Hi there. After a violent controversy on the Sciences Po talk page and an edit war, the Sciences Po article has been fully protected. Several editors (including myself) have tried to step-in to restore a positive work dynamics, but it now becomes clear that user Launebee has a personal agenda. After 2 months (!) and a lot of energy spent trying to build consensus, we arrive at a stage in which we really need admin attention. Anybody to help? Thanks! SalimJah (talk) 15:20, 2 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I have asked two admins to look into this after seeing that the user in question can be reasonably assumed to be the same user who was blocked on French wikipedia for similar agenda pushing. It is quite clearly impossible to make even the simplest of improvements on that page (like adding a reflist:30em to the references section, which was not done despite a protected edit request). Perhaps Launebee is writing a thesis on media studies and is actively experimenting? I don't know exactly what the motivation is, but the result is clearly disruption. (I have been marginally "involved" in the last few days because of 2 edits: 1) responding to an RfC and 2) testing the waters with a protected edit request.) SashiRolls (talk) 21:19, 2 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sanctions needed over personal attacks

It seems the personal attacks against me are continuing.

“Violent controversy" perhaps, but not from my part. I do not have a "personal agenda" or test "media disruption", I was just helping the SP page among others but they were against obvious changes which needed to be done (Jytdog looked into my intervention in the last ANI :

The previous ANI request is here : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive935#Agressive_comments_over_Sciences_Po_page

As you can see, the Talk:Sciences_Po and Talk:Panthéon-Assas_University talk pages have become a place a place for not discussing content anymore but only me, with special section about me! They are discussing there my link with a French Wikipedia account, but my personal knowledge of the French user is totally irrelevant. Even if it is true that I know the French user, and? How is it relevant for us to know is SP is a university or not?

They is also, on both article, a special subsection comparing the fact that MSGJ and I put templates in front of the SP page, and they think they should therefore be entitled to put the same templates in the Panthéon-Assas page, without any explanation in talk of for example how there would be close paraphrasing because somehow all of this would be a fight between the two, and then if there is a template in one, there is to be one on the second!? Because XIIIfromTOKYO made a disruptive editing on Panthéon-Assas, I made this request for protection accepted for one week :

But now I am subject to even more personal attacks, for example:

• According to MePhisto, I have "claimed that Pantheon-Sorbonne "has no campus" and deleted vast amounts of information on degrees and admissions at HEC Paris (These are just a few examples)", for Pantheon-Sorbonne with no campus, it was a mistake I clearly acknowledged right away long time ago [1], and for HEC, see for yourself what I did
• I just wanted to let people know that one of the users was at least formerly part of a SP project using Wikipedia, and they started to take on me.
• I was kindly informing XIIIfromTOKYO that he was misreading the French edit summary, he answered "You are clearly trying to cover paid contributions." ?!
• SashiRolls was saying that "university" should be used for SP as an "approximation", so I asked in the TeaHouse what was the Wikipedia policy on approximations and I got a useful answer from ColinFine. But XIIIfromTOKYO says I am "trying to attack contributors on their "Approximations"".
• On SP talk page, there was a section on Panthéon-Assas, so off-topic, so I said I moved it the the right talk page, and answered. XIIIfromTOKYO answered back in PA page, so he was aware of the move, but then he acted as if I simply deleted the message and attacked me by writing in a summary edit by writing "how dare you ? Erasing my message, and not even telling me so... and wrote in SP talk page "to make it clear Launebee has just tryed to remove my message. And of course, he/she didn't even bother to tell me about it. The same method has been used on the French Wikipedia.", even though he just answered the message in PA talk page ?!

Now the two talk page are pages to do "comparative study" on me etc. It’s becoming harassment. Can someone do someone do something to stop this?

The problem is now even more serious because XIIIfromTOKYO, to somehow compensate the SP page, is defaming PA. He links to articles dealing with far-right groups in the 1970s with students from PA, and some students that have been trying to have a group with the same name in PA, but with no success (they just existed a few years with only a few students), and he’s transforming it to completely defamatory statements I won’t even copy or link (with the title in the link) here, because it would mean that the history of this page would have to be worked on too. But you can easily find it in PA talk page.

All of this is becoming really wrong. I was just discussing the fact SP is not a university, and now look what the pages look like.

I would like, once again, these personal attacks to stop.

--Launebee (talk) 00:48, 3 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Just out of curiosity, from the point of view of someone outside of this squabble / différend, could you answer the following question clearly: Are you saying 1) that you know the French user Droas82 (talk page) but 2) are not that user? The similarity in tone and style is striking.

For information here is a birds-eye picture of that user in action (being reverted by 3 different users: XIII from Tokyo, Jules78120, Olivier Tanguy) [2]. I've read Droas82's first warning (at the equivalent of ANI) at French Wikipedia (23 juin) and decided to stop there (since research indicates that there were problems every week: [3])

Regarding the claims of promo: yes, of course, there is promo everywhere. That does not strike me as a reason to prevent collaborative efforts to minimize such promotion and work towards NPOV. The page history is quite clear. You are not making progress on improving that page, since nothing can currently be done on that page. My two cents worth on the subject as a passerby who decided to look into the quarrel on the page, first because the RfC seemed absurd and second because I wanted to understand why Launebee was being accused of deleting talk page comments. SashiRolls (talk) 10:12, 3 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Droas82 and Launebee were created on fr-wiki and en-wiki within 15m of each other and immediately started editing exactly the same topic. I doubt it's a coincidence ... -78.151.144.185 (talk) 18:14, 10 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@SashiRolls: I am not claiming anything, I am saying it is off‑topic and you have to stop attacking me.

@NeilN:You told me long time ago to tell you if the attacks continue, and now it is gone to the point that XIIIfromTOKYO is accusing me of antisemitism in PA talk page, with a obvious misquoting of me! What is the next stage? He has to be strongly sanctionned for this absoulutely outrageous personal attack. He is now defaming me!

@Mr rnddude:I also ask for these defaming statements against me to be deleted in the current version and in the history.

Please do something.

--Launebee (talk) 10:49, 3 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

To make such a claim, you would need to provide a diff of @XIIIfromTOKYO: accusing you of anti-semitism. I read that page, s/he did nothing of the sort. S/He reminded you to be careful of what you write, calling you out for what you, yourself wrote in the heat of the moment, and nothing more. (While that "calling out" was not really necessary, it certainly wasn't defamation.) p.s. the verb is "defame", not "defamate", I've read this word (too) often in your prose. SashiRolls (talk) 12:10, 3 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Stopping by here quickly to make a relatively small comment. XIIIfromTokyo's comments were unnecessary and probably skirting the line of civility. There is a difference between calling you an antisemite and suggesting that you've said something antisemitic. However, I don't think you've said anything antisemitic either, so even implying/hinting at it can understandably cause offense. That said, I cannot delete or revdel the comments as I am not an administrator. I also left a comment at Talk:Panthéon-Assas University about some of the disputed content. Mr rnddude (talk) 13:50, 3 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

He did not call me antisemitic but said I said the Jews are foreigners, and is linking me to fascist regimes from the WW2. That is clearly libelous because I clearly did not say such a thing, which would be a crime (hate speech). This attack is absolutely outrageous! --Launebee (talk) 14:28, 3 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, I would like all the current sections with only personal attacks on me to be erased. But the most important is the libelous statements of XIIIfromTokyo: I did not call Jews foreigners, not at all! --Launebee (talk) 11:24, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You are accusing me of "libelous statements" (among other things).

You have accused 75.156.54.227 of sexism.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but you have also listed MePhisto and SashiRolls as contributors guilty of personnal attacks [4].

You have also tryed to discredit Salim Jah and MePhisto, and you have described them as "single-purpose account".

That's a lot of accusions, don't you think ? XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 15:50, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Launebee That is clearly libelous But the most important is the libelous statements of XIIIfromTokyo Friendly advice... Those words that you have used could be constituted as a Legal threat. Per WP:No Legal Threats Do not make legal threats on Wikipedia. Users who do so are typically blocked from editing while the threats are outstanding. I strongly suggest that you either retract those statements or indicate that you are not seeking to bring legal proceedings against an editor. Hasteur (talk) 03:17, 5 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

On that page, it is written: "A discussion as to whether material is libelous is not a legal threat." --Launebee (talk) 09:19, 5 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I'm aware of, I have always given reliable sources (large newspapers), so nothing can be qualified as false accusations. More often than not, I have given citations, and translations.

So far, you haven't given even the slightest clue to prove "That is clearly libelous". So I don't really see how you can call that "a discussion". XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 14:01, 5 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Launebee is successfully driving our attention away from content, dragging this thread into an endless 'personal attack' argument. He also tried this strategy with me while I was trying to restore a positive work atmosphere on the Sciences Po talk page. He's flooding us with 'arguments', forcing us to address them until we forget what the subject matter actually is, or simply give up. Assuming good faith all along, I've done my part in the past couple months on the Sciences Po talk page. (See, e.g., this ridiculous debate). As we discuss personal matters, Wikipedia is losing. I urge everybody to stick to the *facts*. Compare Launebee's edit history on the Panthéon-Assas University and the Sciences Po pages, consider his behavior on the respective talk pages, evaluate the evidence provided by XIIIfromTOKYO. Agenda pushing is clear, disruptive behavior is evident. SalimJah (talk) 18:15, 5 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Who is driving the attention away from content? The SP talk page has become a study on me, and not on issues anymore. Why? Because I only asked for comments about SP not being a university, and I bring sources to that (it is easy it is ridiculous). You created a thread on me because you are not happy on content. --Launebee (talk) 18:37, 7 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Could anyone have a look at this contribution by Launebee on the Sciences Po article. 6,473 bytes added, mainly to list any single scandal related to this college. As of today, it represents 28 references, for a total of 33 references. It looks like a WP:UNDUE. It's very weird, because Launebee's contributions on the Panthéon-Assas University article are very different. These colleges are considered as rivals in France.

An other point that I would like to be checked is this contribution by Launebee. S/he turned the wording linked to various aspects of his lifestyle into linked to his controversial gay livestyle (I added the emphasize). Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is not stated by the reference. He is described as a "controversial figure in French academia" (because of his strategic choices), but nowhere in this article his alleged homosexuality is linked to any "controversial livestyle". That's an other very poor choice of words.

XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 18:26, 5 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Instead of discussing me in SP talk page, and the SP page here, I suggest you focus on content in the SP talk page, to simply kindly proposing another choice of word (and not making a statement on me personnally), and I would have kindly answered to you. About scandals, it even the title of a series of articles of a newspaper: ^[1] About controversial gay lifestyle, it is not from me, I copied it from the Richard Descoings article, it is possible to discuss it.

But it is off-topic here. The topic is you and others transforming SP and PA talk pages on places for personal attacks on me (and now even libel), away from content discussions. It is

--Launebee (talk) 18:37, 7 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You made the choice to put homophobic slurs in the article.

You didn't even check the references.

You didn't even mention in the article that you copied/pasted it from an other article. CC-BY-SA is not optional.

And you did all of that to write a text that clearly fall under the scope of WP:UNDUE. XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 07:00, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You insisted I said antisemitic things, now you are saying I am writing homophobic things! There is nothink homophobic about saying his gay lifestyle is controvesial, on the contrary. See for example this newspaper article saying that his gay lifestyle was taboo and is denouncing the fact it had to be.

Can someone stop these insults toward me?

--Launebee (talk) 02:08, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Obviously, you have no idea of what is written in the article. How could it be controversial, if it was hidden, and that no one has ever heard of it before his death ? You wrote in the article that his gay lifestyle was conroversial, and that it hurted the school's reputation.

Anone can see that what you wrote in the article wasn't backed by any reference. XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 10:45, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sincerely, how to discuss with you when all is about attacking me personnaly? We could have had this discussion, in SP talk page, in a civil manner, but no, you choose to say outrageous things about me (using Jews), and you take everything I copied on Wikipedia to attack me and say I am evil intended. This "discussion" is pointless. You have to stop acting like that. --Launebee (talk) 21:40, 11 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You are not answering the questions. XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 10:36, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Break

You've got a damn cheek, I'll grant you that. :) Back to the facts -- again and again! You started an edit war based on those rather violent exchanges. The talk page has grown exponentially since then, which makes for a *lot* of arguments. And while you managed to put banners everywhere, deleted a lot of content, added a scandal section, and then got the article fully protected until March 2017 (!), the consensus on the Sciences Po talk page runs unambiguously *against* your positions. We can see from the talk page that people were willing to debate and compromise. But even when questions can be resolved clearly based on simple factual evidence, you reject it all and prevent any progress being made on the subject matter. Some get upset and leave (the IP that you edit warred), some simply give-up (you win by K.O.), and some (the craziest of all) waste their time and energy on the issue (that's me :) ). The question of whether Sciences Po can be described as a university is a clear-cut example. Based on your argument, Sciences Po cannot be described as a university. You maintain: it is legally a Grande Ecole, period. But then MIT and ETH Zurich shouldn't be described as universities either, right? The precise location of the campus is another clear-cut example. People can't say that Sciences Po "encircles Boulevard Saint Germain". Why? "Once again a tentative to artificially associate Sciences Po with 'great' things!" So you refuse, even in the face of contributors who dig out the campus map, for God's sake! In the meantime, you're quite happy with the formulation that "the majority of the nineteen campuses of Panthéon-Assas are located in the Latin Quarter" in the Panthéon-Assas article. Well... And it goes on and on. (Sorry, I did not intend to write-up a serialized novel here...) Bottom line is: at the very least, you simply refuse to compromise when consensus runs against you. This is toxic for our project and community, and it needs to stop. So what do we do now? SalimJah (talk) 20:09, 7 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Could an admin intervene? These people are not happy with mere facts so they are attacking personally. I’ve tried to explain them again and again but it is obviously not working. Doesn’t anyone has a problem that I was wrongfully accused of antisemitism? --Launebee (talk) 21:20, 7 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

+1! BTW, you still haven't responded to SashiRolls's above request that you clarify your relationship to the French user who recently got blocked for similar disruptive behavior on the same pages. I quote:

"Just out of curiosity, from the point of view of someone outside of this squabble / différend, could you answer the following question clearly: Are you saying 1) that you know the French user Droas82 (talk page) but 2) are not that user? The similarity in tone and style is striking." SalimJah (talk) 22:46, 7 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I answered that it is off‑topic, and in case I know him, it does not change anything at all, it is absolutely pointless. There is absolutely no link with the question of SP being a university or not. --Launebee (talk) 23:19, 7 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Him ?

XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 07:23, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Just a comment at the "Once again a tentative to artificially associate Sciences Po with 'great' things!"[5]. That's clearly Launebee's strategy on the Panthéon-Assas University article. In the lead s/he introduced ""Heir of the faculty of law and economics of the University of Paris (La Sorbonne), it was established as its successor when the world's second oldest academic institution was divided into autonomous universities in 1970. It is a member of the alliance Sorbonne University."". The Sorbonne is only a building, and has never been used by the faculty of law. And the university of Paris was by no way a medieval university. It was founded in 1896. The medieval university was dibanded more than a centrury before that, in 1793.

Once again, Sciences Po and Assas are often considered as rivals in France. As anyone can see, Launebee's contributions are more than questionable. They are always excessively favorable when related to Assas, and unfavorable when related to Sciences Po. XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 07:23, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Legal threats

I have provided yesterday about 10 news articles, published by well known French newspapers (national one, from different political leanings).

Today, @Launebee: used the title "Reminder of what is libelous" to answer[6]. It was not the first time that s/he used this legal reference.

@Hasteur: told him less than a week ago that "Danger, we've entered NLT territory". Hasteur asked Launebee to remove his/er comment, or to amend it. Launebee refused to remove that first comment, and said what s/he was simply started a "discussion as to whether material is libelous (is not a legal threat)". That discussion never actually started.

Today again, Launebee don't even try to start a discussion about that, that is say using Arguments to proove his/her statement.

That's clearly an intimidation attempt. XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 11:40, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Everyone can see that I take each time the time to explain calmly to you things, but you keep answering agressively. I gave examples in my first message here. And Mr rnddude explained in PA talk page it is not legal threat from my part. --Launebee (talk) 00:04, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You are calmly threatening contributors away.

You are calmly describing victims of antisemitism and racism as "foreigners".

You are calmly putting homophic slurs in {{Sciences Po]]' article.

Did I miss something ? XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 09:52, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Can someone do something about this user continuing to do outrageous statements about me ? @NeilN:You told me long time ago to tell you if the attacks continue, this urer is telling at least for the third time that I called Jews foreigners, even if I clearly did not, I told him I did not, and Mr rnddude intervened because I clearly did not. (And he is doing the same thing about homosexuals now). Can’t anyone temporarily block this user for repetitively having made such despicable statements about me? (More all the other personal attacks etc.) --Launebee (talk) 14:45, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Homophobic slurs in the Sciences Po article? XIIIfromTOKYO, Launebee hasn't touched the Sciences Po article since September of this year. You're either referring to the talk page (in which case point me to the discussion/comment) or a very old edit to the article (in which case I'll need a diff please). The only other alternative is that you mean Pantheon-Assas' article or talk (in which case diff again please). Otherwise, the claim of homophobia is a brightline violation of NPA policy and I'm going to ask that you strike it. Mr rnddude (talk) 20:28, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Mr rnddude:You can see above he is refering to me copying, a long time ago, the Richard Descoings article mentioning his "controversial gay lifestyle". You can see I explained to him there is absolutely nothing homophobic saying this, on the contrary, and I gave him anti-homophobia article link about the fact that his homosexuality is taboo (a lot of articles deal with the fact his gay lifestyle was controversial and the possible link with his death has been underlined, eg [7][8][9][10][11]), but he continues to say anyway that I put homophobic content and that I wrote Jews are foreigners, even though both are obviously absolutely false:( (he is in general saying a lot of other things about me, as I stated above, but these are the most shocking). --Launebee (talk) 23:19, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I can't help noticing that one of your links is "How did another top Frenchman come to grief in New York?". TOO MUCH INFORMATION! EEng 23:33, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• hwalibrary.com: Linksearch en (insource) - meta - de - fr - simple - wikt:en - wikt:fr • MER-C X-wiki • gs • Reports: Links on en - COIBot - COIBot-Local • Discussions: tracked - advanced - RSN • COIBot-Link, Local, & XWiki Reports - Wikipedia: en - fr - de • Google: search • meta • Domain: domaintools • AboutUs.com

Gtaeaicg (talk · contribs) is going through [Armstrongism] related articles removing links to [12] with the edit summary "removed: links to DMCA, Digital Millennium Copyright violations". I don't know if this is legitimate or something else, but this edit changing "Other nonstream teachings" to "Other teachings Christ Himself taught" alerted me to a possible problem. And [13] changed source text. Doug Weller talk 19:05, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

No opinion at this time (apart from noting that changing dots to commas in URLs borders on plain vandalism) but editors might want to look at MarkS7982 (talk · contribs) at the same time. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 19:11, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It is not legitimate. This is not how the DCMA works. Someone doing this should be blocked on sight. --Tagishsimon (talk) 19:13, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Of course it's not how DCMA works. But how are the links? Spammy? Free of copyright problems? -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 19:17, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I've reverted all of the removals, which seem to point to http://www.hwalibrary.com/ ... if they're to be removed it should be for valid, not invalid reasons. --Tagishsimon (talk) 19:21, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I've still no real opinion, but just to quote Gtaeaicg, "site contains .. Copyright .. violations". Whether to restore this link, which was removed for a stated policy-compliant reason, and was undeniably spammed in the first place, is something to consider carefully. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 19:31, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The edit summaries are in the form: "removed: link to site contains DMCA, Digital Millennium Copyright Act violations" ... which is bogus, and "removed: DMCA violations", which is bogus. The bogus assertion is that the site violates the act, not that there are copyvios on the site. To be clear, the removals were not for a "stated policy-compliant reason", and your very selective quoting of the edit summaries does not help, zzuuzz. --Tagishsimon (talk) 19:39, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I interpret the comments as suggesting it's a link to copyios. I also suggest that the site contains copyrighted material, and that the registered website owner, who spammed the links himself, is not the copyright holder. According to our article, these copyrights have a value and the website has no affiliation. Personally, I would not be happy restoring these links. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 20:42, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In exactly what way is your post immediately above not WP:OUTING, zzuuzz? Outing is normally an immediate block offence, in my experience. Here you are asserting that a person easily identifiable is the identity of a wikipedia user; besides making an assertion/inference, which whether true or not, is wholly unsubstantiated, that the site hosts copyvio material. Might I request admins who take an interest in WP:OUTING to review zzuuzz's post and to handle zzuuzz as they would any other outer? --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:20, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I have informed user:MarkS7982 of this discussion. Since Doug opened this topic, MarkS7982 has reverted one of the removals, showing that they're aware of the issue. -- Finlay McWalter··–·Talk 22:26, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - given the timing of when this began, I'm suspecting that this activity is potentialy related to the above thread #Legal threats by Dollyparton7 - specifically that user's statement " I will be submitting a demand and takedown injunction to Wikipedia Legal for the article to be completely redacted under our United States Legal rights and governing the Digital Millennium Copyright Act."([14]). If related; then this may also call for additional updates to Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Garnerted - pending further input. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 22:55, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It very much looks like another sock. I would suggest adding it to the report. —Farix (t | c) 23:08, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

MarkS7982 replied - I do not know what specific issue is being discussed, but HWALibrary.com has over 10,200 different titles, the person should be more specific. I have been having trouble with “Earl Timmons, The World Tomorrow Evangelistic Association claiming a copyright and Trademark to “The World Tomorrow”. They registered the Trademark “The World Tomorrow” US Patent and Trademark Number 3209903, it has a first use date of 20050122 and a first use in commerce date of 20050312. The media in question and given in the URL’s on HWALibrary.com was created under different Owners and Registration Numbers prior to 2005. One being under registration number 1382752 with a first use date 19550700 and a first use in commerce date of 19550700, the other registration number 0791994 with a first use date 19420601 and a first use in commerce date of 19420601. I do not believe the current owner of registration number 3209903 can claim ownership back any further than the first use date 2005 of their registration number 3209903. I believe the First Use Priority applies to the material in question on HWALibrary.com. For some reason they believe just because they registered a Trademark it is retroactive, but it is not, they have rights to material they produce under the copyright as of 2005 and forward only. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MarkS7982 (talk • contribs) 23:29, 4 December 2016 (UTC) Now there is another issue, @MarkS7982, the rights of copyright date back to May 30, 1942. And @MarkS7982, is also in violation of both dad and granddad's materials. Copyright for all of Garner Ted Armstrong's materials dates back to 1953. Copyright owner, Mark Armstrong. The edits are legit. All linked content of the page is copyright protected, and while sourced still disputed as user Armstrongism noted:[reply]

 19:07, 4 December 2016 (diff | hist) . . (0)‎ . . Armstrongism ‎ (Undid revision 753014441 by Gtaeaicg (talk) the text is sourced, although perhaps disputed looking at https://www.ucg.org/world-news-and-prophecy/he-set-ephraim-before-manasseh)Gtaeaicg (talk) 03:21, 5 December 2016 (UTC)Gtaeaicg[reply]

I did some spot-checking, and if anything, most (but not all) of the links fail our inclusion standards per WP:EL. No analysis on the copyright violations, but if that is claimed, then these links should stay removed per WP:COPYVIO until they have been cleared (and merit inclusion in the first place). --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 03:28, 5 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The site and user in violation, user @MarkS7982; http://www.hwalibrary.com, did indeed spam these links to his personal site where he has uploaded, and made hundreds of changes to copyrighted and trademarked materials he obtained from non-profit unaffiliated church sites and which he is now soliciting personal donations for at his site: https://www.hwalibrary.com/cgi-bin/get/hwa.cgi?action=donate. Clearly this user is violating the trademark name The World Tomorrow, and the HW Amstrong and GT Armstrong audio and video sources. Gtaeaicg (talk) 04:52, 5 December 2016 (UTC)Gtaeaicg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.112.80.243 (talk)

All material in question on HWALibrary.com is on or before January 1986 concerning “The World Tomorrow”. Garner Ted Armstrong was excommunicated from the Worldwide Church of God in 1978 (see Wikipedia); his removal did not transfer the Trademark rights to material held by his father Herbert W Armstrong, nor did the rights transferred to Mark Armstrong (very likely a minor at the time) in 1978. Mark Armstrong may hold the copyrights to his father’s (Garner Ted’s) material after he was removed from the Worldwide Church of God in 1978, but HWALibrary.com does not have any of that material on the site and therefore is not in violation of Garner Ted or Mark Armstrong’s copyrighted material. Also, neither of the Registered Trademark Numbers list Garner Ted, Mark Armstrong or Organizations of theirs as the owners (see Trademark Registration Number 0791994 and 1382752).

Trademark Registration Number 1382752 shows the “Prior” Registrations Number 0791994 which shows transfer from (REGISTRANT) AMBASSADOR COLLEGE NON-PROFIT CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 363 GROVE ST. PASADENA CALIFORNIA – to – (REGISTRANT) WORLDWIDE CHURCH OF GOD NON-PROFIT CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 300 W. GREEN STREET PASADENA CALIFORNIA 91123. There is no such transfer showing on the Trademark in question (3209903) of any -“Prior Registration Number”-. If the Trademark was transferred by Joseph Tkach, Jr. to Earl Timmons why does the Trademark Number 3209903 not show this transfer with a “Prior Registration Number” like the previous transfer shows?

The Trademark Registration Number 3209903 shows a first use date of 20050122 and a first commerce date of 20050312 for a reason and that is to show when the Trademark Registration Number 3209903 was first used by the current owner which is in 2005, this does not reflect ownership of any Trademark or copyright material held by a previous Trademark owner prior to 2005. Those Trademarks (0791994 and 1382752) were marked DEAD and not transferred to anyone per the “Legal” Trademark records. Just because a DEAD Trademark was registered it does not “automatically” give ownership of “all” previous material listed under “different” owners to the New Trademark owner Number 3209903, the New Trademark owner has a Trademark on the material they produce from 2005 forward. MarkS7982 — Preceding unsigned comment added by MarkS7982 (talk • contribs) 16:54, 5 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As for “most (but not all) of the links fail our inclusion standards per WP:EL” I will be more than happy to explain the reason each link was added as soon as I know which links are in question. MarkS7982 — Preceding unsigned comment added by MarkS7982 (talk • contribs) 16:56, 5 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I was wondering if there was an update on this matter per the information I supplied concerning the DMCA accusation.

For clarification, does Wikipedia require a user claiming copyright violation to actual file an actual DMCA where I can file a “Counter Notice”?

Also, concerning the External Links that were removed (per User:Beetstra comment), I am pretty sure, most if not all, links that were removed relate to the material on each page. These Church’s (Organizations) claim affiliation with Herbert W Armstrong and his teachings and the link I added links to an archive library (www.hwalibrary.com) that has a great deal of information about the Worldwide Church of God, Herbert W Armstrong and Garner Ted Armstrong. Would the material on www.hwalibrary.com not meet the WP:EL inclusion standards? Thanks MarkS7982 — Preceding unsigned comment added by MarkS7982 (talk • contribs) 19:01, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

No, Wikipedia does not require a DMCA takedown order for copyrighted material to be removed. Material can be removed as a result of community discussion and a consensus finding that the material is indeed under copyright. Or, if it's blatantly obvious, it can simply be removed by an editor. Also, even some copyrighted material is acceptable on Wikipedia under the Fair Use doctrine (although our rules are more restrictive than Fair Use requires): see WP:NFCC for details. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:06, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@MarkS7982:

• 1. Please do not start your messages with "Reply MarkS7982" or "MarkS7882" (see #3 below for why this is not necessary)
• 2. Please use colons to indent you comments, adding one colon for one additional tab, so if you respond to a comment with 1 colon, your reply should have 2 colons before the text, etc.
• 3. Please sign your messages by adding 4 tildes (i.e. ~~~~) at the end of each one; the system will add your account name and a time/date stamp
• 4. Please use more paragraph breaks in your comments: large blocks of text are hard to read

The way you are commenting now makes it extremely difficult to follow the discussion. These tips will help. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:52, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I've cleaned up the text a little, in an attempt to make it more understandable. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:00, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The links removed stand for HWALibrary (Herbert W Armstrong Library) which falls under the copyright 17 U.S. Code § 108. HWALibrary.com is a free archive library reflecting the life work of Herbert W Armstrong (The Radio Church of God, The Worldwide Church of God, Ambassador College and The Ambassador International Cultural Foundation) which includes "his" publication of "The World Tomorrow" TV program.

HWALibrary.com is free service for researchers or any persons doing private study, scholarship, or research per (17 U.S. Code § 108).

All of the material in question concerning "The World Tomorrow" on HWALibrary.com is 1986 or before to the current DMAC claim (Trademark Number 3209903) which has a first use date of 20050122 (January 22, 2005).

Thanks for the pointers User:Beyond My Ken on posting !MarkS7982 (talk) 12:21, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

And thank you for following them! One further note, though: you have to put the colons in after each paragraph break. I've done it for you in the comment just above this. Beyond My Ken (talk) 17:27, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Question, how can I defend the right to post or add links if no one here will answer or explain why actual laws I am giving are not allowed? I know it seems complicated, but trademark laws are, so will someone here have a conversation with me? I'll go step by step if someone will even acknowledge I'm posting here (about the issue of DMAC and trademarks)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by MarkS7982 (talk • contribs) 11:14, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

MarkS7982

@MarkS7982: I acknowledge your above remark and will take a moment to read through the above - in the mean time, please do go step by step as it will clarify exactly what's going on and what you'd like to see happen -- samtar ^{talk or stalk} 11:19, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

HWALibrary.com has material on it called “The World Tomorrow”, which was created and published under the trademark numbers 0791994 and 1382752, after Mr. Armstrong’s death in 1986, these trademarks for “The World Tomorrow” were not renewed and were marked DEAD.

Years later the person here claiming DMCA saw the (DEAD) Trademark “the World Tomorrow” was available and applied for the use of it November 26, 2004, they were granted the trademark, but that does not mean they own the rights to the Trademark prior to “first use date of 20050122 (January 22, 2005) which is legally showing on the current Trademark 3209903. They own the right to use it as of Registration Date: February 20, 2007 forward, it did not give them ownership of another Organizations previous Trademark material.

I would like to keep the links on Wikipedia, HWALibrary.com is an non-profit educational archive library operating "also" under 17 U.S. Code § 108 which "also" gives it the right to have the material on HWALibrary.com as long as HWALibrary.com follows the required law of a non-profit educational archive library. This law allows the material on the site "even if" the person here had the legal right of the Trademark material. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MarkS7982 (talk • contribs)

Thank you for your reply - have you taken a moment to read through this content guideline? Copyright aside, some editors are of the opinion that some of the links don't meet the guidelines -- samtar ^{talk or stalk} 11:55, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I had read the guidelines and thought the links would be appropriate because each one of these Church/Organizations I added the links to claim to follow the teachings of Herbert W Armstrong and the Worldwide Church of God. The material on HWALibrary.com reflects the 50 plus years of the teachings of Mr. Armstrong and the Worldwide Church of God, so I assumed a link to the original teachings would be helpful for people using Wikipedia so they could see the original teachings for reference and study. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MarkS7982 (talk • contribs) 12:09, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I am hoping I have read the External Links Guideline correctly; it seems the links would be appropriate per my explanation above. I do wish to follow all guidelines here, so I am posting this to see if a mediator or admin see a problem before I add some external links to pages that claim to follow the teachings of Herbert W Armstrong. HWALibrary.com has more than 50 plus years of material that I feel would be of use to other users or researchers here on Wikipedia. If no objections today I will carefully add some EL’s tomorrow and hope to follow all guidelines to the best I understand them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MarkS7982 (talk • contribs) 14:13, 13 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Rjensen (talk · contribs) and I are in agreement that one of us are egregiously violating policy. We just don't agree whom of us it is. The context of this disagreement is this discussion Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Rjensen_and_BLP and the original disagreement here: in which Jensen invokes BLP to justify his removal of a talkpage comment by me that he finds to be unpleasant (I agree that it was). So the questions are: Is an editor who has a biographical article allowed to remove other people's talkpage comments about them if they find them to be false or otherwise in violatoin of BLP. I would say that RJensen is in fact violating both WP:TPO and WP:COI by personally removing comments of other editors with whom he is in a discussion. I have had this discussion before woth Rjsensen who has a habit of editing his own biography to remove material he doesnt like. If it is indeed the case that he is allowed to remove other people's comments under BLP if he dislikes them then I think it would be very nice to clarify this, in which case I can avoid ever interacting with him in the future.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 06:24, 5 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Let me repeat two points I made at Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard: A) Maunus refuses to provide his required RS and instead misquotes Wikipedia. 1) his false statement = Jensen's claim there was never any significant anti-Irish sentiment in the US. 2) He cites the Wikipedia article on me that states Jensen argues that "No Irish Need Apply" signs were mostly a myth and that there was "no significant discrimination against the Irish" in the job market. 3) Actually what I did write was As for the question of anti-Irish prejudice: it existed but it was basically anti-Catholic or anti-anti-republican. There have been no documented instances of job discrimination against Irish men.(FN13) Was there any systematic job discrimination against the Catholic Irish in the US: possibly, but direct evidence is very hard to come by. [Journal of Social History 2002 p 407] Maunus is in deliberate defiance of the BLP rule about verifiability. Rjensen @ 17:30, 30 November 2016. and B) every editor has the right to remove another editor's posts if they fail the BLP rules. Maunus is in deliberate defiance of these BLP rules: 1) " any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be explicitly attributed to a reliable, published source" 2) "Dealing with articles about yourself...Very obvious errors can be fixed quickly, including by yourself." 3) "Although Wikipedia discourages people from writing about themselves, removal of unsourced or poorly sourced material is acceptable." 4) "This page in a nutshell: Material about living persons added to any Wikipedia page must be written with the greatest care and attention to verifiability, neutrality, and avoidance of original research." 5) "This policy applies to any living person mentioned in a BLP, whether or not that person is the subject of the article, and to material about living persons in other articles and on other pages, including talk pages" 6) "Users who persistently or egregiously violate this policy may be blocked from editing." = Rjensen 10:53, 3 December 2016. C now I'll add some new comments: Maunus never tries to explain why his comments comply with WP:BLP As for WP:TPO he violates it too--it states " Pay particular attention to Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons, which applies to talk pages as well as to articles" As for WP:COI it states: "An exception to editing an article about yourself or someone you know is made if the article contains defamation or a serious error that needs to be corrected quickly." My conclusion is that Maunus thinks the BLP rules do not apply to him and he can say any false or nasty thing he wants. Rjensen (talk) 06:47, 5 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

They compky with BLP because the are true and verifiable and not defamatory in any sense. As I have stated. You are known only for your mistaken claim about anti-Irish sentiment - if it werent for that particular controversy and the media attention it got you you would not merit a biography article. And you claim that WASP is a slur. Both are verifiable facts whether you wish they werent or not.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 07:10, 5 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Rjensen: Let's be clear -- the quotes you give refer to the article space. Almost no one gives inline citations for talk page comments about other Wikipedians, and if we applied your standard then you and I would have been violating BLP when we referred to this guy as a sockpuppet. The only source that says that is the Wikipedia SPI, which is a self-published source and therefore unacceptable for BLP purposes. You need to drop this game right now. It's been almost two months since I explained this policy to you,[15]^{[self-published source?]} and I can't help but imagine that others have explained the same thing to you in the past.^{[citation needed]} Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:22, 5 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Leaving aside the BLP concern, your comments could be seen as "personal attack", which could justify the other editor in removing it. Essentially you are accusing another editor of having a double standard: according to you he says there was no anti-Irish sentiment in the U.S. but infers there is anti-English sentiment. But whether or not "WASP" is a slur has nothing to do with what RJensen has argued about anti-Irish sentiment, and the discussion will proceed better without that comment. TFD (talk) 07:02, 5 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Don't leave aside the BLP concern, Jensen's failure to undestand BLP and COI is the core of this issue. I readily admit that my comment was not friendly, but rather sarcastic. I don't think an editor is allowed to remove comments that they believe are personal attacks, but I may be mistaken. And yes I am accusing him of having a double standard. I think he clearly has one. IN any case the point still is if an editor may under BLP remove comments from other editors in spite of WP:TPO and COI - or if they should rather have someone else make that call. And the same goes for the biography itself - Rjensen has several times removed material from his article that he disliked instead of flagging it on the talkpage and having someone else made the decision. This is why I do not trust the judgment of Jensen one little bit when it comes to judging what is a BLP violation and what it a COI. ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 07:08, 5 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:TPO, clear and unambiguous personal attacks can be removed, but not comments that are simply uncivil. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 08:16, 5 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• (Non-administrator comment) I have also noticed Rjensen's curious habit of quoting BLP as though it applied to Wikipedians in out-of-mainspace discussion between said Wikipedians. I found this extremely unusual and potentially problematic since reliable sources are almost never going to be found for any of the statements one would want to make about other Wikipedians and their behaviour. For context, I noticed this problem two months back when he removed a discussion on my talk page between a now-block sockpuppet. I wound up re-removing the offending material anyway, but it was still weird. Just to show how absurd this is: if we applied the "we can't say things about other Wikipedia editors unless reliable sources have said the same" to Wikipedians other than Rjensen, I would have committed a BLP-violation by saying that Imboredsenseless was a sockpuppet just now, since no reliable sources can be found to back up this claim.

I don't think it's a serious problem that merits a block or anything like that, but he should definitely be told to stop invoking BLP when other Wikipedia editors say things about him as a Wikipedian that he doesn't like, and if he keeps it up he should receive a short block. I actually set him straight back in October, but maybe if an admin did the same he would take it more seriously.

Update: On closer examination, it turns out he has done the same thing (blanked all or part of another user's talk page comment because it contained supposed "BLP violations" against him or another user in relation to their Wikipedia activity) at least 24 times since 2010. More than one third of his talk page blankings that cited BLP in their edit summaries were of this type.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:14, 5 December 2016 (UTC) (edited 10:32, 8 December 2016 (UTC) )[reply]

Interaction ban: Rjensen/Maunus

I suggest an indefinite two-way interaction ban between Rjensen and Maunus, neither editor to comment on the other anywhere on Wikipedia. They may edit the same articles, as long as they have edited them in the past, but neither is to change in any way the other's edits, leaving it to other editors to make any necessary adjustments. Neither Rjensen or Maunus shall follow the other editor to a new page they havent edited before. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:32, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Support - Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:32, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• See below Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:31, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Support and let's add Rjensen - Hijiri88 and we can all end this Rjensen (talk) 01:27, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Please use a separate section for that suggestion. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:46, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Let me just add, that if your edits, or those of Maunus, actually do go against policy, this interaction ban is not carte blanche to continue doing them. Any other editor can still revert those kinds of edits, or ask for relief from AN/I or ArbCom, should it come to that. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:48, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Support Maunus-Rjensen IBAN, only because if the problem persists after an IBAN is put in place, that will conclusively prove that if there is a problem here it is not Maunus hounding Rjensen. I remain convinced that Rjensen is (and has been for a very long time) abusing our BLP policy. I therefore think a six-month IBAN would be better than an indefinite one, but would support the latter if if the former is not on the table. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:35, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Changed to Oppose in favour of alternate proposal. (see below). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:30, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. After reading through this monstrous thread, I have to agree with Black Kite in saying that citing BLP in the situation above is nonsensical. I don't think this is a symmetric situation, and treating it with a symmetric IBAN is not going to work. Maunus needs to moderate his language, something he has already acknowledged. Rjensen, on the other hand, needs to stop abusing BLP: and this is a potentially more serious problem, because such misuse compromise neutral editing, and I say this as somebody with experience in a different but hugely contentious area. There are a number of fringe sources in the area of south Asian politics and history, as there are with race-relations in the US. Dealing with these requires discussing their nature on talk pages, and since these sources are ignored by proper RS, these discussions cannot be cited. If we take Rjensen's argument to its logical conclusion, any fringe author of any fringe source that has been ignored by the mainstream media could register an account, and proceed to remove any criticism of their sources from talk pages. This is quite ridiculous. If we must have sanctions at all, I would give maunus a warning about civility, and Rjensen a ban from removing or refactoring talk-page posts of other editors.Note: I have had minor interactions with Rjensen, and somewhat more significant ones with maunus, so I'm not deeply involved here, but not completely uninvolved either. Vanamonde (talk) 10:50, 11 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Vanamonde brings up an interesting hypothetical situation about fringe sources. But it is irrelevant to this discussion. If some editor says "theory ABC is a fraud" then no problem. But is an editor writes about real person XYZ that "XYZ is a fraud" then anyone can call that a BLP and demand reliable sources. it does not have to be XYZ; XYZ does not need to set up a Wiki account under his real name. The BLP rule says that any time any editor makes a contentious statement about a named person then BLP comes into play. Rjensen (talk) 19:39, 11 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose any i-ban or sanction. This is a storm in a teacup. SarahSV ^(talk) 19:59, 11 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

What about the six years of abuse of the BLP policy by someone who really should know better? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:30, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

What does that have to do with the interaction ban? Drmies (talk) 18:41, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Slimvirgin said she opposed "any ... sanction". I have changed my position on the proposed remedy a few times, but opposing all remedies because one has examined the one with the weakest (well, second-weakest) rationale doesn't seem like a good idea. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:16, 13 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose all, per SarahSV. Come, now. The irrelevant parade of horribles above is fun and all but ultimately silly. Actually, it is regularly done and encouraged on talk pages that we quote and cite - that is a well accepted way to promote not only neutrality, but V, NOR, all our content polices -- and, here, it is easy to quote and cite Richard Jensen, should it be relevant to anything at all, as it's published in an Oxford Journal. Similarly, the only asymmetry in this case is Richard Jensen is a known living person. The only thing Maunus has to do (because he seems so bothered by Richard Jensen, in a kind of wp:battle fashion), is in Maunus's comments, make Richard Jensen irrelevant to the comment, which should be easy since we are not suppose to be focusing on the person (and we regularly don't know, who an account is). All Hijiri88 needs to do is not host WP:POLEMIC from banned sock-puppets that refer to people off-site. All Rjensen needs to do is not get blocked for edit warring, per BLPREMOVE. 'Tempest in a teacup' has it. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:34, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Unless some specific policy is violated, or unless it has nothing to do with Wikipedia and someone finds it questionable, I will "host" whatever I please on my user talk page. Trying to turn this around on me because someone posted material on my talk page that you find questionable and that outed them as an obvious sockpuppet, but that was not in itself apparently polemical or unrelated to the project, is pretty disruptive. And the fact that 35% of Rjensen's "BLP" talk page blankings are discussion of Wikipedia editors is a serious cause for concern. Your continued refusal to recognize this baffles me. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:16, 13 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Modified I-Ban: Rjensen/Maunus

• Support, with a modification of the standard IBAN. Because each editor claims the other is violating Wikipedia policies and guidelines (and both seem correct) they each may point out such alleged violations (once, for each alleged violation) to another editor. This should allow admins, not actively monitoring these editors, to step in, if warranted. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 14:25, 10 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. This might save the rest of us the trouble of looking out for further violations. BMK's proposal didn't address the core problem and actually would have made it more difficult to deal with. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:37, 11 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose this strange modification of IBAN does not make much sense. It encourages Rjensen and Maunus to monitor each other on a daily basis. I think the further we stay apart the better. Rjensen (talk) 02:15, 11 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose as above. SarahSV ^(talk) 19:59, 11 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that an indefinite IBAN is a pretty extreme solution to the very minor hounding problems in this thread, but this alternate proposal would allow for future serious violations of the much more serious kind (BLP) to be reported in an appropriate manner. I would love if Vanamonde's proposal that addresses the core issue could pass, but this seems like the best can hope for at the moment. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:30, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose, as above. Vanamonde (talk) 03:13, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Vanamonde93: You and I appear to be in complete agreement here as to what the core problem is (to the point that I was a little hurt that you attributed the view to Black Kite rather than me ;-) ), but unless you open another subthread for your proposal, and even perhaps if you do so, it's not going to pass, and this whole monstrous thread will get archived without any result. This proposal, which recognizes that there exists some kind of problem without placing all the blame on Maunus for "hounding" (if such a thing even happened here), is the best one that's currently on the table. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:30, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose as above. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:39, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Weak support. I don't like iBans but OK. As for the talk page removals--I think there is broad agreement here that Rjensen's invocations of BLP are at least problematic. If that is the case, it is worth its own investigation. Preventing them from removing talk page comments is OK, I suppose, but it strikes me as a bit lame if there are indeed bigger problems. But maybe it's a good idea if they simply ask an admin or someone else to look at the offending comment and ask them to remove it if indeed BLP or NPA is violated. It would also be good if no one really followed anyone else's comments very closely, but I suspect some people are frequently bored. Drmies (talk) 18:46, 12 December 2016 (UTC) [put this in the wrong section...][reply]

User:Drmies first posted the above in the wrong place (the Rjensen/Hijiri88 IBAN proposal), but when I pointed this out he moved it to the section immediately above it (the "warn Maunus, sanction Rjensen" proposal). I then moved it again to its current location, but I'm not sure if what he did was deliberate or not, since there is stuff about talk page removals in the above post, even if it appears to be primarily about Arthur's modified IBAN proposal. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:44, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Warning/Ban: Maunus and Rjensen

Proposal: per Hijiri88's suggestion above, opening this section. I'm proposing that Maunus be warned about WP:CIVILITY, and that Rjensen be banned from removing or refactoring talk-page posts from other editors, with an exception for minor/non-controversial changes. Note, as above: I have had minor interactions with Rjensen, and somewhat more significant ones with maunus, so I'm not deeply involved here, but not completely uninvolved either. Vanamonde (talk) 05:22, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Support as proposer. Vanamonde (talk) 05:53, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Support as appropriate to each's offenses. I suggest formulating RJ's ban as specifically forbidding him to act under the bullets in WP:TPO labeled Removing prohibited material, Removing harmful material and Off-topic posts. EEng 05:50, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Support I would have supported a block for Maunus for the personal attack, but he already acknowledged it was wrong several days ago. Rjensen, on the other hand, has been constantly and aggressively denying that he did anything wrong. I think it might be better if Rjensen's ban explicitly mentioned BLP, though, since if it doesn't the current proposed wording could easily be taken as not applying to BLP, in the same way as 3RR doesn't apply to BLP. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 10:04, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose as above. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:40, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Support just coming around to this after starting the initial talk page conversation that apparently kicked off this kerfuffle. The comment was uncivil and could have been expressed in a better manner, but the removal of content by citing BLP from a talk page is problematic, and at the very least increases the drama. A better approach would have been to ask for it to be removed by Maunus per WP:CIVIL/WP:NPA. BLP shouldn't be used to deal with behavioral issues of editors interacting with other editors on talk pages. TonyBallioni (talk) 21:08, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Support The offenses are different in type and in scale. Remedies tailored to each party's behavior make sense. The incivility is acknowledged. A warning is enough. The faux BLP claim - over a course of years and as yet unrecanted - by an editor who routinely dismisses his own obvious COI, requires stronger measures. (And if the behavior continues, still stronger ones ought be on the horizon.) David in DC (talk) 19:29, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• oppose I say there was one "faux BLP claim" in 2013 which I recanted. No diffs provided for supposed others. The idea of a penalty for "faux BLP" is an new notion with no prior discussions, policies or warnings before 2016. Rjensen (talk) 20:12, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per Vanamonde93 (here and above) and David in DC. An IBan would fix civility issues, but would do nothing to curb Rjensen's behavior regarding comments made by editors other than Maunus. Maunus has admitted his failings and even offered to apologize. Rjensen, on the other hand, is still defensive and steadfast in his misunderstanding and misapplication of BLP (yes, I've read this entire section including diffs), behavior which has far wider implications for the project than some minor incivility.--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 21:33, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. This is by far the most sensible solution. IBans often exacerbate situations and create even more ill-will. It seems clear that RJensen is abusing talk-page removals in distinct violation of WP:TPO. I don't personally think Maunus is being uncivil but an encouragement to stay civil couldn't hurt I suppose. Softlavender (talk) 23:27, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I-Ban: Rjensen/Hijiri88

• Proposal User:Beyond My Ken above recommended that I propose as a separate motion an interaction ban between rjensen and Hijiri88. So I amn doing so, based on his egregious misbehavior at https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Hijiri88&diff=prev&oldid=744883814 It came about when User:Imboredsenseless visited that personal talk page. Neither one mentioned a grievance against me but instead discussed how best to attack me for the political viewpoints I allegedly displayed on an entirely different website Conservapedia. (Those supposed viewpoints are false--I never held them.) User:Imboredsenseless made really nasty edits against me based entirely on knowing my real name. Hijiri88 incited him and cooperated with him. Hijiri88 knows that Outing an anonymous editor is a serious violation--it's what protects anonymous editors and makes the system fair. So he made sure there was no outing before proceeding to ridicule me and also promised to stalk me. Hijiri88 said: Yes, I very quickly found that page, and I'm also fairly certain they are the same person. If there is in fact someone actively editing Wikipedia who is also an admin on a competing Wiki whose whole reason for being essentially boils down "Wikipedia is biased and is operated by liberal scum" then I intend to monitor their edits closely from now on. I erased his entire interaction with User:Imboredsenseless and he restored his own statements. He refuses to admit he violated wp:NPA and has promised to stalk me. So I propose a one-year interaction ban between Hijiri88 and rjensen. Rjensen (talk) 17:49, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

*Weak support. I don't like iBans but OK. As for the talk page removals--I think there is broad agreement here that Rjensen's invocations of BLP are at least problematic. If that is the case, it is worth its own investigation. Preventing them from removing talk page comments is OK, I suppose, but it strikes me as a bit lame if there are indeed bigger problems. But maybe it's a good idea if they simply ask an admin or someone else to look at the offending comment and ask them to remove it if indeed BLP or NPA is violated. It would also be good if no one really followed anyone else's comments very closely, but I suspect some people are frequently bored. Drmies (talk) 18:46, 12 December 2016 (UTC) I struck this because it should have been in the section above this one. Mea culpa. This one, I do not support. Drmies (talk) 02:42, 13 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose What's even the point? I have not interacted with Rjensen before, except once (briefly) last September and once (even more briefly) this October. I only got involved in this thread because it was on ANI and I had something to contribute. This "egregious misbehavior" consists of my doing him a favour by removing a personal attack against him by another user on my talk page, but refusing to accept his bogus argument that it is a BLP violation. Since I have barely interacted with Rjensen before, an IBAN wouldn't be much of an imposition for me, but why he is proposing this makes his good faith questionable. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 21:15, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose this thread has gotten silly. I don't see the purpose of this I-ban. If you all both don't want to interact with the other, then don't, but I also don't see a reason to formalize that as a sanction. TonyBallioni (talk) 20:38, 13 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Ban them all, and let the Wiki-god sort them out

• Probably unfair to someone, but no other proposal seems to have sufficient support; alternatively, one of the three main actors here could take the bull by the horns and file a request for Arbitration. Certainly the community doesn't seem to be able to unknot this one, and electrons are dying like flies. I think the structure of an ArbCom case would help. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:28, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If Hijiri88 agrees we'll both shut up here. Rjensen (talk) 08:54, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• BMK, your proposal received almost no support, but that is not the case for the rest. Arthur Rubin's modified IBAN proposal has received more support, and there is near unanimous support for Vanamonde's proposal. I want nothing more to do with Rjensen, and I am sure he wants nothing more to do with me, so that IBAN proposal is redundant. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:12, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• You are more or less correct in your assessment of the response to the various proposals, but almost no admin is going to close on the basis of the response to Vanamonde's proposal because it has been so paltry. In my experience it takes more than a handful of !votes to generate warnings and bans, especially for an issue as complex as this one. So for all intents and purposes, none of the proposals, in my view, would be acceptable to a closing admin, hence my suggestion to take it to ArbCom, which exists to deal with complex issues such as this which involve, as Maunus describes in his opening, potentially serious breaches of policy. Beyond My Ken (talk) 14:15, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Well, ArbCom won't accept a case just because some random editors didn't bother reading through the single ANI thread that has been opened so far (although quite a few actually did read it). The actual problem is cut-and-dry, as everyone who has read through it except one has already noted, and doesn't merit an Arbitration case. If it comes to ANI again, I'll be sure to post everything I've got to say in my first post so I don't have to keep responding to what looks like a deliberate filibustering on the part of one of the two main parties to this thread. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 21:46, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it all depends on how interested you are in seeing a resolution come about. I disagree with you about the response to Vanamonde's proposal (4 supports and 1 oppose), in that I don't believe it's sufficient for an admin to close this on that basis, and the other proposals are going nowhere, so it's more than likely that this will be closed (eventually) as "no consensus". If you, or any of the other main actors, are interested in seeing it resolved, I think ArbCom is the only way to go, and --despite your statement -- they will indeed look at this thread and determine that the community couldn't resolve the problem, which is obvious on its face (or why else are there all these words and all these proposals?). Of course, if neither you nor Rjensen nor Maunus is really interested in resolving the perceived problem(s), then, sure, don't take it to ArbCom, but I doubt anybody else will. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:39, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Let's be clear: I don't think this thread should be closed without a proper result, but I really don't think the one, relatively minor, problem that remains to be resolved (the future talk page blankings that will likely take place given that Rjensen doesn't accept that he did anything wrong) is worth all the red tape of an ArbCom case one way or the other. I've been trying to get back to building an encyclopedia for like a week, and the only reason I keep coming back here is that I don't want to see the untruths about me (which are completely irrelevant to the current case as they relate to something that took place two months ago). I think Rjensen and Maunus are both good content producers and this thread has already drained far too much of their time, and I know I'm a good content producer and this thread has already drained too much of my time, so if it's a choice between letting the thread get archived without a close (or closed without a definitive result) and letting it drag out even longer than it already has by elevating it to Arbitration, I think that the latter option would be the worse option for everyone involved. I really don't care all that much that Rjensen blanked a section of my talk page two months ago, and even if he was actively threatening to do the same thing again just to get a rise out of me I still would not think it was worth all the energy I've already wasted on it, much less any future effort that would be necessary to take it to ArbCom. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 04:00, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Support the idea of taking it to ArbCom, but not of banning all those involved, unless the other proposals above get more attention than they have to date, because there does seem to be some basis for thinking that the matters raised here are sufficiently important to be addressed in some way. John Carter (talk) 20:56, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, I thought John Carter was supposed to stop following Hijiri around ... ? Maybe an Arb case should be opened for that ... Curly "the jerk" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 21:44, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. the problem is one person who invents fake rules. Hijiri88 says ‘’ you [Rjensen] have abused BLP by constantly citing it in cases where it doesn't apply.’’ Hijiri88 since December 5 has invented his own rules that I supposedly violated or 'abused'. He has failed in his 12,000 words here to find these rules anywhere in Wikipedia – not in the rules, the guidelines, the essays or the official decisions by Wiki bodies like ArbCom or this page. His fake 'rules' contradict the actual written rules at BLP. For example, he says that BLP does not apply to editors' talk pages, but WP:BLP states: “BLP applies to all material about living persons anywhere on Wikipedia, including talk pages, edit summaries, user pages, images, categories, lists, article titles and drafts.” Rjensen (talk) 21:53, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Rjensen: You may well be right, or you might be wrong. I don't know. What I think I do know is that Hijiri88 only became involved in the discussion here after it was first posted here (correct me if I'm wrong, of course), and that I don't think I've seen ArbCom take on a case for months now. If that is true, particularly if there is no reason to think it will change much in the near future, they might be in a position to spend more time and effort on the matter than some of the more or less random volunteers here (like me), given that they were elected to do that and they don't seem to have done much by way of casework in months now.That could, of course, qualify as demeaning ArbCom, which might make me eligible for some sort of sanction myself, but, hey, what the hell. John Carter (talk) 22:05, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

On further review, from some of the earlier comments above, it seems that Rjensen may well have been applying BLP to comments about himself in a variety of spaces, including userspace. Rjensen has also on his user page publicly announced his identity, and it is, perhaps, not unreasonable to think that on that basis WP:BLP might apply, particularly the statement in the lede of that page to the effect that all material "that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion." There has been, so far as I know, only one real ArbCom precedent in history, regarding The Atlantic, which might relate to application of BLP toward publicly known editors, and as I remember the decision in that case didn't address the matter at all. Having some sort of action which might be able to clarify how to apply BLP to editors whose identities are public knowledge would probably be helpful. John Carter (talk) 00:33, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Just a reminder that WP:BLP does not say that all material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced should be removed, but that "contentious" unsourced or poorly sourced material should be removed. Of course "contentious" is in the eye of the beholder. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:52, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for having caught my mistake in the cut and paste there. John Carter (talk) 01:01, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Keep in mind we have some equally strong related rules: WP:LIBEL states This page in a nutshell: Delete libelous material when it has been identified. It is the responsibility of all contributors to ensure that material posted on Wikipedia is not defamatory. It is Wikipedia policy to delete libelous material when it has been identified. for its definitions that page refers repeatedly to Defamation (= "the communication of a false statement that harms the reputation of an individual person...") Rjensen (talk) 01:50, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

But, of course, in the United States, a public figure must prove intent as part of libel, so mere negative material is not ipso facto libelous in that case. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:54, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"intent" regarding a public official applies when the target sues in federal or state court. But of course that is not part of the Wikipedia rule.Rjensen (talk) 02:24, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Since Wikipedia used a legally-defined word, then the US legal standards apply, since Wikipedia is located in the US. If it wouldn't pass muster in a court as libel, then it cannot be libel as far as Wikipedia is concerned.

I think you would be better off editing the encyclopedia in your professional capacity as a historian, and be less concerned about yourself as a subject, since that seems to be what has raised the ruckus. If you're not notable, then let's delete the article about you, if you are notable, then the same standards apply to you as to anyone else. There's no special treatment for a BLP subject who happens to be a Wikipedia editor. If there's a need to remove information about yourself, you're better off asking another editor to take a look at it rather than deleting it yourself, since you obviously have a serious COI regarding yourself. If the material violates a Wikipedia policy -- any Wikipedia policy, then it will be removed -- but you shouldn't be the one making that decision. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:29, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

well yes I'll be doing that. Rjensen (talk) 05:41, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It is not the case that since Wikipedia is located in the US, then only US laws and standards apply. Foreign editors can be challenged under the laws of their own country. The High Court of Australia ruled in the case of Dow Jones v Gutnick (2002) that Internet-published foreign publications that defamed an Australian in their Australian reputation could be held accountable under Australian defamation law. Similar court rulings have been handed down in many other jurisdictions including England, Scotland, France, Canada and Italy. This is why our WP:LIBEL policy is by design broader than that of US libel law, just as our WP:COPYVIO policy goes beyond what is required by copyright law. Defamatory material must be removed, and intent doesn't matter. Hawkeye7 (talk) 23:08, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Hawkeye7: Could you clarify that your comment is about the general applicapility of WP:LIBEL and is not related to this specific incident? The defamed individual in this case is American, not Australian, so that Australian ruling does not apply, and the defamatory material in question is "this user states on their user page that they are this real-world person, who is primarily known for his revisionist view of discrimination against Irish-Americans, and so his edits that touch on the subject of ethnic relations may be biased", whose "defamatory" nature is questionable to begin with (it is an off-topic personal attack and merits removal anyway, but WP:LIBEL doesn't apply). Your comment, in light of the comments immediately preceding it, is fine as a clarification/correction of the slightly off-topic and inaccurate claims made therein. But the last sentence in particular might serve to muddy the waters if this ever comes up again. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:30, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sure. I only intended it at a clarification/correction. To clarify: As a general statement, unrelated to this case, our rules do apply, and Americans must conform like everyone else. I would think that the relevant policy in this case is not WP:LIBEL but WP:BLPCOI. Hawkeye7 (talk) 02:44, 16 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I want to complain about administrator Fram. He don't like the way I'm editing Wikipedia, and over the last weeks we had many discussions about it. However, during his conversations it's for him a common use to say his bad opinion about me or my work like it is a fact. On 21 and 22 November I gave him some warnings at his talk page. However he continues behaving in this way, and can give you loads of more examples. Most recent example, today on my talk page he said that everything I said was all a load of crap, while it was not at all. I think this is not the appropriate way of acting as an administratot and makes life on Wikipedia hard. Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 10:42, 6 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Good, I was thinking about starting a section about the many, many problems with the editing by Sander v. Ginkel, this saves me the trouble. I'll add a subsection, just give me some time to collect the major problems. Fram (talk) 10:46, 6 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As Sander v. Ginkel hasn't provided any diffs or links, let me help: [34]. As can be seen, "he said that everything I said was all a load of crap" is not true. I said it about three specific statements he made about my edits: "your claim that "important info was not copied", "you didn't copy all the information", "I had to put the information back manualy" was all a load of crap". The "important info I didn't copy" was a disclaimer which was already in the article, and an incorrect link. Fram (talk) 11:33, 6 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The fact is you didn't copy anything and by stating it I don't think what I said was all a load of crap. You might have your reasons to say that some things are wrong, but my problem is that your language is not how it should be. And that is my main issue. Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 12:54, 6 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't copy anything? No, I substituted it all, and then removed the superfluous or wrong bits. You then repeatedly reinserted errors I had corrected or removed, and started then claiming that I hadn't copied "important information", but you haven't shown any example of "important information" you have reinserted. Here you readd a date disclaimer which was already present for all teams anyway (so it is superfluous), and readd an incorrect link to a 2012 page for this 2011 article. You may not like my language, but perhaps it is time you start considering why people get fed up with you. Fram (talk) 13:05, 6 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

We can discuss about that, but it doesn't rectify the way you're always talking. And it's not a new thing, you've always talked this way and I've seen you're not only talking this way to me. Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 13:19, 6 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User:Sander v. Ginkel

These are some of the problems from the last few weeks. Sander v. Ginkel is a very prolific editor, creating many articles in a semi-automated way through the use of templates. While most of the articles are about notable subjects (though often borderline notable ones), his way of editing has many issues, and he seems to be unwilling to change his approach.

• Copyright violation: 2020 Summer Olympics opening ceremony[35] (revision deleted).

• SvG short reply: I shouldn't have done that. Sorry for that.

• Creating Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2016 Copa Sudamericana Finals, and immediately after its "Snow Keep" closure starting Talk:2016 Copa Sudamericana#Merge discussion (2016), which also heads for a snow close against the proposal

• SvG short reply: At the AfD nobody replied to my reason, for that I started the merge discussion. (you closed it as "Snow Keep" yourself before I could reply)

• Proxy editing and edit warring on my user talk page: he thought it a good idea to repeatedly readd a comment from a Kumioko sock to my user talk page[36][37]

• SvG short reply: I didn't know it was a sock. I've said sorry for that, and again, sorry for that

• Creation of BLPs with a false source. Kristi Hausenberg, Evelin Harjakas, Berle Brant, Anželika Ahmetšina, ... were created with a link to an Estonian online sports encyclopedia. None of these had an entry for these persons. An article like Nike Winter first had two sources[38][39], both without any mention of her. A page like Mariann Mortensen Kvistnes has a similar problematic history with repeated additions of sources which don't mention her or don't worked. These problems have also been commented on by User:Manxruler and User:The Banner.

• SvG short reply: Yes that was my fault which I also didn't notice myself. As I thought they had a page there. This was one of the main faults where it started together with the Norwegian footballers.

• Using Wikipedia as a source. For example with Ahmed Badr, he copied the wrong date of birth from another page, without actually checking the sources.

• SvG short reply: Like we discussed, Ahmed Badr was never on Wikipedia. I added him with an error in the dob and so also an error in the page.

• These sourcing problems continued after the above had been pointed out, pages like Maria Averina and Diana Klimova had two sources, one of which failed already at the time the article was created. All this shows that Sander v. Ginkel creates BLPs with sources to comply with the unsourced BLP requirements, but without even checking whether the sources exist, are about the subject, and support the contents. His BLP creations are not trustworthy at all.

• SvG short reply: It was a typo I made in the reference (with these many numbers), I explained it to you. Nothing wrong with the content on the page.

• His rapid-fire templated creations lead to repeated problems, like 11 male water plo players in a row who competed in a women's championship, or a whole bunch of templates where the "edit" link lead to the wrong template as he had forgotten to change that.

• SvG short reply: I didn't notice the (tiny) women's/men's link in pages I created. I changed it. I saw the other template errorsmyself, but was not finished with fixing them before you noticed me.

• 2015 Women's LEN Super Cup: the article he created had a list of competitors, but no information on when the cup was played, or where, or even who won. I tried to explain the problem with this, and many other problems with his editing, at User talk:Sander.v.Ginkel/Fram#Summary, but to no avail

• SvG short reply: Page meets notability. When you think it wrong the page should be moved to 2015 Women's LEN Super Cup squads.

• Too many errors in articles. At User talk:Sander.v.Ginkel#Fram, I noted that at least half the recent creations he had made then, had either a wrong date of birth or one contradicted in reliable sources. When questioned about where he got his data from (something I had had to do numerous times before as well), it turned out that the pages were based on revolvy.com, which is ... a Wikipedia mirror. His talk page from the last few weeks contains numerous other examples.

• SvG short reply: when discussion this issue we saw that most of the players had different date of births in different sources. The 5 I created with the data I exported in 2015 via a site, of which I didn't know at the time it was a mirror website, were changed immediately.

• Wrong links. User talk:Sander.v.Ginkel#Nomination for deletion of Template:GPC2011riders somehow got sidetracked in a discussion of his addition of links. He simply adds links to names, and then waits for a disambiguation bot to indicate the wrong ones, which he then corrects. Minor problem with this: links which don't point to disambiguation pages, but to wrong subjects, never get noticed by him. For example, 2016–17 LEN Champions League squads links to Manuel Cardoso, Sérgio Marques, Pedro Sousa, Aleksandar Ignjatović, ... Other players are created as "former water polo players" despite being listed on the 2016-2017 sqauds (Rui Santos, Dragan Drasković).

• SvG short reply: I resolved the disamb links hours before you listed them here. Didn't know the issue of the former water polo players, but changed them. See also our most recent discussion (in good harmony :D )on my talk page about this.

• My comment was not about the disambig links, please read what I wrote. My comment is about you inserting links blindly, without checking them, and trusting disambig bot to tell you the wrong ones. While these indeed need correcting (which you did), these are only part of the problem, and in fact the more minor aspect of it. People following links to disambiguation pages will only be confused or will need to follow a second link; but with the links to the wrong person, they may well leave with the idea that footballer X is the same as water polo player Y, or whichever combination you end up with. I specifically listed a number of examples from that page which pointed to the wrong person, but you don't seem to have checked these at all. There are other examples in the same article, like the link to Marko Petković, Filip Janković or Balazs Szabo. Fram (talk) 21:26, 6 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Basically, he creates articles from some template that allows him to rapidly create numerous nearly identical articles, without bothering to check if e.g. the source provided even mentions the subject, or whether we don't yet have an article about the subject, or whether the information (often taken from Wikipedia itself or from other sites which don't get mentioned in the article) is correct, and so on. And then he waits for other people or bots to find his errors. Pleas to slow down and create decent basic stubs, with the right sources and verified information, are ignored. Problems and errors get minimized.

Any help in guiding him to become a trustworthy, truly productive editor (one who produces quality stubs, not simply quantity) is more than welcome. Fram (talk) 11:27, 6 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I do not have very much to add after the edit by Fram. Too often Sander makes mistakes, like giving sources that do not contain the subject or producing templates for squads years ago while pretending they are current squads. An often heard comment of him is At the time I created them I didn't know it had these errors. In my opinion, it shows that he values high volumes of low quality production over quality production while expecting other to solve his mistakes and inaccuracies. And that is in general the issue with Sander.van.Ginkel. The Banner talk 12:02, 6 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I defended myself already against the issues Fram said above, so I'm not going to repeat it all here. I´m a hardworking editor and yes, I do make mistakes. As I make many edits and create many pages I may even make many errots. As Fram screened all of my pages he indicates the mistakes. But as I´ve showed, I'm always there to fix my erros. You say to me that I'm unwilling to change his approach, and yes again, that is your opinion listed as a fact. Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 13:10, 6 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Can you indicate wheer you defended yourself, as I don't see it. You haven't addressed e.g. the copyvio and so on. As for the fact that you are unwilling to change your approach, you have yet again, after this discussion has started, created a BLP with an incorrect source. Alexey Kamanin has as single source [40] which says "an error occurred while processing this directive. Search Results: Found 0 hits that match your search." Is it in this case an easy fix? Yes, the source you need is [41]. Is it normal that this happens once again and that you don't check this yourself? No, that is not normal. That's an unwillingness to change your appraoch evidenced right here, right now. Fram (talk) 13:17, 6 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I added in short my reason for it. Sorry for putting it in your text, but that was most practitcal. Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 16:53, 6 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sander v. Ginkel, why did you turn this subsection into a separate section[42]? The two discussions clearly belong together. In general, don't edit posts about you. Fram (talk) 13:09, 6 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Even if I make mistakes, the things you're saying don't allow you to behave as I'm complaining about. To complain about me it's better to start a seperate section. Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 13:13, 6 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

No it makes perfect sense to leave this altogether since the gist of the issue is whether or not Fram's concerns are real. SmartSE (talk) 13:55, 6 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

To paraphrase what I said at User_talk:Sander.v.Ginkel#Fram - I agree with Fram that some of Sander.v.Ginkel's edits are problematic and it's increasingly clear that he is unwilling to change, or are not taking the time to check articles he creates. He said in the section linked that he had taken account of Fram's advice, but two random articles I picked both contained BLP problems. Benedicte Hubbel continues to have an unsourced DOB, even after this was pointed out (c/f: "I'm always there to fix my erros [sic]" above). He needs to slow down and concentrate on quality rather than quantity.

I actually first came across Sander when he was unblanking courtesy blanked AFDs e.g., with no consideration for the reasons these were blanked in the first place. That led me to notice his WP:FAKEARTICLE userpage, which after I pointed out the problems, this was the only change made. If that was a new user's userpage it'd be deleted on sight per U5. SmartSE (talk) 13:55, 6 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I see that he's a new page reviewer - in fact he's been granted that right twice for some reason. Given the number of problems mentioned on his talk page, going back a long way before the current incidents, I don't think he's qualified to review new pages. Doug Weller talk 14:50, 6 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not that active with reviewing pages. Sometimes when I don't know what to do I check a few pages and add only obvouis banners. I don't know if you can check it somwhere but had never problems with that. Regarding to the issues listed by Fram you could better take my Autopatrolled rights away so the pages will be checked by more users. Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 15:08, 6 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

What Fram has already written pretty much covers the issues. I first came across Sander.v.Ginkel when he created a large number of articles on Norwegian footballers. What these articles had in common was that they included a reference, but that that reference did not mention the person in question at all. In effect, he created a large number of unreferenced BLPs. One example already mentioned above is Mariann Mortensen Kvistnes, which has recently had references added. Others, like Kari Nielsen and Bjørg Storhaug have also had some actual references added since creation. By my count the Norwegian footballer articles created by Sander.v.Ginkel that are still unreferenced BLPs masquerading as BLPs with references are: Trude Haugland, Torill Hoch-Nielsen, Sissel Grude, Turid Storhaug, Tone Opseth, Hege Ludvigsen, Lisbeth Bakken, Åse Iren Steine, Katrine Nysveen, Monica Enlid, and Elin Krokan. This mass creation of articles with at best no regard for sourcing, has to stop. Manxruler (talk) 15:42, 6 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It's pretty damning for someone who has a Master's degree to be so lax in source checking. Doubling damning when unsourced BLPs are being created. I'd say a restriction that an article must be created in draft space and be checked before it is released into article space is warranted. Failing that, an article creation ban for 6 months. Blackmane (talk) 22:54, 6 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It must also be said that I originally only looked at the Norwegian football BLPs he created. Looking into it more now, I see exactly the same pattern with many other articles, for example Danish footballers like Kirsten Fabrin and Italian footballers like Florinda Ciardi. That's just a very small sample, listing them all would take too much space here. This sort of mass creation of unreferenced BLPs pretending to have references is very, very problematic. Further, I can't see that Sander.v.Ginkel has been willing to admit that a large percentage of his work (really his quantity-oriented, semi-automated approach to editing) has serious problems. Manxruler (talk) 04:55, 7 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

At the very least, SvG needs to stop using whatever template they're using to create BLP's, whether it be voluntary or community sanctioned. Blackmane (talk) 06:16, 7 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• As a first step, I have removed SvG's autopatrolled rights. BethNaught (talk) 09:24, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• As a next step, I have warned the user to stop creating new articles. Black Kite (talk) 10:45, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal

As others are already moving forward with !voting on my suggestion, I've taken the liberty of separating this section out and framing it formally. Blackmane (talk) 22:49, 7 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sander.v.Ginkel is hereby restricted from creating articles directly in article space. For a period of no less than six months, Sander.v.Ginkel may only create appropriately sourced articles in draft space. They must approach an outside reviewer, not necessarily an admin, to review the accuracy of the sourcing before they may move the article to article space. This restriction may be appealed after the 6 month period has lapsed.

• Support Blackmane's first solution as the kindest way out of this mess. Miniapolis 23:31, 6 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Support - I have seen this kind of mass article creation before. It becomes a complete mess and some of the subjects were notable, but no effort was put into making a quality page. Quality should always trump quantity; I feel that should go without saying. A draft space restriction will assure this behavior is corrected, and maybe give him time to improve his past work.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 00:43, 7 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose - The proposal is severe and should only be considered after multiple polite attempts by a single editor to resolve it are proffered (e.g. "Hey buddy! There's a slight issue with XYZ, could you please do ABC?" not "You're doing a terrible job and everyone thinks you're incompetent."), or after a community warning. I say polite attempts, because simply yelling at someone is never likely to produce a meaningful change and cannot reasonably be counted as a GF attempt at resolution. (For the record, I'm not accusing anyone of doing that in this case, nor am I saying it did not occur, I just note this as a general point of good guidance for the future.) LavaBaron (talk) 03:59, 7 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • But multiple polite attempts by multiple editors have already been made (in addition to my attempts), making the premisse of your oppose invalid. Basing an oppose on something that should happen but where you don't know if it has happened here or not is faulty logic. Fram (talk) 07:29, 7 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Then the next level is a formal warning by the community enacted by consensus, in my opinion. It can sometimes be unclear to an editor if individual warnings represent the escalation of an edit dispute or an actual caution of restraint regarding some action. A formal, community warning removes that ambiguity. LavaBaron (talk) 10:18, 7 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You're funny. "Oppose, you need to do A or B first!" "A was already done". "You need to do B first!". Right... Fram (talk) 10:24, 7 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thought I'd point out the irony that I based my restriction proposal on the same restriction that was levied on LavaBaron not too long ago. Blackmane (talk) 22:49, 7 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose - Per LavaBaron, too drastic, at least at this stage. Not least, I think that SvG should be given time to reconsider his approach and put in place better quality assurance protocols. It is clear that a subset of his articles have issues, but there's no measure, that I have seen, as to whether the problem is endemic or on the margins. SvG in my experience is very open to correcting issues when they're brought to his attention, and I value his work, even with its faults. My immediate suggestion is that, as his creations appear to be series of bulk creations each series-instance based on a common set of sources, he should publish on his user pages a logging system each time he releases a new series, describing the series - "Spanish Water Polo Players" - specifying the sources, and listing the created articles: this sort of transparency would facilitate better oversight from the community. QA protocols should include, mainly, that there is at least one RS for the series and, perhaps, that more consideration is given to the temporal aspects - are his subjects still members of teams, or past-members. The community can then provide any necessary feedback at the series level. (I grant that, as I write, it becomes clear that this could be done by way of publishing first to draft and migrating to mainspace once a check has been done: I'm minded right now to give SvG the benefit of the doubt with the caveat that the community does not have infinite patience.) --Tagishsimon (talk) 04:50, 7 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Support, as multiple attempts to discuss this with Sander v. Ginkel already happened, and a lot of advice was given by different people, but the problems persist. His latest creation is the BLP Tineke de Nooij, which has, despite only having three sentences, a false claim in one of them. "She is seen as the first Dutch discjockey" is not true at all (she started as a DJ in 1962, but Radio Veronica was active since 1960), and obviously not in the source given (which has a wrong title as well). Fram (talk) 07:29, 7 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Support- At the very least SvG needs to stop with the semi-automated creation of articles, since these are clearly riddled with inaccuracies and unverifiable statements. Reyk _YO! 08:09, 7 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Serveral of my articles had unverifiable content. I think a better solution is (I) needs to stop with the semi-automated creation of articles with inaccuracies and unverifiable statements. Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 12:25, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Support - Its actually a very light restriction - it in no way restricts SvG from working in areas they are interested in, nor does it restrict them from productive contributions. All it does is restrict them from using a method of editing that they clearly cannot use without causing significant errors. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:02, 7 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• If you say support for craeting stubs, you are saying actually it would be good to delete all my previous articles. If (significant) errors are raised, I solve them. Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 12:25, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Support what Only in death said. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:21, 7 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Support - The sheer number of these "articles" is astounding Exemplo347 (talk) 21:48, 7 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note - He's continuing to create a vast number of these questionable articles. The fact that his behaviour is being questioned has not stopped him from spewing out these automated things - I'd hate to be the one to have to go through each one and see if the subject meets notability guidelines! It would surely make sense to block him from creating new articles temporarily while this discussion takes place. Exemplo347 (talk) 23:28, 7 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Support. The articles are still being churned out even as this discussion goes on (the most recent batch having this as the sole source, which isn't remotely acceptable); the alternative to this proposal isn't "no action", it's a site ban. ‑ Iridescent 22:57, 7 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Support, these stubs need review before being moved to the mainspace, period. Also, he should stop creating articles using bots or semi-automated tools, that's not a serious way to build an encyclopedia. Cavarrone 23:58, 7 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per Iridescent and Only in death. This is beginning to become a CIR issue.--Cameron₁₁₅₉₈ ^(Talk) 00:31, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per reasons I've listed in the discussion above and per Iridescent. Manxruler (talk) 03:26, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Support But I would like to see the templates included in the restriction also. The Banner talk 10:37, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose and start talking.

If I summarize the main issue raised by Fram is: articles are created without a good or false source (where the date of birth for instance is not listed). Of course we should all say, stop doing that. And it’s easy to say that, as I see above. However is the solution to don’t allow him to create stubs? Well I did the last hours some research into him and I would strongly say No. An other issue is, is that not all the info is referenced. After screening some articles where Sander.v.Ginkel added reference, like the football players above, all the info that was originally in the article was not wrong.

I’ve seen he created in the last year >14,000 articles (!). I think no one else in the world could say that. I see Sander.v.Ginkel always helps when issues are raised. All issues raised above have been fixed. I see for instance he made from August-October ~2500 articles about weightlifers that looks as great and valuable stubs. I see all the weightlifers at previous world championships are created, all medalists at all world championships have been created and also medalists at other competitions. I see he created 1000s of Olympic participants. I must say, they look better as an average Olympic stub.

To me, this shows Sander.v.Ginkel is a hardworking editor, and I don’t think the solution is restricting him from making stubs. The solution is talk with him and making togheter some rules for his stubs. It would be such a shame to see him leaving for instance. Stubs are valuable!

Wikipedia always say don’t bite the newcomers, but I would also say don’t bite Wikipedian editors at all. I see that since the last few weeks Fram is raising many issues. However, not all, but most of this issues are not major and/or errors in his ‘template’ as Fram it calls, and were changed by the creator. It appears that Fram is looking/screening for issues in the articles the pages of Sander.v.Ginkel. His approach to Sander.v.Ginkel is always negative and, like the editor wrote above, not kind at all. He names the issue and states every time something like, ‘everything you’re doing is wrong and is all crap’. This is really biting an editor and only trying to make is life hard. Fram is not willing to help, but only willing to see him leavin. I think if he would have start a proper and kind discussion (as an administrator should do) this wouldn’t all have happened!

I see people are listing some 10s of articles about with issues, while he created in that time >1500 articles(!). If a bot on Wikipedia is making a mistake every 1000 edits, the solution is not to abandon the bot, but to stop the bot temporaty solve the problem and let the bot continue doing his work. And I think, this is what we should do. Maybe only Fram could state he tried to do this, but he didn't do it the right way. If you just state stop doing this is not talking. (If you want that someone stops smoking don't say stop smoking but give him a flyer how to stop or give him the address of a clinic.)

I see the main issues in articles of Sander.v.Ginkel is creating articles (sometimes) without good references. As everybody would state, this really has to stop!! I thinks we should talk with him and make some rules. I think we should say that the reference of his articles must always list (at least) the date of birth and the fact why the person is notable. I think if he would do so, all main issues listed above are covered.

MFriedman (talk) 11:31, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A few errors in your statement. If we listed a few 10s in the last 1500 articles, then you don't have an error every 1000 edits but every 50 or so. And of course, we didn't list every article with problems, just some examples. You also claim that "I see Sander.v.Ginkel always helps when issues are raised. All issues raised above have been fixed." I have raised the link problems with 2016–17 LEN Champions League squads thrice now (once on his talk page, two times here), he has replied to this, but he hasn't fixed these problems at all. Many of the main problems (e.g. with his sourcing) simply continue. Fram (talk) 12:54, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A few errors in your statement. What are the link problems with 2016–17 LEN Champions League squads? When you placed this on 21:26, 6 December 2016 (UTC) you said there were disamb links while these were repaired by me already on 09:33, 6 December 2016‎. And secondly you are naming here not only just some examples, you are naming the articles or group of articles with the main problems as discussed on my talk page. Or there must be main problems you never mentioned here or on my talk page. Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 19:28, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, we are now rapidly approaching WP:CIR land. I have now thrice explained to you that it's not about links to disambiguation pages, but about links to the wrong targets which are not disambiguation pages but simply articles, and thus don't get flagged by a disambiguation bot. On your talk page: "You add links and just hope that they are the correct ones? Really? And you then only correct those that get flagged by disambig bot, and don't bother to check the others? Fram (talk) 09:43, 6 December 2016 (UTC)". And then in this very discussion: "Minor problem with this: links which don't point to disambiguation pages, but to wrong subjects, never get noticed by him. For example, 2016–17 LEN Champions League squads links to Manuel Cardoso, Sérgio Marques, Pedro Sousa, Aleksandar Ignjatović, ..." and "My comment was not about the disambig links, please read what I wrote. [...] with the links to the wrong person, they may well leave with the idea that footballer X is the same as water polo player Y, or whichever combination you end up with. I specifically listed a number of examples from that page which pointed to the wrong person, but you don't seem to have checked these at all. There are other examples in the same article, like the link to Marko Petković, Filip Janković or Balazs Szabo. Fram (talk) 21:26, 6 December 2016 (UTC) " So I have given you by now 7 examples of links on that page which don't go to a disambiguation page, but link to the wrong person. There probably are more such links on that page alone, and many more on other squad pages you created. Fram (talk) 07:57, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Reply SvG I just see there is a proposal about me going on. Thanks for noticing me, as I didn't know this was going on. I think it's not fair restricting me after having creating stubs for over years. I do like the reply of MFriedman. I'm open to talk to anyone and solving this issue. Many of the sport articles start with a stub. Medal templates, are added, major results are added and over the time they become a larger and larger article. Of the >18.000 I created the only article that was deleted, was recently, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sam Henderson (weightlifter) (2nd nomination), and was more a GNG issue than a N:SPORTS issue. I know I made mistakes. And yes I learned from them, and I'm willing to learn from them to create better stubs. I will never ever created articles with for instance only the name of the athlete or to a link that only had the information in the past. I thinks after having serverd for Wikipedia for years it's not fair to say at one day stop creating all of them without having had a proper warning. Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 12:25, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Note canvassing here and here. Fram (talk) 12:54, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Questions Why a six-month restriction? Only if Blackmane is going to review each and every draft (seeing as they suggested the time-frame). However, Blackmane only seems to edit on this noticeboard judging by their last 150 or so contributions, so I'm guessing they'll back away from helping almost as quickly as it was proposed. Which leaves the question of who is actually going to spend their time looking at all the draft-space creations? "They must approach an outside reviewer, not necessarily an admin" - Who exactly? From looking at SVG's talkpage, he's replied to each and every concern. Are we going to bring each editor who creates stubs not up to the community's standards here too? You should see some of the utter dross that gets through in other areas. Lugnuts ^{Precious bodily fluids} 13:28, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• I think Fram (talk · contribs) can review them, because he is already screening all of my articles. Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 14:40, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If you think that you can bring a case for how I choose to spend my time, then feel free. Actually, if you probably go back through the last thousand, maybe even two thousand, or so of my contribs, most of them are likely here. If you have a problem with how I choose to spend my very limited time, then my talk page is that away. If you think there's a history of any shit you can make stick, then feel free to raise a case against me. Otherwise, you know where you can stick your snark.

Now back to the matter at hand. As I have phrased it, seeking "an outside reviewer" may mean anyone. If SvG chooses to approach me then I will certainly assist as best as I can. Blackmane (talk) 13:11, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thought as much. Another one who throws their weight around, but can't help with the solution they come up with. Why would I need to "raise a case against you"? Why bring that up at all? Unless... Lugnuts ^{Precious bodily fluids} 13:40, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• I just started creating in the draft space, please see these drafts that could be reviewed. Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 14:40, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• • Well, since you want me to review them... I notice that, despite all claims of improvements, listening to criticism, changes, and whatnot, you still make the very same basic error. Draft:Willi Kirschner has one source, [43], which gives no results. How bloody hard is it to use a reference to create an article, and to copy-paste that URL? If your method of creating articles through templates and programs makes this impossible or way too hard, then stop using that method. If you can't even make that effort at a time you know your edits are being scrutinized and possible sanctions or remedies are being discussed... Fram (talk) 14:50, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose Note I was already aware of this thread before Sanders alerted WIR.. I agree with Fram on a lot of the articles and issues. I personally dislike short sportspeople stubs as they turn wikipedia into a database and nobody expands them in years, but I respect the outlook of people like Lugnuts and Sanders in wanting to make wikipedia a comprehensive resource. I think we can agree though that a lot of the subjects are worthy of coverage. The best thing for those I think would be careful bot preperation and use it to produce fleshier articles upon creation which are accurate. Banning Sander from creation isn't the way to go, and I think there's a way his abilities could be used to produce something a lot more productive (which Fram would be happier with) if he sacrifices quantity in places for better quality and accuracy. What I would suggest is start discussing a way to produce a bot or semi-automated tool which ransacks databases on sportspeople and produces fleshier stubs which are accurate. I do think for the generic sportspeople which use sports reference type sources that might be a more productive way to do it, but it's got to be carefully planned so everybody is happy with the quality of information, and efficient to produce without causing problems.♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:58, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I stopped using a template, and never worked with programs as you assume. (bye the way you're also stating a link that was never in the article, but I understand what you mean). But I understand your point. But again, you are only saying that everything is wrong, even the method you are supporting. If I take a look at for instance the replies of Dr. Blofeld and MFriedman they come with better solutions. @Dr. Blofeld:, that would something realy great. Do you know how to create such a semi-automated tool or someone who I/we can ask? Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 15:42, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Content creation bots are very difficult to get approval on, that's the problem. They're seen as a negative thing on here since the US geo stubs were generated back in around 2004. I see them as necessary for subjects which have a lot of generic data which could be replicated, like sportspeople. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:45, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You stopped using a template and don't use programs? Then how do you explain this? In your drafts just know, you make the same error (mathces instead of matches) in four articles in a row. You correct it in three[44][45][46], but forget to change it in the fourth, [47]. You then again start creating articles, which all have the very same error([48][49][50]. So you can't be trusted to correct your errors adequately once you are aware of them, and you can't be trusted to correct your program or template to avoid the error in the future. This happens with simple things like this typo, this happens with important things like your refs. Fram (talk) 15:50, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I copy-pasted this (see below) and add all the data from sports reference. I saw that I typed matches wrong, and changed it alreay before (I saw) you mentioned it here.

{{Infobox handball biography |name = |image = |image_size = |caption = |fullname = |nickname = |nationality = {{flag|}} |birth_date = {{birth date||||df=y}} |birth_place = |death_date = <!--{{death date and age| | | ||||df=y}}--> |death_place = |height = |weight = |position = |currentclubs = |currentnumber = |years = ?-? |clubs = [[]] |nationalyears = ?-? |nationalteam = [[ national handball team|]] |nationalcaps(goals) = '''''' () | show-medals = | medaltemplates = |ntupdate= only during the [[Handball at the 1936 Summer Olympics|1936 Summer Olympics]] }} ''' ''' (born ) was a male [[handball]] player. He was a member of the [[ national handball team]]. He was part of the team at the [[Handball at the 1936 Summer Olympics|1936 Summer Olympics]], playing matches.<ref>{{cite web|title=Profile of |url=http://www.sports-reference.com/olympics/athletes/ /--1.html|work=[[Sports Reference]]|accessdate=8 December 2016}}</ref> On club level he played for [[]] in . ==References== <references/> {{Authority control}} {{DEFAULTSORT:, }} [[:Category: births]] [[:Category:Year of death missing]] [[:Category: male handball players]] [[:Category:Field handball players at the 1936 Summer Olympics]] [[:Category:Olympic handball players of ]] [[:Category:Place of birth missing (living people)]] {{-handball-bio-stub}} Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 16:20, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

So, you don't use a template but you then go on to show that you use this template which you then fill with some information. You note an error in your template, but don't correct it. And then you just happen to correct the errors after all minutes after I post about them here. Makes perfect sense... Fram (talk) 08:10, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose as per MFriedman. It would be a sorry state of affairs if an editor who wished to complain about the actions of an administrator should fear to do so because he was liable to get sanctioned himself. This has happened in this instance. Sander made a complaint and Fram made a counter-complaint which resulted in this proposal. Fram has a long history of "attacking" and trying to humiliate editors who he thinks are inferior. He tried to get me topic banned from DYK and now he is after Sander. In my case he proposed the ban to ArbCom two days before the workshop phase of the recent TRM case closed. Fortunately ArbCom was too sensible to adopt his proposal and the arbitrators here should act similarly and reject this proposal. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 16:57, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please keep your personal attacks to yourself. You started an ArbCom case about me which was utterly rejected by ArbCom, so apparently my actions aren't as atrocious as you describe them. I don't try to humiliate editors, I try to improve Wikipedia, and sometimes this means telling people that they either need to improve some aspects of their editing (for which I present examples), or stop doing those things. As for the boomerang effect, this is normal practice: when someone makes a complaint, people tend to look at both sides of the issue. In this case, many uninvolved editors recogniseed the problems, though not all agreed on the solution. And then there are some editors here with a Fram grudge, like you or Jaguar. Fram (talk) 08:10, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • I don't hold a grudge against you, or anyone. I actually don't. I just think banning Sander from creating articles doesn't seem like the way to go forward. More supervision is needed if his articles are still clad with errors. JAGUAR  12:14, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose per MFriedman mainly. I also agree with the reasoning from Dr. Blofeld and Cwmhiraeth. Banning Sander from creating articles in mainspace doesn't seem the way to go. JAGUAR  17:09, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose - Appreciate the work that Sander.v.Ginkel has been doing. The minor issues that come up can be addressed by making fairly easy edits to an article or merging content. Hmlarson (talk) 17:43, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is the tendency to create sloppy work that is worrying. Too many times Sander did not notice his mistakes of adding sources to BLPs that do not give any information. Too many times he does not see his mistakes when creating a "current squad"-template when the squad is in fact years old. In fact, his whole work should be checked... The Banner talk 22:34, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • Like MFriedman proposed is fair and I agree with it. I will create articles were at least the date of birth and the notability statement is listed. I didn't do that for the several footballers (have fixed them), and see that was really wrong. The other thing, I have asked you several times, but never got an answer, what do you mean with a "current squad"-template?
• Note I created User:Sander.v.Ginkel/drafts waiting for approval of drafts meeting N:OLYMPICS that needs to be "reviewed". Like Lugnuts alreay asked, Blackmane/Black Kite/Cavarrone (as you support my pages needs to be reviewed) who is going to review them? Fram are you going to move some to the main space, or are you only going through them, searching for some errors (as usual) and complain? Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 21:08, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I've watchlisted the page you've created and will certainly look at some of them, although I'm going to be at a wedding all day tomorrow. I think a lot of editors would also want you to just slow down your rate of creation and check through things before just putting them up. Blackmane (talk) 13:43, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Support - per nom and Fram. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:22, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Support Per Fram. Also, I think the canvassing issue should discussed further, as it's an abhorrent way of trying to gain an upper hand in a dispute like this and muddies the process. Any editor that responds here after being canvassed should be discounted from the consensus. Valeince (talk) 00:45, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Meh I prefer "SvG is prohibited from creating more than 1 new mainspace article in any 24 hour period". That will let any interested parties check that the new articles are up to standards. SvG can then receive further feedback/attention if there are still problems. 50.0.136.56 (talk) 22:48, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't be opposed to that idea. Blackmane (talk) 13:43, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose, but... I'm not a fan of the proposal as stated; it's a pretty harsh measure for a mostly productive editor, and nobody seems to have thought through who will do the work of reviewing all these drafts. That being said, though, I think SvG really needs to slow down his article writing and take more time and care in evaluating content and sources. He's written the 12th-most articles (excluding redirects) on Wikipedia despite only having been active since 2012, which is the sort of thing that looks impressive on its face but means he's churning out new articles unusually fast. While that doesn't have to be a bad thing (and I'd be a hypocrite if I had a problem with writing stubs on sportspeople and the like), and the occasional typo is to be expected from any editor, it seems clear that SvG's rate of article creation is tied to a high number of quality issues. I'd be more inclined to support a proposal that limited his rate of creating new articles (though I still think it'd be worth giving him a chance to improve first). (For full disclosure, I found out about this discussion because of this post; I'm commenting anyway, because I browse ANI regularly enough that I would've found it anyway.) TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 05:28, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• The "nobody seems to have thought through who will do the work of reviewing all these drafts" seems to be a false issue. We have the WP:AFC system for that, which already deals with the hundreds of articles which are created daily, I don't see why SvG's stubs (which because of their size are easy to evaluate and eventually correct) are supposed to have a fast track. The six month limit will give him, northeverless, enough time to comprehend and fix his mistakes, and to adopt a different, not-semi-atomated method to create articles. The fact that in spite of the current discussion recent SvG's articles still have heavy problems such as being based on false/unchecked sources is a clear sign the point was not taken. An article should be based on what a reliable source say, not the opposite, i.e. I will start an original research-full of mistake-stub and then I will append whatever unchecked source I can find to scrap a WP:BLPPROD deletion: I cannot see any possible compromise on this point, otherwise it would set a terrible precedent. Once SvG will show to have taken this point, the ban could be lifted. Cavarrone 07:24, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• AFC is typically backlogged for months, and it's a monstrous hassle to get an article through it, even a solid one that's sourced to the eyeballs. The last thing it needs is dozens (hundreds?) of sports stubs daily from one editor. Better to slow the creation of new useless stubs down and ask for substantial improvements to existing articles. 50.0.136.56 (talk) 09:09, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• I agree with 50.0.136.56 and also thinkg that AfC is not waiting for loasd of stubs every day. However I placed there the first bunch of articles. I think a contributor will deny them all, or after reading a few, moving them to the main space without probably checking the other ones propperly. When moving, it will also take them a lot of their valueable time as the ":" before the category has to be removed of every article and in the redirects the "Draft:" in the link has the be removed. And when not accepted, as they all meet N:SPORTS and are referenced they will be published sooner or later, as stubs of notable people are valuable for Wikipedia. I think a better solution it that I create the stubs direct in the main space without autopatroll, so the articles will be checked by many different users, it won't take them time to move them to the main space and I can also link them to Wikidata, create categories and add link the articles to places where a blue link is required. Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 10:20, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• I know the AFC timeline, and obviously if someone want to speedily review/suggest corrections/fix and move to the mainspace SvG's drafts is welcome, but this could not be an obligation for anyone. The point is that THERE IS NO RUSH to move inaccurate stubs with inappropriate sources to the mainspace. We are not supposed to apply a double standard compared to IP's and newbies' drafts, which are often better referenced and more accurate than these stubs, only because someone is a registred/regular editor and uses to create a stub per minute. In an ideal world, instead of opening a complaint at ANI or at least immediately later, an experienced and intelligent editor such SvG would had taken in account the suggestions/warnings he received from Fram and others, and significantly changed his way of creating articles, but considering the terrible stubs which were still created during the discussion I don't see this happening soon. If your point is that the reviews of the articles require too much time to the community, the alternative is setting a number-limit of new drafts per day, surely it could not be to allow flood of inaccurate articles with unchecked sources into the mainspace. Cavarrone 11:07, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• If you take a look at the articles I created, you calling terrible stubs, during this discussion you'll find out that they are well referenced and informative. Why are you calling it terrible stubs? Because I made a few errors in it which I noticed myself and fixed myself? Only the typly in the URL Fram said can be seen as a real error. However everybody makes these kind of mistakes. Even you. After taking a quick look at some random articles you created, I noticed that I see many articles without a webpage, so I can't check that information. But the few articles with a link as reference I saw has also serious issues. For instance: Luigi Tosi (only using a bare URL as reference) In the reference is not listed the date of birth that is in your article. If you got the information from the external link you're listing you had to put it in as a reference and you would have noticed that his date of death is not unknown. Or Glauco Mauri listing the wrong date of birth. You probably got that wrong date of birth from IMBd, like probably many info in your other stubs? But note that IMBD is often subject to incorrect speculation, rumor, and hoaxes and is therefore not reliable. And note that such a stub is even shorter compared to the stubs I created during this discussion. Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 12:00, 9 December 2016 (UTC)re[reply]

• Sander.v.Ginkel, instead of taking a "quick look", you should actually check the page history before accusing people. The only edit of Cavarrone at Luigi Tosi wasthis, the problems you mention were added by others. With Glauco Mauri, he only made these two edits:[51] and [52], so again none of the problems you mentioned were caused by Cavarrone. Fram (talk) 12:28, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Ah, Yes I see it now. I take it back, so sorry for accusing you. Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 14:05, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Yes in both cases I just created redirect pages which were expanded into stubs by the same editor (to be fair, I don't really think it was a quick look at random articles, it looks like you digged a lot in my history to find them!). This does not mean that me or Fram does not make errors. The point is that you cannot create articles in one minute or less using a pre-formed template without checking the sources, and not even verifying if the links work. When I want to create an article, I generally search for sources, and if and when I have found a couple of decent ones, then I create the article based on such sources, differently I renounce/wait. Otherwise I would had probably created 10,000 or 20,000 additional articles. Cavarrone 14:37, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Again sorry that I didn't notice that. I went to WM Fieldlaps listing your 1000 most recent articles. I clicked on about 10-15 old ones of which these two attracted my atention. I didn't do it as structured as by Fram. Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 18:18, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose as an AFC and NPP reviewer, please don't do this. It's far more work to review each article at AfC than at NPP. If you've already taken away his autopatrolled status (so that everything goes through NPF) that should be good enough. Bradv 18:07, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The purpose of WP:AFC is to help new editors who need assistance creating good quality articles, and to convince them to contribute to Wikipedia in a positive manner. AFC has a perpetual backlog, which means that many of these new editors don't get helped for a month or more. If we also have to police someone's automated additions (many of which are poor quality), that will adversely impact our ability to help new people. Special:NewPagesFeed is the place to review SvG's articles, not WP:AFC. Bradv 18:41, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that you created mistakes in the article Henry Oehler does not give me much confidence in your work there. The Banner talk 21:08, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As I explained on my talk page when you complained about it, the AFC tool adds the duplicate defaultsorts. In this case, it was because SvG put a space after the surname, (i.e. Oehler , Henry). Going forward (if these articles are going through AFC) it looks like we need to tell the AFC tool that the articles are not biographies so that they don't add the duplicate defaultsort and categories. Do you want to help, or are you content to sit there and criticize? Bradv 21:13, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment Re SvG: "they all meet N:SPORTS and are referenced they will be published sooner or later, as stubs of notable people are valuable for Wikipedia", I realize it's a matter of philosophy but some of us here don't see any use for such stubs, and see them as WP:KITTENS. See also WP:MASSCREATION since these look like script-assisted creations. If you think any of those sportspeople are notable enough to be the subject of a well-developed article, then writing even one such article is much more worthwhile than making more stubs. 50.0.136.56 (talk) 06:37, 10 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• I know some people don't like stubs. However I got the input from people at including Wikiproject Volleyball, Football, Women's football, Cycling, Olympics and Women's in red that these kind of stubs are appriciated. I'm not using a script for creating them, but if you could tell me how to get the data from for instance Sports Reference it would be appriciated, so I don't have to copy every single value manually. As WP:KITTENS States that stubs could be usefull it might be a good idea that we make some rules which kind of stubs are usefull and which are not. Wikipedia:MASSCREATION is about creating articles in a automated or semi automated way, so working with a bot and/or special software. However I'm creating manually and could never create as much as articles as when doing it in a (semi-)automated way. But as I'm spending a lot of time, I've created many articles. Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 11:35, 10 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I think it's an awful situation to have to Draft short stubs. Pointless. It places a massive burden in the queue for reviewers too. Going about this the wrong way. If you want to create new articles enmasse on sportspeople arrange for something to use multiple sources which write fleshier/accurate new entries and create them at a fast rate using a bot. There is a way that this could be done efficiently and accurately and significantly reduce the workload for all. Aymatth2 might have some comments.♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:22, 10 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Support. It sounds like SvG has been warned several times and is just not getting the message. Stubs are annoying to readers and often discourage creation of full-length articles. Inaccurate stubs about living people are as bad as it gets. Any article on a living person must be based entirely on reliable sources. The AfC reviewers can easily learn to skip the SvG stubs. Maybe other editors will start real articles on these notable people. Aymatth2 (talk) 14:31, 10 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose because this will destroy AfC without further restrictions. We simply don't have enough editors there to handle 50+ additional creations from a single editor per day. Unless this is heavily restricted, AfC will not keep up, and the reviews of articles by new editors will suffer as a result. The backlog is already over 1,000 drafts and rising. Six months of 50 additional creations per day would put us somewhere around a backlog of 10,000 articles. This cannot be done. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 22:37, 10 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Great point, BU Rob13. From a logistical view this seems like it could be a Baby-with-the-Bathwater proposal. LavaBaron (talk) 02:50, 11 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose #1 There is no way AfC can handle this. #2 A better way to deal with this is to force the editor to slow down (10 new articles per day?) and be more careful. I'll also note that the original complaint about Fram's behavior has some validity. Hobit (talk) 06:42, 11 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think your second point is a good observation, Hobit. I didn't want to mention it before in my original Oppose !Vote, as he recently expressed some frustration with me on my Talk page in a passionate series of posts, but I think it bears consideration. That said, I think we'd probably all be better off just closing the whole thread and moving on. LavaBaron (talk) 13:13, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Question As it's not the option to put my drafts in AfC, and nobody is willing to review the drafts I recently created, can I move the pages at User:Sander.v.Ginkel/drafts waiting for approval to the main space? As I'm not autoconfirmed anymore, they have to be automatically reviewed by Wikipedia users. Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 13:19, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Sander.v.Ginkel: Please do not do that. I am looking into creating a bot that will generate stubs from the sources you use like http://www.sports-reference.com/, but that will do the job accurately, and will make full use of the available data. Adding your partial, hand-written sub-stubs would just get in the way. A machine can do the job much better, and avoid wasting a whole lot of reviewer time. Aymatth2 (talk) 15:49, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Support as a minimum step given the severe, repeated, and pervasive BLP problems (criminal allegations with no basis or source) described in a later subsection. —David Eppstein (talk) 08:11, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Making from an exprienced and devoted editor a problem case

One of his main issues Fram has with me is that I created about 10-50 articles (out of the about 1000-1500 he screened) that the date of birth was not in the reference. As he furthermore lists every single tiny error in an article and says that everything is wrong, I was wondering how is own performances are. Well, to find some issues, I only had to go through a small amount of articles and can list already some results. I'm only listing main issues Fram had with me. I went to the last 50 (51-100) of the most 100 recent articles created by him, and focussed upon the the date of births/deaths of biographies. Out of the 40 articles I found issues in 20 of them. So in ~50% of his own pages he created has the errors he is heavily complaing about to me. If I would go through about 1000 of his articles, I will find prbably many, many more of such issues.

1. Pierdomenico Baccalario (revision), no date of birth listed in references. He said himself he copied content from Italian Wikipedia. He didn't check the year in the reference and also didn't use Template:Translated page
2. Valerius de Saedeleer (revision) No date of birth in references. Copied from Dutch Wikipedia(?)
3. William Henry James Weale Date of birth (8 March) not given in references. Could have been copied from Dutch Wikipedia(?)
4. Isabelle Errera 2nd reference refering not complete, 279 should be 279-280 where the date of births and death are listed. The 5th reference has not all the information as written in the section, for instance about the sculpted by Thomas Vinçotte.
5. Henri Kervyn de Lettenhove (revision) No year of death and birth given in references. And also 1st reference refering to a page without content about him (wrong page number)
6. Andrea di Cosimo (revision) As in reference born about 1490; died about 1554. In article born 1478, died 1548. Could have been copied from fr:Andrea di Cosimo(?)
7. Pedro García Ferrer (revision) with 1583 births and 1660 deaths, however no date of birth and date of death in reference. Name Pedro not in reference. Could have been copied from Spanish page
8. John of Westphalia (revision) states he died in 1498 but can not be found in the references
9. Camillo Gavasetti (revision) according to reference died in 1628 an no date of birth given. In article a date of birth is given and data of death is 1630.
10. Pierre-Marie Gault de Saint-Germain (revision) According to source born in 1754 in article 1752. No date of death in reference in article 1842.
11. Oliviero Gatti (revision) No year of birth and death in reference but article is stating 1579-1648. (Might have been copied from Italian Wikipedia).
12. Gaspare Gasparini (revision) No year of death in reference but in article 1590
13. Franz Gareis (revision) born in 1776 in reference, stated 1775 in article
14. José García Hidalgo (revision) according to reference born about 1656 in article 1646. No year of death in reference, in article 1719. Could have been copied from the Spanish Wikipedia(?) (Catalan WP is giving other years).
15. Carlo Garbieri (revision) No year of births and death given in reference while stating in article (ca. 1600-1649). Exactly the same as the Spanish Wikipedia
16. Cosimo Gamberucci (revision) No year of births and death given in reference, while in article (1562-1621). The same at Italian wiki (copied ?) while the French wiki is not sure about it.
17. Juan Galván Jiménez (revision) Year of birth in reference 1598 in article 1596. The same as the Spanish Wikipedia (copied?)
18. José Galofré y Coma (revision) Year of death in reference 1877, in article 1867. No date of birth in reference, while in article 1819. Same years as in Spanish Wikipedia (copied?)
19. Gaspare Galliari (revision) Year of birth in reference about 1760 an in article stating he was born in 1760. Also refering to other sources, while these sources are not even listed!
20. Bernardino Galliari (revision) Year of death in reference about 1794, but article is listing the year without the about.

An additional small note: most of the articles he created, the content is copied from [53], but from a book of>750 page, a page number would be appriciated in the references.

I don't want to say with this that Fram is a bad editor, not at all. No, I want to say that if you put effort in it, you can even make from an exprienced and devoted editor a problem case. And that's what Fram is doing. Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 18:59, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Nice try, but Fram is not the only editor to be critical about the quality of your work. What you now are doing is singling out one critic and hounding him to get him to shut up. The Banner talk 21:05, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

He is the user who listed every single error on my talk page in an unfriendly way. And because of him this discussion started. Probably many user got a prejudicie about me when they visited my talk page. And here I show that he makes the same mistakes. And it's here about reasoning not about opinions. You complained about 'current-team squad templates' above in this discussion, I asked again what you mean with it because I didn't create recently current team squad templates, but again I didn't receive an answer what you mean with it. Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 22:30, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Try not using the passive voice. "Because of him this discussion started" should read, "Because of his action I reported him here." Please take credit (or blame) for your own actions. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:45, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, Fram does not identify as male. {{Gender|Fram}} returns "they". Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:47, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I don't really mind how people address me, I often address people with the wrong or guessed gender here as well (not deliberately picking the wrong one of course). As for the above list, apart from the one I listed as being partially translated from another Wikipedia article, none of the others have any info taken from another Wikipedia article. All info comes from reliable sources, but not all sources are always listed (like I said at your talk page, in the "summary" section and elsewhere, having everything referenced is not a requirement). You claim that these are the kind of "errors" I complain about with your articles, but the above are not errors, but information with the source not listed. You added wrong sources, wrong information (e.g. men playing at a women's tournament, "former" international players at a December 2016 international tournament, wrong ages, and so on), ... Claiming that Tineke de Nooij was the first Dutch DJ was an error; what you listed above from my edits were not errors. Fram (talk) 08:51, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I added sources where the information was not as in the article. The data was correct in the articles, but was not always in the references. It's not that I'm adding wrong content to Wikipedia. As everybody will understand that a link with the women in stead of men for a men sportsperson can obviously be seen as a typo. That's not the case with the info in your articles, that have been copied also for instance from foreign Wikipedia's. Your articles are literally copies of a book that have 1 reference(that book) but includes year of birth that is not corresponding as in the reference. In that case you need to list the other reference! And in another case if you're talking about another reference, you should list it! And Tineke de Nooi is the first Dutch DJ. See for instance here and watch the RTL late night programm where she was honored for it. And note I created the article during the programm. That is what I call information with the source not listed. Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 13:35, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Tineke de Nooi is not the first Dutch DJ, she may have been the first Dutch woman to be a DJ but that's a different claim. This was already corrected in the article, I'm surprised you still defend that incorrect claim. My articles (from years ago, I stopped creating articles like that more than two years ago anyway) often had a different date of birth or death than the source listed because the source was old (public domain) and especially for things like those years was often simply wrong (since new research in the last 130 years had corrected these). My changes to these years were based on such sources (not on other Wikipedia versions). You have now added fact tags, so I will source these dates explicitly. Fram (talk) 14:09, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I note that now when you added sources, in most cases you changed the dates or years. So it doesn't look to my you did some proper investigation for changing the year of birth/death from the reference like you're saying above. And in the article José García Hidalgo where you didn't change the years after finding a reference you'r listing this as a source, of a single painting. But the painting is at the Museo del Prado. If you look at their website they have a full page about the painter, listing other years. And My changes to these years were based on such sources (not on other Wikipedia versions) is not convincing stating things like based partially on Italian article. Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 14:36, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As seen above I said about: "José Galofré y Coma (revision) Year of death in reference 1877, in article 1867. No date of birth in reference, while in article 1819. Same years as in Spanish Wikipedia (copied?)" Now you added this scource also staing 1877 as year of death, but you didn't change the year of death in the article! Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 14:46, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, that was stupid of me, thanks for checking it. Now corrected. Fram (talk) 14:56, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Sander, I've seen your work, which I think is frequently good but sometimes lacking. Fram is kind of a grumpster, but they usually have a point. Plus they have a ton of experience, and a really cool username. (Nothing wrong with yours--nice and Dutch--but it's not as powerful or concise.) The thing to do right now is probably to listen and see, or try to see objectively, what is or has been problematic and how you can take that criticism and improve. Few people will want to block/ban/whatever someone who is of good faith and is working on being even better. Lots of people will gladly get rid of someone who sounds like they're blaming others or can't handle criticism. The choice is yours; I hope you'll do the right thing and stick around. If I can help, let me know. I'll be happy to invent a reason to block Fram but it's going to cost you, in old-fashioned Dutch guilders and pepernoten. Drmies (talk) 02:02, 10 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fram is a brand of automotive oil filters here in the US. It's also Ferromagnetic RAM among other things, but that's more obscure and most people here would probably think of the oil filter. 50.0.136.56 (talk) 04:30, 10 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's funny how people who try hard to uphold standards in the face of ever-increasing sloppiness around here are always accused of being grumpy or snarky, and not precise and "to the point". The Rambling Man (talk) 11:59, 10 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • It is, isn't it! Drmies (talk) 03:09, 11 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Drmies: I'm taking care of his advice. I see I did made some bad mistakes. I also learned from it.I won't create an article with a source that is stating all the important info in the article. I'm also willing to work together with other people like Dr.Bofield said in working on even better stubs. Would be great to get such kind of a collaboration working on even better, and more accurate stubs. If people have input I'm really open to change. However Fram is not willing that I create better stubs, he is only willing to stop creating of them (by me) at all. In my opinion that is not the best way and constructive, even if people do make mistakes. Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 12:03, 10 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
      • @The Rambling Man: That is what I started with, and later heard from more editors. I'm not against the points of Fram, but he has serious and unprofessional communication problems when stating his problems. He is not constructive but only willing see people leaving in a bullying way.Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 12:08, 10 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
        • So... Fram's right and you're wrong, but you don't like the way Fram told you that. Next case. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:33, 10 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I have no opinion on this dispute, but administrator incivility is just as potentially actionable as any other complaint and I don't think it's helpful to suggest otherwise. Gatoclass (talk) 08:11, 11 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Apples and oranges. Admins should be civil, sure, I totally agree, but the point here is that the OP admits to being wrong, but really doesn't want to do anything about it, or suffer any sanction because of it, so the issue of whether Fram was uncivil or not is rather irrelevant, since they were correct. Maybe accuracy trumps delicacy. Still, if you think Fram went past the boundaryline, start a new section suggesting a sanction - I doubt it'll get very far. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:02, 11 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Fram is often right about errors, and from what I've seen rarely issues verbal attacks at people at least from what I've seen, he mostly plays by the book in terms of wiki conduct and that's part of the problem a lot of people have in dealing with him. Persisting with finding flaws in people's new article work or giving scathing reviews of DYKs is not a punishable offence on wikipedia, however irritating it can be to have to deal with it on the other end. I think the issue is more, when does genuine concern with article accuracy start to cross the line and become personal harassment/cyber bullying? And what is more important, editor retention or 100% accuracy in article work? Does Fram cross the line at times? And how would you measure when he does and make it a punishable action? It's one of these grey areas of wikipedia which are unlikely to ever properly be dealt with.♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:13, 11 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not accusing you of this, but to some people any online criticism of another person, however mild or justified, is automatically "cyber bullying", so the term has lost a great deal of its value, and is most useful in talking about the interactions of underage people, who are particularly apt to lack empathy or to overreact to criticism. I find it much less useful in discussing the interactions of adults, especially here, as any child who enters into the arena of editing Wikipedia should understand that they are most welcome to edit, but they are, after all, participating in an endeavor that is primarily meant for adults.

Now harassment, as defined here at WP:HARASSMENT is another matter, and is quite specific in its meaning, and, although I haven't looked into it to any great degree, I greatly doubt that anything Fram did qualified as harassment. Would I like to be at the other end of Fram's accusations? No, I would not. Would I take umbrage? Judging from my past, I probably would, but whether that has more to do with me or with Fram would be debatable, since it's a system with two parts, each of which contributes something. As they say, "it takes two to tango." Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:19, 11 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Fram recently left a series of, I guess I'd describe them as "very passionate", expressions of frustration with me on my Talk page and, while I agree with Gatoclass that administrator incivility should not be swept under the rug I tend to view it through the Drmies lens of mere grumpiness as opposed to incivility per se. In my case, Fram gave me a good ol' fashioned tongue lashin' like one might expect from one's grandfather; and, viewed in that light, I don't necessarily think it was uncivil and just noted it with an "oh Fram"! At the same time, I might appreciate how someone who was not familiar, as I am, with Fram's particular M.O. could think it uncivil. I guess the lesson here is to neutralize our interactions with each other to the greatest degree possible, realizing that we each draw from different experiences that shape the way we act and react to the rainbow of diversity we have on WP. I think a valuable lesson has been learned by everyone involved here. Maybe we should just close this whole thread and move on? LavaBaron (talk) 13:24, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing "very passionate" about these posts (a "series" of two posts, impressive!). Nothing really relevant for here either. Your dismissive attitude to every post you don't like, even when they indicate stupid errors on your part like in User talk:LavaBaron#Off the record, is well-known. Why we should just "close this whole thread" when a lot of people have supported a proposal for some action (a proposal not made by me, by the way) but which you happen to oppose, is not really clear. Fram (talk) 14:09, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry about my stupid erorrs! LavaBaron (talk) 14:23, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Or a much simpler and easier solution that I am sure everyone could get behind, would be that people who consistantly make errors over a period of time, listen to editors who actually know what they are doing and stop wasting their time. Only in death does duty end (talk) 13:37, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

No, I think closing the thread per WP:NOTPERFECT would be easier. (Also, not to nit-pick, but that's actually "consistently make errors" not "consistantly".) LavaBaron (talk) 13:51, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NOTPERFECT, close this, and if BLP issues continue, then bring it back here to waste another chunk of everyone's time. Again. Lugnuts ^{Precious bodily fluids} 13:43, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, another one who opposed the suggested sanctions and now just want to close the thread without action. Fram (talk) 14:09, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yep. What has this achieved? Nothing. All of SVG's submissions have gone through AfC and have been pushed into the mainspace. Sander.v.Ginkel - keep doing that if this thread is anything to go by. Give a load of extra work to AfC. Job done. Lugnuts ^{Precious bodily fluids} 14:33, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

And Fram, why saying another one who opposed the suggested sanctions as a reason while he never said he is oppose? Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 14:54, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

One can oppose without a bolded "oppose" of course. His comments are quite clear. Fram (talk) 14:58, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

So sum up the last 6/7 days of hijinks to show what "action" you would like, now the community have had their say on the matter. Lugnuts ^{Precious bodily fluids} 15:04, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"Hijinks"? Anyway, a speed restriction coupled with a requirement to have at least one source that is not a database-like entry but has some actual text about the subject. And definitely no more creations like Amani Rashad, an article about an Egyptian footballer which has links to a "website under construction" and the FIFA page for Rwanda. The same two uselsss sources are used for Hayam Abdul Hafeez, Sally Mansour, Ehssan Eid, Jihan Yahia, ... 26 articles, back to Rabiha Yala, all with the same two references not about any of them. Any proposal that may prevent the unchecked creation of similar series of articles would probably get my support. Fram (talk) 15:20, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Well that's again a statement you think. He has a critical question against the proposal, and I think good questions, however he also said Only if Blackmane is going to review each and every draft. Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 15:05, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I have started looking through that list, but I'm only on about 1-2 hrs a day, if that, so make of that what you will. Blackmane (talk) 02:26, 13 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"Making a problem case", or a real problem case?

I was just looking at some older articles Sander.v.Ginkel created (late October 2016, so not that old), and noted the 26 articles in a row about Egyptian women footballers sourced to a page about Rwanda. But then I came across Oluwatobiloba Windapo. The article claims that she is the same as Susana Angono Ondo Oyana, and that she (or her federation) changed her year of birth to let her compete in an u-20 competition while she was actually already 29 years old (!!). This is a serious allegation (probably criminal, and certainly something that may get her banned from the sport for a very long time), so it needs very, very good sources. Sander.v.Ginkel sources it to [54], which you label "CAF - Competitions - WWC-Q U20 2016 - Team Details - Player Details (Oluwatobiloba Windapo, as Susana Angono Ondo Oyana)". Looking at the page, I see information about Susana Angomo Ondo Oyana, but no information about her naturalization, previous name, previous date of birth, ... In fact, not a single link between the two players. I looked online, and apart from other Wikipedia articles and one comment by a random passerby in a comments section on a website (a comment which may or may not have been based on Wikipedia in the first place), I could not find any reference to this controversy.

You are writing things which could have a very serious impact on the life of these people. You need much, much better sourcing for this kind of thing, or omit it completely. I will now remove it from the article and delete the history per BLP, please indicate here where you based this "controversy" on. Fram (talk) 15:33, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

On second thoughts, I simply deleted the article, there is no evidence that the title / supposed subject of the article is even the same as the other person who played the international matches. I deleted it because serious BLP overrules "involved", but I invite all admins to check my deletion and change or overturn if needed. Fram (talk) 15:36, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As an admin, you probably shouldn't delete the article while you're involved in a content dispute. And if it's deleted for BLP violations, you shouldn't post the details of that violation here. Bradv 15:38, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

(EC)::Its actually quite rare BLP violations are completely expunged from the record (given the amount of them). Discussion of them is generally kept in BLPN archives and the article talkpage archives. Complete deletion only tends to occur when either the article & the talkpage are deleted, or the BLP issue is serious enough to justify oversight/revdel. And often then there are still descriptions hanging around at BLPN etc where people have been notified. Only in death does duty end (talk) 15:50, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• I'll be the grumpy one now. Bradv, there is no way in which Fram is INVOLVED with this article. And while I think that Fram could have been more sparing with the details, by the same token a. they are obviously couched in disclaimer terminology, not presented as fact as our article did and b. it is important in this public conversation that the extent of the BLP vio is clear--and let's be clear, it is a violation, and Sander better explain this; I may have to revisit my earlier comments based on their answer.

  Fram, I checked the article and the links (one of which a domain that's for sale), and I thank you for your due diligence. Drmies (talk) 15:45, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As an admin, I should delete any BLP violation, involved or not. And I post it here (a non-indexed page, contrary to the main page) so that Sander.v.Ginkel at least has an idea what he is being accused of. Stating "you created a BLP violation which I deleted" without any details wouldn't be fair towards him or any non-admin participating here. I'm looking further into this, and while I note that Equatorial Guinea has had an age scandal in women's football[55], this was about a different player, not about the one above or Ruth Sunday, where he made the same unsourced allegations. I'm now going to continue searching for more articles with the same problem. Fram (talk) 15:48, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I have not deleted or edited it as it is less outrageous, but Christelle Nyepel has some of the same problems. It claims that Christelle Nyepel (born 16 January 1995[56]) is the same as Véronica Nchama (born 10 July 1995[57]). Why? No idea, the article gives no source for the claim, and I can't confirm it online. Fram (talk) 16:03, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• I have. It's a scandal, apparently, and without evidence no one should be implicated in it. Fram, consider this: she's also listed on Wikipedia here, added by User:MonFrontieres without a shred of evidence that I can see. I don't know if mere inclusion is enough for revdeletion on BLP ground--but worse, I'm thinking that this entire list should be nuked. Even it's very first instance (this, by User:TheBigJagielka), contains a list of unverified names. I think these two editors have some explaining to do as well, and I'm going to place a BLP DS notice on their talk pages. Drmies (talk) 16:18, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The evidence above shows that Sander is an editor who starts thousands of stubs, often claims the information came from a source that does not even mention the subject, publishes incorrect and possibly harmful information about living people, and refuses to stop. Why wait for explanations? We should:

1. Block him permanently from Wikipedia so he does no further damage
2. Purge all the stubs he has created. Better to get rid of a lot of trivial stubs than to leave an unknown number of dangerous ones. Someone can later write a bot to copy the data – what the site really says – from http://www.sports-reference.com/ into Wikipedia

Is there any reason not to act at once? Aymatth2 (talk) 11:00, 13 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

We can at least wait to see if we get a good explanation once he resumes editing. If these deleted articles were based on solid sources which simply weren't included then there is less of a problem than if no such sources exist. Deleting all the articles is tempting (many of them are of limited or dubious notability and don't meet NSPORTS), simply redirecting them all to list articles (where most of them originate from) may be the better option for now. As for blocking, I think looking for other solutions is for the moment still preferable, but my opinion may change depending on his reaction (or other actions) of course. Fram (talk) 15:52, 13 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There can be no good explanation for an article about a living person with only one cited source, where that source does not mention the subject. Creating articles like that is utterly unacceptable. Yes, a lot of these trivial stubs may be accurate, but how many are time bombs? Get rid of them. Aymatth2 (talk) 16:39, 13 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I´ll explain everything. I agree that there can be no good explanation about it. But an honest explanation is the bext explenation I can give. It's not about all the stubs I created, but it's all about 1 (big) group of articles: the women's footballers. While creating the women´s footballers, I´ve made many sloppy errors, and as I see the statemt of Fram above I have to agree I made too many mistakes in references. I know this is unacceptable, but I now where I made the errors and I know how to solve it. Starting with the Egytian players, after having created footballers from Rwanda, I started creating footballers from Egypt. I got the data from this webpage. However I forgot the crucial thing to change the reference, and so the reference of the Rwanda was listed in all the Egytian articles. For me this was during my work a small error, however I see for Wikipedia it is a main problem. As I have on my computer exactly where I got the data from and how I published the articles, I can see where I made errors. As I made many sloppy errors that are main problems for Wikipedia, I'll go through all of the articles I created to see if I made more these kind of mistaktes. These are my mistakes, so I have to fix the errors I made. I think that's a better solution in stead of deleting all the women's football articles because 1) Only a small percentage of the pages have these issues, most of them are correct and it won't be a shame to see 2 months full time work seeing deleted including many good pages. 2) On the wrong pages the content is however correct, so it's about a wrong reference. 3) The footballers meet WP:NSPORTS, because they played at least 1 match for the national team. 4) the most imporant one, I can and will fix it. (see my proposal at the bottom). The other thing, the Equatoguinean footballers. I actully wondered that Equatorian Guinea was relative so good in football! However after reading some about the national team I saw that in history they made many naturalised players and also some scandals. It's common that the players who are naturalised get another. I saw that the above mentioned Nigerian players Tobilola Windapo and Ruth Sunday joined the Equatoguinean national team (for instance here and here. However in the occasions I looked at, I never saw their names on the official squad lists, in the matches they would have played. However I saw at Equatorial Guinea women's national football team that they played with another name. After reading some articles on the internet I became familair with the fact that this a common case for naturalized Equatoguinean footballers, and that it's the case for almost all naturalized Equatoguinean footballers. After seeing that there is even a special Wikipedia page about it List of naturalised Equatoguinean international football players I believed it. And that is the big mistake I made. As I believed it I literraly copied the statements about them from List of naturalised Equatoguinean international football players to their own pages and saw that the reference are about them. And now I see that I should have never done that. This information was added on 9 April 2016 and expanded with Ruth Sunday 16 August 2016. I also see it's the same user who is responsible for most of the content at that page and of the information at Equatorial Guinea women's national football team (9 April and 16 August. I will write him a message and ask where he got the information from. I was totally wrong by copying the information. I totally agree with that. But I think if there won't be sources that can verify the information User talk:MonFrontieres is the real problem case. The proposal I make is

1. ) I'll go through the ~2000 women's footballers pages I created and will check them for mistakes.
2. ) When creating new articles it must include a reference with the main information (name, date of birth, why being notable)
3. ) Always when creating articles I will double-check my references
4. ) If wanted, I can make a list of which kind of articles I'm planning to make
5. ) After I created the page I won't copy statements and data from other Wikipedia pages

To finish with, I agree with Aymatth2 that the errors I made, shouldn't be made, but I think fixing it is better than deleting it. The other thing I want to say is thank you Fram for saying to wait giving your opinion after I made my comments. I do realy appriciate that. Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 20:13, 13 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Equatorial Guinea Football Federation board directors usually "Equatorial Guineanize" foreign footballers when they called-up for their different national team categories (for men's and women's, seniors and youths), that includes to give to the "new Equatoguineans" an Equatorial Guinean passport with a national identity. They did it for all their national teams, especially in women's football, which they have got a limited quantity of good native players - they don't usually call up to the players of Equatorial Guinean descent who develop their careers in Spanish lower leagues (Spain being the country they became independents). It's a long story from more than a decade. For example. this happened in men's national team around May 2014, when they called Cameroonian defender Franklin Bama for the African Cup qualification but later at the moment of the match he was already Francisco Ondo.[58][59][60] Although Facebook and Twitter are not reliable sources, these express-naturalized players have accounts there, and actually Ruth Sunday is on Facebook and if you go to her profile you could see: "Ruth Sunday (Lucia Andeme)".[61] Meanwhile, Tobiloba Olanrewaju Windapo is on Twitter,[62] and her last tweet includes an Instagram link that if you follow it, you will arrive to the account of "Susan. O.O. Enny" (O.O. meaning Ondo Oyana, the fake names from Equatorial Guinea).[63] Equatorial Guinea FA works that. They want immediate results for their national teams either way.--MonFrontieres (talk) 21:10, 13 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for your explanation. Clearly a totally unacceptable use of hearsay, unreliable sources, and connect-the-dots to put BLP violations (no matter if they are true or false) on Wikipedia. I have contacted you on your user talk page and removed a number of other similar violations from view. Fram (talk) 09:00, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Sander's explanation is irrelevant. Creating thousands of articles on living people from dubious sources with bogus citations is utterly unacceptable. Any editor who has done this should be banned. All these stubs should be wiped out at once. How many people's careers do we want to risk so we can salvage a few months of sloppy work? One? Aymatth2 (talk) 23:04, 13 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Holy walls of text, Batman! I'll go through the ~2000 women's footballers pages I created and will check them for mistakes. Let's see, at 4/hr, 10hr/day, that will only take 50 days = 2 months. That's fast enough, of course. EEng 23:26, 13 December 2016 (UTC) Just kidding. Nuke 'em all. This is ridiculous.[reply]

• That reminds me of an editor, whose name escapes me for the moment, who created over 10,000 stubs on various small towns and settlements in China using a single source. The problem that editor had was they were using a source that was written in Chinese and they couldn't read the source, so they just sourced it to a menu page. The error rate was, according to their own words, about 20% and they hoped that other editors would be able to help fix the errors. The other problem was that they were creating stubs using a copy paste method and, if my memory serves me correctly, was running up 6 stubs per minute. The scale of the problem was so big, the Tsar Bomba had to be deployed. Blackmane (talk) 03:51, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• I believe this is the incident in question, for what it's worth. Not the only time in the past we've had to deal with someone creating a massive quantity of stubs with quality issues, either. (Darn sloppy stub creators, giving us good stub creators a bad name...) TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 05:26, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• 8000 stubs by Jaguar, and 2000 stubs by Dr. Blofeld, are the two largest such "delete them all" actions I'm aware of. I think there has been aremoval of thousands of bot-created articles in the distant past as well, but I don't quite know the details of that instance (if it ever happened), and it is less relevant here. But indeed, mass removal of stubs because a fair number of them had serious problems has been done in the past. In those two cases, it was a more defined series of stubs with one specific (sourcing) problem, while here we have a wider range of (sporting) stubs with a variety of problems, and with sometimes considerable additional edits by other editors afterwards (though many remain in their original state as well). Fram (talk) 09:00, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Something good did come out of it, though... JAGUAR  12:31, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• There is no time to check each stub for accuracy against the cited source, which would take months of tedious work. Turning them into redirects to lists would take more work. We would have to find the list and confirm they are in it and belong in it. But there is too much risk in leaving stubs that could wreck some poor athletes' careers. A good start would be to zap all articles that were started by Sander, cite no more than one source and are about living people. A lot of the zapped articles would be valid, but could be easily recreated from the single source if anyone felt like it. We could maybe use different criteria for a second pass. Once the mess was reduced to a few hundred it might be practical to review the remainder more carefully. Or just delete them all. Aymatth2 (talk) 13:13, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• The articles won't wreck the athletes career what you're afraid of. All of the doping cases I mentioned For the weightlifters were all proper referenced. I think As I have all the info on my computer I think I can create a list of the footballers with errors in references this week. I probably could have fix them within a week later. Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 17:37, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Minor errors can cause problems, which is why the rules for articles about living people are so strict. For example, a discrepancy between a job candidate's resume and their Wikipedia biography may make a potential employer hesitate. We know from spot-checks that there are a number of different types of problem. A careful independent review of these 18,000-odd stubs is not practical. Bulk deletion is the simplest approach. Very little information would be lost, since in most cases all the information in each stub is also in a table entry for the sporting event they competed in. Aymatth2 (talk) 20:15, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Can you list the problems of People who could not get their job due to my created articles Wikipedia!?!? I think People will get the job because the company will find he/she had a Wikipedia article and so is notable. As I can see from your reply, you didn't check the kind of stubs I created. I didn't hear things that can't be solved and that there are still prolems in loads of articles. Especially in the sentence most cases all the information in each stub is also in a table entry as it's not. What is that based upon? What about the weightlifters articles with all the data from all their competitions? What about those many orphan Olympians? Actually what about all the data I implemented in the Olympian articles? And if you think the articles are wrong and the lists are correct, did you check who created many of these lists? Yes, it was me. Let me solve the issue of the recent created footballers and come back. Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 21:46, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Sloppy, incorrect article can wreck Wikipedia. Athletes don't just play at the Olympics, as you suggest in your articles. Even now you are creating draft-articles with incorrect ages or incorrect dates of death. Really, you have to seriously upgrade the quality of your articles. The Banner talk 22:34, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• The ages were not incorrect. Like I said on my talk page they are all proper calculated with Template:death date and age, and they are all correct. I removed the redundant info as how old they should be by now, that information is not needed in the articles and I removed it. For the other things, these people only meet WP:NSPORTS because they competed at the Olympics. Almost all of the former Olympians who are created, are created in this way. To create such an article 1 reliable source is enough the start the article with. I tagged the articles as a stub, a definition of a stub is: A stub is an article that, although providing some useful information, is too short to provide encyclopedic coverage of a subject, and that is capable of expansion. But I you find some usefull information about the players with a reference, I invite you to add it to the drafts. Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 09:16, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Well, after I wrote my comment, I did end up remembering who was responsible for it and the outcome, but decided against naming names. And yes, Jaguar certainly proved their resilience to that mess, for which I must heartily commend them. I fear the ramifications of this incident, if not dealt with, may be dire. I started plowing through the list of drafts that SvG had placed in their userspace and the scale of the task is enormous. If SvG was restricted to a number of creations at a time, my original proposal further up might have been feasible, but I am beginning to think that I severely jumped the gun. Blackmane (talk) 01:31, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment If anyone remembers the Darius Dhlomo CCI a while back, DD had created around 10,000 sports stubs that turned out to have a lot of copyvios. After a long discussion, the decision was to deploy a bot that blanked the stub articles but left the history intact. Editors then were able to examine the archived revisions, restore the acceptable articles, and clean up the ones with too much copied text. I think that took place over a period of a few months. I myself don't see the use of these stubs at all, and would rather just put all the names into a "requested article" list with links to sources, but the Darius Dhlomo approach might be something to consider for those who can't bear the thought of deleting useless stubs. 50.0.136.56 (talk) 20:52, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Why are they "useless"? How many articles have you created? Oh, it's zero. So maybe you can come back and comment on that when you've made some content. Lugnuts ^{Precious bodily fluids} 09:12, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

To be precise, I can comment when I feel like it. 50.0.136.56 (talk) 09:47, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry to drag you away from your content building. Or whatever it is you do. Lugnuts ^{Precious bodily fluids} 12:08, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Extent of the problem

The blank-and-review approach would consume a huge amount of valuable editor time. From his pages created list we see user:Sander.v.Ginkel has started 18,323 namespace pages (excluding redirects). Articles from August 2015 and earlier were increasingly list-type articles about events rather than people. Sampling 1 article in 1,000 up to that time gives:

"DYK size" is a count of readable text characters that would count towards the 1,500-minimum needed for a "Did You Know" article. The articles on living athletes based on list-type sources typically come from an entry like (under heading "69 kg Men"):

16

VASILOPOULOS-KOUFOS Michail

13.07.1992

GRE

68.43

B

116

150

266

This is basically reproduced in a table in 2016 European Weightlifting Championships#Men's 69 kg. The stub puts some of the data into text form as "Michail Vasilopoulos-Koufos (born (1992-07-13)13 July 1992) is a Greek male weightlifter, who competed in the 69 kg category and represented Greece at international competitions. He competed at the 2016 European Weightlifting Championships.^[1]". It then repeats the 2016 European Weightlifting Championships#Men's 69 kg table entry. The stub does not add any information to Wikipedia. (It may be slightly inaccurate, since the source does not say he competed in any other international competitions.)

Sapana Sapana and Dylan Schmidt probably pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, since they have significant independent coverage. According to Wikipedia:Notability (sports) some of the other athletes are technically notable, while some are not. Olympics competitors are considered inherently notable, as are competitors in the World Artistic Gymnastics Championships, but competitors in the World Rhythmic Gymnastics Championships and the World Weightlifting Championships are not. Perhaps 2/3 of the stubs would fail an AfD challenge: the subjects are not inherently notable and very little has been written about them. I am NOT proposing to submit 10,000 articles for deletion. It would be crazy to waste that much time over stubs that only took a minute or two to create.

The primary concern must be the serious inaccuracies and bogus citations that have been found by spot-checks of some of the articles. We have no idea how many stubs have problems like that, but they have to go. The simplest first step will be to mass-delete all the Sander-stubs that are for living people and have just one source. Little if any information would be lost. Sapana Sapana and Dylan Schmidt would be kept, because they have more than one source. Then review the remainder manually if the list is not too huge. Aymatth2 (talk) 14:44, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This is totally crazy. In your research I didn't see you pointed any serious inaccuracies and bogus citations. So because of that you want to delete all the articles!?!? Rergarding to the info for for instance the weightlifters. Your concern: It may be slightly inaccurate, since the source does not say he competed in any other international competitions. Did you see that for instance for all the weightlifters at World Championships, all their results are listed? Including the data that was not in a seperate article, or list article you would say. So it adds a lot of informtion to Wikipedia. You say the articles can be created again in about 1-2 minutes per article. Well I think if you ask someone to do it, it will take much, much longer per article. Another point Wikipedia is not a database. So because of that, readers want the same information on different kind of pages, so it is not a reason to delete a page because that information can be found somewhere else on Wikipedia. Stubs are seen as valuable content, even if the information is already listed somewhere else. Your concern is that World Rhythmic Gymnastics Championships and the World Weightlifting Championships does not meet WP:NSPORTS. Due to a lack in the discussion on the talk page there, the Weightlifting and rhythmic gymnastics is not yet listed. As seen in the discussion there was reached consensus that the competitors at these world championships meets notability. Many, many people appriciate the stubs on Wikipedia. Many stubs have been already expanded, and data has been added to it. It's very likely many more of the articles I created will be expanded, as I see it on a daily basis on my watchlist! If there is a problem with a page, the page will be nominated for discussion at one day. Your statemet of Perhaps 2/3 of the stubs would fail an AfD challenge, but that's based upon nothing. Many of my articles have been in AfD, only one was deleted and not even obvious. That would mean 5-6 of the above listes articles would be deleted. That would never happen. We're not in a rush, so why deleting everything in a rush? Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 15:20, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sander, all it takes is one bad article that gets noticed for Wikipedia's reputation to suffer. That's exactly what the Seigenthaler incident was about. That article had a false allegation that the subject was involved in criminal activity, and it got publicized because somebody told the subject (a journalist) that there was bad content in his Wikipedia article and he wrote about it. You said something interesting just now: that people are seeing our articles, even ones on obscure subjects. Your experience proves that. Well, what if the wrong person had read one of the articles on the Equatorial Guinea players with the BLP violations mentioned above? It could very well have cost them a job, as others have said. By the time an issue like that receives attention, it's too late; the damage (whether to our reputation or the subject's life) is already done. This is the very essence of the BLP policy: we must be careful so that we do not harm living people. You must be much more careful in your editing, Sander. When people tell you to slow down, listen to them. They're not doing it just to annoy you; they want you to avoid making mistakes in your work. If slowing down means that you can't do as much in a day, just take it to mean that you'll have something to do tomorrow. Also, I don't see how there is a consensus here to change the sports notability guideline, as you seem to be the only one supporting that change. Giants2008 (Talk) 16:48, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• The 16 articles above do not have serious errors, but they are just 16 out of 16,000. They are sloppy, e.g. "Gilmar Teixeira ... is a former Brazilian male volleyball player." Do we know he no longer plays, perhaps in an over-40s league? But as pointed out earlier in this discussion, other stubs violated BLP guidelines so badly they had to be deleted. We must assume there are others. That is the reason to act fast. Better to drop a lot of trivial stubs than to keep some damaging ones. Aymatth2 (talk) 16:36, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Yes I understand. But you might understand I'm the one who knows best what content I created and if it was harmfull or with wrong content or not. On almost all articles I created I also check incoming links. Like you are stating for the water polo player I added if he/she competed at other competitions. These I added without reference because it is that obvious. If I started writing an extra sentence or section about the person, like when he/she is involved in a doping case I always listed a reference. If you want, I can list some examples. So actually when following the above procedure, if there would be harmful articles it must be articles with >1 reference. If I think about content that might be harmful might be the New Guneien footballers that are stated as naturalized people (I don't know if that is harmfull but that's the only thing I can think of in my articles). I'll list them tomorrow here as I have no time this evening, and if wrong they should be deleted. Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 19:06, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• If a reliable source says the footballers were naturalized there is no problem recording that information in Wikipedia, citing the source. But damage is often caused by errors that seem trivial, like saying she was born in 1956 instead of 1965. We have 16,000+ stubs with a very low level of confidence in any of them given the BLP violations and faked citations. Aymatth2 (talk) 02:20, 16 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• How about taking 1/3 of the articles in that table (say #1000, #4000, #7000 etc.) giving a total of 5 or 6 articles, and examining them carefully for significant errors. If the sampling above was random, the number of errors found in it would give a statistical estimate of how many are in the whole pile. Doing something like that with the Darius Dhlomo articles led to an estimate that around 10% of them had copyvios, which were then handled by a blank-and-review process. I think that was ok for the reviewers since they were the ones who wanted to keep the articles and thought reviewing them to preserve them was worthwhile. People who didn't think it was worth it didn't have to participate.

  Also regarding Gilmar Teixeira ... is a former Brazilian male volleyball player, even if we know that he doesn't still play: unless he has changed nationality or gender, it would be more precise to say he is a Brazilian male former volleyball player. 50.0.136.56 (talk) 23:01, 15 December 2016 (UTC) Added: if the 16 articles have been fact-checked and don't have serious errors then maybe this situation is not so bad. 50.0.136.56 (talk) 02:12, 16 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• I doubt a more careful review of this set would show up much. It is a random sample, but only a 0.1% sample. With most of these stubs all that is available online is one line in the source. Maybe Sports Reference is not the greatest, and the Bulgarian http://todor66.com/ seems to have shut down, but the data do not seem controversial. At least two of the 16 articles have wording problems and another includes unsourced data, but these are not huge problems even if they indicate a rather slipshod attitude.

The sense I get is that the author would find a web page or document like this one, and use it to churn out a few hundred stubs on subjects that might or might not be notable, but copied the source data with cut-and-paste accuracy. Then he would stray off the path, copy unsourced and damaging stuff from other wikis, and add fake citations to support it. Some of these have been found and deleted, but it is impossible to tell how many more there are. Which of them urgently need to be deleted? We cannot afford the huge effort needed to review all the stubs, they have so little value and the downside is so great ... Aymatth2 (talk) 02:09, 16 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, but I can't let this pass... The accuracy of an estimate, based on a sample, depends only on the absolute size of the sample, not on what % it is of the population. It is also a very bad idea to take every nth entry in a list. If you want to get an estimate for a Yes/No question to about +/- 7%, get a random sample of 50. Random. EEng 02:55, 16 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User:Keri and I have been involved in various content disputes on the page Generation Snowflake, mostly related to NPOV. My view is that the page is heavily slanted towards the narrative that millennials are coddled, over-sensitive, can't handle contrary opinions etc. Rather than discuss the matter civilly, Keri has persistently attacked me and accused me of bad faith.

In my very first interaction, I am accused of "POV pushing". Despite the fact that I have engaged in discussion, I am slapped with a template and reported for edit warring. Upon being advised by an admin to assume good faith, he says "As MaxBrowne clearly does not wish to engage in discussion - merely roll up, push POV, edit war to maintain it, then fuck off into the sunset again - that is not particularly helpful." - again a clear personal attack and assumption of bad faith. On being advised that no violation took place, he denies that my attempts at discussion were substantive with another offensive suggestion that my edits were disruptive and "pointy" just because I just because I substituted a NPOV template to cover the whole article, not just the lead. I noted this and reminded him yet again of AGF.

After more unpleasantness I advise them that I intend to disengage. They respond with further personal attacks. In reporting me for edit warring again, the incivility continues - I am accused of withdrawing "in a huff" and of "gaming the system", an accusation gratuitously repeated here. I made it clear at this point that I was fed up with this user's persistent personal attacks, assumptions of bad faith and battleground behaviour. However I was blocked for 3 days (reduced to 24 hours) for a technical 3RR violation while his incivility went unpunished.

After a post on the talk page in which I severely criticized one of the sources used, without engaging in discussion at all (unlike DynaGirl) they immediately attack me personally, accusing me of "clutching at straws" and "threatening" me with an article ban. This is followed by gloating at my block for 3RR. I then issued a final warning to cease the assumptions of bad faith and personal attacks. The response was "AGF is not a suicide pact", whatever that means.

Concerning the disputed source, having made no headway in my discussions with DynaGirl (Keri did not participate) I raised my concerns with the source at the Reliable Sources noticeboard. I was advised that the issue was related to NPOV rather than RS, as GQ is "considered a reliable source" (for how to match your shoes with your Armani suit maybe!). Accordingly I raised the issue at the NPOV noticeboard, and advised the users DynaGirl and Keri of it as required. Keri [80] responds with more snark and more bad faith accusations. No I'm not "asking the other parent", in fact the editors at RSN were helpful and for the most part agreed with my position, but advised that RSN was not the correct venue. Keri then makes a copypasta to both noticeboards [81] & ([82], clearly disruptive and hindering actual discussion of the issue involved.

This user has shown a consistent pattern of personalizing content disputes, personal attacks and assuming bad faith over the past two weeks, and has continued with this behaviour even after a final warning. This must stop. MaxBrowne (talk) 13:53, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@MaxBrown:Just out of interest, why have you listed this on 3 different noticeboards in the last 5 hours or so? You've brought this matter up at the Reliable Sources noticeboard, at the Neutral POV noticeboard, and now here. And there's the ongoing discussion at the article's Talk page. Couldn't things be solved there? Yintan  14:13, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This is concerned with the behaviour of the person concerned and is separate from the content dispute. MaxBrowne (talk) 14:19, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to wait for both sides to state their view on this before I can. I respect that Max feels personally attacked, and don't think it's my right to say whether they are or not. For a start, I think there are two actions to do away with – the use of "Fuck off" (by both users) and the templates. The former just doesn't get you anywhere, period. As for the latter, WP:DTTR, while merely an essay, does have good points, and templating just causes more animosity. Max, if you don't want to be templated, you might wish to put the {{DTM}} template on your talk page. I have it on mine. In fact, to be honest, it might be better to just stop leaving each other messages, for now, at least. As far as the actual dispute on the Generation Snowflake article is concerned, noticeboard threads might be making things worse, so maybe an RfC might be of use? Linguist ^Moi? Moi. 15:11, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

More snark, and an apparent refusal to respond when called to account for his behaviour. MaxBrowne (talk) 00:38, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Just to comment as I responded at the original RSN post (as did Masem who concurred) - GQ is reliable for the opinion of a GQ writer, which was how the content was cited and used in the article. *Should* the material be in the article was an UNDUE/NPOV issue, so asking at the NPOV noticeboard for further guidance should not be held against Max. Max, generally in cases like these its best to try and detach from interacting directly with the other party once you have brought it to the attention of other editors. Duck's back etc etc. Its clearly not forumshopping if people have pointed you to the relevant place. Give it a day or so for some more editors to opine at NPOV and go from there. Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:52, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The RS/NPOV stuff will no doubt sort itself out with more eyes. But the civility/assumption of bad faith stuff....this is what I'm raising on this board. MaxBrowne (talk) 12:46, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note:This case was twice archived by bot without being addressed. Adding this note to avoid that again. MaxBrowne (talk) 03:20, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Considering MaxBrowne keeps pulling this out of archives, I figured I’d comment as another editor on that page. In my experience, MaxBrowne is actually the disruptive force on the page. I’ve seen Keri express frustration with what comes across as WP:IDONTLIKEIT editing and I’ve seen Keri be blunt on the talk page, but Keri does not edit the article disruptively, while MaxBrowne’s edits to the article often do seem confrontational and aggressive. Max has suggested above that Keri filed a nuisance edit warring report on him, but this isn’t what occurred. MaxBrowne made at least 6 reverts to the Generation Snowflake article in 24hrs [83]. Additionally, I’ve seen Max make reverts with misleading or inaccurate edit summary, such as this one [84] which leads other editors to think he removed an external link when he actually removed an internal see also link. Also, Max seems to have a weird habit of manipulating the talk page comments of other users on various notice board entries regarding Generation Snowflake, via hatting the comments of others, which seems kind of disruptive. [85], [86], [87], [88]--DynaGirl (talk) 14:31, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Giorgi Balakhadze (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Virtually every time there's a discussion about Georgia-related articles with said user, mostly pertaining to Abkhazia and South Ossetia, he loses his temper, and resorts to using personal attacks and WP:BATTLEGROUND-loaded commentary. I initially decided not to report this matter when it happened for the first time, but to my amazement I noticed that once again, as of a few minutes ago, he couldn't refrain from doing so.

This is some of the material I'm talking about;

• "(...) maybe before your shameless intrigues you first talk to me a?"[89]
• "(...) so please have more dignity"[90]
• "(...) he tries to show me from the negative side and he lies ".[91]
• "Be sure Aragon if you continue behaving like this (POV based intrigues) and "throwing" to me dirty I will ask admins to review this case, to make special efforts and to call down your appetite in attempts to block me."[92]

Some earlier examples where he has used such commentary towards me;

• "You are lying".[93]
• "THIS ARTICLE IS ABOUT GEORGIA IN ITS INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED BORDERS AND EVERYONE MUST ADMIT THIS."[94]
• "Sorry but you need more knowledge to understand what means imagined lines".[95]
• "You won't afraid no one with this cheap pathos about sanctions and my "POV".[96]

I'm always open for discussion about whatever content-related matter, but this stuff should simply not be tolerated. - LouisAragon (talk) 03:34, 11 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry but it is you who started blaming me on something that do not exist, you have problem with me not me with you. And if I wrote something it has reason you try to show me from negative side and imaging such issues that do not exist. Posting them to other user's page and do not tagging me because you wanted to make everything hidden from my eyes. You claim that you are neutral but you have clear POV and special interest towards conflict regions of Georgia since you said "they do not belong to Georgia anymore" and etc. From the very begging of our clash I see your will to find something that will block me here, and then you will have all playground with no opposition. When someone says that 2+2 is 10, this is a lie or lack of knowledge or one specially says that for other reason (similar to intrigues). I see that you make intrigues with the hidden reason to block me and that is much more personal attack if so. --g. balaxaZe★ 08:56, 11 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I am sharing your all (to me hidden) discussion to let people know all aspects of the case ► User talk:Chipmunkdavis#Same_issue--g. balaxaZe★ 10:27, 11 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Support six-month TBAN on all articles related to Georgia, Russia, or any nation that borders Georgia or Russia - It seems like LouisAragon has a point. Editing in this area would be terrible if being subject to this type of constant shellacking. Giorgi has already been blocked once for edit warring on these articles. LavaBaron (talk) 13:44, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Sorry but those bans are to prevent people repeating same mistake, are we talking here abour edit-wars? No (there were no edit-wars again) we are talking about one user's POV-intrigues on another user's talk page against third one (against me) even not noticing me about discussion. Where is neutrality he blamed something that I do not do is this ok? Where is good faith? So he can blame me and I can't answer to that it was a lie? --g. balaxaZe★ 16:11, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Also that one day block was not because of POV or something else, but about reverting sockpuppet's contribution in the rule WP:EVADE (we also had discussion with admins) it was said that it is not necessary to revert those edits if material is worthwhile and our clash was due to this. LavaBaron claim "edit warring on these articles" is unsourced.--g. balaxaZe★ 21:32, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Adressing a few points;

• "Sorry but those bans are to prevent people repeating same mistake" -- Yeah, and one of the "mistakes" you're making over and over is losing your temper when talking to others, especially whenever its about Abkhazia/S. Ossetia.
• "No (there were no edit-wars again)" -- That's incorrect. We can clearly see that even after your 24hrs block due to edit-warring on the Georgia page dating to some months ago,[97] you were edit-warring again over the same content on 19 November 2016.[98]-[99]-[100].
• "he blamed something that I do not do" -- yeah, obviously we're all grasping at straws here, and all evidence is just actually fake (/end sarcasm).
• "Also that one day block was not because of POV or something else" -- wrong, again; it was exactly due to your "POV" (namely that the long-term sock abusers' content was "useful", and therfore had to be warred in) that resulted in the block. - LouisAragon (talk) 16:40, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You are mixing everything just for one goal to place me to negative side. Edit-war does not mean that you can't revert, when CMD reverted my images about landscape and not about conflict regions or etc his summary was not enough and well explained for me, same issue was with another revert when he just said that it was "pointy" after that I asked on his talk page for more explanations and somehow we've settled everything without rules violation. I am not a such person that if someone explain really neutrally that something is going wrong to do not understand that. What makes me angry is that instead of such talks you just make intrigues, behave like WP:WIKIHOUND and etc (because you are not interested in normal editing but just in blocking of me). Now about POV you like to show diffs so could you provide that material how was looking article before "sockpuppet's" edits and after your reverts? It was not about POV or something else it was about information. Then if you remember I started restoring history section (with some changes) and you reverted even that. And about "yeah, obviously we're all grasping at straws here" yes you are grasping at straws here. Can you answer to me why you hided that discussion on CMD talk page? Why you talked to CMD and not to admins? Why you started these intrigues? --g. balaxaZe★ 01:35, 16 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]