP:CIVIL, et al throughout the timeframe in question. You (and others) have unnecessarily raised the temperature. If you want to take that as victim-blaming/victim-shaming/personal attack/etc, that's on you. The point is that you can do better, not that you "caused" SR to behave in the manner he did or are the "ones at fault". I am not asking for sanctions on you or anyone else opposed to SR's return, but don't confuse that with saying your actions are "above reproach". If you are "punching back" then you too are "fighting" when you can choose to walk away. To be fair, I too have made snide or unnecessary remarks that have raised the temperature as well here on WP, but that doesn't mean that it excuses the stalking that's happened to me (I've literally been doxxed and accused of murdering another user).

  That, however, is completely separate from my assessment of SR. The only reason I bring it up is because that temperature has been raised on both sides and the actions need to be seen within that context. That doesn't mean "you deserved it", merely that I see it within a larger context of events, not in complete isolation. If you cannot separate these two assessments, I can't help you. Likewise, you've responded 21 times in this thread alone...time to let it go and let the admins determine what needs to be done. Buffs (talk) 18:37, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I've never claimed to be perfect. If in fact, we agree that SR's conduct should be evaluated on its own, and cannot be explained as having been caused by the actions of other editors, then that's something we can agree on. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:01, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Support. I am new here, but it looks like there are a lot of strict rules that are easy to break by accident. Wikipedia administrators should be able to give people a second chance when they mess up and they should un-ban SashiRolls. If SashiRolls returns and keeps making the same mistake over and over, then administrators should ban the user again until the problem is fixed. Lobster from Maine (talk) 02:31, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  (note - the above is a one day old account) - GizzyCatBella🍁 21:43, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Support per Levivich mostly. Frankly, I don't see anything preventative about this ban that wouldn't be as easily and comprehensively covered by extant restrictions. And the idea that somehow SR could get away with even breathing in the wrong direction without this ban / a block being (re)imposed quicker than you can imagine. They have clearly been editing productively elsewhere; I suggest that we demonstrate some trust, after some years, and that perhaps if we don't poke the bear, the bear might bring some of that productivity back here. We gain a useful editor, SR behaves themselves, and a happy vista is viewed by all, hein? SN54129 18:03, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• I'm agnostic about unbanning SashiRolls—they're clearly passionate about the project and have contributed substantially, but also seem a poor fit for the social aspects and expectations of this website. Maybe that's changed, although my experience is in line with TonyBallioni's in that I think we're more likely than not to end up back here, with regrets, if we unban them. That said, I could support an unban as long as it's clear that this isn't a second chance, but more like an nth chance, and that there won't be an (n+1)th chance.
  Setting aside SashiRolls, I do have to say that I'm really disappointed by the behavior of some of his supporters—a dynamic that goes back to his original ban. The victim-blaming is just a really shitty thing to do, but there's plenty of it in this thread. We should welcome or even solicit victim-impact statements when we consider unbanning people who were banned for cause, and we should consider the impact of an unban on people who previously bore the brunt of the banned editor's behavior. We should center the time and goodwill of those victims at least as much as we center the banned editor's perceived right to another bite at the apple. Instead, we usually pontificate about forgiveness, patronize the victims for their "pettiness", and pat each other on the back for our greatness of spirit—easy enough to do when the cost will be paid by someone else. MastCell ^Talk 19:14, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  That second paragraph: amen! Thank you for that. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:21, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Music to your ears, Trypto, I'm sure. Anyway, while this appeal doesn't seem likely to pass, at least MastCell, whose stated "agnosticism" here seems highly questionable, doesn't get to WP:SUPERVOTE this one, as such a SUPERVOTE wouldn't be needed. This, folks, is the absurdity. I, the actual victim in the original ban am accused of "victim blaming" (but I'd likely be lauded by Floq, Trypto and MastCell if I were to forever not forgive Sashi). It was I who was disparaged unrelentingly at the WPO during the original ban (though not so much by Sashi). It was I whom WPO admin trantino attempted to doxx back then.

And these carefully-crafted words from MastCell are hurtful, but in my experience from other disputes, that is MastCell's intent—though he cleverly doesn't mention me by name—to cause hurt to the opposition. I've been on the receiving end of it several times in the past few years. Otherwise, I never really see him around. Trypto's grievances of many years, however, are far from "petty." If they were, they'd be easy to overcome.

As for Floq's fire-and-forget animosity, I'm not gonna bother addressing that beyond my now-hatted comments. Obviously, my humor there had the opposite of its desired diffusive effect, as admittedly, I might have miscalculated/forgotten how deep these grievances go, to the point of being seemingly insurmountable. Should we expect anything different in an appeal years from now? And years from then, as well? Et cetera, etc.? Unfortunately, the answer appears to be a resounding no. El_C 18:07, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In other words, everyone is being so, so unfair to you, which demonstrates that this appeal has merits. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:07, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, yes, poor me, sad merits. But no, Trypto, far from "everyone." But I do expect much disparagements against myself from certain people to pile on high, irrespectively of anything I could possibly say now. It's gonna suck, but it's almost certainly unavoidable. It is what it is. El_C 20:23, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

MastCell, while I somewhat appreciate the point you were trying to make in your second paragraph, I do not think it was wise or fair to use an emotionally-charged term such as "victim-blaming" to describe what is happening here. In this thread, several editors have argued against the unban by making unsupported negative comments about Sashi. I haven't seen anyone bat an eyelash over that. If that sort of thing is going to be allowed to stand, then I'm afraid we can't have it both ways. Besides, if the full context of Sashi's ban involves problematic behavior by his antagonists, then I think it is highly relevant to bring that up here. So, while your disappointment is noted, I suspect it is misguided. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 17:54, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No, you are wrong about that, and your comment should not be allowed to stand unchallenged. If there is a concern about bad conduct by anyone else, then raise it in a separate thread specfically about that, instead of throwing around a vague aspersion in the hope that two wrongs make a right. And if there is a concern about unsupported negative comments about SR, refute them. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:26, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Challenge me all you like, but you greatly overestimate my interest in wasting my time on this matter, especially since the community is clearly unwilling to allow Sashi back at this time. At any rate, I haven't really seen any "victim-blaming" in this thread, and I remain of the belief that the background context of Sashi's ban is relevant to this discussion. Opening a separate thread would generate more heat than light, as you undoubtedly realize. And no, the onus is not on me to refute other people's unsubstantiated assertions about Sashi. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 04:21, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's not a challenge to you, personally. But if people are going to complain that what MastCell said was unfair, then it behooves them to back up their claims, rather than just fold when someone asks them to show their cards. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:51, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Meh. I don't see MastCell backing up his claims either, and you don't have any problem with that. Heck, last I checked you were quoting him in an essay. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 22:28, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for looking into my edit history. That essay is WP:DEFLECT, which is about, well, deflecting from the issue at hand. MastCell wrote about comments in this thread, so it is self-evident what he was referring to. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:39, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well, as I said earlier, I have not seen any "victim-blaming" in this thread. So regardless of whether a person could infer which comments he was referring to, I wouldn't say that he backed up his claims. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 01:09, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You haven't seen any victim-blaming? I can, in fact, infer that you can infer which comments he was referring to. Obviously, you are looking at the same comments that MastCell and I are looking it, but seeing them differently. That doesn't mean that he didn't provide evidence, just that you disagree with the evidence. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:02, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Beg pardon? I never said anything about not being able to tell which comments he was referring to. I expressed disagreement with his characterization of said comments. Those objections were raised two days ago, and he has yet to respond. IMO, that means he hasn't backed up his claims. I feel as though you and I are talking past one another. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 00:00, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• I'm ambivalent. On the one hand, indefinite doesn't mean permanent and SashiRolls has been doing verifiably good work on other projects. On the other hand, he was given a "last chance" in his 2018 unblock and after two years of issues wound up with this ban. On balance, I don't see myself supporting, but if the community wants to give a "last last chance" given his work on Commons, I wouldn't be strongly opposed, though I agree with MastCell and TonyBallioni that prior history isn't promising. — Wug·a·po·des​ 21:11, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• While I have no opinion about Sashi's request at this time, having read this thread I do have an observation and a thought. My observation is that we don't have good ways of assigning responsibility in a conflict. We essentially end up assigning it as 50/50 or 100/0. If it's really say 60/40 a 50/50 outcome isn't too bad. But sometimes it seems like when it's lopsided - say 90/10 or 95/5 - we're just as likely to default to 50/50 as 100/0, if not formally at least in comments. I don't know what there is to do about that but our lack of nuance in these discussions is something I see reading through comments here and see as the cause of some of the rancor that has happened. My thought is for people with Sashi's general profile, if rather than a straight unblock if something more akin to the unblock ArbCom did with Lightbreather might leave people feeling better. This would also address the general point Tony made above. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 20:41, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Note. SashiRolls has made two further replies that they've asked to be copied over here. User talk:SashiRolls#Reply #3 and User talk:SashiRolls#Reply #4. They've both received responses there, but I'm drawing attention to them here as was intended. I don't feel comfortable copying them over myself. Yngvadottir (talk) 03:24, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per my comments in the original ban discussion. I don't agree with the "unblocking will restart long term problems" arguments above. Sashirolls's reserve of AGF will be minimal to start with unless and until he earns more by not starting arguments even when he feels he's being baited, and he presumably knows Wikipedia well enough to know that the next block will be permanent and essentially unappealable. This means a de facto condition of any unblock—whether or not it's written formally—is "you are topic banned from anything remotely controversial". Either we're here again on one single future occasion to formally approve the permanent ban, or we gain an editor who's obviously knowledgeable and trying to help. ‑ Iridescent 05:53, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  For the tape, this comment was technically canvassed as it's in response to a mention of me on Sashirolls's Commons talk page. Other than my participation in the original ban discussion, to the best of my recollection I have had no previous interaction with this editor anywhere. ‑ Iridescent 05:53, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  (adding) It seems fair to address Tryptofish's instead it is something where it is entirely the responsibility of the user to demonstrate, without coaching, that they truly understand their own responsibility for the ban and that they have a clear idea of how to become a net positive directly. English Wikipedia isn't like any other site (even other sites in the WMF ecosystem), and someone who's unable to participate here can't demonstrate changed behavior. It does seem to me that, by participation at related sites like Commons, SashiRolls is making a conscious effort to demonstrate they can get along with others in a wiki environment. Regarding WPO, the site isn't searchable so I can't comment on their conduct there, but I wouldn't really consider it relevant to an on-wiki ban appeal unless they were saying things spectacularly and irredeemably offensive. Since we're not even allowed to take other users' conduct on the official Discord and IRC channels into consideration, I certainly don't see why we should take into account someone's activity on a website with no connection to us at all. ‑ Iridescent 06:12, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm past being tired of this discussion, and I'm only replying because you addressed me directly. I don't buy your reasoning, because SR can participate here, by posting the appeal request and by posting replies to comments here, via their talk page. I've never argued that they also would need to demonstrate good editing in mainspace here while blocked, as that would be a ridiculous expectation. And if you are referring to what I said about WPO, I said it only in response to what SR had said about it in the opening appeal. I appreciate, of course, trying to address what I said, but let's please deal with what I actually said. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:43, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Sorry if I wasn't clear, by someone who's unable to participate here can't demonstrate changed behavior I wasn't referring to this discussion or his own talkpage; I meant that SashiRolls can't participate on Wikipedia in general, to demonstrate that they can get along with people without arguing. Anyone can make promises, but whether or not someone has actually changed their behavior is something that can only be tested in a live environment. (Somewhere like Commons doesn't really translate, as their different culture means that unless one consciously goes looking for trouble it's actually fairly difficult to have an argument there. I have upwards of 50,000 edits there, and I don't believe I've even been involved in so much as a minor disagreement.) ‑ Iridescent 20:08, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Thanks for that. You also raise a good point about Commons (that I suspect is also applicable to WikiData). Consequently, a lot of this discussion boils down to how to balance the edit history at the French Wikipedia with the history here. (And I've already made clear how I would balance that.) --Tryptofish (talk) 21:03, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  You know, this comment chain reminded me that we have seen SR's behavior a bit here already through their talk page. In the process of this appeal, they've already been trying to get Volunteer Marek sanctioned with an interaction ban in User_talk:SashiRolls#Reply_#3 when there was mention of a one-way ban being needed to protect VM. User:GizzyCatBella correctly called that out.[17]. That comes across as still pursuing VM despite claiming they'd leave VM alone without the ban, and has a bit of that "winkyfaced insinuation" that Rhododendrites mentions below. If anything, it's more of the wikilawyering and "civil" POV-pushing attitude that the community had enough of. That kind of stuff can be hallmark under the radar WP:TENDENTIOUS behavior not noticed by those unfamiliar with SR's past issues unfortuantely. KoA (talk) 22:45, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Hesitant support per Boing, Levivich and Iridescent. SR is going to be on a very short leash, and their words suggest they know it. I note that there's a few folks I respect opposing this, but I'm quite unimpressed with the comments others have made here about people whose conduct isn't under discussion. Vanamonde (Talk) 06:14, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• After the initial ban, SR went over to WO to blow off steam. In that [apparently now-deleted] message, he highlighted a few people's opinions in particular, including making an off-hand comment about my job. It wasn't outing, to be clear, wasn't an attack, and didn't seem intended to be harmful, but it did illustrate one of the reasons I supported the ban in the first place. In the original block proposal, I wrote that that "they seem to have a particular kind of consistent battleground style characterized not by outright name calling or direct accusations of bad faith, but by pervasive winkyfaced insinuation, subtle personalization, and conspiratorial musing. It makes it harder to point to one or two diffs to hold up as especially egregious, but I find the effect much more damaging (and even chilling) than a more typical battleground approach".
  Now it's been a couple years, and in the absence of anything truly problematic to point to (I haven't seen anyone provide any evidence at all of problems with his contributions elsewhere) I'm not going to oppose this. While I'm also not quite supporting, I do think SR is a clever, well-read sort and has the potential to be able to improve a variety of topics constructively. The question is what will happen when he gets into disagreements. Even with a lot of scrutiny, we have a hard time dealing with battleground behavior when it doesn't involve crossing bright lines, so I suspect if this is successful, we'll see a lot more community time being spent here in the future. I hope I'm wrong. Maybe some sort of restriction on speculating about motives or something would help, but that'd probably just be a nightmare for everyone. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 14:18, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This illustrates very well why their behavior was hard to deal with at ANI, etc. in the past and still would be. In the event they did return, it wouldn't be quite so simple as many supports make it seem to be in terms of SR being watched closely.

So whenever this does get closed, I think the closer looking at what you said and seeing how whatever proposed remedy in an unban (if any) would alleviate the situation you describe would go a long way. I'm obviously opposed, but in the event of consensus for an unban, that would need to establish consensus for a pathway the community is at least somewhat comfortable with for return. I'd say there really isn't consensus if a good number of supports are looking at all these other additional restrictions (though very reasonable avenues being explored to try making it work) to add to the long existing list, but the burden is really on the supports to show an avenue that deals with the numerous legitimate issues we had with SR that resulted in a site ban rather than additional restrictions. KoA (talk) 23:09, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I forgot about it Rhododendrites, but SR actually was subject to a personal comments restriction like you mention from 2019-2020.[18] Nightmare or not, it was deemed necessary back then. Yngvadottir, that's another one to add to your list of old sanctions or potential returning sanctions too as I don't think anyone has mentioned that one yet. KoA (talk) 00:02, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We've done this before on other users, and I've seen how those play out. I can safely say that a restriction on "speculating about motives" will lead to two things: 1. People rushing to report SR for every small violation or non-violation, and 2. People rushing to defend SR for every violation, period, because they feel the restriction by design is too draconic. I think any discussion of an unblock ought not include a condition that ArbCom had previously deemed unenforceable by nature. 🌈WaltCip-(talk) 13:18, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not aware of ArbCom saying they are unenforceable, and in my experience, they've been very effective in protecting the community for editors that just can't knock off battleground behavior. If anything, it's just a WP:FOC policy enforcement sanction. Some editors need a bright line that forces them to only work on content and actively keep their nose clean. Draconian maybe for someone who just got short with someone one time, but not so much in extreme battleground cases that resulted in a site ban. I think I can speak for most of the more outspoken opposes here that most would rather be glad just to not even worry about SR if such as sanction was in place rather than rushing to report SR. Most are instead more concerned about burdening other parts of the community with repeats of SR's past behavior, and I haven't really seen anyone here at least out to get SR. KoA (talk) 17:10, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose - I went back and reviewed the notice that ultimately ended in the indefinite ban.[19] I have very little faith than anything is going solve the problematic behavior. If an editor receives a "last chance" and squanders it then that that should be the end of it. I'm sure there are blocked editors worthy of reconsideration, but this isn't one of them. Nemov (talk) 20:08, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• I said earlier today that I was tired of commenting in this thread, but seeing yet another unfounded attack on me as a cheap tactic to WP:DEFLECT from the real issues at hand, I'm going to say something more. The conduct of several editors here, defending SR, seems to me to violate the WMF's Code of Conduct, as indeed SR's own conduct has done in the past. I hope that this appeal is declined. But if it isn't, if the en-wiki community just falls back on let's-give-yet-another-second-chance, it might just be a subject ripe for Trust and Safety. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:45, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Tryptofish, regardless of how hurt you feel, that's a remark intended to chill discussion. Please don't dismiss your fellow editors' right to their own opinions and to seek to explore options. It causes me to respect your position less. Yngvadottir (talk) 03:26, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It also chills discussion when other editors needlessly cause hurt. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:01, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate that you probably don't want to hear this from me given that we are on opposite sides of this discussion, but please remember that you have repeatedly stated elsewhere in this thread that two wrongs don't make a right. Now you seem to be justifying your chilling remarks on the basis of perceived wrongdoing by others. You cannot have it both ways. And let me further add that as someone who may or may not be one of the intended targets of your threat, I will find it very difficult to take your criticisms of Sashi seriously if you are willing to stoop this low. The code of conduct was not implemented to be used as a cudgel for intimidating people on the noticeboards. Please choose your words more carefully, and please consider the possibility that your attempt to dictate to the community in this fashion may backfire. People don't like being threatened. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 22:50, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You are directing that at me, so I'm replying. People who are comfortable with their own actions should not feel chilled or intimidated. There's no reason for the community to feel dictated to. I'm not trying to have anything both ways. I've been saying all along that SR's request should be evaluated on the basis of SR's own conduct. It's other editors, not me, who keep arguing that the real problem is the way SR was treated by me or other editors, and who keep trying to make this discussion focus on me or other editors who oppose the appeal. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:02, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

People who are comfortable with their own actions should not feel chilled or intimidated. Are you suggesting that people never get threatened unless they've done something to deserve it? I certainly hope you know better than that. And yes, by threatening to run to T&S if you don't get your way, you are absolutely dictating to the community. Don't bother to pretend otherwise. You say that you don't want this discussion to focus on you. Well, you should have realized that an ill-considered threat would draw more attention to you. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 23:15, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've struck the statement, because it has become too much of a distraction. It's true that people who do not deserve it can be the targets of threats. It's also true that people who did not deserve it became the targets of SR's bad conduct, which is what should be the focus here. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:21, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've already stated my opinion on whether we should consider the broader context behind Sashi's ban. I am aware that you disagree, and it is not necessary for you to incessantly remind me. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 03:25, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose the unblock in 2018 was SR's last chance. They didn't participate effectively in the community at that point which is seen very clearly from the 4 discretionary sanctions and 4 blocks SR received in the year and a half they were in blocked in 2018-2020. The decision here is will SR be able to return to the community without causing further problems that will require admin intervention. Based on the history and that it's only a couple of years later, the answer to that is no. While this an example of my reasoning rather than the reason for it, as others have pointed out SR's comment in their unban request that How about we get out the calumet and agree to peacefully co-exist strongly suggests that this is not the case at this point and that SR seems to arguing that it wasn't their actions that caused the ban but the community, I dunno, looking for a fight. Turn of phrase or not this is something that SR put in their unban request, the thing that should convince the community that they understand the reason for the ban and that it is no longer necessary. See also TonyBallioni and RickinBaltimore's comments. Having said all of that I don't necessary think that SR fits into the 'never block' category but I think we're a few years off being in a position to welcome them back and that the unban request at that time needs to clearly demonstrate an understanding of the issues that lead to the ban and use that understanding to effectivley explain a commitment to not repeat the same behaviour or other behaviour that doesn't fit with our normal editorial processes and expectations. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 23:55, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, Callanecc. I respect your different perspective, including seeing more than 2 years as only a couple of years, while it seems to me like an appreciable length of time, just as I've also noted KingofAces' very different interpretation from mine of SashiRolls' response to the suggestion of a one-way IBan with respect to Volunteer Marek. But I just can't see the reference to what used to be called a "peacepipe" in popular fiction, and the suggestion of agreeing to peaceful coexistence—which is pretty much WP:CIVIL summed up—as evidence of looking for a fight. I've turned it over and over in my mind and I still just don't see ill will, and SashiRolls' statements in this appeal have been all about how they intend to avoid conflict if reinstated. Yngvadottir (talk) 03:26, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Because it implies that the community needs to do something different in order for Sashi to be able to be part of it, that is agreeing to peacefully co-exist rather than existing within the community. A siteban is a clear statement that the person being banned is not acting in a way that is compatible with the collaborative editing environment on this project. It's up to that person to demonstrate that that is now not the case and hence that the ban is no longer necessary. It shouldn't be a matter of asking or implying that the community needs to co-exist with them, you can be a part of the community or you can choose not to but the community's responsibility isn't to co-exist with someone who isn't upholding its expectations of conduct. This may not be Sashi's intention behind that statement and as I said that statement isn't the reason I'm opposing lifting the ban at this point. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 07:28, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've never heard of that interpretation of "co-exist" before. Levivich (talk) 13:02, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment/request for uninvolved admin review of this entire request thread. - Wow! In my 15 years of editing here I can't say I have seen a more dedicated effort at outright hostility than that displayed by two editors here, one of whom called me out without pinging me, the other who has now actually threatened to take to Trust and Safety those !voting, like myself, for an unblock in this matter should SR be unblocked, in a patently chilling manner. The 40 plus combined posts these two have made here on this thread on the Administrator's Noticeboard, the major Wikipedia Admin noticeboard, call for a review, as I see it, by an uninvolved admin. Please, review this entire request thread, and if need be, take appropriate action. We are way over the line, as I see it. Thanks. Jusdafax (talk) 05:46, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Speaking as another unblock supporter, I don't interpret I hope that this appeal is declined. But if it isn't, if the en-wiki community just falls back on let's-give-yet-another-second-chance, it might just be a subject ripe for Trust and Safety as "threatening to take to T&S those voting for an unblock in this matter". I think what Tryptofish is trying to say (correct me if I'm wrong) is "The community clearly doesn't agree here so this needs a formal ruling from the WMF as to where the line should be drawn". Needless to say I disagree—I can't think of anything less likely to cool tempers than inviting the WMF to impose their own idiosyncratic definition of "appropriate conduct" onto English Wikipedia—but I don't believe the suggestion was either made in bad faith or intended to have any kind of chilling effect. (To reiterate, this whole thing looks to me like a completely routine WP:ROPE case. I honestly don't understand why so many words are being expended on it; the only three possible outcomes are "SashiRolls doesn't get unblocked", "SashiRolls gets unblocked and doesn't cause problems" or "SashiRolls gets unblocked, causes problems and promptly gets reblocked", none of which would be earth-shaking or set some kind of drastic precedent.) ‑ Iridescent 06:16, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I don't think "chilling" is the apt word, but I also don't think the statement in question has the connotation of "the community clearly doesn't agree". It says if the community doesn't agree with a specific desired outcome, then a fourth outcome may be pursued. isaacl (talk) 17:27, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm not really saying that this would be something to pursue if the community cannot agree, so much as it might be something to pursue if the community cannot get its act together. So Jusdafax seems to be formally calling for a review of my conduct, and KoA's. I pointed out earlier in this discussion that some editors have been coming here to defend SR because they see SR as having been on their "team" in previous content disputes. One of the biggest of those was GMOs. And don't for a minute underestimate Jusdafax's participation in that. If you go here and keep reading through to the section about Semitransgenic, you can see just where Jusdafax is coming from. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:01, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Sure, so assuming by "get its act together" you mean agree with a specific outcome you have in mind, then failing to reach this outcome might cause another outcome to be pursued. (I don't think the rest of your comment is related to mine.) isaacl (talk) 03:43, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Support Enough time has elapsed that SashiRolls should be given another chance. Their contribution to other Wiki projects shows that they want to be part of the project, are aware of its rules and want to contribute. I note that three of the editors opposing unbanning have had content disputes with SashiRolls and were themselves indefinitely blocked and returned. I don't see why they should be allowed back and SashiRolls shouldn't. TFD (talk) 07:01, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Three mysteriously unnamed editors? This is exactly what I mean when I point to WP:2WRONGS. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:01, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Could you please avoid personal attacks against me such as your claims that I was arguing WP:2WRONGS. Please assume good faith. These three editors were permanently blocked and returned and have managed to remain unblocked for a long time now. The moral is that editors can learn. I didn't mention the names because it should no longer be held against them. But you can check the block logs of all the editors in this discussion.

  Incidentally, I agree it's time for you to stop arguing. I should be able, like other editors to post my opinion without having to explain them to you. I didn't add a comment after your vote. TFD (talk) 00:26, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm replying because you directed that at me. Thank you for clarifying that you meant that those three editors came back and were net positives, which is evidence that people can learn and improve. The way you originally wrote it seemed to me to mean that those three editors were just as at fault as SR, and so, to be fair, SR should be treated the same as those three others, and my point is that SR should be evaluated on his own merits, and not excused because someone else supposedly had been. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:39, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  In the same edit as the comment above, you wrote, "some editors have been coming here to defend SR because they see SR as having been on their "team" in previous content disputes". So: some mysteriously unnamed editors? Levivich (talk) 22:05, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  You're right, that's a valid point. Where I said that, I was referring to Jusdafax. Unless someone wants me to, I won't try to make a comprehensive list of the others. But in the interest of making it plural, let's add your participation at pretty much every AE discussion about SR, where, in every case, the reviewing admins concluded that your assertions were not factual. But, in any case, the discussion here is about SR's appeal, and TFD's complaint that the fact that unspecified other editors were unblocked should be a reason to unblock SR is WP:2WRONGS. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:34, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  where, in every case, the reviewing admins concluded that your assertions were not factual is not factual. You're now approaching 30 replies in this discussion; it might be time to stop attacking people who are voting support. Levivich (talk) 22:42, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Alright, almost every case. Are you trying to chill my participation? And, to be precise, I'm responding to people who are attacking me. If you don't want me to reply to you, don't direct a comment at me. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:46, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  almost every case is also not factual. In fact, nobody has ever said that my arguments in any AE was "not factual". Plenty of people have disagreed with my interpretations, my conclusions, my principles... but not my facts. Because at AE I post diffs. The suggestion that I have made false statements of fact... is false. Attacking my credibility was low and uncalled-for, same as your attack on Justdafax's motives, and others', including Sashi's. I've never understood quite why you've had such a bee in your bonnet about Sashi to the point that you bludgeon every discussion about him and even go so far as to attack those who disagree with you, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who's noticed. Levivich (talk) 23:02, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I feel strongly because I was on the receiving end of SR's malicious behavior. But I'm not the issue here, no matter how hard you or other enablers try to make me the issue. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:05, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  See? You called me an "enabler". That's another attack. Isn't it just OK that we disagree about whether or not Sashi's site ban should be lifted (or should have been imposed in the first place)? Do we have to also label those we disagree with, impugn their motives or their credibility? Can't we agree that we're both reasonable people looking at the same set of data and coming to different conclusions about it? For example, I'm not accusing you or anyone else of axe grinding or holding a grudge or trying to use bans as a way to win a content dispute or anything like that. I think the original ban was uncalled for, and that in any event, two years of productive contribs to sister projects is sufficient to demonstrate that an editor can productively contribute to this project. You disagree. That's fine with me. I hope it's fine with you, too. Levivich (talk) 23:50, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Ha! To be absolutely honest, I wanted to see if you would pick up on that, and you did! So, let's look earlier in this discussion. I said: I want to respond to that point about supposedly holding petty grudges. For me, this is no more about holding a grudge, than it is about being an enabler when editors who have long memories about past disputes over GMOs or AmPol come here to support the request on behalf of someone they perceive as having been on their "team". And an awfully high percentage of the editors who have commented here fit that description. So we can go back and forth calling one another grudge-holders or enablers, or we can look at what would be in the best interests of this project. Then, when I referred back to that, by saying: I pointed out earlier in this discussion that some editors have been coming here to defend SR because they see SR as having been on their "team" in previous content disputes, you jumped on it because I had said "some editors", instead of naming them. You berated me over having a "bee in my bonnet", and now you say that you aren't accusing me of holding a grudge. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:05, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  To quote from a much earlier discussion, Good people make bad mistakes, more than once. Levivich (talk) 00:48, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Levivich, I was there at that AE.[20] You did have credibility issues that admins pretty politely rebuked you in your pursuit of Tryptofish there. That is your problem to deal with, not something to label as an attack when pointed out, nor is it appropriate to pursue and rile up editors and claim they have a been in their bonnet about someone else when you are the one shaking the bee (I can say as an entomologist, don't antagonize bees).

  Please take this as a serious warning that you need to back off on the battleground behavior you were warned about at ANI.[21] in pursuing editors. You and I have talked about that plenty before. Not only is it disruptive and blowing up the size of this section, but what you are doing is hardly even centered on SR anymore. The reality is that SR also had serious issues in their motives and actions at the ban discussion and prior. Denying that doesn't help SR return, nor does going on tangents in your pursuit of Tryptofish. It only muddies the water and makes the potential for an unban move towards no consensus. That behavior honestly made things worse for SR then (which is why I brought it up earlier in this thread), and you doing it sure doesn't help them now. I'll be one to say I wasn't really planning to post here again until I saw this going on, so knock it off and let everyone move on. KoA (talk) 00:25, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Funny, I didn't read I don't find his evidence of "Tryptofish following SashiRolls" to be persuasive. and Levivich seems to be the only one attempting to present any evidence of misconduct by Tyrptofish, but I'm not actually seeing anything in there that demonstrates any wrongdoing as being rebukes. I'll be sure to treat your warning with the seriousness it deserves. Levivich (talk) 00:45, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  One can get some perspective on this part of the discussion by looking at the first thing I said in the previous discussion that culminated in the ban that SR is now appealing: [22]. Look at what I said then. I wasn't looking for it. Someone (Levivich!) started posting incorrect things about me, and only that made me feel compelled to involve myself. It was way past a second chance then, and it was redundant then. And there's a cost to this project when editors like me become discouraged by disputes like this, and decrease our contributions as a result. How many more times does the community have to say "enough is enough"? And for those who are complaining now that I'm commenting here too much, by my count roughly 26 of the comments I've posted are direct responses to other editors who addressed me by name, or who insulted me, or who misrepresented something I had said or done. --Tryptofish (talk) 13:47, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  @Tryptofish: You may want to review the principles of WP:Bludgeon and how they align with civility. You've made your point extremely/abundantly clear. If you continue, despite repeated requests for you to stop [23] [24] [25] [26] , I will be asking for a block for the duration of this thread as it is becoming disruptive. (link to this addition for ease of use [27]) Buffs (talk) 15:48, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  One of those diffs is actually KoA agreeing with me. And you don't exactly have a lot of credibility lecturing me about civility. I guess the truth stings. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:59, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  @Tryptofish: KoA may have agreed, but he also asked you to stop...you haven't...here we are... Buffs (talk) 20:17, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I've just re-read that about ten times, and I'm not seeing anywhere he said that. @KoA: did I miss anything? --Tryptofish (talk) 21:22, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  You are indeed correct; I misread it. Stricken Buffs (talk) 21:27, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Thanks. KoA, no need for you to reply here. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:00, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  For what it's worth, given that Tryptofish was directly impacted by SashiRolls, one way or another, I think he has every right to comment and make his argument. An admin will step in if it's necessary. What does semi-retirement mean anyway? 🌈WaltCip-(talk) 01:24, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Support - I echo a many of the same sentiments other supporters have expressed. Atsme 💬 📧 12:40, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• I know I'm going to get yelled at for this. But SR has posted this on his talk page: [28]. One can see it positively, as a demonstration of making constructive edits. But the promise to ignore food-fights and don't interact with folks who have never given and will likely never give up on their quests cuts both ways. On the plus side, it's a promise to stay away from fights. That's good. But it's also, beyond any doubt, a commentary about me and maybe other editors including KoA and VM and others. That latter aspect was not necessary, as he could have just said something like don't interact with folks where there could be a conflict, which would have been neutral language and not problemmatic. I'm willing to allow, under the circumstances, that he should be able to let off some steam. But he has to know that his comments during this AN discussion are going to be scrutinized (and even copied here), and that he is under a 1-way IBAN towards me. If he is flirting with a violation of that, at least borderline, while the appeal is still going on, I think that leaves little room for doubt what will happen if the decision here is to grant the appeal under the expectation that his every move will be scrutinized. Again, I know I'm going to get yelled at now. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:28, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Let’s try this method. Thank you Tryptofish for bringing this up, and that’s it. We don’t need another argument stemming from this, we don’t need to waste another thousand words for the closer to read. Next person’s vote, please. starship.paint (exalt) 01:36, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose I was concerned about this request from early on, but not concerned enough to look into it more. However SashiRolls comments have convinced me to come off the fence. I'm sure others have been wrong in the way they interacted with SashiRolls, however it's clear that there was also a lot of wrong in the way SashiRolls behaved. While SashiRolls may be sincere in their desire to avoid problem areas and disputes, I'm always sceptical that someone can when they don't properly appreciate that they were the problem which is clearly the case whoever else may also be or have been the problem. However SashiRolls comments lead me to believe they do not properly understand that they were the problem. I'd add that for someone who was given as many chances as SashiRolls, I don't consider that their ban time has been that long. Given all that, their contributions in other projects aren't enough to make me think things will be better this time around, especially since I'm not convinced that the same issues that have arisen here so easily arise in those other projects. To be clear, this means I'm not saying never, but not now and probably not soon either. Nil Einne (talk) 15:08, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• For what it's worth, I reaffirm my support for the ban to be lifted. SashiRolls has continued to edit productively on other projects during this discussion, and I concur with Iridescent that this is a WP:ROPE situation. Yngvadottir (talk) 02:53, 13 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ditto. Victim statements are important, but they [should] carry no more weight than any other edititor's evidence, and in a case like this where even many of the opposes admit a degree of disinterest ("Weak oppose", etc), the views of one editor should not be the arbitor of the entire discussion, nor color the discussion in its entirety. Indeed, much of the 'victim statement' peripatetically scattered throughout the above discussion could equally fall under the decription of bludgeoning, even when they themselves, quote/unquote know they're going to get yelled at for this whilst acknowledging the possible positivity of SR's editing *facepalm* SN54129 13:09, 13 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • +2. Sashi's productive editing elsewhere is far more persuasive to me than the oppose voters' rationales. Levivich (talk) 16:58, 13 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      • IMO it's not so persuasive when people who didn't think there was a problem to begin with, when there was consensus for a ban, return to say there's still not a problem. There was consensus for a ban, so I would hope the closer weighs more heavily the opinions of those who saw the initial problem as problematic and have reconsidered (or who didn't participate previously which, to be clear, does apply to Yngvadottir AFAICT). YMMV. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 21:15, 13 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
        • Indeed, the denialism aspect has been mentioned quite a bit already, so editors who continue to deny the past issuses are still contributing to the problems we had at the last ANI. We can't so easily just turn around and say sure, no big deal, on an unban with the attitudes I've been seeing in those !votes. For those of us that have been trying to weigh different avenues for SR, removing that aspect would make discussions on this particular topic much easier to work through. That only results in editors having to plant their feet in the ground to hold such fringe viewpoints at bay while at the same time making themselves appear more partisan than they really are. KoA (talk) 22:27, 13 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • SN54129, I will remind you that WP:NPA does apply on admin boards for could equally fall under the decription of bludgeoning, and I really suggest striking that. That Tryptofish, one of SR's main targets, was attacked and piled on (not to mention lied about repeatedly) at this board is not an excuse to victim blame. They have every right to talk about what happened to them over very numerous SR interactions and respond to the numerous lies/WP:ASPERSIONS that came up here about Tryptofish. It really amounts to "quit hitting yourself" comments ironically blaming the person being bludgeoned by attackers for blugeoning, and it's well past time comments like yours stopped. Most of that stuff had already been debunked about Tryptofish and in part why the block request had to be pulled below. I think we're at the point where if editors continue WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior here, especially since there wasn't anything inflammatory recently until your comment here, they seriously need to click the Log out button in the upper right corner and take a breather. It's only serving to disrupt this board at this point and distract from SR. KoA (talk) 22:27, 13 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• I want to reaffirm my support for the close request below. It looks to me like there is absolutely nothing new in any of the comments that follow Nil Einne's comment. Editors are just repeating what they said earlier, in case anyone looking on is hard of hearing. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:00, 13 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Support - I supported the ban in 2020 however a lot can change in 2 years, Sash hasn't caused any more dramah elsewhere and has seemingly been editing constructively - One could argue the 2020 ban was their final chance or the one before that but I believe in giving second/third chances, A lot can change in 2 years but if it hasn't changed they'd be blocked quicker than anyone can blink so support. –Davey2010^Talk 00:10, 14 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Support The fact that someone has been blocked does not mean they cannot contribute positively at any point in the future, especially considering it has been two years since the block was imposed. Partofthemachine (talk) 03:24, 14 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Block request

Close request

I believe this discussion has run its course. I think it's best if someone appropriate will please close this thread as they see fit and as they assess is the community consensus. Buffs (talk) 05:09, 12 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Concurred. starship.paint (exalt) 13:27, 12 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]