April 4[edit]

Is there any language with vowel reduction where reduced vowels can be long? --40bus (talk) 20:40, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This might be a contradiction in terms of vowel reduction, which is a property of stress timing. However, in the latter article, it is noted that stress timing and syllable timing are a continuum, so in something like Indian English you may, in some accents, see vowels that are lax in articulation (and reduced in stress-timed English varieties) but still almost as long as syllables with tense vowels. You may have to browse around a bit, say of Indo-Pakistani media, to find a suitable recording, if this would fit your definition. SamuelRiv (talk) 19:11, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

April 5[edit]

Why do we say "in (the year) 2024" or "in April", but "on the 5th (day of the month)" or "on Friday"? This is true in written as well as spoken English: something can happen "in" (but never "on") a year or a month, or it can happen "on" (but never "in") a specific calendar day. My question is: why do days get "on"? They are intervals. One would expect them to get "in". 2601:18A:C500:E830:E417:9481:2EF6:E7D (talk) 06:16, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just a guess (no reference, but someone might dig one up soon): Months and years are celestial: lunar and solar events occur above us and we are within the celestial sphere, but day events are terrestrial upon which we live. A bit of a tangent, but this query about being "in" reminds me of the prophetic song In the year 2525" written in 1969. I was only about nine years old then... Modocc (talk) 08:06, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a perceived precision about a single day as opposed to a longer period? There is a similar period v. point contrast between "in the hour before dawn" and "on the stroke of midnight". -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 12:43, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also you do something "at" a time. "I will clean the clock on Thursday at 12:32. I last cleaned the clock in March". Interestingly the words are used similarly for location. "I will be in London tomorrow. Meet me on Oxford Street, at the corner with Duke Street".

So it seems to be due to precision. In, meaning sometime/somewhere within, is least precise. On is more precise, good enough for many purposes. At is even more precise, for when an exact time/place is needed. --2A04:4A43:901F:FD76:D137:1356:B6C6:AD97 (talk) 12:55, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We also do things "in the night", "at night", "during the night", or "on the night of April 1st". Not sure what any of the explanations here have to do with any of it. Also, any naturalistic explanation can essentially be contradicted by the inevitably many counterexamples from other languages (or, as seen, from English itself). If all these idiomatic prepositional phrases originally descend from real metaphors of location, that origin's ancient and probably unrecoverable.

Browsing around for further reading, The Preposition Project is a repository for understanding English use cases for purposes of NLP. There's an interesting reddit thread which mentions that a chapter in Croft 2002 Typology and Universals covers the few correlations among languages in prepositions, but I haven't reviewed this. SamuelRiv (talk) 16:58, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I realize this comes off as a shower thought (because it probably is), but I just had an experience at my local market that made me question reality. All of this comes down to timing: I just so happened to be at the store right after a local farmer delivered limes that were picked off the tree that day. (I should add that citrus grows very well where I live, and the local industry has recently invested quite heavily into it after years of wondering what to grow after all the sugar and pineapple disappeared, so we are in the process of perfecting citrus crops of all kinds.) Anyway, I bought a few, thinking how lucky I was, and got home, washed them, and started slicing them up. Because I happened to buy them when they were just picked and ready for sale, I have to say, I have never seen or tasted a more perfect lime. Which got me to thinking, why are there so few words in English to describe the perfect thing, yet hundreds of ways to describe faults and defects? Is this just a quirk of English, or is this an extension of the negativity bias that has impacted the language itself? I came here only because I was unable to think of any words to describe what I experienced. It's as if it transcended language itself. Perhaps language cannot go where perfection resides? Viriditas (talk) 08:51, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

By the Anna Karenina principle there is only one kind of perfection, but an infinity of ways to miss the mark. Doug butler (talk) 10:26, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Thesaurus:flawless lists ten words with similar semantics. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 10:42, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In my part of the world, some commentators tend to say things like "most unique". I don't endorse such gruesomeness. HiLo48 (talk) 10:46, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Roget's Thesaurus (1953 ed) runs to 63 words/phrases for perfection (including all parts of speech), 86 for imperfection. A crude measure, as it includes many close concepts and colloquial phrases (for example, why does 'right as a trivet' denote perfection?) I was surprised not to find pristine listed under perfection. -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 12:37, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, "pristine" has more of feel of "unchanged from its origin" than "without flaw". At least to me.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 16:24, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's a sliding scale from 'the ne plus ultra of limes; to 'utterly contemptible specimen of citrus fruit' etc., there are plenty of comparatives in between. Take your pick, as it were. MinorProphet (talk) 22:29, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Rishi Sunak has said the behaviour of the Israel Defence Force in Israel is becoming "more intolerable." I don't really get the syntax of that. 2A00:23D0:443:BB01:EC7D:7F9E:B865:32A8 (talk) 15:13, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do you find "less tolerable" easier to parse? I think they should mean the same, but I agree that Sunak's version does smack of "more absolute". -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 16:46, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why are Qandil Mountains called Qandil? It comes from Qandil (Arabic: قنديل, romanized: qindīl, 'candle'). But is it because the mountains look like candles? Or is it related to Kandil? (tonight is Kadir Gecesi, that's why I got interested in this...) a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 20:54, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is it possible that the name actually comes from Kurdish, Persian or another local language, which coincidentally sounds something like 'Quandil', rather than Arabic which is not originally native to the region? Elsewhere it is a common phenomenon for a newly dominant language to re-render local names into something similar sounding but with a different meaning to the original. How old is the name? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 151.227.130.213 (talk) 07:28, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Kandil also comes from the same Arabic word. While the latter is usually romanized qindīl, there is a dialectal variant qandīl. In Kurmanji the word in the name of the mountains is the same word as used in a variant name of Berat Kandili: Şeva Qendîlê. So this is clearly of Arabic origin. The word قندیل (qandil) in Persian is a loanword from Arabic. It is also the name of a village in Iran (not near the Qandil Mountains).  --Lambiam 12:05, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So what were the mountains (or region) called prior to Arabic speakers being there? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 151.227.130.213 (talk) 20:21, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That information might not necessarily have been preserved. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 22:28, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

April 6[edit]

Quite an important issue to understand how 2 neighboring countries/peoples feel towards each other is if they understand each other. Wouldn't it make sense to make that a standard part of a template for articles on a country? Where is that discussed? Example:

• the {{Navboxes - (at the bottem of articles where you can click "show/ not show and then they flip out really relevant links to other articles) in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_language
• do not appear in the main article on Armenia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia#Languages
• the {{Navboxes at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_dialects

Thy, SvenAERTS (talk) 09:03, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is not a research question (which is what the Reference desk is for), but more an issue to discuss at the proposals section of the Wikipedia Village pump or (if people are monitoring the page) Template talk:Infobox language. Mutual intelligibility is not a binary quality, and high mutual intelligibility is not at all an indicator of mutual warm feelings, so there may be an issue whether such an addition is helpful.  --Lambiam 12:19, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In any country's article, those countries it borders are usually named and linked in the lede (first paragraph), so one can quickly open those articles and check their language demographics for the relevant languages(s). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 151.227.130.213 (talk) 20:27, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Was it oversight? It's quite a recent word as the species is from the 1950s. As the species resulted from "honey bees from Europe and southern Africa", why are they not "Europeanized bees"?

The similarity of descriptions of Africanized bees to stereotypes about black men, such as the word "killer bee" and the association with "[being] more defensive", "[that they] react to disturbances faster", "[that they] chase people further", killing humans and "victims receiving 10 times more stings" seem strong to be coincidental, but then again that doesn't prove the naming was racially motivated.

It seems likely, in any case, that media/societal narrative on "killer bees" was to a large extent fueled by (not intentional) racism following the label "Africanized bees", as well as the paralelism between mating of the fact that it is offspring of an European bee race and an African bee race and narrative on racism against interracial relationships. Wallby (talk) 11:12, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

They originated from an accidental release of a few African bee swarms spreading out and crossbreeding with local European honey bee colonies, rather than European honey bee swarms being introduced in local African bee colonies. In view of the originating event, the epithet Africanized seems more apt than Europeanized.  --Lambiam 12:30, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

According to the article, they're called "killer bees" due to their aggressiveness and potentially lethal attacks on animals including humans. Of course, maybe they have a reason to be as mad as hornets, if they were originally forced to take the back of the buzz. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:59, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Then there are the "murder hornets", with similar concerns about racism because they are also known as Asian giant hornets. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:06, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Such descriptions are (accurate) reflections of the geographical origins of the species or variety of insect concerned. Anyone who can derive racism towards other human ethnicities from them is so deficient in their thinking that no amount of pandering to them will likely have any effect. How far must we distort our descriptions of reality to allow for possible malicious interpretations by evil fools? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 151.227.130.213 (talk) 20:34, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

April 7[edit]

Hi all,

According to this website, this wadi in Libya: "Uádi Bu Tága is also known as Uadi Bu Taga, Uádi Bu Tága, Wadi Bu Taqah, Wādī Bū Ţāqah"

"Wādī Bū Ţāqah" looks to me like a good, or at least good enough Romanization of this place in Libya.

Could you possibly have a look into this, and identify what it actually is in Arabic?

Pete AU aka Shirt58 (talk) 🦘 10:28, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The name in Arabic is وادي ابو طاقة , it is mentioned here https://archive.org/stream/muajmmaark/muajmmaark_djvu.txt . With Romanization of Arabic there is always arbitrary choices, but Wadi Bu Taqah seems ok. The full name in MSA would be Wadi Abu Taqah. "Uadi" is rather an Italian Romanization. Taga instead of Taqah would be closer to local pronunciation. --Soman (talk) 10:45, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

like when someone says 'that was one of the x of all time' or 'that was definitely one of the x ever made' or 'of all the x I've seen, that was one of them'; is there a name for that? Will Hendrix (talk) 17:08, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Given that the qualityless superlative is a relatively new invention and only used for the somewhat-niche application of sarcastically subverting expectations, I don't think there is a unified name for it, but phrases like 'one of the x of all time' count as snowclones. GalacticShoe (talk) 18:42, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sadly, I very commonly see it in the ungrammatical form of "One of the greatest <singular noun> of all time", rather than the correct "One of the greatest <plural noun> of all time". The writers seem to be bamboozled by the word "one".-- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:26, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

certainly one of the misuse of all time GalacticShoe (talk) 21:46, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm working on Draft:Adelaide Bronti and came across this news article about, presumably, a theatre production she was in. But I don't know German and the OCR translation from the text is...not the best. Can anyone assist? I really just need to know what the name of the play was and, if mentioned, what her role was. Silverseren^C 17:23, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My best guess is that the play is called Vergeßt nicht Mr. Bowser ("Don't forget Mr. Bowser"), presumably written by the "Fory Mr. Bowser" Company themselves ("Fory" is an odd word). Ms. Bronti is lauded for her beautiful alto, a "well-cultivated, musical voice", her role is characterised as a starkgeistige Frau, a "strong-spirited woman", or maybe a "strong-willed woman"? No role name is given. --Wrongfilter (talk) 17:51, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you so much for your help! Silverseren^C 17:55, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Silver seren I think the play was "Foxy Mr. Bowser" based on newspapers.com hits.

translation

The "Foxy Mr. Bowser" company encompasses everything in the menu of theatrical farce, and the beautiful alto voice of Miss Adelaide Bronti wins and delights all theatergoers wherever this attraction appears. Her portrayal of a strong-spirited woman and her well-cultivated musical voice are admirable. Mr. Wills as the English professor, in his amusing manner as an ardent lover, and the singing and dancing soubrette, bring healthy, cheerful humor to the piece. As a great henpecked hero, Jesse A. Manola wins the audience's heart from the first appearance. He is gentle and humble like a lamb and witty and cunning like a Philadelphia lawyer. The entire attraction is excellent from beginning to the end. Don't forget Mr. Bowser at the Opera House, Saturday, March 16th.  --Lambiam 09:01, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is a similar English report in The Grand Island Independent Fri, Mar 15, 1907 Page 4 via newspapers.com. TSventon (talk) 18:21, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You're right about "Foxy" — in some Fraktur fonts, r and x are very similar, with the x having a little tail at the lower left, which is just about visible in the article scan. That may also be the title of the play, although I find the immediatly following "Company" a bit confusing. Well, it's Nebraska German, so there may be a few particularities. Can you please provide links to whatever you've found on newspapers.com? I don't seem to be allowed to use their search function, not even through wikipedia library... --Wrongfilter (talk) 18:56, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wrongfilter my link is this. I haven't registered to make clippings. The English article says "the company numbers some twenty people" and refers to "the Foxy Mr. Bowser orchestra", so I guess that " "Foxy Mr. Bowser" Company" is borrowed from English with the word company capitalised as a German noun. TSventon (talk) 19:18, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've clipped it for you here. Silverseren^C 19:25, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Incidentally, google sent me this article (which I can see) from Arkansas a couple of months later, might be useful. --Wrongfilter (talk) 19:41, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

April 8[edit]

I am not sure where to post this, so I will post it here. I was reading this article and saw that instead of "pursue", the article said "persue" which is the wrong spelling, but as I am a new user I cannot edit it. MushakuYT (talk) 16:25, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

MushakuYT, you could try Wikipedia:Help desk‎ with this kind of query. I have found and fixed three instances of "persue", but didn't find it in the article you linked. I left others which are part of older texts or followed by "sic". TSventon (talk) 16:42, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I skimmed through the article, and found at least one example of "peruse", which is a completely different word. It might be that you were just mistaken... 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 16:46, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes it was that, sorry. I was mistaken, I should have double checked before posting here. MushakuYT (talk) 16:50, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I will do that for any future problems like this, although now I just realised that it says "peruse" not "persue". Sorry, it was my mistake, not the article's. MushakuYT (talk) 16:50, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Normally, the obvious place to raise this question would be on the article's talk page. I was kind of surprised that the talk page is also semi'd. Too many children messing with it, apparently. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:43, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Peruse" is a somewhat obscure word to use in an article intended as a guide for new editors (not all of whom will be EFL speakers). Perhaps someone could change it to "read"? (I would if I could, but can't, because semi-protection). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 151.227.130.213 (talk) 20:59, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done. I might argue that a term like "survey" or "browse" would also work. But "read" is unambiguous. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:35, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My query regards this entry for bouche by Aristide Bruant and Léon de Bercy, particularly the use of gueule de bois and the example they provide:

⸺ BOUCHE PATEUSE à la suite de libations. Gueule de bois.

Oui, j* me suis soûlé comme un veau...
J'étais plein... rond comme un' barrique!
Bon Dieu! j' boirais ben un verr' d'eau,
J'ai la fTueui' sec comme un coup d' Irique. Ah ! c'est épatant c' qu'on boit, Ouand on a la gueul de bois.
(A. B. Les Souloloques d Honoré Constant.)

⸺ PASTY MOUTH following libations. Hangover.

Yes, I got drunk like a calf...
I was full... as round as a barrel!
Good God! I would drink a glass of water,
My head is as dry as a stroke of iron. Ah! It's amazing what we drink, when we have a hangover.
(A. B. Les Souloloques by Honoré Constant.)

I am trying to trace the origins of the painting title (not the metaphor itself) The Hangover (Gueule de Bois / La Buveuse), also known as The Drinker, by Henri de Toulouse-Lautrec. The sources say that Aristide Bruant gave it the title, but are somewhat obscure as to how and why. They point to Bruant's songs and lyrics, in one instance. I was able to find this slang dictionary that Bruant and Léon de Bercy published that mentions the "Les Souloloques d Honoré Constant", but searching for that only brings me back to the slang dictionary itself. Any ideas what "A. B. Les Souloloques by Honoré Constant" refers to here, and if it is referring to the lyrics of a song Bruant used to sing? Viriditas (talk) 21:39, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure if this helps, but I was able to find mention of someone named "Fortune Honore Constant Lagier de Vaugelas", who was apparently a writer of sorts in the mid-19th century. No idea if this is the same person. Viriditas (talk) 22:05, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's a pun. Soliloque = soliloquy , and Soul[ot] = drunk: SOULOloque. And "A. B." is for Aristide Bruant. - AldoSyrt (talk) 07:21, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! Do you think it's the lyrics to one of his songs? It certainly rhymes in French, so I'm guessing it's something he sung? Viriditas (talk) 08:33, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I find a reference here [[1]]. Search for "Constant". Honoré Constant, type de député ivrogne, paillard, socialiste et bon garçon... Honoré Constant, type of deputy, drunkard, bawdy, socialist and nice fellow. – AldoSyrt (talk) 07:59, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So, it sounds like "Honoré Constant" is a character he plays in the cabaret, correct? Viriditas (talk) 08:36, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here is the full poem "Gueule de Bois" by Bruant, which he published in his weekly newspaper La Lanterne de Bruant as part of the series "Les Souloloques d' Honoré Constant" and which he references in the Dictionnaire Français–Argot. It does not establish a connection to the painting. Which sources say that Bruant gave the painting this title?  --Lambiam 08:42, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are many, and I'm still in the process of collating the citations. The easiest example is of the Fogg Museum, the hosting institution that owns the painting: "Aristide Bruant, a cabaret owner, singer, and songwriter who exhibited Toulouse-Lautrec’s work in his establishment, gave this painting its title. Bruant’s songs were often about the condition of the urban poor and the theme of excessive drinking."[2] Keep in mind, this was not unusual. Toulouse-Latrec based several of his paintings on songs by Bruant, such as A Montrouge–Rosa La Rouge (1886-1887), a painting that depicts a fictional prostitute who lured men to their deaths (her pimp would kill them) that Bruant used to sing about. Also, Bruant would write and sing about these things at his cabaret Le Mirliton, while Toulouse-Latrec would patronize the club, go home, and then hire models to represent the characters he just heard Bruant sing about. Then, when the paintings were complete, Bruant would hang them on the walls of the club and presumably name them. This artistic process isn't so unusual; a lot of artists will see or listen to something and use that as a nucleus for creation. I've written about this process before in many other articles, such as Sky Above Clouds ("American classical composer Marga Richter based her Concerto No. 2, Landscapes of the Mind I for piano and orchestra on [O'Keeffe's painting]...'After seeing the paintings...I immediately went to the piano and wrote the opening of what became my piano concerto'") It's a very common type of inspiration. Given that the poem and the painting are both named "Gueule de Bois", I think that's a match. Furthermore, if I understand the provenance, Toulouse-Latrec basically abandoned the painting and left it with Bruant, although that's my own speculation based on what I've read about his other work. Toulouse-Latrec abandoned or gave away a lot of his early work. Viriditas (talk) 09:07, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

According to this source, Bruant bought Gueule de Bois for what was by then the permanent Lautrec exhibition at Le Mirliton.  --Lambiam 10:18, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 19:42, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, that's an odd account. Most of the art historians prior to that source say Bruant "borrowed" the paintings to exhibit at his club. Sweetman in 1999 says that Bruant commissioned them. He doesn't cite any sources. In a extensively researched 1979 exhibition cataglog, Naomi E. Maurer writes "Lautrec first exhibited publicly in 1886, when Aristide Bruant began to borrow pictures to decorate his cabaret Le Mirleton on the boulevard Rochechouart". Maurer goes on to describe several of the paintings as "gifts" to Bruant. It's certainly possible that both are correct. I'm looking at Dortu's 1971 catalogue raisonné now for details. I do recall reading differing accounts on Toulouse-Lautrec's finances. It seems he had plenty of cash so there was no need to sell the works to Bruant, but another source says his finances were getting stretched at some unknown date because his family was squeezing him out of his inheritance (via property sales, IIRC). Viriditas (talk) 21:06, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Update: Henri de Toulouse-Lautrec catalogue raisonné, 1986 Sugana. Viriditas (talk) 21:25, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There's so many discrepancies in 1986 Sugana, I'm not even sure it's usable anymore. I suppose the literature has changed a great deal since 1986. Viriditas (talk) 21:46, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Brief follow-up question that goes beyond language: Has all the music behind these lyrics been lost? Has anyone tried to recreate these songs? Viriditas (talk) 09:14, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently, not all is lost. See also these.  --Lambiam 10:24, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's "gueul' sec" ("dry gob"), not "fTueui' sec". I had to look it up since fTueui' looked suspicious, even as a slang term. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 11:23, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, encoding error. Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 19:43, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

April 9[edit]

What's the intent when Richard Carrier talks about "the Jesus"? As in "Why invent the Jesus?" (Title of one of his videos) What would that imply to a native English speaker? Is it an ellipsis of "the Jesus [thing]"? Is "the Jesus" meant to refer to the story or to the person? Any other talk of "the Jesus" out there from other people (who are English speakers)?

Clearly this is different from say "the Donald" that is funny but that originated with Ivana Trump, who possibly didn't even realize she was being humorous. I don't know if that had anything to do with the Czech language but I do know that in some languages (like Greek) personal names do normally take the definite article (when you're referring to the person, not when you're adressing them).

In French-speaking Belgium (and possibly in some other peripheral varieties of French), where using the definite article with a personal name is not at all common, talking about "le François" implies that you do not think much of that François (at least not in the context of what it is you're telling about him at that moment). It also has a slightly rustic flavor. I think German too may have something similar.

178.51.93.5 (talk) 17:10, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe watching the video might clarify? <-Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots-> 17:40, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think I've heard that usage in English ("the Jesus" as a complete noun phrase, as opposed to cases such as "the Jesus Freak movement"), but in the original ancient Greek of the New Testament, names were preceded by definite articles in various contexts. Just flipping randomly through my Greek Testament, I noticed ho Iesous in verses Matthew 8:18 and 8:20, and ho de Iesous (article and name separated by a particle) in 8:22... AnonMoos (talk) 17:45, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

One possible reason is that the first page of a search for "Why invent the Jesus?" online just finds Richard Carrier's video and discussion of it, while "Why invent Jesus?" also finds some other discussions. TSventon (talk) 18:03, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just a clarification on Czech. Like most Slavic languages, it does not have any definite (the) or indefinite articles (a, an). Slavic speakers new to English must learn when to use each type, and mistakes like: adding an article where it's not required ("the Donald"); or omitting an article where it is required ("Cat sat on mat"); or using the definite where the indefinite is required, or vice-versa, are common. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:10, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It seems that Carrier doesn't believe there was actually a Jesus, so it might be sarcasm of a sort. However, the more obvious way to say it would be "the Christ", especially as "Jesus" as a name is not unique in history. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:39, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Christ" isn't either. Here's just one of a bunch of Christs. -- Hoary (talk) 12:57, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"The Christ" is valid usage. See Christ (title). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:42, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Technically, every Israelite and Judean King was a 'Christ', this being a Greek translation of Hebrew 'Messiah' (various spellings) meaning "anointed one". High Priests were also anointed and could be referred to as a 'Messiah'.

In the first century many Jews did not believe the Herodian monarchs were legitimate, since they were of non-Hebrew origin and not descended from King David. It was hoped that a legitimate Davidic heir would supplant them (and expel the Romans), and the appearance of "The (forthcoming, legitimate) Messiah" was hoped for. It appears that the historical "Jesus" (Jeshua of Nazareth, aka Jeshua bar Yussuf, aka Jeshua bar Maryam, aka Jeshua' bar Pantera) was believed by some and came to believe himself that he was destined to be "The Messiah" in that sense. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 151.227.145.123 (talk) 14:42, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's rather unfortunate that "Jeshua bar Yussuf"[sic] consists of three words in three languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, and Arabic), while "Pantera"[sic] drags in a fourth, since it's based on a Greek-language pun between the words Panther and Parthenos (kind of a dumb pun, since Panther has an eta while Parthenos has an epsilon). The 1st century A.D. Hebrew form of his name was almost certainly Yēšūʕ (also borrowed into the Aramaic of the time), which did not have an "a" vowel as such, but did have a pharyngeal consonant. This was the commonly-used late centuries B.C. / 1st century A.D. shortened form of the name "Joshua"... AnonMoos (talk) 22:41, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I was a bit careless with the names as it wasn't the main thrust, and initially indicated the closing pharyngeal consonant in question and then removed it as confusing to the readership, though I missed the last one.

Unfortunately, unlike yourself I am not a scholar of the languages involved, and rely on the English-language writings and lectures of those who are familiar with the Aramaic, Hebrew and Koine Greek that the protagonists all likely spoke.

I question the 'Parthenos' pun element, since there is some evidence that the Greek-derived "Pant(h)era" was a name used (though rarely, but there is an unconnected 1st-century Jewish ossuary with it) by Jews of the era, and the 'virgin' element was a subsequent introduction to the later-burgeoning myth. The individual in question was (I think) likely that person named on his memorial in Latin as (Tiberius Julius) Abdes Pantera, and I understand a Talmudic passage states (rightly or not) that the name Pantera was one used in Mary's family.

As to the Principal of the events, the Talpiot tomb inscription on his ossuary is transliterated in that article as "Yeshua bar Yehosef" and in The Jesus Family Tomb as "Y'shua bar Yosef – Aramaic for "Jesus son of Joseph"" (and his mother's, "Maria – written in Aramaic script, but a Latin form of the Hebrew name "Miriam" ("Mary")"). Feel free to give us your more authentic renderings of the other descriptors I mentioned above. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 151.227.145.123 (talk) 08:25, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera seems to be a highly-historical individual, but no-one would have ever thought to connect him, or any person with his name, to Jesus, except by means of a pun between the Greek words Panthēr and Parthenos which was rather far-fetched even in the 2nd-century A.D. when the anti-Christian author Celsus first wrote the Pantera narrative down, while serious scholars without an axe to grind would now consider it rather ridiculous (paragraphs in the body of the Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera article say much the same thing, if you read down far enough)... AnonMoos (talk) 17:17, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have long since read the article thoroughly, and disagree with those conclusions, having studied the books and lectures of other scholars who take different views. However, let's not discuss this further here as it is rather beside the point of the original query. You may have correctly inferred that in these matters I discount any and all claimed supernatural elements as non-factual, whereas I suspect you do not, so we are unlikely to reach mutual agreement. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 151.227.134.31 (talk) 16:19, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you believe everything written by opponents of Christianity, then you no doubt believe that Christians worshipped a crucified donkey, based on the Alexamenos graffito. And that's not even getting into modern pseudo-literature, such as The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross and The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors. Good luck in your endeavors. AnonMoos (talk) 20:54, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, I do not (and in fact reject the concept of "belief" as a useful mental approach in any sphere), but neither do I accept as factual much of what early ex-pagan, Rome-friendly "Christian" converts concocted 4–10 decades after the actual events, inspired by the supposed 'vision' of a somewhat unstable individual who by even his own testimony was in ongoing contention with Jesus' actual family and personal follower. I am not and do not support "enemies of Christianity" any more that I support enemies of Hinduism, Jainism, Shinto, Asatruism or any other religion, which are all interesting factors in human cultural history, without having to be "true" in their supernatural aspects. I am however an intellectual enemy of those who promulgate provably inaccurate 'facts'.

I read TSMatC when it was first published, and found it amusing but unconvincing. Some general ideas in it (such as the use of perception-altering substances in various ancient religions) likely have some value, but contrary to Allegro's suggestion I do think Yeshua/Iesos/Jesus was a real historical figure, as I already stated earlier in this very thread.

I have no "endeavors" other than to try to discover, largely for my own interest, what actually happened in historical terms, or what at least most plausibly happened in the absence of direct evidence. The beliefs of those involved (including Jesus himself) in supernatural entities and supposed "prophecies" are factors in doing so; acceptance of those entities and prophecies as real and genuine is not. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 151.227.134.31 (talk) 00:36, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I’d assume it’s a reference to the character from The Big Lebowski who refers to himself as “The Jesus”. —Amble (talk) 06:04, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See also The Jesus Rolls.  --Lambiam 11:04, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

first of all Due my request I am trying to start a initiative to create an separate article on the clan system follow under Jatt community based on Reliable sources Khalsajudicary (talk) 18:12, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If the creation of an article on a given subject is a good idea, then the experienced, well-informed, careful editor doesn't start an initiative to create the article, they instead create the article. But why should that editor not augment the existing Jat Sikh#Clans? Also, you have just four days' experience of editing articles (and your most recent edit has an edit summary that's bizarre, to put it mildly): I suggest that for a month or so, until you're more experienced, you avoid the area of clans and castes as it tends to attract people keen to air their grievances and to "right great wrongs". -- Hoary (talk) 12:51, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You also need to learn about reliable sources before editing in that area. User generated sources - such as most Wikis - are not regarded as reliable, and may not be cited in a Wikipedia article. (And yes, that does apply to Wikipedia itself, as well as to Sikhiwiki). ColinFine (talk) 22:08, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

April 11[edit]

Is there a general name for the process of creating words like "çocuk mocuk", "para mara", "kitap mitap", "adam madam", "eski meski", etc. in Turkish? (more details here, it's word + m- + [remove first consonant] + word) Does it exist in other languages? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 08:20, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See Shm-reduplication and Echo word. --147.142.246.75 (talk) 08:25, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Or maybe Reduplication#Turkish. Alansplodge (talk) 09:51, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks a lot! a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 10:50, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also found in informal Modern Greek, e.g. ταψιά μαψιά (tapsiá mapsiá) "oven pans and such". As in Turkish, this echo reduplication can also be used with verbs: γκρίνιαζες μίνιαζες (gríniazes míniazes) "you whined and such". It seems likely that the feature, also using the ⟨m-⟩ substitution, was borrowed from Turkish.  --Lambiam 15:27, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I didn't know that Greek used ταψί (Turkish tepsi). Is this echo replication structure also used in other Turkic languages? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 18:49, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Azerbaijani does, for example "böcək möcək".  --Lambiam 01:26, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Just heard DJ MJ [diːdʒeɪ miːdʒeɪ] so it can really be used with any word... a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 08:53, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I guess it would be spelled "meejay" or similar in English, though. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 12:54, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it can be used with any word mord :) not already starting with ⟨m-⟩ (so you cannot use this with "muvaffakiyetsizleştiricileştiriveremeyebileceklerimizdenmişsinizcesine"). For example, one can also use "hayır mayır" and "yok mok" when reporting implicit denials.  --Lambiam 14:09, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What about words already starting with m-? I can initially imagine a "triduplicated" form like "m- mem-", although such forms might not be used in practice. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 15:10, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The feature is simply not available. Using "lacivert" for the colour (navy) blue, you can say "lacivert macivert". But when using the less specific colour name "mavi" for blue and you want to say "blue or such", you have to say something like "mavi falan filan". Or you can say "mavimtrak", using a suffix "-mtrak" meaning as much as "-ish".  --Lambiam 14:53, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any difference between "mavimtırak" and "mavimsi" btw? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 15:40, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I'm aware they are interchangeable, and both are fairly common. I'm not a native speaker, though.  --Lambiam 21:49, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

April 13[edit]

Recently I wrote the sentence:

A: I'm not sure if this will fix your problem or not, but it's worth a try.

But then I read it over again and it seemed "off" to me, so I changed it to:

B: I'm not sure whether this will fix your problem or not, but it's worth a try.

Is sentence A grammatically correct? Is sentence B grammatically correct? Is one preferred over the other or are they both acceptable? OptoFidelty (talk) 17:40, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A is descriptively correct, in that "if" is commonly used in this case even though the textbooks say to use "whether". B is correct, both descriptively and prescriptively.

Be like me and use B, and you'll have that inner glow that religion is powerless to bestow. (Apologies to Miss C. F. Forbes (1817-1911)) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 18:52, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like "if" is winning out over "whether".^[3] Even more common is to omit the conjunction ("I'm not sure this will fix your problem or not, but it's worth a try.").^[4] The part "or not" is IMO redundant; whether to use this (or not) seems a matter of taste, but I get more GBS hits for just "not sure this will help but" than for "not sure this will help or not, but".  --Lambiam 21:41, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting that you use "whether" in a very similar construction: whether to use this (or not) seems a matter of taste. You certainly cannot use "if" there. Nor could you use it in a variation of option B: Whether this will fix your problem or not, I'm not sure. The "if" is only available in the original word sequence, as per option A. "Whether" is like the universal donor; "if" would kill certain transfusees, as it were. Why risk it? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 05:02, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is also a matter of one's taste whether one prefers an inner or an outer glow – or perhaps no glow at all, but merely an inward tranquillity which linguistic prescription is powerless to disturb.  --Lambiam 10:59, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

April 16[edit]

Can I use a pronoun in a sentence before I introduce its antecedent? For example, is something like “Because of her attitude, many people dislike the club president” permitted? If so, what are the restrictions on this usage? Primal Groudon (talk) 02:23, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Examples are legion throughout the literature, and your example is fine.

The trick is not to fall into the trap of stranding the connected parts. If your example had been: "Because of her prejudice, Mary dislikes the club president", it might at first glance seem to be saying that Mary is the one with the prejudice, but you may have meant the club president (assuming she was female). -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 02:36, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. This is called cataphora, while the more common backreferencing is anaphora. --Theurgist (talk) 02:49, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Notice that in most examples, the pronoun is in a subordinate clause preceding the main clause of the sentence. AnonMoos (talk) 15:09, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It could be in the main clause, though. "Her height contributed to Alta's success at basketball." (But not "Her height led Victoria to select Alta", which is ambiguous.) --142.112.220.50 (talk) 22:41, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

True, but it's kind of a variation on a theme -- the pronoun "her" is embedded inside the subject of the main clause, but is not itself the subject of the main clause. AnonMoos (talk) 20:31, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

April 18[edit]